Poll

 Do you think that the STRENGTH requirement for Medium/Heavy tier armours, should be increased?

Yes
No

Author Topic: Increase the difficulty requirement on Medium/Heavy tier armours. POLL ADDED!  (Read 26016 times)

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Offline Panos_

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They made their choice to be weak, I fail to see where`s the problem.
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Offline Tydeus

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+1
They made their choice to be weak, I fail to see where`s the problem.
My point is, you're not thinking about this enough, about what the effects would actually be, about what the real problem actually is.
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Offline Algarn

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As an archer, I'm gonna tell the truth about builds. A polearmer/2h will be easier to pick up for me if he's like 27/15, but will need 4/6(?) arrows to be taken down, it all depends of the armor. An agi whore (24 +) with high armor and Atlh skills, plus some IF is way worse than strengh whores, because even if I saw myslef being 1 hit by danish greatswords users, I find agility better for everything when it comes about everything but taking hits. Panos is biased, but he's right about the fact that a guy that cannot wear a sallet shouldn't be able to wear a plate, I mean, wtf, you see a 15/27 outrunning your archer with 7 athl in a plate stuff... Agiwhores, as said before, can easily take a lot of hits if they  get 5 or 6 IF, are fast with a heavy armor, are insanely fast without, and are better in most situations. Lets say a 18/24 as Grumbs, a decent player with wpf in every kind of melee weapon, is confronted to the situations Tydeus described. He would win everything, except about the archer/cav part if the ammount is just too high. Why ? He got huge athl, with decent hp pool, a lack of PS (6) compared to strengh whores, but can compensate with 135 wpf in everything and speed bonus due to atlh skill. If such people are able to wear such armors, well, nothing to say then. The great maul strenght's requirement has been set to 20 for a good reason, and the same should be done to plates, since it's just too easy for any people with agi to run with it. -> remember the crossbowmen last strat, 15 str, with a whole plate stuff, still able to headshot someone from the walls (ridiculous wpf reductions for them, it's the same for every agi based build).


TLDR :

Agi + plate = fast with still huge wpf pool, and therefore damages, and a variable survivability about armor, shield, and IF.
Str + plate = resistant, hits hard, but slow, cannot be fast, doesn't get a lot of things from wpf synergy, and have a huge wpf part fucked by the weight of armor.

Also, I think a str requirement should be added for shields. I mean, if you aren't able to wear a fucking leather armor, how can you be able to raise a steel shield , hm ?


Note that I'm an archer, that is pissed of by both STR and AGI crutching in an equal way, and therefore not that biased.

Offline Tydeus

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+1
...
Contrary to popular belief, weight penalties have a larger negative affect on actual effectiveness(pertaining to wpf) to those with high amounts of wpf, than anyone else.
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Offline Algarn

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Are we playing the same game ? Isn't it logical that more wpf you got, more wpfs you will get with weight's penalties ? I did experiment that multiple times, with a STF 27/12 with ~ 130 wpf, and a agi whore 15/24, ~ 170 wpf, and it's obvious for me that my str char with low wm was effectively much slower to hit than my agi whore. Even if you lose tons of wpf from weight, you'll still be able to do the same ammount of damages with a agi build A as a strengh build B with 8 PS, of course, with speed bonus, and damages from wpf. I'm fine with balance, it's just disturbing when you talk about realism when you see people sprinting with plates and outrunning archers. You should get either the ability to dodge, or the ability to eat a lot of hits before going down and watching the grass growing. If you want a plate, go at least with 21 str, or go fuck yourself and stay with lower armors. I'm not talking at all about reducing agi players's abitlity to take armors to shit, just saying that plates and a lot of high tier armors aren't at all fairly represented in this game, since armorcrutching should be a choice in the build, and not a conventionnal option for everyone. Either get a strong, at least, balanced char, and get the ability to wear steel on your body, or run with lighter armors and lighter shields and go flanking. No offence to those who think the opposite, but realism should have a better place in that game, instead of having wierd things like a plate that can be worn by a weak footman.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2014, 06:57:54 pm by Algarn »

Offline Okkam

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+1
Playing with light armor is NOT fun right now. Simply lowering armor values right now, without doing anything else, would make agi melee nearly unbearable. Very few people can play(and enjoy) melee with an agi build using sub 40 armor values. Both ranged, and teamwounds, tear you to pieces. Having half the melee on the server lower their armor by 20, would have drastic side effects. You cannot think of it as simply playing with that equipment in our current meta game.


About drastic affects... do you remember how it was in native? Do you remember max armor rating in native mp? Super dreadnought its local crpg tradition, this armors and some fantasY weapons made current meta game unstable and almost broken. Same with broken upkeep idea.

Offline Tydeus

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+1
Are we playing the same game ? Isn't it logical that more wpf you got, more wpfs you will get with weight's penalties ? I did experiment that multiple times, with a STF 27/12 with ~ 130 wpf, and a agi whore 15/24, ~ 170 wpf, and it's obvious for me that my str char with low wm was effectively much slower to hit than my agi whore. Even if you lose tons of wpf from weight, you'll still be able to do the same ammount of damages with a agi build A as a strengh build B with 8 PS, of course, with speed bonus, and damages from wpf. I'm fine with balance, it's just disturbing when you talk about realism when you see people sprinting with plates and outrunning archers.

Don't forget, the weight penalty is (weight_after_modifiers - 10) ^ 1.12. Then for ranged you have the wpf per PD/PT reduction, a 1.5x multiplier for crossbows(but this doesn't affect damage) and for melee you have...

(abs((2*weight penalty)/3 - 100) * wpf)/100

meaning the penalty is applied as a percent.

So we have a percentile reduction, which means x weight_penalty will have a larger numerical reduction as wpf increases. Furthermore, each individual point of wpf counts for a larger percent of your total damage, as wpf values increase past 100.

About drastic affects... do you remember how it was in native? Do you remember max armor rating in native mp? Super dreadnought its local crpg tradition, this armors and some fantasY weapons made current meta game unstable and almost broken. Same with broken upkeep idea.
Going past armor value differences, cRPG has also significantly changed the soak/reduce values as well.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2014, 08:08:38 pm by Tydeus »
chadz> i wouldnt mind seeing some penis on my character

Offline Gurnisson

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Although one thing the Donkey Head April Fool showed me is that players i previously believed to be good, suck with low armour

Like who?
I voted Gurnisson cause of his fucking bendy pike, I swear noone can roflcopter stab like he can.

Offline Panos_

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dwada
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Offline Herezy92

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Re: Increase the difficulty requirement on Medium/Heavy tier armours.
« Reply #204 on: April 25, 2014, 04:05:00 pm »
+1
Is it only me who still thinks agi builds in heavy armour are useless?  :|
Can anybody name a few players doing well with agi build and heavy armour?
I am using an heavy armor Macropus.
But maybe i am useless  :)


Agi builds who wear heavy armor are the greatest idiocy of m&b
And so i am, as well, the most idiot guy here.  :(


Anyway, even if the poll is ended, i agree with what panos said. It can be intresting.
From my own experience, if you know how to play with heavy armor as agi-build, it can be very efficient.
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Offline BlueKnight

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Playing with light armor is NOT fun right now. Simply lowering armor values right now, without doing anything else, would make agi melee nearly unbearable. Very few people can play(and enjoy) melee with an agi build using sub 40 armor values. Both ranged, and teamwounds, tear you to pieces. Having half the melee on the server lower their armor by 20, would have drastic side effects. You cannot think of it as simply playing with that equipment in our current meta game.

Look at how people play with those builds right now. They play very passively, they play safe, they don't fight in the heart of the mobs, they fight on the outsides. If you do not have people to fill the center, or your center is made out of paper, what do you think will happen? How will people react to this? There can be only 2 outcomes. 1, they'll scatter and you'll have significantly smaller groups of conflict. 2(and much more likely), people will get just enough strength to return to our current status quo. Why? Well why do the min/maxers use those armors to begin with? Because they provide the best survivability, with the least penalty on pub servers.

I do have 15 body armour. I use heavy helmet, heavy boots, heavy gauntlets and I agree. I mostly try to flank and look for tiny fights where I'm not exposed to ranged this much and where I can avoid accidental teamhits on me. I sometimes die from 1 hit even with 21/21 and 7IF. I do play like this because I'm roleplaying and it's fun for me, now please make respecs free and give them 3 weeks cooldown, kthxbye. At least if you change shit in game, we will be able to adjust to the conditions or we could just try other builds to keep the variety up  :rolleyes: Seriously...

Continue with the topic, no more derailing.
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Offline Panos_

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Offline LordRichrich

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I think this is a great idea +1

Offline CrazyCracka420

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God damn it I hate it when I agree with Panos...I even showered this morning and I still feel dirty. 
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Offline Soldier_of_God

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Judging from your analysis, one would conclude that plate is most beneficial for agility builds, rather than strength. If thats the case, does that mean strength builds benefit the most from lower weight armors, or does agility get the most out of all armor values, all the way down to bare skin?

Regardless, I don't think you've thought about the questions I previously asked, well enough, so here's some more.

Is strength or agility better when...
  • Everyone has plate armor
  • Everyone has medium armor
  • Everyone has low armor
  • It's a siege
  • It's a battle
  • It's a strategus battle/siege
  • Team stack(s) are present
  • The server is mostly randoms
  • It's a 1v1
  • It's a 5v5
  • it's a 30v30
  • There is a low amount of ranged on
  • There is a high amount of ranged on
  • There is a low amount of cav on
  • There is a high amount of cav on
  • The map has a lot of hills
  • The terrain is mostly flat
These are the types of questions you should be asking. Now a days, when I think about the answer to these, one theme tends to shine through. Overall, strength is no better than agility. In many situations, strength is clearly superior, in others, agility is superior. 6 months ago, had I asked these questions, strength would have been the clear winner.

Strength better when everyone wears light, medium or heavy (everyone assuming the strength or agility character as well)
-I think that strength is the best when everyone wears light armor, due to 1 hit kills. strength is the only class that can do well in a heavy armor server.
Agility better when everyone wears light,medium, or heavy. its best to wear the lightest armor to take advantage of IF, and not to be too slow/low wpf penalized.
-I thing agility is the best when everyone uses medium, as its heavy enough for agility to survive, but light enough so that they can spam. heavy is extremely hard to compensate for, but for someone resourceful, can be extremely rewarding. wearing heavy armor in this class ensures survivability, but in general kills all the benefits agility is chosen for. light armor is a no no for agility, because its one shot one kill at that point. medium is best, and heavy is doable. a heavy agility fighter is much better off in a fight then a heavy strength character, considering both are of equal skill.

Strength is better in siege, battle or strat battle/siege
-Strength is best in sieges, and strat sieges; its impossible to deny that in a cramped space, less hits to kill is better.
Agility is better in siege, battle, or strat battle/siege.
- on an open field, generally speaking, an agility will fare better than a strength character, considering they aren't picked off by archers, a huge problem for low health agility builds as opposed to iron flesh high strength builds.

Team stacks and random
-strengths are better support (stacks), agilitys are better solo.

1v1,5v5,30v30
-once again, strengths are better in groups, whereas agilitys are better solo

low/high cav or low/high archers
-cav is pretty much the same for either build, but high amounts of archers will kill an agility quicker than a strength, generally speaking.

hills vs flat
-agility is better in either scenario as they move much quicker.

So what the current situation of battle is and what we are seeing more of is...

Strength:
strength characters are less common, as agility makes players better in 1v1 engagements. most heavy characters dress in medium to heavy armor to maximize their IF, effectively becoming tanks, and when in a team, becomes effective against most agility characters, who are quickly overwhelmed by brute strength in numbers. interestingly, there is a trend of heavy strength players fighting in light gear to maximize their lower wpf and by association, damage. strength players wearing light armor can decimate anyone with a couple of swings, making a resourceful strength build an effective assasin.

Agility:
agility characters, or balanced builds (which is still pretty agile), dominate the field. they swing faster, and get damage bonuses for their high agility comparable to strength benefits, though not as damage intensive; as this game is mostly based on who hits first and who can dodge/block attacks, agility characters have more ability to outmaneuver and outswing (spam) strength builds. since most players play as an individual, this class is common, and because of all the bonuses agility gives to wpf and athletics, there are many more agility characters taking advantage of heavy armor. most light/agility builds wear heavier armor than strength, on average.

bottom line:
agility builds have more incentive to wear heavy armor than strength, due to lack of penalty for doing so, as compared to a strength build. a plate armor strength build will always be outspammed by a plate armored agility build, and usually will still be slower than them when running.
having greater strength requirements will help eliminate silly builds like 15/18 (or 21 if min/maxing) being able to run around in plate spamming. only a strength hero should be wearing full plate comfortably.