Round Shields...(Nerf thread)

[WaltF4]

Even the board shield, which is visually goddamn large, has much less defacto coverage then a huscarl, with 28 width vs 43 width.

I need to do some more testing, but I am fairly certain that shield skill has a vastly greater impact on expanding vertical coverage than on expanding horizontal coverage. It also appears that the width of the shield is what determines the size of the arc in which it will block melee attacks. The vertical dimensions do not seem to play a roll in blocking melee attacks. In general, it seems that shield width is more important than shield height, and every non-buckler round shield is wider than every non-round shield.

If you don't turn fast enough, they can bypass your shield from the side and just swing through it. Something that does not happen with a plain right block when I put my shield away.

I have noticed this a lot since the patch. I would like to sling my shield and use my awlpike with two hands more often, since I feel more consistent when manually blocking. However, I will often be shot shortly after putting it away, so I usually don't.

[Murrogh]

I have tried using shields other than the huscarl. I usually swapped it out for the heater or cavalry. In a regular battle, I noticed a little difference due to shield speed but not enough to justify the drawbacks.

The most annoying thing with the small shields was their lack of ability to block arrows when they are not actively blocking. With a huscarl shield, all but the head and the bottom of the legs are protected while moving. The other shields leave a large portion of the legs and torso vulnerable. 

[Gorath]

I mean lets face it unless an axe is brought out our shields won't break to a single opponent, which basically = I win...Unless you know you fuck it up.

False.  Only the huscarl, plate shield, and heavy board shield are guaranteed to just "survive" for a long period of time while blocking.

A shield should just break to a single opponent?  Really?  What's the point of one then in the battle and siege servers then?  You're not dueling with them.  You're fighting 10, 20, 30 hell even 40 opponents sometimes.  But a shield should break to a single dude without an axe?  What kind of balance would that be?  Honestly they're fine.  They serve their purpose in battle.  Saying that the shield not breaking = I win is about as logical as me saying your 2h sword won't break from blocking = you win.... Unless you know, you fuck it up.  If shield HP is nerfed and especially nerfed to the point that they're only going to survive fighting one guy then there's 2 options:
Never play a shielder because the price, speed malus, combat efficiency decrease and skill investment of shields just aren't worth it.
Bring 1 weapon and 3 shields.

I think most people would just pick option 1.  Why?  You say you want to force them to manual block more.  If that's the case then why would anyone play a 1h/shielder instead of a 2her or polearm user where you get better animations, range, damage and cost efficiency?  Other than showing off what logical reason would there be for ever playing one instead of a 2her/polearm user?  None.  Honestly as it is, other than a preference in style there's not much reason to play a shielder instead of a 2h/polearm user but I'll refrain from ranting about it more.  Currently with the way shields are, except for the huscarl and heavy board shield, it's easier than ever to just shoot the guy behind the shield either in the head or the foot and bypassing that shield.  For the huscarlers/board users well they're taking a huge weight hit and upkeep hit along with skill point investment so they deserve to have defense unless outplayed.

Unless we really want to make it fair and put up a "parry" skill into c-rpg for 2hers and polearms to be able to block efficiently with speed and without their weapon breaking.  Personally as a 2her/polearm user I just don't have an issue with shields at all, and find them completely full of "meh".  I still have a character that uses a shield (brown heater or elite cav shield) and military cleaver but honestly I just don't see any point to him when I spent 6 points in shield and it still breaks every round just about while having shitty reach, slower speed, more upkeep and less damage than my 2her/pole characters.  I like the look, but it just performs under par compared to the other melee styles.  It is nice to advance while holding RMB vs all the throw spam, but after a few axes and lances the shield breaks anyways so I'm stuck fighting 1h/no shield which just makes me miss having range+damage+speed that I get from the non-1h lines.

You want to see less 1h/shielders in the game.  Said so yourself.  That sheds light on the nerf thread here.  Personally I'm glad to see shielders again.  God knows that pre-patch everyone was a 2her user with a spattering of polearms and a rare shielder here and there.  It's nice to see more shielders on the field that makes the game look more like a medieval battlefield instead of a bunch of dudes running around with random models on their lightsabers.

/wall of text

[LordBerenger]

I have a suggestion that might get me flamed at for.

People don't want to use axes to break shields right?

So why not just make Swords/Blunt weapons which will also have the shield break effect?

I don't know how archers would do but there's probably a solution for that too.

[EponiCo]

Lolwat?
No swiss army knives. It can be added to a clearly identifiable (*) sword with sucky stab, low speed, low reach and/or unbalanced tag like all the axes have. That pretty much leaves only the war cleaver if it's speed is reduced.
(*) Having to guess if that's a heavy bastard sword with shieldbreaking ability or a bastard with spamability isn't fair.

[Noble Crassius]

Would quote but damn Gorath that is a wall of text. you forgot some shields in that list of unbreakable’s but I'll over look that tiny detail. You see I don't want to nit pick on one part of a post that I disagree with I view the WHOLE picture. Alright I over exaggerated, I'll admit that for most shielders what I said is not the case  /agree. (but there is the potential for it to be true and you know this).

However what annoys me the most about you right now is how you completely ignore the rest of my points and post a wall against one tincy little sentence.

I offer an olive branch of sorts. Let us drop this Sophist dialouge trying to convince the masses and lets get down to the basics. I just want to ask you some questions so I know your stances and beliefs. Will you answer my questions?

[Gorath]

Would quote but damn Gorath that is a wall of text. you forgot some shields in that list of unbreakable’s but I'll over look that tiny detail. You see I don't want to nit pick on one part of a post that I disagree with I view the WHOLE picture. Alright I over exaggerated, I'll admit that for most shielders what I said is not the case  /agree. (but there is the potential for it to be true and you know this).

However what annoys me the most about you right now is how you completely ignore the rest of my points and post a wall against one tincy little sentence.

Just stream of conciousness writing.  I'm quite prone to random walls of text.

I offer an olive branch of sorts. Let us drop this Sophist dialouge trying to convince the masses and lets get down to the basics. I just want to ask you some questions so I know your stances and beliefs. Will you answer my questions?

No need for an olive branch, this isn't a fight.  Just a discussion.     And yep, I got no problem with answering any question.

[Leshma]

I'm positively sure that none of people who think that 1H+shield is OP never played that class.

[Formless]

How awesome would it be if 2 handers and polearms broke in combat.

[Gorath]

How awesome would it be if 2 handers and polearms broke in combat.

1hers too after blocking.  And disarms.  I mean shields break in combat, it only makes sense that realistically weapons would as well.  Pfft, block indefinately with no skill investment?  OP imo.
*I actually do think it'd be an interesting mechanic*

[Spawny]

Shields are not for duels (except buckler) you'll get owned by back peddle spam.
If you bring a buckler, you might aswell manual block. The thing is so tiny, you get hit by side swings if you don't turn into the incomming swing.

Plus duelist are usually top of the line players if you have to bring a shield to even stand a chance against them then this game type isn’t for you.
Where did I say I have to bring a shield to stand a chance against them? I'm an average manual blocker and I have more chance beating good duelists with my level 21 polearms guys than I have with my level 30 1h/shielder

Feinting with a shield is slower -> Easier to block. Especially with a huscarl shield. I changed to a knightly heater or elite cav shield for more speed and did a bit better.
I want to NERF the survivability of top teir shields and make them faster/less encumbering.
I agree with the last part. No clue why you would nerf the survivability of the top tier shields. It's what makes a top tier shield a top tier shield. Anyway, gorath made a nice post why nerfing survivability shouldn't happen.

This happens occasionally and is due to both of the players skilled involved. This is a personnel issue of yours and not readily acceptable as a balancing argument.
It's actually due to weird shield hitboxes. According to the animation and the model, the sword should hit the edge of the shield and be blocked but instead it goes straight through. I'm not talking about someone getting behind me.

On a battle or siege server, when I've fought a decent manual blocker and managed to kill him, more often than not my shield won't take another 2 hits before breaking. I've never seen a 2h sword break.
Should you be beating these good players so readily? I mean would you be able to beat them consistently with say a 2h? And just pick another one off the ground.
So just because I picked sword&board I'm not allowed to fight more than 1 battle vs an equal opponent? After that first battle, my only advantage of picking a 1h weapon (the shield) should be destroyed so I get to play with a range/damage penalty compared to 2h/polearms. Right. Makes sense. Main reason why I rolled a polearms guy and get kills easier about 10 levels earlier.

This is true only because most good players ditch the shield asap because it's viewed as EZ mode. people see 1handers as UP because it’s the goto choice for newbies and noobs alike but when a DECENT player stays with this build it becomes deadly.
Hmmm... So there's no noob 2h spammers and stuff? Anyway, weird argument.

[Noble Crassius]

I agree with the last part. No clue why you would nerf the survivability of the top tier shields. It's what makes a top tier shield a top tier shield. Anyway, gorath made a nice post why nerfing survivability shouldn't happen.

Look at the poll most people think shields are fine as is, to buff one aspect we will have to nerf another. I for one would rather have a slightly less durable high tier shield that is faster/less encumbering would you agree to the same?

It's actually due to weird shield hitboxes. According to the animation and the model, the sword should hit the edge of the shield and be blocked but instead it goes straight through. I'm not talking about someone getting behind me.

Ah well this rarely happens to me and when it does its cause I wasn't facing my opponent all the way so I usually think it's deserved. If its a bug then I'm sure it will be fixed and then still not a balance issue.

Hmmm... So there's no noob 2h spammers and stuff? Anyway, weird argument.

No, just more noob swordnboards around because you won't have to manual block.

The rest I just have to go with it because well I don't know you and have to take your word that your a good duelist.

I'm positively sure that none of people who think that 1H+shield is OP never played that class.

I played this class extensively and it is now more powerful then it has ever been. I think it's op in some ways, and up in others.

Gorath I ask you that when you answer my question that they be as short and simple as possible, so as not to dilute your answers in another wall of text. I would ask one by one but since we are on a forum and I want to keep interest I'll ask a few at a time.

#1. Do you agree with my stance that 1hs can finally attack and counter attack effectively? Meaning our attack speed and damage is not greatly lacking?

#2. Do you agree with my stance that for all practical purposes holding RMB makes 1hs invulnerable to most standard attacks? (discounting the weird shield glitch spawny brought up)

[Gorath]

#1. Do you agree with my stance that 1hs can finally attack and counter attack effectively? Meaning our attack speed and damage is not greatly lacking? 

Speed: 
Without a shield - yes. 
With a shield - meh, it's still slow due to the shield affecting feinting/counterattack speed.  Hence the prevalence of 98+ speed 1hers being the standard on the field to make up for this.  Side sword, spammitars, picks, espanadas, etc.  Don't see much variety in 1h weaponry either along with lack of shield variety.  I've only seen 1 other person besides myself use the military cleaver for example and he's in my clan.

Damage: 
Meh, 1her damage is still poop, but then again it's a 1her so it's going to be lower than 2h/polearms.

#2. Do you agree with my stance that for all practical purposes holding RMB makes 1hs invulnerable to most standard attacks? (discounting the weird shield glitch spawny brought up)

From the front, sure.  That's kind of the purpose of a shield.  At least in this limited game.  In reality shields are as much an offensive weapon as a defensive tool (shield bashes pack alot of force and are quite capable of shattering bones even behind armor).

Look at the poll most people think shields are fine as is

This should tell you something imo.

I for one would rather have a slightly less durable high tier shield that is faster/less encumbering would you agree to the same?

I do agree, which is why I use the heater shield or elite cav shield.  Those are exactly what you are asking for.  High tier shield that is less durable (more than slightly) and are faster/less encumbering.  There's also the knightly heater shield and knightly kite shield for this purpose as well.  Problem is, you'll get shot by ranged weapons in either the foot or head alot unlike the bigger huscarl shield, which I suspect, along with it's durability, is why the majority of people use it.  If you want a shield that fits the role you are asking for, do what I do (and a few other players) and go for one of the high tier shields that fulfils the role you're looking for.  If anything buff the speed of those types of shield a bit more and you might see more fighters going for them instead of huscarls, which will get left to the turtlers.

(You could always use a buckler too, but they look retarded)

[Xant]

1her damage is poop? Yeah, sure.... 1h weapons 2hit me more than any other weapon type.

And actually, 60% of the people who voted think shields /aren't/ fine as is.

[Vexus]

When you have weapons like side sword or scimitar 1hers are NOT slow unless you have low agility.

Probably people in eu saw dimaurban playing he can spam (He does) with side sword even if you block he still swings very fast.

Also if shields were so underpowered why more then half of every team is filled with people with shields many of them using a huscarl?