You can slow them down all you like, they will still rule melee group fights
I agree with Joxer. If someone manages to beat you 1on1 with apikelong spear, you're just bad.
TRUE PROBLEM: N00BZ0RZ
TRUE PROBLEM: LACKING PIKE OVERHEAD THRUST
I agree with Joxer. If someone manages to beat you 1on1 with apikelong spear, you're just bad.
AFAIK, weapon length affects movement speed - thus, pikemen have slower movement speed than other people.
Ability to jump 5 meters away, stab at point blank range, twohit anyone, onehit to face, stab twice in 3 seconds... yeah sometimes it makes me wonder..
As a longspear user, the only problem I currently see with the weapon is that the overhead goes through friendlies and can still hit enemies, through them. I only overhead when its necessary and it makes me sad to see people running around with a group using only the overhead so they can rack up the kills with no risk of hitting a team mate. Other than that, if you lose to a pikeman 1v1 or 1v3(pike is the 1), you were bested with skill as all you need to do is downblock until you hear the clank of the blocked spear... then you get your shot!
Just because a few people are very good with certain weps, doesn't mean the weps are OP.
With my 8 PS polearm alt I was onehitting with long spear as often as not :D
If he dont use exploits sure, but wait ... .
And yet it's totally possible to run a 12/27, 4 PS, 9 Athletics, 9 WM, 170+ wpf long spear build. I doubt the length penalty will counterbalance 9 athletics.I had a 9/30 long spear char once, it was god-awful. And yeah, it does counterbalance 9 or even 10 athlethics, not to mention that you glance constantly with 3 PS when being facehugged.
A) I dont use a pike. B) I never used spin thrusts. ...
Just get rid of longspear. It was a stupid idea to begin with. Did the devs just decide to ignore the bambooo stick to give themselves something else to nerf cav with? Its really obnoxious weapon and I personally wont stop questing on yon forums till its existence is wiped from this middle earth. In the meantime the lolstabs of terror will continue.
I had a 9/30 long spear char once, it was god-awful. And yeah, it does counterbalance 9 or even 10 athlethics, not to mention that you glance constantly with 3 PS when being facehugged.
Aww, great short time memory.
I don't believe you ran a 9/30 with a long spear with the change to armor (which reduces glances by a ton)... since the long spear requires 11 strength to use.
I did use pike when it was still a pike ages ago. Since I retired I havent touched it. Reading comprehension problems much? Also I never did use spinthrust. I never bothered to even try. I always used back and worth movements when piking.Thats nitpicking. I can not prove the spinthrust, but i thing you stabbed me a few times at point blank range.
Its funny when I try to stab someone with a 1h sword and it bounces off because I'm too close, but a pike or long spear at the same range will hit for some reason.No, you can do the exact same thing with a 1her, not to mention 2h weapons.
Not subject to the same collision rules as 1h weapons.
I don't believe you ran a 9/30 with a long spear with the change to armor (which reduces glances by a ton)... since the long spear requires 11 strength to use.Yeah, that was a patch or two ago. Still, not even a 12/27 build will let you keep your distance with a long spear and it will glance/do negligible damage at facehugging range, at least when you're trying to avoid getting spammed.
Make pikes/long spears 3 slots and maybe buff the stats a bit, then only dedicated pikemen can use them instead of everyone with a bit of sense.Considering everything other people are suggesting is either not possible or wouldn't fix anything -- I like this.
Make pikes/long spears 3 slots and maybe buff the stats a bit, then only dedicated pikemen can use them instead of everyone with a bit of sense.
Doesnt fix anything. The point is to force the pikeman to drop his weapon when enemy is close and stop exploiting with lolstab, not to force him to actually use his pike all the time.This suggestion quite frankly sickens me.
3 slot pike/longspear + no blocking sounds okay.
Facehug. You are literally immune to every attack they have if you facehug... Pikers become a problem mainly if in groups (and of course anything is deadly in groups).
This must be an EU problem or an exaggeration, on NA the range spam solves pikemen in groups
and on 1 VS 1 there are only a half dozen players at best who can kill reliably with it and to be fair they kill most people regardless of what they are using
EDIT: What with the new wpf having an effect on weapons breaking[...]
I thought the advantage of the 2 handers was the significantly better reach due to the attack animations. *shrugs*
An alternate animation change is to make it begin thrusting earlier in the animation, which counter-intuitively makes it cause less damage and will surely glance a pointblank thrust.
Can you still hit thru thin walls with a Pike?
Yes. You can also thrust through some walls with the long spear. This would suggests that the pike can thrust through objects at least 55 cm thick.Just for people's reference, exploiting by stabbing through terrain (walls, doors, etc.) is illegal. Stabbing through a 2 foot wall next to that ladder the enemy is climbing up is not intended.
The weapon collider for the two handed polearm thrust will interact with other objects as soon as the weapon begins to advance. I am fairly certain weapon colliders for all weapon types and attack directions work similarly, but I have not tested them to the same extent. So, I do not know if it is possible to make a distinction between starting the animation and the weapon advancing.Good to hear someone say that other than me. After reading your post and stuff on length, I have something to add. What I do understand about the animations and doing damage, is that damage is largely based on at what point in the duration of time, relative to the complete animation, it occurred. Regardless of weapon length.
Good to hear someone say that other than me. After reading your post and stuff on length, I have something to add. What I do understand about the animations and doing damage, is that damage is largely based on at what point in the duration of time, relative to the complete animation, it occurred. Regardless of weapon length.
I thought the advantage of the 2 handers was the significantly better reach due to the attack animations. *shrugs*
And the 1000% better feints.
only problem is ridiculous over heads through 5+ team mates to hit and pole stagger the enemy.
When I want to get an almost for sure multi I bring a long spear and tell the team to do so as well, don't even need proficiency just stand behind your team mates over heading and pole staggering enemies as soon as they open up to attack.
On siege this is even worse.(due to choke points) If you couldn't over head through how ever many team mates you want to hit the enemy and then pole stagger them the weapon wouldn't be so godly imo.
The pike is great, stabbing isn't really a problem, it's much harder to stab through team mates without hurting them then to over head through them magically.
so.. to conclude my rambling
Stabby stab stab is okay imo
but the magical overheads that ignore team mates are what make the weapon well.. magic.
IMO, get rid of over heads on the long spear, there are plenty of smaller stabby pole arms that to my knowledge don't effectively by pass team mates to strike enemies on the noggin.
just my opinion.
And the 1000% better feints.
They're OP. Too easy to use. Seriously, with all the jumping and turning, and they're super fast...
Why do I even bother posting in these threads, nobody reads what I end up typing.
Block of text = no thanks, waste of time and effort. Keep your posts compact and conclusive, more people (including me) might read them.
I like how in this day and age people are so hyperactive that three or four paragraphs on a forum (not a chat mind you, but a forum) is considered not compact...Yup. You have to remember that the majority of (and it's going to sound stereotypish) younger people have the attention span of an infant, and the ability to read/write of a pre-schooler.
why do i see references to the length of war & peace everywhere but it's not that long. i expected it to be 6000 pages or something. disappoint.
I like how in this day and age people are so hyperactive that three or four paragraphs on a forum (not a chat mind you, but a forum) is considered not compact...
speed, speed, speed.
Again, absolutely none of the issues being complained about are caused by speed or related to speed.
In fact, lolstabbing and 180-stabs are BETTER & EASIER with lower speed.
If I spam at Pike they won't be able to attack back and lolstab me. They can with Long Spear however, so it is about speed too.
So....
This is about making sure you can blatantly spam someone to death because their weapon is mechanically incapable of fighting back regardless of player skill?
Why would we want this?
Like I said, I doubt there's anything else they can do before WSE is active. I agree this is not the best change and I hate to win with spamming, but until those pikes/long spears bounce at every attack closer than 1m+, I don't think there's anything else I can lobby for.
Are we going to do the same for every 2her and polearm? While making sure that 1hers never bounce at facehug range?
If so then I'd support your lobby. Otherwise it's just some random bias.
means al these fake 2h using a pike dont do it anymore while the treu deticated pikeman keeps on +1 to me.
The stab is instant if you're close to the pikeman. That's not the problem, though. The problem is that it turns the melee into a no-skill spamfest. Not to mention that currently even if you manage to completely play your opponents and keep the pikeman behind his teammates 100% of the time, he still just overheads you through your teammates. In short, it's retarded. It does way too much considering you need zero skill to use it effectively.
Block down, buddy. I would argue it takes a ton of skill.
You obviously don´t know that a downblock does not cover you from an overhead.
Block down, buddy. I would argue it takes a ton of skill.
Is there a connection between 22nd being almost exclusively 2h and them also being the greatest complainers about long spear? :DIt is the great equalizer. Greater numbers and teamwork win in the face of player skill. Every time. Sadly, this is currently more-so caused by the overhead negating the player
... Longspear is obviously balanced, yes, when you can go pike and outrange them! Wow! You must be somehow related to Fasader.
WOW you mean people cant shoot pikemen to bits? Or shielders can't facehug a pike? Why are you complaining, i just provided you with a melee counter to the long spear problem. Pike is useless in a real melee because of it's retarded length and no overhead, it is ONLY good for pike vs pike or pike vs cav. So i just provided you with a solution to the long spear epidemic and immediately you QQ about it, i imagine you're pretty good at warband but you need better metagame bro
You can shoot pikemen, just like you can shoot anyone else. You can facehug pikemen as a shielder just like you can facehug anyone. These are not counters.
And fighting lame with bigger lame isn't an option either.
Are we going to do the same for every 2her and polearm? While making sure that 1hers never bounce at facehug range?
If so then I'd support your lobby. Otherwise it's just some random bias.
you can shoot pikemen, BUT EVERYONE ELSE CAN CARRY A SHIELD/RANGE WEAPON
You can facehug everyone else, BUT SOMEONE WITH A PIKE IS WORSE BECAUSE OF 1 ATTACK DIRECTION
Apparently teamwork is lame, have you ever tried using a pike? Its the most useless fucking thing in a melee battle, but vs cav and vs longspear users its pretty much a hard counter, unless you're completely inept at warband. You can drop it after you're done with it, pulling out your real melee weapon to kill.
As a 2h, you can carry a fucking shield around to not get shot up, Pikemen are pretty much walking blobs of free kills for archers, while 2h can solo dodge/shield from arrow.
Is there a connection between 22nd being almost exclusively 2h and them also being the greatest complainers about long spear? :D
I Rēzekne? Naw, i'm not from around there, if that is what you meant... :?
As a 2h, you can carry a fucking shield around to not get shot up, Pikemen are pretty much walking blobs of free kills for archers, while 2h can solo dodge/shield from arrow.
Pffft, 2h just as pikemen have to invest in shield skill so they are equal there.
No, pikemen must drop their pike to use a shield. I do not have a problem with that, but they are not equal.
You did? :rolleyes:
Pffft, 2h just as pikemen have to invest in shield skill so they are equal there.
My issue with pikes is that on my 2h character I can pick a pike, stand behind friendlies and spin poke the enemy through friendly bodies and shieldes. This way I'm not even close to beeing in danger, whatsoever. Now, justify that with "1 attack direction" not to mention the polearm stun/stagger with a 300 length weapon and 24 pierce damage.
I said they were equal in the amount of dedication towards shields. I did not think I had to clarify it any further, however in this cantankerous place people will try and analyze whatever you write in a post to find a way to twist your words...
so your point is irrevelant because pikemen can't use shields in the first place derp.
You can facehug everyone else, BUT SOMEONE WITH A PIKE IS WORSE BECAUSE OF 1 ATTACK DIRECTION
Apparently teamwork is lame, have you ever tried using a pike? Its the most useless fucking thing in a melee battle, but vs cav and vs longspear users its pretty much a hard counter, unless you're completely inept at warband. You can drop it after you're done with it, pulling out your real melee weapon to kill.
As a 2h, you can carry a fucking shield around to not get shot up, Pikemen are pretty much walking blobs of free kills for archers, while 2h can solo dodge/shield from arrow.I have nothing to write here other then a big fucking :shock:
Lol, they can use shields just as much as any other class. I don't see why pikemen have a lesser disposition to use shields then anyone else. Ok, they have to drop their weapon. Well any other 2h or polearm that uses both hands have to sheathe it or drop it. Eitheir both men effectively disarmed themselves. I don't see how anyone has an advantage over the other. And to try and put any logic into this to begin with when the fuck did this become a "2h vs pikemen who is the most effective shielder".... you must be a big fucking moron to try and make this a plug into any persons head, as a "disadvantaged pikeman"Siiem, you noobwegian, you fail so hard...
Siiem, you noobwegian, you fail so hard...
Approach an archer/crossbowman? Oh, but you dropped your pike/long spear half a map ago...
Siiem, just... go...(click to show/hide)
Spearman: see archer far away, drop pike, put up a shield, go to archer, arrive at archer, put down shield, where's my weapon?
2h: see archer far away, sheath 2h, put up a shield, go to archer, arrive at archer, put down shield, slice archer in half.
Siiem, i don't know what 22nd did to you, but i don't like it :(
Legolas. But according to all the archery whine threads about projectile speed sucking it should not be a problem blocking an arrow from afar? Pike, 1 slot shield 1h. Issue?
Spearman: see archer, drop spear, put up a shield, go to archer, arrive at archer, put down shield, where's my weapon?
2handed: see archer, sheath 2h, put up a shield, go to archer, arrive at archer, put down shield, slice archer in half.
No, the last few pages were people trying to explain to Siiem, how the "specialist against horses" is not able to tackle archers. Read carefully.
L2P? That works for most people.
How bad do you have to suck to want a weapon to lose its ability to block? Geez...
"OMG, fuck these bastards and their ability to block my attacks instead of just curl up and die from the mere sight of my awesomeness! NEEEEEEEEERRRRRRFFFFFF!"This reminds me of all the people who complain that archers run away... Never thought I would see the day when people would say the same thing about a melee weapon :lol: Ah, silly people, why so silly?
And so the server must play with pikes long spears and ranged only. Good idea dumbcake
my god 22nd are thick
How bad do you have to suck to want a weapon to lose its ability to block? Geez...
Okay so to sum up this interaction, your argument was...?How is this idea even feasible? I've already made posts, I'm not going to argue this any further.
"Longspears should keep their blocks just because". Maybe you are right, but why not explain?
Okay so to sum up this interaction, your argument was...?
"Longspears should keep their blocks just because". Maybe you are right, but why not explain?
OK, here is my argument:
When fighting a group of people I can easily slip to the piker/long spear fella and give a quick hack, however they usually block... if this ability was removed, it would mean death on a stick in most situations, and it would be an extremely expensive weapon for the inability to block or defend against cav, only poke at cav and pray to god that your unreliable team mates can screen properly and keep the pissed off guy from chopping your head off.
Just Like Becs are an NA problem, apparently this super scary OP Pike stuff is apparently mainly an EU problem, for here they are a right pain in the ass but not OP. Removing the ability to block is just... sad. No one in their right mind would use one, especially since you have to drop it to use another weapon.
One on One a pike is not scary compared to the Real weapons, and in groups well of course it rocks everything rocks in groups.
3 archers vs 3 longpikers. Who wins? I don't care if they can block or not :lol: EU should l2counter :P
Please stop hurting me :cry:
Okay so to sum up this interaction, your argument was...?
"Longspears should keep their blocks just because". Maybe you are right, but why not explain?
Removing the blocks is not ideal, but I don't think the game can currently simulate the difficulty of blocking with such a cumbersome weapon, thus distorting the weapon function. I agree that removing or reducing the overhead swing would be an easier fix. Also I assume that if blocking was removed from the longspear, the gold price would be decreased.
in real life people can use a shield with a 14 foot pike, in real life there would not be a need to block because a pike wall would keep people from comming close, unlike how we can phase through weapons and people in CRPG.14 foot / a shield? 8 to 10 feet being standard shield&spear length, 10 being a little cumbersome for weaker people. 12 being hard to use but doable for some. 14 foot with a shield? The only people I can imagine seeing do that are the people I see when at the gym, you know, the kind that look like they are smuggling watermelons in their shirt sleeves.
Pike was op in real life, much more so than the long spear. The overhead is abusable yes, but its not as OP as everyone says it is.
14 foot / a shield? 8 to 10 feet being standard shield&spear length, 10 being a little cumbersome for weaker people. 12 being hard to use but doable for many. 14 foot with a shield? The only people I can imagine seeing do that are the people I see when at the gym, you know, the kind that look like they are smuggling watermelons in their shirt sleeves.
I saw it in a movie, and did it a lot in a video game.not in this one at least. bamboo spear is 8 to 9 feet though. (Which is really sad that we don't have any shield/spear combos that look realistic. Closest being light lance :()
not in this one at least. bamboo spear is 8 to 9 feet though.But I read it in a book. Like, anime and stuff! Really canon.
14 foot / a shield? 8 to 10 feet being standard shield&spear length, 10 being a little cumbersome for weaker people. 12 being hard to use but doable for some. 14 foot with a shield? The only people I can imagine seeing do that are the people I see when at the gym, you know, the kind that look like they are smuggling watermelons in their shirt sleeves.
Each phalangite carried as his primary weapon a sarissa, a double-pointed pike over 6 m (18 ft) in length. Before a battle the sarissa were carried in two pieces and then slid together when they were being used. At close range such large weapons were of little use, but an intact phalanx could easily keep its enemies at a distance; the weapons of the first five rows of men all projected beyond the front of the formation, so that there were more spearpoints than available targets at any given time. The secondary weapon was a shortsword.
But I read it in a book. Like, anime and stuff! Really canon.
They had their shields strapped to their arms, that's how.
"The sheer bulk and size of the spear required the soldiers to wield the spear with both hands, allowing them to carry only a 24 inch shield (pelta) suspended from the neck to cover the left shoulder."
Exactly my point still stands. They used those with both hands, not one hand & one with a shield.
Read history, but don't just skim the fighting style. There is a big difference between a 10 foot spear with a punch shield, a 12 foot spear with arm straps, and a 15+ foot spear that is used with 2 hands.
did i say 1 hand one shield? no i said you can use pikes WITH A SHIELD.Body shields are completely different from what we refer to as shields, and function completely differently. They are there to augment armor in a specific way to close out a glaring weakness.
Body shields are completely different from what we refer to as shields, and function completely differently. They are there to augment armor in a specific way to close out a glaring weakness.
Whether they be a back-shield, side-shield or otherwise. The macedonian phalanx has a side shield hung from the neck covering the left shoulder as it is the bulk of the forward facing mass and thus the vulnerable point to incoming projectiles.
I would really like to see someone jump in the air with a pike, spin twice, and successfully stab a target three feet away from them.
Would be impressive.
except that once they closed in, they can convert to a sword and shield fighting style. Which is why they had xiphos. Even hoplites had shoulderstraps for their aspis, and forearm grips. Using a shield to block arrows is pretty much the reason for a shield, i don't see the point you're making right nowit is the same as having a shield on your back in game. it is not the same as using something with a shield.
it is the same as having a shield on your back in game. it is not the same as using something with a shield.
i'd like to see anyone jump into the air and attack at the same time with any weapon
It would be much easier to do with a weapon that isn't longer than your entire body + a good chunk.
theres a reason why jump slashes arent taught in Martial Arts
Okay so to sum up this interaction, your argument was...?
"Longspears should keep their blocks just because". Maybe you are right, but why not explain?
It would be much easier to do with a weapon that isn't longer than your entire body + a good chunk.
In all honesty once you chamber an attack with the pike you should not be able to move. ...
For the love of god remove the overhand attack, if it really is a support weapon than an overhand attack voids it.
This would mean removing block from english bill, swiss halberd, poleaxes etc. You really want to go down that road?
Well that applies to every weapon in the game. So if you chamber any attack you should just have magically stuck feet? :lol: Also remove the overhead from other weapons too. They aren't supposed to do that... :rolleyes:
This would mean removing block from english bill, swiss halberd, poleaxes etc. You really want to go down that road?
Well that applies to every weapon in the game. So if you chamber any attack you should just have magically stuck feet? :lol: Also remove the overhead from other weapons too. They aren't supposed to do that... :rolleyes:
Chambering an attack is not the same as chamber blocking an attack.read what you quoted again
Chambering an attack is the act of bringing the weapon up in preparation to attack. What my suggestion is not allowing the super long pike weapons to move once they have an attack prepared, I would even try to limit how much they can adjust where their attack is directed once it is prepared also.
read what you quoted again
read what you quoted again
In mount and blade terms it is incorrect I guess, or means the same thing really.no, dude. He was referring to chambering as preparing / holding, not chamber blocking. That was my whole post point. Just read it again.
But I am trying to differentiate the two, basically if you prepare an attack you shouldn't be able to move with the weapon.
In the real world chambering an attack means having the attack ready to throw, since chamber blocks aren't really a real thing in the way they are portrayed in M&B.
Sorry for not conforming to the imaginary non real code of lingo.
You can slow them down all you like, they will still rule melee group fights, it is just the nature of those weapons. And, yeah, apparently the same thing happened IRL too :o
Doesnt fix anything. The point is to force the pikeman to drop his weapon when enemy is close and stop exploiting with lolstab, not to force him to actually use his pike all the time.
3 slot pike/longspear + no blocking sounds okay.
No, pike formations stomping stuff in melee.
Then many other weapons deserve 3 slots as well.
And a Pike should at the very least be able to block stabs, how do you figure two pikeblocks would fight?
I don't think pike men would fight each other without shields.
how do you figure two pikeblocks would fight?
(click to show/hide)
Pike is a support weapon. Long spear can handle itself on 1v1 if the player is skilled and lucky.
I once saw a greatsword user holding a swing, forcing his enemy to block, whilst his buddy swung from the other side. Incredible!
But so rare, most of the time they are just trying to spam whole armies singlehandedly and complaining about pikes/long spears :|
I think this is a better view of Pike warfare:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26C758K4Fc0
It might eventually end in that way but just charging forward with pikes is pure suicide.
Also the Pike manuals do support the fighting style shown in above movie.
Oh really? Think a bit about why it's different. Maybe it'll come to you.
Same reason why Polearms were OP in RL: length
OMG NERF PHYSICS
OMG A PIKE CAN STAB THROUGH SOLID OBJECTS AND IT CAN STAB THROUGH FRIENDLY SOLDIERS OMG PHYSICS!Just like how people can jumpstab horses and spin and do fancy stuff in the middle of the air, or how a horse can run into someone at full speed and the person only loses some health instead of being killed on the spot from the collision!
I once saw a greatsword user holding a swing, forcing his enemy to block, whilst his buddy swung from the other side. Incredible!
Pike is fine. Longspear needs something done about the overhead that goes through teammates and slightly less damage/speed, then it's fine. It would still work perfectly as a support weapon, it just wouldn't be a 1-hitting machine that has instant stabs if you're within certain range.
All polearm overheads go through teammates. So it's not only longspear that needs work there.
I heard that polearm overheads got replaced with overhand stabs for a moment before the hotfix? I imagine that might be one of the first things on devs agenda when we get a WSE-enabled cRPG. Until then, nothing can be done about the polearm overheads (or the bugged up polearm stab, which makes pike/long spear stabs hit where they shouldn't).
Lowering the speed by any amount will make long spear users pretty much incapable of returning attacks in melee, which they can't do a lot of the time as it is already.
In my opinion, Long Spear should be an enemy speed based weapon, this mean that it's damage should rely more on the speed bonus of the enemy that's running into you - making this weapon an excellent cav stopper and a nice infantry charge stopper. I guess just reducing damage would help that.
Giving a overhead stab to longspears might just make them more OP, I think. That way you could instakill anyone if you have two longspears, as the other one can have an overhead stab chambered while the other one has a normal thrust chambered. Unless, of course, the overhead stab is given some other purpose than just being an up-block stab.
Yes, and it's not a problem for other polearms most of the time because they lack the length to really abooz that.
Giving a overhead stab to longspears might just make them more OP, I think. That way you could instakill anyone if you have two longspears, as the other one can have an overhead stab chambered while the other one has a normal thrust chambered. Unless, of course, the overhead stab is given some other purpose than just being an up-block stab.
But yeah, maybe not a speed nerf, but some damage taken off it would be good. Longspear does ridiculous amounts of damage when it would be good even if it did no damage and only caused your opponent to break his block.
I'm still not seeing why 2 pikes SHOULDN'T mean veritable instant death for any solo enemy? Overhead bonk or thrust, doesn't matter. Why should retards be able to just hold downblock until the end of time to completely negate multiple people like they can already do with hoplites?
Because it means everyone will carry pikes and the game becomes about numbers, not skill.
Who seriously wants to see a game become about numbers instead of skill? Except people without skill... and even most of those are trying to become better. Why SHOULD two people be able to kill one more skilled guy by default? What fun is there in a game that is all about having +1 player on your side? Losing all competitive edge in a game means it loses most of its players.
2 players will always win against another guy solo if they've got the same level and skill. And that's normal.
Exactly. That is my very point. This is how it should be. Hell, even two guys who are a bit worse than the one guy can beat the one guy with numbers.
No bro, that makes no sense. Those guys were far superior, there wasn't anyone just a "bit" worse than them teaming up on 'em!I didn't know you were a fanboy of this Canary guy.
I didn't know you were a fanboy of this Canary guy.
I didn't know you were a fanboy of this Canary guy.
Who are the items balancers?
they should try playing the game, long spears is fucking redic atm
Pike is a support weapon. Long spear can handle itself on 1v1 if the player is skilled and lucky.
One is Xbow aboozer and the other one is hiding behind shield most of the time. Both of them have no problems with pikes, obviously...
And that's the bullshit part. No way you should win against a face hugging shielder. It's just snafued game mechanics that allow it to happen now.
Because it means everyone will carry pikes and the game becomes about numbers, not skill.
Who seriously wants to see a game become about numbers instead of skill? Except people without skill... and even most of those are trying to become better. Why SHOULD two people be able to kill one more skilled guy by default? What fun is there in a game that is all about having +1 player on your side? Losing all competitive edge in a game means it loses most of its players.
If those two people kill that one more "skilled" guy by default then perhaps he isn't as fucking skilled as he imagines himself to be in his mind. :shock: BLASPHEMY!
So... Everyone is carrying pikes currently then? Funny, I still see a shit-load of 2hers, polearms, shielders and so many fucking ranged players you'd think this is BF2. Oh, I see quite a fair number of pikes/longspears/long voulges/english bills/swiss halbards lately as well, but no more than anything else when you look at the large picture of the field.
The fact that you really think that being outnumbered causing your loss is "losing all competitive edge" or the game being "ALL about numbers instead of skill" just shows a massively delusional sense of your own skill level. I'm fucking terrible. I have NO problem at all when two or more people gangbang me to death and I wasn't able to utilize chambering and footwork to beat them. I also have no problem with the times that I AM able to use my skill in order to defeat those multiple opponents.
What you're talking about also applies to:
2+ ranged triangulating you
2+ shielders utilizing circling/flanking/chain stuns/opposing strikes on you
2+ 2hers utilizing circling/flanking/chain stuns/opposing strikes on you
2+ polearmers utilizing circling/flanking/chain stuns/opposing strikes on you
2+ cav utilizing circ/flanking/chain bumping you
and any combination in-between.
Fact of life and gaming: Numbers are and SHOULD be a huge advantage and yes it does and SHOULD give two lesser skilled players a leg up on a player they wouldn't be able to kill by themselves. IE: When we all chain stun and butt-fuck goretooth/cyranule/manofwar/etc.
bump.
Pikes and Long Spears need a speed buff.
Discuss.
pike also needs a range buff, 3 meters is not a pike, its a pussy
You have seen some profoundly fucked up pussies in your time...
My cat looks nothing like a pike!
two competent swordsmen against better opponent = they might win but not every time
two competent polearmers against better opponent = they might win but not every time
two competent cavs against better opponent = they might win but not every time
two competent archers against better opponent = they might win but not every time
two competent xbowmen against better opponent = they might win but not every time
two competent pikemen against better opponent = they will ALWAYS win
No... :rolleyes:
Just bias and hyperbole. If you can say ALWAYS to pikemen you can say ALWAYS to every other example you gave.
None of you have seen the most vicious 2-man combo ever, I guess.
Great mauler + any long pokey weapon.
There is NOTHING you can do about it alone. Nothing. But nobody ever does this combo. Maybe after today...
None of you have seen the most vicious 2-man combo ever, I guess.
Great mauler + any long pokey weapon.
There is NOTHING you can do about it alone. Nothing. But nobody ever does this combo. Maybe after today...
That's really fun. Me and koldborn have done it a couple of times. Me with a great maul, him with a masterwork long spear. Impossible to beat when you go 2 vs. 1.It is so fucking dirty.
WHAT HAVE YOU DONE MARATHON
Thanks for ruining the game....No problem.
If it comes to the attention of the devs, it can be fixed.
Hahahahah. Ahahahaha. Ha. Ah. Come on now, there's no need to be silly.I honestly don't have any idea what you can do about that combo.
I honestly don't have any idea what you can do about that combo.
one pike and one long spear is the only solutionI don't think that is, tbh. I think it would be at a disadvantage. Greatmauls eat those for breakfast so fast it isn't funny.
I don't think that is, tbh. I think it would be at a disadvantage. Greatmauls eat those for breakfast so fast it isn't funny.
Also, I was referring to as a solo player against that 2 man combo. But lets be honest, other 2 man combos are also at disadvantage against it. It is pretty much the most retardedly effective combo.
eh soloing anyone is stupid in my experience. Too many variables in a duel compared to a gank. i think a long weapon like a flam and a pike is the best counter. Pike kills the longspear (or at least forces a block) and the spamberg spams the maul/ longspear.I was editing. I had accidentally posted before being finished. Read again.
Is this what we want? They're just too useful/deadly in group combat.
And once again we come full circle back to NERF TEAMWORK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111!oneoneONE
The same can be said about ranged weapons btw. "OMG, the archers have triangulated us and there's no protection! Shields only (halfassedly) block one side!" :lol:
They should be helpful in groups, but not unbalance fights. For now, the team with most pikemen wins. And there's more and more people picking up long spears/pikes.
And for fucks sake, mindless spam stabbing from behind your team is not teamwork, it's easy kill hunting. Long spears do too much damage to be called "support weapons" at the moment.
Errr another option :
Don't bash to enemy team , try to play with your team to overcome your enemy who's using teamwork with combination of 2handers,shielders,pikemen,cav and archers ?
Good god, just remove the overhand and be done with it. It's bugged and doesn't make sense anyway. This discussion is all over the bloody place.
Good god, just remove the overhand and be done with it. It's bugged and doesn't make sense anyway. This discussion is all over the bloody place.That alone won't be enough. I predict a damage and speed nerf in the future since this is apparently causing massive distress to much of the playerbase. I wonder what the next 'OP' weapon will be?
They should be helpful in groups, but not unbalance fights. For now, the team with most pikemen wins. And there's more and more people picking up long spears/pikes.
And for fucks sake, mindless spam stabbing from behind your team is not teamwork, it's easy kill hunting. Long spears do too much damage to be called "support weapons" at the moment.
But awlpike is short which means you have to face the enemy, not just stand behind others and poke enemies with no risk what so ever.I think that's the whole 'point' (pun intended) of a long spear. Also it's not no risk whatsoever. They are vulnerable to ranged and shielders. 2h and pole who can block also aren't helpless. But they will be nerfed, I have little doubt. Devs should make a poll before though so they can know what other weaps need nerfing so we can just get it over with and quit this endless hunt for the 'OP' weapon after each patch. I want to play a monotonous nerfed up boring game sooner rather than later. Make it so!
<- proud supporter of pike speed nerf and overhead removal since like forever
<- proud supporter of pike speed nerf and overhead removal since like forever
Hmm, how about a small damage nerf to both stab and overhead? -2b and -1p, while slightly increasing shield coverage to encourage shielders defending their teammates from pikes? outright removing an attack type seems a bit severe..
no god, shields already phantomblock a stab to a horse, more shield coverage is not the answer.
and if it is, sure why not? Means less rangespam
Then either add the slight increase (1 to 2 points) to shields not useable on horseback, or make some more shields unusuable on horse and then add them to those aswell?
I like that back in the days of pocket pikemen, when the Long Spear was called the pike and hit much faster and everyone carried one, no one brought this stuff up about them being "too powerful" against other melee users, despite the fact that dedicated pikers do just as well now as they did before... despite that it was stupid easy and cheap (half the price that it is now and sheathable)to have and hit faster... they only complained that everyone could have something to stop horses...
Metagame. Pikes weren't really used that much... only a bit before the addition of pike and long spear we started seeing clans spam pikes. Even (especially) then it meant more pikes = win. Fallen was running around with like 5-6 pikemen, it was retarded.
I've got a STF 24-15 long spear user and it's just stupidly OP. I can top the scoreboards easy with never switching out from Long Spear and that's not even counting the countless of kills I delivered to my teammates on silver platter. Worst thing about the weapon? It's such a boring playstyle. Takes no effort to be super effective.
really, the only reason why pikes and long spears are so good now is because the majority of the player base actually knows how to block. So we see a lot of block battles where there is a certain rhythm to the fight that can be predicted and anticipated. Long spears and pikes add the annoying element of stunlock and because you are so far away, you can bring many weapons to bear on the same person, making it more difficult to "read the rhythm". This is the main reason why longspears and pikes are so good, it eliminates the duels and blockfests we see in battles. This is also why pairing it up with a great maul is so deadly, because a great maul also fulfills a similar role in eliminating block battles.
But i can see why 2h hate this weapon. :D
really, the only reason why pikes and long spears are so good now is because the majority of the player base actually knows how to block. So we see a lot of block battles where there is a certain rhythm to the fight that can be predicted and anticipated. Long spears and pikes add the annoying element of stunlock and because you are so far away, you can bring many weapons to bear on the same person, making it more difficult to "read the rhythm". This is the main reason why longspears and pikes are so good, it eliminates the duels and blockfests we see in battles. This is also why pairing it up with a great maul is so deadly, because a great maul also fulfills a similar role in eliminating block battles.
But i can see why 2h hate this weapon. :D
It never bounces (almost) even at facehug distance it's very easy to spinthrust with it. While 1h swords and2h swords bouncea lot more at such a distance.
You can win 1 vs 1 duels with a longspear as well. The retarded stab can do damage while you jump backwards. And having 2 attack directions only is not so handicapping at all. And it also stabs faster then any 2h sword or 1h. It never bounces (almost) even at facehug distance it's very easy to spinthrust with it. While 1h swords and 2h swords bounce a lot more at such a distance.
if you stay still and exchange hits at facehug range your stab will bounce off in most cases.
Siiem is one of the better 2h players on EU servers.
2h sword do bounce when you're facehugging, of course overhead doesn't but swings and stab often bounce. Stab is problematic because it requires small speed bonus, if you stay still and exchange hits at facehug range your stab will bounce off in most cases.
bad positioning, theres a reason why hiltslashes are so common
seriously how can people get annoyed by this.
uhmm how about block down?
ive been detic piker for so long now, people are inpatient and then get stabbed by me how about just block down instead of te spam, or maybe just adjust because pikers realy shine in 1 1v1 :rolleyes:
seriously how can people get annoyed by this.
uhmm how about block down?
ive been detic piker for so long now, people are inpatient and then get stabbed by me how about just block down instead of te spam, or maybe just adjust because pikers realy shine in 1 1v1 :rolleyes:
I was not complaining that 2h swords bounce with thrusts on facehug distance it's quite obvious why. I just made it a point that you can come around that alot easier with a long spear than a two handed sword or a one handed sword.
It might just be the polearm stab, if so a new one would be nice... maybe a delayed one like in 1h and 2h so they are more equal.
seriously how can people get annoyed by this.
uhmm how about block down?
ive been detic piker for so long now, people are inpatient and then get stabbed by me how about just block down instead of te spam, or maybe just adjust because pikers realy shine in 1 1v1 :rolleyes:
but I hate needing to block down in the first place when I'm right in someone's face when they have a pike.
Ok. I'll revise that. Get rid of overhead on the pike god damn. It's confirmed to be bugged and makes literally no sense. Balance something other then archery and throwing according to realism for once.
Then, whatever is allowing people to visually and clearly "miss" and then wiggle around to actually hit after all? Fix the hell out of that. You shouldn't be able to thrust past someone who dodges your attack, and then spasm around waving your spear like a moron, somehow slapping them to death with the side of it. I mean, you've walked past the pointy bit but it can still stab you somehow? I don't even...
Don't need to take away their block. Damage is fine. Do whatever you want with speed. It doesn't matter. See above for what does. /\
Overhead we all agree on. The whole being able to "miss" and then "wiggle" it? Yeah, that's a huge problem with every weapon (most noticable on 2h'ers and pike style weapons though.) Most of us want that fixed as well, yes. Those that don't are those 2hers that abuse the shit out of the lightsaber effect.
So basically if there were a vote we'd be at a dead split, or the jedis would probably even be winning. :lol:
I lightsaber the shit out of people when on a 2h. It is amazingly broken!
>thrust passed people
>They stop blocking
>Swing sword thrust into their side
> Both of our brains explode
Same thing with slow overheads and hitting people in the legs by dragging.
The realization that every fight I do now I abuse game mechanics to the max ultimate extreme?
Feels good man.
It's gay. The instant thrust was easier to block than the current slow one.
I like the new thrust, the old instant stab had a lot of problems.
HOWEVER.
When changing the animation and effectively nerfing it (which was good) -- they should not have also at the same time nerfed 2h thrust damage by so much.
Implementing both at the same time was a dumb idea.
Hint: increase 2h thrust damage by 3 across the board.
That is a problem with all stabs though, it happened with the old stab animation as well.
I like the new thrust, the old instant stab had a lot of problems.
HOWEVER.
When changing the animation and effectively nerfing it (which was good) -- they should not have also at the same time nerfed 2h thrust damage by so much.
Implementing both at the same time was a dumb idea.
Hint: increase 2h thrust damage by 3 across the board.
suggested many a time, but hey:
- add overhead stab
- remove blocking
@marathon yup why I hate duel servers / duelists. those pricks there who never lose can beat me fair easily. but instead always just abuse stab animation with 2h, and laugh if you complain.
Game Balance Discussion
The over head makes no sense realistically or game-balance wise. How would someone swing that pole over their head like that so easilyR-E-A-D
It's gay. The instant thrust was easier to block than the current slow one.
(you shouldn't be able to feint with a pike)
They can be realistic and balanced at the same time.
Add unbalanced to the weapon (you shouldn't be able to feint with a pike) - yes
Lower the speeds of the weapons a bit - no
Increase the damage a bit - dear god no
Lower the cost decently - lol
You... you really think feinting is the problem? Or do you think unbalanced tag actually prevents feinting? Both? [Surprise: Both are wrong]
Unbalanced tag would really just cause a huge additional stun to the pike users after you block them. They wouldn't be able to block your return swing. Pretty easy to see the problem there. You want pikemen to not be able to defend themselves, again.
Again the same point. Why only pikes? A polearm with heavy tip should all then be unbalanced surely?Length. A 155 length Long Hafted Blade will be hard and unwieldy, but I would assume a 300 length pike would be harder to wield around based on the sheer length of the weapon.
IMO, the strength of the pike isn't in dehorsing cav, it's in keeping cav away from the line to start with, what cav outside of stupid ones would charge an aware pikeman, after all?
Pretend to be unaware. I've killed tons of cav by the use of the view outfit button. :wink:As have I, but I tend to run with the pack, and if I use the View Outfit button for too long, I end up meeting an entire line of people who want to hurt me. Perhaps it's just how I approach being a pikeman, lol.
You... you really think feinting is the problem? Or do you think unbalanced tag actually prevents feinting? Both? [Surprise: Both are wrong]
Unbalanced tag would really just cause a huge additional stun to the pike users after you block them. They wouldn't be able to block your return swing. Pretty easy to see the problem there. You want pikemen to not be able to defend themselves, again.
wat
my thoughts exactly
it's just because you use a longspear yourself you won't admit that they move at speed of light!!1
Imho, problem with pikes, spears and lances of all kinds is speed. Even that silly pitchfork can outspam almost everyone. Stab is too fast and that's why awlpike + shield is really strong build these days.
I would like to see animation of those weapons tweaker or speed lowered, without making them unbalanced, not able to block, overhead blah blah blah...
Hey man, I think he's in high school now. Let's throw pennies at him.I'm down.
You... you really think feinting is the problem? Or do you think unbalanced tag actually prevents feinting? Both? [Surprise: Both are wrong]
Unbalanced tag would really just cause a huge additional stun to the pike users after you block them. They wouldn't be able to block your return swing. Pretty easy to see the problem there. You want pikemen to not be able to defend themselves, again.
The stun from a weapon is only based on the weight difference between your weapon and the opponents. If yours weighs more, they get stunned when blocking you. Unbalanced does not do this. I have read up on this thoroughly.You're wrong.
Unbalanced stops you from canceling an attack once it has started the swing, so yes it stops feinting.
You can look either of these up in the Taleworlds forums.
wrong. Just the timeframe to cancel the attack is much shorter.
+ Make them both 2 slot
+ Add new overhead animation for spears
+ Add pike couch
- Remove blocking
Leave as 3 slot.
Leave blocking.
Add pike couch.
Add overhead animation.
^
Would make them really boring weapons
Necro.
Longspears and pikes:
+ Make them both 2 slot
+ Add new overhead animation for spears
+ Add pike couch
- Remove blocking
They are anti cav weapons
Necro.
Longspears and pikes:
+ Make them both 2 slot
+ Add new overhead animation for spears
+ Add pike couch
- Remove blocking
What is the purpose of pike couch? Can someone explain this to me? Put one end of a pike in the ground and then wait for some moronic cav to impale itself? Or what?
What is the purpose of pike couch? Can someone explain this to me? Put one end of a pike in the ground and then wait for some moronic cav to impale itself? Or what?Hmm.... remove horse rearing from all but... :D
They are cav deterrent weapons. Also, they can kill cav sometimes. That's why they are called "anti cav."
If someone chooses to give away their 1v1 abilities in order to 2v1 you they shouldn't be penalized.Pikes have underwhelming support capability by now (low damage, only one attack direction, slow and unbalanced) yet are still capable of duels. It's balanced, but it's less fun than it could be.
Pikes have underwhelming support capability by now (low damage, only one attack direction, slow and unbalanced) yet are still capable of duels. It's balanced, but it's less fun than it could be.
yeahh look, as much as i hate jump swing and jump stab abusers, there is a really easy way to counter the long spear.
all you need to do is stand still and hold your block down. if he gets close to try and kick slash just back away.
see who loses their patience first.
if he tries to run just follow him.
You forgot the part where it's 2 v 1 and one of them has a pike.Bro, give two guys danish greatswords and some slight brains and the same thing will pretty much happen 'cept they don't stab 100% through their teammates.
Player A: Random meleeist
Player B: Pikeman
Situation 1: You successfully dodge Player A, go for Player B in the back because he can reach you from a mile away, he blocks your swing, player A catches up, swing at your back, you're dead.
Situation 2: You decide to focus on Player A before engaging Player B, Player B stabs you through his teammate from a very safe reach, you're dead.
Situation 3: You decide to play defensively, Player A swings at you, you block, Player B swings at you at the same second Player A swung at you, you get stabbed through Player A because he used his mana to become ethereal while Player B was stabbing through him with his long reach.
Situation 4: You decide to play defensively again, Player B is the first one to engage you, you block, your stuck in that needlessly long down-block animation compared to the other blocs, Player A overheads you, can't block because you're stuck in that down-block animation. Assuming you didn't die, go to Situation 3, Player A swings at you, Player B stabs your guts while you're busy blocking Player A.
Now, change all these situations with 2 or hell, even 3 meleeist that doesn't have any pikes and it's suddenly much easier because you don't have someone with a weapon almost thrice as long as most weapons effortlessly controlling the tip to stab through his now ethereal teammates by just wiggling his camera around.
Bro, give two guys danish greatswords and some slight brains and the same thing will pretty much happen 'cept they don't stab 100% through their teammates.
Bro, give two guys danish greatswords and some slight brains and the same thing will pretty much happen 'cept they don't stab 100% through their teammates.
^
That's uhh... the whole point of taking a pike.
For exemple, I'm fighting a random melee dude, I see a pikeman coming, I try my hardest to get them in a straight line which I usually can since I play with 8 athletics, you'd figured being in a straight line with a melee guy and a pikeman would be helpful unless the pikeman wanted to kill his friends. Oh wait oops, he just used his wizardry shit to stab THROUGH his teammate despite us being in a straight line that I forced specifically so that wouldn't happen.
That also applies to walls, there's so many times I was hiding around short walls that still covered my head, drinking my water bottle thinking that guy on the other side couldn't hit me unless he ran to the other side to actually fight me but nope, just stabs above wall, curve the pike around the wall, stab everyone even remotely close to hiding behind that wall.
I try my hardest to get them in a straight line
There's your problem right there. That is EXACTLY what the pikeman wants you to try. It just gives him a perfect line up to pin you down while his ally swings away.
You can't fight a pike/LS like you would a 2Her (i.e getting the two between each other with the one that came at you first in front). Footwork is EXTREMELY important when fighting a pikeman, it's just not the same footwork you would use against a 2H + 2H combo.
What you need to do is get past the random melee-er, and get the pikeman between you and him. It requires playing very defensively, as far as blocks goes, while using very aggressive footwork. to get past the melee-er without getting stabbed. I wouldn't even try and attack until you've gotten past the melee-er.
If you can get them separated long enough for one of them to attack without the other being able to help, you can often use this as an opportunity to get into melee range of the pikeman, and get around him.
Just a tip, pikeman don't like to wiggle to the right. It works fine, but it just feels really weird. So if you can, try and circle around to your right when getting past the melee-er, so he's in the way of their wiggle. This is by no means a 100% guarantee it will work, but it's a much safer bet than trying to go left.
I still find it a bit stupid, have to throw out real life logic completely out the window to adapt to a nearly non-sensical strategy.
You know by real life logic you are meant to lose a 2v1 right?