Heavy armours are still junk, don't see why they need more messing with. The movement penalty is not worth like +10 armourThey are not junk at all. They give massive protection from missiles, at least from arrows.
Not really from my experience. Still better to move fast to dodge and reach targets faster, plus movement is more important in melee than being able to take another hit imoThen your experience is not showing the truth. I don't know what armor you consider as heavy, but I'm shooting a plate crutcher in the chest for 8-10 times and he still doesn't even lose half the hp. Remember, plate is not only used by infantry. Besides, do you even know butan?
Armours from 12kg up to 16kg, should get a +2 Strenght requirement
Armours from 16.1kg up to 21kg, should get a +3 Strenght requirement
And
Armours from 21.1kg up to 27.8 (last armour)kg, should get a +7 Strength requirement.
Is it only me who still thinks agi builds in heavy armour are useless? :|
Can anybody name a few players doing well with agi build and heavy armour?
I am from NA so it may be different here than EU, but I recently started wearing heraldic transitional armor on a 15/27 Long Axe character I have and I have to say it actually makes agi whoring way easier. I have 9 ATH so even with that heavy armor I outrun most people and the long axe is fast enough that the wpf difference is not noticeable at all.
TL;DR Yes because I can agi whore and tank long enough to get easy valor.
Is it only me who still thinks agi builds in heavy armour are useless? :|
Can anybody name a few players doing well with agi build and heavy armour?
To really make agi builds cry, including me, increase the requirements for heavier weapons.Do Not worry. Someone will probably suggest it soon now.
I think bob will be the only "agiwhorebuild" to vote against his own kind being able to swing lightning fast and be able to tank haha
Not like wearing heavy armour with agibuild is that good anyways, sure it makes me a tad bit tankier but the lack of HP makes armor pretty weak. Basically strapping on a piece of plate is mainly for protection vs archers. The movement speed loss puts you in the same position as a balance build with the exception that you can outsprint them while they still do more damage. It looks threatening and can sometimes cause more glances but it is not really stronk enough to need to be nerfed IMO.
Cant agree more :D
And thats not because I want to be the only one to wear gothic plate, but the fact is that the MOST CUMBERSOME ARMOR OF CRPG needing only 16 str to wear is not normal.
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95% of the players at lvl 30+ have at least 18 strength, thus can don the best armor in the game. Why not just removing the difficulty system then? :P
I think the difficulty should be scaled on the average lvl 30 builds, and not just to let people "try it" very progressively, which is good for player's freedom to test everything (even if they fuck their build up :P), but its not a noob game anymore right?
For the same reason that the Great Maul had its difficulty requirement increased to 20,
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We should scale everything up so that the "heavy armors" and the "heavy weapons" requires more strength to wield.
Bonus argument :
- on battle/siege server : plate players/groups with balanced/agi builds are OP if used right, the upkeep only forbid the poor to use it, not the skilled!
- on strategus battles : plate armies are boring at end-game, if the armors needed more strenght to wield, the strategus leaders would be FORCED to keep a large place for light-medium armors even if everyone's rich as cresus, and the metagame would be much more balanced, fun, and fluid without item pricing changes!
Comparing weapon to armour is bit stupid, you people forget that plate armor is usually well balanced, with strenght distributed all over the body.
Swinging fuckhueg heavy mallet is going to require much more strength than wearing plate armor.
Strength requirement for plate should be 18 at maximum, anything more is ridiculous.
I take part in Medieval events where people play Warband in RL you could say. These who collapse during a battle or in the heat of the sun are always the ones who wear the heaviest armor (which is surprisingly mail rather than plate). Not sure if this is transferrable to cRPG in any way, but from this perspective, I think it is harder to fight in heavy armor than wielding a big weapon.
Realism has never been paid any attention in this mod, so why start now?
And if it was then why are throwing lances the most difficult weapon to carry in the entire game? They need a minimum investment of 21 Str and 7 skill points, that's more Str than Great Maul + a skillpoint sinkhole.
Basically it looks like they decide to balance things in terms of 'this something only high Str can uuuse, lets make it high Str', so why not up the Str requirement? Even with 18 requirement you'd still have 18/21 2handers leaping around with 7 Athletics at level 30, 8 athletics at level 33, so it's not like increasing Str requirement to 18 would ruin anyone's anime hero 'i can leap around with a massive weapon and weapons cannot hurt me through my SKILL' immersion.
At the moment you can crutch spammy agility builds and crutch +3 plate armour sets at the same time, the 2 options should exclude each other, nobody should have the best of both worlds unless compromising on both with a balanced build; but speed bonus, pierce damage and low Str requirements allow a build to specialize in high damage attacks, attack speed, movement speed and tanking all at once which makes zero sense in terms of gameplay. Well, at least it keeps me off the servers and playing Europe 1300 or native (people can only spam you if they're BETTER than you there :O it's a strange feeling lol).
At the moment you can crutch spammy agility builds and crutch +3 plate armour sets at the same time, the 2 options should exclude each other
add STR requirement for shields alsoSo you want a guy with 30/9 10 if 10 ps 10 shield skill? It has been mentioned countless times and it is a terrible idea.
now you can wear Steel Shield(weight: 11.5) without any problems even if your str is 3
make its effectiveness depends on STR instead of AGI> no agi shield whoring
Actually when I wear heavy armor I lose 90% of the speed advantage I had before and it isn't as great as you guys make it seem...
Actually when I wear heavy armor I lose 90% of the speed advantage I had before and it isn't as great as you guys make it seem...
15/24
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says the HA...
STR gives better hp ---> useful with armor.
I lold.
I lold.Combined with some ironflesh it really boosts the survivability. Why did you find it so funny?
how did agi builds got nerfed?
Min-maxers wearing Lordly medium armor and Lordly Heavy Gauntlets are more problematic than 24+ Agi folks wearing full plate.
you dipshit, I had a lordly axe and 27 STR and still I needed 7 hits to kill you.
Moron.
Worst footwork ever if that's true
Or otherwise, buff StrenghPanos, what are you talking about? :o
Motivate people to go for 15 STR and above
Some quick examples that come in mind..
Each powerstrike point above 5, gives 15% more damage insread of 8%
and
Each ironflesh point abonve 5, gives 4 hp instead of 2
Panos, what are you talking about? :o
Buffing str builds like that would be a disaster, I don't even think they need a buff at all, STR vs AGI seems like pretty balanced choice right now.
Also, what Gurni said and what I've been saying too: wearing heavy armour with agi build is a waste. You're much deadlier in rugs as an agi build.
Seriously, I feel like my setup (build + equipment) is OP enough already.
(Funny though how Agi-builded Panos says STR needs a buff while I being Str-builded say it doesn't :mrgreen:)
I play 30-9 with 7IF 2h Mw Danish Greatsword and sometimes I really hit hard but sometimes it's incredibly slow and seems to require more hits than it used to, dunno maybe the wpf penalty is greater. I currently have exactly 100wpf in 2H. I tried playing with a Mallet but I suck and am so slow and defenceless against 1h spam I just dropped it. Seems like Flamberge works best due to it's length
Nope I meant prpavi for example
I am from NA so it may be different here than EU, but I recently started wearing heraldic transitional armor on a 15/27 Long Axe character I have and I have to say it actually makes agi whoring way easier. I have 9 ATH so even with that heavy armor I outrun most people and the long axe is fast enough that the wpf difference is not noticeable at all.
TL;DR Yes because I can agi whore and tank long enough to get easy valor.
Here, dear crpg folk, we have an honest man who doesn't conceal the truth out of the fear of getting nerfed. He surely deserves a round of heartfelt applause.
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Each powerstrike point above 5, gives 15% more damage insread of 8%wat, so basically anyone with 8PS will oneshot other people, sure lets bring the mod back to 2011, i love robocops cutting down anything that isnt plated in one hit.
and
Each ironflesh point abonve 5, gives 4 hp instead of 2
You would be surprised at how many people call me dishonest :wink:
Also, Sig :mrgreen:
Yeah, because a lot of players have 24> STR nowadays :wink:
Ive seen you aswell Gravoth, running around in your mighty Varangopoulos armour, endlessly spamming you LWA.
please...
I used that armour like 1 map, i should trade it away since its just collecting dust, but i keep it because i want the option to go plate.
Does it even matter that i used it? Did i do so well that i should be locked out of the option of getting a bit more tanky?
I fail to see the reasoning on why an agility based build should have the option to wear plate.
How is agi-plate any different?
Any change you make to the game 'removes variety' by being different, where's my variety-based right to be 45/3 with 112 wpf in Pole? xD It was removed cos it was a daft idea, and i dont think anyone honestly complained about it, but in theory it removed variety cos i could have had a decent-attack-speed Str whore before the patch, or i could have gone 20 pole 80 xbow and hybridised, or i could have done any number of things. But that doesn't stop it being a daft mechanic that was put right. How is agi-plate any different?
Any change you make to the game 'removes variety' by being different, where's my variety-based right to be 45/3 with 112 wpf in Pole? xD It was removed cos it was a daft idea, and i dont think anyone honestly complained about it, but in theory it removed variety cos i could have had a decent-attack-speed Str whore before the patch, or i could have gone 20 pole 80 xbow and hybridised, or i could have done any number of things. But that doesn't stop it being a daft mechanic that was put right. How is agi-plate any different?
On an unrelated note you seem very invested on being able to equip plate with no Str though, i thought you said it wasn't viable so why do you care so much? For someone who says it's total waste of agility to equip heavy armour you seem to be taking this suggestion quite personally xD
Its not limiting, it`s diversing the skills even more than nowWhat? But it is limiting? Agi plate is barely used as it is anyways. I only remember leshma playing as agi plate (i think he was 15 str) and that was a long time ago. It's just removing the option of using plate, its not really balancing anything.
I only remember leshma playing as agi plate (i think he was 15 str) and that was a long time ago.
On an unrelated note you seem very invested on being able to equip plate with no Str though, i thought you said it wasn't viable so why do you care so much? For someone who says it's total waste of agility to equip heavy armour you seem to be taking this suggestion quite personally xDWhy? Well it's very simple: I use the transitional heraldic armour for the same reason I use a heavy round shield and that sexy motherfucking heraldic barbed warhorse. My gear has only one single goal and thst is looking sexy as fuck. If you take my sex appeal from me I'll come to your house and rape your mother, sister, dog and goldfish.
In which case you'd have no problem with investing the necessary attributes to be able to wear it again whatever the change, so there's no problem.Yes I would, but I would be fucking mad because I would be forced to change my build to an average fucking balanced build. That's also the reason why I didn't want the STR nerf at all, before the STR nerf I was special while now most people are already faster than me (my polearms slow me down a ton)
As much as i like ya No_Rules and would rather not harm your build and ability to wear sexy armour (sexiness important), awlpike-using heraldic trans wearers are the epitome of leaping around wearing essentially plate, cos that offers some beast armour, especially if loomed and/or combined with decent gloves. If surrounded you can just spin and stab whilst they glance glance glance. Exactly the type of build that gets the best of both worlds; speed, damage, glancing.Seriously, I probably will be selling my ashwood pike soon because with armour, a heavy round shield and an aswhood I am too slow to run and too slow to lower my shield and attack. And if I finally manage to attack, my ps is too low to actually get through anything that isn't low armour.
For me, who considers light kuyak a heavy armour (imo light: 0-20, medium 21-40, heavy 41-51, plate 52+), kinngrimm is an agi build with heavy armour. (also any modification would probably screw him over since it would bring the kuyak to over 12 str.do it anyways if it would then balance out armor crutchers as you think i would be one :rolleyes:
I would be all up for this change.
2 out of 3 players want to increase the difficulty requirements on medium heavy tier armours.
The community has spoken
Wait, the community is listened to in order to change the mod?
It's more like 3 out of 4, 75%.
Seriously, over 100 people have now voted 'yes' on the poll, and taken around 75% of the vote, what more does it take to have an idea acknowledged or looked at?
I was just getting mad because all my weapons are so useless with my transitional, put on a brigandine over aketon and had up to 10 kills per death again on eu2. nuff said.
well because it's a good suggestion, but a horrible suggestion balance wise. It's also kinda obvious how little people actually are high agi characters, most people stayed with a balanced build anyway.
It's not exactly common for a poll to get over 100 votes in the poll in favour though these days is it? You think this community actually still has enough people on the forums to turn that 101 'Yes' into a minority if the rest all voted 'No'? xD
100 saying 'yes' doesnt automatically mean it's right, i mean, that should kinda go without saying i assumed we were all smart enough to realize that. If the crying majorities had their way on forums we'd have no ranged in the game at all xD so believe me i know exactly what community we're dealing with. But if so large a proportion of your playerbase say they want a specific tweak, something that can be easily defined rather than a vague mechanic or class-based QQ, then i think a dev should at the very least consider it.
100 'yes' votes should mean that it's read and taken seriously as something people want, as opposed to another vague 'NERF RANGED PLEASE' or 'TOTALLY CHANGE THIS MECHANIC TO SUIT ME' post where noone cares. It shouldnt, and wont, mean that it's automatically added next patch, but it should be taken into consideration as something that's easy to implement and that has overwhelming support.
*EDIT* And, I know it's really off topic here, but, has anyone actually seen Kaoklai upvote anything? lol
These high agi builds are only rarely main characters and usually are only used for trolling, take it from me: high armour isn't worth it. I even believe remembering that STR reduces armour weight penalty.
well because it's a good suggestion, but a horrible suggestion balance wise. It's also kinda obvious how little people actually are high agi characters, most people stayed with a balanced build anyway.
18/21 is a balanced build, no discussion.
Everybody? It's not because you played 18/21 once you can say if agibuilds are OP or not.
If 18/21 is agiwhore, then 21/18 is str crutch?
god dammit this thread is just a pile of biased bs
WAAAAAAAAAAAAA WAAAAAAAAAAAAAA PLEASE DONT NERF MY ABILITY TO SPAM WHILE I WEAR PLATE WAAAAAAAAAAAAA WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Anyways discussing vocabulary isn't productive. I believe we have come to consider builds with such a small difference between STR and AGI as "agiwhores" or "strwhores" precisely because the real agiwhores and strwhores have disappeared out of not being good builds at all. Do you guys still commonly use 12/30 or 30/12 ? Because I fucking don't.
I find 18/24 build to be an agi build, I played it and it definitely considered it to be and agi build despite 18 str
Most of the shielders out there are agi whores dude :lol:
Who ? Good luck trying to do anything with 4 PS and a 1h sword. It's possible with picks and maces though.
So for you, the only way to have a build which can be called balanced with a total of 42 attribute points is 21/21, and everything else is either called STR or AGI build ?
Kansuke , Kinngrimm, Hetman, Harpag, Corsair, Atas.
6 names that came to my mind without any heavy thinking.
You don't consider 18/24 to be an agi build?
Not really. The difference when you spectate people with 21/21 and 18/24 is quite subtle.
all of them either agi based, or agiwhores , I fail to see your point gravoth
What you really meant is this..Agi plate isnt really that good for spamming, maybe tanking an extra hit in a teamfight but with all the wpf lost from wearing heavy armour combined with not having any damage from low PS you'll just glance. Balanced/Str based builds have always been better for spamming since its more forgiving with the higher amount of hp and less glancing from high PS.QuoteWAAAAAAAAAAAAA WAAAAAAAAAAAAAA PLEASE DONT NERF MY ABILITY TO SPAM WHILE I WEAR PLATE WAAAAAAAAAAAAA WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Personally I'd say if you have at least 18 in STR and at least 18 in AGI, you have a balanced build.
I personally believe this is a part of a larger change that should occur, but this probably won't do much by itself.
So 18/27 is a balanced build, right?
18/27 is a "I don't care about skill points" build.
I have some other suggestion that can nerf Agility :mrgreen:
Add super-heavy anime armours that offer 100 armour and demand 24+ Str xD also buff every weapon accordingly and tamper with the soak formulas so this new armour isn't OP, then agi-builds can keep their old 'heavy armour' which would assume the effectiveness of the current medium armours due to weapon tweaks ;P all this without nerfing a single thing fufufu!
Nerf everything, every weapon should have the same swing animations. Remove high speed weapons. Nerf athletics to have a cap at 5, make plate 30 difficulty, nobody uses it anyways. Remove thrusts, remove ranged. Reduce crpg speed to slow and enable auto block, increase the length you are stunned after hitting a block so any sort of spam will be impossible.
And don't forget to overreact massively to a request that the armour difficulty is raised by 1 or 2 points, that's the most important thing. 'Heavy Armour difficulty up by 2 points!? Might as well make plate 30 difficulty and cap athletics at 5, herp derrp, cos those suggestions are clearly identical and equally as bad as raising difficulty by 2!'
When pick or some shit had it's difficulty raised by like 1 point were you on forums then saying 'variety is dead! Might as well make every weapon identical now, lower speed, auto-block, massive stun, QQ!! You've ruined agility forever! Stop Nerfing stuff!!!!!' ? On here you go consistently from 'it wont make any difference', 'nobody with those builds uses heavy armour anyway' to 'youll kill the mod and ruin everything!', well what do you actually think?
I really hope that was a sarcastic 'agi-my old friend' impersonation and not your real opinion, cos you've been so rational till now lol, and if that was real i'm going to have to use it as copy-pasta every time anyone suggests any change in the mod, no matter how tiny or potentially beneficial. Cos surprisingly you can say that exact same thing about anything, overreacting and listing awful suggestions as the 'natural progression' of their idea, you could probably post what you just posted without even reading what the topic was about because it's the Suggestions Corner, so your generic beef with 'change' could apply to any of the threads here.
Bonus argument :
- on strategus battles : plate armies are boring at end-game, if the armors needed more strenght to wield, the strategus leaders would be FORCED to keep a large place for light-medium armors even if everyone's rich as cresus, and the metagame would be much more balanced, fun, and fluid without item pricing changes!
3 out of 4, want an armour re tweak, please devs
I think armor really does need addressed, but I'd much rather do that in a different way.
You never even had below 6 powerstrike panos, that's still balanced.
According to you 18/21 is agiwhore, 21/18 is strengthcrutch and balancing doesn't exist.
Seriously, agility is really overpowered compared to strengthIs it? Define overpowered. Agility is strong in whose hands? Strength is weak in whose hands? What/how many different settings? With what types of equipment?
Is it? Define overpowered. Agility is strong in whose hands? Strength is weak in whose hands? What/how many different settings? With what types of equipment?
Agi OP? I've seen you play recently with your agi build but you are just hitting an even 1:1 KD, but with your str build you got 2:1..
It seems you don`t know the meaning of some words, let me help you.for most twohanders that's a lvl 27 build or something
Balanced build : 18 Agility 18 Strength
Agility Based Build : Str < Agi
Strength Based build : Str > Agi
Now, go wear your plate with 15 Strength.
for most twohanders that's a lvl 27 build or something
So you're suggesting that you shouldn't even be able to use a kuyak with 15 strength? :rolleyes:
Yes it is, I don`t know how things are in NA, but in EU we have a lot of min maxers, mostly 2handers, with loomed kuyaks and builds like 15/27 or 18/24 , who can 2hit everyone with their bonus damage, due to high athletics.
it was an example...A balanced build is when you don't really favor one of both but go for something in between. You don't need exactly the same amount of agi and str, they are not 'equal' anyway.
21/21 is a balanced build aswell
So you're suggesting that you shouldn't even be able to use a kuyak with 15 strength? :rolleyes:
Are you sure it's not actually that the way armor is balanced is the issue, not the strength requirements? :)
I wanted to point out that I get 2hitted from agility builds, due to hideous speed bonus damage.So how does one conclude from this, that the problem is armor? (I agree, armor is problematic, but I think your reasoning for this conclusion is flawed)
Is it? Define overpowered. Agility is strong in whose hands? Strength is weak in whose hands? What/how many different settings? With what types of equipment?
Pros of using a STR build with a lot of IF and plate armour
1. Survivability (8 to 10 hits??)
2. You can two hit the majority of the players
Cons of using a STR build with a lot of IF and plate armour
1. Slow as fuck
2. If left alone, it is almost certain that you`ll get ganked
3. Everyone can outswing you
4. Easy target for ranged due to the lack of ATH
5. Loss of hit damage due to no speed bonus
Pros of using an agi based build with some IF and plate
1. Survivability, (5-6 hits??)
2. Good bonus damage due to hight speed
3. Can outswing most
4. Can easily avoid ranged, but still having the safety of plate armour
5. Can easily escape a mob who hunts him
Cons of using an agi based build with some IF and plate
1. :?
2. :?
3. :?
I never understood why the mod favours spam and agility that much, for real.
All the exaggeration...
exaggeration because you don`t agree with it.
But sadly for you, you are the one fourth.
Cons of using an agi based build with some IF and plate
1. :?
2. :?
3. :?
So how does one conclude from this, that the problem is armor? (I agree, armor is problematic, but I think your reasoning for this conclusion is flawed)
Sure man, keep believing you know it all and keep forgetting to add that heavy armour fucks up your moving speed which then fucks up your damage output and footwork.
That shit is so biased, most of the cons for str are all due to speed being low so:
STR pros
High damage
High health
Uses armor effectively due to high health
Cons
Slow movement
Slightly lower swing speed : SLIGHTY??? Yeah right :lol:
Cant hybrid
AGI pros
High movement speed (can escape easily)
Decent damage due to speed
Slightly faster swings
Can hybrid with high WM
Cons
Low health so dies in 2-3 good hits : Even a player with a loomed kuyak and some gloves can survive more than that, let alone an agility plate user
More movement speed more better (the lighter the armour the more effective you become) : but the thing is that the penalty when you have high athletics, is not visible, you still can out speed most in lighter gear but with less athletics :lol:
Movement speed does jack shit in clusterfucks : you can escape easy
So basically strapping on a ton of plate gives you some teamfight potential but then you can barely run away, you lose speed bonus damage and less wpf while a str tincan still has high damage and tanks like a mothertrucker.
The only reason im fighting for plate to stay as it is is because there is no point in removing it from agi whores. Having options open for you is fun, sometime maybe i wanna plate up and spam instead of sitting on the outskirts of the fight trying to pick people off.
I wonder why all of you agility whores don`t want a change in the armour req`s, since you claim that agi build + heavy armour fucks up your build..Playing with light armor is NOT fun right now. Simply lowering armor values right now, without doing anything else, would make agi melee nearly unbearable. Very few people can play(and enjoy) melee with an agi build using sub 40 armor values. Both ranged, and teamwounds, tear you to pieces. Having half the melee on the server lower their armor by 20, would have drastic side effects. You cannot think of it as simply playing with that equipment in our current meta game.
Yes I indeed wonder why :lol:
They made their choice to be weak, I fail to see where`s the problem.My point is, you're not thinking about this enough, about what the effects would actually be, about what the real problem actually is.
...Contrary to popular belief, weight penalties have a larger negative affect on actual effectiveness(pertaining to wpf) to those with high amounts of wpf, than anyone else.
Playing with light armor is NOT fun right now. Simply lowering armor values right now, without doing anything else, would make agi melee nearly unbearable. Very few people can play(and enjoy) melee with an agi build using sub 40 armor values. Both ranged, and teamwounds, tear you to pieces. Having half the melee on the server lower their armor by 20, would have drastic side effects. You cannot think of it as simply playing with that equipment in our current meta game.
Are we playing the same game ? Isn't it logical that more wpf you got, more wpfs you will get with weight's penalties ? I did experiment that multiple times, with a STF 27/12 with ~ 130 wpf, and a agi whore 15/24, ~ 170 wpf, and it's obvious for me that my str char with low wm was effectively much slower to hit than my agi whore. Even if you lose tons of wpf from weight, you'll still be able to do the same ammount of damages with a agi build A as a strengh build B with 8 PS, of course, with speed bonus, and damages from wpf. I'm fine with balance, it's just disturbing when you talk about realism when you see people sprinting with plates and outrunning archers.
Don't forget, the weight penalty is (weight_after_modifiers - 10) ^ 1.12. Then for ranged you have the wpf per PD/PT reduction, a 1.5x multiplier for crossbows(but this doesn't affect damage) and for melee you have...So we have a percentile reduction, which means x weight_penalty will have a larger numerical reduction as wpf increases. Furthermore, each individual point of wpf counts for a larger percent of your total damage, as wpf values increase past 100.
(abs((2*weight penalty)/3 - 100) * wpf)/100
meaning the penalty is applied as a percent.
About drastic affects... do you remember how it was in native? Do you remember max armor rating in native mp? Super dreadnought its local crpg tradition, this armors and some fantasY weapons made current meta game unstable and almost broken. Same with broken upkeep idea.Going past armor value differences, cRPG has also significantly changed the soak/reduce values as well.
Although one thing the Donkey Head April Fool showed me is that players i previously believed to be good, suck with low armour
Is it only me who still thinks agi builds in heavy armour are useless? :|I am using an heavy armor Macropus.
Can anybody name a few players doing well with agi build and heavy armour?
Agi builds who wear heavy armor are the greatest idiocy of m&bAnd so i am, as well, the most idiot guy here. :(
Playing with light armor is NOT fun right now. Simply lowering armor values right now, without doing anything else, would make agi melee nearly unbearable. Very few people can play(and enjoy) melee with an agi build using sub 40 armor values. Both ranged, and teamwounds, tear you to pieces. Having half the melee on the server lower their armor by 20, would have drastic side effects. You cannot think of it as simply playing with that equipment in our current meta game.
Look at how people play with those builds right now. They play very passively, they play safe, they don't fight in the heart of the mobs, they fight on the outsides. If you do not have people to fill the center, or your center is made out of paper, what do you think will happen? How will people react to this? There can be only 2 outcomes. 1, they'll scatter and you'll have significantly smaller groups of conflict. 2(and much more likely), people will get just enough strength to return to our current status quo. Why? Well why do the min/maxers use those armors to begin with? Because they provide the best survivability, with the least penalty on pub servers.
Judging from your analysis, one would conclude that plate is most beneficial for agility builds, rather than strength. If thats the case, does that mean strength builds benefit the most from lower weight armors, or does agility get the most out of all armor values, all the way down to bare skin?
Regardless, I don't think you've thought about the questions I previously asked, well enough, so here's some more.
Is strength or agility better when...These are the types of questions you should be asking. Now a days, when I think about the answer to these, one theme tends to shine through. Overall, strength is no better than agility. In many situations, strength is clearly superior, in others, agility is superior. 6 months ago, had I asked these questions, strength would have been the clear winner.
- Everyone has plate armor
- Everyone has medium armor
- Everyone has low armor
- It's a siege
- It's a battle
- It's a strategus battle/siege
- Team stack(s) are present
- The server is mostly randoms
- It's a 1v1
- It's a 5v5
- it's a 30v30
- There is a low amount of ranged on
- There is a high amount of ranged on
- There is a low amount of cav on
- There is a high amount of cav on
- The map has a lot of hills
- The terrain is mostly flat
I am using an heavy armor Macropus.Are you an agi build though? I thought you're 21-21. :o
But maybe i am useless :)
This.
Seriously stop nerfing weapons.
-People are going higher level.
-Higher levels = More stats
-AGI is far more superior over STR as you know.
-Speed bonus is terribly fucked up (1H on heavy armored horse,riding medium speed hits you (50+ body armor,50+ head armor both +3 with 21 str 5 IF ) boom 1 hit.
That is why AGI is OP,speed bonus! So as people level up they are just maxing agi while giving STR just to the requirement of stuff they wanna use.
So here it is, our problem is not 97 speed polearm, our problem is, speed bonus increasing damage like a maniac while power strike only adds %8.
Do not diagnose the problem wrong, if you diagnose it wrong you'll try wrong treatment which will eventually kill the patient which is cRPG in this case.
Normalizing speed bonus probably requires too much work with hard coding stuff. Same probably goes to buffing STR and or nerfing AGI.
So we have a very very easy solution right before our eyes !
Adding a new motive for people to use less AGI and more STR, increasing requirements !
This mod requires 15 STR for basically everything. You can use an axe,sword,mace,blunt,plate armor whatever the fuck you want with 15 str and since going above it does not reward you much, people put the rest into AGI.
We have level 36 people in this mod. You can make 18-27 build with this. Warband is probably designed not to level up that high without singleplayer skills. That's why speed bonus goes insane at 18+ AGI. Devs didn't think that people would put that much agi so they didn't even test it probably. This is a bleeding wound in this mod and being tried to cure by rendering weapons useless for years...
Please open your eyes and see the problem correctly.
AGI=
Mov speed
Attack speed
Less repairs
Absurd damage due to mov speed bonus
STR=
%10 more health with over 5 IF
???
Suggestion :
Add every item flat +6 STR requirement.
Flat, +6 no exceptions !
Wanna use great maul ? GET 26 STR first !
Wanna use long axe ? Get 18 STR first !
Wanna go for plate ? 22 STR !
Longsword ? 16 STR !
Morningstar ? 20 STR !
Great Bardiche ? 24 STR !
Long Hafted Blade ? 21 STR !
Any of these sound too hard to achieve for you ?
Why would i get 24 STR where my weapon only requires 12 ? GIVE PEOPLE A REASON !
I'm sorry, but that's bullshit. This whole post. :|
double post :DThis
I think increasing the weight like that would be bad. It requires way more careful planning.
Would be best to just say : Gothic Plate with Bevor = 20 difficulty.
And scale every weight up according to that "most difficult" item.
Since the Great Maul difficulty increase to 20, it would go hand in hand with this.
I'm sorry, but that's bullshit. This whole post. :|
To anyone who think agi is so OP - make an agi build and have fun.
I've played a 15-30 2h for a long time. I've played 21-24 polearm for quite a long time as well.
Now, being a 24-18 polearm I don't feel I'm at any disadvantage compared to agi builds, it's pretty balanced as it is.
Ehmhmhmmmmm... what?
Lelelelele all those builds I bet have atleast 6 ath and 6 wm , use a real fucking str build
Ehmhmhmmmmm... what?
Sure if I got 18 agi, it means I have 6 ath and wm as an infantry build. What's your point?
My point is those aren't pure strength builds, you cant pop into a discussion about str builds and not play a pure str build, if it was a pure str build there wouldn't be any ath or wm.
I did 27/12 ~2 weeks back in heavy armour. 25 kills and 2 deaths over 5-6 rounds. I can't believe anyone find agility builds wearing heavy armour a pain compared to this tanking awesomeness. Almost completely ignore most of the damage dealt to you since you have shit-ton of HP and armour.
What if I tell you... that STR build is a build that has noticeably more STR than AGI. For example: 24-18, 24-15, 21-15, 33-6.
My point is those aren't pure strength builds, you cant pop into a discussion about str builds and not play a pure str build, if it was a pure str build there wouldn't be any ath or wm.
If agi-plate/heavy armour is so gimped, why oppose an increase to armour difficulty?
If agi-plate/heavy armour is so gimped, why oppose an increase to armour difficulty?
Why yes, yes i am, infact i often suspect i'm the only one xD
Perhaps it was worded badly though, my point was that the only objections i hear on this thread to increasing the difficulty, come from people who claim that agi-heavy armour is a useless build anyway. In which case my question is, if it's so useless, why do you care if it gets removed? In that regard isnt that like someone objecting to pole-stagger being removed after claiming 'I have never noticed pole stagger to be useful'.
The arguments are always half: ''It's not even any good, nobody uses these builds, why are you QQing about it?''
And half: ''You'll kill this mod and all variety because everyone loves those builds''
They are incompatible points, please just argue one or the other, or pick one argument each.
Exactly, and weapon stats/difficulties have been changed from time to time (in ways that have seriously forced players to change their builds or weapons of choice), where has been the public outcry from this? There's been very little cos the majority understand the changes and adapt.
This outcry about changing anything to do with armour seems strange based on the constant re-tweaking of weapons, i had always assumed that peoples builds were far more dependent on the weapons they could use than on obsessing over maxing armour, or crying that the top tier armours are no longer available to them when top tier gloves already arent, that's what i mean by internal consistency.
Well... i say 'outcry', there only seem to be 2 people who actively oppose this change, and i bet once it's made they'll forget all about it the same way they dont currently spend sleepless nights wishing they could wear Heavy Gauntlets with 16 Str.
Gravoth is new GTX. Takes every suggestion personal and defends the default by insulting people with new ideas :lol: great !
When you grow up a lil, I hope you start countering ideas with your own ideas instead of posting bullshit you rager fanboy .
Well that's certainly not twisting my words.(click to show/hide)
This outcry about changing anything to do with armour seems strange based on the constant re-tweaking of weapons, i had always assumed that peoples builds were far more dependent on the weapons they could use than on obsessing over maxing armour, or crying that the top tier armours are no longer available to them when top tier gloves already arent, that's what i mean by internal consistency.Gloves already provide a good variety to me, Plate mittens do the job well enough with good looks aswell. But again like ive said before, removing options that have no real reason to be removed is just something i cant grasp, whats the point if not for balance purposes?
(click to show/hide)
So what you are saying is that i shouldnt defend anything even if i consider it to be wrong? I should agree with everything without expressing my own opinion? I have stated my arguements multiple times already, but maybe you are just too blind to see them.You have a problem understanding what you read.
Also it doesnt seem like you are any better, telling me to grow up and calling me a rager fanboy (fanboy of what, where did this come from?.. wtf..). Go back to str crutching.
I think Armour difficulty doesnt really change the balance of the game currently, and i think that's my problem with it and why i would see it raised.
I agree with you in that the requirements at the moment are so low and largely irrelevant that they might as well remove the difficulty if they dont plan to increase it, as it currently has little/no bearing on balance.
I think making heavy armor better, making it linked with ironflesh for difficulty and removing the bonus HP from ironflesh could work balance-wise, but it would hurt variety.
You have a problem understanding what you read.
Read underlined parts again
"Gravoth is new GTX. Takes every suggestion personal and defends the default by insulting people with new ideas :lol: great !
When you grow up a lil, I hope you start countering ideas with your own ideas instead of posting bullshit you rager fanboy ."
If you still think those mean that u shouldnt defend anything even if u consider it to be wrong. u should agree with everything without expressing your own opinion? I guess you need more time ...
fanboy
A passionate fan of various elements of geek culture (e.g. sci-fi, comics, Star Wars, video games, anime, hobbits, Magic: the Gathering, etc.), but who lets his passion override social graces.
Im not even a STR crutcher, I don't want this change because It'll grant me any benefit,it'll actually fuck my build up (21-21). Just want this addition because current system is bullshit but you are so blinded by your love to cRPG (That's where you being a fanboy kicks in) you don't value any suggestion that's gonna change your beloved mod and as a result you react harshly and irrational.
I do not think that heavy armour needs to be made more effective, like you said it is not objectively 'better' but suits a certain playstyle. One that i personally find to be a little too easy. I rarely use it due to upkeep however (factors like difficulty and upkeep should not be used to balance OP items, but i do find they dictate the choices i make more than they are often given credit for).
Increasing the difficulty on it makes it more of a specialised playstyle where certain requirements must be met, same as heavy weapons or throwing lances.
If i were the type to care about K/D, with my level now if i didnt given looms away on every minor whim i have, i could be 18/27 with 79 body armour, 9 athletics and over 170 wpf. Game=broken.
I'm done with this thread for now
A massive +1. too easy for Agi whores to run around in high teir armour, there are nearly no advantages to being a STR whore anymore.
Plus speed bonus needs to be reduced
i thnk speed penalty should be more effective im against all requirements. you just need to suck at something you didnt put skills on.
I don't see 12 and 15 str users as the problem, I see armor effectiveness as the problem. Because of that, raising requirements wouldn't actually address the issues I have with armor and would instead create unnecessary, unforeseen side-effects.
I WEAR PLATE ARMOUR, I RIDE A TANK HORSE, A ONE HIT PEOPLE WITH A GREAT LANCE, I HAVE A SHIELD AND A 1H SWORD AND ALL THAT WITH JUST 15 STRENGTH.
TOTAL BALANCE
I think it would be great if like Byjnja and nordic helmet were like the best armour in the game, and also the lightest, and that if you wore them you would get a bonus 200% to damage, but only if you have like 0 athletics or something.My point is there currently isn't a advantage in using heavy srmour with little strength. Yes you survive longer and I maxed thst out with 5 if, but there is the speed reduction too and once dusmounted I can do nothing but walk bsck and forth. I have 8 athletics, so I really feel that. Especially in combination with little dmg output.
Buff what i use!
'tanky'? Well maybe more than a guy in rags, but a str guy in the same armour certainly is even more.I have the perfect solution for you: Don't get dismounted.
'faster'? Barely, the guy with a str build will have less speed reduction and you can be sure, there isn't much difference anymore.
You still forget the dmg output, which sucks.
When I am dismounted from my horse I am often ganked and have too little speed to make an opening and too little dmg output to defend myself. What does a few more hits mean if the 'agi guy in heavy armour' can't even fight back? The problem with your argumentation is that you only talk about agi guys becoming 'tanky', while you forget that the other two variables don't make this extra armour worth using.
'faster'? Barely, the guy with a str build will have less speed reduction and you can be sure, there isn't much difference anymore.
I was dismounted and got spammed the shit out of me by you and your flamberge.
I wanna have wear heavy armour to be somewhat tanky.
I wanna still be fast as fuck though.
Also I still wanna be able to ride my horse.
And I want to have a huge damage output.
1 FastI think you are overestimating the powers of my build, my damage output is only high because I am using a great lance which also has some serious downsides. And indeed, I want to be able to wear heavy armour when I'm using a heavy horse. At lvl 31, the only possible pure cav build to use heavy horses is 15/24. Forcing people with high agi to use lighter armour will result in people on chargers riding around wearing cloth.
2 Able to wear heavy armour
3 Obviously riding the horse
4 Huge damage output
First of all, are we talking about top speed or acceleration on foot? With 7 athletics I'm consistently faster in Gothic Plate than most EU1 players, it doesn't slow you down that much. The acceleration is slower though which makes footwork harder especially in ganks.Indeed, the acceleration is the most important part of being fast. Unless when you are an S-keyer ofcourse.
If you get spammed by a flamberge you've done something seriously wrong, even if you have 1wpf...
I already mentioned a thousand times before I want to use the transitional because it looks fucking awesome. I am just trying to say that the extra armour you get already isn't worth the speed reduction combined with your already low dmg output.
I think you are overestimating the powers of my build, my damage output is only high because I am using a great lance which also has some serious downsides. And indeed, I want to be able to wear heavy armour when I'm using a heavy horse. At lvl 31, the only possible pure cav build to use heavy horses is 15/24. Forcing people with high agi to use lighter armour will result in people on chargers riding around wearing cloth.
Level: 31
Strength: 18
Agility: 24
Skill to attr: 12
Power Strike: 6
Riding: 8
Weapon Master: 6
using cRPG NewGen calc (http://alpha-lider19.ru/MB)
Increasing the armour requirements would mean less Tincans on Elephants yes.No, increasing armour requirements will lead to peasants on elephants. 18/24 is possible if you decide not to put anything in wm or if. Ffs, wasn't cav nerfed enough already?
Exactly, there will be ONE SINGLE FUCKING BUILD left for heavy cav at lvl 31. Great thinking...Code: [Select]Level: 31using cRPG NewGen calc (http://alpha-lider19.ru/MB)
Strength: 18
Agility: 24
Skill to attr: 12
Power Strike: 6
Riding: 8
Weapon Master: 6
Do I want to be viable on horseback AND on foot,That's exactly why I decided to go hybrid, I'm equal to a lvl 31 build both on foot and on horseback but I am able to play both pretty fine. If that's your argument, I don't know anymore... Should I be unable to use heavy armour because I am both strong on foot and on horseback, because I chose to go to lvl 35 for extra riding while all other people were telling me I was destroying my build?
But like I said. Do not get dismounted.Have you played cav yet? You seem like you don't have any idea how it feels to be followed through whole the map by a horsearcher who is just putting one arrow at a time in the ass of your horse... But, let's make sure I can't use heavy armour so he can just shoot the peasant on top of the elephant right?
Anyone who says heavy armour with 6+ athletics is slow, needs to play a Str build or a peasant to remind themself that it really isnt.
No, increasing armour requirements will lead to peasants on elephants. 18/24 is possible if you decide not to put anything in wm or if. Ffs, wasn't cav nerfed enough already?
And 18/24 is definitely possible. You will, however, not have any IF, Ath and only 3 weapon master. But with a 1h 3 weapon master is enough. And with a Great Lance wpf does not matter much anyway.
So you have to decide:
Do I want to be viable on horseback AND on foot,
or
Do I wanna go Heavy Armour on Elephant with nice damage output but slow as hell on foot?
RoyanssYeah, and neither of them uses a heavy horse. They are using arabian horses.
Oberyn
THIS 10000 FUCKING TIMES, ADD SOME PENALTIES TO THE AGILITY HEROES ALREADY.
Wait, so you also think that because I am a lvl 35 hybrid instead of a lvl 35 tank I shouldn't be able to play both infantery and cavalry? What the fuck...
What are you talking about? If you are level 35 you can easily have both high agi and high strength anyway and if the armor requirements are increased you'd still be able to use plate armor on plate horse. Maybe not the heaviest plate (imo it should be 20+ req), but your Transitional for sure.
The devs don't want people to be good-at-everything hybrids. The only thing in this mod right now that works as a full hybrid without any drawbacks is Xbow/melee. All others have to be bad at something. Nerf that and we're all treated the same. Cavalry used to be easy to hybrid with 5 riding. You only needed two more levels than a similar infantry build. If they had given us a better respec I wouldn't have any problem with the requirement change.
Your level 35 would have no ironflesh and only two shield skill.And again, NEW PLAYERS DONT GET TO LVL 35. And even then, YES I see a problem with nerfing a hybrid that doesn't need a fucking nerf. I am pointing out that your 'fixes' would fuck up hybrids and you suddenly start claiming they deserve it?
Do you see people crying that they can't use a Yumi on Plated Charger until they reach level 33? Or that you can't use a flamberge with a 12/30 build? It's perfectly fine to limit some options in this game to keep it both balanced and varied.But it is NOT perfectly fine to limit heavy cav only to people who are high level. It's not because cav got insane riding requirement now that you should also make them unable to use some fitting gear, having to offer all your ironflesh and 2 wm to play cav at lvl 31 IS NOT OKAY.
No, increasing armour requirements will lead to peasants on elephants. 18/24 is possible if you decide not to put anything in wm or if. Ffs, wasn't cav nerfed enough already?
I am not quite sure you are aware of what armour you could wear with 15 strength. If you call medium armour peasant then you seriously need to overthink how much you value armour
Exactly, there will be ONE SINGLE FUCKING BUILD left for heavy cav at lvl 31. Great thinking...
And that is a very decent build. What is the problem? If you wanna go cav, just level up a bit further than 31. Takes dedication I know, but what is the problem with this?
That's exactly why I decided to go hybrid, I'm equal to a lvl 31 build both on foot and on horseback but I am able to play both pretty fine. If that's your argument, I don't know anymore... Should I be unable to use heavy armour because I am both strong on foot and on horseback, because I chose to go to lvl 35 for extra riding while all other people were telling me I was destroying my build?
I honestly do not know what your problem is. Level 35 you can get the following:
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
If you want some shield or IF then go 6 power strike. That way you have an extra 7 skill points to spend.
This build is definitely great both on horseback and on foot.
I already choose every round if I want to be good on foot or on horseback by deciding what armour I use. If I choose the heavy armour, I know I won't last long if I get dismounted. When I want to play infantery, I know I need light gear to (ab)use my builds strengths.
With the above posted build you would have 7 ath. And if you cannot last on foot with a Transitional and 7 ath and 24 agi then you gotta practice that. Like I said, I can do perfectly fine with 23 weight armour and I have only 21 agi with 7 ath.
Have you played cav yet? You seem like you don't have any idea how it feels to be followed through whole the map by a horsearcher who is just putting one arrow at a time in the ass of your horse... But, let's make sure I can't use heavy armour so he can just shoot the peasant on top of the elephant right?
Yes, in fact, I used my STF, so only level 30 for cav. Did not use a heavy horse though, because they are way inferior to an Arab Warhorse anyway. And no, I do not keep getting shot by Horse Archers and Foot Archers, because, the solution is fairly simple, you do not run around between enemy archers unless they are distracted. But if I get chased by a Horse Archer then yes, it is incredibly difficult to not die/get your horse killed.
And if the Horse Archer is shooting your horse rather than you, no matter what armour you use, then he is doing it wrong anyway. Especially when you are using a heavy horse.
Again, what the actual fuck do are you talking about? Hybrids aren't good at everything, they are moderate at everything and there is NO REASON at all why the devs wouldn't want people to play them.
Now you are talking about the fact that your old cav hybrid got fucked? Well boohoo, that doesn't mean that I can't play one.
And again, NEW PLAYERS DONT GET TO LVL 35. And even then, YES I see a problem with nerfing a hybrid that doesn't need a fucking nerf. I am pointing out that your 'fixes' would fuck up hybrids and you suddenly start claiming they deserve it?
But it is NOT perfectly fine to limit heavy cav only to people who are high level. It's not because cav got insane riding requirement now that you should also make them unable to use some fitting gear, having to offer all your ironflesh and 2 wm to play cav at lvl 31 IS NOT OKAY.
What no rules fails to see, is that players who invest in agility have it all in their plate.visitors can't see pics , please register or login
15/24 : 8 Riding, 8 athletics, 5 IF, 5PS, I dont know how much shield skill you have, you can use a great lance that one hits people AND be a very effecient shielder when you get dismounted.
You can be tanky, and still be faster than a STR based character...
You shitlords keep repeating that agility is bad with heavy armour.
THEN WHY THE FUCK DO YOU USE IT THEN? Are you masochists?
Why the fuck do you want c-rpg to be a plate/spam fest? I`m sick and tired of players like phase, Running around with their coat of plates armour and 8 athletics doing never ending spam not giving a fuck about getting hit because of their armour protection.
God, you pricks are the cancer of the mod, always wanting to abuse something to feel great.
Don`t forget to wipe your tears.
And also, no, new players do not get to level 35. But IF a new players decides to go HEAVY ARMOUR and ELEPHANT, then he needs to reevaluate whether that is a good decision anyway.You have no idea how fucking annoying it is to reply to your points if you format your post like this. I'll try anyway.
You yourself lead the clan that gives gear to new players because they cannot afford most stuff on their own. And you honestly expect them go choose the literally MOST EXPENSIVE class there is?
Please don't tell me you believe yourself there.
Your own build at 35 has the potential to be incredibly viable on horseback and at the same time when demounted, no matter what armour you use. So what is your problem? Since this is definitely not about new players.
1) Cav/inf hybrids suffered almost no penalties before. As I said, my 24/15 was less than two levels worse off than a 24/15 infantry build would be. That's not much. Now you can have a 15/24 build on lvl30 or 18/24 if you plan to go higher and need a heavy horse. That should be perfectly fine.1) Hybrids get no penalties? Do you even know what the fuck you are talking about? Are you comparing a lvl 35 hybrid to a lvl 31 hybrid? Hybrids are good all rounders, but that doesn't mean they are significantly weaker than players with the same level but who decided not to go with a hybrid. Doesn't matter if you are on foot or on horseback, you will always perform the same as a lvl 31 player. You just get a better chance of survival when you get dismounted, I think that isn't too much to ask considering I had to get to lvl 35 for it? I chose for fun because I wanted to play as much different 'classes' as possible, and now you are saying that it's OP to be average at multiple things?
2) No but it does mean I actually can't play mine at all without wasting 55Mxp. You on the other hand are complaining because this "nerf" that hasn't even happened would cause you not being able to use the heaviest armor, the heaviest horse, while having full iron flesh and maxed out athletics on one build.
3) Heavy armor on horseback is quite a lot more effective than on foot. The only real downside is the upkeep and imo upkeep is a bad method to balance things. So yes, I actually think heavy plate on horseback needs a nerf.
4) When doing a hybrid I think you should be forced to prioritize one part to be effective.
About this hybrid stuff..being slightly better in one role is nowhere near as effective as being good at 2 roles. Getting an extra PS or a bit more melee WPF is nothing compared to literally being able to drive into people with a horse for half the round with a melee counter, then get up and be melee. Same with ranged. Its much more effective to shoot guys then switch to melee when forced into it with minimal drawbacks in that roleAs said before, I'm not the only guy with lvl 35. There are also lvl 35 pure cav players and pure infantery players, they have the advantage over me in both cases.
Hybrids are a big issue with this game..you can't balance for it and it makes single characters too powerful in too many areas
You have no idea how fucking annoying it is to reply to your points if you format your post like this. I'll try anyway.
* Yes, medium armour isn't peasant armour. But don't you think that it's pretty logical that somebody on a tank horse should be able to wear fucking plate?
* There is only one single build, do you really believe that forcing people into one single direction and cutting out all other options is a good way? The whole point of this mod is variety and freedom to make your own fucking build. You won't get that variety and freedom if anybody wanting to use a heavy horse and fitting armour will have to pick one single build.
* Nice, there is a lvl 35 build that is viable as heavy cav. Did you notice that recently we are trying to make the game more open for new players? Restricting heavy cav to only high level players won't help a bit. I've never seen a lvl 35 new player.
* It's not because a player isn't lvl 35 yet that he shouldn't play cav "because it's too expensive"
Level 32
21 Strength
24 Agility
7 Power Strike
8 Riding
2 Weapon Masterhm.....eeee....nope
Helmet, glove, and boot difficulties would remain untouched.
A more lenient version of what I had before:
Gothic plate with bevor: 24
Milanese: 21
15 diff->18
14 diff->16
13 diff->14
Yep, let's hurt cav even more. It's not like the main reason why people play this game is because they want to be able to pick their own build, with tons of possible variations. You literally won't see any tincans on heavy horses anymore, unless they wanna have almost no wm at lvl 35.As if this formatting is any better...
With all respect, stop talking such bullshit please.(click to show/hide)
Both viable on foot and on horseback. With 5 or 6 Weapon Master. That gives you enough weapon proficiency for lances as well as one handed weapons.
Alternatively you can replace athletics with Iron Flesh or Shield.
You just gotta prioritise whether you want to be viable both on foot and on horseback, or focus on one of those.
I am polearmer and cav, and seriously there isn't anything more unneeded than this. Have you any idea how easy it is to stop a horse now? Have you any idea how weak the horses are now and how easily you get picked off by HA. Have you any idea how little plate armour on horseback means when you get couched and when all ranged just shoots your weak ass ('heavy') horse anyway?
If your horse constantly gets reared, then you are doing something seriously wrong.
If you constantly get shot off your horse, you are doing something seriously wrong.
If you constantly get couched, you are doing something seriously wrong.
If your horse constantly gets killed by enemy ranged, you are doing something seriously wrong.
In short: The way you play cav dooms you to die all the time.
Play more carefully, do not charge in like a headless chicken and you will notice that cav is not as nerfed as you think it is.
Be aware that what I said about difficulties is part of increasing the total armor of heavy body armor by 3 (along with the weight). For body armor, that counts for both body and legs. For a cav player at 15 strength, they would have access to higher armor for a cheaper price at the cost of being even slower on foot.
As if this formatting is any better...
Fine, will go back to quoting then if it is the same anyway.
* Stop showing me lvl 35 builds, I know that if you play 4 years that you might be able to get a decent build. That will make this game so much more fun for new players!
You complained that one cannot get a decent heavy cav build with a good amount of weapon master. I have proven you wrong by posting that build. Stop complaining when somebody replies to your crying.
* Yes your cav build is both viable on foot and on horseback, but you have to give up your ironflesh AND shieldskill for that..
Yes, because with BOTH you would literally have every single skill there is, apart from ranged. What the fuck is your problem? You want lots of riding. You want lots of athletics, you want lots of power strike, you want lots of iron flesh, you want lots of shield, you want lots of weapon master. Go level up to 40 then if you want to max out every skill there is! How fucking overpowered do you want to be?!
* Why do you so badly want me to choose only one of the both? I went fucking hybrid for a reason, unlike all you other tryhards crying when your extra powerstrike isn't enough to kill peasants yet.
I have already told you, there is a level 35 build that is perfectly viable as a cav/inf hybrid. Are you even reading my posts? Yes, build variations for a cav/inf hybrid are limited, but that is the case with every hybrid there is.
* I am saying I play as fucking piker and it's super easy to stop horses
Yes, and your point is? I play with a Long Spear and it is super easy to rear horses. If you are riding there is a super simple solution. Stay away from people with (long) pokey weapons.
* I'm not saying I get shot of my horse, I'm saying my horse gets shot away from under me. There is NOTHING you can do about a HA following you accross the map. Do you even fucking play cav?
As I have mentioned, yes I do play cav. In fact more than any other class recently.
Another simple solution: Stay away from enemy HA. If there is one following you, just ride to your team, they will help you, because they wanna kill that HA as well.
* I'm not saying I'm getting couched, I'm saying that your idea of plate being OP is just totally wrong
If somebody charges you full speed with a Great Lance, maybe even a loomed one, then of course you take a fuckton of damage. Speed bonus + 47 pierce, you do the math. (Quick advice: People already complain about 36 pierce Awlpikes doing an incredible amount of damage)
* Because when my horse gets killed by enemy ranged it's my fault right? Oh right, I should hide somewhere in a corner of the map! Maybe you are forgetting what 'ranged' means? They have these sharp sticks they can shoot at you, and if they hit you it kinda hurts because heavy horses are totally worthless these days. If ranged can choose between shooting infantery or your horse, you can be sure it's your horse they aim for.
Well, if Heavy Horses are useless, then why are you using them?
And there is a nice solution for this as well: When ranged is shooting you, ride away from them. With your speed the impact of the arrows will have less force, thus do less damage. Speed bonus being reduced immensely.
* Do you really think you can turn my words around to make me look like a total noob who knows nothing about his class/build? Oh right, because it's like you have been playing this game for suuuch a long time, especially battle right?
Damn you got me. I have been playing for only a year, and only a few months on battle.
The only flaw in that argument is that whenever I play level 30 cav I am getting decent scores, even when I get dismounted.
So, me being a right noob, getting good scores should prove you wrong, shouldn't it?
Just stop complaining about shit when there is nothing to complain about.Be aware that what I said about difficulties is part of increasing the total armor of heavy body armor by 3 (along with the weight). For body armor, that counts for both body and legs. For a cav player at 15 strength, they would have access to higher armor for a cheaper price at the cost of being even slower on foot.If anything it is a fucking BUFF for you.
No idea how you cannot understand that your complaints make absolutely no sense whatsoever.
No rules is one of those spoiled brats who want everything.
He wants to be good while mounted, wear plate, use a shield while dismounted AND still be faster than your average footman due to much more athletics :lol:
No rules, you keep repeating that an increase on the body armour requirements will kill heavy cav, but the truth is you don`t want that, because then you will have to sacrifiece something, either that be athletics or wm or IF to invest in more STR so you can use top tier armour.
Thats why agility was/is/will be OP compared to STR, because it offers a lot more gameplay variety with almost no penalties, while on the other hand STR based build are good for a couple of things only.
Now no rules, you can one hit people because of your great lance, and in case you get dismounted you can be a viable shielder, and thats bullshit.
You can either be good at one of the two OR, average at both.
Thats why agility was/is/will be OP compared to STR, because it offers a lot more gameplay variety with almost no penalties, while on the other hand STR based build are good for a couple of things only.So because I have the strengths of a lvl 31 build both at infantery and cav, you wouldn't call that average at both? How do you call a lvl 35 str crutching twohander then? I think you would call him good at twohanded and me average at both.
You can either be good at one of the two OR, average at both.
And regarding the "There is a lvl 35 'hybrid' you say? How can you be a cav/infantery hybrid if you don't even have enough wm and if to be viable at any of the two, especially infantery."Lol I just took hours to read your posts and reply to them
Since you do not even bother to read my posts I will just stop wasting my time now. Grow a pair and accept that "nerf" if it is going to happen. (If it makes you feel better, the pole sweetspot nerf was a huge drawback that made certain polearm builds a lot less viable than they used to be as well)
visitors can't see pics , please register or loginAs I have said (and argued) in this thread in the past, I don't believe raising str requirements is a good idea. That being said, your arguments are awful, no_rules. 1.2 k:d on that build is nothing but user error. I've played similar builds at level 30 (no shield skill, no iron flesh, and less WM), and done much, much better than that. Just because you don't perform well, doesn't mean there is a problem with hybrids. That's what we call anecdotal evidence, the lowest form of evidence to be provided.
As I have said (and argued) in this thread in the past, I don't believe raising str requirements is a good idea.Right. Better to increase the speed and amount of wpf per agi...
...
remember, as a agi build user you have to hit someone several times before he dies, on the otherhand a full str build kills someone in 1 or 2 hits. also AGI people have less health and always get killed by ranged and cav.
If a high agi build player needs to hit you 4+ times then he does not use the speed bonus properly.
High agility can also hit as hard as a high strength player if he uses his speed bonus. (Does happen often that I get hit by a low armour - short sword - fast as lightning guy for 50% of my health)
Also you are saying that archers prefer shooting the guy that runs 50mph rather than that one bloke who can barely take a step forward?
Played 18/27 build with 0 PS, killed plate wearers with katanas i picked up off the ground, it was damn easy
Played 18/27 build with 0 PS, killed plate wearers with katanas i picked up off the ground, it was damn easy.
The poll here says otherwise, people are keen for the extra variety that this would bring.
The poll here says otherwise, people are keen for the extra variety that this would bring.
Regardless of votes, arguing that an increase in STR requirements would bring extra variety is moronic.
of course it will, it will force people to distribute atribute points according to what they want to be.
Slow and tanky with a heavy armour
Fast and maneuverable with a low tier armour.
The only moronic thing is that agi based builds can be tanky with almost no penalties while on the other hand, STR builds can be tanky, but suffer tons of penalties.
For the sake of arguement, I`m gonna run a new poll, with the same question.
I love it how people claim that agiwhoring and plate is bad and no one uses it, yet they defend it with such a passion :lol:
of course it will, it will force people to distribute atribute points according to what they want to be.
Slow and tanky with a heavy armour
Fast and maneuverable with a low tier armour.
The only moronic thing is that agi based builds can be tanky with almost no penalties while on the other hand, STR builds can be tanky, but suffer tons of penalties.
For the sake of arguement, I`m gonna run a new poll, with the same question.
Actually ignore my post, I'm not going to get involved in this discussion.
Heskey, you're 45/3 build wearing mostly heavy armour that can't block, so I can't help but feel that you're somewhat biased when it comes to this. The only problem with increased survivability from very heavy armour is when it has no downsides, and that is only when you use it on horseback or don't lose movement speed from it (say hello to your build there, Heskey, though it at least doesn't have a bunch of free wpf anymore).
I love it how people claim that agiwhoring and plate is bad and no one uses it, yet they defend it with such a passion :lol:
I'd actually have a personal interest in increasing armor difficulty, as I don't use it anyway, and balanced builds with heavy armor are probably the toughest enemies for my build and playstyle.
Im actually wearing light armor with my main and sometimes, i use full plate, what i noticed is no big speed effect on my movements, im like 10 or 20% slower, for 5x survivability.Are you talking about the running speed or your acceleration? Most people here seem to confuse these 2 things. Armor doesn't affect your running speed too much (especially the so-called "sprint" speed), but it does significantly affect your maneuverability which is (and not the running speed) the main advantage athletics give you.
umm... due to recent wpf changes the average infantry man has 8 ath and wm too.
Just watch the battlefield.
First you change the wpf you'll get and basically force everyone into high wm/ath builds and now you wanna take away their armors? :lol:
A parallel world where this community had gotten used to no melee weapon having higher than 12-16 difficulty. And would argue to the death that increasing the difficulty of Great Long Bardiches and Greatswords to 18 would be the death of this mod.Nobody ever said the strength requirements for weapons are good, why do you think so many people are for removig requirements and just using penalties (eg for shields)?
You say agi builds with Great Long Bardiches are too strong, alright, let's take it as a given. Now what you propose is to restrict agi builds from using Great Long Bardiches instead of fixing the actual problem, saying that would increase the variety of weapons and builds.It is a bad example, as well as your whole argument is pretty bad.
But if AGI builds benefit too much from more damage, they would just again use the heaviest they can, will it be Long Hafted Blades or something else, the variety would stay the same.
How on earth, instead of fixing the problem, you think just doing "This is too strong, you can't use it from now" is better? I call it bullshit. If Great Long Bardiches agi builds are OP, nerf them. Don't restrict. Don't forget that STR builds are not restricted from using Scythes either. A 21-21 build with Great Long Bardiche is what you'd call an OP agi freak with crazy damage.
^ A parallel world where this community had gotten used to no melee weapon having higher than 12-16 difficulty. And would argue to the death that increasing the difficulty of Great Long Bardiches and Greatswords to 18 would be the death of this mod.
Sooo... remove str requirements on weapons? I'd be up for that, except great mauls perhaps.The whole idea of removing str requirements is that everyone can pick up a weapon and swing it, but the less STR you have the more and more your weapon get useless. It shouldn't change much about the epeen of certain people using that item, but a peasant should be able to pick up a great maul and swing it yes. He will do almost no dmg and be slow as fuck though.
That's quite strange since I seem to be a lot faster than an average player with 7 athletics and medium heavy armor (~20kg total). I think most players on EU still have 6 athletics. Maybe I'm wrong here, but I'd guess it's more your footwork and less the enemy builds that make you feel slower than you are. Their weapons are a lot longer than yours as well making them even slower.I am not talking about footwork but about round start and everyone running a straight line. I am faster but not nearly as much as 3 ath more (considering you're 6ath average would be true) would expect me to be.
Ask around, most players that do well have high level builds with 24-27 strength. Their footwork is better than average players which makes them seem a lot faster.
That said, with a 9 athletics ninja build I feel your armor is way too heavy. It's much more fun to play with 2kg armor on that kind of build. Just have to avoid archers even more - try it, it can be super fun and super annoying at the same time trying to survive in rags.
Yeah, i never understood how that worked at round starts because with 0 athletics and medium armour, or very rarely heavy armour or plate, i still reach the battle or castle walls at the same time as everyone else, sometimes before them. Maybe i just run straighter and more direct.Maybe because athletics skill isn't as much about running speed as you think?
suffer*Feel free to use the Modify Post feature.
Most of the people dont care about the forum anyways so that the polls are nonesence anyways just saying. or you would need to at least let them longer open dead people could get the information of that. When people like panos dont have a real life it dont means that the players what have to work. And have no time to read this shit have to saver pains because of him.
zip your twat mouth you moronic cunt.
I think the last page has shown that i'm open to consider new ideas if the poster isnt being a dick about it. I like how you're still trying to drag this back into the petty bitch-contest this thread was a page ago that wasnt going anywhere. But by all means continue, share your great wisdom of why your particular build is infact UP and should be BUFFED if anything, certainly not nerfed heaven forbid. Bring us back to *that* kind of closeminded discussion where we all try to throw jibes at each other cos we think it makes us sound smart (it doesnt).You can call me a dick (because I did act a bit like a dick which I'm sorry for), but please, I'm playing 18-21 cav right now. :D Before that, I used to play as 15-30 assassin guy. And before that - as a 24-18 polearm guy. So I'm not trying to convince you just for my own comfort. And my current build is quite OP by the way. :)
You can call me a dick (because I did act a bit like a dick which I'm sorry for), but please, I'm playing 18-21 cav right now. :D Before that, I used to play as 15-30 assassin guy. And before that - as a 24-18 polearm guy. So I'm not trying to convince you just for my own comfort. And my current build is quite OP by the way. :)
My point is that restricting isn't equal to balancing. If armored agi is OP, it should be nerfed instead of being restricted. Otherwise it would be unfair since STR builds are free to use light armor as well as heavy one.
In my opinion...
The game is very much balanced around agi atm, with little incentive for players to take more str than around 18. Every build favours agi really opposed to str. Be it melee, cav, archer, xbow, thrower. What do you get by going over 18 str compared to what you get with agi? We definately need str limits of some kind on armour btw. Thats the only negative trait to wearing armour on a horse.
Agi is too good atm for every class. It adds to melee damage, lets you use ranged, use cav, makes you way more efficient in melee. They either need to buff str or give people a good incentive to take less agi. I'm not sure if str requirements are the answer, but it would at least put restrictions on ranged and cav which is fine for balance. Some classes do need to be restricted, its not always possible to simply nerf for each class. Agi melee might suffer, but tbh melee aren't the ones who benefit from high armour the most anyway. Melee need to be fast to catch people because of their short range. Cav aren't affected until dehorsed, and then they just need to soak up damage or run away. Ranged always try to put themselves at a distance and can start to kite way before the negative trait of the armour will impact them too much
I have my wpf split 3 ways and I still reckon just because I have 8 athletics my build is better than my old 24/18.
Stopped reading there, opinion of new players not interesting.Simon had 40-50 gens last year already and even then the opinion of a new player isn't of less value than the opinion of a try hard 'veteran'
Simon_Templar, we really appreciate that you managed to put all your thoughts into single post.