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cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Noble Crassius on February 09, 2011, 10:17:47 pm

Title: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Noble Crassius on February 09, 2011, 10:17:47 pm
In every weapon class there is a general rule, that which is used overly by every one - is OP. Now I just want this thinking to move to shields.

What is the one shield that EVERY shielder has? A round one, in particular the Huscarl. This beastly shield absolutely needs a nerf because honestly if you don't have a shield breaker weapon this shield simply will not break unless 3-4 people are pounding on it for an extended period of time. As it is shielders NEVER have to manual block since 1. the high tier shields almost never break and 2. Shielders can just find one on the ground almost constantly. There is no way to fix 2 so we must look at #1.

Theres always the grab an axe argument but it has the same general message as: the archer argument - grab a shield (nerfed anyways) and the cav arguement - grab a pike (cav bumped nerfed anyways). I do not want to be forced to weild an axe to even have the chance of breaking this shield.

What I want is a general HP nerf to the higher end shields , instead of making them an end all only breakable via axe I want them to simply last longer then other shields (except board/steel shield I think only they should be nearly unbreakable) . The huscarl is for all intensive purposes unbreakble, any average shielder can grab this shield and not have to worry about nearly anything.

So as a shielder myself I have to say NERF HUSCARL (and by effect the heavy round shield)!!!!
*EDIT*
We can now attack back pretty well effectively, us 1handers now rival 2h/PA in speed/damage but our ultimate defense is making us imbalanced. How many times have you've seen an above average 2hander get struck down by a newbie 1hand? It happens more often then one would think. Simply put if a 2h/PA user (no axe) comes across a 1hander of equal "skill" (knowing how the game works) usually the 1hander comes up on top.

*EDIT #2*
IF this Hp nerf does go through I do think that it should be padded by;

1. buff to smaller shields
2. Weight reduction to those that recieve the HP nerf
3. And/or a speed increase for those effected by HP nerf

This will effectively make our shield faster (making it easier to block/counter attack with) but not let them last forever.

Let's not make this a class based discussion I as a one hander am lobbying for my own OP class to be nerfed. I beg ye leave your prejudices behind and lets intellectually debate.
Let the flame begin...
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Aldwyn on February 09, 2011, 10:26:34 pm
I've always been a knight style player and I never use non west european equipment, and it's sickening seeing people in plate armor scimitars and huscarl shields, things should be balanced.  There should be viable options that still allow good style.  There needs to be higher tier western style shields AND round/nord ones.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Gorath on February 09, 2011, 10:26:45 pm
And then every axe in the game would 1-hit the top tier shields like they do with any non-huscarl shield.

What would be the point of shields again?

The other arguments you put up:
Archers - get a shield = valid.  Suck it up or adapt
Cav - get a pike = valid.  Suck it up or adapt.
Shield - get an axe = valid.  Suck it up or adapt.
Or be like 90% of the rest of the 2h users and carry a barmace and crush spam.  That works too.
Throwing - get a shield = valid.  Suck it up or adapt.

I don't want to have to carry anything but my fists and a loin cloth just to kill everyone.  Nerf all armor, weapons, and shields.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: CpTKiL on February 09, 2011, 10:32:26 pm
shield don't need nerf but "Bonus against Shield" weapons need buff
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Mustang_Sweets on February 09, 2011, 10:38:10 pm
I disagree with this topic WHOLE FREAKIN HEARTEDLY, I was a polearm user forpre-patch and went to shield post patch. Shielder have it tough, they may not have to manually block but they have to foot work alot and have to time their strikes, pretty well in order to kill anything. Their animation is a shit ton slower then any other animation, and it annoyingly whiffs a lot more then that, because of the animation. Shielders can't face hug and they always have to stay in the thin line of distance for any killing ability. This is why i find this topic pointless and needing this input to end this argument.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Gorath on February 09, 2011, 10:38:44 pm
Really when it comes to seeing diversity in shields you won't get it just by nerfing round shields.  If they're still the best all around shield then they're still going to be the most seen on the field.  Rather, other shields need a buff in specific areas to make them attractive for certain playstyles and thus encouraging diversity.  The smaller heater sized shields need to be faster than they are, a real fighting shield.  The larger ones are obviously walls and so should be slower than they are and made for turtling like crazy.  Currently the popular shields perform well in every area.  Surface size, speed, durability.  The durability on them is fine, as is surface size, but the smaller shields should be even faster so that the dedicated melee fighters (opposed to turtlers) are more inclined to use them.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Aldwyn on February 09, 2011, 10:40:56 pm
why not give the fighter/small shields a buff and the giant ass round ones a nerfy.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Mustang_Sweets on February 09, 2011, 10:42:11 pm
(click to show/hide)
[/spoiler]

Most agreed
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Siboire on February 09, 2011, 10:42:47 pm
I mainly play as a one hander and whenever I fight a guy with enough str, my shield will "feel it"... If the fight becomes too long I can sometimes even lose my shield if there's 2 guys pounding it even without axes... On top of it, it's 6.5k so you would need to carry 2 of those if 1 is easily broke? You would not be able to afford a good weapon with a good armor set. So IMO no the huscarl is ok like it is.   

Also like Gorath said, everything as a counter. Shields have already 2 counters (and we're getting easily owned by any good player that knows how to use these weapons), there's the axes and crushtrough weapons. Go sit in front of players with str builds like Linden or Wallace and feel their mace on ur skull trough that "so-OP" huscarl shield. It won't protect you. A lot don't even need a str build to crush trough your shield. Same goes for lol-axe-spammers... they tenderize you so easily and eat you for breakfast if you can't reach them in time.

There, 2 counters for shield, isn't that enough for you? Oh and I forgot the throwers...

shield don't need nerf but "Bonus against Shield" weapons need buff

Really? Have you ever used a huscarl and saw it break under 2-3 well placed jarids, javs, wtv...? With the amount of throwers around (and the fact that almost, if not ALL good throwing weapons have a bonus vs shields) I can see my huscarl (with lvl 6 shield skill) change into dust without even getting the chancce to reach the guys on the wall in the siege servers. A single thrower can simply back peddle and needs only a couple of projectiles to ruin the huscarl... it is really NOT a god shield. 

(click to show/hide)
[/spoiler]

Most agreed

+1
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Christo on February 09, 2011, 10:43:36 pm
A shield rebalance would be fine, of course everyone will pick the ugly Huscarl shield, because it's very effective.
Other shields should become more popular, I'm getting sick of all these Huscarl wannabees with scimitars, etc.

Kite, Heater, and Board shields FTW.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: WaltF4 on February 09, 2011, 10:44:47 pm
NERF HUSCARL

I am fine with this. It would be nice if some of the other shields were actually good though.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Mustang_Sweets on February 09, 2011, 10:48:59 pm
If it makes any of you feel better , I used a buckler instead of a huscarl.

... And then I just stopped using a shield altogether and now I'm a 1h without a shield.(It slows me Down)
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Heroin on February 09, 2011, 11:37:12 pm
Everyone uses the huscarl shield because every other shield got nerfed into the dirt. People bitched and moaned about shields in general before because of the "force field" effect, and now shielders are pretty much required to use a huscarl if they don't want people shooting them in the feet/head, even with high shield skill.

I think huscarl shield is fine. It weighs 9!!!! That much weight slows you down a lot when paired with other equipment. If you have a problem with everyone running around with huscarl shields these days, campaign for the most recent shield changes to be reverted. I suspect you will have more luck.

Were this a vote, I definitely would not vote to nerf the huscarl shield. And I don't play a shielder. I play a 2hander, polearmer, and xbowman.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: UrLukur on February 10, 2011, 12:01:07 am
Round shields need a nerf, or other shields need a buff. Without forcefield, shield users who use non-round shields are hit from sides with ease, they actually have to aim their shields in proper direction. On the other hand, round shield users have it way more loose and have more margin of error when it comes to side strikes. While i'm ok with skillful usage, i feel that it should have it's up sides. Currently round shields are more durable, have better side protection and not meaningfully less speed. Where is the point in using kite shields and bucklers ? Weight ? It's anyway slowing you down considerably, and offer less protection against lolcrush. Speed ? It's only raising, not lowering it.

Overall, shields need serious revamp.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Mattressi on February 10, 2011, 12:02:30 am
Can we all at least agree that the 'rock paper scissors' mechanic that everyone claims exists, does not, in fact, exist? Previously people would say 'shield beats archer, archer beats 2h, 2h beats shield'. As it is, shielders beat archers ifthey've got a huscarl, archers beats 2h and 2h has a chance to beat shielders IF they are using an axe or crushthrough weapon. What exactly are swords for nowadays? Pre-patch it was much easier to take on a shielder (barring the no-lifers who were level 40+) as a 2h/polearm user; the weight of their shield significantly affected their speed. As it is now, almost all shielders have similar speed to a 2h/polearm user. The only disadvantage they have is that their weapons are limited to ~100 range, but even then, 2h have the same (or less) range on any weapons that are of high enough speed that they might actually be able to beat a 1h.
Hell, even using an axe hardly works. I've spent ages with a great bardiche beating on a shielder with high shield skill and an heirloomed huscarl, the whole time with me trying to frantically manual block their shots while they cruise through on easy mode. It's inevitable that I will eventually screw up a block (especially because feinting is so much easier for a shielder) and often more than once. Then I might finally break their shield (if their team mates haven't rushed in to rape me) an they essentially turn into a 2h with full health (seriously, that side sword is really just a katana with lower slash).
If I try to crushthrough, any decently fast 1h can just spam me (no, I don't have a loomed barmace, so I have to stick to mauls).
This isn't even mentioning the good ones who turtle it up until an axe comes out, then they take off their shield to protect it and take advantage of the huge speed difference between the weapons. As soon as you put away the axe to get out a faster sword, they turtle again.

Sorry for the bitching (and the slightly off topic rant). How do other people counter decent turtles reliably 1vs1? I find that I'm decent at fighting other 2h/polearms, but as soon as I have to fight any other class it just seems they have an advantage over me (which is why I have my 'rage' characters, so I can turtle it up or throw to get a better K/D and stop hating the mod  :lol: )
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Noble Crassius on February 10, 2011, 12:10:19 am
And then every axe in the game would 1-hit the top tier shields like they do with any non-huscarl shield.

What would be the point of shields again?

The other arguments you put up:
*blah blah blah cut for shortness*
I'm not suggesting to nerf it into the ground, just to a minor reduction. I brought up the other argument cuz in each case the whines prevailed so it should in this case too.  :D
I disagree with this topic WHOLE FREAKIN HEARTEDLY, I was a polearm user forpre-patch and went to shield post patch. Shielder have it tough, they may not have to manually block but they have to foot work alot and have to time their strikes, pretty well in order to kill anything. Their animation is a shit ton slower then any other animation, and it annoyingly whiffs a lot more then that, because of the animation. Shielders can't face hug and they always have to stay in the thin line of distance for any killing ability. This is why i find this topic pointless and needing this input to end this argument.
Sorry to say but you just might be a sucky shielder. We have the easiest play style right-click face-hug up-attack. 90% of the player base falls to this. I'm a shielder and I find our play style the easiest one to maintain I get so bored I take risks on purpose just to see if I CAN die. I'm not talking about attack related issues I finally think 1hands are on par with 2h/polearms in terms of speed and damage but now that thats that our ultimate defense needs to be nerfed.
... And then I just stopped using a shield altogether and now I'm a 1h without a shield.(It slows me Down)
The truth comes out  :lol:
Everyone uses the huscarl shield because every other shield got nerfed into the dirt. People bitched and moaned about shields in general before because of the "force field" effect, and now shielders are pretty much required to use a huscarl if they don't want people shooting them in the feet/head, even with high shield skill.

I think huscarl shield is fine. It weighs 9!!!! That much weight slows you down a lot when paired with other equipment. If you have a problem with everyone running around with huscarl shields these days, campaign for the most recent shield changes to be reverted. I suspect you will have more luck.

Were this a vote, I definitely would not vote to nerf the huscarl shield. And I don't play a shielder. I play a 2hander, polearmer, and xbowman.
Everyone was using the Huscarl way before the patch it's been the main shield for a while now. It weighs 9 yes but the other top tier shields weigh MORE and only for a little more protection. Theres a big difference between how much 9 slows you down and the 11 a board shield does.

We shielders now have the ability to counter attack pretty damn effectively at least I have no trouble getting kills. I just don't want shields that can last for a whole round despite dozens of hits. It's not fair that we don't have to manual block AT ALL most of the time.

I simply want to force shielders to manual block more. Lets make "easy mode" a little less easy, no?
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Gorath on February 10, 2011, 12:14:14 am
It's not fair that we don't have to manual block AT ALL most of the time.

Then it's not fair that shielders have to expend skill points to both use a shield in general, and make it not a big pile of suck (IE:  Fragile as a bird soaked in liquid nitrogen).
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Noble Crassius on February 10, 2011, 12:17:24 am
Then it's not fair that shielders have to expend skill points to both use a shield in general, and make it not a big pile of suck (IE:  Fragile as a bird soaked in liquid nitrogen).
I have 3 shield skill, use a heavy round shield (just recently down-graded from the huscarl) my shield will not break to a single opponent not using an axe weapon. It will usually take 3-4 non axe wielding people to cause my shield great harm. When it breaks I grab another. So there's that...Please stop lobbying for your class and think about what I'm trying to do..(balance our class)

Poll added. First post updated.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Nogar on February 10, 2011, 12:34:20 am
nah way man... nah way!  :(
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Noble Crassius on February 10, 2011, 12:58:10 am
If this Hp nerf does go through I do think that it should be padded by;

1. buff to smaller shields
2. Weight reduction to those that recieve the HP nerf
3. And/or a speed increase for those effected by HP nerf

This will effectively make our shield faster (making it easier to block/counter attack with) but not let them last forever.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Heroin on February 10, 2011, 01:08:18 am
If this Hp nerf does go through I do think that it should be padded by;

1. buff to smaller shields
2. Weight reduction to those that recieve the HP nerf
3. And/or a speed increase for those effected by HP nerf

This will effectively make our shield faster (making it easier to block/counter attack with) but not let them last forever.

This would be reasonable. A straight nerf to huscarl would not, imo.

Edit: Also, I break a huscarl shield in 3-4 hits with an axe with no speed bonus. Tested recently on the duel server.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Gorath on February 10, 2011, 02:25:39 am
I have 3 shield skill, use a heavy round shield (just recently down-graded from the huscarl) my shield will not break to a single opponent not using an axe weapon. It will usually take 3-4 non axe wielding people to cause my shield great harm. When it breaks I grab another. So there's that...Please stop lobbying for your class and think about what I'm trying to do..(balance our class)

Poll added. First post updated.

Actually if you had any idea what was going on in the world of the NA servers you would know that I'm always either playing a 2her or polearm character.  Period.  This isn't lobbying for my class, it's lobbying against an unnecessary nerf to the weakest melee class and a buff to the two strongest.  Your heavy round shield, at shield skill 3, will break in 2-4 hits from my Mancleaver.  It will break on my other character using his great long axe in 2-3 hits as well.  I've tested a variety of shields on the duel server with those in my clan that do use shields at high levels (Dyval is a champ about letting me abuse him for testing and he has 6 shield skill with an elite cav shield, heirloomed and I still chew through it with my great long axe or mancleaver pretty damn fast).
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Noble Crassius on February 10, 2011, 03:16:02 am
Actually if you had any idea what was going on in the world of the NA servers you would know that I'm always either playing a 2her or polearm character.  Period.  This isn't lobbying for my class, it's lobbying against an unnecessary nerf to the weakest melee class and a buff to the two strongest.
Lol sorry to say Gorath but I don't keep personal tabs on you, I never was one for hero worship you see. This nerf could be considered a BUFF why? For all purposes 1hand are the weakest cuz we are SLOW (run speed). Our top tier shields slow us down so much it's hard to maintain people in our reach. The biggest problem I have is back peddling spammers, I'd imagine is across the board. Nerf the HP BUFF the speed and LOWER the weight and we will have less TURTLES and more KILLERS! My goal is to get shielders out of their shell and give them a chance to kill. 1h wep speed has already been buffed to the point where people are whining this is the only way left.
Your heavy round shield, at shield skill 3, will break in 2-4 hits from my Mancleaver.  It will break on my other character using his great long axe in 2-3 hits as well.  I've tested a variety of shields on the duel server with those in my clan that do use shields at high levels (Dyval is a champ about letting me abuse him for testing and he has 6 shield skill with an elite cav shield, heirloomed and I still chew through it with my great long axe or mancleaver pretty damn fast).
Your Mancleaver (nice name lol) most likely master worked (correct me if I'm wrong) probably has an insane amount of damage on it, no? however I highly doubt it will only take 2-3 hits for my shield to break i'd imagine more like 4-5 but I guess I have nothing to do but believe you *shrug*. (are we talking about the 1h version or the 2h version??)

First post modified yet again. Included padding.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: rustyspoon on February 10, 2011, 03:58:47 am
I have to disagree with this. I use an heirloomed heavy round shield and trust me, it breaks a lot as it is. 3 or 4 hits with an axe and no more shield. I just don't see the shields as they are being any kind of problem. If shields were weaker, what would be the point? Why not just make a 2 hander or a polearm user?

I use a shield because I like the playstyle. I find it fun. I don't see how they are overpowered at all really. Having a shield makes you very slow, which in turn makes it a hell of a lot harder to feint fast 2 handers.

If shields need any changes, it would be to have shield speed actually mean something. As it is, they are all equally fast. If certain shields got an actual speed boost that meant something, maybe people would start to use different shields.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Gorath on February 10, 2011, 04:34:10 am
Lol sorry to say Gorath but I don't keep personal tabs on you, I never was one for hero worship you see.
I don't expect you to.  Was merely making a point in a semi-dickish manner.   :wink:  I haven't played a shielder very much at all since the patch because I really don't see much point other than for preference in style (which I can understand).
This nerf could be considered a BUFF why? For all purposes 1hand are the weakest cuz we are SLOW (run speed). Our top tier shields slow us down so much it's hard to maintain people in our reach. The biggest problem I have is back peddling spammers, I'd imagine is across the board. Nerf the HP BUFF the speed and LOWER the weight and we will have less TURTLES and more KILLERS!
Or we'll just have less shielders overall.  My point is that a double act balance adjustment like this is the wrong way to go about it.  Give incentives for the other shields to be used first.  THEN if the big shields are a problem (which I don't think they are at the moment either) work on nerfing them.
My goal is to get shielders out of their shell and give them a chance to kill. 1h wep speed has already been buffed to the point where people are whining this is the only way left.
I'd like that as well, however shielders aren't an issue atm anyways.  You even acknowledge that 1hers are the weakest of the holy trinity (2h/pole/1h) of melee.  The shields are annoying you and they have alot of haters, I hear it in VOIP all the time.  Hate shields.  They're not strong, but "gay" or "annoying" or "ez-mode".  Not a balance thing, just a personal dislike for them is rather prevelant among the non-shielders since they're seen as lesser players.
Your Mancleaver (nice name lol) most likely master worked (correct me if I'm wrong) probably has an insane amount of damage on it, no? however I highly doubt it will only take 2-3 hits for my shield to break i'd imagine more like 4-5 but I guess I have nothing to do but believe you *shrug*. (are we talking about the 1h version or the 2h version??)
The 2h version.  Unbalanced, and actually I just retired and heirloomed it for the first time today.  It used to deal 43c.  Now it does 46c.  No bonus vs shields (which I honestly think it should have since they made it unbalanced for god knows why).
I have to disagree with this. I use an heirloomed heavy round shield and trust me, it breaks a lot as it is. 3 or 4 hits with an axe and no more shield. I just don't see the shields as they are being any kind of problem. If shields were weaker, what would be the point? Why not just make a 2 hander or a polearm user?

I use a shield because I like the playstyle. I find it fun. I don't see how they are overpowered at all really. Having a shield makes you very slow, which in turn makes it a hell of a lot harder to feint fast 2 handers.

If shields need any changes, it would be to have shield speed actually mean something. As it is, they are all equally fast. If certain shields got an actual speed boost that meant something, maybe people would start to use different shields.

This is how I see it as well for the most part.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Kalam on February 10, 2011, 05:02:40 am
If you have trouble against shielders in general as another melee build and you're not using really short weapons, you need to work on your overall game. The biggest advantage to being a shielder is that you don't die as much to ranged builds.

My preferred play style will always be a light armoured 2-hander, but I have a tendency to get slaughtered before reaching the battle with it, so I've stopped playing it as much.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Noble Crassius on February 10, 2011, 05:06:46 am
My heavy round shield (unloomed) also breaks in 3-4 hits from axes  :shock: so i guess if any one can take anything away from this thread it's that looming the heavy round is useless lol. I think I've said all I can say on this issue except:

Damage Calcs!
15 str 5ps 152 wpf 0 armor 33c (my build/preferred wep)
    * Minimum: 53
    * Average: 53
    * Maximum: 53

Huscarls Round Shield:
weight 9
requirement 4
hit points 410
body armor 19
spd rtng 81
shield width 43
Can't use on horseback

If I make a mistake some where please tell me.  53(my damage) - 19(resistance)=34. So if I understand this right every time I hit the Huscarl shield I should be taking around 34 hit points away. 410/34 = 12ish

So not including the innate bonus some one would get from having at LEAST shield skill 4 it will take me 12 hits to completely destroy the Huscarl. Hmph I would actually be ok with that, it's high but not that high. Does any one have the formula for the shield skill? Thinks it's been asked and no one knows huh...

Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Noble Crassius on February 10, 2011, 05:08:21 am
If you have trouble against shielders in general as another melee build and you're not using really short weapons, you need to work on your overall game. The biggest advantage to being a shielder is that you don't die as much to ranged builds.

My preferred play style will always be a light armoured 2-hander, but I have a tendency to get slaughtered before reaching the battle with it, so I've stopped playing it as much.
It's not that I'm having trouble per say, its that after I hit a shield 6-10 times I get BORED (and tired maybe causing me to miss a block or two >.>). Good shielders (or the rly bad ones i.e. turtles) will never die unless some one comes in and rapes them in the ass. If shielders could become more offensive based and less defensive based I would be oh so happy (and might want to play on my main again)
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Kalam on February 10, 2011, 05:53:50 am
It's not that I'm having trouble per say, its that after I hit a shield 6-10 times I get BORED (and tired maybe causing me to miss a block or two >.>). Good shielders (or the rly bad ones i.e. turtles) will never die unless some one comes in and rapes them in the ass. If shielders could become more offensive based and less defensive based I would be oh so happy (and might want to play on my main again)

Here's how you can stop that: just sidestep and slash with a long 2h/polearm. It doesn't matter if the shielder has high athletics, it's just a matter of finding the right angle. It'll 'go through the shield' just like it goes through blocks on shorter weapons. I do this all the time to shielders when I'm a 2-hander/polearm user.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Diomedes on February 10, 2011, 06:51:03 am
I see no issue with the huscarl besides the fact it's ubiquitous.  I'm all for people using sensible gear but I'd prefer to see a bit more diversity (Huscarl shield with fur lining?  Free trimming anyone?).

Huscarl shields makes 1h+shield a viable build in long/intense engagements.  I see no reason to punitively cripple sword+shield warriors in the middle of a battle just because they've been fighting "too much" for one round.  Weakening shields in a serious way is like cutting quiver size in half for archers or collapsing tired horses under lancers.  Each of these builds, like any other, has strengths which are difficult to overcome when faced head on.  Shielder are no different, they often just require a little more patience to overcome than most other builds.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Xant on February 10, 2011, 10:21:30 am
Here's how you can stop that: just sidestep and slash with a long 2h/polearm. It doesn't matter if the shielder has high athletics, it's just a matter of finding the right angle. It'll 'go through the shield' just like it goes through blocks on shorter weapons. I do this all the time to shielders when I'm a 2-hander/polearm user.

I do think he said "good shield users." They're not just gonna let you sidestep and slash them in the ribs.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Camaris on February 10, 2011, 11:12:12 am
I do think Huscarl should be nerfed => it should get a lot more weight
Or it should cost about 8-10k because its best so it should cost the most.

But in addition there should be more skill: 4,5,6 shields being worth it.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Raskolnikov on February 10, 2011, 12:46:47 pm
Though shielders are my nemesis, I don't want to see them take too much of a nerf. I'd be happy with an increase in weight for all shields (slow you bastards down a bit more :D ) and an actual buff in stats for those shields which are at the moment rarely ever used.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: bredeus on February 10, 2011, 03:11:04 pm
Though shielders are my nemesis, I don't want to see them take too much of a nerf. I'd be happy with an increase in weight for all shields (slow you bastards down a bit more :D ) but an actual buff in stats for those shields which are at the moment rarely ever used.
mate shields are heaviest than in native already.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: bruce on February 10, 2011, 03:27:09 pm
The problem is that except Huscarl shield, and a few other larger round shields (heavy round shield is a cheap option), the "vertical" shields aren't really protective from ranged. Even the board shield, which is visually goddamn large, has much less defacto coverage then a huscarl, with 28 width vs 43 width. Huscarl is basically 53% wider. Wtf?

Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Noble Crassius on February 10, 2011, 04:51:13 pm
Or we'll just have less shielders overall.
Less shielders over all will be a GOOD thing. There are so many shielders out there now with more and more popping up every day its hard not to say this class is op. This class can make an average player top the score boards pretty consistently (me before I realized I was playing a horribly OP class and stopped trying so hard.)
You even acknowledge that 1hers are the weakest of the holy trinity (2h/pole/1h) of melee. 
Yes but context is always a good thing to include, why we are weakest is because were so encumbered we act like TURTLES. I think were OP in the fact that (since none disagreed with this I have to assume its agreed) we finally can counter-attack pretty damn effectively (we can't really get spammed to death anymore - 2hands/PA HAVE to block against us) but our untouchable defense is still there! Our class is afforded HIGH OFFENSE and UNPENATRATBLE DEFENSE can you say that’s true of any other class?
The shields are annoying you and they have alot of haters, I hear it in VOIP all the time.  Hate shields.  They're not strong, but "gay" or "annoying" or "ez-mode".  Not a balance thing, just a personal dislike for them is rather prevelant among the non-shielders since they're seen as lesser players.
It's more than a personal dislike for them I've spent 7 gens as a shielder starting from pre-patch, and I got to say I highly dislike my class as it is now cause it's so OP. Lets not take a look at it stat wise but from the fact that our blocking is so easy we only die due to US making a mistake. That is the ONLY way for us to die. That’s ok tho because it's what shields are for. However now that we can attack so effectively is it really fair to everyone else?

 I don't use my 1hander anymore why? Because I get no pleasure out of killing some one anymore it’s so EASY.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Xant on February 10, 2011, 05:01:05 pm
You even acknowledge that 1hers are the weakest of the holy trinity (2h/pole/1h) of melee.

No, they really aren't. Overall, they're by far the strongest. Their only weakness? Axes, and even then.... you can still have a weapon superior to a katana in your hands after your shield is broken.

Playing a shielder is ridiculously easy, really. Mostly because people just suck so hard vs them, but as a 2hander I'd rather fight two really skilled 2handers at once than one really skilled shielder with a heirloomed sidesword. But yeah, basically you get tons of free kills by just holding RMB, watching and giggling as people run at you with a chambered attack.. then you attack, run forward, score a hit. Then hold RMB again, no matter how skilled the opponent is, it doesn't matter. He can do the most awesome feint ever, you can just rofl as long as your finger doesn't cramp.

But hey, I'm not calling for a nerf. I was just curious to see how hard it can be to play a 1hander after all these requests to buff it/nerf others... and it's not hard, at all. It's just like 2hander minus the need to block (hardest part of the game) and having tons of retards misjudge your range totally.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Elmetiacos on February 10, 2011, 05:21:43 pm
Playing a shielder is ridiculously easy, really. Mostly because people just suck so hard vs them, but as a 2hander I'd rather fight two really skilled 2handers at once than one really skilled shielder with a heirloomed sidesword. But yeah, basically you get tons of free kills by just holding RMB, watching and giggling as people run at you with a chambered attack.. then you attack, run forward, score a hit. Then hold RMB again, no matter how skilled the opponent is, it doesn't matter. He can do the most awesome feint ever, you can just rofl as long as your finger doesn't cramp.
Bah.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Noble Crassius on February 10, 2011, 05:26:07 pm
I have a dream! That one day little girl shielders and little boy shielders can be considered EQUAL to their 2h/PA peers. That ONE DAY shielders will not be viewed as a lower class of play but instead EQUAL! To do this we need to stop CRUTCHING ON OUR SHIELDS , let’s not let any but the heaviest among us last 10+ hits! Let’s not be so OVER-ENCUMBERED by our shields that we are for all intensive purposes snapping turtles (SUB-HUMAN). This is no longer a call to nerf ONE SHIELD but to completely REVOLUTIONIZE how shields are viewed and used!

New poll, If you have an idea to make it unbiased as possible/improvements please feel free to share them.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Spawny on February 10, 2011, 05:43:50 pm
Ever tried taking your fancy shield to the duelservers?

I have. Tons of times. I get owned by every single good dueler out there.

Feinting with a shield is slower -> Easier to block. Especially with a huscarl shield. I changed to a knightly heater or elite cav shield for more speed and did a bit better.

If you don't turn fast enough, they can bypass your shield from the side and just swing through it. Something that does not happen with a plain right block when I put my shield away.

On a battle or siege server, when I've fought a decent manual blocker and managed to kill him, more often than not my shield won't take another 2 hits before breaking. I've never seen a 2h sword break.

When looking at the score boards, it's still not just shielders in the top 10, but mostly a variety of classes. Just because everyone uses the huscarl shield doesn't mean it's OP, it just means it's the best shield around.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Xant on February 10, 2011, 05:50:00 pm
Ever tried taking your fancy shield to the duelservers?

I have. Tons of times. I get owned by every single good dueler out there.

Presumably, then, you don't get owned by good duelers when you're not using a shield?
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: bruce on February 10, 2011, 06:04:45 pm
Bah, take your 2h/polearm vs shield arguments elsewhere. This is about internal shield balance. Non-round shields suck too much compared to round shields.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Noble Crassius on February 10, 2011, 06:07:33 pm
Good points, let me see if I can't address them to your likeing..
Ever tried taking your fancy shield to the duelservers?
Shields are not for duels (except buckler) you'll get owned by back peddle spam. Plus duelist are usually top of the line players if you have to bring a shield to even stand a chance against them then this game type isn’t for you
I have. Tons of times. I get owned by every single good dueler out there.
The TURTH!
Feinting with a shield is slower -> Easier to block. Especially with a huscarl shield. I changed to a knightly heater or elite cav shield for more speed and did a bit better.
I want to NERF the survivability of top teir shields and make them faster/less encumbering
If you don't turn fast enough, they can bypass your shield from the side and just swing through it. Something that does not happen with a plain right block when I put my shield away.
This happens occasionally and is due to both of the players skilled involved. This is a personnel issue of yours and not readily acceptable as a balancing argument
On a battle or siege server, when I've fought a decent manual blocker and managed to kill him, more often than not my shield won't take another 2 hits before breaking. I've never seen a 2h sword break.
Should you be beating these good players so readily? I mean would you be able to beat them consistently with say a 2h? And just pick another one off the ground  :lol:
When looking at the score boards, it's still not just shielders in the top 10, but mostly a variety of classes. Just because everyone uses the huscarl shield doesn't mean it's OP, it just means it's the best shield around.
This is true only because most good players ditch the shield asap because it's viewed as EZ mode. people see 1handers as UP because it’s the goto choice for newbies and noobs alike but when a DECENT player stays with this build it becomes deadly

Let me sum up my points of this whole thread to those just joining in:
1. Nerf the survivabilty of higher teir shields - solving the biggest complaints from 2h/PA users.
2. In exchange make the shields less encumbering - solving the biggest issue facing 1h currently, which is struggling to keep people in our wep range
3. If HP gets heavily nerfed (more than -100 hp to top teir shield) A nice speed bonus should be included as well to make our feinting/counters faster

This will decrease surviabilty and increase our ability to kill - putting us on par with 2h/pa users.
 
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Vygar on February 10, 2011, 06:15:50 pm
Primary 1h/Shield users trade a great deal in terms of mobility and attack initiation speed when using their weapon and shield simultaneously.  If anything, Shield Skill should Contribute to Damage and/or speed in order to offset this discrepancy.  There really is too little return.

I've very recently abandoned my Side Sword/Steel Shield toon for an all Polearm character with such great success that  I don't even carry a shield at all anymore.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Noble Crassius on February 10, 2011, 06:19:29 pm
Primary 1h/Shield users trade a great deal in terms of mobility and attack initiation speed when using their weapon and shield simultaneously.  If anything, Shield Skill should Contribute to Damage and/or speed in order to offset this discrepancy.  There really is too little return.

I've very recently abandoned my Side Sword/Steel Shield toon for an all Polearm character with such great success that  I don't even carry a shield at all anymore.
Yes that’s exactly what I want changed!! but to do this a HP nerf would have to be in order I mean lets face it unless an axe is brought out our shields won't break to a single opponent, which basically = I win...Unless you know you fuck it up.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: WaltF4 on February 10, 2011, 06:24:00 pm
Even the board shield, which is visually goddamn large, has much less defacto coverage then a huscarl, with 28 width vs 43 width.
I need to do some more testing, but I am fairly certain that shield skill has a vastly greater impact on expanding vertical coverage than on expanding horizontal coverage. It also appears that the width of the shield is what determines the size of the arc in which it will block melee attacks. The vertical dimensions do not seem to play a roll in blocking melee attacks. In general, it seems that shield width is more important than shield height, and every non-buckler round shield is wider than every non-round shield.

If you don't turn fast enough, they can bypass your shield from the side and just swing through it. Something that does not happen with a plain right block when I put my shield away.
I have noticed this a lot since the patch. I would like to sling my shield and use my awlpike with two hands more often, since I feel more consistent when manually blocking. However, I will often be shot shortly after putting it away, so I usually don't.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Murrogh on February 10, 2011, 06:52:08 pm
I have tried using shields other than the huscarl. I usually swapped it out for the heater or cavalry. In a regular battle, I noticed a little difference due to shield speed but not enough to justify the drawbacks.

The most annoying thing with the small shields was their lack of ability to block arrows when they are not actively blocking. With a huscarl shield, all but the head and the bottom of the legs are protected while moving. The other shields leave a large portion of the legs and torso vulnerable. 

Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Gorath on February 10, 2011, 07:05:34 pm
I mean lets face it unless an axe is brought out our shields won't break to a single opponent, which basically = I win...Unless you know you fuck it up.

False.  Only the huscarl, plate shield, and heavy board shield are guaranteed to just "survive" for a long period of time while blocking.

A shield should just break to a single opponent?  Really?  What's the point of one then in the battle and siege servers then?  You're not dueling with them.  You're fighting 10, 20, 30 hell even 40 opponents sometimes.  But a shield should break to a single dude without an axe?  What kind of balance would that be?  Honestly they're fine.  They serve their purpose in battle.  Saying that the shield not breaking = I win is about as logical as me saying your 2h sword won't break from blocking = you win.... Unless you know, you fuck it up.  If shield HP is nerfed and especially nerfed to the point that they're only going to survive fighting one guy then there's 2 options:
Never play a shielder because the price, speed malus, combat efficiency decrease and skill investment of shields just aren't worth it.
Bring 1 weapon and 3 shields.

I think most people would just pick option 1.  Why?  You say you want to force them to manual block more.  If that's the case then why would anyone play a 1h/shielder instead of a 2her or polearm user where you get better animations, range, damage and cost efficiency?  Other than showing off what logical reason would there be for ever playing one instead of a 2her/polearm user?  None.  Honestly as it is, other than a preference in style there's not much reason to play a shielder instead of a 2h/polearm user but I'll refrain from ranting about it more.  Currently with the way shields are, except for the huscarl and heavy board shield, it's easier than ever to just shoot the guy behind the shield either in the head or the foot and bypassing that shield.  For the huscarlers/board users well they're taking a huge weight hit and upkeep hit along with skill point investment so they deserve to have defense unless outplayed.

Unless we really want to make it fair and put up a "parry" skill into c-rpg for 2hers and polearms to be able to block efficiently with speed and without their weapon breaking.  Personally as a 2her/polearm user I just don't have an issue with shields at all, and find them completely full of "meh".  I still have a character that uses a shield (brown heater or elite cav shield) and military cleaver but honestly I just don't see any point to him when I spent 6 points in shield and it still breaks every round just about while having shitty reach, slower speed, more upkeep and less damage than my 2her/pole characters.  I like the look, but it just performs under par compared to the other melee styles.  It is nice to advance while holding RMB vs all the throw spam, but after a few axes and lances the shield breaks anyways so I'm stuck fighting 1h/no shield which just makes me miss having range+damage+speed that I get from the non-1h lines.

You want to see less 1h/shielders in the game.  Said so yourself.  That sheds light on the nerf thread here.  Personally I'm glad to see shielders again.  God knows that pre-patch everyone was a 2her user with a spattering of polearms and a rare shielder here and there.  It's nice to see more shielders on the field that makes the game look more like a medieval battlefield instead of a bunch of dudes running around with random models on their lightsabers.

/wall of text
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: LordBerenger on February 10, 2011, 07:10:36 pm
I have a suggestion that might get me flamed at for.

People don't want to use axes to break shields right?

So why not just make Swords/Blunt weapons which will also have the shield break effect?

I don't know how archers would do but there's probably a solution for that too.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: EponiCo on February 10, 2011, 07:35:50 pm
Lolwat?
No swiss army knives. It can be added to a clearly identifiable (*) sword with sucky stab, low speed, low reach and/or unbalanced tag like all the axes have. That pretty much leaves only the war cleaver if it's speed is reduced.
(*) Having to guess if that's a heavy bastard sword with shieldbreaking ability or a bastard with spamability isn't fair.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Noble Crassius on February 10, 2011, 07:36:09 pm
Would quote but damn Gorath that is a wall of text. you forgot some shields in that list of unbreakable’s but I'll over look that tiny detail. You see I don't want to nit pick on one part of a post that I disagree with I view the WHOLE picture. Alright I over exaggerated, I'll admit that for most shielders what I said is not the case  /agree. (but there is the potential for it to be true and you know this).

However what annoys me the most about you right now is how you completely ignore the rest of my points and post a wall against one tincy little sentence.

I offer an olive branch of sorts. Let us drop this Sophist dialouge trying to convince the masses and lets get down to the basics. I just want to ask you some questions so I know your stances and beliefs. Will you answer my questions?
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Gorath on February 10, 2011, 07:50:52 pm
Would quote but damn Gorath that is a wall of text. you forgot some shields in that list of unbreakable’s but I'll over look that tiny detail. You see I don't want to nit pick on one part of a post that I disagree with I view the WHOLE picture. Alright I over exaggerated, I'll admit that for most shielders what I said is not the case  /agree. (but there is the potential for it to be true and you know this).

However what annoys me the most about you right now is how you completely ignore the rest of my points and post a wall against one tincy little sentence.
Just stream of conciousness writing.  I'm quite prone to random walls of text.

I offer an olive branch of sorts. Let us drop this Sophist dialouge trying to convince the masses and lets get down to the basics. I just want to ask you some questions so I know your stances and beliefs. Will you answer my questions?
No need for an olive branch, this isn't a fight.  Just a discussion.   :wink:  And yep, I got no problem with answering any question.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Leshma on February 10, 2011, 07:58:59 pm
I'm positively sure that none of people who think that 1H+shield is OP never played that class.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Formless on February 10, 2011, 08:01:04 pm
How awesome would it be if 2 handers and polearms broke in combat. :D
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Gorath on February 10, 2011, 08:04:40 pm
How awesome would it be if 2 handers and polearms broke in combat. :D

1hers too after blocking.  And disarms.  I mean shields break in combat, it only makes sense that realistically weapons would as well.  Pfft, block indefinately with no skill investment?  OP imo.
*I actually do think it'd be an interesting mechanic*
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Spawny on February 10, 2011, 08:27:33 pm
Shields are not for duels (except buckler) you'll get owned by back peddle spam.
If you bring a buckler, you might aswell manual block. The thing is so tiny, you get hit by side swings if you don't turn into the incomming swing.

Plus duelist are usually top of the line players if you have to bring a shield to even stand a chance against them then this game type isn’t for you.
Where did I say I have to bring a shield to stand a chance against them? I'm an average manual blocker and I have more chance beating good duelists with my level 21 polearms guys than I have with my level 30 1h/shielder

Feinting with a shield is slower -> Easier to block. Especially with a huscarl shield. I changed to a knightly heater or elite cav shield for more speed and did a bit better.
I want to NERF the survivability of top teir shields and make them faster/less encumbering.
I agree with the last part. No clue why you would nerf the survivability of the top tier shields. It's what makes a top tier shield a top tier shield. Anyway, gorath made a nice post why nerfing survivability shouldn't happen.

This happens occasionally and is due to both of the players skilled involved. This is a personnel issue of yours and not readily acceptable as a balancing argument.
It's actually due to weird shield hitboxes. According to the animation and the model, the sword should hit the edge of the shield and be blocked but instead it goes straight through. I'm not talking about someone getting behind me.

On a battle or siege server, when I've fought a decent manual blocker and managed to kill him, more often than not my shield won't take another 2 hits before breaking. I've never seen a 2h sword break.
Should you be beating these good players so readily? I mean would you be able to beat them consistently with say a 2h? And just pick another one off the ground.
So just because I picked sword&board I'm not allowed to fight more than 1 battle vs an equal opponent? After that first battle, my only advantage of picking a 1h weapon (the shield) should be destroyed so I get to play with a range/damage penalty compared to 2h/polearms. Right. Makes sense. Main reason why I rolled a polearms guy and get kills easier about 10 levels earlier.

This is true only because most good players ditch the shield asap because it's viewed as EZ mode. people see 1handers as UP because it’s the goto choice for newbies and noobs alike but when a DECENT player stays with this build it becomes deadly.
Hmmm... So there's no noob 2h spammers and stuff? Anyway, weird argument.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Noble Crassius on February 10, 2011, 08:54:05 pm
I agree with the last part. No clue why you would nerf the survivability of the top tier shields. It's what makes a top tier shield a top tier shield. Anyway, gorath made a nice post why nerfing survivability shouldn't happen.
Look at the poll most people think shields are fine as is, to buff one aspect we will have to nerf another. I for one would rather have a slightly less durable high tier shield that is faster/less encumbering would you agree to the same?
It's actually due to weird shield hitboxes. According to the animation and the model, the sword should hit the edge of the shield and be blocked but instead it goes straight through. I'm not talking about someone getting behind me.
Ah well this rarely happens to me and when it does its cause I wasn't facing my opponent all the way so I usually think it's deserved. If its a bug then I'm sure it will be fixed and then still not a balance issue.
Hmmm... So there's no noob 2h spammers and stuff? Anyway, weird argument.
No, just more noob swordnboards around because you won't have to manual block.

The rest I just have to go with it because well I don't know you and have to take your word that your a good duelist.

I'm positively sure that none of people who think that 1H+shield is OP never played that class.
I played this class extensively and it is now more powerful then it has ever been. I think it's op in some ways, and up in others.

Gorath I ask you that when you answer my question that they be as short and simple as possible, so as not to dilute your answers in another wall of text. I would ask one by one but since we are on a forum and I want to keep interest I'll ask a few at a time.

#1. Do you agree with my stance that 1hs can finally attack and counter attack effectively? Meaning our attack speed and damage is not greatly lacking?

#2. Do you agree with my stance that for all practical purposes holding RMB makes 1hs invulnerable to most standard attacks? (discounting the weird shield glitch spawny brought up)
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Gorath on February 10, 2011, 09:44:07 pm
#1. Do you agree with my stance that 1hs can finally attack and counter attack effectively? Meaning our attack speed and damage is not greatly lacking? 
Speed: 
Without a shield - yes. 
With a shield - meh, it's still slow due to the shield affecting feinting/counterattack speed.  Hence the prevalence of 98+ speed 1hers being the standard on the field to make up for this.  Side sword, spammitars, picks, espanadas, etc.  Don't see much variety in 1h weaponry either along with lack of shield variety.  I've only seen 1 other person besides myself use the military cleaver for example and he's in my clan.

Damage: 
Meh, 1her damage is still poop, but then again it's a 1her so it's going to be lower than 2h/polearms.

#2. Do you agree with my stance that for all practical purposes holding RMB makes 1hs invulnerable to most standard attacks? (discounting the weird shield glitch spawny brought up)

From the front, sure.  That's kind of the purpose of a shield.  At least in this limited game.  In reality shields are as much an offensive weapon as a defensive tool (shield bashes pack alot of force and are quite capable of shattering bones even behind armor).

Look at the poll most people think shields are fine as is
This should tell you something imo.
I for one would rather have a slightly less durable high tier shield that is faster/less encumbering would you agree to the same?
I do agree, which is why I use the heater shield or elite cav shield.  Those are exactly what you are asking for.  High tier shield that is less durable (more than slightly) and are faster/less encumbering.  There's also the knightly heater shield and knightly kite shield for this purpose as well.  Problem is, you'll get shot by ranged weapons in either the foot or head alot unlike the bigger huscarl shield, which I suspect, along with it's durability, is why the majority of people use it.  If you want a shield that fits the role you are asking for, do what I do (and a few other players) and go for one of the high tier shields that fulfils the role you're looking for.  If anything buff the speed of those types of shield a bit more and you might see more fighters going for them instead of huscarls, which will get left to the turtlers.

(You could always use a buckler too, but they look retarded)
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Xant on February 10, 2011, 09:50:04 pm
1her damage is poop? Yeah, sure.... 1h weapons 2hit me more than any other weapon type.

And actually, 60% of the people who voted think shields /aren't/ fine as is.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Vexus on February 10, 2011, 10:06:11 pm
When you have weapons like side sword or scimitar 1hers are NOT slow unless you have low agility.

Probably people in eu saw dimaurban playing he can spam (He does) with side sword even if you block he still swings very fast.

Also if shields were so underpowered why more then half of every team is filled with people with shields many of them using a huscarl?
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Noble Crassius on February 10, 2011, 10:11:49 pm
Simple answers please Gorath! I'm not the brightest light in the universe and posting conflicting answers will just confuse me  :oops:
So what I gathered from your answers correct me if I am wrong:

#1.  Meaning our attack speed and damage is not greatly lacking?
You showed instances where they are not lacking even with shield (the current topic please stay with it) in my limited knowledge I can't possible know what exactly you meant but if I can a paraphrase you and say that you meant, Yes our attack speed and damage is not greatly lacking in most cases ?

#2. Do you agree with my stance that for all practical purposes holding RMB makes...
What I meant by practical purposes is exactly that - from the front. No one can block behind them. So you agree with this point as well then?

Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Gorath on February 10, 2011, 10:14:56 pm
1her damage is poop? Yeah, sure.... 1h weapons 2hit me more than any other weapon type.
Yeah, 1her damage is the lowest of melee weapon types on average.  Math.

And actually, 60% of the people who voted think shields /aren't/ fine as is.

True, though the 2nd option (minor balancing) is pretty vague.  I myself voted for that option because I believe the speed rating of other shields should be buffed to give them a proper place in the inter-shield heirarchy.  There's no desire for a nerf in that vote, but at first glance it probably looks that way due to the ambiguous wording of that poll option.

When you have weapons like side sword or scimitar 1hers are NOT slow unless you have low agility.
Already mentioned that the only 1hers really being used are the insanely fast ones like the side sword.  The reason for this is that shields slow your 1hers down so much that any 1her with a high speed and decent damage is optimal.  Sadly it also means a large lack of variety on the field.

Also if shields were so underpowered why more then half of every team is filled with people with shields many of them using a huscarl?

How many projectiles are in the air nowadays?  Especially thrown ones?  Seems like there's more arrows, jarids, lances, daggers, darts, throwing axes in the air per square inch than o2 molecules.  Balb even mentioned once to me in a game about his shield "Cause I fucking hate ranged spam".  Most shielders I know play their shielder for this reason.  Hell even I swap to my neglected shielder after 3-4 rounds of excessive ranged shit and I get tired of it.

Also you have to factor in style points.  Some people just like the way sword and board looks.  If it wasn't so much easier to get higher kdr's with a 2her or polearm for the investment I'd much rather play sword n' board because I think it looks cool stylistically.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Xant on February 10, 2011, 10:16:38 pm
On average mayhaps, Gorath. But just about everyone uses the high tier ones which aren't lacking in damage at all, quite the contrary.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Noble Crassius on February 10, 2011, 10:22:26 pm

True, though the 2nd option (minor balancing) is pretty vague.  I myself voted for that option because I believe the speed rating of other shields should be buffed to give them a proper place in the inter-shield heirarchy.  There's no desire for a nerf in that vote, but at first glance it probably looks that way due to the ambiguous wording of that poll option.


Yes the middle option was for those thinking shields needed only a minor buff/nerf. (both ways, either way not my goal) the general thought behind the poll is do people want to shields fundamentally change? My vision is I would like to see a transformation from slow and turtle like to as close as we can get in this game to offensive weapons.

 Your "top tier" shields you referred to me are actually middle tier shields. They break quite easily and still slow you down quite a bit. these are fine imo. (maybe less encumbering and more speed would be nice.) However the Huscarl/Heavy round shield out preforms them in every way.

On an unrelated note would you please clarify your answer's to my questions?
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Gorath on February 10, 2011, 10:24:09 pm
Simple answers please Gorath!
Those were simple answers.  If you mean just straight yes or no's then I will oblige.
#1.  Meaning our attack speed and damage is not greatly lacking?
No.  I disagree.  Speed and damage overall are lacking compared to non-shielders.

#2. Do you agree with my stance that for all practical purposes holding RMB makes...
Yup.  It does.  It should.

On average mayhaps, Gorath. But just about everyone uses the high tier ones which aren't lacking in damage at all, quite the contrary.

Ok top tier damage comparison
Side sword: 
swing damage 32, cut
thrust damage 26 pierce

Flamberge:
swing damage 48, cut
thrust damage 24 pierce

Elegant Poleaxe:
swing damage 39, cut
thrust damage 26 pierce
bonus vs shields


1her damage is the lowest, which is what I said.  The pierce is decent on the 1her, I will give it that.

Your "top tier" shields you referred to me are actually middle tier shields. They break quite easily and still slow you down quite a bit. these are fine imo. (maybe less encumbering and more speed would be nice.)
Ok then, use the bucklers which are price-wise higher tier than the huscarl.  Faster, less encumbering, less durable, less protective.
However the Huscarl/Heavy round shield out preforms them in every way. Would you please clarify your answer's to me questions?
No, not every way.  They're both slower, and heavier.  The heavy round shield is even lower on the shield tier hierarchy than the shields I brought up.
(click to show/hide)
Compared side by side you would probably be better served by going for the heater shield.  More HP, faster, lighter, more durable overall.  Less coverage though.

 


Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Heroin on February 10, 2011, 10:29:39 pm
True, though the 2nd option (minor balancing) is pretty vague. There's no desire for a nerf in that vote, but at first glance it probably looks that way due to the ambiguous wording of that poll option.

I agree with this. Your poll doesn't fit properly into this thread and is misleading. I voted 2, because I feel lower tier shields should be buffed, but I don't feel like the huscarl needs a nerf.

In the future, if you make a poll to support your point, make it clear and concise, such as:

Do you feel like the huscarl shield should get a nerf?
a. Yes
b. No
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Xant on February 10, 2011, 10:35:25 pm
Ok top tier damage comparison
Side sword: 
swing damage 32, cut
thrust damage 26 pierce
Flamberge:
swing damage 48, cutthrust damage 24 pierce

Elegant Poleaxe:
swing damage 39, cut
thrust damage 26 piercebonus vs shields
1her damage is the lowest, which is what I said.  The pierce is decent on the 1her, I will give it that.

lol.

More like

Steel pick
swing damage 33, pierce

Side sword
swing damage 32, cut

Broad One Handed Battle Axe
swing damage 35, cut

Militar Cleaver
swing damage 35, cut

vs

German Greatsword
swing damage 38, cut
thrust damage 30 pierce

Katana
swing damage 35, cut
thrust damage 18 pierce

Longsword
swing damage 36, cut
thrust damage 25 pierce

Practice longsword
swing damage 18, blunt
thrust damage 14 blunt
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Noble Crassius on February 10, 2011, 10:38:34 pm
No.  I disagree.  Speed and damage overall are lacking compared to non-shielders.
Yup.  It does.  It should.
Your avoiding the essence of the questions Gorath! We are not comparing to non-shielders but instead trying to measure shielders as they are.

On #1 (we'll get to number 2 later)
 Here let me rephrase maybe the phrase "greatly lacking" is a tad bit vague.

#1. Is 1hs speed such as that we can not attack after being attacked? meaning are all 1handers due to die to spam? Or can we block and attack pretty much all the time?
All of these are essentially the same question so feel free to answer one meaning all.

#2. is the damage as such that upon landing a hit we 1hs have trouble killing all but the unarmored? or can we pretty effectively get kills? Voiding all situational events meaning if we hit enough (within reason) they will die?

Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Siiem on February 10, 2011, 10:39:52 pm
You compare swing damage of a 1h vs weapons that use boths hands... 32 cut damage is the same for a 2h as a 1h. Therefore all weapons that use both hands have higher ratings to compenate for a shield.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Noble Crassius on February 10, 2011, 10:42:34 pm
I agree with this. Your poll doesn't fit properly into this thread and is misleading. I voted 2, because I feel lower tier shields should be buffed, but I don't feel like the huscarl needs a nerf.

In the future, if you make a poll to support your point, make it clear and concise, such as:

Do you feel like the huscarl shield should get a nerf?
a. Yes
b. No
Read my post on this if you disagree after that then maybe I can edit it to your liking. 

To all those that are "comparing" these different weapon types and editing out the other balancing facors, those weapons aren't similar and aren't supposed to balance in specific relation to each other. So please stop distorting values and lets get back on topic. If gorath wants he can make a buff 1h damage/speed thread himself.

Gorath I hope you will still answer my questions, I want to have a intellectual dialogue and who knows maybe you'll change my mind or me yours  :D
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: zagibu on February 10, 2011, 10:44:07 pm
I'm also for a buff to some of the mid tier shields. There is currently a huge gap between a big bunch of mediocre shields and the huscarl shield. I say, buff plate covered round shield (up HP to 200), change heavy heater (HP 380, Req 4) and knightly heater (HP 320, Req 4).
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Gorath on February 10, 2011, 10:48:44 pm
Your avoiding the essence of the questions Gorath! We are not comparing to non-shielders but instead trying to measure shielders as they are. 
I'm not avoiding anything.  If you're not talking about shielders vs non-shielders then there is no issue whatsoever as shielders vs shielders are equal in all regards.  lol
 

#1. Is 1hs speed such as that we can not attack after being attacked? meaning are all 1handers due to die to spam? Or can we block and attack pretty much all the time?
All of these are essentially the same question so feel free to answer one meaning all.

#2. is the damage as such that upon landing a hit we 1hs have trouble killing all but the unarmored? or can we pretty effectively get kills? Voiding all situational events meaning if we hit enough (within reason) they will die?

The problem is that your questions are completely situational and apply to everything.  I can answer yes to both.  Given ideal circumstances absolutely 1hers can attack and block and attack and block.  Given enough hits (7 on guys in plate like goretooth, using overheads with my military cleaver) 1hers can kill anyone.

I can also say this about the club, torch, pitchfork and all wooden practice weapons as well.  Except for the dagger, since it has no block.

You have to make up your mind whether you're talking about an internal item balance, or whether you're talking about balance as it relates to the game as a whole (which is going to mean shielders vs non-shielders).

You compare swing damage of a 1h vs weapons that use boths hands... 32 cut damage is the same for a 2h as a 1h. Therefore all weapons that use both hands have higher ratings to compenate for a shield.
That's irrelevant to what I said.  I said 1hers have the lowest damage of melee weapons on average, which is true.  That's compared to 2hers and polearms.  This is important because part of the argument brought up was "Shields need a nerf, they're too durable and 1hers should be forced into manual blocking!".  Well if that's true then why would 1hers ever be used since they have the lowest damage and range?  The whole point, besides showing off, is to use a 1her and shield.  Removing the shield and saying 1hers should be forced to fight without one would mean 1hers themselves would need to be buffed quite a bit to make them more fairly balanced vs 2hers and polearms overall.

To all those that are "comparing" these different weapon types and editing out the other balancing facors, those weapons aren't similar and aren't supposed to balance in specific relation to each other. So please stop distorting values and lets get back on topic. If gorath wants he can make a buff 1h damage/speed thread himself. 
Same as above, this is a major factor of the topic.  Huscarl is the most attractive shield overall, yes.  However it's not because it needs a nerf, it's that other shields need a buff of some fashion in order to appeal to different combat styles/situations.  Ignoring 1her/shield relations and balance amongst and compared to 2hers and polearm users is ignoring a HUGE part of "class" balance and will only lead to overnerfing a playstyle that already fights to remain competetive.


Gorath I hope you will still answer my questions, I want to have a intellectual dialogue and who knows maybe you'll change my mind or me yours  :D

I have answered your questions like 3 times now.  Just because you either don't like, or don't understand the answers doesn't mean I haven't answered them.   :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: EponiCo on February 10, 2011, 10:57:25 pm
Some stats taken from out the game, not the site, seem to say that round shields are in fact larger on both width and height:

Elite Cav - size 66 (*66 I assume)
Knightly Heater - 44*62
Unless I'm missing something here the round one is simply superior, since all stats are equal (and price is lower). Except durability which would also work in favour of round presumably.

Round shield - 78
Heavy Kite - 44*72
If that continues - and unless the -3 speed on heavy round makes a significant difference - the rounds are plainly superior in all tiers. Large round also has a even higher tier (huscarl) and small round a cheaper tier (plain cav). So imo there has to be a rebalance inside shield class.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Gorath on February 10, 2011, 11:03:00 pm
Some stats taken from out the game, not the site, seem to say that round shields are in fact larger on both width and height:

Elite Cav - size 66 (*66 I assume)
Knightly Heater - 44*62
Unless I'm missing something here the round one is simply superior, since all stats are equal (and price is lower). Except durability which would also work in favour of round presumably.

Round shield - 78
Heavy Kite - 44*72
If that continues - and unless the -3 speed on heavy round makes a significant difference - the rounds are plainly superior in all tiers. Large round also has a even higher tier (huscarl) and small round a cheaper tier (plain cav). So imo there has to be a rebalance inside shield class.

Agreed.  This is what I've been talking about.  The other shields need something that makes them more attractive in some way.  Speed.  Armor perhaps for others (survives more hits from axes).  Something that gives em an area clearly superior to the huscarl and it's bretheren.  An HP/durability nerf is the wrong way to go about doing this rebalancing act imo.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Noble Crassius on February 10, 2011, 11:04:20 pm
I'm not avoiding anything.  If you're not talking about shielders vs non-shielders then there is no issue whatsoever as shielders vs shielders are equal in all regards.  lol
 Alright your not avoiding but a simple answer to my questions would be nice
The problem is that your questions are completely situational and apply to everything.  I can answer yes to both.  Given ideal circumstances absolutely 1hers can attack and block and attack and block.  Given enough hits (7 on guys in plate like goretooth, using overheads with my military cleaver) 1hers can kill anyone.
7 is not extravgant so I'll take this as yes to #2
I can also say this about the club, torch, pitchfork and all wooden practice weapons as well.  Except for the dagger, since it has no block.
within reason
You have to make up your mind whether you're talking about an internal item balance, or whether you're talking about balance as it relates to the game as a whole (which is going to mean shielders vs non-shielders).
 We are not comparing anything. We are not measuring shielders v shielders or shielders v PA or shielders v anything Just 1handers ability as is
Your going to need to work with me by keeping the answers simple!
So if I gathered correctly you agree that we can attack-block-attack, and that we can kill within reason, or am I wrong on this point?

Which if true means that ( waiting for a response is hardly an option)
My original question was
#1.  Meaning our attack speed and damage is not greatly lacking?
This answer would have to change to yes, since if we can attack-block-attack our speed must not be THAT bad and if we can kill within reason or dmage must not be THAT lacking either. or do you disagree?
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Noble Crassius on February 10, 2011, 11:13:40 pm
I have answered your questions like 3 times now.  Just because you either don't like, or don't understand the answers doesn't mean I haven't answered them.   :mrgreen:
The additional questions were quite needed, to clear up any misunderstanding we had. I hope you don't mind in the regard that its all in the quest for knowledge.

and additional question are going to be asked would you liek to continue answering them quite simply? or we can just end this discussion its all up to you Gorath.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Gorath on February 10, 2011, 11:28:42 pm
The additional questions were quite needed, to clear up any misunderstanding we had. I hope you don't mind in the regard that its all in the quest for knowledge.

and additional question are going to be asked would you liek to continue answering them quite simply? or we can just end this discussion its all up to you Gorath.

Nope, don't mind at all.  Fire away and I'll answer as simply as I can given I don't believe in such a thing as black and white answers without paying attention to all of the situation modifiers relevant to the question at hand.  Otherwise I'd end up giving such blanket statements as "Yes" to such things as "Do you endorse killing people and find it morally acceptable"   :wink:
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Diomedes on February 10, 2011, 11:38:44 pm
Noble Crassius your attempt to emulate Socratic elenchus fails.  Asking Gorath to answer questions "more simply" is essentially asking him to ignore subtlety.  Asking him questions while mildly stating "that its all in the quest for knowledge" is a half-truth.  You made this thread with a clearly stated intent:
 
Quote
I ... say NERF HUSCARL (and by effect the heavy round shield)!!!!
 


Stop pretending.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Rogue on February 10, 2011, 11:53:25 pm
Even before the patch the huscarl shield was the most common shield type. It's not only the durability of this shield, but also its size. When a 1h player with a huscarl gets ganged on by multiple enemies or is forced into a corner he enjoys vastly superior survivability compared to any other shield, because the huscarl basically protects your side as well. Making such a large, heavy and expensive shield less durable might not be the best solution though. I would prefer an improved (speed!) of some of the heater/kite shields. I use a knightly heater shield and although its way faster and lighter, it feels no different whenever I loot a huscarl from the ground. The main difference is that some people can 3shot my knightly heater.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Noble Crassius on February 11, 2011, 12:00:52 am
Nope, don't mind at all.  Fire away and I'll answer as simply as I can given I don't believe in such a thing as black and white answers without paying attention to all of the situation modifiers relevant to the question at hand.  Otherwise I'd end up giving such blanket statements as "Yes" to such things as "Do you endorse killing people and find it morally acceptable"   :wink:
And I thank you for it Gorath! You'll only have to endure a little longer as my line of questioning is short. Forgive the time on thsi responce as it has to be phrased just right to avoid the addition of more questions and therefore further subjecting you to this mindless dribble.

So to backtrack since we now agree with both of my original statements that #1. 1hs can sustain and prevail the flow of combat and #2. We have in most cases (voiding crush through) an ability that can sustain us from multiple attacks with one click

Can it also be agreed that
#3. Any class in any game that has high attack AND high defense with minor to no drawbacks is imbalanced? (I think we can but that doesn't relate to this discussion it's just a base question)
and the kicker
#4. The shielder now as the ability to attack effectively AND still keeps its perfect defense albiet with drawbacks (to be addressed)? (only thing that changed was the shield force-field which imo needs to be added back for most shields.)

Noble Crassius your attempt to emulate Socratic elenchus fails.  Asking Gorath to answer questions "more simply" is essentially asking him to ignore subtlety.  Asking him questions while mildly stating "that its all in the quest for knowledge" is a half-truth
Oh not at all! you see inside a wall of text is the ability to dilute your argument and fill it with half truths and exaggerations (even I am guilty of this) I simply want a simple answer to my simple questions instead of all these grand gestures that are only designed to convince a mass of mindless cohorts. We here are not mindless cohorts and after all, and what could be the harm in demanding simple yes or no answers?
Is it beyond you to think that maybe my opinions can change? I actually already stated that (read my posts) I'm not pretending squat  :D.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Heroin on February 11, 2011, 12:13:52 am
We here are not mindless cohorts

Speak for yourself. We are legion.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Gorath on February 11, 2011, 01:34:42 am
#3. Any class in any game that has high attack AND high defense with minor to no drawbacks is imbalanced? (I think we can but that doesn't relate to this discussion it's just a base question) 
Sure.
#4. The shielder now as the ability to attack effectively AND still keeps its perfect defense albiet with drawbacks
No.
I say this on the basic fundamental premise that the moment you attack your defense is shattered, which holds true for all weapon classes.
If you mean that it can trade off, then sure.

Stop here if you really can't stand anything but yes or no's:

Here's the rub though, because I believe I know where you're going with #3:  Shielders do not have a high attack.  In fact comparitively speaking, they have a low or baseline attack.  Also the level of their defense is in question given two factors:
1)  Shields break (granted some take a while, others not as much) while weapons and armor do not.  Good defense for a limited time vs standard defense all the time.
2)  Shields (other than specific uber large shields such as the dreaded Huscarl) do not grant immunity to ranged, only a solid defense against it.  This was a good change, one I supported forever and will support.  I now headshot or foot-kill many shielders (not using a huscarl) quite consistantly with my x-bow (previously throwing too before I dropped it for x-bow yet again on the last toon that used throwing).  The requirement for aiming a shield at the attack being recieved is also a welcome addition rather than forcefields as it adds back a level of skill in shield use that was lacking beforehand.

If I may pose my own question:  The biggest issue with round shields is that they are by and large the best choice for a shield in every area correct?  Speed, durability, coverage, etc.
If yes, then again I propose that the problem lies in other shields not having any noticable niche strength.  Board shields are great for coverage and durability, while being slower.  A real wall.  However stat wise there's not enough of a gap to really take a hold of that market.  Heater shields are faster and weaker, but not noticably faster to really make a noticable impact over a huscarl.  So really the issue is that with round shields being the baseline that every other shield is judged by, nothing else has any real noticable benefit in any given area to compete against the all around design (no pun intended).  Sure the numbers are there on the sheet:
(click to show/hide)
But the heavy board shield doesn't really feel any more impenetrable than the Husc, while it does feel rediculously slow so what's the point?  The heavy kite doesn't feel any lighter or faster, while it does feel less durable.  The knightly heater feels only marginally lighter/faster, but it does feel a whole hell of alot less durable and protective.  Buff these other designs in certain areas to really give them their own niche that's readily felt on the battlefield and leave the round shields as the jack of all trades shields imo.

*Logically round shields were superior designs in history as well.  A circle is just a very efficient shape in terms of coverage vs weight/size, manueverability/speed, etc.  Also it lends itself to a curved surface (spherical) readily enough to deflect blows.*

If you really want to get into shields being an "Ez mode" blocking system then by all means I'm willing to discuss ways to change it that will make it more skill-based, though in doing so the general power of shielders in melee combat is going to increase from a systems change to more acurately reflect the combat ability of sword and board combat.  Currently it's slow, clunky and lacks offensive the offensive tools it's capable of.  However to make it better would require some pretty sweeping changes to the combat system itself.  Currently we have an approximation of combat.

While it's not western (hard to find western vids that aren't 2h'd swords or fencing.... some cultural thing I suspect), and it's a choreographed martial arts kata it's still done at a good enough speed and precision to give a better feel for the fluid nature of sword n' board combat vs what we have in-game.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rMAOzOD6Js&feature=player_detailpage#t=36s
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: EponiCo on February 11, 2011, 02:02:58 am
Gorath, the thing is I'm not really feeling the speed difference between with knightly kite shield and without either.
Where does it happen? The only thing where I really felt slower is with fake feints (i.e. switching attack direction without actually swinging) but I may be imagining it. So making the noticeable faster may not even be an option, but the huscarl can be made slower.
In any case I think what the nonround shields need is a little more more width. But forcefield shouldn't return either.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Kalam on February 11, 2011, 02:22:51 am
As someone who switches between the huscarl and knightly heater fairly often, I do notice the difference. It's more of a contrast when you're in a strength build, though.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Gorath on February 11, 2011, 02:25:23 am
Gorath, the thing is I'm not really feeling the speed difference between with knightly kite shield and without either.
Where does it happen? The only thing where I really felt slower is with fake feints (i.e. switching attack direction without actually swinging) but I may be imagining it.
That's actually where shields make 1hers slower.  It's on the raising (or is it lowering?  One of those, I always forget which) of the shield, not in the actual attack animation.  So it affects your feinting and ability to counterattack / stop an attack to emergency block speeds.

So making the noticeable faster may not even be an option, but the huscarl can be made slower.
This is also a more balanced idea imo than reducing HP/durability.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Elmetiacos on February 11, 2011, 03:00:07 am
Yes. Every one handed fighter has a Huscarl at the moment, because they have no effective choice. Anything else just gets smashed to bits in a few blows. There's no reason not to get a Huscarl shield as soon as you can.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Furax on February 11, 2011, 03:07:14 am
Any weapon with "bonus against shields" will utterly destroy any shield in a few blows, had the plate covered round shield smashed to bits by one swing of a bardiche once.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: balbaroth on February 11, 2011, 03:18:44 am
in this era of CRPG "ithrowshitatyou" nerfing shields would be a terrible idea ,  i wished tho that they made a better balance of the shields without nerfing them... :(

                i use to like the fur covered shield lots of hp but width is so awful you get shot all the time

             
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Noble Crassius on February 11, 2011, 04:17:35 am
I'll keep my response short and simple as I am in a bad mood right now and am no longer in the mood for extended debate (I'm sorry I do dearly wish I could continue with this butchering of the Socratic method...)


If you mean that it can trade off, then sure.
Exactly what I meant and you know it.
Stop here if you really can't stand anything but yes or no's:
I prefer you to explain your answers don't get me wrong just a summary would do a speech is not necessary.
Here's the rub though, because I believe I know where you're going with #3:  Shielders do not have a high attack.  In fact comparitively speaking, they have a low or baseline attack.  Also the level of their defense is in question given two factors:
1)  Shields break (granted some take a while, others not as much) while weapons and armor do not.  Good defense for a limited time vs standard defense all the time.
2)  Shields (other than specific uber large shields such as the dreaded Huscarl) do not grant immunity to ranged, only a solid defense against it.  This was a good change, one I supported forever and will support.  I now headshot or foot-kill many shielders (not using a huscarl) quite consistantly with my x-bow (previously throwing too before I dropped it for x-bow yet again on the last toon that used throwing).  The requirement for aiming a shield at the attack being recieved is also a welcome addition rather than forcefields as it adds back a level of skill in shield use that was lacking beforehand.
#1 after their shield breaks the defense simply drops to on par with that of a 2h/pa its not an handicap that it breaks it SHOULD break and faster than it does!

If I may pose my own question:You may it's quite encouraged actually  The biggest issue with round shields is that they are by and large the best choice for a shield in every area correct?  Speed, durability, coverage, etc. No, my biggest issue is with high tier shields that are practically unbreakable unless you have an axe on you at the time. board and steel have MAJOR draw backs and maybe only a need a slight reduction but the huscarls weight nine is only slightly annoying. Which is why it overly used. But I have to say YES the round shield line is the best choice for shielders atm and shield variety needs to be introduced but our methods differ. I want to NERF the overly used shields and you want to BUFF other shields to its level.

edited out the fluff hope you don't mind

If you really want to get into shields being an "Ez mode" blocking system then by all means I'm willing to discuss ways to change it that will make it more skill-based, though in doing so the general power of shielders in melee combat is going to increase from a systems change to more acurately reflect the combat ability of sword and board combat.  Currently it's slow, clunky and lacks offensive the offensive tools it's capable of.  However to make it better would require some pretty sweeping changes to the combat system itself.  Currently we have an approximation of combat.
Tell me more you perked my interest. If you simply want to make it more realistic I have to say this probably won't happen unless chadz implements his thingymajig but then we'll have a whole new game and this discussion won't even matter.

If by chance I edited out/skipped something you specifically wanted me to address please bring it to my attention.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Noble Crassius on February 11, 2011, 04:20:28 am
in this era of CRPG "ithrowshitatyou" nerfing shields would be a terrible idea ,  i wished tho that they made a better balance of the shields without nerfing them... :(

                i use to like the fur covered shield lots of hp but width is so awful you get shot all the time

             

Bring  back the shield gens, or make all the shields (except huscarl) width a little bigger. I have a feeling the devs knew that once they edited these values that some re-editing would have to be done.

Any weapon with "bonus against shields" will utterly destroy any shield in a few blows, had the plate covered round shield smashed to bits by one swing of a bardiche once.
That shield has to be a joke it's the most pointless pos ever. and yes axes destroy shields its what they do.

That's actually where shields make 1hers slower.  It's on the raising (or is it lowering?  One of those, I always forget which) of the shield, not in the actual attack animation.  So it affects your feinting and ability to counterattack / stop an attack to emergency block speeds.
This is also a more balanced idea imo than reducing HP/durability.
You can't just buff shields across the board and be done with, to increase speed or to reduce weight were going to have to give on something. Making shields SLOWER is the opposite of what we should do! or it seems that people prefer turtles over warriors...humph well played crpg community you made a cynic more cynical today. Leave it to shielders to be the most conservative force out there. Turning a blind eye to the obvious fact that OUR ATTACK SPEEDS ARE ON PAR WITH EVERY OTHER CLASS AND OUR DEFENSE GREATER THAN ANY OTHER CLASS. The game trys to balance it out by making us slow as shit but I don't want to run slow as shit, or feint slow as shit. but if you turtles are happy with that meh keep your class. I wash my hands of calling you people brothers.

If only you people could move past the nerf aspect  :rolleyes: I tried working with you by suggesting lower encumbrance and raising speed (You all want it you said so) but apparently your nto willing to sacrifice HP for it? so it comes down to : most 1handers want a buff to their class  :rolleyes: whats new

   


Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Diomedes on February 11, 2011, 05:49:25 am
Turning a blind eye to the obvious fact that OUR ATTACK SPEEDS ARE ON PAR WITH EVERY OTHER CLASS AND OUR DEFENSE GREATER THAN ANY OTHER CLASS.

Shields:
+ make it easier to defend one's front
+ stop arrows, throwing weapons, and most bolts coming from certain directions
+ a sense of confidence
- require shield skill points
- cost money
- are heavy
- break, making them useful for a limited time in each battle
-- a breaking shield can momentarily stun the one holding it
-- once the shield is broken, the player is most often left with a one-handed weapon - a relative handicap in most hand-to-hand situations
- limit the player to only attacking with one handed weapons, stabbing spears, and throwing weapons
-- one handed weapons are shorter, do less damage, and are often slower than their statistical attack speed because of the shield

They're not overpowered or underpowered.  They're just a reliable choice for any player who wants to invest in their benefits, that's all.  I originally switched to a sword and board because I got sick of Kesh turning me into a pin cushion pre-patch.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Gorath on February 11, 2011, 06:59:22 am
#1 after their shield breaks the defense simply drops to on par with that of a 2h/pa its not an handicap that it breaks it SHOULD break and faster than it does!
It absolutely is a handicap.  Once it's broken and the 1her is manual blocking without a shield he is disadvantaged vs 2hers and polearms in range, damage and unless using a very select few swords even speed (especially when factoring in weapon stun from weight differences).

Making shields SLOWER is the opposite of what we should do! or it seems that people prefer turtles over warriors...humph well played crpg community you made a cynic more cynical today. Leave it to shielders to be the most conservative force out there. Turning a blind eye to the obvious fact that OUR ATTACK SPEEDS ARE ON PAR WITH EVERY OTHER CLASS AND OUR DEFENSE GREATER THAN ANY OTHER CLASS. The game trys to balance it out by making us slow as shit but I don't want to run slow as shit, or feint slow as shit. but if you turtles are happy with that meh keep your class. I wash my hands of calling you people brothers.
You're calling for a nerf of the huscarl shield, and the round shield line in general.  We are saying that we think an HP nerf is the wrong way to go about it and that we would rather the speed of those shields be nerfed IF ANYTHING.  Most of us don't think they need a nerf at all.  You say you don't want to run slow as shit, or feint slow as shit, and I STILL say:  Use a different shield.  There are faster shields in the line.  The problem is that they don't feel noticably faster which is where the problem lies.  So I say improve the speed of the other shields (kite, heaters).  This gives a more noticable effect of using those shields opposed to the de-facto huscarl (or other round shields).  Hell, use the elite cav shield.  It's got decent durability and it's 100 speed with less weight.  You won't run as slow, and you won't feint as slow (supposedly, this is where the feel of the shield belies it's stats as it doesn't feel much faster than the huscarl at all imo).

Point is, don't like the weight and shit of the huscarl?  Use a different shield.  The brown heater shield I posted has 410 HP and 96 speed (I think).  It weighs less and has very good HP.  Use that one.

If only you people could move past the nerf aspect  :rolleyes: I tried working with you by suggesting lower encumbrance and raising speed (You all want it you said so) but apparently your nto willing to sacrifice HP for it? so it comes down to : most 1handers want a buff to their class  :rolleyes: whats new
You're suggesting a nerf to a weapon class that doesn't really need one.  You're also refusing to use anything but the round shields or huscarl by saying the other shields suck in comparison.  Given that opinion, which most of us share, I/we suggest buffing the other shields in some area to give a better choice of shields based upon what you want in your shield.  The huscarl is a turtle shield (or it's supposed to be), that's it's function and design.  A fighting shield should be one of the smaller heater shields or kite shields.  So make those more attractive for that role than they are.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Xant on February 11, 2011, 08:23:51 am
Buffing other shields would serve no purpose but to make 1h more OP. Currently they're tanks (mediocre players can keep even the best players busy for a loooooooong time and have a chance of killing them too), damage dealers, and speedmachines. They're a master-of-all-trades class right now. Even if their shield is destroyed, you're at no disadvantage compared to a 2her if you have a decent 1h weapon, like long Espada Eslavona. People who would otherwise be mediocre at best can top the scoreboards with awesome KDRs if they just equip some heavy armor and a decent 1her.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: kura on February 11, 2011, 08:32:04 am
I hate invisible wall from legs to head,another ok.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: bruce on February 11, 2011, 08:38:25 am
People who would otherwise be mediocre at best can top the scoreboards with awesome KDRs if they just equip some heavy armor and a decent 1her.

Such BS, it's five time easier to do with a polearm then 1h+shield.

Anyway. What's your problem with seeing more different shields on the field so it doesn't look like huscarl huscarl huscarl huscarl knightly heather huscarl huscarl huscarl?
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Xant on February 11, 2011, 08:39:42 am
Such BS, it's five time easier to do with a polearm then 1h+shield.

Anyway. What's your problem with seeing more different shields on the field so it doesn't look like huscarl huscarl huscarl huscarl knightly heather huscarl huscarl huscarl?

How is it easier? How /can/ it be easier? Answer: It isn't, and it can't be, you don't have RMB of invincibility.

And I don't have a problem with that. Just nerf huscarl instead of buffing other shields.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Vicious666 on February 11, 2011, 08:44:09 am
this 3d is the most idiotic things i ever saw in my life

basicly  you wanna nerf  the only things that give  a + to be 1 hander, a shield



1hander  plus:
survivability thx to  shield defence vs cut user/arro/ throw   (even if a bardiche x3 loomed destroy a huscarl in 3-4 hit, and 2 throwing lance destroy even a steel shield )
ability to fight multiple opponents,   with less skill than a 2hander      (no need to manual block different attacks from different direction)

so we have +2 good things vs  8 negative


1hander negative:

speed/movement   even at same atheletics thx to shield we move slower.
reach        top reach 105, vs what  155 2h, and what 190+  pole?
dmg         top dmg probably is a broadaxe 3x loomed,  40 dmg,    vs what ,  50? 55? 60 ?
animation issue    (a fucking 85 2h speed is faster than a 100 1h speed+shield  )
invisibile reach (yes  xant we not have 140  reach like your german/danish sword  lolstab abuse )   
no furter bonus from our skill   = like pole who stun  with everything   
less wpf  cause by more weight
upkeep   (our upkeep 1h+shield is 60-70% more than   2hander/pole upkeep,          example?  eslavona+huscarl is 17k,     danish sword? 11-12k )






a mediocre 1h die to  first 2hander who  oneshoot him /feints.
on other side even a mediocre 2hander who spam, can kill  good player,    cause reach+speed+dmg+animation+movement +invisibile reach advantage
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Xant on February 11, 2011, 08:47:52 am
Lol vicious. Does everyone play with the top reach weapons? Have you actually tried to play with Flamberge? Reach isn't an issue, even WITHOUT a shield. You can block once and then facehug. With a shield, you don't even need to block correctly.

And damage, again, does everyone use a flamberge? No.

Animation issue? You don't know what you're talking about, frankly. 1h has superior animations, both because they are harder to read and because they hit faster.

German greatsword has 123 reach, not 140. Curved weapons have phantom reach.

And no, you're not a good player if you die to a mediocre 2h, because he has to block manually and due to him being mediocre, he's not very good at that.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Vicious666 on February 11, 2011, 08:52:33 am
Lol vicious. Does everyone play with the top reach weapons? Have you actually tried to play with Flamberge? Reach isn't an issue, even WITHOUT a shield. You can block once and then facehug. With a shield, you don't even need to block correctly.

And damage, again, does everyone use a flamberge? No.

Animation issue? You don't know what you're talking about, frankly. 1h has superior animations, both because they are harder to read and because they hit faster.

German greatsword has 123 reach, not 140. Curved weapons have phantom reach.

And no, you're not a good player if you die to a mediocre 2h, because he has to block manually and due to him being mediocre, he's not very good at that.


i not die vs a mediocre spammer,     it takes me anyway more skill than him to kill him, becouse i need to aim perfectly on his dead moments, while he only do click click click click click click.

a mediocr 1hander on other side, have no chance vs a mediocre   2hander cause all this advantage i already mentioned.


and you are wrong about animations. everybody know 2h-pole have better animation than 1h, dont be ridiculous   you have 140 reach with your stupid lolstab and expecial you XANT you abuse it a lot.         at levels that majority of ppl i see approch you wait you on  low guard


another things to add on negative for 1handeR?  upkeep, yes my upkeep on weapon is 60-70% more than your since our top 1h cost 9k, and your top cost 11-12k.   but we have also shield for another 6-10k
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Xant on February 11, 2011, 08:55:15 am

i not die vs a mediocre spammer,     it takes me anyway more skill than him to kill him, becouse i need to aim perfectly on his dead moments, while he only do click click click click click click.

a mediocr 1hander on other side, have no chance vs a mediocre   2hander cause all this advantage i already mentioned.


and you are wrong about animations. everybody know 2h-pole have better animation than 1h, dont be ridiculous   you have 140 reach with your stupid lolstab and expecial you XANT you abuse it a lot.         at levels that majority of ppl i see approch you wait you on  low guard

Dunno about you, but on my shielder at level 15 I couldn't get spammed by 2hers. You just need to use footwork to counter spamming and then suddenly, voila, they can't spam anymore.

All the advantages you mentioned but which aren't true.

The only animation that 2h swords have that's superior to 1h is the stab, and even that was nerfed by the devs. You got any proof to show that the 2h stab has 140 reach?

Upkeep doesn't matter, making gold is too easy.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: MrExxc on February 11, 2011, 09:00:21 am
Shields:
+ make it easier to defend one's front
+ stop arrows, throwing weapons, and most bolts coming from certain directions
+ a sense of confidence
- require shield skill points
- cost money
- are heavy
- break, making them useful for a limited time in each battle
-- a breaking shield can momentarily stun the one holding it
-- once the shield is broken, the player is most often left with a one-handed weapon - a relative handicap in most hand-to-hand situations
- limit the player to only attacking with one handed weapons, stabbing spears, and throwing weapons
-- one handed weapons are shorter, do less damage, and are often slower than their statistical attack speed because of the shield

They're not overpowered or underpowered.  They're just a reliable choice for any player who wants to invest in their benefits, that's all.  I originally switched to a sword and board because I got sick of Kesh turning me into a pin cushion pre-patch.

+1 Maybe nerf the huscarl a liiiiiiiiiiittle bit, but overal it's one of the most balanced classes. Nerf PA i'd say!!
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Vicious666 on February 11, 2011, 09:10:52 am
Dunno about you, but on my shielder at level 15 I couldn't get spammed by 2hers. You just need to use footwork to counter spamming and then suddenly, voila, they can't spam anymore.

All the advantages you mentioned but which aren't true.

The only animation that 2h swords have that's superior to 1h is the stab, and even that was nerfed by the devs. You got any proof to show that the 2h stab has 140 reach?

Upkeep doesn't matter, making gold is too easy.

LEVEL 15 AND YOU TALK°?

cmon be realistic
make a 31+ than talk , at lev 15 you have what  9 dex?    12 stR?


and is impossible to outmnanouver a 2hander,  becouse shield make you slower, and he have more reach, i am talking at same level of ability not a retard vs a good player.       

you are faster by default, you have more reach by default, if a 1hander  outmanouver you and exit from your spam, you have to change game.    (and by you i not mean you xant but the 2hander guy in the example)


and yes i proofed the lolstab with a friend on duel server

we have taken a 140 long weapon stepped away at his reach limit
than a german lolstab sword,   who in theory have 125, where able to ding my shield at same distance of the pole 140 reach , so lolstab gain a good +15 cm 
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Xant on February 11, 2011, 09:14:16 am
LEVEL 15 AND YOU TALK°?

cmon be realistic
make a 31+ than talk , at lev 15 you have what  9 dex?    12 stR?


and yes i proofed the lolstab with a friend on duel server

we have taken a 140 long weapon stepped away at his reach limit
than a german lolstab sword,   who in theory have 125, where able to ding my shield at same distance of the pole 140 reach , so lolstab gain a good +15 cm

... Dude, that's the whole point. If I can't be spammed even at level 15, how could I be spammed at level 31?  :?
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Vicious666 on February 11, 2011, 09:18:13 am
... Dude, that's the whole point. If I can't be spammed even at level 15, how could I be spammed at level 31?  :?

xant you in my clan

but dont lie, i play 1h since we where  30 in this fucking mod.

and mathematics is not opinion

a 1 hander 18 str 18 agi with 6 athletics and a huscarl      with 81 speed, cant outmanouver and exit from a spam vs a 18 18 lev 31 2 hander with same athletics     and no speed malus.

IS MATHEMATIC.     

if happens is becouse

a ) one of the 2 player is clearly    more skilled
2) a jump or a ground that is not plain that can make someone gain more distance by  climbing or descending .





withouth consider agistackabuser+polearms,       that not only are faster than any 1hander possible+more reach + more dmg, but also STUN


i am pointing here evidence with mathematics and proofed things, not  my personal opinion.  discussion over
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Xant on February 11, 2011, 09:20:04 am
xant you in my clan

but dont lie, i play 1h since we where  30 in this fucking mod.

and mathematics is not opinion

a 1 hander 18 str 18 agi with 6 athletics and a huscarl      with 81 speed, cant outmanouver and exit from a spam vs a 18 18 lev 31 2 hander with same athletics     and no speed malus.

IS MATHEMATIC.     

if happens is becouse

a ) one of the 2 player is clearly    more skilled
2) a jump or a ground that is not plain that can make someone gain more distance by  climbing or descending .

Vicious, saying it's mathematic does not prove it. And it's false, doesn't matter how high your opponent's agi is, if you have 18 agi yourself, you can't be spammed.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Vicious666 on February 11, 2011, 09:23:13 am
Vicious, saying it's mathematic does not prove it. And it's false, doesn't matter how high your opponent's agi is, if you have 18 agi yourself, you can't be spammed.


dont reverse the discussion from another point.,


i can break the enemy spam even with a 50 speed weapon becouse there is always    dead timing.

i cant block him from spam me, becouse  i cant avoid     him spamming me, becouse i cant disengage cause he is faster and if he chose to stick to me,     i cant do shit about,      where you or a pole, if find that 1hander is to  difficoult to kill, you can go away,     or play all by  abuse of lostab+footwork.     

1hander will never ever have   the advantage to chose to disengage,   unless is a fucking moron  30 agi 9 str, with 10 athletics and 50 hp who you one shoot at his first error, while he need 5-6 hit with powerstrike 3 for kll you








ps: mathematics proof everything,         is a fact, not opinable
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: YourLord on February 11, 2011, 09:26:25 am
Just buff other shields to decent state and introduce manual block for shields, block the wrong way and you receive 25% more damage on your shield.
Then we can stop calling shield users noobs...
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Xant on February 11, 2011, 09:27:11 am

dont reverse the discussion from another point.,


i can break the enemy spam even with a 50 speed weapon becouse there is always    dead timing.

i cant block him from spam me, becouse  i cant avoid     him spamming me, becouse i cant disengage cause he is faster and if he chose to stick to me,     i cant do shit about,      where you or a pole, if find that 1hander is to  difficoult to kill, you can go away,     or play all by  abuse of lostab+footwork.     

1hander will never ever have   the advantage to chose to disengage,   unless is a fucking moron  30 agi 9 str, with 10 athletics and 50 hp who you one shoot at his first error, while he need 5-6 hit with powerstrike 3 for kll you

Wut? I'm only replying to you, how is that "reversing" the discussion?

You can, you know, kill the spammer instead of running away. Or if you feel so inclined, drop your shield to run away faster.

Why would you need to disengage?

YourLord, that's actually a good suggestion. Wrong block direction, more damage to shields. Still easier and your shield won't break immediately, but it's not AS easy.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: bruce on February 11, 2011, 09:28:36 am
How is it easier? How /can/ it be easier? Answer: It isn't, and it can't be, you don't have RMB of invincibility.

Meh, I don't know, I'm an average blocker and I do much better with 2h/polearms then a 1h. It's just easier/less annoying to fight (sure, harder to block but whatever, holding RMB isn't what kills people), with a 1h the average spammer vulgaris can sometimes kill me, witha  polearm he's dead in one hit if he doesn't care about blocking.

I just find it easier personally, maybe I don't get how to properly fight with a 1h.



Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Vicious666 on February 11, 2011, 09:29:40 am
Wut? I'm only replying to you, how is that "reversing" the discussion?

You can, you know, kill the spammer instead of running away. Or if you feel so inclined, drop your shield to run away faster.

Why would you need to disengage?

YourLord, that's actually a good suggestion. Wrong block direction, more damage to shields. Still easier and your shield won't break immediately, but it's not AS easy.

you sound retarted you now?

i can say same to you if you have so much problem vs shield BUY A HAMMER. or drop your weapon and fly away. 


sure so add also to shielder manual block,      but give us your same dmg speed animation and reach,      becouse block with a weapon or a shield manually what difference make? except that shield broke and your weapon not?


listen yourself
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Xant on February 11, 2011, 09:31:56 am
you sound retarted you now?

i can say same to you if you have so much problem vs shield BUY A HAMMER. or drop your weapon and fly away. 


sure so add also to shielder manual block,      but give us your same dmg speed animation and reach,      becouse block with a weapon or a shield manually what difference make? except that shield broke and your weapon not?


listen yourself

Being able to spell "retarded" correctly would sure help your case of accusing other people of sounding.. "retarted"

What, buy a hammer? How is that similar in any way?

You should try learning manual blocking Vicious, it can actually be quite fun! And the suggestion is just 25% more damage to your shield, not that you get hit like you would if you failed a block otherwise.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Vicious666 on February 11, 2011, 09:33:15 am
Meh, I don't know, I'm an average blocker and I do much better with 2h/polearms then a 1h. It's just easier/less annoying to fight (sure, harder to block but whatever, holding RMB isn't what kills people), with a 1h the average spammer vulgaris can sometimes kill me, witha  polearm he's dead in one hit if he doesn't care about blocking.

I just find it easier personally, maybe I don't get how to properly fight with a 1h.

of course you do,       cause all advantage i mentioned

average player with 2h > average 1hander,       period , thats why  top 1hander in this fucking mod are all same 5 guy,  where 2hander/pole  top player are 9904564645967457609457.

i not one shoot xant so when we play and i do

30:5
and you do 30:5

i landed from 3x to 4x more hits than you., a 1hander for be step to step  to a 2hander on term to kills need to    play  like a guy under cocaine.   
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Vicious666 on February 11, 2011, 09:34:19 am
Being able to spell "retarded" correctly would sure help your case of accusing other people of sounding.. "retarted"

What, buy a hammer? How is that similar in any way?

You should try learning manual blocking Vicious, it can actually be quite fun! And the suggestion is just 25% more damage to your shield, not that you get hit like you would if you failed a block otherwise.


an axe one shoot      some shield.   3-4 shoot a huscarl

so how much faster you wanna destroy it?        one shoot + dmg on the guy  behind?       


you already have sooo much advantage,   with 2h (thats why you play 2h )       that whine about 1hander,  is fucking ridiculous, nominate now here,   10 1hander that do  5:1 k/d ratio.         i am sure if i wait until tomorrow you not get more than 5 names. while if you reverse same request on me,        from now to tomorrow i probably not end to write the list
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Xant on February 11, 2011, 09:34:58 am
of course you do,       cause all advantage i mentioned

average player with 2h > average 1hander,       period , thats why  top 1hander in this fucking mod are all same 5 guy,  where 2hander/pole  top player are 9904564645967457609457.

i not one shoot xant so when we play and i do

30:5
and you do 30:5

i landed from 3x to 4x more hits than you., a 1hander for be step to step  to a 2hander on term to kills need to    play  like a guy under cocaine.   

Except I don't 1 hit anyone, 3 hits is the norm. And you don't need to do the hardest and best part of the game, manual block.


an axe one shoot      some shield.   3-4 shoot a huscarl

so how much faster you wanna destroy it?        one shoot + dmg on the guy  behind?       

Or you could just block the axe hits correctly?
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Helbrass on February 11, 2011, 09:36:27 am
Their durability isn't what bothers me, it's the fact that someone with a huscarl round shield can be facing almost entirely in other direction and still block hits with it.

Can't count how many times I've died after swinging at a huscarl shield user's back and having the hit deflect.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Vicious666 on February 11, 2011, 09:36:42 am
Except I don't 1 hit anyone, 3 hits is the norm. And you don't need to do the hardest and best part of the game, manual block.

Or you could just block the axe hits correctly?

and get stunned and kille by one shoot on  next swing cause his 50+ dmg?
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Vicious666 on February 11, 2011, 09:38:07 am
Their durability isn't what bothers me, it's the fact that someone with a huscarl round shield can be facing almost entirely in other direction and still block hits with it.

Can't count how many times I've died after swinging at a huscarl shield user's back and having the hit deflect.

becouse you not know how to outmanouver him, i kill  shitload of 1hander+huscarl just being barely on theyr flank.             huscarl already got a big nerf     on his  "wall"  ., and from back, is a total lie

and i am not a huscarl user        just for say  at difference of xant,      that i not  bring water at myself
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Xant on February 11, 2011, 09:38:58 am
and get stunned and kille by one shoot on  next swing cause his 50+ dmg?

Then learn to play?
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Vicious666 on February 11, 2011, 09:42:21 am
Then learn to play?

if you have to whine vs  1hander user    with all your advantage probably its you that need to learn to play


at difference of you i bring mathematics that  is not an opinion.
at difference of you      i not  whiteknight my class,   as uberskilled,
at difference of you i am objective, becouse      you wanna remove onyl advantage of shielder when you have 4038608340 advantage, and this is patethic.
at difference of you i am not a huscarl user,      so i am not defending my style of play
at difference of you, i can recon something OP,   like your abused  lolstab xant,      or like    steel pick  1hander user,  (i tryed one yesterday 3x loomed and one shoot ppl or double shoot ppl even in plate with a 1hand weapon 102 speed  39 pierce dmg is RETARDED )

like is retarded hear   str abuser+triple loomed baremace say that      oneshoot ppl true a plate+shield, is skill.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Xant on February 11, 2011, 09:44:02 am
if you have to whine vs  1hander user    with all your advantage probably its you that need to learn to play

Make a 2her, I'll duel you with my 1her. :)

Or make any class at all, I'll duel you and show you how it's done.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Christo on February 11, 2011, 09:46:31 am
if you have to whine vs  1hander user    with all your advantage probably its you that need to learn to play

Dude. If you meet two Side-sword spammers with huscarl shields, you can't do anything. Even against one, if you miss a block, a hit can take about 90%!! health instantly. That's a bit absurd man.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Xant on February 11, 2011, 09:48:21 am
if you have to whine vs  1hander user    with all your advantage probably its you that need to learn to play


at difference of you i bring mathematics that  is not an opinion.
at difference of you      i not  whiteknight my class,   as uberskilled,
at difference of you i am objective, becouse      you wanna remove onyl advantage of shielder when you have 4038608340 advantage, and this is patethic.
at difference of you i am not a huscarl user,      so i am not defending my style of play
at difference of you, i can recon sometim OP,   like your abused  lolstab xant,      or like    steel pick  1hander user,  (i tryed one yesterday and one shoot ppl or double shoot ppl with a 1hand weapon 102 speed is RETARDED )

like is retarded hear   str abuser+triple loomed baremace say that      oneshoot ppl true a plate+shield, is skill.

You didn't bring any mathematics, foo'  :lol:

All you did was invoke the holy name of mathematics, which doesn't automatically make the Great Mathematics god side with you, unfortunately.

You are objective because you are a shielder arguing for shields not to be nerfed?  :D

Lolstab is OP? Try it yourself.  :)
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Vicious666 on February 11, 2011, 09:50:28 am
Make a 2her, I'll duel you with my 1her. :)

Or make any class at all, I'll duel you and show you how it's done.

sure  i make a str abuser 110 hp, with a 3x loomed baremace so you need from 5 to 8 hits for kill me while i need only 1 single crush on you, and you die instakilled
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Xant on February 11, 2011, 09:50:56 am
sure  i make a str abuser 110 hp, with a 3x loomed baremace so you need from 5 to 8 hits for kill me while i need only 1 single crush on you, and you die instakilled

Deal. Go ahead, you'll still lose.

Also, I find it amusing you go for the no-skill option when I offer to duel any class. Well, not surprising.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Vicious666 on February 11, 2011, 09:51:35 am
You didn't bring any mathematics, foo'  :lol:

All you did was invoke the holy name of mathematics, which doesn't automatically make the Great Mathematics god side with you, unfortunately.

You are objective because you are a shielder arguing for shields not to be nerfed?  :D

Lolstab is OP? Try it yourself.  :)

if you cant make 1+1 you have issue


105 reach at my home is inferior to  125-155
40 dmg is inferior to your avarage  45-50 +

and i continue like that on every other things i mentioned, dont     embarass yourself


ps: about new pole animation now you feint  like you have 200 wpf even when you have 0.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Xant on February 11, 2011, 09:52:51 am
if you cant make 1+1 you have issue


105 reach at my home is inferior to  125-155
40 dmg is inferior to your avarage  45-50 +

and i continue like that on every other things i mentioned, dont     embarass yourself

Mention weapon names. How often they're used. What disadvantages they have.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Vicious666 on February 11, 2011, 09:57:17 am
Mention weapon names. How often they're used. What disadvantages they have.

most used 1h

100-105 reach      nordic-knight-eslavona   30-36 dmg   upkeep 9-10k  + shield another 6-10k

most used 2h.   

124-125  reach.  +15 on lolstab     danish/german      40-43 dmg.     upkeep 11-12k               

except advantage to use a shield     1hander  have no advantage in term of speed, reach dmg, cost  of 2handers, wpf, and manouvrability, and upkeep



you are whining against the obvious,     shielder = harder to kill = more survivability, if you remove that  the class have no sense to exist.

you sacrifice sourvivability, for more reach dmg, lolstab,  animations,  less upkeep,  more wpf, and manouvrability
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Vicious666 on February 11, 2011, 09:58:58 am
Dude. If you meet two Side-sword spammers with huscarl shields, you can't do anything. Even against one, if you miss a block, a hit can take about 90%!! health instantly. That's a bit absurd man.

i get one shooted by ppl with phantom stab from 140 cm,  i not cry on forum about that,     or i get one shooted thrue my shield+ plate by a triple baremace strbauser     

while you need  not 1  but 2 player   for complains.

what i am supposed to say/whine vs 2 baremace strabuser vs me?
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Xant on February 11, 2011, 10:01:08 am
most used 1h

100-105 reach      nordic-knight-eslavona   30-36 dmg   upkeep 9-10k  + shield another 6-10k

most used 2h.   

124-125  reach.  +15 on lolstab     danish/german      40-43 dmg.     upkeep 11-12k               

except advantage to use a shield     1hander  have no advantage in term of speed, reach dmg, cost  of 2handers

And speed is a huge factor. And 1h gets a lot better animations. But yes, obviously, 2h looks more appealing based on just the stats. But just by a bit, and when added together with animations, they're pretty equal, even if the 1her isn't using a shield.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Vicious666 on February 11, 2011, 10:01:57 am
And speed is a huge factor. And 1h gets a lot better animations.

nope.

is since beta that  chadz talk about better 2h animation. who you try to fool here?

chadz not vicious or xant, chadz,  and  even that they are hardcoded,    if you where here like i was since a year ago,    you know that story, since is already being discusses and blamed by all 1hander-archer-pole,     for at list 7 months
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Xant on February 11, 2011, 10:03:01 am
nope.

is since beta that  chadz talk about better 2h animation. who you try to fool here?

Well, I wouldn't expect you to know what you're talking about... you can't duel, after all.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Vicious666 on February 11, 2011, 10:03:54 am
Well, I wouldn't expect you to know what you're talking about... you can't duel, after all.

you where dieng vs me when i was level 22.       with 0 athletics,    4 powestrike,            and i not have your lolstab 140 cm and at difference of you i not joined merc by suckcoking someone :)
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Xant on February 11, 2011, 10:06:03 am
you where dieng vs me when i was level 22.       with 0 athletics,    4 powestrike,            and i not have your lolstab 140 cm and at difference of you i not joined merc by suckcoking someone :)

Lulz, sure I were. Pics or it didn't happen.

Also, try coming up with your own insults, stealing Jambi's isn't very polite.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Vicious666 on February 11, 2011, 10:07:13 am
Lulz, sure I were. Pics or it didn't happen.

Also, try coming up with your own insults, stealing Jambi's isn't very polite.

why? becouse is true.

have a nice day,   i have done with you
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Xant on February 11, 2011, 10:08:17 am
why? becouse is true.

have a nice day,   i have done with you

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: bruce on February 11, 2011, 10:16:56 am
I thought this thread was about how shitty all the non-round shields are, and not bickering how 1h+shield is OP and needs a nerf (which isn't true really) to one of the few non-worthless shields.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Camaris on February 11, 2011, 11:44:07 am
Like i said:
Huscarl is the best shield it should cost the most and require most shieldskill.
U dont have to nerf the shields but you should restore the order of price and skill within them.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Akincibegi on February 11, 2011, 12:19:00 pm
this 3d is the most idiotic things i ever saw in my life

basicly  you wanna nerf  the only things that give  a + to be 1 hander, a shield



1hander  plus:
survivability thx to  shield defence vs cut user/arro/ throw   (even if a bardiche x3 loomed destroy a huscarl in 3-4 hit, and 2 throwing lance destroy even a steel shield )
ability to fight multiple opponents,   with less skill than a 2hander      (no need to manual block different attacks from different direction)

so we have +2 good things vs  8 negative


1hander negative:

speed/movement   even at same atheletics thx to shield we move slower.
reach        top reach 105, vs what  155 2h, and what 190+  pole?
dmg         top dmg probably is a broadaxe 3x loomed,  40 dmg,    vs what ,  50? 55? 60 ?
animation issue    (a fucking 85 2h speed is faster than a 100 1h speed+shield  )
invisibile reach (yes  xant we not have 140  reach like your german/danish sword  lolstab abuse )   
no furter bonus from our skill   = like pole who stun  with everything   
less wpf  cause by more weight
upkeep   (our upkeep 1h+shield is 60-70% more than   2hander/pole upkeep,          example?  eslavona+huscarl is 17k,     danish sword? 11-12k )






a mediocre 1h die to  first 2hander who  oneshoot him /feints.
on other side even a mediocre 2hander who spam, can kill  good player,    cause reach+speed+dmg+animation+movement +invisibile reach advantage

+1
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Christo on February 11, 2011, 02:01:17 pm
I wouldn't say nerf them, I think a rebalance of ALL SHIELDS would be the best solution, so other shields would be a good choice to get, not just the current popular ones.

*Nerf 1h speed a bit though, some weapons are ridiculously fast, even with a shield, and if I manage to break it, good lord. A sidesword becomes an 1h katana, with uber damage.*
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Dunecat on February 11, 2011, 03:01:18 pm
I happen to agree with both posts above.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Elmetiacos on February 11, 2011, 03:27:42 pm
Everyone who wants to seriously fight with sword (or any other 1h) and shield must go for the Huscarl shield or they get their shield smashed. There it is. This problem has got worse lately as there are more axes about than there used to be before the patch. With, for instance, an elite cavalry shield I (BadbCatha) have to run away if I see someone with a two handed axe, because it'll be bash, bash, and I have no shield. With no shield, I have a shorter weapon which does less damage and am most certainly at a big disadvantage, not to mention the fact that smashing a shield will itself cause stun. My only option, even though I don't really like it, is to use a Huscarl. The non-round shields not only tend to break easily, but they also have worse coverage against missiles - multiply height and width to see this is demonstrably true. Even the Heavy Board Shield, which should be the ultimate anti-arrow wall, has a total area of 1680,  slightly less than the Huscarl's 1849.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Spawny on February 11, 2011, 05:12:34 pm
*Nerf 1h speed a bit though, some weapons are ridiculously fast, even with a shield, and if I manage to break it, good lord. A sidesword becomes an 1h katana, with uber damage.*

Only when heirloomed 3x.

I just tried it last night and I actually did a lot better without a shield than with one on my 1h/shielder. I got a 2:1 k/d ratio without a shield and with a shield it was slightly less. I must confess I didn't play my 1h for some time, so my shieldfighting got a bit rusty. BUT, the speeddifference of my feints and my attack/blockspeed are so much faster without a shield I only bring the thing to close in on the frontline.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Vygar on February 11, 2011, 05:55:37 pm
Everyone who wants to seriously fight with sword (or any other 1h) and shield must go for the Huscarl shield or they get their shield smashed. There it is. This problem has got worse lately as there are more axes about than there used to be before the patch. With, for instance, an elite cavalry shield I (BadbCatha) have to run away if I see someone with a two handed axe, because it'll be bash, bash, and I have no shield. With no shield, I have a shorter weapon which does less damage and am most certainly at a big disadvantage, not to mention the fact that smashing a shield will itself cause stun. My only option, even though I don't really like it, is to use a Huscarl. The non-round shields not only tend to break easily, but they also have worse coverage against missiles - multiply height and width to see this is demonstrably true. Even the Heavy Board Shield, which should be the ultimate anti-arrow wall, has a total area of 1680,  slightly less than the Huscarl's 1849.

My 10k Steel Shield lasts a grand total of 5 hits against any Pole/2h Axe even at my 8 Shield Skill.  The cost and maintenance (not to mention the significant speed malice) of this thing is not at all justified by it's very lackluster performance on the battlefield.  It doesn't matter how much AGI or WPF I may have, I simply cannot counter attack fast enough after blocking a strike from a 2h or Polearm.  The shield and weapon animations work against each other.  Why nerf an already deficient weapon set even more? 

I've already abandoned my 1h/shield character in favor of a pure polearm dude with much greater success especially after improving my manual block skills a bit. 
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Christo on February 11, 2011, 06:05:35 pm
Weird, side sword spammers can sneak some hits in when I'm trying to attack their shields. Oh, maybe you're playing an unique style? If so, you're cool.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Vygar on February 11, 2011, 06:19:50 pm
I'm not sure what you're implying, but my "style" isn't out there or strange. 
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: IG_Saint on February 11, 2011, 06:33:27 pm
Everyone who wants to seriously fight with sword (or any other 1h) and shield must go for the Huscarl shield or they get their shield smashed. There it is. This problem has got worse lately as there are more axes about than there used to be before the patch. With, for instance, an elite cavalry shield I (BadbCatha) have to run away if I see someone with a two handed axe, because it'll be bash, bash, and I have no shield. With no shield, I have a shorter weapon which does less damage and am most certainly at a big disadvantage, not to mention the fact that smashing a shield will itself cause stun. My only option, even though I don't really like it, is to use a Huscarl. The non-round shields not only tend to break easily, but they also have worse coverage against missiles - multiply height and width to see this is demonstrably true. Even the Heavy Board Shield, which should be the ultimate anti-arrow wall, has a total area of 1680,  slightly less than the Huscarl's 1849.

Or put your shield away, kill the most likely noob spammer, and move on. Just because you play a sword and boarder doesn't mean you never have to manual block. Save your shield for the group fight and sword users. 1 guy with an axe should never destroy your shield because you should never be using a shield against him.

Anyway, shields need a buff. Huscarl is the only shield worth taking except for matters of style.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Punisher on February 11, 2011, 06:42:57 pm
Anyway, shields need a buff. Huscarl is the only shield worth taking except for matters of style.

So if there is 1 OP item, the logical thing to do is buff all others? :lol:
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Gorath on February 11, 2011, 06:52:04 pm
So if there is 1 OP item, the logical thing to do is buff all others? :lol:

That's the thing, that 1 item isn't OP, it's merely the only GOOD item in that category.  It's kind of like if 2hers only had the regular longsword at the top of their item tree.  Just about everyone would use it.  It wouldn't be because the longsword is OP, it's merely the best choice of a mediocre selection.

As for nerfing 1hers, that makes no sense either.  The heirloomed side sword might be a bit much (it does seem everyone uses that or the espanada anymore).  Sure they might be a bit slower when used by themselves, but then again they're disadvantaged in range and damage so shouldn't speed be on their side?  It would also further nerf/destroy fighting with a shield as using a shield already slows you down.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Dexxtaa on February 11, 2011, 07:48:51 pm
Heavier shields.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Gorath on February 11, 2011, 07:53:07 pm
Heavier shields.

Wouldn't really change everyone from using the huscarl if shields in general were just heavier.  It'd still be the only decent one in the list.  Though it would help counter the crush through from the bar mace, so maybe not a bad idea.   :D
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Dexxtaa on February 11, 2011, 07:53:58 pm
Wouldn't really change everyone from using the huscarl if shields in general were just heavier.  It'd still be the only decent one in the list.  Though it would help counter the crush through from the bar mace, so maybe not a bad idea.   :D

Extremely heavy shields.

I could do with a bit more indirect speed buff.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: EponiCo on February 11, 2011, 07:57:28 pm
Nah, I disagree here.
The other shields aren't useless, I use them myself and am about as effective as with bec or axe.
They are to unforgiving on side hits imo and could get a slight buff in durability, but I had no problem if the best shields were just a little better than the heavy round. And I'm pretty sure there's some rebalancing with 2h weapons and polearms to be done also, that should benefit the nonhuscarls anyway (*cough* barmace *cough*). Of course if throwing is changed this would take away a good reason to take shield also.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: DrKronic on February 11, 2011, 08:06:56 pm
Heavier shields.

I personally think the high cost bucklers should get a buff same with board shields because 12th to 16th century almost all forces that even used a shield were armed mostly with one or the other

More hp for steel shields bucklers should be fastest rated shields ingame and board shields should be faster than they are any level four and above shields should receive a buff

Its silly on my shielded if I want go fast I should be using quickbreak level three shields

Raise few a little on buckler but right now its expensive to wear one when u really have to direct the buckler block so weapons don't hit around it and of course you don't get the ranged defense that shields are known for

Add in the very high price and no one uses bucklers but in the 12-16 centuries sword and buckler fighting was very wide spread and effective in melee

I am only noting timeframe because devs mention that's the weapon/armor timeframe of cRPG
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Leshma on February 11, 2011, 08:12:52 pm
Steel Buckler looks like shit if you ask me.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Elmetiacos on February 11, 2011, 08:14:37 pm
Or put your shield away, kill the most likely noob spammer, and move on. Just because you play a sword and boarder doesn't mean you never have to manual block.
So since you're convinced that a weapon's length and damage have little impact on the fight, I take it you always fight with a practice sword?
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Dexxtaa on February 11, 2011, 08:24:16 pm
My avatar looks like shit if you ask me.

fix'd
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: IG_Saint on February 11, 2011, 08:29:09 pm
So since you're convinced that a weapon's length and damage have little impact on the fight, I take it you always fight with a practice sword?

I never said that, I simply stated that fighting an axe user with a shield is ludicrous. Nice reading comprehension.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Elmetiacos on February 11, 2011, 08:54:52 pm
I see, so you think I'd be better fighting with a one handed weapon and no shield than with the same weapon with a shield? Nurse!
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: IG_Saint on February 11, 2011, 09:10:56 pm
I see, so you think I'd be better fighting with a one handed weapon and no shield than with the same weapon with a shield? Nurse!

Against an axe, yes.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: EponiCo on February 11, 2011, 09:11:48 pm
No you aren't.
But against an axe (read - weapon that is shorter or slower than a 1h in many cases) you are better served to put your shield away and conserve it for another fight.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: IG_Saint on February 11, 2011, 09:23:43 pm
No you aren't.
But against an axe (read - weapon that is shorter or slower than a 1h in many cases) you are better served to put your shield away and conserve it for another fight.

That's what I meant, yes, why waste your shield against a weapon that's designed to counter shields.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Elmetiacos on February 11, 2011, 10:05:13 pm
Long Axe speed 93, length 115; Long War Axe speed 92 length 123; Great Long Axe speed 92, length 125. I'm not seeing the short, clumsy weapons you are.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Christo on February 11, 2011, 10:09:12 pm
Long Axe speed 93, length 115; Long War Axe speed 92 length 123; Great Long Axe speed 92, length 125. I'm not seeing the short, clumsy weapons you are.

Count the -20-22 length because of the Polearm Grip.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Elmetiacos on February 11, 2011, 10:19:01 pm
Count the -20-22 length because of the Polearm Grip.
Allegedly. Also count the massive stun from trying to parry the axe with your Weight 1 sword.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: IG_Saint on February 11, 2011, 10:28:40 pm
Allegedly. Also count the massive stun from trying to parry the axe with your Weight 1 sword.

You act as if you have no chance on winning without your shield, so I'll refer you to the quote in my signature and bid you good day, sir.

I said good day!
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: UrLukur on February 12, 2011, 12:15:39 am
Count the -20-22 length because of the Polearm Grip.

count the worse than stated length of 1h attack too.

Anyway, there is needed serious revamnp, i just want to catch arrows while iddle with hitbox of shield (bypassing hardcoded stuff using cmp tool) and more shield diversity.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Casimir on February 12, 2011, 12:21:03 am
on my 1hr i often run around with no shield, stun is gone if you just block two in a row, its not hard at all.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Elmetiacos on February 12, 2011, 01:06:15 am
on my 1hr i often run around with no shield, stun is gone if you just block two in a row, its not hard at all.
But can you see how the first blow's stun may prevent you from blocking two in a row because you're already dead?
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: IG_Saint on February 12, 2011, 01:13:20 am
But can you see how the first blow's stun may prevent you from blocking two in a row because you're already dead?

Not really, since stun doesn't have any affect on blocking. Just block left.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Elmetiacos on February 12, 2011, 01:39:09 am
Not really, since stun doesn't have any affect on blocking. Just block left.
Oh yeah. Sorry.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Casimir on February 12, 2011, 01:41:00 am
block the first swing, stunned, block the second wing, not stunned, begin to fight like a normal person.


Its not that hard, if you fail to block the first swing then yes you are probably fucked, but you've made the mistake and so are punished for that. Unfortunate but thats the price you pay for fighting something that is designed to counter your build.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Noble Crassius on February 12, 2011, 06:16:56 am
Ok so after taking a break from this thread to cool off a bit, this question got brought up from the bowls of our clan's forum
What about shields makes you think they are Over Powered?

Although not addressed to me I can be quoted in this very thread yelling that shielders are OP. So i thought to myself how can I explain my thoughts different than I already did here?
So i back tracked on my thinking and came up with this post right here: *disclaimer* (this is not a nerf/buff argument its my thoughts fresh from the mind, try to emphasize and understand what I am trying to say, not exactly what I say or how I say it.)

 
""Re: cRPG news

Postby Fallen_Crassius » Fri Feb 11, 2011 10:44 pm
I don't think stat wise 1handers are OP. (I believe a maybe a few items are, like the Huscarl, but thats true for almost every class)
(I'll try and explain my thoughts as best as possible)
It's more of I guess A playstyle disagreement. I see the one problems for shielders as:
1. We are so encumbered we are slow and therefore are more like slow deadly turtles.
so 2. Encumbrance is effected by weight, our best shields all slow us down a ton
3. Weight is so high because of the beastly HP on all our top tier shields (don't forget every point of shield skill stacks HP on even on shields with the same requirement.)
4. So if we nerf HP, the weights on shields should decrease
5. If weight decrease encumbrance decreases
6. if encumbrance decreases we will speed up and act more like a human with a shield.

I'm not calling on drastic HP nerfs just minor ones until HP to Speed ratio gets more balanced.

Heres my train of thought that led to the original post:
*I do think we should have the option of heavy shields, but they need draw backs along the lines of what the steel and board shield already have so they can remain the same
Sadly that leaves the only remaining top tier shield The Huscarl
The Huscarl breaks this rule* by having almost the same durability of these two shields but being the fastest/less encumbering. Bordering on OP as being durable+fast is simply a deadly combination. So nerf either the Huscarl's durability (what I want) or speed (what turtles and shield haters want) and buff the other. and since the Heavy Round Shield is only a little worse you would have to nerf that too. SO by effect its this whole round shield line getting nerfed.

Thats how the title "round shields nerf thread" came into being.

Questions? and if you disagree with something, before rebutting, please make sure you know what I fully meant on the point first cause (well 1. I'm usually not very clear in my train of thought) and 2. because in most of these forum back and forths its simple misunderstandings/generalizations that end up getting in the way of the true meaning behind peoples words. I wish the internet knew the saying of "When you assume you make an ass out of u and me.""

End post.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Wallace on February 12, 2011, 07:29:45 am
Ok I'm too tired to go into depth maybe i'll waste my time doing it tommorrow but if anything sword and board needs a buff

To be continued
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Punisher on February 12, 2011, 09:48:34 am
Ok I'm too tired to go into depth maybe i'll waste my time doing it tommorrow but if anything sword and board needs a buff

To be continued

Really? Post-patch every single class except 1h+shield was nerfed, you got a speed buff. You really demand more buffing when you have the strongest class in the game? If you suck with 1h+shield it's your own fault, I see 1h+shield dominating the battlefield very often, why would you possibly need another buff.

Here is a screenshot taken yesterday for example, guess what class the top 3 players are:
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


But yes, 1h+shield is the weakest class, BUFF THEM NOW!!!!!!!1111111
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Heroin on February 12, 2011, 10:49:42 am
Really? Post-patch every single class except 1h+shield was nerfed, you got a speed buff.

Actually, shielders got nerfed pretty hard too. The shield size thing made huscarl shields the obvious choice for a shielder, as all other shields became a pathetic shadow of former glory.

If you want to point fingers at the people who DIDN'T get nerfed, look at polearms.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Christo on February 12, 2011, 10:59:28 am
If you want to point fingers at the people who DIDN'T get nerfed, look at polearms.

Bullshit. We've got a serious speed nerf, and damage nerf.
Throwers are the ones who got the weakest "nerf" though.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Xant on February 12, 2011, 12:16:15 pm
No, us throwers got nerfed BAD!!! If you want to see real OP, look at crossbowers!!!!
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Elmetiacos on February 12, 2011, 12:19:38 pm
When the patch first came out, after a few days you couldn't move for turtles. There are still probably more sword and shield people than before, but now many of them have moved over to polearms. There are perhaps a few more with two handed swords, not counting ninjas and samurai. To me this suggests people think polearms are at least as effective as one handers. But again, nearly all the primary sword and shield people are using Huscarls; the ones who aren't are either hybrids who lack the points to spend on shield skill or low levels who don't have it yet.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: BlackMilk on February 12, 2011, 12:41:16 pm
Xant : You cant nerf everything

Elmetiacos : +1
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Vexus on February 12, 2011, 12:42:52 pm
Hopefully when throwing will be lessened there will be less turtles on the fields.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Leshma on February 12, 2011, 03:30:28 pm
Exactly. Nerf throwing which is ridiculously OP atm and you'll see less shielders on the battlefield. Personally I would adjust prices of all ranged weapons so that the most expensive (best) ranged weapon costs around 20k (bows and xbows with ammo and throwing lances without). I would make it like this:

Basic ranged weapon (hunting xbow, hunting bow and stones): 2k
Also I would nerf those weapons (25 pierce for HXBOW, 12 cut for HBOW and 9 blunt for stones)

Higher ranked weapons I wouldn't touch stat wise but since they are much better than starter ranged gear prices will start at 8k for short bow, light xbow and darts

Higher class of ranged weapons would cost 12k (Nomad bow, xbow, francisca, war darts)

Next class would cost 15k (Khergit bow, Heavy Xbow, Javelins, Heavy Throwing Axes)

Best ranged weapons would cost 20k (Warbow/Longbow, Sniper Xbow, Jarids, Throwing Lances)

That's much better way to balance ranged than silly idea to remove crosshair. If you want to be bad ass thrower who one hits everything with his Throwing Lance you would have to pay 80k for set of 4 stacks which means you wouldn't be able to use such gear every round. Same is with armored horses, dunno why ridiculous throwing weapons get a discount.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Punisher on February 12, 2011, 03:34:55 pm
I agree with Leshma, this would definetly solve the worst problem with throwing - the SPAM.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Spawny on February 12, 2011, 03:41:22 pm
Exactly. Nerf throwing which is ridiculously OP atm and you'll see less shielders on the battlefield. Personally I would adjust prices of all ranged weapons so that the most expensive (best) ranged weapon costs around 20k (bows and xbows with ammo and throwing lances without). I would make it like this:

Basic ranged weapon (hunting xbow, hunting bow and stones): 2k
Also I would nerf those weapons (25 pierce for HXBOW, 12 cut for HBOW and 9 blunt for stones)

Higher ranked weapons I wouldn't touch stat wise but since they are much better than starter ranged gear prices will start at 8k for short bow, light xbow and darts

Higher class of ranged weapons would cost 12k (Nomad bow, xbow, francisca, war darts)

Next class would cost 15k (Khergit bow, Heavy Xbow, Javelins, Heavy Throwing Axes)

Best ranged weapons would cost 20k (Warbow/Longbow, Sniper Xbow, Jarids, Throwing Lances)

That's much better way to balance ranged than silly idea to remove crosshair. If you want to be bad ass thrower who one hits everything with his Throwing Lance you would have to pay 80k for set of 4 stacks which means you wouldn't be able to use such gear every round. Same is with armored horses, dunno why ridiculous throwing weapons get a discount.

Someone's butthurt.

I have an even better idea. Instead of nerfing something so hard nobody would even use it, just remove all throwing weapons from the game.
While you're at it, remove all weapons but sticks and stones.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: rustyspoon on February 12, 2011, 06:24:40 pm
Less spammy throwing would reduce the amount of shields going around. I think that throwing is fine as is though except for the rapid-fire throwing. Just add an additional second or two between each throw. Problem solved.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Elmetiacos on February 12, 2011, 08:17:58 pm
Looking at the little "how they died" icons during the game, I can't say I notice a great many more deaths from thrown spears or axes than there were before the patch. Throwing is scary for a while but most people only have eight or at most 12 ammo, so it's soon over. Better throwing spammers than the pre-patch situation of all the infantry having to hide for the first minute until the archery spam finished... by the way, I write as someone who gave up throwing when the patch arrived.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: LordBerenger on February 12, 2011, 08:30:10 pm
Exactly. Nerf throwing which is ridiculously OP atm and you'll see less shielders on the battlefield. Personally I would adjust prices of all ranged weapons so that the most expensive (best) ranged weapon costs around 20k (bows and xbows with ammo and throwing lances without). I would make it like this:

Basic ranged weapon (hunting xbow, hunting bow and stones): 2k
Also I would nerf those weapons (25 pierce for HXBOW, 12 cut for HBOW and 9 blunt for stones)

Higher ranked weapons I wouldn't touch stat wise but since they are much better than starter ranged gear prices will start at 8k for short bow, light xbow and darts

Higher class of ranged weapons would cost 12k (Nomad bow, xbow, francisca, war darts)

Next class would cost 15k (Khergit bow, Heavy Xbow, Javelins, Heavy Throwing Axes)

Best ranged weapons would cost 20k (Warbow/Longbow, Sniper Xbow, Jarids, Throwing Lances)

That's much better way to balance ranged than silly idea to remove crosshair. If you want to be bad ass thrower who one hits everything with his Throwing Lance you would have to pay 80k for set of 4 stacks which means you wouldn't be able to use such gear every round. Same is with armored horses, dunno why ridiculous throwing weapons get a discount.

Pretty good all in all untill i saw 1 tiny little thing.

....YOU WANT STONES TO COST 2K???! YOUMAD????

Lol Stones should be nerfed a little bit and remain as beginners equipment.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: TehSoviet on February 12, 2011, 08:45:49 pm
Shields not need to be nerfed. If you are smart you will realize you don't need to break a shield to kill the wearer. I am a 2H, and I have no trouble with shielders what-so-ever when using my german greatsword, they are easy to flank and trick. People like balbaroth and Cyranule give me problems, but they are a whole different tier of players. Great mauling them proves to work sometimes.

Use the 2hs longer reach, attack, and speed! Huscarl wearers are usually slow because the shield is awfully heavy. If you buff small shields, they will be light, strong, AND fast, and that will be OP. The only complaint I have for CRPG is pole-stun.

Yes, I know my posts are weirdly worded.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Leshma on February 12, 2011, 10:55:45 pm
Looking at the little "how they died" icons during the game, I can't say I notice a great many more deaths from thrown spears or axes than there were before the patch. Throwing is scary for a while but most people only have eight or at most 12 ammo, so it's soon over. Better throwing spammers than the pre-patch situation of all the infantry having to hide for the first minute until the archery spam finished...

EU1 server usually have 80-120 people online and that means nearly unlimited ammo for most throwers (you start with 12 javelins/jarids but there are at least 10 guys like you who left at least 20 javelins/jarids lying around, then there are guys with axes, with darts, with throwing lances, with daggers...). As a thrower you can easily kill best melee fighters easily, you eat archers for breakfast, horse archers are easy prey (even if there are 3 or 4 circling around you), xbowmen must kill you at long distance or they are dead in 99% of cases, lancers can only backstab you if they charge forward they are dead (BlueGreen was my favourite victim :mrgreen:). Only thing you can't shoot and kill easily are shielders. It takes a lot of ammo to break their shields so it's better not to face them alone, come back to your ally and let him duel the shielder. Wait for enemy shielder to turn his back and bam, he's dead meat. Right now, I don't think that throwing has any weakness apart for being a bit slow (mostly in movement, in combat you'll beat someone who's worse than you even if he has 3-4 times more agi).
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Leshma on February 12, 2011, 11:14:11 pm
Pretty good all in all untill i saw 1 tiny little thing.

....YOU WANT STONES TO COST 2K???! YOUMAD????

Lol Stones should be nerfed a little bit and remain as beginners equipment.

In this game beginners are called peasants, beginner equipment is actually peasant equipment. What is peasant equipment? Most of those tools (weapons) peasants are using every day (forks, scythes, hammers, hand axes, wood chopping axes and knives). Peasants shouldn't throw stones because that's not something they are very skilled at (they may had such competition at fairs but that's not something every peasant is good at), peasants shouldn't use sword even if it's made of wood and meant for practice. If they are using wooden swords they are clearly in training process which means they are soldiers not poor peasants trying to defend their village from bandits. Same goes for every type of ranged weapons (bows, xbows, throwing weapons). There isn't such thing as archer peasant, english peasants probably were trained in archery but that just means that none of them were true peasants. England clearly had many trained soldiers in those days, no wonder they were among the strongest military forces in Europe back then.

Btw. every type of ranged is easy mode because you're not engaged in combat. Shielders are in first lines, they need to be strong to survive. If anything this game needs is more melee fighters, even they are all shielders. Numbers of ranged units should drop significantly.

Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Christo on February 12, 2011, 11:18:12 pm
There isn't such thing as archer peasant

What about hunters?
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Leshma on February 12, 2011, 11:22:03 pm
What about hunters?

Quote from: Wiki
A peasant is an agricultural worker who generally owns or rents only a small plot of ground.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Noble Crassius on February 12, 2011, 11:34:47 pm
Ah so little peasant children playing swords with sticks were just midget soldiers in disguise! (lol you gatta be trolling)

"A peasant is an agricultural worker who generally owns or rents only a small plot of ground"...doesn't mean they didn't hunt numbnuts

And I don't think our crpg peasants own or rent any land, or farm (unless agiculture skill was put in place while I slept)

So by your very definition low level characters are not peasants but soldiers in training.

I didn't know it took skill to throw rocks

Swords are tools as well, tools of war, saying a peasent could not wield one is dumb. If you said effectively however then maybe that would be true

William Wallace led a peasants army of scots, and he managed to sack york!
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: UrLukur on February 13, 2011, 12:29:40 pm
First and foremost Huscarl shield need to be nerfed.

Now it's widest, best protecting in idle, one of the most resilient and offering decent enough speed.

I feel it should get a nerf a bit in resilience (reduce it's armor value) and a bit in speed (and other shield need a buff).
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Diomedes on February 13, 2011, 06:41:28 pm
wah wah waaah

This game is way more fun once you allow realism to be secondary to balance.  It also relieves you of a all those nasty double-think headaches you get when you try to argue that, for the sake of realism, throwing stones should cost two thousand gold.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Leshma on February 13, 2011, 09:45:30 pm
I'm a pathetic thrower because I suck at everything else.

Couldn't agree more :D
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Diomedes on February 13, 2011, 10:43:14 pm
Couldn't agree more :D

Quote
Strength   18   
Agility   18   

Weapon proficiency
Available points: 0
One Handed   140
Two Handed   1   
Polearm   86   
Archery   1   
Crossbow   1   
Throwing   2   

Skills
Available points: 0
Ironflesh   0   
Power Strike   5   
Shield   6   
Athletics   6   
Riding   6   
Horse Archery   0   
Power Draw   0   
Power Throw   0   
Weapon master 6   
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: rustyspoon on February 13, 2011, 10:47:33 pm
First and foremost Huscarl shield need to be nerfed.

Now it's widest, best protecting in idle, one of the most resilient and offering decent enough speed.

I feel it should get a nerf a bit in resilience (reduce it's armor value) and a bit in speed (and other shield need a buff).

Nothing wrong with the Huscarl. If you're trying to break the shield instead of killing the guy behind it, you're doing it wrong.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Xant on February 13, 2011, 10:49:21 pm
Nothing wrong with the Huscarl. If you're trying to break the shield instead of killing the guy behind it, you're doing it wrong.

Except you can't kill the guy behind it before the shield breaks if he's playing defensive.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Diomedes on February 13, 2011, 11:10:06 pm
Except you can't kill the guy behind it before the shield breaks if he's playing defensive.

Not necessarily.  Some possibilities:

1) If you play a shielder against his teammates they may team-strike him
2) If you play a shielder against your teammates you or they will likely strike him
3) if you're fast you can strike a shielder's back/side
4) kick and slash a defensive shielder
5) call over horses to bump/trample a troublesome shielder
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Xant on February 13, 2011, 11:15:31 pm
Not necessarily.  Some possibilities:

1) If you play a shielder against his teammates they may team-strike him
2) If you play a shielder against your teammates you or they will likely strike him
3) if you're fast you can strike a shielder's back/side
4) kick and slash a defensive shielder
5) call over horses to bump/trample a troublesome shielder

Yes, if the shielder is a total nub. 3 and 4 especially require the shielder to suck some donkey balls.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Civilian on February 14, 2011, 12:51:05 am
6) Crushthrough defensive shielder
7) Break shield faster with axe/throwing weapons
8) Double team defensive shielder to get behind him for attack
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Diomedes on February 14, 2011, 02:19:36 am
Yes, if the shielder is a total nub. 3 and 4 especially require the shielder to suck some donkey balls.

Striking the back of a shielder is a context-dependent trick.  Sometimes I've backpedalled to make my enemy think he has friends behind him but when he turns I use my abnormal athletics to knock him down.  Kicking is also context-dependent since it's so uncommon that many skilled shielders don't anticipate it unless you're being really obvious about it.  The best kicks, though, are when you time it right so as to kick them while they're running sideways.  It often throws both the character and the player behind it a little off balance.


Wow, reading my comments makes it sound like I'm a really deceitful player   :(
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: panderson on February 14, 2011, 02:41:25 am
6) Crushthrough defensive shielder
7) Break shield faster with axe/throwing weapons
8) Double team defensive shielder to get behind him for attack

I would like point out that #7 is not an alternative to breaking someones shield....
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: UrLukur on February 14, 2011, 01:24:21 pm
Striking the back of a shielder is a context-dependent trick.  Sometimes I've backpedalled to make my enemy think he has friends behind him but when he turns I use my abnormal athletics to knock him down.  Kicking is also context-dependent since it's so uncommon that many skilled shielders don't anticipate it unless you're being really obvious about it.  The best kicks, though, are when you time it right so as to kick them while they're running sideways.  It often throws both the character and the player behind it a little off balance.


Wow, reading my comments makes it sound like I'm a really deceitful player   :(

Striking the back dont work against round shields.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Diomedes on February 14, 2011, 06:52:48 pm
Striking the back dont work against round shields.

>> Yes it does.  I've a few kills to prove it.

>> They must have been new, it doesn't work against GOOD players with round shields

>> So good players are hard to kill.  Got it.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: rustyspoon on February 14, 2011, 07:44:19 pm
As a shielder I have no problem fighting against another shielder. (Other than the fight being boring as hell)

So, I can't believe that a 2-hander or a polearm user would have any trouble against a shielder. My polearm guy eats shielders for breakfast.

Again, the only change I think is needed is to have shield speed mean something. If the lighter, less durable shields were faster, it would give people a reason to use them.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Engine on February 14, 2011, 07:55:23 pm
Huscarl needs to lose a few HP, imo. It's ubiquitous and there are very few high-end shields that are a good alternative.

Or just add more high-end shields.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Gorath on February 14, 2011, 08:07:11 pm
Huscarl needs to lose a few HP, imo. It's ubiquitous and there are very few high-end shields that are a good alternative.

Or just add more high-end shields.

Fast, fighter shields pl0x!
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: rustyspoon on February 14, 2011, 08:12:19 pm
Huscarl needs to lose a few HP, imo. It's ubiquitous and there are very few high-end shields that are a good alternative.

Or just add more high-end shields.

All the high-end shields except for the huscarl are pretty terrible. I mean, why would anyone use the buckler unless they like the look? It's expensive, tiny and breaks in two hits from an axe.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: UrLukur on February 14, 2011, 08:18:38 pm
>> Yes it does.  I've a few kills to prove it.

>> They must have been new, it doesn't work against GOOD players with round shields

>> So good players are hard to kill.  Got it.

Rather, it's way harder to kill people with round shields than people with high shields. There is no point going for high shield when round ones are so much better, barring style.

By the same token, why use smaller shield when larger are much better.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Kalam on February 14, 2011, 08:21:30 pm
I realize it's been said, but I feel the need to stress these points:

When using any other shield against long and/or curved 2h/polearms, it tends to be very easy to find an angle with which they can just ghost through the shield, even when the shielder is facing them head on. This is a general issue that happens anyway with the huscarl, it just happens more with the smaller shields. I do it to shielders when I'm using a katana, claymore or polearm, and it's a hell of a lot easier to do against someone without a huscarl.

More importantly, arrows and throwing weapons have a higher chance of riddling you through these same angles on every other shield. I don't know about you guys, but the only reason to use 1h in battle for me (duels are a different story) is in order to use a shield that offers protection against enemy ranged fire. The only alternative is the heavy board shield, and that's way too slow for my style of combat.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: EponiCo on February 14, 2011, 08:50:53 pm
All the high-end shields except for the huscarl are pretty terrible. I mean, why would anyone use the buckler unless they like the look? It's expensive, tiny and breaks in two hits from an axe.

I tried the buckler a bit on the duel server. Didn't have a big problem with it's tinyness, I just made sure I always turned correctly. Granted it wasn't a big test really going for coverage. But its big advantage is it simply won't break to normal melee weapons and it is fast. So it's a dueling shield, but bad for the battlefield, but that makes sense actually.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Diomedes on February 14, 2011, 08:57:52 pm
All the high-end shields except for the huscarl are pretty terrible. I mean, why would anyone use the buckler unless they like the look? It's expensive, tiny and breaks in two hits from an axe.

I use the knightly heater shield sometimes.  Smaller radius and less health but better against axes and significantly faster.  I'm not an exceptionally good player but on the very rare occasion that I kill a very good player (ManofWar, Harmless Peasant, etc.) I'm generally using the knightly heater shield.  The speed of the huscarl is slow enough that you can almost always predict the attacks of those using it, while the knightly heater shield leaves a little more up to the imagination.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: UrLukur on February 14, 2011, 09:09:09 pm
Main thing that bugs me with shield apart from horrible internal balance is that with every one you move slow like turtle.

I use the knightly heater shield sometimes.  Smaller radius and less health but better against axes and significantly faster.  I'm not an exceptionally good player but on the very rare occasion that I kill a very good player (ManofWar, Harmless Peasant, etc.) I'm generally using the knightly heater shield.  The speed of the huscarl is slow enough that you can almost always predict the attacks of those using it, while the knightly heater shield leaves a little more up to the imagination.

It's actually worse against axes, and it's not much faster.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Diomedes on February 14, 2011, 10:06:45 pm
It's actually worse against axes, and it's not much faster.

Really?  My understanding was that armour had a significant effect upon the damage that axes do, but that's mostly just hearsay.  As for speed I find it noticeable - enough that, with 6 shield skill, I can block comfortably on reflexes rather than considered tactics.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Engine on February 14, 2011, 10:10:08 pm
Blocking isn't a problem on any shield once you reach 5 or 6 skill. Unfortunately that skill has no effect on the speed of lowering the shield after a block.

The only other high-end shields I think have any real use are the Norman or the Board shield, and the Board can't be used on a horse.

We need more options.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Kalam on February 14, 2011, 10:15:33 pm
The only issue with the Knightly Heater in the build I use these days is coverage vs. ranged. It's just so much easier to use a huscarl to make sure a stray arrow, bolt, or jarid doesn't kill me.

However, the knightly heater is my favourite shield to use in melee combat, if I use a shield. It does break faster than a huscarl, but with a high enough shield skill, that's less of an issue.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: bruce on February 14, 2011, 11:53:24 pm
So it's a dueling shield, but bad for the battlefield, but that makes sense actually.

Actually by the plate era when a shield wasn't so needed to fend off arrows/etc (because armour was quite effective at this) the buckler was quite common on the battlefield (unlike other shields which were at that point rarely used by armoured men at arms-  but which were still used by lightly armoured troops). They were quite common. The spanish used sword and buckler men them to break "push of pike" situations. Most men accompanying Cortes were sword and buckler men.

The buckler was a military shield, not a dueling civilian shield.

Really?  My understanding was that armour had a significant effect upon the damage that axes do, but that's mostly just hearsay.  As for speed I find it noticeable - enough that, with 6 shield skill, I can block comfortably on reflexes rather than considered tactics.

Axes break high armour low HP shields much better then they break low armour high HP shields. Same goes with high damage weapons in general. For instance, when I use a 1h with my 1 wpf and 6 PS I can never break a plated round shield, while I do break a huscarl in about 35 hits or so. With a masterwork glaive and my 25 wpf I break the plated round shield much much faster then I break a huscarl. (We did some testing with standing stationary and beating on the shield, so speed bonuses aren't factored in even).

With an axe, it takes two hits to break a plated round shield, and 7 or so for a huscarl. It is possible to one-hit destroy a plated round shield with really good speed bonus and a GLA (that was tested on a char with 6 PS and 144 wpf).
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Noble Crassius on February 15, 2011, 02:28:40 am
Plated round shield is retarded



Round shield
Weight 6
requirement 2
hit points 310
body armor 12
spd rtng 87
shield width 39

Plate covered round shield
weight 10
requirement 4
hit points 100
body armor 50
spd rtng 75
shield width 31

The hit points are so low it will literally be destroyed by anything. Why should the plate covered round shield not be the same as a round shield HP wise? Isn't it the same shield just covered by plate? This is one of the shields most needing a buff. It literally does nothing good.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: bruce on February 15, 2011, 02:37:17 am
The hit points are so low it will literally be destroyed by anything. Why should the plate covered round shield not be the same as a round shield HP wise? Isn't it the same shield just covered by plate? This is one of the shields most needing a buff. It literally does nothing good.

Agreed, the shield is so bad (and in addition to it being so bad, it weights a ton, costs quite a bit, and is slow as hell) in comparison with, well, any other shield. Waste of a good looking model.


Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: UrLukur on February 15, 2011, 03:08:28 pm
Really?  My understanding was that armour had a significant effect upon the damage that axes do, but that's mostly just hearsay.  As for speed I find it noticeable - enough that, with 6 shield skill, I can block comfortably on reflexes rather than considered tactics.

Blocking isnt big issue with either shield. Only feinting is bit better with higher speed shield.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Vygar on February 15, 2011, 03:47:59 pm
Really?  My understanding was that armour had a significant effect upon the damage that axes do, but that's mostly just hearsay.  As for speed I find it noticeable - enough that, with 6 shield skill, I can block comfortably on reflexes rather than considered tactics.

My Steel Shield lasts about 4 hits against any pole/2handed axe..and it has extremely high armour. 

Quote
Agreed, the shield is so bad (and in addition to it being so bad, it weights a ton, costs quite a bit, and is slow as hell) in comparison with, well, any other shield. Waste of a good looking model.

I also agree.  I also believe that the Steel Shield needs a buff.  This thing is so extremely expensive (10k), doesn't function against axes any better than lesser shields, is SUPER slow, and doesn't have enough coverage.  I pay about 500g just to maintenance the thing.  Hell, I go broke running Side Sword/Steel Shield and wearing no armour at all!  1h/Shield is pretty gimped!
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Noble Crassius on February 15, 2011, 04:12:26 pm
I'm thinking that axes bypass armor, and maybe the shield skill bonuses.

I base this on two facts

that every one is claiming 3-4 strikes with an axe for their shields to break. Which at shield skill 3,+ heavy round shield it was 3-4 strikes for me as well.
and
The plate covered round shield has such high armor and it still breaks in like one axe hit (two at most)

One thing is clear Hp>Armour as far as shields go.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Engine on February 15, 2011, 09:04:37 pm
One thing is clear Hp>Armour as far as shields go.

100%.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: UrLukur on February 16, 2011, 03:09:47 pm
I'm thinking that axes bypass armor, and maybe the shield skill bonuses.

I base this on two facts

that every one is claiming 3-4 strikes with an axe for their shields to break. Which at shield skill 3,+ heavy round shield it was 3-4 strikes for me as well.
and
The plate covered round shield has such high armor and it still breaks in like one axe hit (two at most)

One thing is clear Hp>Armour as far as shields go.

Weapons with bonus against shields deal twice the amount of damage when hitting shields. Generally speaking, high armor-low HP shields (not metal ones, those are slightly different) are about equal against 1h weapons without bonus against shield (on agi character some balanced hybrids, they are worse against STR and balanced dedicated characters with 1h) , better against peasants and WAY WORSE against 2h/polearms (regardless if they have bonus against shield or not).

So really they are not any good against endgame characters and characters with loomed weapons.

Main issue lies in soak and reduction values, high damage attack virtually bypass armor, and reduction value from 25 armor is about 20 % against cut, worse against others. Percentage value need to be increased in order to make high armor shields (and high tier armor) worth it.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Vicious666 on February 25, 2011, 06:37:34 am
ppl should not argue with xant about balancement, he simply say imba or op to everything that is not his class/weapon      , i am sure if i open a 3d about nerf phantom reach of lolstab of his beloved  german/danish, he will say IS OK


look  steel pick 3d
look cavalry 3d
look this 3d
he fight always for nerf what ne not use

also he never used     personally    all the above things, so is purely trolling
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Siiem on February 25, 2011, 09:05:28 am
i am sure if i open a 3d about nerf phantom reach of lolstab of his beloved  german/danish, he will say IS OK

Phantom reach of 2h swords is largely removed due to the new stab animation.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Aldwyn on February 25, 2011, 12:52:45 pm
Find a way to make non round shields a viable choice, other than their style and lower price.  I'm tired of seeing knights and ninjas running around with viking shields.
Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: Xant on February 25, 2011, 03:12:57 pm
ppl should not argue with xant about balancement, he simply say imba or op to everything that is not his class/weapon      , i am sure if i open a 3d about nerf phantom reach of lolstab of his beloved  german/danish, he will say IS OK


look  steel pick 3d
look cavalry 3d
look this 3d
he fight always for nerf what ne not use

also he never used     personally    all the above things, so is purely trolling

lulz. 2h thrust doesn't have a phantom range, otherwise nice try.

Title: Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
Post by: UrLukur on February 25, 2011, 10:30:13 pm
Phantom reach of 2h swords is largely removed due to the new stab animation.

It is, now we have another kind of lolstab. Still nasty.