shield don't need nerf but "Bonus against Shield" weapons need buff
[/spoiler](click to show/hide)
Most agreed
NERF HUSCARL
And then every axe in the game would 1-hit the top tier shields like they do with any non-huscarl shield.I'm not suggesting to nerf it into the ground, just to a minor reduction. I brought up the other argument cuz in each case the whines prevailed so it should in this case too. :D
What would be the point of shields again?
The other arguments you put up:
*blah blah blah cut for shortness*
I disagree with this topic WHOLE FREAKIN HEARTEDLY, I was a polearm user forpre-patch and went to shield post patch. Shielder have it tough, they may not have to manually block but they have to foot work alot and have to time their strikes, pretty well in order to kill anything. Their animation is a shit ton slower then any other animation, and it annoyingly whiffs a lot more then that, because of the animation. Shielders can't face hug and they always have to stay in the thin line of distance for any killing ability. This is why i find this topic pointless and needing this input to end this argument.Sorry to say but you just might be a sucky shielder. We have the easiest play style right-click face-hug up-attack. 90% of the player base falls to this. I'm a shielder and I find our play style the easiest one to maintain I get so bored I take risks on purpose just to see if I CAN die. I'm not talking about attack related issues I finally think 1hands are on par with 2h/polearms in terms of speed and damage but now that thats that our ultimate defense needs to be nerfed.
... And then I just stopped using a shield altogether and now I'm a 1h without a shield.(It slows me Down)The truth comes out :lol:
Everyone uses the huscarl shield because every other shield got nerfed into the dirt. People bitched and moaned about shields in general before because of the "force field" effect, and now shielders are pretty much required to use a huscarl if they don't want people shooting them in the feet/head, even with high shield skill.Everyone was using the Huscarl way before the patch it's been the main shield for a while now. It weighs 9 yes but the other top tier shields weigh MORE and only for a little more protection. Theres a big difference between how much 9 slows you down and the 11 a board shield does.
I think huscarl shield is fine. It weighs 9!!!! That much weight slows you down a lot when paired with other equipment. If you have a problem with everyone running around with huscarl shields these days, campaign for the most recent shield changes to be reverted. I suspect you will have more luck.
Were this a vote, I definitely would not vote to nerf the huscarl shield. And I don't play a shielder. I play a 2hander, polearmer, and xbowman.
It's not fair that we don't have to manual block AT ALL most of the time.
Then it's not fair that shielders have to expend skill points to both use a shield in general, and make it not a big pile of suck (IE: Fragile as a bird soaked in liquid nitrogen).I have 3 shield skill, use a heavy round shield (just recently down-graded from the huscarl) my shield will not break to a single opponent not using an axe weapon. It will usually take 3-4 non axe wielding people to cause my shield great harm. When it breaks I grab another. So there's that...Please stop lobbying for your class and think about what I'm trying to do..(balance our class)
If this Hp nerf does go through I do think that it should be padded by;
1. buff to smaller shields
2. Weight reduction to those that recieve the HP nerf
3. And/or a speed increase for those effected by HP nerf
This will effectively make our shield faster (making it easier to block/counter attack with) but not let them last forever.
I have 3 shield skill, use a heavy round shield (just recently down-graded from the huscarl) my shield will not break to a single opponent not using an axe weapon. It will usually take 3-4 non axe wielding people to cause my shield great harm. When it breaks I grab another. So there's that...Please stop lobbying for your class and think about what I'm trying to do..(balance our class)
Poll added. First post updated.
Actually if you had any idea what was going on in the world of the NA servers you would know that I'm always either playing a 2her or polearm character. Period. This isn't lobbying for my class, it's lobbying against an unnecessary nerf to the weakest melee class and a buff to the two strongest.Lol sorry to say Gorath but I don't keep personal tabs on you, I never was one for hero worship you see. This nerf could be considered a BUFF why? For all purposes 1hand are the weakest cuz we are SLOW (run speed). Our top tier shields slow us down so much it's hard to maintain people in our reach. The biggest problem I have is back peddling spammers, I'd imagine is across the board. Nerf the HP BUFF the speed and LOWER the weight and we will have less TURTLES and more KILLERS! My goal is to get shielders out of their shell and give them a chance to kill. 1h wep speed has already been buffed to the point where people are whining this is the only way left.
Your heavy round shield, at shield skill 3, will break in 2-4 hits from my Mancleaver. It will break on my other character using his great long axe in 2-3 hits as well. I've tested a variety of shields on the duel server with those in my clan that do use shields at high levels (Dyval is a champ about letting me abuse him for testing and he has 6 shield skill with an elite cav shield, heirloomed and I still chew through it with my great long axe or mancleaver pretty damn fast).Your Mancleaver (nice name lol) most likely master worked (correct me if I'm wrong) probably has an insane amount of damage on it, no? however I highly doubt it will only take 2-3 hits for my shield to break i'd imagine more like 4-5 but I guess I have nothing to do but believe you *shrug*. (are we talking about the 1h version or the 2h version??)
Lol sorry to say Gorath but I don't keep personal tabs on you, I never was one for hero worship you see.I don't expect you to. Was merely making a point in a semi-dickish manner. :wink: I haven't played a shielder very much at all since the patch because I really don't see much point other than for preference in style (which I can understand).
This nerf could be considered a BUFF why? For all purposes 1hand are the weakest cuz we are SLOW (run speed). Our top tier shields slow us down so much it's hard to maintain people in our reach. The biggest problem I have is back peddling spammers, I'd imagine is across the board. Nerf the HP BUFF the speed and LOWER the weight and we will have less TURTLES and more KILLERS!Or we'll just have less shielders overall. My point is that a double act balance adjustment like this is the wrong way to go about it. Give incentives for the other shields to be used first. THEN if the big shields are a problem (which I don't think they are at the moment either) work on nerfing them.
My goal is to get shielders out of their shell and give them a chance to kill. 1h wep speed has already been buffed to the point where people are whining this is the only way left.I'd like that as well, however shielders aren't an issue atm anyways. You even acknowledge that 1hers are the weakest of the holy trinity (2h/pole/1h) of melee. The shields are annoying you and they have alot of haters, I hear it in VOIP all the time. Hate shields. They're not strong, but "gay" or "annoying" or "ez-mode". Not a balance thing, just a personal dislike for them is rather prevelant among the non-shielders since they're seen as lesser players.
Your Mancleaver (nice name lol) most likely master worked (correct me if I'm wrong) probably has an insane amount of damage on it, no? however I highly doubt it will only take 2-3 hits for my shield to break i'd imagine more like 4-5 but I guess I have nothing to do but believe you *shrug*. (are we talking about the 1h version or the 2h version??)The 2h version. Unbalanced, and actually I just retired and heirloomed it for the first time today. It used to deal 43c. Now it does 46c. No bonus vs shields (which I honestly think it should have since they made it unbalanced for god knows why).
I have to disagree with this. I use an heirloomed heavy round shield and trust me, it breaks a lot as it is. 3 or 4 hits with an axe and no more shield. I just don't see the shields as they are being any kind of problem. If shields were weaker, what would be the point? Why not just make a 2 hander or a polearm user?
I use a shield because I like the playstyle. I find it fun. I don't see how they are overpowered at all really. Having a shield makes you very slow, which in turn makes it a hell of a lot harder to feint fast 2 handers.
If shields need any changes, it would be to have shield speed actually mean something. As it is, they are all equally fast. If certain shields got an actual speed boost that meant something, maybe people would start to use different shields.
If you have trouble against shielders in general as another melee build and you're not using really short weapons, you need to work on your overall game. The biggest advantage to being a shielder is that you don't die as much to ranged builds.It's not that I'm having trouble per say, its that after I hit a shield 6-10 times I get BORED (and tired maybe causing me to miss a block or two >.>). Good shielders (or the rly bad ones i.e. turtles) will never die unless some one comes in and rapes them in the ass. If shielders could become more offensive based and less defensive based I would be oh so happy (and might want to play on my main again)
My preferred play style will always be a light armoured 2-hander, but I have a tendency to get slaughtered before reaching the battle with it, so I've stopped playing it as much.
It's not that I'm having trouble per say, its that after I hit a shield 6-10 times I get BORED (and tired maybe causing me to miss a block or two >.>). Good shielders (or the rly bad ones i.e. turtles) will never die unless some one comes in and rapes them in the ass. If shielders could become more offensive based and less defensive based I would be oh so happy (and might want to play on my main again)
Here's how you can stop that: just sidestep and slash with a long 2h/polearm. It doesn't matter if the shielder has high athletics, it's just a matter of finding the right angle. It'll 'go through the shield' just like it goes through blocks on shorter weapons. I do this all the time to shielders when I'm a 2-hander/polearm user.
Though shielders are my nemesis, I don't want to see them take too much of a nerf. I'd be happy with an increase in weight for all shields (slow you bastards down a bit more :D ) but an actual buff in stats for those shields which are at the moment rarely ever used.mate shields are heaviest than in native already.
Or we'll just have less shielders overall.Less shielders over all will be a GOOD thing. There are so many shielders out there now with more and more popping up every day its hard not to say this class is op. This class can make an average player top the score boards pretty consistently (me before I realized I was playing a horribly OP class and stopped trying so hard.)
You even acknowledge that 1hers are the weakest of the holy trinity (2h/pole/1h) of melee.Yes but context is always a good thing to include, why we are weakest is because were so encumbered we act like TURTLES. I think were OP in the fact that (since none disagreed with this I have to assume its agreed) we finally can counter-attack pretty damn effectively (we can't really get spammed to death anymore - 2hands/PA HAVE to block against us) but our untouchable defense is still there! Our class is afforded HIGH OFFENSE and UNPENATRATBLE DEFENSE can you say thats true of any other class?
The shields are annoying you and they have alot of haters, I hear it in VOIP all the time. Hate shields. They're not strong, but "gay" or "annoying" or "ez-mode". Not a balance thing, just a personal dislike for them is rather prevelant among the non-shielders since they're seen as lesser players.It's more than a personal dislike for them I've spent 7 gens as a shielder starting from pre-patch, and I got to say I highly dislike my class as it is now cause it's so OP. Lets not take a look at it stat wise but from the fact that our blocking is so easy we only die due to US making a mistake. That is the ONLY way for us to die. Thats ok tho because it's what shields are for. However now that we can attack so effectively is it really fair to everyone else?
You even acknowledge that 1hers are the weakest of the holy trinity (2h/pole/1h) of melee.
Playing a shielder is ridiculously easy, really. Mostly because people just suck so hard vs them, but as a 2hander I'd rather fight two really skilled 2handers at once than one really skilled shielder with a heirloomed sidesword. But yeah, basically you get tons of free kills by just holding RMB, watching and giggling as people run at you with a chambered attack.. then you attack, run forward, score a hit. Then hold RMB again, no matter how skilled the opponent is, it doesn't matter. He can do the most awesome feint ever, you can just rofl as long as your finger doesn't cramp.Bah.
Ever tried taking your fancy shield to the duelservers?
I have. Tons of times. I get owned by every single good dueler out there.
Ever tried taking your fancy shield to the duelservers?
Shields are not for duels (except buckler) you'll get owned by back peddle spam. Plus duelist are usually top of the line players if you have to bring a shield to even stand a chance against them then this game type isnt for you
I have. Tons of times. I get owned by every single good dueler out there.
The TURTH!
Feinting with a shield is slower -> Easier to block. Especially with a huscarl shield. I changed to a knightly heater or elite cav shield for more speed and did a bit better.
I want to NERF the survivability of top teir shields and make them faster/less encumbering
If you don't turn fast enough, they can bypass your shield from the side and just swing through it. Something that does not happen with a plain right block when I put my shield away.
This happens occasionally and is due to both of the players skilled involved. This is a personnel issue of yours and not readily acceptable as a balancing argument
On a battle or siege server, when I've fought a decent manual blocker and managed to kill him, more often than not my shield won't take another 2 hits before breaking. I've never seen a 2h sword break.
Should you be beating these good players so readily? I mean would you be able to beat them consistently with say a 2h? And just pick another one off the ground :lol:
When looking at the score boards, it's still not just shielders in the top 10, but mostly a variety of classes. Just because everyone uses the huscarl shield doesn't mean it's OP, it just means it's the best shield around.
This is true only because most good players ditch the shield asap because it's viewed as EZ mode. people see 1handers as UP because its the goto choice for newbies and noobs alike but when a DECENT player stays with this build it becomes deadly
Primary 1h/Shield users trade a great deal in terms of mobility and attack initiation speed when using their weapon and shield simultaneously. If anything, Shield Skill should Contribute to Damage and/or speed in order to offset this discrepancy. There really is too little return.Yes thats exactly what I want changed!! but to do this a HP nerf would have to be in order I mean lets face it unless an axe is brought out our shields won't break to a single opponent, which basically = I win...Unless you know you fuck it up.
I've very recently abandoned my Side Sword/Steel Shield toon for an all Polearm character with such great success that I don't even carry a shield at all anymore.
Even the board shield, which is visually goddamn large, has much less defacto coverage then a huscarl, with 28 width vs 43 width.I need to do some more testing, but I am fairly certain that shield skill has a vastly greater impact on expanding vertical coverage than on expanding horizontal coverage. It also appears that the width of the shield is what determines the size of the arc in which it will block melee attacks. The vertical dimensions do not seem to play a roll in blocking melee attacks. In general, it seems that shield width is more important than shield height, and every non-buckler round shield is wider than every non-round shield.
If you don't turn fast enough, they can bypass your shield from the side and just swing through it. Something that does not happen with a plain right block when I put my shield away.I have noticed this a lot since the patch. I would like to sling my shield and use my awlpike with two hands more often, since I feel more consistent when manually blocking. However, I will often be shot shortly after putting it away, so I usually don't.
I mean lets face it unless an axe is brought out our shields won't break to a single opponent, which basically = I win...Unless you know you fuck it up.
Would quote but damn Gorath that is a wall of text. you forgot some shields in that list of unbreakables but I'll over look that tiny detail. You see I don't want to nit pick on one part of a post that I disagree with I view the WHOLE picture. Alright I over exaggerated, I'll admit that for most shielders what I said is not the case /agree. (but there is the potential for it to be true and you know this).Just stream of conciousness writing. I'm quite prone to random walls of text.
However what annoys me the most about you right now is how you completely ignore the rest of my points and post a wall against one tincy little sentence.
I offer an olive branch of sorts. Let us drop this Sophist dialouge trying to convince the masses and lets get down to the basics. I just want to ask you some questions so I know your stances and beliefs. Will you answer my questions?No need for an olive branch, this isn't a fight. Just a discussion. :wink: And yep, I got no problem with answering any question.
How awesome would it be if 2 handers and polearms broke in combat. :D
Shields are not for duels (except buckler) you'll get owned by back peddle spam.
If you bring a buckler, you might aswell manual block. The thing is so tiny, you get hit by side swings if you don't turn into the incomming swing.
Plus duelist are usually top of the line players if you have to bring a shield to even stand a chance against them then this game type isnt for you.
Where did I say I have to bring a shield to stand a chance against them? I'm an average manual blocker and I have more chance beating good duelists with my level 21 polearms guys than I have with my level 30 1h/shielder
Feinting with a shield is slower -> Easier to block. Especially with a huscarl shield. I changed to a knightly heater or elite cav shield for more speed and did a bit better.
I want to NERF the survivability of top teir shields and make them faster/less encumbering.
I agree with the last part. No clue why you would nerf the survivability of the top tier shields. It's what makes a top tier shield a top tier shield. Anyway, gorath made a nice post why nerfing survivability shouldn't happen.
This happens occasionally and is due to both of the players skilled involved. This is a personnel issue of yours and not readily acceptable as a balancing argument.
It's actually due to weird shield hitboxes. According to the animation and the model, the sword should hit the edge of the shield and be blocked but instead it goes straight through. I'm not talking about someone getting behind me.
On a battle or siege server, when I've fought a decent manual blocker and managed to kill him, more often than not my shield won't take another 2 hits before breaking. I've never seen a 2h sword break.
Should you be beating these good players so readily? I mean would you be able to beat them consistently with say a 2h? And just pick another one off the ground.
So just because I picked sword&board I'm not allowed to fight more than 1 battle vs an equal opponent? After that first battle, my only advantage of picking a 1h weapon (the shield) should be destroyed so I get to play with a range/damage penalty compared to 2h/polearms. Right. Makes sense. Main reason why I rolled a polearms guy and get kills easier about 10 levels earlier.
This is true only because most good players ditch the shield asap because it's viewed as EZ mode. people see 1handers as UP because its the goto choice for newbies and noobs alike but when a DECENT player stays with this build it becomes deadly.
Hmmm... So there's no noob 2h spammers and stuff? Anyway, weird argument.
I agree with the last part. No clue why you would nerf the survivability of the top tier shields. It's what makes a top tier shield a top tier shield. Anyway, gorath made a nice post why nerfing survivability shouldn't happen.Look at the poll most people think shields are fine as is, to buff one aspect we will have to nerf another. I for one would rather have a slightly less durable high tier shield that is faster/less encumbering would you agree to the same?
It's actually due to weird shield hitboxes. According to the animation and the model, the sword should hit the edge of the shield and be blocked but instead it goes straight through. I'm not talking about someone getting behind me.Ah well this rarely happens to me and when it does its cause I wasn't facing my opponent all the way so I usually think it's deserved. If its a bug then I'm sure it will be fixed and then still not a balance issue.
Hmmm... So there's no noob 2h spammers and stuff? Anyway, weird argument.No, just more noob swordnboards around because you won't have to manual block.
I'm positively sure that none of people who think that 1H+shield is OP never played that class.I played this class extensively and it is now more powerful then it has ever been. I think it's op in some ways, and up in others.
#1. Do you agree with my stance that 1hs can finally attack and counter attack effectively? Meaning our attack speed and damage is not greatly lacking?Speed:
#2. Do you agree with my stance that for all practical purposes holding RMB makes 1hs invulnerable to most standard attacks? (discounting the weird shield glitch spawny brought up)
Look at the poll most people think shields are fine as isThis should tell you something imo.
I for one would rather have a slightly less durable high tier shield that is faster/less encumbering would you agree to the same?I do agree, which is why I use the heater shield or elite cav shield. Those are exactly what you are asking for. High tier shield that is less durable (more than slightly) and are faster/less encumbering. There's also the knightly heater shield and knightly kite shield for this purpose as well. Problem is, you'll get shot by ranged weapons in either the foot or head alot unlike the bigger huscarl shield, which I suspect, along with it's durability, is why the majority of people use it. If you want a shield that fits the role you are asking for, do what I do (and a few other players) and go for one of the high tier shields that fulfils the role you're looking for. If anything buff the speed of those types of shield a bit more and you might see more fighters going for them instead of huscarls, which will get left to the turtlers.
1her damage is poop? Yeah, sure.... 1h weapons 2hit me more than any other weapon type.Yeah, 1her damage is the lowest of melee weapon types on average. Math.
And actually, 60% of the people who voted think shields /aren't/ fine as is.
When you have weapons like side sword or scimitar 1hers are NOT slow unless you have low agility.Already mentioned that the only 1hers really being used are the insanely fast ones like the side sword. The reason for this is that shields slow your 1hers down so much that any 1her with a high speed and decent damage is optimal. Sadly it also means a large lack of variety on the field.
Also if shields were so underpowered why more then half of every team is filled with people with shields many of them using a huscarl?
True, though the 2nd option (minor balancing) is pretty vague. I myself voted for that option because I believe the speed rating of other shields should be buffed to give them a proper place in the inter-shield heirarchy. There's no desire for a nerf in that vote, but at first glance it probably looks that way due to the ambiguous wording of that poll option.
Simple answers please Gorath!Those were simple answers. If you mean just straight yes or no's then I will oblige.
#1. Meaning our attack speed and damage is not greatly lacking?No. I disagree. Speed and damage overall are lacking compared to non-shielders.
#2. Do you agree with my stance that for all practical purposes holding RMB makes...Yup. It does. It should.
On average mayhaps, Gorath. But just about everyone uses the high tier ones which aren't lacking in damage at all, quite the contrary.
Your "top tier" shields you referred to me are actually middle tier shields. They break quite easily and still slow you down quite a bit. these are fine imo. (maybe less encumbering and more speed would be nice.)Ok then, use the bucklers which are price-wise higher tier than the huscarl. Faster, less encumbering, less durable, less protective.
However the Huscarl/Heavy round shield out preforms them in every way. Would you please clarify your answer's to me questions?No, not every way. They're both slower, and heavier. The heavy round shield is even lower on the shield tier hierarchy than the shields I brought up.
True, though the 2nd option (minor balancing) is pretty vague. There's no desire for a nerf in that vote, but at first glance it probably looks that way due to the ambiguous wording of that poll option.
Ok top tier damage comparison
Side sword:
swing damage 32, cut
thrust damage 26 pierce
Flamberge:
swing damage 48, cutthrust damage 24 pierce
Elegant Poleaxe:
swing damage 39, cut
thrust damage 26 piercebonus vs shields
1her damage is the lowest, which is what I said. The pierce is decent on the 1her, I will give it that.
No. I disagree. Speed and damage overall are lacking compared to non-shielders.Your avoiding the essence of the questions Gorath! We are not comparing to non-shielders but instead trying to measure shielders as they are.
Yup. It does. It should.
I agree with this. Your poll doesn't fit properly into this thread and is misleading. I voted 2, because I feel lower tier shields should be buffed, but I don't feel like the huscarl needs a nerf.Read my post on this if you disagree after that then maybe I can edit it to your liking.
In the future, if you make a poll to support your point, make it clear and concise, such as:
Do you feel like the huscarl shield should get a nerf?
a. Yes
b. No
Your avoiding the essence of the questions Gorath! We are not comparing to non-shielders but instead trying to measure shielders as they are.I'm not avoiding anything. If you're not talking about shielders vs non-shielders then there is no issue whatsoever as shielders vs shielders are equal in all regards. lol
#1. Is 1hs speed such as that we can not attack after being attacked? meaning are all 1handers due to die to spam? Or can we block and attack pretty much all the time?
All of these are essentially the same question so feel free to answer one meaning all.
#2. is the damage as such that upon landing a hit we 1hs have trouble killing all but the unarmored? or can we pretty effectively get kills? Voiding all situational events meaning if we hit enough (within reason) they will die?
You compare swing damage of a 1h vs weapons that use boths hands... 32 cut damage is the same for a 2h as a 1h. Therefore all weapons that use both hands have higher ratings to compenate for a shield.That's irrelevant to what I said. I said 1hers have the lowest damage of melee weapons on average, which is true. That's compared to 2hers and polearms. This is important because part of the argument brought up was "Shields need a nerf, they're too durable and 1hers should be forced into manual blocking!". Well if that's true then why would 1hers ever be used since they have the lowest damage and range? The whole point, besides showing off, is to use a 1her and shield. Removing the shield and saying 1hers should be forced to fight without one would mean 1hers themselves would need to be buffed quite a bit to make them more fairly balanced vs 2hers and polearms overall.
To all those that are "comparing" these different weapon types and editing out the other balancing facors, those weapons aren't similar and aren't supposed to balance in specific relation to each other. So please stop distorting values and lets get back on topic. If gorath wants he can make a buff 1h damage/speed thread himself.Same as above, this is a major factor of the topic. Huscarl is the most attractive shield overall, yes. However it's not because it needs a nerf, it's that other shields need a buff of some fashion in order to appeal to different combat styles/situations. Ignoring 1her/shield relations and balance amongst and compared to 2hers and polearm users is ignoring a HUGE part of "class" balance and will only lead to overnerfing a playstyle that already fights to remain competetive.
Gorath I hope you will still answer my questions, I want to have a intellectual dialogue and who knows maybe you'll change my mind or me yours :D
Some stats taken from out the game, not the site, seem to say that round shields are in fact larger on both width and height:
Elite Cav - size 66 (*66 I assume)
Knightly Heater - 44*62
Unless I'm missing something here the round one is simply superior, since all stats are equal (and price is lower). Except durability which would also work in favour of round presumably.
Round shield - 78
Heavy Kite - 44*72
If that continues - and unless the -3 speed on heavy round makes a significant difference - the rounds are plainly superior in all tiers. Large round also has a even higher tier (huscarl) and small round a cheaper tier (plain cav). So imo there has to be a rebalance inside shield class.
I'm not avoiding anything. If you're not talking about shielders vs non-shielders then there is no issue whatsoever as shielders vs shielders are equal in all regards. lolYour going to need to work with me by keeping the answers simple!
Alright your not avoiding but a simple answer to my questions would be nice
The problem is that your questions are completely situational and apply to everything. I can answer yes to both. Given ideal circumstances absolutely 1hers can attack and block and attack and block. Given enough hits (7 on guys in plate like goretooth, using overheads with my military cleaver) 1hers can kill anyone.
7 is not extravgant so I'll take this as yes to #2
I can also say this about the club, torch, pitchfork and all wooden practice weapons as well. Except for the dagger, since it has no block.
within reason
You have to make up your mind whether you're talking about an internal item balance, or whether you're talking about balance as it relates to the game as a whole (which is going to mean shielders vs non-shielders).
We are not comparing anything. We are not measuring shielders v shielders or shielders v PA or shielders v anything Just 1handers ability as is
I have answered your questions like 3 times now. Just because you either don't like, or don't understand the answers doesn't mean I haven't answered them. :mrgreen:The additional questions were quite needed, to clear up any misunderstanding we had. I hope you don't mind in the regard that its all in the quest for knowledge.
The additional questions were quite needed, to clear up any misunderstanding we had. I hope you don't mind in the regard that its all in the quest for knowledge.
and additional question are going to be asked would you liek to continue answering them quite simply? or we can just end this discussion its all up to you Gorath.
I ... say NERF HUSCARL (and by effect the heavy round shield)!!!!
Nope, don't mind at all. Fire away and I'll answer as simply as I can given I don't believe in such a thing as black and white answers without paying attention to all of the situation modifiers relevant to the question at hand. Otherwise I'd end up giving such blanket statements as "Yes" to such things as "Do you endorse killing people and find it morally acceptable" :wink:And I thank you for it Gorath! You'll only have to endure a little longer as my line of questioning is short. Forgive the time on thsi responce as it has to be phrased just right to avoid the addition of more questions and therefore further subjecting you to this mindless dribble.
Noble Crassius your attempt to emulate Socratic elenchus fails. Asking Gorath to answer questions "more simply" is essentially asking him to ignore subtlety. Asking him questions while mildly stating "that its all in the quest for knowledge" is a half-truthOh not at all! you see inside a wall of text is the ability to dilute your argument and fill it with half truths and exaggerations (even I am guilty of this) I simply want a simple answer to my simple questions instead of all these grand gestures that are only designed to convince a mass of mindless cohorts. We here are not mindless cohorts and after all, and what could be the harm in demanding simple yes or no answers?
We here are not mindless cohorts
#3. Any class in any game that has high attack AND high defense with minor to no drawbacks is imbalanced? (I think we can but that doesn't relate to this discussion it's just a base question)Sure.
#4. The shielder now as the ability to attack effectively AND still keeps its perfect defense albiet with drawbacksNo.
Gorath, the thing is I'm not really feeling the speed difference between with knightly kite shield and without either.That's actually where shields make 1hers slower. It's on the raising (or is it lowering? One of those, I always forget which) of the shield, not in the actual attack animation. So it affects your feinting and ability to counterattack / stop an attack to emergency block speeds.
Where does it happen? The only thing where I really felt slower is with fake feints (i.e. switching attack direction without actually swinging) but I may be imagining it.
So making the noticeable faster may not even be an option, but the huscarl can be made slower.This is also a more balanced idea imo than reducing HP/durability.
If you mean that it can trade off, then sure.
Exactly what I meant and you know it.
Stop here if you really can't stand anything but yes or no's:
I prefer you to explain your answers don't get me wrong just a summary would do a speech is not necessary.
Here's the rub though, because I believe I know where you're going with #3: Shielders do not have a high attack. In fact comparitively speaking, they have a low or baseline attack. Also the level of their defense is in question given two factors:
1) Shields break (granted some take a while, others not as much) while weapons and armor do not. Good defense for a limited time vs standard defense all the time.
2) Shields (other than specific uber large shields such as the dreaded Huscarl) do not grant immunity to ranged, only a solid defense against it. This was a good change, one I supported forever and will support. I now headshot or foot-kill many shielders (not using a huscarl) quite consistantly with my x-bow (previously throwing too before I dropped it for x-bow yet again on the last toon that used throwing). The requirement for aiming a shield at the attack being recieved is also a welcome addition rather than forcefields as it adds back a level of skill in shield use that was lacking beforehand.
#1 after their shield breaks the defense simply drops to on par with that of a 2h/pa its not an handicap that it breaks it SHOULD break and faster than it does!
If I may pose my own question:You may it's quite encouraged actually The biggest issue with round shields is that they are by and large the best choice for a shield in every area correct? Speed, durability, coverage, etc. No, my biggest issue is with high tier shields that are practically unbreakable unless you have an axe on you at the time. board and steel have MAJOR draw backs and maybe only a need a slight reduction but the huscarls weight nine is only slightly annoying. Which is why it overly used. But I have to say YES the round shield line is the best choice for shielders atm and shield variety needs to be introduced but our methods differ. I want to NERF the overly used shields and you want to BUFF other shields to its level.
edited out the fluff hope you don't mind
If you really want to get into shields being an "Ez mode" blocking system then by all means I'm willing to discuss ways to change it that will make it more skill-based, though in doing so the general power of shielders in melee combat is going to increase from a systems change to more acurately reflect the combat ability of sword and board combat. Currently it's slow, clunky and lacks offensive the offensive tools it's capable of. However to make it better would require some pretty sweeping changes to the combat system itself. Currently we have an approximation of combat.
Tell me more you perked my interest. If you simply want to make it more realistic I have to say this probably won't happen unless chadz implements his thingymajig but then we'll have a whole new game and this discussion won't even matter.
in this era of CRPG "ithrowshitatyou" nerfing shields would be a terrible idea , i wished tho that they made a better balance of the shields without nerfing them... :(
i use to like the fur covered shield lots of hp but width is so awful you get shot all the time
Any weapon with "bonus against shields" will utterly destroy any shield in a few blows, had the plate covered round shield smashed to bits by one swing of a bardiche once.That shield has to be a joke it's the most pointless pos ever. and yes axes destroy shields its what they do.
You can't just buff shields across the board and be done with, to increase speed or to reduce weight were going to have to give on something. Making shields SLOWER is the opposite of what we should do! or it seems that people prefer turtles over warriors...humph well played crpg community you made a cynic more cynical today. Leave it to shielders to be the most conservative force out there. Turning a blind eye to the obvious fact that OUR ATTACK SPEEDS ARE ON PAR WITH EVERY OTHER CLASS AND OUR DEFENSE GREATER THAN ANY OTHER CLASS. The game trys to balance it out by making us slow as shit but I don't want to run slow as shit, or feint slow as shit. but if you turtles are happy with that meh keep your class. I wash my hands of calling you people brothers.
That's actually where shields make 1hers slower. It's on the raising (or is it lowering? One of those, I always forget which) of the shield, not in the actual attack animation. So it affects your feinting and ability to counterattack / stop an attack to emergency block speeds.
This is also a more balanced idea imo than reducing HP/durability.
Turning a blind eye to the obvious fact that OUR ATTACK SPEEDS ARE ON PAR WITH EVERY OTHER CLASS AND OUR DEFENSE GREATER THAN ANY OTHER CLASS.
#1 after their shield breaks the defense simply drops to on par with that of a 2h/pa its not an handicap that it breaks it SHOULD break and faster than it does!It absolutely is a handicap. Once it's broken and the 1her is manual blocking without a shield he is disadvantaged vs 2hers and polearms in range, damage and unless using a very select few swords even speed (especially when factoring in weapon stun from weight differences).
Making shields SLOWER is the opposite of what we should do! or it seems that people prefer turtles over warriors...humph well played crpg community you made a cynic more cynical today. Leave it to shielders to be the most conservative force out there. Turning a blind eye to the obvious fact that OUR ATTACK SPEEDS ARE ON PAR WITH EVERY OTHER CLASS AND OUR DEFENSE GREATER THAN ANY OTHER CLASS. The game trys to balance it out by making us slow as shit but I don't want to run slow as shit, or feint slow as shit. but if you turtles are happy with that meh keep your class. I wash my hands of calling you people brothers.You're calling for a nerf of the huscarl shield, and the round shield line in general. We are saying that we think an HP nerf is the wrong way to go about it and that we would rather the speed of those shields be nerfed IF ANYTHING. Most of us don't think they need a nerf at all. You say you don't want to run slow as shit, or feint slow as shit, and I STILL say: Use a different shield. There are faster shields in the line. The problem is that they don't feel noticably faster which is where the problem lies. So I say improve the speed of the other shields (kite, heaters). This gives a more noticable effect of using those shields opposed to the de-facto huscarl (or other round shields). Hell, use the elite cav shield. It's got decent durability and it's 100 speed with less weight. You won't run as slow, and you won't feint as slow (supposedly, this is where the feel of the shield belies it's stats as it doesn't feel much faster than the huscarl at all imo).
If only you people could move past the nerf aspect :rolleyes: I tried working with you by suggesting lower encumbrance and raising speed (You all want it you said so) but apparently your nto willing to sacrifice HP for it? so it comes down to : most 1handers want a buff to their class :rolleyes: whats newYou're suggesting a nerf to a weapon class that doesn't really need one. You're also refusing to use anything but the round shields or huscarl by saying the other shields suck in comparison. Given that opinion, which most of us share, I/we suggest buffing the other shields in some area to give a better choice of shields based upon what you want in your shield. The huscarl is a turtle shield (or it's supposed to be), that's it's function and design. A fighting shield should be one of the smaller heater shields or kite shields. So make those more attractive for that role than they are.
People who would otherwise be mediocre at best can top the scoreboards with awesome KDRs if they just equip some heavy armor and a decent 1her.
Such BS, it's five time easier to do with a polearm then 1h+shield.
Anyway. What's your problem with seeing more different shields on the field so it doesn't look like huscarl huscarl huscarl huscarl knightly heather huscarl huscarl huscarl?
Lol vicious. Does everyone play with the top reach weapons? Have you actually tried to play with Flamberge? Reach isn't an issue, even WITHOUT a shield. You can block once and then facehug. With a shield, you don't even need to block correctly.
And damage, again, does everyone use a flamberge? No.
Animation issue? You don't know what you're talking about, frankly. 1h has superior animations, both because they are harder to read and because they hit faster.
German greatsword has 123 reach, not 140. Curved weapons have phantom reach.
And no, you're not a good player if you die to a mediocre 2h, because he has to block manually and due to him being mediocre, he's not very good at that.
i not die vs a mediocre spammer, it takes me anyway more skill than him to kill him, becouse i need to aim perfectly on his dead moments, while he only do click click click click click click.
a mediocr 1hander on other side, have no chance vs a mediocre 2hander cause all this advantage i already mentioned.
and you are wrong about animations. everybody know 2h-pole have better animation than 1h, dont be ridiculous you have 140 reach with your stupid lolstab and expecial you XANT you abuse it a lot. at levels that majority of ppl i see approch you wait you on low guard
Shields:
+ make it easier to defend one's front
+ stop arrows, throwing weapons, and most bolts coming from certain directions
+ a sense of confidence
- require shield skill points
- cost money
- are heavy
- break, making them useful for a limited time in each battle
-- a breaking shield can momentarily stun the one holding it
-- once the shield is broken, the player is most often left with a one-handed weapon - a relative handicap in most hand-to-hand situations
- limit the player to only attacking with one handed weapons, stabbing spears, and throwing weapons
-- one handed weapons are shorter, do less damage, and are often slower than their statistical attack speed because of the shield
They're not overpowered or underpowered. They're just a reliable choice for any player who wants to invest in their benefits, that's all. I originally switched to a sword and board because I got sick of Kesh turning me into a pin cushion pre-patch.
Dunno about you, but on my shielder at level 15 I couldn't get spammed by 2hers. You just need to use footwork to counter spamming and then suddenly, voila, they can't spam anymore.
All the advantages you mentioned but which aren't true.
The only animation that 2h swords have that's superior to 1h is the stab, and even that was nerfed by the devs. You got any proof to show that the 2h stab has 140 reach?
Upkeep doesn't matter, making gold is too easy.
LEVEL 15 AND YOU TALK°?
cmon be realistic
make a 31+ than talk , at lev 15 you have what 9 dex? 12 stR?
and yes i proofed the lolstab with a friend on duel server
we have taken a 140 long weapon stepped away at his reach limit
than a german lolstab sword, who in theory have 125, where able to ding my shield at same distance of the pole 140 reach , so lolstab gain a good +15 cm
... Dude, that's the whole point. If I can't be spammed even at level 15, how could I be spammed at level 31? :?
xant you in my clan
but dont lie, i play 1h since we where 30 in this fucking mod.
and mathematics is not opinion
a 1 hander 18 str 18 agi with 6 athletics and a huscarl with 81 speed, cant outmanouver and exit from a spam vs a 18 18 lev 31 2 hander with same athletics and no speed malus.
IS MATHEMATIC.
if happens is becouse
a ) one of the 2 player is clearly more skilled
2) a jump or a ground that is not plain that can make someone gain more distance by climbing or descending .
Vicious, saying it's mathematic does not prove it. And it's false, doesn't matter how high your opponent's agi is, if you have 18 agi yourself, you can't be spammed.
dont reverse the discussion from another point.,
i can break the enemy spam even with a 50 speed weapon becouse there is always dead timing.
i cant block him from spam me, becouse i cant avoid him spamming me, becouse i cant disengage cause he is faster and if he chose to stick to me, i cant do shit about, where you or a pole, if find that 1hander is to difficoult to kill, you can go away, or play all by abuse of lostab+footwork.
1hander will never ever have the advantage to chose to disengage, unless is a fucking moron 30 agi 9 str, with 10 athletics and 50 hp who you one shoot at his first error, while he need 5-6 hit with powerstrike 3 for kll you
How is it easier? How /can/ it be easier? Answer: It isn't, and it can't be, you don't have RMB of invincibility.
Wut? I'm only replying to you, how is that "reversing" the discussion?
You can, you know, kill the spammer instead of running away. Or if you feel so inclined, drop your shield to run away faster.
Why would you need to disengage?
YourLord, that's actually a good suggestion. Wrong block direction, more damage to shields. Still easier and your shield won't break immediately, but it's not AS easy.
you sound retarted you now?
i can say same to you if you have so much problem vs shield BUY A HAMMER. or drop your weapon and fly away.
sure so add also to shielder manual block, but give us your same dmg speed animation and reach, becouse block with a weapon or a shield manually what difference make? except that shield broke and your weapon not?
listen yourself
Meh, I don't know, I'm an average blocker and I do much better with 2h/polearms then a 1h. It's just easier/less annoying to fight (sure, harder to block but whatever, holding RMB isn't what kills people), with a 1h the average spammer vulgaris can sometimes kill me, witha polearm he's dead in one hit if he doesn't care about blocking.
I just find it easier personally, maybe I don't get how to properly fight with a 1h.
Being able to spell "retarded" correctly would sure help your case of accusing other people of sounding.. "retarted"
What, buy a hammer? How is that similar in any way?
You should try learning manual blocking Vicious, it can actually be quite fun! And the suggestion is just 25% more damage to your shield, not that you get hit like you would if you failed a block otherwise.
of course you do, cause all advantage i mentioned
average player with 2h > average 1hander, period , thats why top 1hander in this fucking mod are all same 5 guy, where 2hander/pole top player are 9904564645967457609457.
i not one shoot xant so when we play and i do
30:5
and you do 30:5
i landed from 3x to 4x more hits than you., a 1hander for be step to step to a 2hander on term to kills need to play like a guy under cocaine.
an axe one shoot some shield. 3-4 shoot a huscarl
so how much faster you wanna destroy it? one shoot + dmg on the guy behind?
Except I don't 1 hit anyone, 3 hits is the norm. And you don't need to do the hardest and best part of the game, manual block.
Or you could just block the axe hits correctly?
Their durability isn't what bothers me, it's the fact that someone with a huscarl round shield can be facing almost entirely in other direction and still block hits with it.
Can't count how many times I've died after swinging at a huscarl shield user's back and having the hit deflect.
and get stunned and kille by one shoot on next swing cause his 50+ dmg?
Then learn to play?
if you have to whine vs 1hander user with all your advantage probably its you that need to learn to play
if you have to whine vs 1hander user with all your advantage probably its you that need to learn to play
if you have to whine vs 1hander user with all your advantage probably its you that need to learn to play
at difference of you i bring mathematics that is not an opinion.
at difference of you i not whiteknight my class, as uberskilled,
at difference of you i am objective, becouse you wanna remove onyl advantage of shielder when you have 4038608340 advantage, and this is patethic.
at difference of you i am not a huscarl user, so i am not defending my style of play
at difference of you, i can recon sometim OP, like your abused lolstab xant, or like steel pick 1hander user, (i tryed one yesterday and one shoot ppl or double shoot ppl with a 1hand weapon 102 speed is RETARDED )
like is retarded hear str abuser+triple loomed baremace say that oneshoot ppl true a plate+shield, is skill.
Make a 2her, I'll duel you with my 1her. :)
Or make any class at all, I'll duel you and show you how it's done.
sure i make a str abuser 110 hp, with a 3x loomed baremace so you need from 5 to 8 hits for kill me while i need only 1 single crush on you, and you die instakilled
You didn't bring any mathematics, foo' :lol:
All you did was invoke the holy name of mathematics, which doesn't automatically make the Great Mathematics god side with you, unfortunately.
You are objective because you are a shielder arguing for shields not to be nerfed? :D
Lolstab is OP? Try it yourself. :)
if you cant make 1+1 you have issue
105 reach at my home is inferior to 125-155
40 dmg is inferior to your avarage 45-50 +
and i continue like that on every other things i mentioned, dont embarass yourself
Mention weapon names. How often they're used. What disadvantages they have.
Dude. If you meet two Side-sword spammers with huscarl shields, you can't do anything. Even against one, if you miss a block, a hit can take about 90%!! health instantly. That's a bit absurd man.
most used 1h
100-105 reach nordic-knight-eslavona 30-36 dmg upkeep 9-10k + shield another 6-10k
most used 2h.
124-125 reach. +15 on lolstab danish/german 40-43 dmg. upkeep 11-12k
except advantage to use a shield 1hander have no advantage in term of speed, reach dmg, cost of 2handers
And speed is a huge factor. And 1h gets a lot better animations.
nope.
is since beta that chadz talk about better 2h animation. who you try to fool here?
Well, I wouldn't expect you to know what you're talking about... you can't duel, after all.
you where dieng vs me when i was level 22. with 0 athletics, 4 powestrike, and i not have your lolstab 140 cm and at difference of you i not joined merc by suckcoking someone :)
Lulz, sure I were. Pics or it didn't happen.
Also, try coming up with your own insults, stealing Jambi's isn't very polite.
why? becouse is true.
have a nice day, i have done with you
this 3d is the most idiotic things i ever saw in my life
basicly you wanna nerf the only things that give a + to be 1 hander, a shield
1hander plus:
survivability thx to shield defence vs cut user/arro/ throw (even if a bardiche x3 loomed destroy a huscarl in 3-4 hit, and 2 throwing lance destroy even a steel shield )
ability to fight multiple opponents, with less skill than a 2hander (no need to manual block different attacks from different direction)
so we have +2 good things vs 8 negative
1hander negative:
speed/movement even at same atheletics thx to shield we move slower.
reach top reach 105, vs what 155 2h, and what 190+ pole?
dmg top dmg probably is a broadaxe 3x loomed, 40 dmg, vs what , 50? 55? 60 ?
animation issue (a fucking 85 2h speed is faster than a 100 1h speed+shield )
invisibile reach (yes xant we not have 140 reach like your german/danish sword lolstab abuse )
no furter bonus from our skill = like pole who stun with everything
less wpf cause by more weight
upkeep (our upkeep 1h+shield is 60-70% more than 2hander/pole upkeep, example? eslavona+huscarl is 17k, danish sword? 11-12k )
a mediocre 1h die to first 2hander who oneshoot him /feints.
on other side even a mediocre 2hander who spam, can kill good player, cause reach+speed+dmg+animation+movement +invisibile reach advantage
*Nerf 1h speed a bit though, some weapons are ridiculously fast, even with a shield, and if I manage to break it, good lord. A sidesword becomes an 1h katana, with uber damage.*
Everyone who wants to seriously fight with sword (or any other 1h) and shield must go for the Huscarl shield or they get their shield smashed. There it is. This problem has got worse lately as there are more axes about than there used to be before the patch. With, for instance, an elite cavalry shield I (BadbCatha) have to run away if I see someone with a two handed axe, because it'll be bash, bash, and I have no shield. With no shield, I have a shorter weapon which does less damage and am most certainly at a big disadvantage, not to mention the fact that smashing a shield will itself cause stun. My only option, even though I don't really like it, is to use a Huscarl. The non-round shields not only tend to break easily, but they also have worse coverage against missiles - multiply height and width to see this is demonstrably true. Even the Heavy Board Shield, which should be the ultimate anti-arrow wall, has a total area of 1680, slightly less than the Huscarl's 1849.
Everyone who wants to seriously fight with sword (or any other 1h) and shield must go for the Huscarl shield or they get their shield smashed. There it is. This problem has got worse lately as there are more axes about than there used to be before the patch. With, for instance, an elite cavalry shield I (BadbCatha) have to run away if I see someone with a two handed axe, because it'll be bash, bash, and I have no shield. With no shield, I have a shorter weapon which does less damage and am most certainly at a big disadvantage, not to mention the fact that smashing a shield will itself cause stun. My only option, even though I don't really like it, is to use a Huscarl. The non-round shields not only tend to break easily, but they also have worse coverage against missiles - multiply height and width to see this is demonstrably true. Even the Heavy Board Shield, which should be the ultimate anti-arrow wall, has a total area of 1680, slightly less than the Huscarl's 1849.
Anyway, shields need a buff. Huscarl is the only shield worth taking except for matters of style.
So if there is 1 OP item, the logical thing to do is buff all others? :lol:
Heavier shields.
Wouldn't really change everyone from using the huscarl if shields in general were just heavier. It'd still be the only decent one in the list. Though it would help counter the crush through from the bar mace, so maybe not a bad idea. :D
Heavier shields.
Or put your shield away, kill the most likely noob spammer, and move on. Just because you play a sword and boarder doesn't mean you never have to manual block.So since you're convinced that a weapon's length and damage have little impact on the fight, I take it you always fight with a practice sword?
My avatar looks like shit if you ask me.
So since you're convinced that a weapon's length and damage have little impact on the fight, I take it you always fight with a practice sword?
I see, so you think I'd be better fighting with a one handed weapon and no shield than with the same weapon with a shield? Nurse!
No you aren't.
But against an axe (read - weapon that is shorter or slower than a 1h in many cases) you are better served to put your shield away and conserve it for another fight.
Long Axe speed 93, length 115; Long War Axe speed 92 length 123; Great Long Axe speed 92, length 125. I'm not seeing the short, clumsy weapons you are.
Count the -20-22 length because of the Polearm Grip.Allegedly. Also count the massive stun from trying to parry the axe with your Weight 1 sword.
Allegedly. Also count the massive stun from trying to parry the axe with your Weight 1 sword.
Count the -20-22 length because of the Polearm Grip.
on my 1hr i often run around with no shield, stun is gone if you just block two in a row, its not hard at all.But can you see how the first blow's stun may prevent you from blocking two in a row because you're already dead?
But can you see how the first blow's stun may prevent you from blocking two in a row because you're already dead?
Not really, since stun doesn't have any affect on blocking. Just block left.Oh yeah. Sorry.
Ok I'm too tired to go into depth maybe i'll waste my time doing it tommorrow but if anything sword and board needs a buff
To be continued
Really? Post-patch every single class except 1h+shield was nerfed, you got a speed buff.
If you want to point fingers at the people who DIDN'T get nerfed, look at polearms.
Exactly. Nerf throwing which is ridiculously OP atm and you'll see less shielders on the battlefield. Personally I would adjust prices of all ranged weapons so that the most expensive (best) ranged weapon costs around 20k (bows and xbows with ammo and throwing lances without). I would make it like this:
Basic ranged weapon (hunting xbow, hunting bow and stones): 2k
Also I would nerf those weapons (25 pierce for HXBOW, 12 cut for HBOW and 9 blunt for stones)
Higher ranked weapons I wouldn't touch stat wise but since they are much better than starter ranged gear prices will start at 8k for short bow, light xbow and darts
Higher class of ranged weapons would cost 12k (Nomad bow, xbow, francisca, war darts)
Next class would cost 15k (Khergit bow, Heavy Xbow, Javelins, Heavy Throwing Axes)
Best ranged weapons would cost 20k (Warbow/Longbow, Sniper Xbow, Jarids, Throwing Lances)
That's much better way to balance ranged than silly idea to remove crosshair. If you want to be bad ass thrower who one hits everything with his Throwing Lance you would have to pay 80k for set of 4 stacks which means you wouldn't be able to use such gear every round. Same is with armored horses, dunno why ridiculous throwing weapons get a discount.
Exactly. Nerf throwing which is ridiculously OP atm and you'll see less shielders on the battlefield. Personally I would adjust prices of all ranged weapons so that the most expensive (best) ranged weapon costs around 20k (bows and xbows with ammo and throwing lances without). I would make it like this:
Basic ranged weapon (hunting xbow, hunting bow and stones): 2k
Also I would nerf those weapons (25 pierce for HXBOW, 12 cut for HBOW and 9 blunt for stones)
Higher ranked weapons I wouldn't touch stat wise but since they are much better than starter ranged gear prices will start at 8k for short bow, light xbow and darts
Higher class of ranged weapons would cost 12k (Nomad bow, xbow, francisca, war darts)
Next class would cost 15k (Khergit bow, Heavy Xbow, Javelins, Heavy Throwing Axes)
Best ranged weapons would cost 20k (Warbow/Longbow, Sniper Xbow, Jarids, Throwing Lances)
That's much better way to balance ranged than silly idea to remove crosshair. If you want to be bad ass thrower who one hits everything with his Throwing Lance you would have to pay 80k for set of 4 stacks which means you wouldn't be able to use such gear every round. Same is with armored horses, dunno why ridiculous throwing weapons get a discount.
Looking at the little "how they died" icons during the game, I can't say I notice a great many more deaths from thrown spears or axes than there were before the patch. Throwing is scary for a while but most people only have eight or at most 12 ammo, so it's soon over. Better throwing spammers than the pre-patch situation of all the infantry having to hide for the first minute until the archery spam finished...
Pretty good all in all untill i saw 1 tiny little thing.
....YOU WANT STONES TO COST 2K???! YOUMAD????
Lol Stones should be nerfed a little bit and remain as beginners equipment.
There isn't such thing as archer peasant
What about hunters?
A peasant is an agricultural worker who generally owns or rents only a small plot of ground.
wah wah waaah
I'm a pathetic thrower because I suck at everything else.
Couldn't agree more :D
Strength 18
Agility 18
Weapon proficiency
Available points: 0
One Handed 140
Two Handed 1
Polearm 86
Archery 1
Crossbow 1
Throwing 2
Skills
Available points: 0
Ironflesh 0
Power Strike 5
Shield 6
Athletics 6
Riding 6
Horse Archery 0
Power Draw 0
Power Throw 0
Weapon master 6
First and foremost Huscarl shield need to be nerfed.
Now it's widest, best protecting in idle, one of the most resilient and offering decent enough speed.
I feel it should get a nerf a bit in resilience (reduce it's armor value) and a bit in speed (and other shield need a buff).
Nothing wrong with the Huscarl. If you're trying to break the shield instead of killing the guy behind it, you're doing it wrong.
Except you can't kill the guy behind it before the shield breaks if he's playing defensive.
Not necessarily. Some possibilities:
1) If you play a shielder against his teammates they may team-strike him
2) If you play a shielder against your teammates you or they will likely strike him
3) if you're fast you can strike a shielder's back/side
4) kick and slash a defensive shielder
5) call over horses to bump/trample a troublesome shielder
Yes, if the shielder is a total nub. 3 and 4 especially require the shielder to suck some donkey balls.
6) Crushthrough defensive shielder
7) Break shield faster with axe/throwing weapons
8) Double team defensive shielder to get behind him for attack
Striking the back of a shielder is a context-dependent trick. Sometimes I've backpedalled to make my enemy think he has friends behind him but when he turns I use my abnormal athletics to knock him down. Kicking is also context-dependent since it's so uncommon that many skilled shielders don't anticipate it unless you're being really obvious about it. The best kicks, though, are when you time it right so as to kick them while they're running sideways. It often throws both the character and the player behind it a little off balance.
Wow, reading my comments makes it sound like I'm a really deceitful player :(
Striking the back dont work against round shields.
Huscarl needs to lose a few HP, imo. It's ubiquitous and there are very few high-end shields that are a good alternative.
Or just add more high-end shields.
Huscarl needs to lose a few HP, imo. It's ubiquitous and there are very few high-end shields that are a good alternative.
Or just add more high-end shields.
>> Yes it does. I've a few kills to prove it.
>> They must have been new, it doesn't work against GOOD players with round shields
>> So good players are hard to kill. Got it.
All the high-end shields except for the huscarl are pretty terrible. I mean, why would anyone use the buckler unless they like the look? It's expensive, tiny and breaks in two hits from an axe.
All the high-end shields except for the huscarl are pretty terrible. I mean, why would anyone use the buckler unless they like the look? It's expensive, tiny and breaks in two hits from an axe.
I use the knightly heater shield sometimes. Smaller radius and less health but better against axes and significantly faster. I'm not an exceptionally good player but on the very rare occasion that I kill a very good player (ManofWar, Harmless Peasant, etc.) I'm generally using the knightly heater shield. The speed of the huscarl is slow enough that you can almost always predict the attacks of those using it, while the knightly heater shield leaves a little more up to the imagination.
It's actually worse against axes, and it's not much faster.
So it's a dueling shield, but bad for the battlefield, but that makes sense actually.
Really? My understanding was that armour had a significant effect upon the damage that axes do, but that's mostly just hearsay. As for speed I find it noticeable - enough that, with 6 shield skill, I can block comfortably on reflexes rather than considered tactics.
The hit points are so low it will literally be destroyed by anything. Why should the plate covered round shield not be the same as a round shield HP wise? Isn't it the same shield just covered by plate? This is one of the shields most needing a buff. It literally does nothing good.
Really? My understanding was that armour had a significant effect upon the damage that axes do, but that's mostly just hearsay. As for speed I find it noticeable - enough that, with 6 shield skill, I can block comfortably on reflexes rather than considered tactics.
Really? My understanding was that armour had a significant effect upon the damage that axes do, but that's mostly just hearsay. As for speed I find it noticeable - enough that, with 6 shield skill, I can block comfortably on reflexes rather than considered tactics.
Agreed, the shield is so bad (and in addition to it being so bad, it weights a ton, costs quite a bit, and is slow as hell) in comparison with, well, any other shield. Waste of a good looking model.
One thing is clear Hp>Armour as far as shields go.
I'm thinking that axes bypass armor, and maybe the shield skill bonuses.
I base this on two facts
that every one is claiming 3-4 strikes with an axe for their shields to break. Which at shield skill 3,+ heavy round shield it was 3-4 strikes for me as well.
and
The plate covered round shield has such high armor and it still breaks in like one axe hit (two at most)
One thing is clear Hp>Armour as far as shields go.
i am sure if i open a 3d about nerf phantom reach of lolstab of his beloved german/danish, he will say IS OK
ppl should not argue with xant about balancement, he simply say imba or op to everything that is not his class/weapon , i am sure if i open a 3d about nerf phantom reach of lolstab of his beloved german/danish, he will say IS OK
look steel pick 3d
look cavalry 3d
look this 3d
he fight always for nerf what ne not use
also he never used personally all the above things, so is purely trolling
Phantom reach of 2h swords is largely removed due to the new stab animation.