Poll

Are you satisfied with how shields in general are now?

No!
35 (23.6%)
Minor balancing needs to be done
46 (31.1%)
Yes, they are fine as is
67 (45.3%)

Total Members Voted: 148

Author Topic: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)  (Read 18929 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Noble Crassius

  • Noble
  • **
  • Renown: 12
  • Infamy: 0
  • cRPG Player
  • Long live the Han
    • View Profile
    • http://rotk.ws/
  • Faction: Han Empire
  • Game nicks: Han_Ling, SiegeSome, Fallen_Knight
Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
« Reply #60 on: February 10, 2011, 10:11:49 pm »
0
Simple answers please Gorath! I'm not the brightest light in the universe and posting conflicting answers will just confuse me  :oops:
So what I gathered from your answers correct me if I am wrong:

#1.  Meaning our attack speed and damage is not greatly lacking?
You showed instances where they are not lacking even with shield (the current topic please stay with it) in my limited knowledge I can't possible know what exactly you meant but if I can a paraphrase you and say that you meant, Yes our attack speed and damage is not greatly lacking in most cases ?

#2. Do you agree with my stance that for all practical purposes holding RMB makes...
What I meant by practical purposes is exactly that - from the front. No one can block behind them. So you agree with this point as well then?

« Last Edit: February 10, 2011, 10:15:32 pm by Noble Crassius »
On it.

Offline Gorath

  • Count
  • *****
  • Renown: 226
  • Infamy: 168
  • cRPG Player
  • Why the hell did I do anything other than ranged?
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Chaos
  • Game nicks: The threat of physical violence should be present in all things
  • IRC nick: Otherwise we get a swarm of faggot children like the majority of the cRPG/Internet population
Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
« Reply #61 on: February 10, 2011, 10:14:56 pm »
0
1her damage is poop? Yeah, sure.... 1h weapons 2hit me more than any other weapon type.
Yeah, 1her damage is the lowest of melee weapon types on average.  Math.

And actually, 60% of the people who voted think shields /aren't/ fine as is.

True, though the 2nd option (minor balancing) is pretty vague.  I myself voted for that option because I believe the speed rating of other shields should be buffed to give them a proper place in the inter-shield heirarchy.  There's no desire for a nerf in that vote, but at first glance it probably looks that way due to the ambiguous wording of that poll option.

When you have weapons like side sword or scimitar 1hers are NOT slow unless you have low agility.
Already mentioned that the only 1hers really being used are the insanely fast ones like the side sword.  The reason for this is that shields slow your 1hers down so much that any 1her with a high speed and decent damage is optimal.  Sadly it also means a large lack of variety on the field.

Also if shields were so underpowered why more then half of every team is filled with people with shields many of them using a huscarl?

How many projectiles are in the air nowadays?  Especially thrown ones?  Seems like there's more arrows, jarids, lances, daggers, darts, throwing axes in the air per square inch than o2 molecules.  Balb even mentioned once to me in a game about his shield "Cause I fucking hate ranged spam".  Most shielders I know play their shielder for this reason.  Hell even I swap to my neglected shielder after 3-4 rounds of excessive ranged shit and I get tired of it.

Also you have to factor in style points.  Some people just like the way sword and board looks.  If it wasn't so much easier to get higher kdr's with a 2her or polearm for the investment I'd much rather play sword n' board because I think it looks cool stylistically.
And I should be nice or polite to anyone.... why exactly?

Offline Xant

  • Finnish Pony
  • King
  • **********
  • Renown: 1552
  • Infamy: 803
  • cRPG Player
    • View Profile
Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
« Reply #62 on: February 10, 2011, 10:16:38 pm »
0
On average mayhaps, Gorath. But just about everyone uses the high tier ones which aren't lacking in damage at all, quite the contrary.
Meaning lies as much
in the mind of the reader
as in the Haiku.

Offline Noble Crassius

  • Noble
  • **
  • Renown: 12
  • Infamy: 0
  • cRPG Player
  • Long live the Han
    • View Profile
    • http://rotk.ws/
  • Faction: Han Empire
  • Game nicks: Han_Ling, SiegeSome, Fallen_Knight
Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
« Reply #63 on: February 10, 2011, 10:22:26 pm »
0

True, though the 2nd option (minor balancing) is pretty vague.  I myself voted for that option because I believe the speed rating of other shields should be buffed to give them a proper place in the inter-shield heirarchy.  There's no desire for a nerf in that vote, but at first glance it probably looks that way due to the ambiguous wording of that poll option.


Yes the middle option was for those thinking shields needed only a minor buff/nerf. (both ways, either way not my goal) the general thought behind the poll is do people want to shields fundamentally change? My vision is I would like to see a transformation from slow and turtle like to as close as we can get in this game to offensive weapons.

 Your "top tier" shields you referred to me are actually middle tier shields. They break quite easily and still slow you down quite a bit. these are fine imo. (maybe less encumbering and more speed would be nice.) However the Huscarl/Heavy round shield out preforms them in every way.

On an unrelated note would you please clarify your answer's to my questions?
« Last Edit: February 10, 2011, 10:24:33 pm by Noble Crassius »
On it.

Offline Gorath

  • Count
  • *****
  • Renown: 226
  • Infamy: 168
  • cRPG Player
  • Why the hell did I do anything other than ranged?
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Chaos
  • Game nicks: The threat of physical violence should be present in all things
  • IRC nick: Otherwise we get a swarm of faggot children like the majority of the cRPG/Internet population
Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
« Reply #64 on: February 10, 2011, 10:24:09 pm »
0
Simple answers please Gorath!
Those were simple answers.  If you mean just straight yes or no's then I will oblige.
#1.  Meaning our attack speed and damage is not greatly lacking?
No.  I disagree.  Speed and damage overall are lacking compared to non-shielders.

#2. Do you agree with my stance that for all practical purposes holding RMB makes...
Yup.  It does.  It should.

On average mayhaps, Gorath. But just about everyone uses the high tier ones which aren't lacking in damage at all, quite the contrary.

Ok top tier damage comparison
Side sword: 
swing damage 32, cut
thrust damage 26 pierce

Flamberge:
swing damage 48, cut
thrust damage 24 pierce

Elegant Poleaxe:
swing damage 39, cut
thrust damage 26 pierce
bonus vs shields


1her damage is the lowest, which is what I said.  The pierce is decent on the 1her, I will give it that.

Your "top tier" shields you referred to me are actually middle tier shields. They break quite easily and still slow you down quite a bit. these are fine imo. (maybe less encumbering and more speed would be nice.)
Ok then, use the bucklers which are price-wise higher tier than the huscarl.  Faster, less encumbering, less durable, less protective.
However the Huscarl/Heavy round shield out preforms them in every way. Would you please clarify your answer's to me questions?
No, not every way.  They're both slower, and heavier.  The heavy round shield is even lower on the shield tier hierarchy than the shields I brought up.
(click to show/hide)
Compared side by side you would probably be better served by going for the heater shield.  More HP, faster, lighter, more durable overall.  Less coverage though.

 


« Last Edit: February 10, 2011, 10:34:13 pm by Gorath »
And I should be nice or polite to anyone.... why exactly?

Offline Heroin

  • Baron
  • ****
  • Renown: 135
  • Infamy: 32
  • cRPG Player
  • cRPG NA Server Admin
    • View Profile
  • Faction: MB
  • Game nicks: BlackHand_Heroin, Heroin_ATS, Heroin__JaBoNRA, Heroine_Heroin_MB, F8
Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
« Reply #65 on: February 10, 2011, 10:29:39 pm »
0
True, though the 2nd option (minor balancing) is pretty vague. There's no desire for a nerf in that vote, but at first glance it probably looks that way due to the ambiguous wording of that poll option.

I agree with this. Your poll doesn't fit properly into this thread and is misleading. I voted 2, because I feel lower tier shields should be buffed, but I don't feel like the huscarl needs a nerf.

In the future, if you make a poll to support your point, make it clear and concise, such as:

Do you feel like the huscarl shield should get a nerf?
a. Yes
b. No
Quote from: Godfrey of Ibelin
I once fought for two days with an arrow through my testicle.

Offline Xant

  • Finnish Pony
  • King
  • **********
  • Renown: 1552
  • Infamy: 803
  • cRPG Player
    • View Profile
Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
« Reply #66 on: February 10, 2011, 10:35:25 pm »
0
Ok top tier damage comparison
Side sword: 
swing damage 32, cut
thrust damage 26 pierce
Flamberge:
swing damage 48, cutthrust damage 24 pierce

Elegant Poleaxe:
swing damage 39, cut
thrust damage 26 piercebonus vs shields
1her damage is the lowest, which is what I said.  The pierce is decent on the 1her, I will give it that.

lol.

More like

Steel pick
swing damage 33, pierce

Side sword
swing damage 32, cut

Broad One Handed Battle Axe
swing damage 35, cut

Militar Cleaver
swing damage 35, cut

vs

German Greatsword
swing damage 38, cut
thrust damage 30 pierce

Katana
swing damage 35, cut
thrust damage 18 pierce

Longsword
swing damage 36, cut
thrust damage 25 pierce

Practice longsword
swing damage 18, blunt
thrust damage 14 blunt
Meaning lies as much
in the mind of the reader
as in the Haiku.

Offline Noble Crassius

  • Noble
  • **
  • Renown: 12
  • Infamy: 0
  • cRPG Player
  • Long live the Han
    • View Profile
    • http://rotk.ws/
  • Faction: Han Empire
  • Game nicks: Han_Ling, SiegeSome, Fallen_Knight
Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
« Reply #67 on: February 10, 2011, 10:38:34 pm »
0
No.  I disagree.  Speed and damage overall are lacking compared to non-shielders.
Yup.  It does.  It should.
Your avoiding the essence of the questions Gorath! We are not comparing to non-shielders but instead trying to measure shielders as they are.

On #1 (we'll get to number 2 later)
 Here let me rephrase maybe the phrase "greatly lacking" is a tad bit vague.

#1. Is 1hs speed such as that we can not attack after being attacked? meaning are all 1handers due to die to spam? Or can we block and attack pretty much all the time?
All of these are essentially the same question so feel free to answer one meaning all.

#2. is the damage as such that upon landing a hit we 1hs have trouble killing all but the unarmored? or can we pretty effectively get kills? Voiding all situational events meaning if we hit enough (within reason) they will die?

« Last Edit: February 10, 2011, 10:39:49 pm by Noble Crassius »
On it.

Offline Siiem

  • Heretic
  • Duke
  • *******
  • Renown: 611
  • Infamy: 129
  • cRPG Player A Gentleman and a Scholar
    • View Profile
Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
« Reply #68 on: February 10, 2011, 10:39:52 pm »
0
You compare swing damage of a 1h vs weapons that use boths hands... 32 cut damage is the same for a 2h as a 1h. Therefore all weapons that use both hands have higher ratings to compenate for a shield.

Offline Noble Crassius

  • Noble
  • **
  • Renown: 12
  • Infamy: 0
  • cRPG Player
  • Long live the Han
    • View Profile
    • http://rotk.ws/
  • Faction: Han Empire
  • Game nicks: Han_Ling, SiegeSome, Fallen_Knight
Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
« Reply #69 on: February 10, 2011, 10:42:34 pm »
0
I agree with this. Your poll doesn't fit properly into this thread and is misleading. I voted 2, because I feel lower tier shields should be buffed, but I don't feel like the huscarl needs a nerf.

In the future, if you make a poll to support your point, make it clear and concise, such as:

Do you feel like the huscarl shield should get a nerf?
a. Yes
b. No
Read my post on this if you disagree after that then maybe I can edit it to your liking. 

To all those that are "comparing" these different weapon types and editing out the other balancing facors, those weapons aren't similar and aren't supposed to balance in specific relation to each other. So please stop distorting values and lets get back on topic. If gorath wants he can make a buff 1h damage/speed thread himself.

Gorath I hope you will still answer my questions, I want to have a intellectual dialogue and who knows maybe you'll change my mind or me yours  :D
« Last Edit: February 10, 2011, 10:47:41 pm by Noble Crassius »
On it.

Offline zagibu

  • cRPG President
  • King
  • **********
  • Renown: 1436
  • Infamy: 228
  • cRPG Player A Gentleman and a Scholar
    • View Profile
Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
« Reply #70 on: February 10, 2011, 10:44:07 pm »
0
I'm also for a buff to some of the mid tier shields. There is currently a huge gap between a big bunch of mediocre shields and the huscarl shield. I say, buff plate covered round shield (up HP to 200), change heavy heater (HP 380, Req 4) and knightly heater (HP 320, Req 4).
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
 Why am I beswung by sharpe and pointed utensyls?

Offline Gorath

  • Count
  • *****
  • Renown: 226
  • Infamy: 168
  • cRPG Player
  • Why the hell did I do anything other than ranged?
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Chaos
  • Game nicks: The threat of physical violence should be present in all things
  • IRC nick: Otherwise we get a swarm of faggot children like the majority of the cRPG/Internet population
Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
« Reply #71 on: February 10, 2011, 10:48:44 pm »
0
Your avoiding the essence of the questions Gorath! We are not comparing to non-shielders but instead trying to measure shielders as they are. 
I'm not avoiding anything.  If you're not talking about shielders vs non-shielders then there is no issue whatsoever as shielders vs shielders are equal in all regards.  lol
 

#1. Is 1hs speed such as that we can not attack after being attacked? meaning are all 1handers due to die to spam? Or can we block and attack pretty much all the time?
All of these are essentially the same question so feel free to answer one meaning all.

#2. is the damage as such that upon landing a hit we 1hs have trouble killing all but the unarmored? or can we pretty effectively get kills? Voiding all situational events meaning if we hit enough (within reason) they will die?

The problem is that your questions are completely situational and apply to everything.  I can answer yes to both.  Given ideal circumstances absolutely 1hers can attack and block and attack and block.  Given enough hits (7 on guys in plate like goretooth, using overheads with my military cleaver) 1hers can kill anyone.

I can also say this about the club, torch, pitchfork and all wooden practice weapons as well.  Except for the dagger, since it has no block.

You have to make up your mind whether you're talking about an internal item balance, or whether you're talking about balance as it relates to the game as a whole (which is going to mean shielders vs non-shielders).

You compare swing damage of a 1h vs weapons that use boths hands... 32 cut damage is the same for a 2h as a 1h. Therefore all weapons that use both hands have higher ratings to compenate for a shield.
That's irrelevant to what I said.  I said 1hers have the lowest damage of melee weapons on average, which is true.  That's compared to 2hers and polearms.  This is important because part of the argument brought up was "Shields need a nerf, they're too durable and 1hers should be forced into manual blocking!".  Well if that's true then why would 1hers ever be used since they have the lowest damage and range?  The whole point, besides showing off, is to use a 1her and shield.  Removing the shield and saying 1hers should be forced to fight without one would mean 1hers themselves would need to be buffed quite a bit to make them more fairly balanced vs 2hers and polearms overall.

To all those that are "comparing" these different weapon types and editing out the other balancing facors, those weapons aren't similar and aren't supposed to balance in specific relation to each other. So please stop distorting values and lets get back on topic. If gorath wants he can make a buff 1h damage/speed thread himself. 
Same as above, this is a major factor of the topic.  Huscarl is the most attractive shield overall, yes.  However it's not because it needs a nerf, it's that other shields need a buff of some fashion in order to appeal to different combat styles/situations.  Ignoring 1her/shield relations and balance amongst and compared to 2hers and polearm users is ignoring a HUGE part of "class" balance and will only lead to overnerfing a playstyle that already fights to remain competetive.


Gorath I hope you will still answer my questions, I want to have a intellectual dialogue and who knows maybe you'll change my mind or me yours  :D

I have answered your questions like 3 times now.  Just because you either don't like, or don't understand the answers doesn't mean I haven't answered them.   :mrgreen:
« Last Edit: February 10, 2011, 10:54:23 pm by Gorath »
And I should be nice or polite to anyone.... why exactly?

Offline EponiCo

  • Baron
  • ****
  • Renown: 92
  • Infamy: 15
  • cRPG Player
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Caravan Guild
  • Game nicks: Guard_Aine
Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
« Reply #72 on: February 10, 2011, 10:57:25 pm »
0
Some stats taken from out the game, not the site, seem to say that round shields are in fact larger on both width and height:

Elite Cav - size 66 (*66 I assume)
Knightly Heater - 44*62
Unless I'm missing something here the round one is simply superior, since all stats are equal (and price is lower). Except durability which would also work in favour of round presumably.

Round shield - 78
Heavy Kite - 44*72
If that continues - and unless the -3 speed on heavy round makes a significant difference - the rounds are plainly superior in all tiers. Large round also has a even higher tier (huscarl) and small round a cheaper tier (plain cav). So imo there has to be a rebalance inside shield class.

Offline Gorath

  • Count
  • *****
  • Renown: 226
  • Infamy: 168
  • cRPG Player
  • Why the hell did I do anything other than ranged?
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Chaos
  • Game nicks: The threat of physical violence should be present in all things
  • IRC nick: Otherwise we get a swarm of faggot children like the majority of the cRPG/Internet population
Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
« Reply #73 on: February 10, 2011, 11:03:00 pm »
0
Some stats taken from out the game, not the site, seem to say that round shields are in fact larger on both width and height:

Elite Cav - size 66 (*66 I assume)
Knightly Heater - 44*62
Unless I'm missing something here the round one is simply superior, since all stats are equal (and price is lower). Except durability which would also work in favour of round presumably.

Round shield - 78
Heavy Kite - 44*72
If that continues - and unless the -3 speed on heavy round makes a significant difference - the rounds are plainly superior in all tiers. Large round also has a even higher tier (huscarl) and small round a cheaper tier (plain cav). So imo there has to be a rebalance inside shield class.

Agreed.  This is what I've been talking about.  The other shields need something that makes them more attractive in some way.  Speed.  Armor perhaps for others (survives more hits from axes).  Something that gives em an area clearly superior to the huscarl and it's bretheren.  An HP/durability nerf is the wrong way to go about doing this rebalancing act imo.
And I should be nice or polite to anyone.... why exactly?

Offline Noble Crassius

  • Noble
  • **
  • Renown: 12
  • Infamy: 0
  • cRPG Player
  • Long live the Han
    • View Profile
    • http://rotk.ws/
  • Faction: Han Empire
  • Game nicks: Han_Ling, SiegeSome, Fallen_Knight
Re: Round Shields...(Nerf thread)
« Reply #74 on: February 10, 2011, 11:04:20 pm »
0
I'm not avoiding anything.  If you're not talking about shielders vs non-shielders then there is no issue whatsoever as shielders vs shielders are equal in all regards.  lol
 Alright your not avoiding but a simple answer to my questions would be nice
The problem is that your questions are completely situational and apply to everything.  I can answer yes to both.  Given ideal circumstances absolutely 1hers can attack and block and attack and block.  Given enough hits (7 on guys in plate like goretooth, using overheads with my military cleaver) 1hers can kill anyone.
7 is not extravgant so I'll take this as yes to #2
I can also say this about the club, torch, pitchfork and all wooden practice weapons as well.  Except for the dagger, since it has no block.
within reason
You have to make up your mind whether you're talking about an internal item balance, or whether you're talking about balance as it relates to the game as a whole (which is going to mean shielders vs non-shielders).
 We are not comparing anything. We are not measuring shielders v shielders or shielders v PA or shielders v anything Just 1handers ability as is
Your going to need to work with me by keeping the answers simple!
So if I gathered correctly you agree that we can attack-block-attack, and that we can kill within reason, or am I wrong on this point?

Which if true means that ( waiting for a response is hardly an option)
My original question was
#1.  Meaning our attack speed and damage is not greatly lacking?
This answer would have to change to yes, since if we can attack-block-attack our speed must not be THAT bad and if we can kill within reason or dmage must not be THAT lacking either. or do you disagree?
« Last Edit: February 10, 2011, 11:10:36 pm by Noble Crassius »
On it.