Round Shields...(Nerf thread)

[Kalam]

I realize it's been said, but I feel the need to stress these points:

When using any other shield against long and/or curved 2h/polearms, it tends to be very easy to find an angle with which they can just ghost through the shield, even when the shielder is facing them head on. This is a general issue that happens anyway with the huscarl, it just happens more with the smaller shields. I do it to shielders when I'm using a katana, claymore or polearm, and it's a hell of a lot easier to do against someone without a huscarl.

More importantly, arrows and throwing weapons have a higher chance of riddling you through these same angles on every other shield. I don't know about you guys, but the only reason to use 1h in battle for me (duels are a different story) is in order to use a shield that offers protection against enemy ranged fire. The only alternative is the heavy board shield, and that's way too slow for my style of combat.

[EponiCo]

All the high-end shields except for the huscarl are pretty terrible. I mean, why would anyone use the buckler unless they like the look? It's expensive, tiny and breaks in two hits from an axe.

I tried the buckler a bit on the duel server. Didn't have a big problem with it's tinyness, I just made sure I always turned correctly. Granted it wasn't a big test really going for coverage. But its big advantage is it simply won't break to normal melee weapons and it is fast. So it's a dueling shield, but bad for the battlefield, but that makes sense actually.

[Diomedes]

All the high-end shields except for the huscarl are pretty terrible. I mean, why would anyone use the buckler unless they like the look? It's expensive, tiny and breaks in two hits from an axe.

I use the knightly heater shield sometimes.  Smaller radius and less health but better against axes and significantly faster.  I'm not an exceptionally good player but on the very rare occasion that I kill a very good player (ManofWar, Harmless Peasant, etc.) I'm generally using the knightly heater shield.  The speed of the huscarl is slow enough that you can almost always predict the attacks of those using it, while the knightly heater shield leaves a little more up to the imagination.

[UrLukur]

Main thing that bugs me with shield apart from horrible internal balance is that with every one you move slow like turtle.

I use the knightly heater shield sometimes.  Smaller radius and less health but better against axes and significantly faster.  I'm not an exceptionally good player but on the very rare occasion that I kill a very good player (ManofWar, Harmless Peasant, etc.) I'm generally using the knightly heater shield.  The speed of the huscarl is slow enough that you can almost always predict the attacks of those using it, while the knightly heater shield leaves a little more up to the imagination.

It's actually worse against axes, and it's not much faster.

[Diomedes]

It's actually worse against axes, and it's not much faster.

Really?  My understanding was that armour had a significant effect upon the damage that axes do, but that's mostly just hearsay.  As for speed I find it noticeable - enough that, with 6 shield skill, I can block comfortably on reflexes rather than considered tactics.

[Engine]

Blocking isn't a problem on any shield once you reach 5 or 6 skill. Unfortunately that skill has no effect on the speed of lowering the shield after a block.

The only other high-end shields I think have any real use are the Norman or the Board shield, and the Board can't be used on a horse.

We need more options.

[Kalam]

The only issue with the Knightly Heater in the build I use these days is coverage vs. ranged. It's just so much easier to use a huscarl to make sure a stray arrow, bolt, or jarid doesn't kill me.

However, the knightly heater is my favourite shield to use in melee combat, if I use a shield. It does break faster than a huscarl, but with a high enough shield skill, that's less of an issue.

[bruce]

So it's a dueling shield, but bad for the battlefield, but that makes sense actually.

Actually by the plate era when a shield wasn't so needed to fend off arrows/etc (because armour was quite effective at this) the buckler was quite common on the battlefield (unlike other shields which were at that point rarely used by armoured men at arms-  but which were still used by lightly armoured troops). They were quite common. The spanish used sword and buckler men them to break "push of pike" situations. Most men accompanying Cortes were sword and buckler men.

The buckler was a military shield, not a dueling civilian shield.

Really?  My understanding was that armour had a significant effect upon the damage that axes do, but that's mostly just hearsay.  As for speed I find it noticeable - enough that, with 6 shield skill, I can block comfortably on reflexes rather than considered tactics.

Axes break high armour low HP shields much better then they break low armour high HP shields. Same goes with high damage weapons in general. For instance, when I use a 1h with my 1 wpf and 6 PS I can never break a plated round shield, while I do break a huscarl in about 35 hits or so. With a masterwork glaive and my 25 wpf I break the plated round shield much much faster then I break a huscarl. (We did some testing with standing stationary and beating on the shield, so speed bonuses aren't factored in even).

With an axe, it takes two hits to break a plated round shield, and 7 or so for a huscarl. It is possible to one-hit destroy a plated round shield with really good speed bonus and a GLA (that was tested on a char with 6 PS and 144 wpf).

[Noble Crassius]

Plated round shield is retarded



Round shield
Weight 6
requirement 2
hit points 310
body armor 12
spd rtng 87
shield width 39

Plate covered round shield
weight 10
requirement 4
hit points 100
body armor 50
spd rtng 75
shield width 31

The hit points are so low it will literally be destroyed by anything. Why should the plate covered round shield not be the same as a round shield HP wise? Isn't it the same shield just covered by plate? This is one of the shields most needing a buff. It literally does nothing good.

[bruce]

The hit points are so low it will literally be destroyed by anything. Why should the plate covered round shield not be the same as a round shield HP wise? Isn't it the same shield just covered by plate? This is one of the shields most needing a buff. It literally does nothing good.

Agreed, the shield is so bad (and in addition to it being so bad, it weights a ton, costs quite a bit, and is slow as hell) in comparison with, well, any other shield. Waste of a good looking model.

[UrLukur]

Really?  My understanding was that armour had a significant effect upon the damage that axes do, but that's mostly just hearsay.  As for speed I find it noticeable - enough that, with 6 shield skill, I can block comfortably on reflexes rather than considered tactics.

Blocking isnt big issue with either shield. Only feinting is bit better with higher speed shield.

[Vygar]

Really?  My understanding was that armour had a significant effect upon the damage that axes do, but that's mostly just hearsay.  As for speed I find it noticeable - enough that, with 6 shield skill, I can block comfortably on reflexes rather than considered tactics.

My Steel Shield lasts about 4 hits against any pole/2handed axe..and it has extremely high armour. 

Agreed, the shield is so bad (and in addition to it being so bad, it weights a ton, costs quite a bit, and is slow as hell) in comparison with, well, any other shield. Waste of a good looking model.

I also agree.  I also believe that the Steel Shield needs a buff.  This thing is so extremely expensive (10k), doesn't function against axes any better than lesser shields, is SUPER slow, and doesn't have enough coverage.  I pay about 500g just to maintenance the thing.  Hell, I go broke running Side Sword/Steel Shield and wearing no armour at all!  1h/Shield is pretty gimped!

[Noble Crassius]

I'm thinking that axes bypass armor, and maybe the shield skill bonuses.

I base this on two facts

that every one is claiming 3-4 strikes with an axe for their shields to break. Which at shield skill 3,+ heavy round shield it was 3-4 strikes for me as well.
and
The plate covered round shield has such high armor and it still breaks in like one axe hit (two at most)

One thing is clear Hp>Armour as far as shields go.

[Engine]

One thing is clear Hp>Armour as far as shields go.

100%.

[UrLukur]

I'm thinking that axes bypass armor, and maybe the shield skill bonuses.

I base this on two facts

that every one is claiming 3-4 strikes with an axe for their shields to break. Which at shield skill 3,+ heavy round shield it was 3-4 strikes for me as well.
and
The plate covered round shield has such high armor and it still breaks in like one axe hit (two at most)

One thing is clear Hp>Armour as far as shields go.

Weapons with bonus against shields deal twice the amount of damage when hitting shields. Generally speaking, high armor-low HP shields (not metal ones, those are slightly different) are about equal against 1h weapons without bonus against shield (on agi character some balanced hybrids, they are worse against STR and balanced dedicated characters with 1h) , better against peasants and WAY WORSE against 2h/polearms (regardless if they have bonus against shield or not).

So really they are not any good against endgame characters and characters with loomed weapons.

Main issue lies in soak and reduction values, high damage attack virtually bypass armor, and reduction value from 25 armor is about 20 % against cut, worse against others. Percentage value need to be increased in order to make high armor shields (and high tier armor) worth it.