Increase the difficulty requirement on Medium/Heavy tier armours. POLL ADDED!

[Kafein]

Heskey, you're 45/3 build wearing mostly heavy armour that can't block, so I can't help but feel that you're somewhat biased when it comes to this. The only problem with increased survivability from very heavy armour is when it has no downsides, and that is only when you use it on horseback or don't lose movement speed from it (say hello to your build there, Heskey, though it at least doesn't have a bunch of free wpf anymore).

Actually even a 45/3 build does lose mobility according to armor weight.

I love it how people claim that agiwhoring and plate is bad and no one uses it, yet they defend it with such a passion 

I'd actually have a personal interest in increasing armor difficulty, as I don't use it anyway, and balanced builds with heavy armor are probably the toughest enemies for my build and playstyle. I'm arguing against this change not because I believe the interaction between builds and armor weight is currently fine, but because the "fix" suggested here is horrible. About as horrible as the changes to horse difficulty have been in the past. Armor penalties on wpf have been tweaked before and they could be again. That solution is much better because the possibility of using heavy armor with low strength would still exist but it would just be not optimal.

[no_rules_just_play]

I'd actually have a personal interest in increasing armor difficulty, as I don't use it anyway, and balanced builds with heavy armor are probably the toughest enemies for my build and playstyle.

Watch out kafein, balanced builds don't exist in panosworld

[Panos_]

Yeah you`re right, I dont like the fact that agility based builds can literally have everything served on their table, with now downsides at all

Good while mounted, check
Tanky due to plate armour, check
Faster than the average infantry due to 8 athletics, check
Shield skill, check
No penalty at swings speed due to high WPF, check

Spammy, Tanky, Fast, Can mount, Can use a shield, Can have IF

WHAT. THE. FUCK.
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You`re right, in my world you`d had to have at least 19 STR to wear plate armour, but you my old friends dont like that because you`d either had to sacrifiece IF or ATH to wear plate armour.

[no_rules_just_play]

The whole point of a hybrid is that I can be average at multiple things, which is my strength. Anybody who focusses on either infantery or cavalry will still have the advantage over me in any situation, I just get more fun because I can choose what I play at the start of each round.

If I am 'tanky' with my 'plate armour' than a balanced build with 21 str probably has like an unbeatable forcefield around him while still doing damage (which I don't, sinisstra was laughing at me earlier because most of my hits with my danish GS glanced on him) and with less speed reduction.

If you call somebody a tank, you should consider what anybody with a better suited build would be like, but yeah you can't just call me 'well protected' because then your whole argument would be useless right?

[San]

Do you think that the STRENGTH requirement for Medium/Heavy tier armours, should be increased?

Yes
    10 (83.3%)
No
    Gravoth and no_rules

Hey, I can troll, too.

I think that increasing requirements, nerfing glove looms, increasing glove wpf penalty, and giving light/heavy armour distinctive roles all go hand in hand with each other for my personal idea of armor balance. In battle, heavy armor with an agi build is an equally viable alternative, although its potential is realized against a group enemies in plate. You retain all of the advantages against your encumbered foes. The aforementioned changes do not rely on increasing the requirements, but I cannot find myself agreeing with increasing requirements without some of these other changes.

I thought that the heavier tier of gloves was broken in the past, but with ample time using mail mittens, it's clear to me how all glove looms need to be changed.

[Panos_]

Average at multiple things?? 

You`re faster than the  average infantry with 8 ath

You have 8 riding , which that makes you a very good cavalry man ( despite the fact you`re a bad lancer)

You have equal WPF to most no hybrid polearmers

AND ON TOP OF THAT

You can get 10HP more from the IF skill, AND wear 75+ body protection.


Dude, if you think that all these make your build to be "average" at many things, then you`re just an idiot.

[Huscarlton_Banks]

His build actually has 6 riding, not 8.

But yeah, it's pretty OP if you compare it to people at level 31 or under.

Oddly enough I seem to do much better with 15 or less overall armor weight (even cloth/nudity) vs wearing the fattest armor I can get my hands on, but I guess that's just down to playstyle/me mostly dying to random headshots, couches, or really big speed bonus pokes.

[Molly]

umm... due to recent wpf changes the average infantry man has 8 ath and wm too.
Just watch the battlefield.
I play 15/27 (I'm a Ninja after all) using the known armour set. I am barely faster than 80% of the Kuyak heroes. The average athletics is way higher than it used to be due to the wpf change. Just cuz Panos isn't following the trend, you wanna fuck everyone over for using more ath since wpf doesn't come free any more?
First you change the wpf you'll get and basically force everyone into high wm/ath builds and now you wanna take away their armors?

I shouldn't even care. I won't be hit by anything you can come up with since Lamellar Vest is easily on the save side I figure. But still... forcing everyone in one direction and then punish them for doing so is not good balancing. You should have thought about that earlier.

Disregard everything above if you're really just talking about plate. And if you do only talk about plate, the whole thread is silly cuz there are like 3 people using this randomly, not even regular. Balancing should consider the majority and not waste time on 1% of the players.

[no_rules_just_play]

I didn't even see the poll yet san, added my vote.

Yes I'm faster than the average lvl 35 str my old friend panos, but I do much less damage and my armour isn't as usefull because I have less HP. You compare me to 10 fucking different kinds of builds and claim I don't have any downsides because I will always be faster than  a str whore and be able to take more dmg than the average agiwhore in peasant gear. You forget to mention that I do less dmg and survive less hits than the average str whore and that I'm a LOT slower than that agiwhore.

P.s. I've been using light gear on foot for most of my agibuild carreer (+2 years), currently using a light kuyak. I was agiwhore before the str nerf and never asked for it, now everybody has gone agi and I kinda liked being 'special'. I play for fun and not for epeen like you with your flamberge or whatever you use now. I'm using halfswording because I'm almost the only one, not because it's so fucking weak in combination with my build... Same goes for the armour.

You can always compare my lvl 35 build to lvl 31 builds, but how would that be fair? A lvl 35 infantry or cavalry crushes me period. You might compare me to a lvl 32 build because if you substracted either riding or cav, my build would be manageable with that level. Now stop bitching I'm 'strong' in everything, because then you all are 'OP' in everything. I'M A LEVEL 32 HOPLITE WITH ADDED RIDING FFS. I used lvl 33-35 so I could play cav without having to change character, because I think it's fun while you use those levels to get extra powerstrike so you can crush some more peasants.

[Huscarlton_Banks]

To be honest, I think jack_1's build does a better job of being level 35 OP, just seems a hell of a lot more boring.

(click to show/hide)

24 strength
24 agility

8 powerstrike
8 athletics
4 WM

132 2h

I'm pretty sure most players will explode on contact once he gets to 7WM though.

I'm not sure increasing the requirements on medium/heavy armors will do much, most of the top-scoring guys I see on NA either already have huge STR, or are agi builds with sub-15 weight total armor that just use speed to soak up hits anyway.

[Macropus]

This thread. 
Okay, probably the last final post on this matter by me, cba to deal with all the bullshit here.

You say agi builds with plate are too strong, alright, let's take it as a given. Now what you propose is to restrict agi builds from using heavy armour instead of fixing the actual problem, saying that would increase the variety of armours and builds.
But if AGI builds benefit too much from more armour, they would just again use the heaviest they can, will it be Kuyaks or something else, the variety would stay the same.
How on earth, instead of fixing the problem, you think just doing "This is too strong, you can't use it from now" is better? I call it bullshit. If plated agi builds are OP, nerf them. Don't restrict. Don't forget that STR builds are not restricted from using light armor either. A 21-21 build with light armor is what you'd call an OP agi freak with crazy damage.

But actually, I don't think they are OP. However, I do believe the speed bonus should be reduced in general (which naturally would nerf cav and agi characters more than others.

Im actually wearing light armor with my main and sometimes, i use full plate, what i noticed is no big speed effect on my movements, im like 10 or 20% slower, for 5x survivability.

Are you talking about the running speed or your acceleration? Most people here seem to confuse these 2 things. Armor doesn't affect your running speed too much (especially the so-called "sprint" speed), but it does significantly affect your maneuverability which is (and not the running speed) the main advantage athletics give you.

[Mr.K.]

umm... due to recent wpf changes the average infantry man has 8 ath and wm too.
Just watch the battlefield.

That's quite strange since I seem to be a lot faster than an average player with 7 athletics and medium heavy armor (~20kg total). I think most players on EU still have 6 athletics. Maybe I'm wrong here, but I'd guess it's more your footwork and less the enemy builds that make you feel slower than you are. Their weapons are a lot longer than yours as well making them even slower.

First you change the wpf you'll get and basically force everyone into high wm/ath builds and now you wanna take away their armors?

Ask around, most players that do well have high level builds with 24-27 strength. Their footwork is better than average players which makes them seem a lot faster.

That said, with a 9 athletics ninja build I feel your armor is way too heavy. It's much more fun to play with 2kg armor on that kind of build. Just have to avoid archers even more - try it, it can be super fun and super annoying at the same time trying to survive in rags.

[no_rules_just_play]

A parallel world where this community had gotten used to no melee weapon having higher than 12-16 difficulty. And would argue to the death that increasing the difficulty of Great Long Bardiches and Greatswords to 18 would be the death of this mod.

Nobody ever said the strength requirements for weapons are good, why do you think so many people are for removig requirements and just using penalties (eg for shields)?

[Macropus]

You say agi builds with Great Long Bardiches are too strong, alright, let's take it as a given. Now what you propose is to restrict agi builds from using Great Long Bardiches instead of fixing the actual problem, saying that would increase the variety of weapons and builds.
But if AGI builds benefit too much from more damage, they would just again use the heaviest they can, will it be Long Hafted Blades or something else, the variety would stay the same.
How on earth, instead of fixing the problem, you think just doing "This is too strong, you can't use it from now" is better? I call it bullshit. If Great Long Bardiches agi builds are OP, nerf them. Don't restrict. Don't forget that STR builds are not restricted from using Scythes either. A 21-21 build with Great Long Bardiche is what you'd call an OP agi freak with crazy damage.

^ A parallel world where this community had gotten used to no melee weapon having higher than 12-16 difficulty. And would argue to the death that increasing the difficulty of Great Long Bardiches and Greatswords to 18 would be the death of this mod.

It is a bad example, as well as your whole argument is pretty bad.
Because Great Long Bardiche is unarguably better than Scythe, while heavy armor and light armor both have its pros and cons.

[Gravoth_iii]

Sooo... remove str requirements on weapons? I'd be up for that, except great mauls perhaps.