Poll

 Do you think that the STRENGTH requirement for Medium/Heavy tier armours, should be increased?

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Author Topic: Increase the difficulty requirement on Medium/Heavy tier armours. POLL ADDED!  (Read 26991 times)

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Offline Switchtense

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I already mentioned a thousand times before I want to use the transitional because it looks fucking awesome. I am just trying to say that the extra armour you get already isn't worth the speed reduction combined with your already low dmg output.

I think you are overestimating the powers of my build, my damage output is only high because I am using a great lance which also has some serious downsides. And indeed, I want to be able to wear heavy armour when I'm using a heavy horse. At lvl 31, the only possible pure cav build to use heavy horses is 15/24. Forcing people with high agi to use lighter armour will result in people on chargers riding around wearing cloth.

As I said, I am using the Transitional with 7 ath from time to time and I can move just fine in it. Only when it rains I feel somewhat slow. But I feel slow in every armour when it is raining.
On foot your damage output is fairly small with 5 power strike tops yes. But like I said. Do not get dismounted.

I think you are underestimating the power of 5 power strike on horse back. Wearing heavy gear, together with a heavy horse makes bump slashing much easier as well.

Increasing the armour requirements would mean less Tincans on Elephants yes. I find that to be quite positive to be honest.
And 18/24 is definitely possible. You will, however, not have any IF, Ath and only 3 weapon master. But with a 1h 3 weapon master is enough. And with a Great Lance wpf does not matter much anyway.
So you have to decide:
Do I want to be viable on horseback AND on foot,
or
Do I wanna go Heavy Armour on Elephant with nice damage output but slow as hell on foot?
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Offline Mr.K.

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Level:           31

Strength:        18
Agility:         24

Skill to attr:   12

Power Strike:     6
Riding:           8
Weapon Master:    6

using cRPG NewGen calc

Offline no_rules_just_play

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Increasing the armour requirements would mean less Tincans on Elephants yes.
No, increasing armour requirements will lead to peasants on elephants. 18/24 is possible if you decide not to put anything in wm or if. Ffs, wasn't cav nerfed enough already?

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Level:           31

Strength:        18
Agility:         24

Skill to attr:   12

Power Strike:     6
Riding:           8
Weapon Master:    6

using cRPG NewGen calc
Exactly, there will be ONE SINGLE FUCKING BUILD left for heavy cav at lvl 31. Great thinking...

Do I want to be viable on horseback AND on foot,
That's exactly why I decided to go hybrid, I'm equal to a lvl 31 build both on foot and on horseback but I am able to play both pretty fine. If that's your argument, I don't know anymore... Should I be unable to use heavy armour because I am both strong on foot and on horseback, because I chose to go to lvl 35 for extra riding while all other people were telling me I was destroying my build?

I already choose every round if I want to be good on foot or on horseback by deciding what armour I use. If I choose the heavy armour, I know I won't last long if I get dismounted. When I want to play infantery, I know I need light gear to (ab)use my builds strengths.

But like I said. Do not get dismounted.
Have you played cav yet? You seem like you don't have any idea how it feels to be followed through whole the map by a horsearcher who is just putting one arrow at a time in the ass of your horse... But, let's make sure I can't use heavy armour so he can just shoot the peasant on top of the elephant right?

Offline no_rules_just_play

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Anyone who says heavy armour with 6+ athletics is slow, needs to play a Str build or a peasant to remind themself that it really isnt.

Please stop comparing single elements of a build and using these comparisons in your advantage.

Good god, I am faster with my 15/24 build then you with your 33/3 build. Well, don't forget I have 5 ps and 5 if and you have 11 in both...

Offline Panos_

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No, increasing armour requirements will lead to peasants on elephants. 18/24 is possible if you decide not to put anything in wm or if. Ffs, wasn't cav nerfed enough already?


Stop with that arguement already, Royanss is playing with a 10kg armour and he is the best 1hand/cav of this mod.

Oberyn is playing with a light armour already, and he tops easily.


And 18/24 is definitely possible. You will, however, not have any IF, Ath and only 3 weapon master. But with a 1h 3 weapon master is enough. And with a Great Lance wpf does not matter much anyway.
So you have to decide:
Do I want to be viable on horseback AND on foot,
or
Do I wanna go Heavy Armour on Elephant with nice damage output but slow as hell on foot?


THIS 10000 FUCKING TIMES, ADD SOME PENALTIES TO THE AGILITY HEROES ALREADY.

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Offline no_rules_just_play

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Royanss
Oberyn
Yeah, and neither of them uses a heavy horse. They are using arabian horses.
I don't think knights used arabians, I also don't think peasants used war horses...

THIS 10000 FUCKING TIMES, ADD SOME PENALTIES TO THE AGILITY HEROES ALREADY.

Wait, so you also think that because I am a lvl 35 hybrid instead of a lvl 35 tank I shouldn't be able to play both infantery and cavalry? What the fuck...

I have a light and a heavy armour set. Light for when I spawn on foot, heavy for when I spawn on horseback. You really think that because I can play two playstyles that all armours I have are also good for that purpose? Why don't you spawn on horseback with your flamberge, it's great on foot so the advantages should carry over to cavalry right?

Offline Mr.K.

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Wait, so you also think that because I am a lvl 35 hybrid instead of a lvl 35 tank I shouldn't be able to play both infantery and cavalry? What the fuck...

What are you talking about? If you are level 35 you can easily have both high agi and high strength anyway and if the armor requirements are increased you'd still be able to use plate armor on plate horse. Maybe not the heaviest plate (imo it should be 20+ req), but your Transitional for sure. The devs don't want people to be good-at-everything hybrids. The only thing in this mod right now that works as a full hybrid without any drawbacks is Xbow/melee. All others have to be bad at something. Nerf that and we're all treated the same. Cavalry used to be easy to hybrid with 5 riding. You only needed two more levels than a similar infantry build. If they had given us a better respec I wouldn't have any problem with the requirement change.

Your level 35 would have no ironflesh and only two shield skill. That's a compromise they want you to make to be able to have all you want. Do you see people crying that they can't use a Yumi on Plated Charger until they reach level 33? Or that you can't use a flamberge with a 12/30 build? It's perfectly fine to limit some options in this game to keep it both balanced and varied. If the engine was any better we could remove requirements completely and just make it so a steel pick for example doesn't penetrate armor if you don't have enough strength, but right now we need these limitations to keep it balanced.

Offline no_rules_just_play

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What are you talking about? If you are level 35 you can easily have both high agi and high strength anyway and if the armor requirements are increased you'd still be able to use plate armor on plate horse. Maybe not the heaviest plate (imo it should be 20+ req), but your Transitional for sure.

What the fuck are you talking about? I didn't chose to get high agi AND str because I put those fucking points in riding. I was talking about this not allowing lvl 31 players to play on a heavy horse. The whole point of this is to help new players, remember? Lvl 35 builds ARE NOT for new players ffs.

The devs don't want people to be good-at-everything hybrids. The only thing in this mod right now that works as a full hybrid without any drawbacks is Xbow/melee. All others have to be bad at something. Nerf that and we're all treated the same. Cavalry used to be easy to hybrid with 5 riding. You only needed two more levels than a similar infantry build. If they had given us a better respec I wouldn't have any problem with the requirement change.

Again, what the actual fuck do are you talking about? Hybrids aren't good at everything, they are moderate at everything and there is NO REASON at all why the devs wouldn't want people to play them. Now you are talking about the fact that your old cav hybrid got fucked? Well boohoo, that doesn't mean that I can't play one.

Your level 35 would have no ironflesh and only two shield skill.
And again, NEW PLAYERS DONT GET TO LVL 35. And even then, YES I see a problem with nerfing a hybrid that doesn't need a fucking nerf. I am pointing out that your 'fixes' would fuck up hybrids and you suddenly start claiming they deserve it?

Do you see people crying that they can't use a Yumi on Plated Charger until they reach level 33? Or that you can't use a flamberge with a 12/30 build? It's perfectly fine to limit some options in this game to keep it both balanced and varied.
But it is NOT perfectly fine to limit heavy cav only to people who are high level. It's not because cav got insane riding requirement now that you should also make them unable to use some fitting gear, having to offer all your ironflesh and 2 wm to play cav at lvl 31 IS NOT OKAY.

Offline Switchtense

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No, increasing armour requirements will lead to peasants on elephants. 18/24 is possible if you decide not to put anything in wm or if. Ffs, wasn't cav nerfed enough already?
I am not quite sure you are aware of what armour you could wear with 15 strength. If you call medium armour peasant then you seriously need to overthink how much you value armour

Exactly, there will be ONE SINGLE FUCKING BUILD left for heavy cav at lvl 31. Great thinking...
And that is a very decent build. What is the problem? If you wanna go cav, just level up a bit further than 31. Takes dedication I know, but what is the problem with this?

That's exactly why I decided to go hybrid, I'm equal to a lvl 31 build both on foot and on horseback but I am able to play both pretty fine. If that's your argument, I don't know anymore... Should I be unable to use heavy armour because I am both strong on foot and on horseback, because I chose to go to lvl 35 for extra riding while all other people were telling me I was destroying my build?

I honestly do not know what your problem is. Level 35 you can get the following:
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If you want some shield or IF then go 6 power strike. That way you have an extra 7 skill points to spend.
This build is definitely great both on horseback and on foot.


I already choose every round if I want to be good on foot or on horseback by deciding what armour I use. If I choose the heavy armour, I know I won't last long if I get dismounted. When I want to play infantery, I know I need light gear to (ab)use my builds strengths.
With the above posted build you would have 7 ath. And if you cannot last on foot with a Transitional and 7 ath and 24 agi then you gotta practice that. Like I said, I can do perfectly fine with 23 weight armour and I have only 21 agi with 7 ath.

Have you played cav yet? You seem like you don't have any idea how it feels to be followed through whole the map by a horsearcher who is just putting one arrow at a time in the ass of your horse... But, let's make sure I can't use heavy armour so he can just shoot the peasant on top of the elephant right?
Yes, in fact, I used my STF, so only level 30 for cav. Did not use a heavy horse though, because they are way inferior to an Arab Warhorse anyway. And no, I do not keep getting shot by Horse Archers and Foot Archers, because, the solution is fairly simple, you do not run around between enemy archers unless they are distracted. But if I get chased by a Horse Archer then yes, it is incredibly difficult to not die/get your horse killed.

And if the Horse Archer is shooting your horse rather than you, no matter what armour you use, then he is doing it wrong anyway. Especially when you are using a heavy horse.


And also, no, new players do not get to level 35. But IF a new players decides to go HEAVY ARMOUR and ELEPHANT, then he needs to reevaluate whether that is a good decision anyway.
You yourself lead the clan that gives gear to new players because they cannot afford most stuff on their own. And you honestly expect them go choose the literally MOST EXPENSIVE class there is?
Please don't tell me you believe yourself there.

Your own build at 35 has the potential to be incredibly viable on horseback and at the same time when demounted, no matter what armour you use. So what is your problem? Since this is definitely not about new players.
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Offline Mr.K.

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Again, what the actual fuck do are you talking about? Hybrids aren't good at everything, they are moderate at everything and there is NO REASON at all why the devs wouldn't want people to play them.

Cav/inf hybrids suffered almost no penalties before. As I said, my 24/15 was less than two levels worse off than a 24/15 infantry build would be. That's not much. Now you can have a 15/24 build on lvl30 or 18/24 if you plan to go higher and need a heavy horse. That should be perfectly fine.

Quote
Now you are talking about the fact that your old cav hybrid got fucked? Well boohoo, that doesn't mean that I can't play one.

No but it does mean I actually can't play mine at all without wasting 55Mxp. You on the other hand are complaining because this "nerf" that hasn't even happened would cause you not being able to use the heaviest armor, the heaviest horse, while having full iron flesh and maxed out athletics on one build.

Quote
And again, NEW PLAYERS DONT GET TO LVL 35. And even then, YES I see a problem with nerfing a hybrid that doesn't need a fucking nerf. I am pointing out that your 'fixes' would fuck up hybrids and you suddenly start claiming they deserve it?

Heavy armor on horseback is quite a lot more effective than on foot. The only real downside is the upkeep and imo upkeep is a bad method to balance things. So yes, I actually think heavy plate on horseback needs a nerf.

Quote
But it is NOT perfectly fine to limit heavy cav only to people who are high level. It's not because cav got insane riding requirement now that you should also make them unable to use some fitting gear, having to offer all your ironflesh and 2 wm to play cav at lvl 31 IS NOT OKAY.

You can have a lvl30 18/24 build. I really don't see a problem here. Cav build doesn't necessarily need athletics at all, especially if you have high agi. I do just fine on foot with my 27 agi, 0 athletics lancer cav alt. That's a lvl32 build that can use heavy plate armor now with 15 strength. Imo I should be limited to something like heavy gotland armor with this build. That would be more in line with some of the weapon requirements imo. When doing a hybrid I think you should be forced to prioritize one part to be effective.

Offline Grumbs

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About this hybrid stuff..being slightly better in one role is nowhere near as effective as being good at 2 roles. Getting an extra PS or a bit more melee WPF is nothing compared to literally being able to drive into people with a horse for half the round with a melee counter, then get up and be melee. Same with ranged. Its much more effective to shoot guys then switch to melee when forced into it with minimal drawbacks in that role

Hybrids are a big issue with this game..you can't balance for it and it makes single characters too powerful in too many areas
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Offline Molly

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What no rules fails to see, is that players who invest in agility  have it all in their plate.

15/24 : 8 Riding, 8 athletics, 5 IF, 5PS, I dont know how much shield skill you have, you can use a great lance that one hits people AND be a very effecient shielder when you get dismounted.

You can be tanky, and still be faster than a STR based character...


You shitlords keep repeating that agility is bad with heavy armour.

THEN WHY THE FUCK DO YOU USE IT THEN? Are you masochists?

Why the fuck do you want c-rpg to be a plate/spam fest? I`m sick and tired of players like phase, Running around with their coat of plates armour and 8 athletics doing never ending spam not giving a fuck about getting hit because of their armour protection.


God, you pricks are the cancer of the mod, always wanting to abuse something to feel great.
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Offline no_rules_just_play

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And also, no, new players do not get to level 35. But IF a new players decides to go HEAVY ARMOUR and ELEPHANT, then he needs to reevaluate whether that is a good decision anyway.
You yourself lead the clan that gives gear to new players because they cannot afford most stuff on their own. And you honestly expect them go choose the literally MOST EXPENSIVE class there is?
Please don't tell me you believe yourself there.

Your own build at 35 has the potential to be incredibly viable on horseback and at the same time when demounted, no matter what armour you use. So what is your problem? Since this is definitely not about new players.
You have no idea how fucking annoying it is to reply to your points if you format your post like this. I'll try anyway.

* Yes, medium armour isn't peasant armour. But don't you think that it's pretty logical that somebody on a tank horse should be able to wear fucking plate?
* There is only one single build, do you really believe that forcing people into one single direction and cutting out all other options is a good way? The whole point of this mod is variety and freedom to make your own fucking build. You won't get that variety and freedom if anybody wanting to use a heavy horse and fitting armour will have to pick one single build.
* Nice, there is a lvl 35 build that is viable as heavy cav. Did you notice that recently we are trying to make the game more open for new players? Restricting heavy cav to only high level players won't help a bit. I've never seen a lvl 35 new player.
* It's not because a player isn't lvl 35 yet that he shouldn't play cav "because it's too expensive"

1) Cav/inf hybrids suffered almost no penalties before. As I said, my 24/15 was less than two levels worse off than a 24/15 infantry build would be. That's not much. Now you can have a 15/24 build on lvl30 or 18/24 if you plan to go higher and need a heavy horse. That should be perfectly fine.

2) No but it does mean I actually can't play mine at all without wasting 55Mxp. You on the other hand are complaining because this "nerf" that hasn't even happened would cause you not being able to use the heaviest armor, the heaviest horse, while having full iron flesh and maxed out athletics on one build.

3) Heavy armor on horseback is quite a lot more effective than on foot. The only real downside is the upkeep and imo upkeep is a bad method to balance things. So yes, I actually think heavy plate on horseback needs a nerf.

4) When doing a hybrid I think you should be forced to prioritize one part to be effective.
1) Hybrids get no penalties? Do you even know what the fuck you are talking about? Are you comparing a lvl 35 hybrid to a lvl 31 hybrid? Hybrids are good all rounders, but that doesn't mean they are significantly weaker than players with the same level but who decided not to go with a hybrid. Doesn't matter if you are on foot or on horseback, you will always perform the same as a lvl 31 player. You just get a better chance of survival when you get dismounted, I think that isn't too much to ask considering I had to get to lvl 35 for it? I chose for fun because I wanted to play as much different 'classes' as possible, and now you are saying that it's OP to be average at multiple things?

2) No this 'nerf' would just disallow new players to have a decent build for heavy cav and only allow this class to the old players. The whole fucking idea will just push cav into one direction, we already got pushed in the high agi direction because of the riding skill change and now you wanna force us in the str direction at the same time if you want to use a decent armour? People should be free to use whatever gear they like and if the fucking game wouldn't even allow heavy ass knights, I don't know where this is going.

3) Overpowered? Why? Because  horsearchers won't aim for the person but go for the horse if they see you wearing plate? Plate is strong, but it certainly needs no fixing. That whole point of it is that it should be strong.

4) Do you even know what a fucking hybrid means? There is no point in going a hybrid with 8 riding and 2 athletics, nobody would even call that a hybrid. I literally had to grind exponential amounts of xp to get to lvl 35 so I could combine two lvl 31 builds in one. I don't have to leave the server and get back with my other char if I want to switch between two classes because I can just change my equipment and I'm ready to go. Why would you prioritize anything if you are a hybrid, that's why you are average at multiple things instead of crutching fucking strength. Nerfing hybrids like this will take away a big part of fun from the game and also make it even harder for new players because they are now opposed to people with far greater stats than them.


About this hybrid stuff..being slightly better in one role is nowhere near as effective as being good at 2 roles. Getting an extra PS or a bit more melee WPF is nothing compared to literally being able to drive into people with a horse for half the round with a melee counter, then get up and be melee. Same with ranged. Its much more effective to shoot guys then switch to melee when forced into it with minimal drawbacks in that role

Hybrids are a big issue with this game..you can't balance for it and it makes single characters too powerful in too many areas
As said before, I'm not the only guy with lvl 35. There are also lvl 35 pure cav players and pure infantery players, they have the advantage over me in both cases.

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You have no idea how fucking annoying it is to reply to your points if you format your post like this. I'll try anyway.

* Yes, medium armour isn't peasant armour. But don't you think that it's pretty logical that somebody on a tank horse should be able to wear fucking plate?
* There is only one single build, do you really believe that forcing people into one single direction and cutting out all other options is a good way? The whole point of this mod is variety and freedom to make your own fucking build. You won't get that variety and freedom if anybody wanting to use a heavy horse and fitting armour will have to pick one single build.
* Nice, there is a lvl 35 build that is viable as heavy cav. Did you notice that recently we are trying to make the game more open for new players? Restricting heavy cav to only high level players won't help a bit. I've never seen a lvl 35 new player.
* It's not because a player isn't lvl 35 yet that he shouldn't play cav "because it's too expensive"

There is one build at lvl30 for being able to ride heavy horses. Multiple builds for being able to ride. Decent horses as well, not just Sumpters and shit.

You want to be an elephant riding tincan? Go dedicate yourself to that build!
A tincan on an elephant with a ACS or Morningstar takes ages to kill, while killing everything else in one hit. You should not be able to just make your STF an elephant riding tincan.

Code: [Select]
Level 32
21 Strength
24 Agility
7 Power Strike
8 Riding
2 Weapon Master

There is a viable  heavy cav build right there. Level 32 does not take long to reach. All it takes is a bit of dedication.

And no, I did not say that lvl35 is a viable Cav build. I said it is a perfectly viable cav/inf hybrid. There is a huge difference there.

If you want pure freedom and variety of builds, go unnerf Arbs back to 15 strength. Because now at level 30 you can only go 18/24, which is a huge loss of wpf compared to the old 15/27. (Yes, you can still go 18/27, but it no longer is viable)
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Offline no_rules_just_play

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Calling a build with 7ps and only 2 wm viable...

Btw how many elephant riding tincans with morningstar have you seen lately? Exactly, the only one who ever used to play that build no longer can play it. I thought you were a polearmer? Killing cavalry literally takes only a few stabs. I think that if somebody pays  tons of money to be able to play his build that he should be allowed to wear fucking gear that is worth the price.