Increase the difficulty requirement on Medium/Heavy tier armours. POLL ADDED!

[Moncho]

I have a feeling that this thread is going in circles for a few pages already

[Gravoth_iii]

If agi-plate/heavy armour is so gimped, why oppose an increase to armour difficulty?

Really? are you even listening to yourself?

[Gravoth_iii]

Why yes, yes i am, infact i often suspect i'm the only one xD

Perhaps it was worded badly though, my point was that the only objections i hear on this thread to increasing the difficulty, come from people who claim that agi-heavy armour is a useless build anyway. In which case my question is, if it's so useless, why do you care if it gets removed? In that regard isnt that like someone objecting to pole-stagger being removed after claiming 'I have never noticed pole stagger to be useful'.

The arguments are always half: ''It's not even any good, nobody uses these builds, why are you QQing about it?''
And half: ''You'll kill this mod and all variety because everyone loves those builds''
They are incompatible points, please just argue one or the other, or pick one argument each.

So lets remove every build/item that is not very viable, its not like it matters that some may use it for fun/roleplay/fashion because it aint effective.

[Kafein]

You don't see the absence of diversity because there is nothing to see. That doesn't mean there's no absence.

If say, Great Maul was 15 str, I'm sure many people would use it with 15 or 18 str, or at least situationally.


What is obvious is that armors in cRPG are not balanced by difficulty, except perhaps the heavy gauntlets. In any case it's the least of the cons of heavy armors, and that's good.

[HarunYahya]

Gravoth is new GTX. Takes every suggestion personal and defends the default by insulting people with new ideas  great !

When you grow up a lil, I hope you start countering ideas with your own ideas instead of posting bullshit you rager fanboy .

[San]

Armor has more indirect penalties than weapons with weight, which is why heavy armor never spiraled out of control despite the low difficulty. With weapons, slow weapons gain a more noticeable speed increase from wpf, and a large portion of damage comes from the weapon itself more than a small 2-3 PS difference, since it only takes a few damage points to = 1PS.

That said, I personally believe that scaling up to 24 for plate and ~21 the strongest blunt/pierce/axe weapons and scaling down from there makes sense, since it would be preferable for most mid-tier weapons to be accessible to a variety of builds, thus keeping lethality high. Difficulties scale well up to 9 and partially at 12, but above that, most weapons/armor only use 12-17 difficulties.

[Mlekce]

make katana and danish gs 24 str and we have a deal.

[San]

Katana? lol, that doesn't make much sense.

[Mlekce]

this topic doesn't make sence eather.

[Rhaelys]

Exactly, and weapon stats/difficulties have been changed from time to time (in ways that have seriously forced players to change their builds or weapons of choice), where has been the public outcry from this? There's been very little cos the majority understand the changes and adapt.

This outcry about changing anything to do with armour seems strange based on the constant re-tweaking of weapons, i had always assumed that peoples builds were far more dependent on the weapons they could use than on obsessing over maxing armour, or crying that the top tier armours are no longer available to them when top tier gloves already arent, that's what i mean by internal consistency.

Well... i say 'outcry', there only seem to be 2 people who actively oppose this change, and i bet once it's made they'll forget all about it the same way they dont currently spend sleepless nights wishing they could wear Heavy Gauntlets with 16 Str.

Only if you give free respecs or free loom respecs, because I definitely do not relish the prospect of having to change my build or having to marketplace my helmet, chestpiece, gauntlets, and boots in order to continue playing my character.

[Gravoth_iii]

Gravoth is new GTX. Takes every suggestion personal and defends the default by insulting people with new ideas  great !

When you grow up a lil, I hope you start countering ideas with your own ideas instead of posting bullshit you rager fanboy .

So what you are saying is that i shouldnt defend anything even if i consider it to be wrong? I should agree with everything without expressing my own opinion? I have stated my arguements multiple times already, but maybe you are just too blind to see them.

Also it doesnt seem like you are any better, telling me to grow up and calling me a rager fanboy (fanboy of what, where did this come from?.. wtf..). Go back to str crutching.

Well that's certainly not twisting my words.

(click to show/hide)

To sum up really where i'm coming from, Heavy Gauntlets have been 18 Str the entire time i have played this mod, how many times in your entire crpg career have you felt the mod has been ruined by the fact 16 Str players cannot use them? How many times have you felt this has forced players to abandon their RP, and create identical builds and ruin your mod? I would wager it's somewhere between 0 and 1. If you can't use Heavy Gaunts, you just use something else and never think about it again, there isn't a crpg apocalypse of 'I cant use this item!? GRRRRRRRRRRR!!!! MUST QUIT!!'.

'Difficulty' is already a mechanic, if you think this kills variety then go back in time to when Mount and Blade was being developed and stop them there. My argument is that on the road from Warband to Crpg, the difficulty for weapons has been tweaked and balanced (that much is obvious), but the Armour requirements are identical to Warband, so there is a disparity in the logic between weapon difficulty and the armour difficulty. And internal balance of armour difficulty: Heavy Gaunts 18 Str, Milanese plate 16, Heavy Plate 15?

Yeah, its one thing if an item has been unavailable since the start, and another when an item gets a undeserved nerf so you suddenly cant use it anymore. No one would quit based on one item being unavailable from the start, but if you get your set nerfed and suddenly cant use it anymore with your favourite build then its a different story.

Difficulty is used very rarely for balance purposes, and rightfully so. It just isnt needed, the stats on the items is what balances them mainly. If you ask me, difficulty could be removed completely for armours. (Still needed for some weapons though)

This outcry about changing anything to do with armour seems strange based on the constant re-tweaking of weapons, i had always assumed that peoples builds were far more dependent on the weapons they could use than on obsessing over maxing armour, or crying that the top tier armours are no longer available to them when top tier gloves already arent, that's what i mean by internal consistency.

Gloves already provide a good variety to me, Plate mittens do the job well enough with good looks aswell. But again like ive said before, removing options that have no real reason to be removed is just something i cant grasp, whats the point if not for balance purposes? 

[Gravoth_iii]

(click to show/hide)

But at this point the only logic behind the internal balance of armours or between armours and weapons is ''well that's how it's always been'', and as a general rule (in anything you do) it's those things that i find it most valuable to challenge and see if you can either find a better reason, or see if you can do things better.

If we were starting from basics, there's no way the current armour difficulty values would have been chosen, it's only still here now cos 'thats the way its always been'.

They change the difficulty on weapons from time to time, this can entirely destroy someone's playstyle far more than forcing them to make cosmetic changes. They even remove items sometimes with the same effect, or make a 4d weapon 2d, or vice versa. These things are all hugely game-changing for the people who use them, and force them to play differently.

Again on the point of consistency, if those changes are acceptable i'm sure the community would survive an armour retweak unscathed since that surely won't have anywhere near the same mechanical impact as changing a weapon's stats or difficulty or animations. If removing difficulty on armours totally is even in discussion, then they should remove it for weapons also, they serve the same purpose ingame, and the weapon requirements are far harsher and restrictive than armour (throwing lance has only like 2 possible builds at lvl 30, there's your diversity).

Weapon difficulty is changed due to balancing, Armor difficulty wont really change the balance of the game so why change the difficulty? Consistency? Lets make every weapon and armour 30 str req, its consistent, but will it be fun?

[HarunYahya]

So what you are saying is that i shouldnt defend anything even if i consider it to be wrong? I should agree with everything without expressing my own opinion? I have stated my arguements multiple times already, but maybe you are just too blind to see them.

Also it doesnt seem like you are any better, telling me to grow up and calling me a rager fanboy (fanboy of what, where did this come from?.. wtf..). Go back to str crutching.

You have a problem understanding what you read.

Read underlined parts again
"Gravoth is new GTX. Takes every suggestion personal and defends the default by insulting people with new ideas great !
When you grow up a lil, I hope you start countering ideas with your own ideas instead of posting bullshit you rager fanboy ."

If you still think those mean that u shouldnt defend anything even if u consider it to be wrong. u should agree with everything without expressing your own opinion? I guess you need more time ...

 fanboy
A passionate fan of various elements of geek culture (e.g. sci-fi, comics, Star Wars, video games, anime, hobbits, Magic: the Gathering, etc.), but who lets his passion override social graces.

Im not even a STR crutcher, I don't want this change because It'll grant me any benefit,it'll actually fuck my build up (21-21). Just want this addition because current system is bullshit but you are so blinded by your love to cRPG (That's where you being a fanboy kicks in) you don't value any suggestion that's gonna change your beloved mod and as a result you react harshly and irrational.

[Gravoth_iii]

I think Armour difficulty doesnt really change the balance of the game currently, and i think that's my problem with it and why i would see it raised.

I agree with you in that the requirements at the moment are so low and largely irrelevant that they might as well remove the difficulty if they dont plan to increase it, as it currently has little/no bearing on balance.

So in order to change the balance by increasing the difficulty you will also have to increase the stats of the armour to actually impact the games balance, and this will only lead to the game becoming unbalanced leaning towards str builds using plate with greater stats than anyone with less str has the possibility to use. So to balance this they will have to make it available to lower str in order to make more people able to use this overpowered piece of gear, or they will have to nerf it to make other armours worth while (like now) but then they might aswell also make it available to everyone since it has both pros and cons and is not stronger in every aspect compared to a medium armour but does have something better and something worse.

[Kafein]

I think making heavy armor better, making it linked with ironflesh for difficulty and removing the bonus HP from ironflesh could work balance-wise, but it would hurt variety.