Round Shields...(Nerf thread)

[Noble Crassius]

I have answered your questions like 3 times now.  Just because you either don't like, or don't understand the answers doesn't mean I haven't answered them.   

The additional questions were quite needed, to clear up any misunderstanding we had. I hope you don't mind in the regard that its all in the quest for knowledge.

and additional question are going to be asked would you liek to continue answering them quite simply? or we can just end this discussion its all up to you Gorath.

[Gorath]

The additional questions were quite needed, to clear up any misunderstanding we had. I hope you don't mind in the regard that its all in the quest for knowledge.

and additional question are going to be asked would you liek to continue answering them quite simply? or we can just end this discussion its all up to you Gorath.

Nope, don't mind at all.  Fire away and I'll answer as simply as I can given I don't believe in such a thing as black and white answers without paying attention to all of the situation modifiers relevant to the question at hand.  Otherwise I'd end up giving such blanket statements as "Yes" to such things as "Do you endorse killing people and find it morally acceptable"   

[Diomedes]

Noble Crassius your attempt to emulate Socratic elenchus fails.  Asking Gorath to answer questions "more simply" is essentially asking him to ignore subtlety.  Asking him questions while mildly stating "that its all in the quest for knowledge" is a half-truth.  You made this thread with a clearly stated intent:
 

I ... say NERF HUSCARL (and by effect the heavy round shield)!!!!

 


Stop pretending.

[Rogue]

Even before the patch the huscarl shield was the most common shield type. It's not only the durability of this shield, but also its size. When a 1h player with a huscarl gets ganged on by multiple enemies or is forced into a corner he enjoys vastly superior survivability compared to any other shield, because the huscarl basically protects your side as well. Making such a large, heavy and expensive shield less durable might not be the best solution though. I would prefer an improved (speed!) of some of the heater/kite shields. I use a knightly heater shield and although its way faster and lighter, it feels no different whenever I loot a huscarl from the ground. The main difference is that some people can 3shot my knightly heater.

[Noble Crassius]

Nope, don't mind at all.  Fire away and I'll answer as simply as I can given I don't believe in such a thing as black and white answers without paying attention to all of the situation modifiers relevant to the question at hand.  Otherwise I'd end up giving such blanket statements as "Yes" to such things as "Do you endorse killing people and find it morally acceptable"   

And I thank you for it Gorath! You'll only have to endure a little longer as my line of questioning is short. Forgive the time on thsi responce as it has to be phrased just right to avoid the addition of more questions and therefore further subjecting you to this mindless dribble.

So to backtrack since we now agree with both of my original statements that #1. 1hs can sustain and prevail the flow of combat and #2. We have in most cases (voiding crush through) an ability that can sustain us from multiple attacks with one click

Can it also be agreed that
#3. Any class in any game that has high attack AND high defense with minor to no drawbacks is imbalanced? (I think we can but that doesn't relate to this discussion it's just a base question)
and the kicker
#4. The shielder now as the ability to attack effectively AND still keeps its perfect defense albiet with drawbacks (to be addressed)? (only thing that changed was the shield force-field which imo needs to be added back for most shields.)

Noble Crassius your attempt to emulate Socratic elenchus fails.  Asking Gorath to answer questions "more simply" is essentially asking him to ignore subtlety.  Asking him questions while mildly stating "that its all in the quest for knowledge" is a half-truth

Oh not at all! you see inside a wall of text is the ability to dilute your argument and fill it with half truths and exaggerations (even I am guilty of this) I simply want a simple answer to my simple questions instead of all these grand gestures that are only designed to convince a mass of mindless cohorts. We here are not mindless cohorts and after all, and what could be the harm in demanding simple yes or no answers?
Is it beyond you to think that maybe my opinions can change? I actually already stated that (read my posts) I'm not pretending squat  .

[Heroin]

We here are not mindless cohorts

Speak for yourself. We are legion.

[Gorath]

#3. Any class in any game that has high attack AND high defense with minor to no drawbacks is imbalanced? (I think we can but that doesn't relate to this discussion it's just a base question) 

Sure.

#4. The shielder now as the ability to attack effectively AND still keeps its perfect defense albiet with drawbacks

No.
I say this on the basic fundamental premise that the moment you attack your defense is shattered, which holds true for all weapon classes.
If you mean that it can trade off, then sure.

Stop here if you really can't stand anything but yes or no's:

Here's the rub though, because I believe I know where you're going with #3:  Shielders do not have a high attack.  In fact comparitively speaking, they have a low or baseline attack.  Also the level of their defense is in question given two factors:
1)  Shields break (granted some take a while, others not as much) while weapons and armor do not.  Good defense for a limited time vs standard defense all the time.
2)  Shields (other than specific uber large shields such as the dreaded Huscarl) do not grant immunity to ranged, only a solid defense against it.  This was a good change, one I supported forever and will support.  I now headshot or foot-kill many shielders (not using a huscarl) quite consistantly with my x-bow (previously throwing too before I dropped it for x-bow yet again on the last toon that used throwing).  The requirement for aiming a shield at the attack being recieved is also a welcome addition rather than forcefields as it adds back a level of skill in shield use that was lacking beforehand.

If I may pose my own question:  The biggest issue with round shields is that they are by and large the best choice for a shield in every area correct?  Speed, durability, coverage, etc.
If yes, then again I propose that the problem lies in other shields not having any noticable niche strength.  Board shields are great for coverage and durability, while being slower.  A real wall.  However stat wise there's not enough of a gap to really take a hold of that market.  Heater shields are faster and weaker, but not noticably faster to really make a noticable impact over a huscarl.  So really the issue is that with round shields being the baseline that every other shield is judged by, nothing else has any real noticable benefit in any given area to compete against the all around design (no pun intended).  Sure the numbers are there on the sheet:

(click to show/hide)

Heavy Board Shield
4710
weight 11
requirement 5
hit points 550
body armor 14
spd rtng 78
shield width 28
shield height 60

Knightly Heater Shield
4328
weight 5.5
requirement 3
hit points 220
body armor 26
spd rtng 100
shield width 22
shield height 40
 
Heavy Kite Shield
4080
weight 7.5
requirement 3
hit points 310
body armor 18
spd rtng 87
shield width 22
shield height 50

Huscarl's Round Shield
6458
weight 9
requirement 4
hit points 410
body armor 19
spd rtng 81
shield width 43
Can't use on horseback

But the heavy board shield doesn't really feel any more impenetrable than the Husc, while it does feel rediculously slow so what's the point?  The heavy kite doesn't feel any lighter or faster, while it does feel less durable.  The knightly heater feels only marginally lighter/faster, but it does feel a whole hell of alot less durable and protective.  Buff these other designs in certain areas to really give them their own niche that's readily felt on the battlefield and leave the round shields as the jack of all trades shields imo.

*Logically round shields were superior designs in history as well.  A circle is just a very efficient shape in terms of coverage vs weight/size, manueverability/speed, etc.  Also it lends itself to a curved surface (spherical) readily enough to deflect blows.*

If you really want to get into shields being an "Ez mode" blocking system then by all means I'm willing to discuss ways to change it that will make it more skill-based, though in doing so the general power of shielders in melee combat is going to increase from a systems change to more acurately reflect the combat ability of sword and board combat.  Currently it's slow, clunky and lacks offensive the offensive tools it's capable of.  However to make it better would require some pretty sweeping changes to the combat system itself.  Currently we have an approximation of combat.

While it's not western (hard to find western vids that aren't 2h'd swords or fencing.... some cultural thing I suspect), and it's a choreographed martial arts kata it's still done at a good enough speed and precision to give a better feel for the fluid nature of sword n' board combat vs what we have in-game.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rMAOzOD6Js&feature=player_detailpage#t=36s

[EponiCo]

Gorath, the thing is I'm not really feeling the speed difference between with knightly kite shield and without either.
Where does it happen? The only thing where I really felt slower is with fake feints (i.e. switching attack direction without actually swinging) but I may be imagining it. So making the noticeable faster may not even be an option, but the huscarl can be made slower.
In any case I think what the nonround shields need is a little more more width. But forcefield shouldn't return either.

[Kalam]

As someone who switches between the huscarl and knightly heater fairly often, I do notice the difference. It's more of a contrast when you're in a strength build, though.

[Gorath]

Gorath, the thing is I'm not really feeling the speed difference between with knightly kite shield and without either.
Where does it happen? The only thing where I really felt slower is with fake feints (i.e. switching attack direction without actually swinging) but I may be imagining it.

That's actually where shields make 1hers slower.  It's on the raising (or is it lowering?  One of those, I always forget which) of the shield, not in the actual attack animation.  So it affects your feinting and ability to counterattack / stop an attack to emergency block speeds.

So making the noticeable faster may not even be an option, but the huscarl can be made slower.

This is also a more balanced idea imo than reducing HP/durability.

[Elmetiacos]

Yes. Every one handed fighter has a Huscarl at the moment, because they have no effective choice. Anything else just gets smashed to bits in a few blows. There's no reason not to get a Huscarl shield as soon as you can.

[Furax]

Any weapon with "bonus against shields" will utterly destroy any shield in a few blows, had the plate covered round shield smashed to bits by one swing of a bardiche once.

[balbaroth]

in this era of CRPG "ithrowshitatyou" nerfing shields would be a terrible idea ,  i wished tho that they made a better balance of the shields without nerfing them...

                i use to like the fur covered shield lots of hp but width is so awful you get shot all the time

             

[Noble Crassius]

I'll keep my response short and simple as I am in a bad mood right now and am no longer in the mood for extended debate (I'm sorry I do dearly wish I could continue with this butchering of the Socratic method...)

If you mean that it can trade off, then sure.
Exactly what I meant and you know it.
Stop here if you really can't stand anything but yes or no's:
I prefer you to explain your answers don't get me wrong just a summary would do a speech is not necessary.
Here's the rub though, because I believe I know where you're going with #3:  Shielders do not have a high attack.  In fact comparitively speaking, they have a low or baseline attack.  Also the level of their defense is in question given two factors:
1)  Shields break (granted some take a while, others not as much) while weapons and armor do not.  Good defense for a limited time vs standard defense all the time.
2)  Shields (other than specific uber large shields such as the dreaded Huscarl) do not grant immunity to ranged, only a solid defense against it.  This was a good change, one I supported forever and will support.  I now headshot or foot-kill many shielders (not using a huscarl) quite consistantly with my x-bow (previously throwing too before I dropped it for x-bow yet again on the last toon that used throwing).  The requirement for aiming a shield at the attack being recieved is also a welcome addition rather than forcefields as it adds back a level of skill in shield use that was lacking beforehand.
#1 after their shield breaks the defense simply drops to on par with that of a 2h/pa its not an handicap that it breaks it SHOULD break and faster than it does!

If I may pose my own question:You may it's quite encouraged actually  The biggest issue with round shields is that they are by and large the best choice for a shield in every area correct?  Speed, durability, coverage, etc. No, my biggest issue is with high tier shields that are practically unbreakable unless you have an axe on you at the time. board and steel have MAJOR draw backs and maybe only a need a slight reduction but the huscarls weight nine is only slightly annoying. Which is why it overly used. But I have to say YES the round shield line is the best choice for shielders atm and shield variety needs to be introduced but our methods differ. I want to NERF the overly used shields and you want to BUFF other shields to its level.

edited out the fluff hope you don't mind

If you really want to get into shields being an "Ez mode" blocking system then by all means I'm willing to discuss ways to change it that will make it more skill-based, though in doing so the general power of shielders in melee combat is going to increase from a systems change to more acurately reflect the combat ability of sword and board combat.  Currently it's slow, clunky and lacks offensive the offensive tools it's capable of.  However to make it better would require some pretty sweeping changes to the combat system itself.  Currently we have an approximation of combat.
Tell me more you perked my interest. If you simply want to make it more realistic I have to say this probably won't happen unless chadz implements his thingymajig but then we'll have a whole new game and this discussion won't even matter.

If by chance I edited out/skipped something you specifically wanted me to address please bring it to my attention.

[Noble Crassius]

in this era of CRPG "ithrowshitatyou" nerfing shields would be a terrible idea ,  i wished tho that they made a better balance of the shields without nerfing them...

                i use to like the fur covered shield lots of hp but width is so awful you get shot all the time

             

Bring  back the shield gens, or make all the shields (except huscarl) width a little bigger. I have a feeling the devs knew that once they edited these values that some re-editing would have to be done.

Any weapon with "bonus against shields" will utterly destroy any shield in a few blows, had the plate covered round shield smashed to bits by one swing of a bardiche once.

That shield has to be a joke it's the most pointless pos ever. and yes axes destroy shields its what they do.

That's actually where shields make 1hers slower.  It's on the raising (or is it lowering?  One of those, I always forget which) of the shield, not in the actual attack animation.  So it affects your feinting and ability to counterattack / stop an attack to emergency block speeds.
This is also a more balanced idea imo than reducing HP/durability.

You can't just buff shields across the board and be done with, to increase speed or to reduce weight were going to have to give on something. Making shields SLOWER is the opposite of what we should do! or it seems that people prefer turtles over warriors...humph well played crpg community you made a cynic more cynical today. Leave it to shielders to be the most conservative force out there. Turning a blind eye to the obvious fact that OUR ATTACK SPEEDS ARE ON PAR WITH EVERY OTHER CLASS AND OUR DEFENSE GREATER THAN ANY OTHER CLASS. The game trys to balance it out by making us slow as shit but I don't want to run slow as shit, or feint slow as shit. but if you turtles are happy with that meh keep your class. I wash my hands of calling you people brothers.

If only you people could move past the nerf aspect  I tried working with you by suggesting lower encumbrance and raising speed (You all want it you said so) but apparently your nto willing to sacrifice HP for it? so it comes down to : most 1handers want a buff to their class  whats new