cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: chadz on July 01, 2012, 02:59:28 pm

Title: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: chadz on July 01, 2012, 02:59:28 pm

So we were discussing horses yesterday, and were trying to come up with ideas how to change horses in general. Note - this is in no way a balance thread, so if you think horses are OP or UP, and feel you have to communicate this, please, gtfo.

For everyone else - what changes could be done to increase the player skill needed to ride a horse? Right now, it's W to accelerate, S to decelerate. Therefore, it's more like a motorbike than a horse. Maybe someone who has done real riding has some insight how we could translate rider skill into a game mechanic? Riding should be difficulty in itself, just as flying a plane in a game would be. Riding needs more nuances.

Anyone got some ideas.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Lord_Panos on July 01, 2012, 03:04:46 pm

Instead of nerfing horses more do something about 2h animations and ranged spam.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: chadz on July 01, 2012, 03:07:42 pm

Let me rephrase: Don't think about how we should change horses.

Think about how we should do horses when we do them from scratch.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: rustyspoon on July 01, 2012, 03:13:41 pm

Just making momentum more of a factor would help out a lot in that regard. Even a well-trained horse that responds instantly to your cues takes some time to turn, slow down and accelerate.

Also, this kind of depends how much coding you're able to put into it. Instead of the movement buttons directly controlling the horse, what if each button corresponded to specific leg movement. Tapping "A" makes you kick the horses left flank. "D" kicks the right flank. "W" spurs the horse forward. The more and faster you tap, the faster the horse responds, though heavy tapping can piss the horse off or do damage.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: _Tak_ on July 01, 2012, 03:13:46 pm

read here:
http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,35129.0.html

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Frell on July 01, 2012, 03:13:54 pm

I suggested spurring stamina similar to Red Dead Redemption, so riders have to choose when to get their horse to go fast and more timing is involved.  Too much forceful spurring could kill the horse or damage it badly.


Also make hitting objects take damage, so steering and aiming takes more skill

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Teeth on July 01, 2012, 03:16:49 pm

The only simple thing I can think off is adding a slight delay between pressing buttons and the horse moving, it is an animal you are riding. Maybe getting more riding skill should decrease this delay.

I'm guessing you want a more complex control scheme, but seems to me that would be horribly annoying. Like pressing left and right really fast to move forward like a silly minigame. Maybe pressing Q and E to move the rider's body up and down, I believe proper horseriding requires you to do that in the right rhythm. Ingame doing it right could translate into getting more maneuver and top speed. You would lack fingers though.

Would be interesting, focusing on riding the horse could make you move faster than they guy chasing you who also has to focus on attacking you for example.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: joey_bologna on July 01, 2012, 03:21:51 pm

Make horses faster, but make people fly off their horse when they hit a wall or another horse etc.. Also let cav pick up other players, but decrease horse speed when they do.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Tot. on July 01, 2012, 03:42:29 pm

Remaking cavalry should be focused around one principle - cavalry charge is the main weapon, not zig-zagging between enemies and stabbing unaware people. More like actual horses, less helicopter gunship.

Therefore, riders should have a triggerable "charge" ability with long cooldown, which accelerates the horse, makes it a lot less manueverable but also the bump should be deadly and the horse itself way less vulnerable during it to anything except anti-cavalry weapons. So group of riders charging together means there's teeth and bones to collect if they catch spear-less infantry in open fields. Something similar to current "shield +1" etc. mechanics could be used so that horses which are charging in group don't instantly die from fatal wounds, though they do die after completing the charge. On the other hand, if cavalryman makes wrong decision and commits to a charge against pikes, he will die since he won't be able to insta-stop and ride away.

This obviously requires 1) making lone horseman way less maneuverable and durable when not charging than he is now  2) removing attacking while in air for infantry and general reduction of jump height and distance. Less monkeying, more thinking, on both sides.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Prinz_Karl on July 01, 2012, 03:44:52 pm

I don't know if it's possible to realise but maybe we should add an autonomous thinking of the horses concerning potential harm. Simply the idea that if they're coming closer to pointed objects they realize danger and independently from the rider decide to slow down. The game already has implemented this but not the way I mean. The horse shouldn't even reach the spear, pike or whatever but it should stop considerably earlier so that it doesn't suffer any damage.

It's historically confirmed that horses jumped up before the tips of spears or just ran around them because they were coved.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Brrrak on July 01, 2012, 03:45:03 pm

If it's at all possible, perhaps horse turning (maneuverability) should be tied to the current speed. A horse as a trot should be able to turn quite easily and quite well, but at full gallop, needs to lean into the turn and can't really do a proper 90 degree or 180 turn without slowing down first.  The 180 part could even tie into horse rearing*, which you definitely shouldn't be able to do at full gallop if you want to stay on Ol' Bessie.  All in all, player skill should allow horsemen with skill and practice to maneuver almost as much as they can presently, if you're taking the semi-realism approach that I saw alluded to in the OP.

*Perhaps make it possible to actually turn a full 180 degrees using the momentum of a rear, but make it unattractive-enough an option to leave it sort of a last-ditch maneuver if "Oh shit, a wall/pointy thing/open ditch!"

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Fluffy_Muffin on July 01, 2012, 03:50:18 pm

Quote from: Frell on July 01, 2012, 03:13:54 pm

I suggested spurring stamina similar to Red Dead Redemption, so riders have to choose when to get their horse to go fast and more timing is involved.  Too much forceful spurring could kill the horse or damage it badly.


Also make hitting objects take damage, so steering and aiming takes more skill ;)

Interesting, i guess this could work

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Oberyn on July 01, 2012, 03:50:48 pm

Make the pointed stakes present in many maps actually damage horses if possible. If used properly by map makers it makes a whole area of the map a deathtrap for cav, as it is they're just really porous objects you can navigate through relatively easily. Running fullspeed into walls, trees, rocks, hedges, etc should also do damage to the horse, if not kill it outright.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Plavor on July 01, 2012, 03:51:19 pm

Pretty easy change in my opinion :

Let cavalry stick playing in first person.

No rider sees himself, i tried to play as a first person cav, it is pretty hard and requires skill.
Also you cant be aware of all ppl so cav should just use first person which is at least for most of them a challenge.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Oberyn on July 01, 2012, 03:53:01 pm

First person is horribly bad even as melee. It's hard because first person is a half assed perspective that wasn't meant to be used beyond maybe ranged weapons. You could make the same case for every weapon used in cRPG and it would make as much sense.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Gurnisson on July 01, 2012, 03:57:18 pm

Remove the insane blocking area you get from horseback. Arrows to horse's face being sucked up by the shield of the rider, and pikes to the horse's body sucked up by the rider's shield/down block is getting very old. :|

I have no issues with cav except for that one right there, which is just completely broken.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Riddaren on July 01, 2012, 04:00:28 pm

FYI: I have played this game for very long and I have played all classes.

Personally I think the game itself is very balanced and fun as it is now. The problem is the servers which have too many horses and archers.
If you can add restrictions to the number of cavalry players and archers it would be the best thing to do.

I do however welcome changes that would make cavalry harder to play. I do it for every class. Here are some of my thoughts on this:


CHANGE

Won't make it much harder but will decrease the number of cavalry players which is what we want:
Make 1 riding cost 2 skill points instead of 1 (eg: 7 riding = 14 skill points = 2 more PS for an infantry player)
You will have to give free respec to all characters, even those without riding skill or it would be unfair.

Decrease bump damage of horses
I think it's enough that the infantry guy gets knocked down. Decrease bump damage to 50%?

Increase hit points of horses
Increased hit points might bring horsemen closer to combat (which would mean less backstabbing)

"but make people fly off their horse when they hit a wall or another horse etc.." /joey_bologna
This is a great idea if possible. It will make it harder but also more fun.

"Also let cav pick up other players, but decrease horse speed when they do." /joey_bologna
Why not? If possible add it. But don't just decrease horse speed. Need to nerf attack of rider as well.

"I don't know if it's possible to realise but maybe we should add an autonomous thinking of the horses concerning potential harm. Simply the idea that if they're coming closer to pointed objects they realize danger and independently from the rider decide to slow down." /Prinz_Karl
I have had ideas about something like this as well... You really have to be careful with things like this (if it's even possible).
Just imagine how much a 2 hander would cry if his +3 Danish greatsword didn't obey him 1/10 attacks.


DON'T CHANGE

Leave the speed and maneouver of horses alone
It's fine as it is and very uneccessary to force players to adapt to such changes (not just for riders but for everyone).

Rider should NOT be stunned if horses bumps
This is a very bad idea as it is a HUGE change to game mechanics. If it is implemented once again you might as well remove left and right swings from all classes.

Keep the ability to attack while jumping
This takes skill and is not something you do all the time. It would just make the game less fun if it got removed. It would not nerf horsemen.

(click to show/hide)

"Let cavalry stick playing in first person." /Plavor
No trolling please...

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Piok on July 01, 2012, 04:01:45 pm

Remove force field from riders shield protecting lot of space even on horse.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Grumbs on July 01, 2012, 04:02:38 pm

I think it shouldn't feel like there is a telepathic link between rider and horse. There should be a delay before the animal responds so people have to plan their approach a bit more. They should behave a bit more like an animal, a bit more erratic and hard to control, especially when you have a weapon chambered.

You should have to consider the welfare of the horse when riding into people, and when you face plant into the ground after your horse dies you should take some damage. The horse should not behave like a real players body when it dies too, absorbing hits that should hit the rider on the ground

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Hobb on July 01, 2012, 04:05:33 pm

Adding horse emotions is The stupidest thing i have ever heard of.

The goal is to make cav vs cav funner and more reliable (less of a role of the dice)

1) make cav have higher top speed that kicks in after 10 secs or so of current top speed
2) add crash damage for running into shit including other horses
3 make the rider experience a "horse ride" not a motorcycle ride. With every stride a horse takes the rider should be rising up and down same with the lance or sword.
4) adding a horse strafe mechanic/animation will buff sword cav and give cav more options fighting infantry

5)finally, the horses need to be solid objects. You shouldnt be able to bump slash anything because the weapon always goes through the horses neck with the swing.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: MrShine on July 01, 2012, 04:05:53 pm

No one said QWOP yet?

I vote QWOP

(click to show/hide)

As others said a bit, have speed & momentum count for more... basically make it harder to control the horse.

I think it would also be cool if reaction speed/consistent command following is based on riding skill.  IE if you have low riding you might want to be going straight but your horse will be wobbling a little bit and you might not be as adept at cutting those sharp corners on command.  High riding on the other hand has more mastery of the horse you are riding.  This could reward those who are a) more controlled and b) higher riding skill to maneuver trickier spots, whereas the worse riders would have to be confined to the more open plains type areas

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Chagan_Arslan on July 01, 2012, 04:10:32 pm

1. add a psychology effects to the game (horses and infantry)

examples:
- low riding skill of a rider would cause horse to sometime ignore riders commands in front of a danger (suicide charge into pikes)
- when 3+ horses charge infantry, infantry can be scared and players would have a chance to loose control temporarily over their characters

2. add what prinze_karl said

Quote from: Prinz_Karl on July 01, 2012, 03:44:52 pm

I don't know if it's possible to realise but maybe we should add an autonomous thinking of the horses concerning potential harm. Simply the idea that if they're coming closer to pointed objects they realize danger and independently from the rider decide to slow down. The game already has implemented this but not the way I mean. The horse shouldn't even reach the spear, pike or whatever but it should stop considerably earlier so that it doesn't suffer any damage.

currently when we hit the wall we have that cheap animation of rearing, which i think is there to show that horse wouldnt ride itself into wall - hence it rears on impact

3. when on very slow speed or when standing still add biting enemy in front and kicking enemy in the back that attacks the horse (horse would do it on its own)

4. use this VIDEO (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsUOW4mljfg) as a reference to horse speed and maneuver not what we have right now ingame

5. remove ctrl+j when riding fast, make it only useable when horse stands still

6. i would say old lance angle would improve skill of lancer vs lancer but it would be too harsh for 1h cav i guess (when it was that lancers where anti cav and 1h anti inf)

7. make rider able to fall of his saddle, when recieving a heavy blow ala Deluge mod

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Mlekce on July 01, 2012, 04:11:00 pm

Little delay between commands would be ok,colliding with objects dealing dmg would be nice too,and i would stop there.
Maybie moving of horse could be controled buy mouse movement like in assassins creed?

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Rebelyell on July 01, 2012, 04:11:47 pm

Quote from: Riddaren on July 01, 2012, 04:00:28 pm

FYI: I have played this game for very long and I have played all classes.

Personally I think the game itself is very balanced and fun as it is now. The problem is the servers which have too many horses and archers.
If you can add restrictions to the number of cavalry players and archers it would be the best thing to do.

I do however welcome changes that would make cavalry harder to play. I do it for every class. Here are some of my thoughts on this:


CHANGE

Won't make it much harder but will decrease the number of cavalry players which is what we want:
Make 1 riding cost 2 skill points instead of 1 (eg: 7 riding = 14 skill points = 2 more PS for an infantry player)
You will have to give free respec to all characters, even those without riding skill or it would be unfair.

Decrease bump damage of horses
I think it's enough that the infantry guy gets knocked down. Decrease bump damage to 50%?

Increase hit points of horses
Increased hit points might bring horsemen closer to combat (which would mean less backstabbing)

"but make people fly off their horse when they hit a wall or another horse etc.." /joey_bologna
This is a great idea if possible. It will make it harder but also more fun.

"Also let cav pick up other players, but decrease horse speed when they do." /joey_bologna
Why not? If possible add it. But don't just decrease horse speed. Need to nerf attack of rider as well.

"I don't know if it's possible to realise but maybe we should add an autonomous thinking of the horses concerning potential harm. Simply the idea that if they're coming closer to pointed objects they realize danger and independently from the rider decide to slow down." /Prinz_Karl
I have had ideas about something like this as well... You really have to be careful with things like this (if it's even possible).
Just imagine how much a 2 hander would cry if his +3 Danish greatsword didn't obey him 1/10 attacks.


DON'T CHANGE

Leave the speed and maneouver of horses alone
It's fine as it is and very uneccessary to force players to adapt to such changes (not just for riders but for everyone).

Rider should NOT be stunned if horses bumps
This is a very bad idea as it is a HUGE change to game mechanics. If it is implemented once again you might as well remove left and right swings from all classes.

Keep the ability to attack while jumping
This takes skill and is not something you do all the time. It would just make the game less fun if it got removed. It would not nerf horsemen.

(click to show/hide)

"Let cavalry stick playing in first person." /Plavor
No trolling please...

that

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Teeth on July 01, 2012, 04:12:35 pm

Quote from: Chagan_Arslan on July 01, 2012, 04:10:32 pm

4. use this VIDEO (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsUOW4mljfg) as a reference to horse speed and maneuver not what we have right now ingame

I'm sure you'd love that, the Arabian is bad enough. We are speaking war horses here so this is not really top notch reference material.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Prinz_Karl on July 01, 2012, 04:20:11 pm

Quote from: Tot. on July 01, 2012, 03:42:29 pm

Remaking cavalry should be focused around one principle - cavalry charge is the main weapon, not zig-zagging between enemies and stabbing unaware people. More like actual horses, less helicopter gunship.

Therefore, riders should have a triggerable "charge" ability with long cooldown, which accelerates the horse, makes it a lot less manueverable but also the bump should be deadly and the horse itself way less vulnerable during it to anything except anti-cavalry weapons. So group of riders charging together means there's teeth and bones to collect if they catch spear-less infantry in open fields. Something similar to current "shield +1" etc. mechanics could be used so that horses which are charging in group don't instantly die from fatal wounds, though they do die after completing the charge. On the other hand, if cavalryman makes wrong decision and commits to a charge against pikes, he will die since he won't be able to insta-stop and ride away.

This obviously requires 1) making lone horseman way less maneuverable and durable when not charging than he is now  2) removing attacking while in air for infantry and general reduction of jump height and distance. Less monkeying, more thinking, on both sides.

Good idea. I guess the main factor that is influencing this is the inertia of horse which we should increase. By the way I used to know horses way more massive than in game.

So increasing inertia of the horse simply means increasing its mass, this would have the effect that the horse

-is less controllable/maneuverable because it's so fat

-is causing more damage (higher momentun)

-is louder so it's more frightening

I think that's the simpliest way to do it.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Sauce on July 01, 2012, 04:36:47 pm

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Torben on July 01, 2012, 04:40:06 pm

Quote from: chadz on July 01, 2012, 03:07:42 pm

...how we should do horses when we do them from scratch.

-give horses the ability to sidestep at low speeds with two new directional buttons like "x" and "shift"
-make horses come alive by giving them random movements that the rider has to counter,  especially striving left and right and shying.
-make those random movements more noticeable with lower tear horses
-give them stamina for aforementioned reasons
            -or-
 give them a charge mode with cooldown,   having a high maneuverability penalty but a great speed bonus whilst their basic speed is nerfed greatly
 (example: basic courser speed 40, maneuver 41;  charging speed 50,  maneuver 31)
-make their corpses crush trough and in return make them a lot more fragile vs anti-cav weapons aaaand make the rider take a high amount of damage.

pros:
-increasing the mods mood by having horses whicker and move constantly,  by making cav charges possible because of crush through corpses that level the field for the following horses instead of the rearing that is done now
- increase riding difficulty and introducing a new tactical element by giving them stamina or limited charge

badabing badabang

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: masasa on July 01, 2012, 04:45:39 pm

Don't change the fundamentals of how you control the horse(adding more delay on commands and making horses unrealistically slow and hard to turn just means cav becomes less skill intensive and you get a lot more friendly bumps and team kills, and if you go too far you might accidentally kill the whole class), instead make other changes to add more dynamics to playing cav:

- Add stamina bar for horse. To reach full speed and to accelerate fast from slow speed on a horse you need to press a button, your stamina goes down while pressing the button. Every time you jump your stamina goes down. Every time you bump someone you lose stamina. Every time you stop your horse you slowly gain stamina. Mind you the difference between "full speed-uses stamina" and "normal speed-dont use stamina" should not be very big, but enough to make it relevant. When you run out of stamina you can't go full speed with a horse,  it takes longer to accelerate to normal speed, you can't jump and your bumps do less damage and your horse gets slowed down more when bumping inf.

- Horse takes damage and maybe dies if it runs to an object at high speed.
- Rider falls down from horse if horse runs into an obstacle with high speed. Horse rears and rider stays on when horse runs into an obstacle with low speed.
- Add damage to rider when he falls of the horse.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Turboflex on July 01, 2012, 04:50:59 pm

an easy one is to make riders take heavy fall damage if horse is killed. based on speed. will add consequencesto horsedeath and force them to be more careful.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: IR_Kuoin on July 01, 2012, 04:52:33 pm

Maybe decrease the maneuver of the horses, and add a maneuver skill to the "skill tree", so that having riding skill only increase the speed of the horse ( and not maneuvering) so that for a rider to be agile he must add more maneuvering skills.

Totalt shit, or does it make some sense?  :P

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Riddaren on July 01, 2012, 04:54:38 pm

Quote from: Turboflex on July 01, 2012, 04:50:59 pm

an easy one is to make riders take heavy fall damage if horse is killed. based on speed. will add consequencesto horsedeath and force them to be more careful.

Yes, this is a good thing if possible.

But something that should be changed is the time to get up from the ground. It should be decreased.
Currently you can get hit 3 times (from the same enemy) on ground after falling from horse until you get up.
Better have higher damage from falling down and get up quicker.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Nessaj on July 01, 2012, 05:00:18 pm

Stamina for horses would be great, what Frell mentioned basically, excellent suggestion.

Otherwise, in terms of making Cavalry more skilled; some sort of AoE (Area of Effect) bonus similar to Shield Wall bonus (+shield). If the Cavalry would be bunched up into a charge they'd get a +damage bonus. It would (hopefully) get players to organize themselves into charges - perhaps XP/gold bonus when using a 'teamplay enhancing feature' :P

(Should also do it for Archers, so if they're bunched up - somewhat close - and release their arrows within 1-2 seconds of each other they get +volley effect = spawn more arrows or more damage).

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: LordBerenger on July 01, 2012, 05:01:16 pm

Completely agree with Frell. A Red Dead Redemption horse system would've been great.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Kuujis on July 01, 2012, 05:05:03 pm

1. Horse mood threshold. Accelerating too fast (spurs hitting horses sides hurt), damage, instabraking (due to obstacle e.g.) could decrease it. Staying put would allow the horse to calm down and be rideable again. Terrified warhorse with rider removed by arrows being stabbed could become a beast in tight ranks. If a horse gets too pissed off - throws rider to hell, or rides wherever he wants for some time.
2. Balance of a rider. Not sure how to pull this off, but making turns could be something like Tony Hawk Pro skater game sliding down some pipe: i.e. your main worry is holding your balance. Maybe this could be implemented like this: in order to turn horse one would have to hold mouse2 button and move mouse to sides /front-rear, at the same time adjusting speed and turning with keyboard. Goal would be not to fall down + it MIGHT solve the ugly "dagger blocks whole horse from spears" problem, which was described by others. Not doing this would result in staggers and in extreme cases+low skill - dehorsing.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: ROHYPNOL on July 01, 2012, 05:10:11 pm

well i guess you guys really didnt read the post.. its not a nerf he just wants to change the way you can ride a horse.. not do all this extra shit like you people are talking about... however chadz is now comparing to riding a horse like riding an airplane lol... riding horses is not all the hard irl really.. but they are much faster and maneuver better irl too.. im sure you knew that tho.. but hell i guess im up for seeing what any retarded idea like the rider gets bumped when he bumps? what ? trolol


P.S. make this game Foot and Blade.. instead of mount and blade...

I believe people are playing the game because of what it used to be.. not because the baddie complainers are trying to make it be.. there is a big skill curve.. and some of you will never be good.. its the way of gaming

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Tyr_ on July 01, 2012, 05:13:00 pm

What about adding a system similar to the one that Two Worlds II has?
You increase your riding speed by giving your horse the spurs, but if you give them too often its just going to throw you from his back and ride away from you.
So for example you can give a more maneuverable horse the spurs faster without getting thrown down from it-> will speed up faster, while it has the lower max. speed.
This wouldnt really nerf cav but make it harder too play, as it did with archers that must go for headshots to make high damage.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Anal Bleeding on July 01, 2012, 05:14:56 pm

make a 1 difficulty horse like the sumpter used to be.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Lemmy_Winks on July 01, 2012, 05:15:01 pm

Info on riding real horses:

Alot of good ideas already been posted so ill just offer some random stuff what i know from actually riding horses in regards to comments made already. First off you cannot kill or even hurt a horse by spurring it, horses are 2,000 pound animals and extremely stuff, a spur will not do anything to kill it horses are just sensitive in the rib cage area. Also a trained horsemen will not bounce up and down while riding it making using thier weapon more difficult, trained horsmen will "post" up on their horse to prevent them from being thrown up and down. If you didint do that while galloping youd be thrown from your horse completely. Also a trained warhorse will not slow down because of perceived danger. Horses are not very intelligent and they are herd animals, they follow commands as well as other horses, even into a dangerous situation, which again they are trained from birth not to fear this kind of stuff. An example is a normal horse will not intentionally trample a person, but a war horse will run right over a crowd of people.

Someone also said something about tapping the left spur and right spur to change direction or something? Taping either side once will make a horse walk, tapping twice will make it trot, tapping again after that will send it into a gallop/run, it does not make the horse change direction the reins do that. Horses do respond rapidly to commands, not as fast as the game, but definitly still fast enough i dont see it as a problem. One thing that definitly does strike me is that a horse is no were near as manuverable as alot of the horses in this game, like the Arabian, not that ive ever ridden an arabian but still. Horses are big and somewhat clumsy animals. Also people have been talking alot about riders falling off and the damage associated with that, ive fallen off of horses (its called an emergency dismount) and its not that bad unless your in a group and get trampled by the horse behind you.  It probabbly wont severally injure you if you do it right (just get your feet out of the sturups so you dont get dragged), especially if your wearing armor/padding. And i mean if you fall off a horse and get some cuts and bruises are you actually any closer to being dead? no.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Overdriven on July 01, 2012, 05:17:06 pm

Stamina sounds like an interesting idea.

I also like the sound of the Deluge mod mechanic of riders being taken off horses with heavy hits. That would mean that if a rider was going full tilt on the horse and ran into a spear that hit the shield or them it would take them off the horse. Would be an interesting way to combat the shield forcefield protecting the horse.

I wouldn't add mechanics like a rider being thrown into a wall ect. It's unlikely that a horse would charge straight into a wall in the first place, hence the rearing mechanic now and as others have said they would turn away from the wall or other object before hand.

Fall damage shouldn't be implemented. If it was horses would need a boost in health and armour.

Charge damage bonus/overall damage bonus for horse grouping as with the shield skill sounds like a great idea. Right now the presence of so many weapons which can rear a horse and the low horse health means that charging in groups is simply suicidal, so that would have to be changed. Although charges take more organisation than pubby crpg can really handle unless clans are there to do it so horse balancing shouldn't be entirely based on that.

Warhorses were trained to attack as well as carry the rider so adding other mechanics for horses to damage players would be interesting, although I don't know if that's possible.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Gurnisson on July 01, 2012, 05:18:29 pm

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Improvement!

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Muunilinst on July 01, 2012, 05:19:48 pm

maybe add something if the horse with full speed ramms a wall giveit some dmg.

im sure u all know the annoying shit cav lancer comes towards you with full speed and couched lance u stand infront of a wall.
he comes nearer and nearer u dodge the lance the cav guy ramms with full speed the wall and nothing happens...

add some dmg to that would be great.  8-)

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Rebelyell on July 01, 2012, 05:20:06 pm

model of riding isn't so bad it that game,
in my opinion is one of the best around


But model is one thing, second is how horses act in some situations.
There is really lot of horse reactions that depend on situation.

Horses don't like charge into a wall, some of them like to charge in group and it is kindly difficult to stop them in situations of that.
If horse know then you are bad rider(some of them can notice that in no time) the can ignore you or just throw you out from back.
Some of them are easier to ride when they know you, other just don't care about that.

I really don't know how  force horses to jump on the flat way(we have that name)
some of them  jump over rock wall etc. som  stop in last sec,

sometimes is really easy to make them scary, if someone hit them on the back there is really big chance then hores will kick you
some of them like fight, charge, other one not really.

In my opinion we can't change chores system ingame
we have to replace it with new one,
Best way to do that is a horse lvl system based on your riding skill or something that will force you to spend skills exp or WPF,
there should be lot types of horses what we can lvl up

new system is the behavior of horses is good idea in my opinion

in that way we can solve problem with cav chords, you ask why?
Good cav player need good and trained horse, and that takes time resource skills = less footman abilities

I like rideran idea too

I want to write more about that but i really have no time now

Quote from: Lemmy_Winks on July 01, 2012, 05:15:01 pm

Info on riding real horses:

Alot of good ideas already been posted so ill just offer some random stuff what i know from actually riding horses in regards to comments made already. First off you cannot kill or even hurt a horse by spurring it, horses are 2,000 pound animals and extremely stuff, a spur will not do anything to kill it horses are just sensitive in the rib cage area. Also a trained horsemen will not bounce up and down while riding it making using thier weapon more difficult, trained horsmen will "post" up on their horse to prevent them from being thrown up and down. If you didint do that while galloping youd be thrown from your horse completely. Also a trained warhorse will not slow down because of perceived danger. Horses are not very intelligent and they are herd animals, they follow commands as well as other horses, even into a dangerous situation, which again they are trained from birth not to fear this kind of stuff. An example is a normal horse will not intentionally trample a person, but a war horse will run right over a crowd of people.

Someone also said something about tapping the left spur and right spur to change direction or something? Taping either side once will make a horse walk, tapping twice will make it trot, tapping again after that will send it into a gallop/run, it does not make the horse change direction the reins do that. Horses do respond rapidly to commands, not as fast as the game, but definitly still fast enough i dont see it as a problem. One thing that definitly does strike me is that a horse is no were near as manuverable as alot of the horses in this game, like the Arabian, not that ive ever ridden an arabian but still. Horses are big and somewhat clumsy animals. Also people have been talking alot about riders falling off and the damage associated with that, ive fallen off of horses (its called an emergency dismount) and its not that bad unless your in a group and get trampled by the horse behind you.  It probabbly wont severally injure you if you do it right (just get your feet out of the sturups so you dont get dragged), especially if your wearing armor/padding. And i mean if you fall off a horse and get some cuts and bruises are you actually any closer to being dead? no.

that

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: ROHYPNOL on July 01, 2012, 05:23:27 pm

lemmy winks said horses arent as maneuverable as this game.... are you kidding me lol.. they are way more maneuverable and faster than this game man lol

here is your proof.. take a good look and slap yourself

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awR1zuyfXwo&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awR1zuyfXwo&feature=related)

Real Horse Bump LOLOLOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYi5A__lWzg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYi5A__lWzg)

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Vibe on July 01, 2012, 05:24:50 pm

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Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Rebelyell on July 01, 2012, 05:26:45 pm

Quote from: ROHYPNOL on July 01, 2012, 05:23:27 pm

lemmy winks said horses arent as maneuverable as this game.... are you kidding me lol.. they are way more maneuverable and faster than this game man lol

here is your proof.. take a good look and slap yourself

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awR1zuyfXwo&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awR1zuyfXwo&feature=related)

yea but that takes skill( lot of that guy is profesional) and lot of trening time

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Overdriven on July 01, 2012, 05:35:45 pm

Quote from: Rebelyell on July 01, 2012, 05:26:45 pm

yea but that takes skill( lot of that guy is profesional) and lot of trening time

Which knights ect who ride horses had a lot of generally speaking.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: ROHYPNOL on July 01, 2012, 05:35:54 pm

ok so you are saying horses arent fast... its the rider? i can show you some of people that arent pros and still fast as shit.. what is your point

im sorry you dont just jump on a horse without being trained bro lol

if so you make a video of you doing it

make it so that you cannot do these hybrid melee cav builds.. that is pretty dumb.. make it so its dedicated more

I THINK AN AWESOME FEATURE WOULD BE... MAKE IT SO THAT THE HEAVIER ARMOR YOU WEAR THE SLOWER THE HORSE GETS AND MAKES IT LESS MANEUVER.. forcing people to have to use more skill and flanking rather than saying oh shit i have 8if 8ps on horseback with full plate... make that user be slow as shit... you see what happened when you nerfed riding chaz.. you forced people to get minimal riding and tank it up and ACTUALLY being harder to kill lol.. i rem back in the day gettin 1 shot off cav all the time by arrows now i laugh with my troll 8if 8ps highest 8.3kdr in game LOL

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Lemmy_Winks on July 01, 2012, 05:37:52 pm

Quote from: ROHYPNOL on July 01, 2012, 05:23:27 pm

lemmy winks said horses arent as maneuverable as this game.... are you kidding me lol.. they are way more maneuverable and faster than this game man lol

here is your proof.. take a good look and slap yourself

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awR1zuyfXwo&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awR1zuyfXwo&feature=related)

Real Horse Bump LOLOLOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYi5A__lWzg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYi5A__lWzg)

If anything id say the video proves my point, these horses are never going very fast while running the actual course, and when they round the barrel they are down to a fast walk speed, not to mention they usually arent even that close to the barrell. An Arabian in this game turns on a dime and maintains alot of speed. These horses definitly do not turn on a dime and are reduced to a very slow speed just to make the turn. Not to mention these are professionally trained agility horses. The main difference you see here is the horse actually has to turn its whole body realistically, and its got a very big body. In the game the physics dont work that way, and the horse seems to magically turn on its z axis at such sharpe angles as would be physically impossible with an actual horse.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Blashyrkh on July 01, 2012, 05:39:21 pm

make something so people on the horse need to balance themself.

------|------      <--- is ok

--|----------      <--- not ok, falls of the horse and becomes infantry or whistle for his horse

while making fast turns they should move in the oposite direction  so they dont fall off or something maybe via mouse movement?

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Overdriven on July 01, 2012, 05:40:37 pm

Quote from: Lemmy_Winks on July 01, 2012, 05:37:52 pm

If anything id say the video proves my point, these horses are never going very fast, and when they round the barrel they are down to a fast walk speed, not to mention they usually arent even that close to the barrell. An Arabian in this game turns on a dime and maintains alot of speed. These horses definitly do not turn on a dime and are reduced to a very slow speed just to make the turn. Not to mention these are professionally trained agility horses. The main difference you see here is the horse actually has to turn its whole body realistically, and its got a very big body. In the game the physics dont work that way, and the horse seems to magically turn on its z axis at such sharpe angles as would be physically impossible with an actual horse.

Arabians have to slow down a lot to turn. It's just that they get between speeds so quickly it can be difficult to notice. But when they turn on a dime they are often going quite slowly. They just accelerate out of it very quickly.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: ROHYPNOL on July 01, 2012, 05:41:20 pm

lemmy im pretty sure your delusional.. these horses not only stop on a dime but they turn on a dime.. go ride an arabian in game for yourself and full speed and you can see what it does.. you cant look at me doing it and say the same... i slow down when i turn making it have more maneuverability... when you go full speed you are not turning on a dime.. btw this horse also goes slower than alot but is made to maneuver and is very weak.. it is what it is

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Rebelyell on July 01, 2012, 05:42:26 pm

Quote from: Overdriven on July 01, 2012, 05:35:45 pm

Which knights ect who ride horses had a lot of generally speaking.

personal RL exp.

and some like 7~9 gens as cav

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Digglez on July 01, 2012, 05:42:38 pm

1)  make lances have chance to shatter based on speed of horse & total damage of hit or armor value of target.  Heirloomed lances would decrease this chance to some degree.  REQUIRE teamwork by forcing lancer cav to rely on team/clanmates bringing them extra lances or pull them from weapon rack.

2)  Get rid of the current, I just got reared so instantly dismounting bullshit.  Also add in small % chance for rider to be thrown from horse on a rearing...the greater the speed the higher % chance.

3)  Allow players to jump/block to try and tackle or pull riders from horseback, with great danger to both parties.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: ROHYPNOL on July 01, 2012, 05:47:39 pm

and diggles we are talkign about the horse not your ignorant idea of lance breaking lol

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Wraist on July 01, 2012, 05:48:55 pm

When I was riding, there were four basic speeds: Walking, Trotting, Cantering, Galloping. Walking, is self explanatory. Trotting is relatively slow and bumpy as fuck so you typically have to "post" [essentially rapidly change from standing up and sitting down]. Cantering is significantly smoother [you just sit] and faster, and galloping is like a faster canter. Before we did anything faster than a trot, we typically warmed up the horses for a few minutes.

For jumping, we typically changed our "stance" to something called a two point one where we kindof stand, leaning towards the horse's neck with our hands up, although I'm not sure if it was significant. There's also something called the three point stance [or something...] that you use for higher jumps and you're higher up on the horse.

I was never too good at horseback riding [I was a wee little kid at the time] and thus I had to use reins in order to direct my horse. My instructor said that you only need to use your legs [as in pressuring one side would change the horses direction] and did that while riding bareback.

The way I was taught to change speeds [I'm assuming that it's based off of how the horse was broken], was that a kick with both legs is used to trot. Exerting pressure with the left leg and kicking three times during a trot was used for cantering, and kicking or pressuring with both legs during a canter was used to gallop.

As for horsebumping, when I was riding if my horse ran or walked into one of the posts we had in the ground [like a sideways cylindrical piece of wood], I was able to feel it, not sure if it was enough to hurt the horse's ankles, but it wasn't enough to bump me.

Horses scare like fuck. My first day, I was outside and there was a plain overhead. My horse started to randomly jump sideways and I was like O.o.

I don't know how to rear a horse on command :| [which should be a mappable button imo].

Spurs and crops are not going to damage a horse.

The last thing I remember is that it's actually a lot easier to learn than I thought it would be.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Radament on July 01, 2012, 05:51:35 pm

Quote from: chadz on July 01, 2012, 02:59:28 pm

For everyone else - what changes could be done to increase the player skill needed to ride a horse? Right now, it's W to accelerate, S to decelerate.

How about :

Idle Horse ---- W -> Trot --- W -> Gallop --- S -> Trot --- S -> Stop   (A - D steering)

and maybe horse damage system when charging and crash into a rock or a wall or other static thing?

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Toffi on July 01, 2012, 05:52:40 pm

I think the W-A-S-D isn't too bad... No idea how to improve that.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Butan on July 01, 2012, 06:14:39 pm

The W-A-S-D  in M&B is perfect, there should be no tweak on that.


Only thing that could be added without totally reworking something that is already a masterwork, is adding things like stamina (and for foot soldiers too) and/or adding special moves.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Strider on July 01, 2012, 06:22:01 pm

A MOUNT & blade mod should never be changed like this.
As others have said. It doesn't need to be any different than W A S D

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Smoothrich on July 01, 2012, 06:29:08 pm

Warband does horse riding great, because it isn't some horrible attempt at "immersion" or "realism" like Red Dead Redemption (wasn't good controls but great game) or Zelda or Shadow of the Colossus.  These are all good games but slow paced single player adventure games with quite awkward horse controls, especially in steering and acceleration.  I don't know how many other titles have attempted to emulate horse riding or if any had a good approach to it, but people should post them if they have examples.

Warband's style is pretty much ideal for a multiplayer, competitive, fast paced (and FUN) game.  WASD, and simple.  W accelerates, D deaccelerates, high speed means low maneuver and vice versa.  Adding more to this will just make the player achieving what he wants his cavalry character to do in game more cumbersome, and ultimately less fun to play. 

If you want to limit the round-long power of a cavalry character then punish them for going at max speed at all times but not too greatly with ya know, the recharging stamina bar.  Anything more than a "very slight" limitation on horse mobility in this way would probably be pretty shitty to play, so I'd recommend not doing it at all.

If you think you have a point to prove with the horses just being motorcycles in game, then for the love of god please with a patch sometime soon replace all horse models with motorcycles and let us decide for ourselves.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Bryggan on July 01, 2012, 06:35:46 pm

Quote from: Tot. on July 01, 2012, 03:42:29 pm

Remaking cavalry should be focused around one principle - cavalry charge is the main weapon, not zig-zagging between enemies and stabbing unaware people. More like actual horses, less helicopter gunship.

Therefore, riders should have a triggerable "charge" ability with long cooldown, which blah blah blah... Less monkeying, more thinking, on both sides.

This would be cool, but it would be even cooler if the rider could have shield up and lance out, which would be a little more realistic, but also have that deluge thing that they could be knocked off the horse if their shield (or the rider) is hit hard, which would make actual jousting possible (perhaps Str would decide how much of a hit it would take to knock the rider off).  Also, any hit on the horse or rider would cancel the horse's charge, giving us infantry some hope.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Leesin on July 01, 2012, 06:36:51 pm

ifailtoreadop

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: _GTX_ on July 01, 2012, 06:39:48 pm

Quote from: Bryggan on July 01, 2012, 06:35:46 pm

This would be cool, but it would be even cooler if the rider could have shield up and lance out, which would be a little more realistic, but also have that deluge thing that they could be knocked off the horse if their shield (or the rider) is hit hard, which would make actual jousting possible (perhaps Str would decide how much of a hit it would take to knock the rider off).  Also, any hit on the horse or rider would cancel the horse's charge, giving us infantry some hope.

That would be more realistic yes, but looking from the games perspective, i dont just dont see that as a good idea. With the giant forcefield that the riders have(which gurni talked about earlier in this thread) + the power of the lance.

Just my opinion, but i dont see it working very well with the game.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Teeth on July 01, 2012, 06:42:09 pm

Quote from: ROHYPNOL on July 01, 2012, 05:35:54 pm

ok so you are saying horses arent fast... its the rider? i can show you some of people that arent pros and still fast as shit.. what is your point

im sorry you dont just jump on a horse without being trained bro lol

if so you make a video of you doing it

make it so that you cannot do these hybrid melee cav builds.. that is pretty dumb.. make it so its dedicated more

I THINK AN AWESOME FEATURE WOULD BE... MAKE IT SO THAT THE HEAVIER ARMOR YOU WEAR THE SLOWER THE HORSE GETS AND MAKES IT LESS MANEUVER.. forcing people to have to use more skill and flanking rather than saying oh shit i have 8if 8ps on horseback with full plate... make that user be slow as shit... you see what happened when you nerfed riding chaz.. you forced people to get minimal riding and tank it up and ACTUALLY being harder to kill lol.. i rem back in the day gettin 1 shot off cav all the time by arrows now i laugh with my troll 8if 8ps highest 8.3kdr in game LOL

Jeez, you're one obnoxious fucker.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Turkhammer on July 01, 2012, 06:45:20 pm

Quote from: ROHYPNOL on July 01, 2012, 05:23:27 pm

lemmy winks said horses arent as maneuverable as this game.... are you kidding me lol.. they are way more maneuverable and faster than this game man lol

here is your proof.. take a good look and slap yourself

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awR1zuyfXwo&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awR1zuyfXwo&feature=related)

Real Horse Bump LOLOLOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYi5A__lWzg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYi5A__lWzg)

Failed example with the quarter horse video at the rodeo.  Quarter horses are completely different from a heavy war horse.  It's like comparing a Porsche with a truck. 

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Canary on July 01, 2012, 06:48:06 pm

A simple change in controls would be to add a key press for increased speed and one for decreased speed. This would be on top of W and S functioning how they currently do, with the new buttons changing "tiers" of movement speed (ironically making it even more like changing gears on, for example, a motorcycle). If you change to higher or the highest speed tier from a dead stop, your horse accelerates much slower, as you try to spur it into a full gallop without first making it walk, trot, then canter. If you use each one in a smooth progression (while using W to make it move faster along each tier) your acceleration increases much faster overall. This would allow you to control just how fast you're going at all times by limiting your top speed should you want, and would require more attention given to how you accelerate on your horse.

There could be other additions to this, like a temporary charge on a cooldown similar to couching a lance, where you move even faster than normal top speed momentarily and maybe increase your charge damage, all at the cost of a more limited turning radius while it's active.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Overdriven on July 01, 2012, 06:56:39 pm

Quote from: Turkhammer on July 01, 2012, 06:45:20 pm

Failed example with the quarter horse video at the rodeo.  Quarter horses are completely different from a heavy war horse.  It's like comparing a Porsche with a truck.

We aren't talking about only war horses. There are light horses in game as well.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Bryggan on July 01, 2012, 06:57:32 pm

Quote from: _GTX_ on July 01, 2012, 06:39:48 pm

That would be more realistic yes, but looking from the games perspective, i dont just dont see that as a good idea. With the giant forcefield that the riders have(which gurni talked about earlier in this thread) + the power of the lance.

Just my opinion, but i dont see it working very well with the game.

Oh yeah, forgot about the giant forcefield.  Shame about that.

I would like to see more hybrids riding, ie narrowing the angle of the lance on horseback so cav would have to use shorter weapons fighting each other which would stop them from getting random kills on infantry during their horse battles.  Plus it looks cooler.  This shouldn't be a nerf; it would just mean they'd share their proficiency points... but this is the wrong thread for that, we're talking horses here, not riders.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Swaggart on July 01, 2012, 07:00:46 pm

I think the horse controls are fine. The only thing that would be cool, but probably really hard to implement, is giving horses more unpredictability. For example, your horse should veer off to the side if you're about to ram it into a wall. It's an animal with it's own mind, not some mindless drone.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: LordBerenger on July 01, 2012, 07:01:31 pm

Even though this is slightly off-topic as someone suggested before that limiting Cav/Archers per serv ( = Ridiculous and stupid don't do it).


Anyhow, besides what Frell said not much should be changed imo.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: NuberT on July 01, 2012, 07:04:40 pm

Allow couching only for Jousting and Great Lance, good cav players don't need that anyway.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Prinz_Karl on July 01, 2012, 07:50:36 pm

I know it's kind of off topic but I really like the idea of adding a special charge for cavalry class. Of course it will have a cooldown.

In this modus you will have the speed of horse increased by let's say +10 and your weapon will cause higher damage but more importantly the charge power of the horse will be higher.

The disadvantage will be that you horse is less maneuverable and it will be very difficult to stop it. It should be already hard to avoid a pike from 20 meters imo.

The aim is to make the cavalry charges even more realistic and more epic and maybe force the players to make more organized formations on both sides.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Osiris on July 01, 2012, 07:56:33 pm

perhaps adding a shield bonus type dealio :P you get shield bonus from a shield wall you should get a large charge bonus when forming lines and doing actual cavalry charges. Also being knocked off your horse like in NW would be cool :) As for the control of the horse well horse control is an art that would be hard to replicate. Perhaps splitting horse riding skill into heavy or light to show specialisation and perhaps getting on a horse that you dont spawn with should lower your manouvarability 10-15% I mean its not your horse it wont like you :D

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: akapraf on July 01, 2012, 08:08:51 pm

Quote from: Gurnisson on July 01, 2012, 03:57:18 pm

Remove the insane blocking area you get from horseback.

Quote from: Turboflex on July 01, 2012, 04:50:59 pm

make riders take fall damage if horse is killed.

Quote from: Butan on July 01, 2012, 06:14:39 pm

The W-A-S-D  in M&B is perfect, there should be no tweak on that.

Quote from: Hobb on July 01, 2012, 04:05:33 pm

2) add crash damage for running into shit including other horses

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: LordBerenger on July 01, 2012, 09:12:21 pm

Riders take fall dmg is so stupid. They're dead anyhow when their horse dies because every melee whore will rush around you and gangbang you.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Adamar on July 01, 2012, 09:24:08 pm

Quote from: CountBerenger on July 01, 2012, 09:12:21 pm

Riders take fall dmg is so stupid. They're dead anyhow when their horse dies because every melee whore will rush around you and gangbang you.

The horse takes a lot of the damage now.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Lord_Panos on July 01, 2012, 09:32:36 pm

The only thing I have to say is that in the end the only classes that are going to be playable will be ranged (xbow+bow) throwing is shit and a lot of 2h spam kuyak heroes.

you nerfed  polearms A LOT and now you will tear down lancers aswell, while you let untouched the most abuzive class,2h, and please little 2h bitches don`t  - my posts just because I`m telling the truth,most of you whined because turning speed got nerfed because you couldn`t abuze the 180 lolstab and top the scoreboards,we all know that if NEVER 2h class gets the nerfs that it deserves most of you will GTX or respec into something else.

Fucking QQers.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Rebelyell on July 01, 2012, 09:36:37 pm

Quote from: Lord_beer on July 01, 2012, 09:32:36 pm

The only thing I have to say is that in the end the only classes that are going to be playable will be ranged (xbow+bow) throwing is shit and a lot of 2h spam kuyak heroes.

you nerfed A LOT polearms and now you will tear down lancers aswell, while you let untouched the most abuzive class,2h, and please little 2h bitches don`t  - my posts just because I`m telling the truth,most of you whined because turning speed got nerfed because you couldn`t abuze the 180 lolstab and top the scoreboards,we all know that if NEVER 2h class gets the nerfs that it deserves most of you will GTX or respec into something else.

Fucking QQers.

bla bla bla,

but yes, greate swords need, rework
but not here wrong Subject beer panbaba

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Teeth on July 01, 2012, 09:38:11 pm

Quote from: Lord_beer on July 01, 2012, 09:32:36 pm

The only thing I have to say is that in the end the only classes that are going to be playable will be ranged (xbow+bow) throwing is shit and a lot of 2h spam kuyak heroes.

you nerfed A LOT polearms and now you will tear down lancers aswell, while you let untouched the most abuzive class,2h, and please little 2h bitches don`t  - my posts just because I`m telling the truth,most of you whined because turning speed got nerfed because you couldn`t abuze the 180 lolstab and top the scoreboards,we all know that if NEVER 2h class gets the nerfs that it deserves most of you will GTX or respec into something else.

Fucking QQers.

Stop QQ-ing Panos.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Lord_Panos on July 01, 2012, 09:39:53 pm

Quote from: SgtTeeh on July 01, 2012, 09:38:11 pm

Stop QQ-ing Panos.

coming from a dude who  respeced to 1h as soon as the turn speed nerf came,is a bit dumb  :wink:

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Teeth on July 01, 2012, 09:42:02 pm

Quote from: Lord_Panos on July 01, 2012, 09:39:53 pm

coming from a dude who  respeced to 1h as soon as the turn speed nerf came,is a bit dumb  :wink:

I retired from 2h as soon as I hit 31. By the time the turn speed nerf arrived I was already well on my way towards 31 as a 1h.  :wink:

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: LordBerenger on July 01, 2012, 09:44:38 pm

Quote from: Lord_Panos on July 01, 2012, 09:32:36 pm

The only thing I have to say is that in the end the only classes that are going to be playable will be ranged (xbow+bow) throwing is shit and a lot of 2h spam kuyak heroes.

you nerfed A LOT polearms and now you will tear down lancers aswell, while you let untouched the most abuzive class,2h, and please little 2h bitches don`t  - my posts just because I`m telling the truth,most of you whined because turning speed got nerfed because you couldn`t abuze the 180 lolstab and top the scoreboards,we all know that if NEVER 2h class gets the nerfs that it deserves most of you will GTX or respec into something else.

Fucking QQers.

QFT

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Leshma on July 01, 2012, 09:46:34 pm

This game has one of the better horse riding model. Riding isn't the problem, it should be easy, just like walking is. You should bring back old lance angle because that's what made the difference between bad, good and great cavalry players. For 1h cav and 2h cav there's already bump slash to differentiate between good and bad players. Horse archery is the most challenging cavalry class, horse xbow is stupid, unrealistic and should be removed as an option from cRPG and any other game that tries to simulate medieval battles.

If you're asking about cRPG, to improve difficulty you should do what I've already suggested:
- bring back old lance angle
- lower damage horse bumps deal (or buff bump damage but you have to implement fall damage in that case)
- fixed position for couched lance (no moving left and right, over the horse head and such bullshit)

If you're searching for great idea for your new game, I'm afraid I can't help you because more advanced riding model requires new controller. I mean, you can try something like in Two Worlds II but that pissed off most people.

Better physics always helps, not just horse movement but also human movement model which is lulz in Warband.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Torben on July 01, 2012, 09:48:33 pm

the horse movement in M&B 2 looks really nice...

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Teeth on July 01, 2012, 09:49:31 pm

Quote from: Leshma on July 01, 2012, 09:46:34 pm

Riding isn't the problem, it should be easy, just like walking is.

You lost me here. Why should riding be easy like walking? Riding is not easy.

Quote from: Torben on July 01, 2012, 09:48:33 pm

the horse movement in M&B 2 looks really nice...

Wait what? Gimme link!

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Artyem on July 01, 2012, 09:51:28 pm

Add a chance to get knocked off your horse.  'The Deluge' had this feature and it always seemed to make Cavalry seem less like butt pirates and more like a tactical advantage if your team used them correctly.

Also, don't make the horse ride faster based on your riding skill, that's like your automatic car accelerating and moving faster because you know how to drive a stick.

And finally, I think there's generally more than just "WALK" "LIGHT RUN" and "FULL GALLOP" in terms of horse gaits, and they all have separate uses.  Make turning extremely difficult at full gallop so the horse can't corner a 90 degree turn faster than a human can move out of the way if he's aware.  Make the only speed value that allows the horse to be capable of turning efficiently a light run or a jog paced gait so that they actually have to slow down to corner that wall without running face first into it.

Also, if at all possible make horse bumping on a common horse (Steppe, Desert, Rouncey, etc) extremely difficult, as a horse is a living creature and not a motorcycle with a plow in the front designated to kill all humans, they have a tendency to turn away from people unless they've been trained for nothing but charging into groups of enemies.

I do however support the suggestion that the Riding skill should be used to decrease a delay in the response of movement keys for horses, and maybe increase the ability to turn with each point put into riding.  Just please don't make the horse run faster because the rider has 8 riding.

Quote from: Gurnisson on July 01, 2012, 03:57:18 pm

Remove the insane blocking area you get from horseback. Arrows to horse's face being sucked up by the shield of the rider, and pikes to the horse's body sucked up by the rider's shield/down block is getting very old. :|

I have no issues with cav except for that one right there, which is just completely broken.

Also this ^

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Mlekce on July 01, 2012, 09:51:57 pm

Quote from: Lord_Panos on July 01, 2012, 09:39:53 pm

coming from a dude who  respeced to 1h as soon as the turn speed nerf came,is a bit dumb  :wink:

Panos i remember you talking shit abbout GK,lobbying for cav nerf,calling them names and now when you are cav,noob lancer you defend it... :rolleyes:
You said cav is OP.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: polkafranzi on July 01, 2012, 09:53:19 pm

Add in this:

Random chance that an archers bow string breaks during the round, say...5% Then he/she has to switch to melee weapon. 

Oops, wrong thread.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Adamar on July 01, 2012, 09:56:19 pm

Quote from: Leshma on July 01, 2012, 09:46:34 pm

- fixed position for couched lance (no moving left and right, over the horse head and such bullshit)

Moving a pole with your armpit for support is a lot easier than realying only on you wrist strenght.

Leshma what's up with all the bad suggestions lately?

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Lord_Panos on July 01, 2012, 09:56:26 pm

Quote from: Mlekce on July 01, 2012, 09:51:57 pm

beer i remember you talking shit abbout GK,lobbying for cav nerf,calling them names and now when you are cav,noob lancer you defend it... :rolleyes:
You said cav is OP.

I still talk shit about gk you moron,but not because they kill me,most of them are pretty good damn lancers (Kerrigan,Chagan,Garrus) but the bad thing with them is that they spawnarape, and that cause a lot of infamy to lancers,mediocre 2handers can easily oppose lancers with the lolstab.

The only things that are op are bump/lance/slash and the goddamn arabian.

Now keep qqing ex-2h hero.  :lol:

A lot of you believe that cav class is easy,just because you saw some ppl playing it good,it does not mean that it`s easy mode.Give to a new player a 2h sword with an agi build and I bet all my looms that he will manage 3 kills at least in 1 map,but,give to a new player a courser to ride and I bet that one of these things will happen.

A)his horse gets killed by the range spam and then he dies
B)he does a frontal attack to a 2h/pike/L.Spear

I see a lot of you whine, that cavalry backstabs and shit,well it`s not my fault that you are fucking def and that your awarness level is equal to a downnie.

You are whining for the wrong class to be nerfed IMO.

Edit for grammar correction.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Artyem on July 01, 2012, 10:08:29 pm

The point of this thread isn't to bitch about how over powered or under powered riding is, and it certainly isn't about how overpowered or underpowered two handers are.  So please do us all a favor and fuck off so the actual discussion can continue. Thanks.

Quote from: chadz on July 01, 2012, 02:59:28 pm

So we were discussing horses yesterday, and were trying to come up with ideas how to change horses in general. Note - this is in no way a balance thread, so if you think horses are OP or UP, and feel you have to communicate this, please, gtfo.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Casimir on July 01, 2012, 10:10:09 pm

buff 2h cav.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Cicero on July 01, 2012, 10:12:43 pm

Couch needs to be nerfed , it is so easy to kill someone atm , just one click and in real life couch is made for only one time use.Just watch some movies or watch in real life ; u can't hold lance after you couch someone , with that speed and hit , its not possible to hold your lance still.Even normal hit its hard.

Also about horse speed , What about putting some penalty if you ride with armour , i mean with tincan and if you gonna try to ride a destrier those horses are a living thing its need to be have some penalty.

What about making an effect about accelaration maybe
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

this thing at rider's shoulder called "whip"  can be used for extra speed.

For free horse whistle , if you think about horses are the most loyal animal , those horses which their owner died in battle must be hard to use , i mean they should resist ?

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Slamz on July 01, 2012, 10:15:31 pm

The real problem with cavalry in this game isn't the horses themselves, but the unnatural weaknesses granted to their targets.

Horses are too quiet in the base mod.  Really it would be nice if every sound in the game was reduced by 50% except for horses.  Coursers are particularly bad about this because their speed is so high that by the time you hear them, you're dead, lanced in the back by an opponent you didn't have time to see or hear.  Coursers are greatly preferred over the armored horses because being so fast that nobody hears you coming is way more effective than having a horse with armor.  And most people probably don't have surround sound so they can't really hear where the horses are coming from.

I actually think that what we need is "horse radar" -- something to make up for the inherent audio weakness of playing a game versus being there in real life.

Horses do take a reasonable amount of skill already in the sense that lining up a moving target and hitting him isn't as easy as it looks.

The problem is that anyone on foot is way too easily caught by surprise because Warband has "stealth horses".

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: engurrand on July 01, 2012, 10:17:12 pm

chadz,

To do horses from scratch lets consider something in terms of making it "nuanced" and difficult.

Horse are separate entities IRL, they are their own creatures.

Now with that in mind consider what a game will try to do...

Extend some of those "aspects" of a IRL into the game world so that they can be used as a play style..
SO you then have the graphics, animations, mechanics and all that, and it ties into the game play.

One of the prime functions of the horse is that it is large, faster than a man, and has enough mass and momentum to impact a body with enough force to cause damage / discordance. These are the core mechanics we see in c-rpg.

Now to consider making horses from scratch and make it more difficult we might want to require, as it seems to be you are suggesting, that the player would need to put more attention into riding the horse in order to be at the top tier of effectiveness. The W S A D acceleration scheme is very simple, where the only real nuance surrounds rotation speed and acceleration.

So, is the goal to try to make it more like "riding a horse IRL", since you were asking for a real riders input... or is it simply to make it more difficult by requiring a the player to manage a larger set of mechanics? Maybe it's a mix... The hardest part here is how to do change mechanics without adding too many features... If we are trying to make it more realistic then we cannot discount the fact that IRL a horse has it's own mind and thus controlling it is a lot different than a machine. Being that computers are machines i think going the route to make horses in a game more difficult via realism is not wise, do you want to make a riding simulator or something else? Or do you want a full riding simulator inside of the rest of your game...

Regardless here is some input to mechanics...

1. Do not have a continuous acceleration range, rather have "levels" of acceleration... Walk, trot, cantor, gallop, charge, ect...
   a. Change rotation (turning speed) and deceleration so that each acceleration level has a unique set of those properties
   b. Make "transitions" between the acceleration levels continuous... so when going from walk to a trot, for example, it doesn't just instantly jump from speed A to speed B but the horse "revs" it self up and take a time period to reach the new speed level.

2. Add more "rearing" type animations where the player cannot control / have limited control of the horse.
    example: Right now in war band we have the rearing animation for the horse... for a second or two you cannot control the horse.... Well make a set of similar                      types of animations, say one where a horse freaks out or something... Rears up and stomps around... example b, example c... you get the point...

3. make horses stronger yet more "reactive" to receiving damage.
   Horse fight... each other, and other animals. Not all horses are aggressive, but some times there are a few who stand out with violent tendencies, and they are not pussies. For example, if you stab a horse in the gut 4 feet deep with a giant pike the horse will be pissed, but it's not going to just fall over and die.. it will probably break the lance and freak the fuck out and then fall over.
Horses need to be more powerful but less maneuverable. 

with that being said... a Horse is not a machine, thus it is hard to make a simulator because the total range of behaviors is not predictable. With an aircraft there is a much stronger domain of predictability, even if large, so all you need to do is attempt to simulate that. The real difficulty in riding a horse is within each horses unique psychology. Trying to increase difficulty based around the real difficulty is going to be very difficult... trying to make "driving a horse" more complex like a flight simulator will just make things annoying.

I personally would keep the simple acceleration and movement scheme and add as little extra shit that the player has to do as possible. Rather make their minds work harder, not their fingers.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: matt2507 on July 01, 2012, 10:33:45 pm

I have not read every post but most of those I've seen absolutely want to change the system of handling the horse.
Outside, I noticed that this is not necessarily the horse that poses problem.

This is firstly their number.

The solution would be to prevent a player back after being dropped, while including the possibility of falling.


The second problem I noticed is the use of the spear that is abusive.

Solution: why not consider the spear as a destructible item ?
Just like the shields. If you have more points in polearm or in "spear point", it will be more resistant.


third problem: Horses with armor.

We can apply the second solution here too.
Assuming that the horse armor is a shield, you would need to shield point use.

One can even go further by transforming the armor as a single object.
The player should then buy the horse and he would be able to purchase armor for this one.
Which would also lower the costs of the repair of the horses but to add to the armor.


Fourth problem and solution: rebalance the statistics of the horses.

The charger is more expensive than the arabian.
The arabian rotates so fast that it exceeds the speed of animation ...
The palfray costs more than the steppe horse.

There are a lot of incoherent thing I think.

And of course, that famous invisible shield of death...
Which is also accompanied by a hitbox the size of a Panzer IV...


The addition of stamina or the time between keystrokes and the animation is not a good thing. The system itself is good and the aim would be to make them less op. The goal is not to make them unplayable, even when it is necessary that it's still a nice class to play.

Currently, this class is the most fun I've had the opportunity to try.
This kind of nerf i would just stop playing this mod has I think.


Sorry for my english.


And

Quote from: Casimir on July 01, 2012, 10:10:09 pm

buff 2h cav.

Yeah +1

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Torben on July 01, 2012, 10:36:38 pm

Quote from: SgtTeeh on July 01, 2012, 09:49:31 pm

Wait what? Gimme link!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZUfzAFL5Ek

see the sidestepping?

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Leshma on July 01, 2012, 10:36:42 pm

Quote from: SgtTeeh on July 01, 2012, 09:49:31 pm

You lost me here. Why should riding be easy like walking? Riding is not easy.

For gameplay purposes, Teeth. I wasn't talking about RL.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Teeth on July 01, 2012, 10:48:19 pm

Quote from: Leshma on July 01, 2012, 10:36:42 pm

For gameplay purposes, Teeth. I wasn't talking about RL.

Okay, but isn't the exact point of this entire thread that riding a horse is too easy and that it should be made more difficult and interesting?

Quote from: Torben on July 01, 2012, 10:36:38 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZUfzAFL5Ek

see the sidestepping?

Oh, I always thought those were animations for the campaign map. Guess its not, I wonder how they are going to implement sidestepping control wise.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Leshma on July 01, 2012, 10:50:35 pm

I'm very sad to see that chadz is again planning nerf based on majority QQing and not on actual facts.

Cavalry player isn't OP by itself but in high numbers they can be OP. However that's developers fault because autobalance doesn't take classes into account, which results in silly round outcomes.

I'm not a piker but I really have no problem handling any cavalry player in this game unless I'm busy and unaware of their presence. You don't need pike to be good against cavalry, you just need balanced build and knowledge of game mechanics.

Problem is that we're often playing 60 players vs 60 players where first team can be consisted of very good players and the other of newbies who's awareness level is very low.

Fix autobalance and you'll fix many issues this mod has. Also allow hybrids again because making pure builds the dumbest choice you ever did. There were no pure builds in medieval age. Every mercenary had some kind of sidearm at least and he was good with it just like he was with pike or zweihander. Only in cRPG there are dedicated greatsword users who suck with one handed weapons and pikes. That never existed.

Also stop supporting imaginary builds, classes of soldiers that never existed in history.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: AvengerC47 on July 01, 2012, 10:53:08 pm

1. Make tapping W increasing speed (and depending on acceleration and to his max speed), not holding it
So it will be like car 'gears' + horse loosing speed when you r not tapping
sth like max 1tap/2sec(or slower) needed at full speed

2. Damage horse when stopped by a wall etc. (or even when bumping)

3. Fix shield forcefield (on horse and on foot)

4. Much less manevurability at full speed

5. horses taking dmg from the rider if hits with sword or make horses block the attack if hitted

6. fix the speed when rides on very small change in ground
its decreasing too much
even little rock that normal horse wouldn't even noticed slows the horse in game because of change from flat ground to little hill

7. ctrl+j kicks ppl in front (like normal kick but stronger)
and k key to kick behind

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Thomek on July 01, 2012, 10:54:51 pm

ahem.. wanted to change cav for 1 1/2 years and now this! *rrr.. told ya so.. rrr..

Many good suggestions in this thread btw :)

May I add something unmentioned?

What if the horses themselves would do damage when they fall/get killed?

Imagine a charge with tightly packed cav. Half of them get's killed by long polearms, but when the horses fall at high speed their corpses slide along the ground, creating mayhem among the infantry. Basically, both horse and rider would "Crash" when they die.

But all of these small suggestions are really besides the point. chadz, you need a clear vision of how they will play and work!!!! Then create horsemanship from this vision.

Example:

Imagine this situation:

Cavalry are only really powerful when played together as a team.
Every battle contains at least 1 cavalry charge. Infantry don't stick together because of Ninja-Cav, (like it is now) but because small groups becomes extremely vulnerable to massed cavalry charges.

The cavalry charge should be more of a 1-time nuke to the enemy team. (Maybe more than 1 time if executed well) Relying more on timing and surprise than anything else.

What does it take to get there? Where it actually benefit the players and the team to play cav in a more realistic way? What does it take to make cavalry teamplay more with each other?

There are many factors here.. But I think their speed would need to be generally reduced. At least their acceleration. Perhaps charge damage should be increased, as well as horse HP reduced. Perhaps one should give area based teamplay bonuses. Falling horses should be as dangerous as living horses.. (if one stands in the path.)

IDK, but in any way, one should give this stuff a long hard think.

Somehow: skill requirement, teamplay, risk/reward, fun for the cav, fun for everyone else,  and balance has to hold hands.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Leshma on July 01, 2012, 10:54:59 pm

Quote from: SgtTeeh on July 01, 2012, 10:48:19 pm

Okay, but isn't the exact point of this entire thread that riding a horse is too easy and that it should be made more difficult and interesting?

Bad approach. Riding isn't the point of lancer cavalry, proficiency with lance is. However chadz thinks that horse is more important tool than lance and therefore made all those changes from native cavalry which is still fun, unlike cRPG cavalry which is dull.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Teeth on July 01, 2012, 11:00:40 pm

Quote from: Leshma on July 01, 2012, 10:50:35 pm

(click to show/hide)

I'm very sad to see that chadz is again planning nerf based on majority QQing and not on actual facts.

Cavalry player isn't OP by itself but in high numbers they can be OP. However that's developers fault because autobalance doesn't take classes into account, which results in silly round outcomes.

I'm not a piker but I really have no problem handling any cavalry player in this game unless I'm busy and unaware of their presence. You don't need pike to be good against cavalry, you just need balanced build and knowledge of game mechanics.

Problem is that we're often playing 60 players vs 60 players where first team can be consisted of very good players and the other of newbies who's awareness level is very low.

Fix autobalance and you'll fix many issues this mod has. Also allow hybrids again because making pure builds the best choice is the dumbest choice you ever did. There were no pure builds in medieval age. Every mercenary had some kind of sidearm at least and he was good with it just like he was with pike or zweihander. Only in cRPG there are dedicated greatsword users who suck with one handed weapons and pikes. That never existed.

Also stop supporting imaginary builds, classes of soldiers that never existed in history.

You are missing the point of this thread. chadz didn't mention a nerf at all, this is about a complete overhaul of the cav system. It's not about tweaking or balancing the current system, it's about forgetting the current system and brainstorming about a new one.

Quote from: Leshma on July 01, 2012, 10:54:59 pm

Bad approach. Riding isn't the point of lancer cavalry, proficiency with lance is. However chadz thinks that horse is more important tool than lance and therefore made all those changes from native cavalry which is still fun, unlike cRPG cavalry which is dull.

Native cavalry is not that fun, and you really can't compare those anymore. The changes to the slot system and ranged power compared to Native would have made cavalry horribly OP if left untouched.

Why is riding not the point of lancer cavalry? It's a pretty big part of what a lancer is. The speed of the horse kills, the rider is just holding a pointy stick which concentrates the forward momentum of the horse.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Osiris on July 01, 2012, 11:01:33 pm

Quote from: SgtTeeh on Today at 19:48:19

Okay, but isn't the exact point of this entire thread that riding a horse is too easy and that it should be made more difficult and interesting?



well to be fair the warriors of the time periods would be pretty damn good horse riders :P Cav should be the most powerfull class when used in a team. a lone cav shouldnt be able to rape so many people tho



PS how loud do you think a horse is? do you think you would hear one horse in the midst of battle? I propose that the more horses in an area the louder the hoof sound becomes :D

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Darkoveride on July 01, 2012, 11:04:46 pm

riders bumping into each other should deal damage to them and/ or there horses. Make riders who don't pay attention to team mates suffer.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Thomek on July 01, 2012, 11:06:14 pm

Realism is nothing but an inspiration.

In the end someone has to envision how cav should work, and work it through.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Lord_Panos on July 01, 2012, 11:07:50 pm

Quote from: Thomek on July 01, 2012, 11:06:14 pm

Realism is nothing but an inspiration.

In the end someone has to envision how cav should work, and work it through.

if realism is the matter of discussion then I demand instant death when a horse on full speed bumps someone.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Leshma on July 01, 2012, 11:08:51 pm

Quote from: AvengerC47 on July 01, 2012, 10:53:08 pm

1. Make tapping W increasing speed (and depending on acceleration and to his max speed), not holding it
So it will be like car 'gears' + horse loosing speed when you r not tapping
sth like max 1tap/2sec(or slower) needed at full speed

Like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIS-OBGmhbM)?

I mean, I kinda liked that but most people stopped riding horses in that game because it's frustrating for them.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Vibe on July 01, 2012, 11:09:58 pm

Quote from: Leshma on July 01, 2012, 11:08:51 pm

Like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIS-OBGmhbM)?

I mean, I kinda liked that but most people stopped riding horses in that game because it's frustrating for them.

TW2 horse riding is abysmal

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: polkafranzi on July 01, 2012, 11:10:29 pm

Quote from: Leshma on July 01, 2012, 11:08:51 pm

most people stopped riding horses in that game because it's frustrating for them.

Exactly what ever foot archer/xbower/inf want from this mod judging by all the latest QQ threads. (cept those can can deal with cav, like yourself).

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Leshma on July 01, 2012, 11:12:37 pm

Quote from: Thomek on July 01, 2012, 11:06:14 pm

Realism is nothing but an inspiration.

Realism is removal of hollywood ninjas, who wear black and white kimonos, throw shurikens and spam katana. I bet you would like to be able to disappear/teleport when you use smoke bombs, thank god this engine doesn't support that.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Cicero on July 01, 2012, 11:21:13 pm

just killed by cav with practice lance with 1 hit.
ofcourse couch

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Gravoth_iii on July 01, 2012, 11:27:58 pm

Quote from: Leshma on July 01, 2012, 10:50:35 pm

(click to show/hide)

I'm very sad to see that chadz is again planning nerf based on majority QQing and not on actual facts.

Cavalry player isn't OP by itself but in high numbers they can be OP. However that's developers fault because autobalance doesn't take classes into account, which results in silly round outcomes.

I'm not a piker but I really have no problem handling any cavalry player in this game unless I'm busy and unaware of their presence. You don't need pike to be good against cavalry, you just need balanced build and knowledge of game mechanics.

Problem is that we're often playing 60 players vs 60 players where first team can be consisted of very good players and the other of newbies who's awareness level is very low.

Fix autobalance and you'll fix many issues this mod has. Also allow hybrids again because making pure builds the dumbest choice you ever did. There were no pure builds in medieval age. Every mercenary had some kind of sidearm at least and he was good with it just like he was with pike or zweihander. Only in cRPG there are dedicated greatsword users who suck with one handed weapons and pikes. That never existed.

Also stop supporting imaginary builds, classes of soldiers that never existed in history.

You may not have much of a problem with cav because (atleast the times i've spectated you) you go alone, away from the main battle and being aware of cav is easier that way. But when fighting in the main battle it is incredibly hard to watch for cav and fight multiple enemies at the same time, and when you dont watch your back cav will either bump you down or just one-hit you :/

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: polkafranzi on July 01, 2012, 11:29:32 pm

Quote from: Gravoth_iii on July 01, 2012, 11:27:58 pm

You may not have much of a problem with cav because (atleast the times i've spectated you) you go alone, away from the main battle and being aware of cav is easier that way. But when fighting in the main battle it is incredibly hard to watch for cav and fight multiple enemies at the same time, and when you dont watch your back cav will either bump you down or just one-hit you :/

and your point is?

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Gravoth_iii on July 01, 2012, 11:32:34 pm

Quote from: polkafranzi on July 01, 2012, 11:29:32 pm

and your point is?

That cav actually is op, and its not just us players fault for not being aware.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Overdriven on July 01, 2012, 11:32:54 pm

Quote from: SgtTeeh on July 01, 2012, 09:49:31 pm

You lost me here. Why should riding be easy like walking? Riding is not easy.

Change that to riding should be easy like driving. Once you learn it's a piece of piss.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Osiris on July 01, 2012, 11:33:06 pm

I have an idea. ban all weapons but 2h and polearms (ofc no pointy sticks just polearms that are like 2h). that should make you people happy right?

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: justme on July 01, 2012, 11:35:55 pm

well i have difficulty at choosing what to aim.. if aiming low to legs, they just jump (even the heavy armored ones), but aiming high, they downblock or shields covering big area of horse

and cav with shield should loose some maneuver

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Overdriven on July 01, 2012, 11:41:03 pm

Tbh I think only small things should be introduced. Like the deluge horse unseating thing. That's an awesome mechanic and really surprised me when I first encountered it.

Leave the actual horse controls well alone. The people we are 'RPing' are experienced riders. With high level characters with higher level riding WASD just represents the ease with which a trained horsemen would control their horse. Adding more actual controls for a horse would simply be a pain in the arse.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: chadz on July 01, 2012, 11:45:32 pm

The people we are 'RPing' are experienced fighters. With high level characters with higher WPF autoblock just represents the ease with which a trained warrior would control their swords. Adding 4 attack and block directions for a swing would simply be a pain in the arse.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Casimir on July 01, 2012, 11:47:55 pm

Quote from: Thomek on July 01, 2012, 10:54:51 pm

ahem.. wanted to change cav for 1 1/2 years and now this! *rrr.. told ya so.. rrr..

Of course over a lot of that time the balance paradigm was completely different and cavalry was a less significant problem.  In the cycle of balance if you continually moan about anything long enough it will probably come round to getting nerfed eventually. This doesn't mean you were right when you moaned and bitched for years. 

I don't understand why cavalry shouldn't be allowed to perform in anyway it likes, why should they be forced to operate in large groups any more than infantry or ranged should?  If a melee fighter wants to run around and flank enemies, take their targets at unaware and get kills by surprise attack rather than coordinated group work why shouldn't cavalry? 

If cavalry chooses to work in a coordinated group then they should be rewarded for it the same as infantry is, this doesn't mean they should be forced into it however.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: LordBerenger on July 01, 2012, 11:49:48 pm

Stop bitching about cav you melee scrubs! You're just mad because you don't got the SWAG cav got.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Lannistark on July 01, 2012, 11:51:49 pm

Add penalties to maneuver and reduce horse speed in inverse proportion to weight.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Overdriven on July 01, 2012, 11:53:28 pm

Quote from: chadz on July 01, 2012, 11:45:32 pm

The people we are 'RPing' are experienced fighters. With high level characters with higher WPF autoblock just represents the ease with which a trained warrior would control their swords. Adding 4 attack and block directions for a swing would simply be a pain in the arse.

4 attack/block directions, 4 movement directions. Seems fair as its the same for each.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Leshma on July 01, 2012, 11:54:01 pm

Quote from: Gravoth_iii on July 01, 2012, 11:27:58 pm

You may not have much of a problem with cav because (atleast the times i've spectated you) you go alone, away from the main battle and being aware of cav is easier that way. But when fighting in the main battle it is incredibly hard to watch for cav and fight multiple enemies at the same time, and when you dont watch your back cav will either bump you down or just one-hit you :/

True, but that also means that enemy cav will swarm me when they see me alone in the open. Have you ever killed 5 GKs in 10 seconds on your own? At one point I was able to kill even more cav in short period without any support and all of them were charging at me at the same time.

Thing is that we, infantry players like to think we're on duel server when we spot an enemy who is willing to fight us (curse of any player in cRPG is that you can fight better than yourself but you have to chase those who are worse), we think that world around us stopped moving. Well, it's not like that and it's often useful to back off a little bit to take a look around, sometimes that confuses the opponent allowing us to kill him easier. Unfortunately, I'm one of those retards who ignore everything when they spot the prey...

Also I play this game with sound turned off. I can't hear a damn thing yet I'm not complaining about cav that much. Only thing that I'm complaining is couch because it's possible to deal full damage at low speed and it's possible to move long and pretty heavy lance over horse head (through horse head is correct) when you're going full speed with lance pointing at the ground :rolleyes:

Also lancer cav is super boring for me atm and I really liked it when lance was "free".

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Vibe on July 01, 2012, 11:57:51 pm

Quote from: Overdriven on July 01, 2012, 11:53:28 pm

4 attack/block directions, 4 movement directions. Seems fair as its the same for each.

melee no shield: 4 attacks, 4 blocks, 4 movement directions
cav lancer: 1 attack, 4 blocks (of which only one is mostly used, if ever), 4 movement directions

???

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Lord_Panos on July 01, 2012, 11:59:27 pm

Make apples a throwing weapon.  Then, when a cav charges you, you throw the apple and the horse chases it and stops to eat it.

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WAAAAAAAAAAAAA CAV OP WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA MAMA MAMA

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Torben on July 02, 2012, 12:00:29 am

Quote from: chadz on July 01, 2012, 11:45:32 pm

The people we are 'RPing' are experienced fighters. With high level characters with higher WPF autoblock just represents the ease with which a trained warrior would control their swords. Adding 4 attack and block directions for a swing would simply be a pain in the arse.

so introduce a certain random movement urge into the horses that the rider must counter,  and give horses the sidestep on top to make it even harder to counter but in the same time adding complexity and  versatility by making new combat moves possible through sidestepp.  huray for good english.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Son Of Odin on July 02, 2012, 12:00:37 am

Solution is simple. Just make every whining footman learn to be aware of his surroundings.

What if the answer is not in horse manouver?

Maybe nerf couching. But not damage, the frequency. After every couch the couch recovery time gets longer and longer. A good lancer doesn't need to use the couch many times in a round and can have couple successful ones without trying +10 times. Those who try to couch 20 times in a row and getting 5 kills are the ones we are after here because they have it easy, right? You would still need to improve your skill to have those killing couches but you couldn't "spam" it.

Something should be done to 1h cav as well but I'm not too familiar with the mechanics... They are extremely powerful nowadays and everyone cries about lancers... Duh...

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: polkafranzi on July 02, 2012, 12:01:50 am

Nerf ranged.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: engurrand on July 02, 2012, 12:12:22 am

Quote from: SgtTeeh on July 01, 2012, 11:00:40 pm

You are missing the point of this thread. chadz didn't mention a nerf at all, this is about a complete overhaul of the cav system. It's not about tweaking or balancing the current system, it's about forgetting the current system and brainstorming about a new one.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Slamz on July 02, 2012, 12:13:05 am

Let's say horse speed is a scale from 1 to 10.

A sudden stop from speed 1-2 is fine.
A sudden stop from speed 3-5 does escalating damage to the horse.
A sudden stop from speed 6-10 does increasing damage to the horse and also throws the rider and does escalating damage to him.


Probably the biggest "no skill" thing I see cav players do is charge a player on a wall, lance him but then slam into the wall at 40 mph to no apparent ill effect.  Most skilled cav players try to avoid this anyway because you're suddenly a sitting duck for any archers but it should really be damaging to do it at all.

Horse collisions should be more dramatic too, including friendly fire.  Instead of one horse rearing another and that's the end of it, they should literally plow into each other with the rules described above for speed and damage.  Head on full speed horse collisions should be fatal to both horses and both riders.

(It would make sense for this to be the same for spearing/piking a horse.  Yes you kill the horse and quite possibly the rider but if it was a head-on spear, you still have a huge chunk of meat that's going to bowl you over.)

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Leshma on July 02, 2012, 12:17:08 am

Quote from: chadz on July 01, 2012, 11:45:32 pm

The people we are 'RPing' are experienced fighters. With high level characters with higher WPF autoblock just represents the ease with which a trained warrior would control their swords. Adding 4 attack and block directions for a swing would simply be a pain in the arse.

You really should try Two Worlds II if you haven't already.

Btw. about riding a bike argument, that shitty MMOTPS wannabe game called APB is controlled in a same way as most driving simulators. You can play them with W,A,S,D as well. However APB driving model is probably the worst I've ever had the pleasure to try. And similar game like GTA IV has quite decent driving model. You know why?

Because it has better physics model. No additional controls, just better physics. If you want additional controls you need to make your game for different controller, not for keyboard and mouse. Steering with mouse works well in L4S but in Warband you need free aim for weapons...

W,S,A,D is the best keyboard has to offer. Additional controls only complicate things. Work on physics model instead and things will be a lot more different, both for cav and inf.

Also fixed four attack and block directions aren't enough for me anymore. I want 360 degree combat 8-)

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Teeth on July 02, 2012, 12:20:08 am

Quote from: Leshma on July 02, 2012, 12:17:08 am

(click to show/hide)

You really should try Two Worlds II if you haven't already.

Btw. about riding a bike argument, that shitty MMOTPS wannabe game called APB is controlled in a same way as most driving simulators. You can play them with W,A,S,D as well. However APB driving model is probably the worst I've ever had the pleasure to try. And similar game like GTA IV has quite decent driving model. You know why?

Because it has better physics model. No additional controls, just better physics. If you want additional controls you need to make your game for different controller, not for keyboard and mouse. Steering with mouse works well in L4S but in Warband you need free aim for weapons...

W,S,A,D is the best keyboard has to offer. Additional controls only complicate things. Work on physics model instead and things will be a lot more different, both for cav and inf.

Also fixed four attack and block directions aren't enough for me anymore. I want 360 degree combat 8-)

But horsies can't drift. What would this improved physics model, which is completely unattainable, effectively add to the horseriding mechanics in the game?

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Overdriven on July 02, 2012, 12:21:28 am

Quote from: Vibe on July 01, 2012, 11:57:51 pm

melee no shield: 4 attacks, 4 blocks, 4 movement directions
cav lancer: 1 attack, 4 blocks (of which only one is mostly used, if ever), 4 movement directions

???

Melee with a pike/longspear/ashwood pike. 1h cav exist as well. It's not that clear cut. But each class is relatively the same in attack directions and movement directions.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Thomek on July 02, 2012, 12:26:35 am

Quote from: Casimir on July 01, 2012, 11:47:55 pm

Of course over a lot of that time the balance paradigm was completely different and cavalry was a less significant problem.  In the cycle of balance if you continually moan about anything long enough it will probably come round to getting nerfed eventually. This doesn't mean you were right when you moaned and bitched for years. 

I don't understand why cavalry shouldn't be allowed to perform in anyway it likes, why should they be forced to operate in large groups any more than infantry or ranged should?  If a melee fighter wants to run around and flank enemies, take their targets at unaware and get kills by surprise attack rather than coordinated group work why shouldn't cavalry? 

If cavalry chooses to work in a coordinated group then they should be rewarded for it the same as infantry is, this doesn't mean they should be forced into it however.

I understand your point, and I agree with you..  Don't misunderstand me.
An example of what I suggest is that a rider wanting to maximize his damage would have to ride full speed, and have very little maneuverability at that speed.
Thus a charge would be a real commitment to him, spelling death or victory depending on his timing. There would be no last moment pull out. (like now)

I think such a change would "help encourage" teamwork for cavalry players, as it would not be so easy to get out of sticky situations.. The potential for teamwork is already there for cav players, they just don't use it very much because "It's so hard do coordinate". The real reason is because its not at all necessary to get plenty of kills.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Joker86 on July 02, 2012, 12:29:04 am

Honestly, I don't think that you can or should change a lot concerning cavalry.

Okay, the common suggestions with horses taking damage when hitting solid objects (just let them take damage according to the amount and percentage of the reduction of speed), riders falling off the horse when taking enough damage with a single hit and dead horses still causing bump damage (not sure about this one, actually) could be thought of, no question.

But I think the problem of cavalry is a totally different one.

Currently I play as a piker, and thus I concentrate on protecting my team from cavalry. If you do so and concentrate on the fight of your team vs. enemy cavalry, you will soon become really depressed, because the fight goes only into one direction: enemy cavalry fights your team, and your team does shit against that. They don't even protect themselves.

I say that 90% of all players on the servers behave like there was no cavalry at all. They are the [W]-pressing, mindless rambo-lemming autowalkers which every cavalry player can kill at least five each round. They don't look around, they don't try to establish a protection screen of pikemen and spearmen at the flanks and the back of the formation (or to stay inside of it), and the archers don't give a shit about horses riding around. Go, play a pikeman, try to protect teammates from enemy cavalry, and look how you will fail. Big time. Royally. You have no chance to save those lemmings at all.

This is why I think that cavalry is actually already underpowered (horse durability, upkeep, etc.), but the fail of the infantry (including archers) makes them still OP. There is no nerf you can apply to a horse that would even out things properly, because most of the time the horses are not attacked anyway!

That's why I say that you shouldn't mess around with basic game elements. Better try to improve the awareness of players and their motivation to fight cavalry first. There are only two classes which are more or less defenseless against (melee)cavalry: 1hd+ shield and maulers. Every other class, if aware of the horseman, has pretty good chances to kill the cavalry instead of the other way round. Twohanders and polearm users can stab the horse, ranged players can shoot it. That's why it is incredibly risky to attack a player who is aware. If almost all players would be constantly aware of cavalry, you would suddenly need the skill you want to have as condition for playing cavalry, and you don't need to screw around with basic game mechanics.

P.S.: I have no clue how to improve awareness of those imbecils who get killed by cav. Adding a special reward for killing horses or implementing some kind of commander system with rewards for carrying out orders could be the first step into the right direction.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Lepintoi on July 02, 2012, 12:32:46 am

I want cavalry to be able to carry me on a horse and give me a lift...
Like in the mooovies :)

For example: a horse archer that picks up a 2h or shielder and drops em off right in the melee or closer to the flag...

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Tomas on July 02, 2012, 12:35:51 am

Sorry not managed to read everything but here's what I suggest

1)  Add horse gears with w and s to switch between the gears.  Each gear represents a set speed for all horses

Gears:
- Stopped
- Walk
- Trot
- Canter
- Sprint

EDIT: To actually switch gears you have to hold w for a second.  Tapping it briefly will instead give you a seconds slightly increased speed to catch up with team mates.  Same with s

Whilst sprinting horses move at their actual top speed however horses can only sprint for a set amount of time depending on their stamina (a new horse stat)

When moving between the lower gears their is a set time that the horse takes to accelerate to the new set speed.  When moving into a sprint that time depends on the horses maneuverability instead

Turning remains as it is now but a delay could be nice.

2) All horses should have a chance to rear when charging into a group of people.  This percentage depends on the horse with it being lower for the more heavily armoured horses.  The percentage should be multiplied by the number of infantry in close proximity to the person being hit, whilst the percentage should be divided by the number of horses in close proximity to the horse as it hits the person.

Basically, if you want to charge a group of people then you'll want to team up with other riders and have heavy horses.  The more people you want to charge, the more cav and the heavier the horses you will want.

3) Dead horses still exist for an extra second or two after dying so that Spears take their rightful places as proper anti cav weapons that rear horses whilst 2Handers and ranged players who point blank shoot the horse will get knocked down.  Skill full infantry/ranged who step to the side as the horse passes will still be able to take the horse down

4)  Chance for lance to break if you do more than X damage where X is so high that you have to be couching/lancing an oncoming opponents for it to trigger. 

The result is that cav have to think when to lance/couch enemies instead of just blindly lancing everything in sight

5)  Horses take bump damage according to their armour and the amount of bump damage they dealt.  So if a horse deals 20 bump damage to a player, then the horse takes 20 bump damage itself.  Of course a heavily armoured horse will soak all of this up and not notice. 

Again the result is that Cav have to think when to bump and when not to bump and there is a greater difference between light and heavy Cav.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Thomek on July 02, 2012, 12:39:24 am

Quote from: Joker86 on July 02, 2012, 12:29:04 am

awareness bla bla bla..

It's not gonna happen UNLESS:

* Make cav charges MORE deadly for inf, more risky for cav, and more predictable.

If the team knows that if they don't deal with the cav charge, they loose, something will happen to teamplay.

Now it's more of an uncatchable swarm of mosquitos hacking away at the fringes of the battle. Is an infantry man gonna go around running after cav? Infantry can't attack cav, they are too fast. The only defense is passive and that's sticking together.


*Edit, lots of great suggestions from Tomas above..

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Overdriven on July 02, 2012, 12:42:30 am

Quote from: Thomek on July 02, 2012, 12:39:24 am

It's not gonna happen UNLESS:

* Make cav charges MORE deadly for inf, more risky for cav, and more predictable.

If the team knows that if they don't deal with the cav charge, they loose, something will happen to teamplay.

Now it's more of an uncatchable swarm of mosquitos hacking away at the fringes of the battle. Is an infantry man gonna go around running after cav? Infantry can't attack cav, they are too fast. The only defense is passive and that's sticking together.


*Edit, lots of great suggestions from Tomas above..

But cav charges are impossible to organise without a clan on TS leading the way. Otherwise it just never happenes. Changing the way horses act isn't going to make a damn difference to the organisational abilities of most players. That needs a proper 'squad' system ect more than the battalion system we currently have. Otherwise changing horses to suit big charges will just be wasted.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: gazda on July 02, 2012, 12:48:18 am

Quote from: Chagan_Arslan on July 01, 2012, 04:10:32 pm

1. add a psychology effects to the game (horses and infantry)

examples:
- low riding skill of a rider would cause horse to sometime ignore riders commands in front of a danger (suicide charge into pikes)
- when 3+ horses charge infantry, infantry can be scared and players would have a chance to loose control temporarily over their characters

2. add what prinze_karl said

currently when we hit the wall we have that cheap animation of rearing, which i think is there to show that horse wouldnt ride itself into wall - hence it rears on impact

3. when on very slow speed or when standing still add biting enemy in front and kicking enemy in the back that attacks the horse (horse would do it on its own)

4. use this VIDEO (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsUOW4mljfg) as a reference to horse speed and maneuver not what we have right now ingame

5. remove ctrl+j when riding fast, make it only useable when horse stands still

6. i would say old lance angle would improve skill of lancer vs lancer but it would be too harsh for 1h cav i guess (when it was that lancers where anti cav and 1h anti inf)

7. make rider able to fall of his saddle, when recieving a heavy blow ala Deluge mod

+

Quote from: Frell on July 01, 2012, 03:13:54 pm

I suggested spurring stamina similar to Red Dead Redemption, so riders have to choose when to get their horse to go fast and more timing is involved.  Too much forceful spurring could kill the horse or damage it badly.


Also make hitting objects take damage, so steering and aiming takes more skill ;)

That is how should horse riding be in warband, everything else in this thread is pure shit.

Only things that remain to be questioned are ,

are those things doable? and in what meassure? (fully , partially, slobby, not at all)
how long would it take? do we have time? do we have will to do it?

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Casimir on July 02, 2012, 12:50:09 am

Quote from: Thomek on July 02, 2012, 12:26:35 am

I understand your point, and I agree with you..  Don't misunderstand me.
An example of what I suggest is that a rider wanting to maximize his damage would have to ride full speed, and have very little maneuverability at that speed.
Thus a charge would be a real commitment to him, spelling death or victory depending on his timing. There would be no last moment pull out. (like now)

I think such a change would "help encourage" teamwork for cavalry players, as it would not be so easy to get out of sticky situations.. The potential for teamwork is already there for cav players, they just don't use it very much because "It's so hard do coordinate". The real reason is because its not at all necessary to get plenty of kills.

Your statement just made a good entrance to my general post :)

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: polkafranzi on July 02, 2012, 12:54:19 am

Quote from: chadz on July 01, 2012, 02:59:28 pm

Anyone got some ideas.

Blanket ban NA?

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Mr_Oujamaflip on July 02, 2012, 12:57:12 am

I think the biggest issue with Cavalry at the moment is sound. I'd like to think myself pretty aware of what's going on and of course I occasionally get shanked in the back by a horse but the thing that gets me is that I can't hear them. I spend so much time looking around and making sure I'm not getting attacked that when I'm doing something else like fighting someone or trying to dodge some arrows I feel I should be able to hear a 2 ton medieval tank on approach when really I only hear it after he's gone and stabbed me.

If the game had a decent sound system with proper locational audio I don't think the awareness would be a problem and then the ninja-cavving would fix itself and the cavalry would then need to work together to score some kills just like the infantry do now.

Seriously, leave the ninjaing to the ninjas, not the cav.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Havoco on July 02, 2012, 12:58:00 am

Add an extra button for low angle attack animations (regarding attacking infantry with low swings or stabs. Think of it as "leaning in to the attack"

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: gazda on July 02, 2012, 12:59:30 am

another thing would be forcing cooperation, this wouldnt just apply to cav, but all classes

you see, i once suggested skill bonuses that you get when you are in close formation with teammates, you gave us only shield skill bonus for strat.
I say, generally nerf everything in crpg and make these close proximity bonuses

sry if im straying from the topic too much

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Beauchamp on July 02, 2012, 01:08:22 am

imo cav needs skill even now - there is a huge difference between guys like tommy and others that are happy to even approach 1:1 k:d when on horse.  and the true skill is to move with your horse on the battlefield to your biggest advantage - guessing where to go and when. game mechanics for moving horse itself anywhere to desired place are super easy - and this is imo great and its exactly how it should be.

i don't think that making "moving the horse difficult" is a good way to improve the gameplay. it feels so natural now that i can't imagine any major changes to horse riding (except maybe a few minor ones mentioned like horses react on environment, fall damage, stakes and maybe some others i haven't read) that would really lead to better gaming experience.

the only problem with cav i see is there are to many of them (but its a completely different problem).

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Leshma on July 02, 2012, 01:08:32 am

Quote from: gazda on July 02, 2012, 12:59:30 am

i once suggested skill bonuses that you get when you are in close formation with teammates, you gave us only shield skill bonus for strat.

Link or gtfo? :P

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Trikipum on July 02, 2012, 01:15:06 am

Quote from: Rebelyell on July 01, 2012, 05:26:45 pm

yea but that takes skill( lot of that guy is profesional) and lot of trening time

Oh man you are just too fun. Never been more "skilled" riders than warriors who started training for the thing maybe at 5 yo....

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Kryser on July 02, 2012, 01:15:30 am

I own 2 horses, they are giant retarded dogs. Horses are very intimidating and fun at the same time. They spook easily and are afraid of shadows. But respond well to commands when trained with their rider. Telling your horse commands to "stop" will make him stop. Or make a smacking noise to make him gallop.

You could implement a series of commands to "walk" "gate" and "gallop"
Also horses have no way the maneuverability that the in game horses do, reduce maneuver, because in reality you would be thrown from your horse going those speeds and turning so freaking fast.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Yachdiel on July 02, 2012, 01:16:46 am

Alot the suggestions in this thread sound absurd and completely disregard the mechanics of the game

"Make it so I can pick people up on cav, and that I have to get off my horse and clean his horseshoe"

Horse should slow down more when they bump, they should also move more like infantry and not like motorcycles when slowed down, that mechanic is in Mount and Blade 2, but I don't think its possible here.
I just simply think that maneuverability should be more influenced by speed same with weapon damage off horseback. That way cavalry charges are the main mechanic of the class, and those who wish to swerve around infantry and engage are more left to specialist classes like Horse Archers and Heavy Infantry on Cavalry.

I also think only spear bracing (a suggested animation where one crouches and points their spear) should rear a horse, that way cavalry don't run around and only look for unwitting people.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Trikipum on July 02, 2012, 01:23:07 am

Quote from: Turkhammer on July 01, 2012, 06:45:20 pm

Failed example with the quarter horse video at the rodeo.  Quarter horses are completely different from a heavy war horse.  It's like comparing a Porsche with a truck.

Are you aware that all these kind of "quarter" horses are descendant of real arabian horses and more?. We already have the granfathers of those horses ingame...

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: polkafranzi on July 02, 2012, 01:33:52 am

I think the best thing the devs can do for us will be completely change horse models to make them much less dangerous, it's the only way ranged and inf players will be satisfied.  Obviously horses should be useless like they were in the medieval period, so I suggest we change the current beasts for something a little more...on the safer side. At the moment we have this:

(click to show/hide)

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

but i'd like to see:

(click to show/hide)

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

maybe finally it would be "balanced"?  No more riding skill, the players athletics could determine the speed and manouvere (max 5kmh and 3-point turn capability, seatbelt mandatory).

QQ

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: OpenPalm on July 02, 2012, 01:40:09 am

To people saying that horse controls are unrealistic:  So is horses running into trees.  No horse is ever going to be spurred by a person into running into a tree.  Why not give horses auto-dodging of obstacles, like would be realistic?  Oh, because that would be silly.  Horse controls are fine.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: LordBerenger on July 02, 2012, 01:46:06 am

Quote from: polkafranzi on July 02, 2012, 01:33:52 am

I think the best thing the devs can do for us will be completely change horse models to make them much less dangerous, it's the only way ranged and inf players will be satisfied.  Obviously horses should be useless like they were in the medieval period, so I suggest we change the current beasts for something a little more...on the safer side. At the moment we have this:

(click to show/hide)

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

but i'd like to see:

(click to show/hide)

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

maybe finally it would be "balanced"?  No more riding skill, the players athletics could determine the speed and manouvere (max 5kmh and 3-point turn capability, seatbelt mandatory).

QQ

OMG IMPLEMENT IT NOW! FUCKING BADASS! Spawnkilling with these beasts.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Havoco on July 02, 2012, 01:54:36 am

Just make it a medieval version of tribes:ascend. Do it

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on July 02, 2012, 02:01:56 am

Quote from: chadz on July 01, 2012, 02:59:28 pm

So we were discussing horses yesterday, and were trying to come up with ideas how to change horses in general. Note - this is in no way a balance thread, so if you think horses are OP or UP, and feel you have to communicate this, please, gtfo.

For everyone else - what changes could be done to increase the player skill needed to ride a horse? Right now, it's W to accelerate, S to decelerate. Therefore, it's more like a motorbike than a horse. Maybe someone who has done real riding has some insight how we could translate rider skill into a game mechanic? Riding should be difficulty in itself, just as flying a plane in a game would be. Riding needs more nuances.

Anyone got some ideas.

Add 3-5 levels of speed as:

Trott
Canter
Gallop

And you set and forget each one, each level results in a lowering of manoeuvre but a fixed speed increase. Add a new stat to horses, acceleration. It dictates how fast a horse can move through the different levels of speed.

Add stamina for horses, if you gallop continuously the horses should shit a brick after say 2min (yeah I know it's not realistic). It adds a level of management that may result in a different kind of cav player, manoeuvring.

Add an icon to the bottom left that shows what the horses is doing ie canter or gallop

Add side stepping, perhaps q&e that allows the horse to step directly left or right when still or trotting.

Take away horses rearing and instead add an eject button~!~ Depending on encumbrance you can leap off the horse at different levels and take a small amount of damage, would be great if you could leap off and tackle people.

Buff the shit out of horse bump but make it only work at a gallop so bellow gallop you only bump them aside like a kick or stun them like a punch with some of the lowest speeds.

If cav slam into an object the player should be dismounted and the horse should take off forcing them to whistle for the horse.

That's all I can think of.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: engurrand on July 02, 2012, 02:24:15 am

Quote from: polkafranzi on July 02, 2012, 01:33:52 am

I think the best thing the devs can do for us will be completely change horse models to make them much less dangerous, it's the only way ranged and inf players will be satisfied.  Obviously horses should be useless like they were in the medieval period, so I suggest we change the current beasts for something a little more...on the safer side. At the moment we have this:

(click to show/hide)

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

but i'd like to see:

(click to show/hide)

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maybe finally it would be "balanced"?  No more riding skill, the players athletics could determine the speed and manouvere (max 5kmh and 3-point turn capability, seatbelt mandatory).

QQ

This guy is a professional...

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Vkvkvk on July 02, 2012, 02:25:17 am

Quote from: ROHYPNOL on July 01, 2012, 05:23:27 pm

lemmy winks said horses arent as maneuverable as this game.... are you kidding me lol.. they are way more maneuverable and faster than this game man lol

here is your proof.. take a good look and slap yourself

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awR1zuyfXwo&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awR1zuyfXwo&feature=related)

Only problem with this video is that not only are the horses protected to specifically do maneuvers like that, the terrain is also perfect for them to do such maneuver. So unless we fight in a fucking horse racing map, horses won't have the pleasure of not breaking their ankles on shitty terrains and no ankle protections, not to mention that these guys aren't sporting gear weighting 50+ lbs around.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Trikipum on July 02, 2012, 02:32:22 am

Seeing the amount of silly recomendations i can say most of people posting here never got a horse, at least no in crpg. Many of these suggestions are so stupid i wont even comment on them, just will add my own stupid tip to improve the horse experience.
You should add a new kind of ammo for both xbows and bows. HTEA. That is. Horse Tracking Explosive Ammo. The name its self explanatory and my suggestion makes as much sense as 90% of what im seeing here. Just will say that adding a delay to the horse is like the worst thing you would ever do. People doesnt seem to realize that you have to be hard on your horse's brake before turning, that is for any horse. You turn shit at high speeds, and that is for any horse also. Its just that the arabian horse brakes and acelerates so fast you may not notice it if you are a brainless infantry player (not saying inf is for brainless, just that most brainless seem playing it). Guys bitching so much are usually that kind of inf player that charges straight in a line with 0 awareness and gets spanked by all the sides. You dont see many archers bitching about. Why?. Good archers are used to dodge horse charges and can literally "bullfight" a horse rider for minutes. Indeed, ill say that in 1vs1 with both players awareness, only 1h hasnt an edge over the horse. Rest of classes are likely to kill the horse if manned by the right person.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Leesin on July 02, 2012, 08:00:24 am

chadz seems to think that making it so "horses require more player skill" isn't balancing or a nerf, when it is, thus the mature guy he is, he edited my main post which said why it's individual builds that need nerfing on horseback, not how horses work themselves, considering you pay a fuck load of upkeep for a horse that can be downed by a couple of well placed arrows. ( Which are plentifully spammed around the map in most matches )

Why add a mini game to even get the horse moving properly when it's already easy to down a horse if your teams archers do not suffer from tunnel vision. Cav are highly vulnerable to ranged and polearms, it's players that need to be more aware of what's going on behind them rather than horses requiring more player skill, most people I see killed by lancers are just overly focused on one target in one direction. Half of them are the beginning of a map before the main engagement has even happened, because they're not looking anywhere but forward as they sprint to the battle, that's just feeding the lancers.

 Maybe Arabian warhorse and some loomed horses need balancing in whatever way you wish, but other than that, some kind of mechanic making it a challenge to even move the horse around is just going to eventually narrow down the different cav classes, leaving mostly just lancers, rather than the cav builds that require alot more thinking and maneuvering.

At the end of the day, I would place money on that even if some kind of minigame control for the horses was to be added, you'd still have a shit ton of whine and no cheese to go with it.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: bruce on July 02, 2012, 08:14:42 am

About horse movement:
- Alternative controls are bad, really, because you only have your fingers with which you have to both ride and attack, you can't control anything over your computer with your legs, thighs and such. Infantry also has counterstrike movement controls... eh.

- If you want more sensible movement, then less maneuver (for arabians and stuff, too, they get more maneuver then the fast horse line gets speed, and ride like go-karts), more speed (possibly a triggerable "charge"?). Significantly less maneuver at high speeds then now, also slower decelerating.

- Terrain (uneven, obstacles) should have more impact. Oberyn had a good suggestion about stakes and such doing damage.


About generic balance stuff:
- Running into chambered spears should cause damage.

- All variants of unarmoured horse (especially heirloomed ones) have too much HP, so charging into a spear / pike / getting shot up is not penalized as much as it should be. Unarmoured horses being able to turn and ride away after a pike/spear stab should not be the norm.

About horses charging:
This suggestion is good:

" give them a charge mode with cooldown,   having a high maneuverability penalty but a great speed bonus whilst their basic speed is nerfed greatly
 (example: basic courser speed 40, maneuver 41;  charging speed 50,  maneuver 31)
-make their corpses crush trough and in return make them a lot more fragile vs anti-cav weapons aaaand make the rider take a high amount of damage."

Generally speaking, if you want horse charge to become something nasty and counterable with pikes/spears (or well placed ranged) but not with just any random weapon, then horse corpses should do damage; in that way, without support weapons you will get hurt. However, if they get the ability to charge properly the "ninja" capabilities have to go down to compensate, naturally.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Torben on July 02, 2012, 09:58:47 am

Quote from: Kryser on July 02, 2012, 01:15:30 am

You could implement a series of commands to "walk" "gate" and "gallop"

fuck yeah!  keep the directional keys,  but turn "w" and "s" into voice commands that encourage the horse to go faster or slower.  the more riding skill you have,  the more impact the command has.

also change riders model according to horses speed, giving him a stance when galloping.  last but not least,  give horses either aforementioned gallop/charge mode with cooldown or even better,  make all horses +10 faster and - 10 maneuver,  whilst giving horses corpses crush through : )


edit,  with decreasesed maneuver,  restore the old lance spectrum ^^

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: BlueKnight on July 02, 2012, 10:23:11 am

Alright you all smart brains etc. about that hitting obstacles with a horse, how should it be done when a horse hits other horse? Also the telepoting of cav that sometimes happen or just lag can kill your horse then :\ I like the damage horse by hitting objects but we should think about all factors. I suggest receiving dmg for the horse that got hit by other horse.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on July 02, 2012, 10:43:43 am

make it work like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnZU4l9Lfyg

horse rides automatic, WASD only for staying on the horse :P


seriously I like the thought of more difficult riding but have no idea how to do it with 1 hand on keyboard. Perhaps somekind of thrust (like in space game) with mousewheel (can you expect everyone to have one?) and use A+D to counterbalance horsemovement otherwise you fall down, but I'll doubt that would work/be fun.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Lannistark on July 02, 2012, 10:47:30 am

- The stamina idea is a pretty good one. It's unrealistic a horse blazes through the battlefield at top speed with 100kg of weight over it. A stamina system where the faster you go and the more weight you carry, the stamina decreases more seems fine. Then horse can only trot and recover stamina slowly.

- Obstacles are good as well. At the moment bumping into trees or something does not make any damage to horse or rider. I suggest adding a damage penalty depending on the speed (as the damage system inflicted when attacking on horse in warband singleplayer) i.e: x = $horse speed ; x* "whatever variable you want to add" = whatever. Then inflict that penalty on horse | rider.

- Concerning rider. I think there should be a probability for the rider to fall of horse when attacked by melee. Currently when horses bump into a wave of enemies nothing happens to them as they are in full plate of chargers. Again, another multiplier such as x = $riding skill ; x * "whatever variable you want to add" = whatever. Or a random seed could work as well.

- Controls for horses should remain the same. The difficulty should come in game variables, not in game controls. Most new players have trouble lancing someone already, so I suggest increasing the difficulty of lances ie: making them slower or more difficult to aim when at high speeds.


EDIT: Make Ctrl + J the pro tool for horsemen.  :mrgreen:

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Idzo on July 02, 2012, 10:54:17 am

Make couch last for 2-3 seconds so guys who play cav have to have good timing on using couch.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: bruce on July 02, 2012, 11:21:59 am

Quote from: Lannistark on July 02, 2012, 10:47:30 am

- The stamina idea is a pretty good one. It's unrealistic a horse blazes through the battlefield at top speed with 100kg of weight over it. A stamina system where the faster you go and the more weight you carry, the stamina decreases more seems fine. Then horse can only trot and recover stamina slowly.

But there is no gallop / topspeed in crpg, esp. slower horses (but more agile) are more like something... I don't know what, but not horses. A triggerable (cooldown) gallop + much less maneuver would make horses behave more like horses.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: AvengerC47 on July 02, 2012, 01:20:14 pm

Quote from: Leshma on July 01, 2012, 11:08:51 pm

Like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIS-OBGmhbM)?

I mean, I kinda liked that but most people stopped riding horses in that game because it's frustrating for them.

so... it will be better ;)


but without damaging a horse coz of speed and maybe with some stamina in max speed

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Joseph Porta on July 02, 2012, 02:09:00 pm

 Less acceleration, Fairly high top speed just a longer to get there would make such a differance.. No instant-top-speed retard god horses.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Kafein on July 02, 2012, 03:11:05 pm

Skillbased = freedom + unforgiving.

This post is to be considered as a whole, otherwise it isn't balanced.

Riding can be made unforgiving :

1) Collisions

Collisions should be very serious business. Two horses colliding = two riders that fall down and take damage, no matter who stopped who. Eventually horses stay alive and flee, depending on the force of the impact. Collisions with obstacles should have even worse consequences.


2) Blocking on horse

It is not normal that fairly frequently the horse is protected when the rider blocks. An error is an error and should have consequences.


3) Tanking with horses

No playstyle should ever rely on tanking damage. All horse HP values must be decreased and all armor removed from horses that visually don't have armor.


4) Armored riders

I'm one of them and this only makes my point even more valid. Create a tradeoff for wearing armor on a horse. Currently there is no downside to it. I think each horse should have a cap on how much weight it is able to carry, and it's max speed and acceleration should also be influenced by the weight of the rider.


Simultaneously, riding should offer more possibilities :

1) Maneuver

Contrary to popular belief among players which aren't very used to cav, decreasing maneuver cannot make cav more skillbased, only less. Skill is what you make of your freedom, if you don't have freedom, your skill doesn't matter. If anything, maneuver needs to be increased a lot on all horses.

2) Speed

Speed needs to be increased slightly in flat plains and massively on smooth elevations (the usual not-quite-hilly-but-still-renders-your-horse-useless kind of terrain). Having good horse speed on hills is of course unrealistic, but so are the maps in this mod. Fix the maps and make realistic terrain, then we can speak about horse speed reductions on slopes.

2) Lance angle

Return the old lance angle (again, skill through freedom and I think this one is widely accepted).

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: bruce on July 02, 2012, 03:20:55 pm

Kafein, I agree, except with horse maneuver. More speed is fine, esp. on flat grounds (and there should be more flat grounds), but maneuver? No.

It is all too easy to avoid nasty things even with a moderately-maneuverable horse. When you get up to full speed, being able to stop very quickly and veer off, makes it too easy. Yes, it makes it possible for a skilled horseman to do more, however... your options should be quite restricted when you charge and then see a pike/spear 5 metres away, else it's again too easy even for a mediocre horseman.

Being able to evade too easily is somewhat solved by reintroducing normal lancing angles.

Armour reducing speed by a significant margin is neither that realistic (unless the effect is slight, or impacts only really heavy armour on "light" horses) nor balanced (it favours horse ranged which tend to wear less, as it makes it fair easier for them to shoot lancers / 1h cav dead).

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Torben on July 02, 2012, 03:22:53 pm

Quote from: Kafein on July 02, 2012, 03:11:05 pm

(click to show/hide)

Skillbased = freedom + unforgiving.

This post is to be considered as a whole, otherwise it isn't balanced.

Riding can be made unforgiving :

1) Collisions

Collisions should be very serious business. Two horses colliding = two riders that fall down and take damage, no matter who stopped who. Eventually horses stay alive and flee, depending on the force of the impact. Collisions with obstacles should have even worse consequences.


2) Blocking on horse

It is not normal that fairly frequently the horse is protected when the rider blocks. An error is an error and should have consequences.


3) Tanking with horses

No playstyle should ever rely on tanking damage. All horse HP values must be decreased and all armor removed from horses that visually don't have armor.


4) Armored riders

I'm one of them and this only makes my point even more valid. Create a tradeoff for wearing armor on a horse. Currently there is no downside to it. I think each horse should have a cap on how much weight it is able to carry, and it's max speed and acceleration should also be influenced by the weight of the rider.


Simultaneously, riding should offer more possibilities :

1) Maneuver

Contrary to popular belief among players which aren't very used to cav, decreasing maneuver cannot make cav more skillbased, only less. Skill is what you make of your freedom, if you don't have freedom, your skill doesn't matter. If anything, maneuver needs to be increased a lot on all horses.

2) Speed

Speed needs to be increased slightly in flat plains and massively on smooth elevations (the usual not-quite-hilly-but-still-renders-your-horse-useless kind of terrain). Having good horse speed on hills is of course unrealistic, but so are the maps in this mod. Fix the maps and make realistic terrain, then we can speak about horse speed reductions on slopes.

2) Lance angle

Return the old lance angle (again, skill through freedom and I think this one is widely accepted).

sounds great,  specially the two horses collide,  riders fall off thing would be great fun ^^
removing armor and  reducing hp on horses however would need an adjustment concerning ranged.  a horse dying from one shot to the body is like you dying from a toothpick sticking in your shoulder.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: bruce on July 02, 2012, 03:25:39 pm

Not really, bows were/are used throughout time to hunt for large game as well, a high-power bow (like the rus/longbow in crpg) is very lethal to unarmoured targets, moreso then in crpg. Archers shooting in the flanks of a cavalry charge was quite effective, if you had time to set up defenses so they can't charge them directly.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Overdriven on July 02, 2012, 03:28:11 pm

Horses colliding thing sounds kind of daft to me. I just don't think it would make sense in the game environment. The maps simply aren't big enough unless on open plains or desert and so with even a medium number of horsemen per side collisions are inevitable. I'd like a complete over haul of the maps if something like that was introduced.

Quote from: bruce on July 02, 2012, 03:25:39 pm

Not really, bows were/are used throughout time to hunt for large game as well, a high-power bow (like the rus/longbow in crpg) is very lethal to unarmoured targets, moreso then in crpg. Archers shooting in the flanks of a cavalry charge was quite effective, if you had time to set up defenses so they can't charge them directly.

From a game balance + enjoyment perspective though, having your horse 1 shot by a rus bow would not be fun. Would seriously negate any point of putting points in riding for most people if your horse dies instantly.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: bruce on July 02, 2012, 03:29:07 pm

Every map a random plains (large) map with little elevation, and perhaps a random ruin here and there. That would be great.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Teeth on July 02, 2012, 03:35:40 pm

Quote from: Kafein on July 02, 2012, 03:11:05 pm

3) Tanking with horses

No playstyle should ever rely on tanking damage. All horse HP values must be decreased and all armor removed from horses that visually don't have armor.

That is kinda what medieval cavalry did. They crushed into their enemies using momentum and weight. Decreasing HP and armor will only increase the lame thing that cav is in this mod. A backstabbing class. I think cavalry should be changed in something that can effectively attack an aware enemy, but only those with short weapons. I really don't know why anyone would want cav to rely completely on backstabbing, also ranged would rape horses if they get any less durable.

Quote from: Kafein on July 02, 2012, 03:11:05 pm

1) Maneuver

Contrary to popular belief among players which aren't very used to cav, decreasing maneuver cannot make cav more skillbased, only less. Skill is what you make of your freedom, if you don't have freedom, your skill doesn't matter. If anything, maneuver needs to be increased a lot on all horses.

Everytime I've played cav I noticed how much more room for error I had when I used an Arabian. High maneuver allows you to fuck up, but get out before you get properly punished for your mistake. You can also charge someone, back off at the last moment, you don't have to commit and deal with the consequences of a bad judgement call. You can even run into a pike and use your super acceleration to get out alive.

Having lower maneuver forces cav to anticipate, people with good battle awareness will make the proper choices, and be good cav and therefore it will be more skillbased. With even higher maneuver every joker can just turn around whenever his shitty plan turns out to not work.

Make horses a lot tougher on the front, but not versus pikemen, less maneuverable and make their hooves noise louder. Cav will be able to do much more against an aware enemy. Lower manuever means that they are less unpredictable and maybe that will make people more aware of cav. You just spot them once, see that they are not going to be a danger. With the current Arabians, you have to look around every 5 seconds cause they could've turned around at any time.

Obviously give them their lance angle back. That is long overdue.

Fuck, now I missed the point of this thread aswell, discussing how to fix the current system like a derp.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: bruce on July 02, 2012, 03:42:48 pm

Quote from: SgtTeeh on July 02, 2012, 03:35:40 pm

That is kinda what medieval cavalry did. They crushed into their enemies using momentum and weight. Decreasing HP and armor will only increase the lame thing that cav is in this mod. A backstabbing class. I think cavalry should be changed in something that can effectively attack an aware enemy, but only those with short weapons. I really don't know why anyone would want cav to rely completely on backstabbing, also ranged would rape horses if they get any less durable.

Yes... but the thing is, the extra HP cavalry has right now is used for more forgiving backstabbing, where you can drive around for longer even if you screw up. It should at the very least have less HP versus all types of spears and pikes; running into pikes with an unarmoured horse and turning away isn't good balance by any means.

As for ranged, onehitting would not be fun, but current balance is also skewered, too, heirloomed horses take too much to shoot down. 4-6 arrows for a horse which can get out of range very quickly is far too forgiving. (Heirloomed) Destriers are almost like tanks vs ranged, while still having decent speed.

The only way a cavalry charge is going to make sense to do is if it is more or less devastating if done vs infantry without pikes/spears, but doing that without making them super-backstabbing machines used to kill some lone infantry is the problem*. Maybe horse corpses actually "knocking down" infantry with knockdown and some damage would make a cavalry charge work vs short weapons, since your impulse would be to "get away from the horse" rather then "stab horse in forehead with my sword".

*Where low maneuver would actually help.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: LordBerenger on July 02, 2012, 03:58:49 pm

And even more removing fun from this mod....sigh, can't you just play at fuckin melee only servers? Jeeez

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Lamk on July 02, 2012, 03:59:20 pm

Quote from: bruce on July 02, 2012, 03:42:48 pm

As for ranged, onehitting would not be fun, but current balance is also skewered, too, heirloomed horses take too much to shoot down. 4-6 arrows for a horse which can get out of range very quickly is far too forgiving. (Heirloomed) Destriers are almost like tanks vs ranged, while still having decent speed.

I have a champion courser and strength archers take 2 arrows to kill it and I'm still 100 feet from them

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Joker86 on July 02, 2012, 04:01:07 pm

Quote from: Kafein on July 02, 2012, 03:11:05 pm

1) Maneuver

Contrary to popular belief among players which aren't very used to cav, decreasing maneuver cannot make cav more skillbased, only less. Skill is what you make of your freedom, if you don't have freedom, your skill doesn't matter. If anything, maneuver needs to be increased a lot on all horses.

Funny, I would lower the maneuverability of horses two to three points each, with no horse having more than 40. Currently the Arab Warhorse is plainly ridiculous.

Horses are not supposed to be some kind of super mobile hover platform to wiggle over the battlefield like a dragonfly. 

And I also agree about your freedom = skill equation. I could easily counter that things get more difficult with limitations. To master them in the same extend like before you require skill.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on July 02, 2012, 04:07:07 pm

Sorry I'm late to the party, only read first two pages so far...going to try to keep reading through the day...Full disclosure: I'm a 10th gen cav lancer

Hobb hit the nail on the head for me, just make it so that your view "bobs" up and down with the horse.  At least it may be worth trying (it may be impossible to swing with the screen bobbing, but at least it would be more realistic and also more challenging).  As it stands, horse lancing and crossbowery is very easy from horse back because you don't actually have the effect of riding a horse on your view.  Maybe start with a very tiny "bob" effect, like Lemmy said, you're not going to completely bob up and down, you'd brace yourself to try and minimize the effect.

Stamina would be a good addition in game (start with horses like red dead redemption, hopefully bring it to characters as well in the future so you get tired if you keep spamming a great maul). 

Also deployable siege defense equipment like stakes for archers would be amazing (doesn't necessarily have to damage horses as that may be hard to code, but just making it so horses can't go to certain areas would be good).

Quote from: Sauce on July 01, 2012, 04:36:47 pm

joey bologna - allow horses to pick up an extra person at considerable hit to speed/maneuver

That would be amazing...I've mentioned that before too.

Another thing some people have mentioned that I really like is realistic, if horses take damage sometimes they become uncontrollable (and/or buck the rider).  A horse getting shot with arrows and then being uncontrollable for 2-5 seconds would be pretty realistic. 

I'm just brainstorming here, not necessarily looking to implement all these ideas, maybe just some.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Torben on July 02, 2012, 04:08:23 pm

Quote from: CrazyCracka420 on July 02, 2012, 04:07:07 pm

Sorry I'm late to the party, only read first two pages so far...

Hobb hit the nail on the head for me, just make it so that your view "bobs" up and down with the horse.  At least it may be worth trying (it may be impossible to swing with the screen bobbing, but at least it would be more realistic and also more challenging).  As it stands, horse lancing and crossbowery is very easy from horse back because you don't actually have the effect of riding a horse on your view.

weird, my horse never bobs around if I ride a horse.  doesnt when I run on foot either.  I knew I am special ^^

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Tydeus on July 02, 2012, 04:35:20 pm

Shik explained the current speed of horses and how it relates to horse speeds irl. The tldr is that they're too fast. Gallop wasn't really used in combat as it was too hard to control while fighting. Maybe implement something like this? Once you start going a certain percent of the horses max speed lancing/swinging your weapon becomes cumbersome. Randomize the mouse speed, make the lance thrust be off center and side swings slower/less damage, etc.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on July 02, 2012, 04:46:10 pm

For the record, a lot of people have been QQ"ing about cavalry lately, but they aren't overpowered (nothing in the game is).  A team with decent tactics, teamwork and the right equipment makes cavalry useless.  The only reason you see people QQ'ing about horses is because the balance system blows ass in this game, and because a lot of infantry not only want to, but fully expect to be able to run around and be "rambo" and then qq when paper beats rock.

I still propose cavalry only "appears" OP to some people, because infantry doesn't work together.  One person running by themselves SHOULD be easy prey for a cavalry lancer. 

The best way to counter the cavalry QQ'ers, is to force mandatory "practice" or drills, like they do in Mount and Musket.  Get a dev or admin on each team and tell everyone to stfu and listen.  Make them run in loose formations with pikemen on the sides and rears, shields in the front.

Until infantry gets a fucking clue, you will continue to have people whine about cavalry.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: LordBerenger on July 02, 2012, 05:42:05 pm

I hate these gay infantry only ''master race'' kids.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Leesin on July 02, 2012, 07:16:51 pm

Quote from: CountBerenger on July 02, 2012, 05:42:05 pm

I hate these gay infantry only ''master race'' kids.

Most of the anti-cav QQers are the guys that sprint from spawn directly towards enemy, looking in no other direction than straight ahead of them, then spam the chat with whine when they get lanced in the back because they weren't paying attention to what was coming up behind them, any decent player should know to look out behind and to the sides for lancers, especially at the start of a round.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Micah on July 02, 2012, 07:50:58 pm

Quote from: chadz on July 01, 2012, 02:59:28 pm

So we were discussing horses yesterday, and were trying to come up with ideas how to change horses in general. Note - this is in no way a balance thread, so if you think horses are OP or UP, and feel you have to communicate this, please, gtfo.

For everyone else - what changes could be done to increase the player skill needed to ride a horse? Right now, it's W to accelerate, S to decelerate. Therefore, it's more like a motorbike than a horse. Maybe someone who has done real riding has some insight how we could translate rider skill into a game mechanic? Riding should be difficulty in itself, just as flying a plane in a game would be. Riding needs more nuances.

Anyone got some ideas.

So we were discussing archery yesterday, and were trying to come up with ideas how to change archers in general. Note - this is in no way a balance thread, so if you think archers are OP or UP, and feel you have to communicate this, please, gtfo.

For everyone else - what changes could be done to increase the player skill needed to shoot a bow? Right now, it's W to runaway , LMB to shoot an arrow. Therefore, it's more like a gun than a bow. Maybe someone who has done real bowshooting has some insight how we could translate archery skill into a game mechanic? Archery should be difficulty in itself, just as <???> in a game would be. Archery needs more nuances.

So we were discussing shielders yesterday, and were trying to come up with ideas how to change shielders in general. Note - this is in no way a balance thread, so if you think shielders are OP or UP, and feel you have to communicate this, please, gtfo.

For everyone else - what changes could be done to increase the player skill needed to play a shielder? Right now, it's LMB to swing a sword, RMB to rise a shield. Therefore, it's more like a <monkey drilled to press 2 buttons> than a real <warrior fighing in an epic battle>. Maybe someone who has done real swordfighting has some insight how we could translate swordman skill into a game mechanic? swordfight should be difficulty in itself, just as <doing hardcore sports> in a game would be. fighting needs more nuances.

Anyone got some ideas.

i am really  SORRY, and i dont wanna get over my head , i dont want to whore for fame and the last thing i want is to make the creator of tis awesome game pissed ,but i feel like i need to state a controverse opinion . i love that awesome game which chadz and all the other cool devs  created for us/me, still working hard on it and generously  give it to us FOR FREE just so we can have most awesome fun anyone can imagine while wasting our lifetime  :lol:
yet this OP makes no sense at all to me . :(
it is not possible to come up with a new,"skillfull" way of puting riding in a wargame without thinking about ballancing it into the game and thus this idea would not belong here because the OP forbids ballance discussioins. Besides this community is (and has to be) biased with cRPG  gameplay experiances .Thus this this thread turned into a mess of a mix of QQ,nerf cries,ballance issues, and some really ambitious and great ideas about game ballance related cav changes .. no single post fits for  the OP because it cant.
thinking about the reason for this OP makes me wonder is it either :
- an awesome troll - in this case i must admit you got me there really good and its one of the most awesome trolls i ever seen :mrgreen:
- a call to the community to help them increase their own game experiance addressing cavalry issues - in this case i feel the greatest respect and happieness BUT the OP would be somewhat contradictous and should be rephrased somehow

each class in this game requires enough skill (game mechanics wise ) and is fun to play   :)

Quote from: CrazyCracka420 on July 02, 2012, 04:46:10 pm

(click to show/hide)

For the record, a lot of people have been QQ"ing about cavalry lately, but they aren't overpowered (nothing in the game is).  A team with decent tactics, teamwork and the right equipment makes cavalry useless.  The only reason you see people QQ'ing about horses is because the balance system blows ass in this game, and because a lot of infantry not only want to, but fully expect to be able to run around and be "rambo" and then qq when paper beats rock.

I still propose cavalry only "appears" OP to some people, because infantry doesn't work together.  One person running by themselves SHOULD be easy prey for a cavalry lancer. 

The best way to counter the cavalry QQ'ers, is to force mandatory "practice" or drills, like they do in Mount and Musket.  Get a dev or admin on each team and tell everyone to stfu and listen.  Make them run in loose formations with pikemen on the sides and rears, shields in the front.

Until infantry gets a fucking clue, you will continue to have people whine about cavalry.

^this


the only problem i see with cav is that it acts on a different level of gameplay which i call macro (tactical) layer where all infantry is acting on the micro(fighting)  layer (how i call it) and can only be harmonized into the game by changing the meta(teamplay) layer
but that is of no matter here

edit: and : yes, i did read eah single post in this thread  :?

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Frell on July 02, 2012, 09:08:37 pm

You don't think its weird that shielders and 2h/p have to worry about timing and countering while cav can just play the game like grand theft auto?

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Micah on July 02, 2012, 09:19:46 pm

Quote from: Frell on July 02, 2012, 09:08:37 pm

You don't think its weird that shielders and 2h/p have to worry about timing and countering while cav can just play the game like grand theft auto?

let me help you pick which category of posts your one is ok

Quote from: Frell on July 02, 2012, 09:08:37 pm

Thus this this thread turned into a mess of a mix of QQ,nerf cries,ballance issues, and some really ambitious and great ideas about cav changes .. no single post fits for  the OP because it cant.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Frell on July 02, 2012, 09:24:20 pm

Brilliant. The standard "my class if fine, everyone who thinks its OP is a QQer and anyone who thinks its UP is my friend!" I never commented at all on the damage of cav. Nothing about cav is overpowered but the role is still easy to play compared to everything else, and chadz wants that to change.


And I already contributed to a non-nerfing suggestion. Look on the first page.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: polkafranzi on July 02, 2012, 09:28:39 pm

Quote from: Micah on July 02, 2012, 07:50:58 pm

For everyone else - what changes could be done to increase the player skill needed to play a shielder? Right now, it's just LEFT DIRECTION and press LMB 100 times a second to swing a sword, RMB to rise a shield. Therefore, it's more like a <monkey drilled to press 2 buttons> than a real <warrior fighing in an epic battle>. Maybe someone who has done real swordfighting has some insight how we could translate swordman skill into a game mechanic? swordfight should be difficulty in itself, just as <doing hardcore sports> in a game would be. fighting needs more nuances.

^ fixed

Also, if i'm not mistaken, Frell plays archer? So ignore any post he makes on whole forum.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on July 02, 2012, 09:30:10 pm

I think you're greatly oversimplifying cavalry, and undermining infantry's own responsibility.  "i'm not retarded, nor is all my single minded teammates who can't be bothered to use a pike, or run in a group with a pikeman".

one pike, one long spear, one pitch fork, and a horse is nullified.  2 1h'ers standing next to each other, first guy gets hit, 2nd guy takes out the rider or the horse.  Seems really overpowered to me.

I'm not just saying not only are cavalry not overpowered, nothing in the game is overpowered.  Cavalry is always going to pick apart a team of rambo's who run around on their own.  Cavalry is pretty much useless whenever infantry is organized into semi-formed groups with lancers/pikemen in the group (not to mention throwers or other ranged).  A couple throwers in a group and I'm basically cut off from that section of the map. 

Stop blaming everyone else, and take some responsibility for your actions.  Cavalry can easily be countered, do you have the intelligence and organizational skills to do so?  That's the real issue.

Almost every nerf or QQ thread boils down to people not wanting to use the tactics or equipment to counter what they're whining about.  God forbid I should have to change my play style to counter another class, that's blasphemy. 

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Frell on July 02, 2012, 09:30:30 pm

Quote from: polkafranzi on July 02, 2012, 09:28:39 pm

^ fixed

Also, if i'm not mistaken, Frell plays archer? So ignore any post he makes on whole forum.

No, I haven't played archer in over a year and I don't enjoy the class one bit. YOU suspected I played archer.


Valperga is a shielder

Frell is a 2h

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: polkafranzi on July 02, 2012, 09:35:45 pm

Quote from: Frell on July 02, 2012, 09:30:30 pm

No, I haven't played archer in over a year and I don't enjoy the class one bit. YOU suspected I played archer.


Valperga is a shielder

Frell is a 2h

Well, so much cav hate can only come from an archer or a 2her  :wink: so I guess i was close.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Frell on July 02, 2012, 09:37:03 pm

I don't hate the cavs damage, I hate their constant motorcycle speed that never changes and them bumping people with no consequences (like the horse breaking a leg)  If a 2m fall ingame can kill them then so should ramming into a crowd of people.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Kafein on July 02, 2012, 11:02:07 pm

Quote from: SgtTeeh on July 02, 2012, 03:35:40 pm

That is kinda what medieval cavalry did. They crushed into their enemies using momentum and weight. Decreasing HP and armor will only increase the lame thing that cav is in this mod. A backstabbing class. I think cavalry should be changed in something that can effectively attack an aware enemy, but only those with short weapons. I really don't know why anyone would want cav to rely completely on backstabbing, also ranged would rape horses if they get any less durable.

Clearly low horse survivability isn't very realistic, but I don't think that is what makes cav a backstabbing class. I think low maneuver is the problem.

Quote from: SgtTeeh on July 02, 2012, 03:35:40 pm

Everytime I've played cav I noticed how much more room for error I had when I used an Arabian. High maneuver allows you to fuck up, but get out before you get properly punished for your mistake. You can also charge someone, back off at the last moment, you don't have to commit and deal with the consequences of a bad judgement call. You can even run into a pike and use your super acceleration to get out alive.

Having lower maneuver forces cav to anticipate, people with good battle awareness will make the proper choices, and be good cav and therefore it will be more skillbased. With even higher maneuver every joker can just turn around whenever his shitty plan turns out to not work.

Yes it forces cav to anticipate. But anticipating in this case only means adding areas where you don't want to go and people you can't kill. It doesn't open anything.

Quote from: SgtTeeh on July 02, 2012, 03:35:40 pm

Make horses a lot tougher on the front, but not versus pikemen, less maneuverable and make their hooves noise louder. Cav will be able to do much more against an aware enemy. Lower manuever means that they are less unpredictable and maybe that will make people more aware of cav. You just spot them once, see that they are not going to be a danger. With the current Arabians, you have to look around every 5 seconds cause they could've turned around at any time.

Obviously give them their lance angle back. That is long overdue.

Fuck, now I missed the point of this thread aswell, discussing how to fix the current system like a derp.

The HP of a low maneuver horse is irrelevant. With low maneuver the infantry guy will dodge the charge and hit the horse and/or the rider.



You actually have the same analysis as I had before the maneuver nerf (was quite a long time ago now). But playing both versions convinced me maneuver cannot be traded for survivability. The actual bottleneck that defines what enemies you are able to attack frontally is not armor, not HP and not charge damage, it's maneuver. There is no use in charging people that will dodge your attack and eventually harm you doing so.


Of course maneuver also allows cav to change plans at the last moment, but that's an acceptable collateral for enabling them decent duelling power, because no other will. The only successful way to fight aware enemies as cav is avoiding being hit, you only ever have one attack a a time. Reducing the agility of horses means it's harder to avoid being hit, which results in less frontal combat and more backstabbing.



Final note : avoiding being commited to your moves is also what makes the melee combat skillbased. What if you couldn't interrupt your attacks with blocks ? That's exactly how low maneuver horses are.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Yachdiel on July 03, 2012, 01:39:39 am

The best way to change horses is to change Mount and Blade entirely, the way horses run like Two Wheeled autobikes needs to be different.

-Cavalry did charge

-Cavalry sometimes did swerve between infantry and picked off some others

But the fact is, Cavalry both needed the support of their own infantry and to support their own infantry

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZUfzAFL5Ek (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZUfzAFL5Ek)
In the very beginning of this video for Mount and Blade 2 you see how they reinvented the way Cav moves. Horses can move in more directions than a bike does, horses themselves can probably backpedal the same as some infantry does (maybe not to the same extreme). And a lance Cavalry, with more maneuverability like this at low speeds, can support their infantry as much as a piker, and at high speeds could cavalry charge with reduced maneuverability (albeit some of the suggestions in this thread need to be considered about how easily they are taken out at highspeeds, but thats another story).

To improve difficulty I say change the playstyle to that that would require skill to learn and be of highest potential to the team...

Add horse animations like this and fix
-Cavalry difficulty
-the need for ridiculous poledancing pikers that would be replaced with team moving and supporting cavalry with a lance and some maneuverability
-the need for cavalry avoiding direct combat and using an absurd combo of extreme maneuverability at high speeds to swerve
-the low population of cavalry types that don't use lances
-the amount of overall horsebumping, enemy and team

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Joker86 on July 03, 2012, 01:56:30 am

Quote from: Kafein on July 02, 2012, 11:02:07 pm

[...]

Kafein, you are lobbying here for a cavalry playstyle I always hated. It's this circling around the enemy with an Arabian Warhorse, and attacking like some kind of dragonfly. But I think horses are not supposed to be like Muhammad Ali, float like a butterfly and sting like a bee.

And I think the backstabbing is perfectly okay. Cavalry should NOT be able to attack most people frontally, because then nothing would be left to compensate for their high mobility and the shitload of advantages ist brings. Yes, in real life cavalry attacked frontally, but this doesn't work in cRPG, because in real life every mounted warrior, never mind if knight, man at arms or a simple mounted sergeant, was worth more than several infantrymen, unless it's mounted sergeant vs. dismounted knight perhaps. But different "values" doesn't work in a multiplayer game. That's why you need to limit cav on backstabbing.

Cav is no duel class at all. Please reduce maneuverability of Arabian Warhose to something like 41 or 42, and the other horses accordingly. It's plain retarded to see a high riding skill Arab Warhorse rider charging a hoplite with his Ashwood pike, he releases his stab so that the horse would have been hit properly if it kept on charging, but immediately after the stab got released the horse is slowed down, the stab hits air, and while the hoplite is still recovering from the stab the horse accelerates again and the hoplite gets lance stabbed. I saw this. It's ridiculous.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Kafein on July 03, 2012, 02:38:47 am

Quote from: Joker86 on July 03, 2012, 01:56:30 am

Kafein, you are lobbying here for a cavalry playstyle I always hated. It's this circling around the enemy with an Arabian Warhorse, and attacking like some kind of dragonfly. But I think horses are not supposed to be like Muhammad Ali, float like a butterfly and sting like a bee.

And I think the backstabbing is perfectly okay. Cavalry should NOT be able to attack most people frontally, because then nothing would be left to compensate for their high mobility and the shitload of advantages ist brings. Yes, in real life cavalry attacked frontally, but this doesn't work in cRPG, because in real life every mounted warrior, never mind if knight, man at arms or a simple mounted sergeant, was worth more than several infantrymen, unless it's mounted sergeant vs. dismounted knight perhaps. But different "values" doesn't work in a multiplayer game. That's why you need to limit cav on backstabbing.

Let's not mix everything together.

I agree agility-centered cavalry isn't ideal by my standards either, but it's the only thing that works in a game where humans are not subject to inertia. The easiest path is changing horses.

It is also much more involved than just setting up a good attack route. Afterall, this is a game, and not a simulation. People are meant to have fun playing and be able to influence things with their controls.

Quote from: Joker86 on July 03, 2012, 01:56:30 am

Cav is no duel class at all. Please reduce maneuverability of Arabian Warhose to something like 41 or 42, and the other horses accordingly. It's plain retarded to see a high riding skill Arab Warhorse rider charging a hoplite with his Ashwood pike, he releases his stab so that the horse would have been hit properly if it kept on charging, but immediately after the stab got released the horse is slowed down, the stab hits air, and while the hoplite is still recovering from the stab the horse accelerates again and the hoplite gets lance stabbed. I saw this. It's ridiculous.

Even though what you describe is unrealistic to a degree, I believe this thread and the game is about skillbased gameplay. This is an example of a miss-timed strike, which can happen in any other type of fight whatsoever. Why would it be unacceptable for cav ?

What would actually be terrible would be "ho you commited to charge me 5 seconds earlier, sorry, I will hit you and you can't do anything about it", no skill, no fun. Just restrictions.

Btw, with the current maneuver values and terrain effect it happens quite often that people have the time to block my lance and hit my horse's back if they stand on 5 degree slopes.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Joker86 on July 03, 2012, 03:10:28 am

I guess in the end it boils down to the personal idea of how cavalry should be.

In my eyes cav should always remain only support role, similar to pikemen and crossbowman. In no way they should be able to take on most enemies on their own, even if the participation of the other teammates is limited on distracting the enemy so cav can backstab.

The act of fighting as cav itself is incredibly easy: just release the mouse button at the right moment. You will either score a hit, get blocked or miss. With a little bit exercise you won't miss any more, so it's either only a hit or getting blocked. Cav itself doesn't have to block that often, and if it has to, it's a) usually only once and b) happens with a shield, anyway. In comparison to archery and infantry cavalry needs only a fraction of skill and reflexes to fight and wound/kill enemies. Don't tell my ride-by-lancing is an art that needs to be mastered, it's easy as pie. At least hitting reliably in most standard situations. (Of course cav lancer duels and other stuff is more difficult, but you can have a positive K/D even without those things).

That's why the skill of cavalry should be more about "knowledge", like when to attack, from where, which way, which enemy and so on. It can't be compared to the other fighting styles, because the amount of reflexes and muscle memory needed to play cav successfully is really low. And I think this will never change. Ride by stabbing will always remain ride by stabbing.

Together with the high mobility of cavalry and all the other advantages it has I think everything which goes beyond backstabbing is way too OP for cav.

This is not about realism, it's about balance. There is a reason most top cavalry players rely on the Arab Warhorse.

Kafein, usually we agree, but this time I think you are biased towards your favourite horse and the success you have with it. Cavalry really shouldn't be infantry with 35 ATH.  :?

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Oberyn on July 03, 2012, 03:23:13 am

Joker, why were you so incredibly awful as cav?

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Canary on July 03, 2012, 03:51:31 am

Quote from: CrazyCracka420 on July 02, 2012, 09:30:10 pm

I think you're greatly oversimplifying cavalry, and undermining infantry's own responsibility.  "i'm not retarded, nor is all my single minded teammates who can't be bothered to use a pike, or run in a group with a pikeman".

one pike, one long spear, one pitch fork, and a horse is nullified.  2 1h'ers standing next to each other, first guy gets hit, 2nd guy takes out the rider or the horse.  Seems really overpowered to me.

I'm not just saying not only are cavalry not overpowered, nothing in the game is overpowered.  Cavalry is always going to pick apart a team of rambo's who run around on their own.  Cavalry is pretty much useless whenever infantry is organized into semi-formed groups with lancers/pikemen in the group (not to mention throwers or other ranged).  A couple throwers in a group and I'm basically cut off from that section of the map. 

Stop blaming everyone else, and take some responsibility for your actions.  Cavalry can easily be countered, do you have the intelligence and organizational skills to do so?  That's the real issue.

Almost every nerf or QQ thread boils down to people not wanting to use the tactics or equipment to counter what they're whining about.  God forbid I should have to change my play style to counter another class, that's blasphemy.

I think you're oversimplifying how exactly cavalry can be countered. I mean, I understand that the game isn't based around 1vs1 fighting, but your suggestion to counter one player riding a horse is to have more players next to you. Yeah, well, one player on multiple players is always stacked on the side with more players' favor. In your 1hander example, though, the threshold for the attention and diligence required is proportionally much higher on the side with more players than it would be in almost any other case. On top of which, if a shielder is alone, he shouldn't have a chance against a cavalry? He has to rely on having another player with him or he has to "be bothered" to carry a weapon he's not spec'd into or else or the cav player should have absolute dominion of him and automatically win? I'm personally not a fan of the "hard counters" or the rock-paper-scissor approach to balance, but I suppose there have to be some ways that certain specs are limited. It's just unfortunate that cavalry have such limited and specific counters.

You say that cavalry is useless when infantry is organized. Yes. A player charging into an organized group is going to lose (in this case the cavalry player), but that's essentially the same thing you're saying about the "rambo's who run around on their own." The difference is that the rambo (infantry) players don't require such specific equipment or playstyles to defeat when compared with a horseman. They're also far easier to avoid. But it's okay for the cav player to run around on his own and be less susceptible to predatory playstyles while being harder to deal with unless you're specifically prepared? That is an egregious double standard: Infantry has to organize to succeed, but cavalry does not.

I think we can agree that being aware is the way to defeat cavalry. But on the converse side of that: cavalry is entirely dependent on being an exploitive playstyle. It's not that it's overpowered, it's that it can take advantage of its ideal conditions so easily, more easily than any other playstyle. The sheer speed at which they can appear means that they're much harder to pay attention to or even notice before it's too late than other classes. They have more than one way to kill a player without allowing them to block. They don't have to engage if they don't want to, but they base their playstyle around engaging when other players don't want them to. If it's not unbalanced, it's certainly unfair.


Now for a more facetious response:
You have to have intelligence to beat cavalry, but cavalry can just wait until you're occupied and attack you without opposition. Yeah, guys, be intelligent! Take responsibility and change your class to succeed! In other words, roll cav.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Joker86 on July 03, 2012, 05:11:43 am

Quote from: Oberyn on July 03, 2012, 03:23:13 am

Joker, why were you so incredibly awful as cav?

Actually I had the best results with it, with the lowest effort  :?

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Oberyn on July 03, 2012, 05:40:45 am

Actually, you were terrible and got owned by literally any other cav. Just because you played like a massive pussy doesn't make the class OP, no more than Agor being a bundle of sticks camper makes crossbows OP.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: obitus on July 03, 2012, 05:49:32 am

Suggestions:

-Don't let infantry players balance the cavalry class
-Remove Ctrl-J
-Remove rearing animation when obstacles are hit.  Instead, the object should deal appropriate damage to the horse and the horse's location/direction should be altered by it instead of coming to a complete stop.  The only time a horse should come to a complete stop is doing something retarded like riding head on into a giant wall, which should toss the rider and damage the horse considerably.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Leesin on July 03, 2012, 07:49:06 am

Quote from: Frell on July 02, 2012, 09:24:20 pm

Brilliant. The standard "my class if fine, everyone who thinks its OP is a QQer and anyone who thinks its UP is my friend!" I never commented at all on the damage of cav. Nothing about cav is overpowered but the role is still easy to play compared to everything else, and chadz wants that to change.


And I already contributed to a non-nerfing suggestion. Look on the first page.

Being a shielder is the easiest role to play of all ( getting +1's to your scoreboard kills does not determine how well you have played ) and Horses are expensive to upkeep for a reason, they do give you an advantage in some situations.

And go play a horse archer and tell me just how "easy" it is.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Rheinhardt on July 03, 2012, 08:30:56 am

Right now horses are a liability in hand-to-hand melee fighting. A proper warhorse should be as dangerous a melee combatant as the rider. We should be able to rear our horse and cause AOE bumps and knockdowns with trampling. Shields could absorb the damage and bumps and of course pikemen could keep horses at bay, but if we want horses to be more than motorcycles for lancers we need to make wade-in-and-crush heavy cavalry an alternative.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: San on July 03, 2012, 09:01:49 am

Quote from: Canary on July 03, 2012, 03:51:31 am

Now for a more facetious response:
You have to have intelligence to beat cavalry, but cavalry can just wait until you're occupied and attack you without opposition. Yeah, guys, be intelligent! Take responsibility and change your class to succeed! In other words, roll cav.

That's what I did. Respeccing my level 33 pure shielder into a 1h/polearm hybrid for anti-cav was my way of adapting to cav as my counter. As I leveled back up, I became a cav myself. I think cav should just pay more dearly for mistakes (running into objects, getting reared, charging into too many people, etc.)

-speed based damage on collisions
-speed based damage when dehorsed (average speed would be ~20%)
-stun when horse is reared so you can't get off or stab the polearm player
-give old lance angles for spears 150 length and less. More of an anti-cav role
-More damage to head, remove extra damage to legs. Removes massive damage from teamhits to horse. Makes it difficult to charge ranged characters.
-Make it more difficult to U-turn at high speeds

(not sure about these one)
-bump damage affected less by armor. Lower bump damage for low armor, slightly higher bump damage for high armor. I wear heavy armor and can barely feel bumps, while low armored people lose half their health.
-Shield helps mitigate bump damage/higher speeds before knockdown. Was thinking to leave shielder lacking offensive capabilities against lancers, but at least receiving a few defensive ones. It would help protect low armor shielders from cav, although cav would still counter them.
-Rearing polearms do extra damage to horses. Not sure about this, but many of the support polearms can't do too much after finally stopping the horse. Sometimes they do to little damage to even kill the horse or damage the rider much.

I think increasing other class options/quirks against lancer cav would make it more skill-based. Not letting cav get away with mistakes easily would also make it more skill-based. Good ranged will be able to take out cav if they can land a headshot. Cav can avoid getting hit in the head, and would need to watch out for spear users with the wider lance angle. They would need to go a bit faster to knockdown turtles, etc. I think it would be difficult to vastly change the controls and receive a positive response and have the problems fixed.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Ealoseum on July 03, 2012, 11:59:59 am

Maybe make light horses go slightly slower if you are in heavy armor. Also could make the turning speed depend on armor weight and riding skill. And, if you add horse stamina, in could expend faster if the rider is heavy armored.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: LordBerenger on July 03, 2012, 12:27:59 pm

Lol, AOE bumps.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: bruce on July 03, 2012, 12:42:38 pm

Quote from: Leesin on July 03, 2012, 07:49:06 am

And go play a horse archer and tell me just how "easy" it is.

What? It's easy as hell to play.

And a nightmare to score any kills with, would probably score kills easier with mounted pitchforkman.  :D

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: chadz on July 03, 2012, 12:46:20 pm

For those that _still_ haven't gotten it - it's not about balancing cav vs other classes, it's about balancing cav vs cav, skill wise - giving cavalry players a similar learning curve as, for example infantry. Giving cavalry fine nuances that players can use to their advantage and shine out when compared to other, less skillful/experienced players. Giving cav techniques to use that are hard, if not impossible to master.

It's not about cav being OP or UP.

I have no doubt this will once again just be ignored anyway.

Edit: there were some very interesting ideas in this thread, though, some that we have already come up with ourselves, and some new ones as well.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: bruce on July 03, 2012, 12:53:32 pm

Good cavalrymen are already miles ahead in scoring kills then bad cavalry players, and nowdays with the "right hand stuck in retard mode" lance angles (ok, I guess I did not play much with it, it just feels too weird now), all the fun is in raping busy infantrymen anyway.

Or crossbowing, which is fun and potentially more fun with horse speed bonus counted for (and against, for those running and shooting my old friends) in the future.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: _Tak_ on July 03, 2012, 01:08:23 pm

Quote from: chadz on July 03, 2012, 12:46:20 pm

it's about balancing cav vs cav, skill wise

Bring back the old lancing angle?  Right now after the maneuver / speed nerf I will only go for infantry and avoid Cav, so do many other cavs...

Edit: I had 10 riding and still i canot control my rouncey well in a Cav fight, I notice nothing except speed buff on horse, the maneuver of riding a rouncey on riding 4 is the same as riding 10 (Champ rouncey)

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: cmp on July 03, 2012, 01:08:45 pm

Quote from: bruce on July 03, 2012, 12:53:32 pm

Good cavalrymen are already miles ahead in scoring kills then bad cavalry players

Not really, kills are a horrible metric for skill. Spawnrape/backstab-only can get a shitload of them, yet they're still mediocre players when compared to Oberyn/TomMyyY/Kerrigan/insert-good-cav-player-name-here.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Torben on July 03, 2012, 01:17:23 pm

Quote from: bruce on July 03, 2012, 12:53:32 pm

(click to show/hide)

Good cavalrymen are already miles ahead in scoring kills then bad cavalry players, and nowdays with the "right hand stuck in retard mode" lance angles (ok, I guess I did not play much with it, it just feels too weird now), all the fun is in raping busy infantrymen anyway.

Or crossbowing, which is fun and potentially more fun with horse speed bonus counted for (and against, for those running and shooting my old friends) in the future.

I disagree.  Most fun is still trying to best other cav in 1 vs many situations.


chadz!!!  Upping cav vs cav,  you are the best! 

btw:  how about giving lances a health bar like shields have,  but make them sheathable again and giving back old lancespectrum?  upping gaming experience,  need in choice making and forcing more combatvariety.

next to that, add sidestepping ofc,  and the horses free will : )

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Rebelyell on July 03, 2012, 01:22:26 pm

maybe lets make lance hard to control on hores back??
newbe will not abel to hit target proper when pro will have no problem with that.

but if you want balance cav vs cav

2h cav need buff

2h cavalery:

no shield
low weapon speed
high penalty to dmg
not really many weapons to use

Axe- Joke weapon
Two Handed Axe- joke weapon
Battle Axe- short.....
Shortened Voulge- not soo bad but
Shortened Military Scythe-that weapon is amazing because its long, and uber slowe....
Two Handed War Axe-not really
War Axe-.......
Bastard Sword-to short but almost there
Persian War Axe-nice dmg
Mace-only for pros :P
Bardiche-really good weapon and awesome when loomed
Heavy Bastard Sword- good weapon bud longsword is better
Persian Battle Axe-short slowe but really high dmg
Great Axe-awesome weapon, really strong and almost long :P
Morningstar-1 hit story
Longsword-best 2h sword for 2h cav


There is fave weapons what 2h cav can use but almost all cav 1h are longer and faster, and they are abel to use shield and they have normal dmg on horse.

I dont have problem with that but i love to see other 2h weapons useable on horse like

Dadao
Long Iron Mace
Bar Mace
Miaodao

and maybe

Two Handed Sword

that weapons will give 2h cav other kind of dmg and lenght, lets make 2h cav based on long slow weapons or short with high dmg and no shield protection

NO i don't forget about katana, to gay weapon for that list.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Vibe on July 03, 2012, 01:22:34 pm

As for cav vs cav - I dare say more effective/teamplaying cav is the one that supports or lances unaware/in-combat infantry. You're much more useful attacking and thining infantry than wasting minutes dueling another cav.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: EyeBeat on July 03, 2012, 01:31:31 pm

Quote from: chadz on July 03, 2012, 12:46:20 pm

For those that _still_ haven't gotten it - it's not about balancing cav vs other classes, it's about balancing cav vs cav, skill wise - giving cavalry players a similar learning curve as, for example infantry. Giving cavalry fine nuances that players can use to their advantage and shine out when compared to other, less skillful/experienced players. Giving cav techniques to use that are hard, if not impossible to master.

It's not about cav being OP or UP.

I have no doubt this will once again just be ignored anyway.

Edit: there were some very interesting ideas in this thread, though, some that we have already come up with ourselves, and some new ones as well.

You should make xbow cav more effective since they are so hard to master!

Seriously you should make it so that xbow cav can reload faster when going fast or going down inclines.  An automatic reload if they get hit.  Plus 40 armor to all xbow cav but not archer cav... they shoot too fast...

This makes cav more of an interesting idea for new players.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Chivers_United on July 03, 2012, 01:42:30 pm

Quote from: Torben on July 03, 2012, 01:17:23 pm

btw:  how about giving lances a health bar like shields have,  but make them sheathable again and giving back old lancespectrum?  upping gaming experience,  need in choice making and forcing more combatvariety.

one of the best ideas yet. you hit someone in full plate and wooden shaft doesn't break but you can continue on to murder rest of team, makes no sense. lances should break fairly easily and quickly, that's what they did if you couched them IRL anyway, only way to get longevity out of your lance was to stay behind your shield wall and stab over their heads.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Mustikki on July 03, 2012, 01:47:43 pm

Make couched lance break when hit against a shield.
With high wpf, it would not break with the first couch.
Same with against armored horses or tincans, but with lower chance to break.

- That would lower the use of trolololo couched lance.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: EyeBeat on July 03, 2012, 01:53:30 pm

Since xbow cav are so UP... We should make it so that if a xbow cav shoots another cav it automatically rears that horse.  Regular infantry xbows cant do this though.... only xbows used on cav.

Xbow cav needs a huge buff.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Joker86 on July 03, 2012, 02:03:49 pm

Quote from: Oberyn on July 03, 2012, 05:40:45 am

Actually, you were terrible and got owned by literally any other cav. Just because you played like a massive pussy doesn't make the class OP, no more than Agor being a bundle of sticks camper makes crossbows OP.

What do you know about me being cav? That's quite some time ago...  :?

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Ealoseum on July 03, 2012, 02:06:40 pm

To improve cav vs cav you could slower the lance hit, so it will cost some time for a newbie to get used to timing and ofc the cav pros will have an advantage.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: EyeBeat on July 03, 2012, 02:07:29 pm

Another idea to buff xbow cav is to make it so that battles last longer.

Make it so they last like 12 minutes.  And the flags spawn in the last 1:30.

That seems about right.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: _Tak_ on July 03, 2012, 02:17:28 pm

Quote from: Mustikki on July 03, 2012, 01:47:43 pm

Make couched lance break when hit against a shield.
With high wpf, it would not break with the first couch.
Same with against armored horses or tincans, but with lower chance to break.

- That would lower the use of trolololo couched lance.

What about couch into a peasant? That breaks the lance too? All weapons should break to make it more realistic , also lance breaking won't do well on Cav duel.

Quote from: Ealoseum on July 03, 2012, 02:06:40 pm

To improve cav vs cav you could slower the lance hit, so it will cost some time for a newbie to get used to timing and ofc the cav pros will have an advantage.

Heavy lance got nerf pretty bad, keep getting nerf after nerf, in the future it might become 25 pierce

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Gurnisson on July 03, 2012, 02:19:03 pm

Quote from: AlexTheDragon on July 03, 2012, 02:17:28 pm

Heavy lance got nerf pretty bad, keep getting nerf after nerf, in the future it might become 25 pierce

It got slower which made it easier to time and gave it increased speed bonus. Horrible 'nerf' right there, right? :)

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Joker86 on July 03, 2012, 02:24:25 pm

Quote from: chadz on July 03, 2012, 12:46:20 pm

For those that _still_ haven't gotten it - it's not about balancing cav vs other classes, it's about balancing cav vs cav, skill wise - giving cavalry players a similar learning curve as, for example infantry. Giving cavalry fine nuances that players can use to their advantage and shine out when compared to other, less skillful/experienced players. Giving cav techniques to use that are hard, if not impossible to master.

It's not about cav being OP or UP.

I have no doubt this will once again just be ignored anyway.

Well, you wrote in your opening post

Quote from: chadz on July 01, 2012, 02:59:28 pm

what changes could be done to increase the player skill needed to ride a horse? Right now, it's W to accelerate, S to decelerate. Therefore, it's more like a motorbike than a horse. Maybe someone who has done real riding has some insight how we could translate rider skill into a game mechanic? Riding should be difficulty in itself, just as flying a plane in a game would be. Riding needs more nuances.

which can also be summed up as "playing cav needs to be more difficult -> cav nerf". This is why people (and me included) unwittingly also referred to OP or UP.


But if you want something to increase skill: how about limiting the stab like the couch? You are able to chamber your stab only for some time, then the dot gets red and you need to wait. A quick series of blocking and chambering will be possible, but only for a few seconds, then you need to recover.

And make the "time damage curve" of the stab more extreme. Which means there is a tiny time window after chambering the stab where the damage is the highest. Everything before and after this time window lowers the damage drastically.

I don't know if thos changes can be apllied for the other classes like 1hd (same limitation) and Xbow (aiming), but you could think about it. It doesn't work for HAs, because they are limited in time with the bow mechanic anyway. Stopping the constant draw-cancel-draw-cancel behaviour would be nice, but it would actually come close to a stamina mechanic, so that I wouldn't do it.

Edit: but increase the stab angle again.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Torben on July 03, 2012, 02:30:04 pm

Quote from: Joker86 on July 03, 2012, 02:24:25 pm

(click to show/hide)

Well, you wrote in your opening post

which can also be summed up as "playing cav needs to be more difficult -> cav nerf". This is why people (and me included) unwittingly also referred to OP or UP.


But if you want something to increase skill: how about limiting the stab like the couch? You are able to chamber your stab only for some time, then the dot gets red and you need to wait. A quick series of blocking and chambering will be possible, but only for a few seconds, then you need to recover.

And make the "time damage curve" of the stab more extreme. Which means there is a tiny time window after chambering the stab where the damage is the highest. Everything before and after this time window lowers the damage drastically.

I don't know if thos changes can be apllied for the other classes like 1hd (same limitation) and Xbow (aiming), but you could think about it. It doesn't work for HAs, because they are limited in time with the bow mechanic anyway. Stopping the constant draw-cancel-draw-cancel behaviour would be nice, but it would actually come close to a stamina mechanic, so that I wouldn't do it.

Edit: but increase the stab angle again.

dont like the idea of timelimits on chambering,  it takes away a lot of combat potential,  makes everything more predictable,  linear and less skill considering dancing.  the skill needed for the timing is a lot less interessting that that of the dance.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: bruce on July 03, 2012, 02:36:51 pm

The thing which would make cav fights fun and interesting again is the old lancing angles.

Horse collisions doing damage would also be an interesting mechanic to get rid of "bumper car gameplay" where you try to block the horseman with your own horse - although 1h cavalry, or cavalry with a 1h as sidearm, would probably hate this.

Lower block "bubbles" from manual block / shield block on horseback.

That and perhaps nerfing maneuver (sorry, guys), perhaps with an increase to speed of "agile-line horses", because as it is, it is very easy to avoid other cavarlymen attacking (and in general correct errors), and the more maneuverable horse, the easier to accelerate away from a slash (especially the laughably slow 2h slashes), or get out of the very limited lance angles.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: _Tak_ on July 03, 2012, 02:39:55 pm

Quote from: bruce on July 03, 2012, 02:36:51 pm

That and perhaps nerfing maneuver (sorry, guys)

in recent patch Cmp just nerf the horse's maneuver and speed, but he just didn't mention it in the log

Quote from: cmpxchg8b on June 10, 2012, 04:30:13 pm

Found and fixed. Should also fix weird behavior with "regular" blocks.

Will be applied after a server restart later today, along with other fixes (people flying, duel offers broken...).

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: cmp on July 03, 2012, 02:45:06 pm

Quote from: AlexTheDragon on July 03, 2012, 02:39:55 pm

in recent patch Cmp just nerf the horse's maneuver and speed, but he just didn't mention it in the log

Wrong, it was brought back to the values the servers had been running for months before the move. That's not a nerf, it's a fix.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Joker86 on July 03, 2012, 02:49:36 pm

Quote from: Torben on July 03, 2012, 02:30:04 pm

dont like the idea of timelimits on chambering,  it takes away a lot of combat potential,  makes everything more predictable,  linear and less skill considering dancing.  the skill needed for the timing is a lot less interessting that that of the dance.

Why? The dancing would become more difficult, because next to positioning yourself and the enemy the right way now you also need to do it in the right time.

Another idea could be that the speed you are riding with influences damage (not only speed bonus), weapon speed and perhaps even weapon reach. Though I don't know how exactly. Should a high riding speed make the weapon faster? That way it will be more difficult to hit targets at full speed. It could have improved damage. On the other hand slow speed makes it easier to hit targets, and you are able to lean out of the saddle more so that your reach is increased. With high speed you need to hold fast in your saddle and are not able to lean to a side that much. That way you would have the "slow" horse combat which is suited more for actual fighting and duels, while the high horse speed is like some kind of low lever air attack: it's fast, well aimed, hits you hard and is gone before you know what happened. It would be the more difficult, but also the more rewarding style.

Cav duels could also be interesting, because with the higher range or slower speed you have better chances to defeat a player who rides at you at full speed. But if you miss...  :wink:

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Tydeus on July 03, 2012, 02:56:53 pm

Based somewhat on my previous post:

When couching, have the lance bob up and down and side to side, the faster you're riding, the more uncontrollable it becomes. Possibly have it slowly drag to the ground as well. Think CS 1.6 and how you would go about controlling the spray. Maybe take it a step farther, and carry this over to lance thrusting, too.

My only hesitation with this, is that it would ultimately be a gimmick in that the size of hit boxes and active areas of the lance, would render the whole thing pointless. I have no doubt that you guys could come up with some additional mechanic changes that would make this great, I'm just not sure how much effort it might take to get it working really well.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: SixThumbs on July 03, 2012, 03:08:15 pm

For cav vs cav fighting maybe you could allow weapons like the spear, war spear, double-sided lance to have the old lancing angles and for the actual lances have it so that if you lance too far out going at speed you end up dropping the lance from the extreme angle if it makes contact.

I would like to see a general increase in cavalry attack speed in general. It bothers me immensely when I ignore a point blank, non-moving, lance stab because it looks so slow but ends up dealing a worrying amount of damage.

Edit: Actually, if you give lancers the old angles I'll lose my only real advantage as 2h cav vs lance cav which is to either force a rear or slash at them moving perpendicular to them (which has actually netted me a fair amount of kills).

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: dynamike on July 03, 2012, 03:08:50 pm

Quote from: chadz on July 03, 2012, 12:46:20 pm

For those that _still_ haven't gotten it - it's not about balancing cav vs other classes, it's about balancing cav vs cav, skill wise - giving cavalry players a similar learning curve as, for example infantry. Giving cavalry fine nuances that players can use to their advantage and shine out when compared to other, less skillful/experienced players. Giving cav techniques to use that are hard, if not impossible to master.

It's not about cav being OP or UP.

I have no doubt this will once again just be ignored anyway.

Edit: there were some very interesting ideas in this thread, though, some that we have already come up with ourselves, and some new ones as well.

I don't think a cav vs cav learning curve is a problem. As with other classes there is a clear difference between an amateur cav player and his repertoire and abilities in combat against other cav and a veteran. Awareness and timing are the most critical factors, combined with horse maneuvering and acceleration/deceleration to beat other cav in a dogfight style manner. This includes a similar learning curve as other classes have. Multiply that if not playing lancer, but 1 or 2 hand cav, as it is more difficult to master.

Where cav is currently strong is against infantry, and then usually only against unaware, uncoordinated or peasant infantry. But, we still do have the high cost required to play cav as a balance argument for that and for an aware group of versatile fighters it is no problem to counter.

I appreciate what you devs are trying to do here, but I love to play cav and I'd hate to see an unnecessary or artificial mechanic like a "tap keys to move horse legs" minigame implemented.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: bruce on July 03, 2012, 03:18:21 pm

Quote from: Tydeus on July 03, 2012, 02:56:53 pm

My only hesitation with this, is that it would ultimately be a gimmick in that the size of hit boxes and active areas of the lance, would render the whole thing pointless. I have no doubt that you guys could come up with some additional mechanic changes that would make this great, I'm just not sure how much effort it might take to get it working really well.

The only way it'd work is if only the tip of the spear/lance did damage, else it's pointless, if you connect the shaft of a moving lance with someone it connects for full pierce damage. So wildly bobbing around would actually make it easier, since any part of the lance could connect and instakill you.  :D

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Casimir on July 03, 2012, 05:57:15 pm

Quote from: chadz on July 03, 2012, 12:46:20 pm

For those that _still_ haven't gotten it - it's not about balancing cav vs other classes, it's about balancing cav vs cav, skill wise - giving cavalry players a similar learning curve as, for example infantry. Giving cavalry fine nuances that players can use to their advantage and shine out when compared to other, less skillful/experienced players. Giving cav techniques to use that are hard, if not impossible to master.

It's not about cav being OP or UP.

I have no doubt this will once again just be ignored anyway.

Edit: there were some very interesting ideas in this thread, though, some that we have already come up with ourselves, and some new ones as well.

• Return lance angles to their original state. This keeps a cap on 'backstabbing' lancer cav as you get dedicated lancers hunting other cav.
• Increase horse health, decrease armour significantly for unarmoured horses and partially for armoured horses.  This gives cavalry the confidence to attack aware targets but punishes those who make mistakes and are caught ut by melee
• Rework the manoeuvre statistic by removing the link between turning ability and acceleration.   Making them separate statistics will allow a manoeuvring horse that doesn't fly like a saturn 5 rocket.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on July 03, 2012, 06:00:24 pm

i agree, acceleration should be independent from the maneuver of the horse.  And I would also agree that horsemen should require a more dedicated class.  As 18/18 build, 21/18, or 21/15, all these builds are very useful on foot as well as horse.  I'd hate to lose my fun when I'm infantry as well, but I think that would also be a welcome change.  Make people decide if they are dedicated horsemen or not.  I think the only viable footman/horseman hybrid should be people riding on saddle horses (3 riding).  Not with 5, or 6 riding.

Then you could also bring back more of a riding bonus for the riding skill.  As it stands, there's not much difference between my 6 riding on a saddle horse, and 3 riding.  I really don't notice a difference at all.  This would further help differentiate one cavalryman from the next.

The other big thing I'd like to see is weapons having static damage set to them.  But I think this is a limitation of warband.  A horse, or infantry who runs into the tip of a spear should be injured.  If I'm on foot and  run into my buddies sword, I should take some damage.  If you could do this, it would open up the possibilities to "brace" a spear or lance and deal great damage to the horse.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: _Tak_ on July 03, 2012, 06:02:28 pm

Remove ctrl+J and horse jumping = good solution, also give infantry a chance to crouch

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Torben on July 03, 2012, 06:21:49 pm

Quote from: AlexTheDragon on July 03, 2012, 06:02:28 pm

Remove ctrl+J and horse jumping = good solution, also give infantry a chance to crouch

not horse jumping : /

just add new movement features and make the over all needed/ possible (real) skill level higher.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: polkafranzi on July 03, 2012, 06:29:53 pm

Quote from: AlexTheDragon on July 03, 2012, 06:02:28 pm

Remove ctrl+J and horse jumping = good solution, also give infantry a chance to crouch

it's either one or the other, not fucking both.  Can't remove fucking cav jump and ctrl+j and then add crouch, think about it before you post.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: LordBerenger on July 03, 2012, 06:38:34 pm

No, no no no no no no. Ctrl J...meh it's good when getting chased by cav and to trick inf.


But absolutely NOT jumping. It's one of cavs few ways to possibly dodge arrows without having a high maneuever horse and also good and works sometimes when you don't want to bump your teammates so you jump over em instead (when you can't slow down).

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: bruce on July 03, 2012, 06:42:35 pm

Jumping is really really fine as it is.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on July 03, 2012, 06:55:11 pm

Yeah don't remove jumping. Would be lame to see a 1 foot high rock and not be able to clear it.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: matt2507 on July 03, 2012, 06:58:21 pm

always related to my first post (link (http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,35130.msg531353.html#msg531353)), i deepened my idea of ​​separate armors and I rebalance the stats:

(click to show/hide)

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

I made a distinction between three classes of horses:

- The speed class
- The class maneuverable
- The robust class

I also dropped all stats to maximum level of 42.
This will prevent the horses op was due of heirloom.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: LordBerenger on July 03, 2012, 07:03:33 pm

38 speed for Destrier? Oh god, i do not wanna see how you've set the Plated Chargers speed to lol....

Not to mention problem with most QQ cav nerfers (and in this case you) is that you assume everyone got loomed +3 cav.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on July 03, 2012, 07:09:59 pm

One of my biggest pet peeves is whistling over a horse and it's not +3 loomed.  You poor fucks need to stop riding horses  :mrgreen:

I'm going to start spamming this picture in every "nerf x,y,z" thread.  I added "leave c-rpg alone" to one of these pictures, but I think it's on my home pc.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


LEAVE c-rpg ALONE!

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Kafein on July 03, 2012, 07:11:33 pm

Quote from: chadz on July 03, 2012, 12:46:20 pm

For those that _still_ haven't gotten it - it's not about balancing cav vs other classes, it's about balancing cav vs cav, skill wise - giving cavalry players a similar learning curve as, for example infantry. Giving cavalry fine nuances that players can use to their advantage and shine out when compared to other, less skillful/experienced players. Giving cav techniques to use that are hard, if not impossible to master.

It's not about cav being OP or UP.

I have no doubt this will once again just be ignored anyway.

Edit: there were some very interesting ideas in this thread, though, some that we have already come up with ourselves, and some new ones as well.

Please do not disregard my posts for this reason. I think we can improve cav vs cav combat a lot through both novelty and tweaking existing features and exposed my suggestions here, but I felt I couldn't really leave that post like that and added a few countermeasures to make sure the mod stays balanced if the changes are made.

A greater lance angle would hurt 1h cav but also give back much of the fun of lancer vs lancer combat and help lancers a lot against aware inf. Collisions with stronger consequences (especially 2 horses colliding) would make riding around more difficult globally.


Also, I think this :

Quote from: Casimir on July 03, 2012, 05:57:15 pm

Rework the manoeuvre statistic by removing the link between turning ability and acceleration.   Making them separate statistics will allow a manoeuvring horse that doesn't fly like a saturn 5 rocket.[/li][/list]

is a potentially wonderful idea. Acceleration should be more related to the speed stat imo.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: matt2507 on July 03, 2012, 07:14:15 pm

Quote from: CountBerenger on July 03, 2012, 07:03:33 pm

38 speed for Destrier? Oh god, i do not wanna see how you've set the Plated Chargers speed to lol....

yes, it is a 38 speed but if you look at the specialty, you'll notice it has 42 load and has 30 armor.

Quote from: CountBerenger on July 03, 2012, 07:03:33 pm

Not to mention problem with most QQ cav nerfers (and in this case you) is that you assume everyone got loomed +3 cav.

I am a cav...

I'm just trying to find a solution to "equilibrate" the horses a little while trying to ensure that they remain fun to play.

and I do not need to take my stats as is, this is an example that might give ideas.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: polkafranzi on July 03, 2012, 07:20:33 pm

Quote from: matt2507 on July 03, 2012, 06:58:21 pm

always related to my first post (link (http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,35130.msg531353.html#msg531353)), i deepened my idea of ​​separate armors and I rebalance the stats:

(click to show/hide)

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

I made a distinction between three classes of horses:

- The speed class
- The class maneuverable
- The robust class

I also dropped all stats to maximum level of 42.
This will prevent the horses op was due of heirloom.

Sorry to tell you but you should've spent the time you needed making that table on cleaning the shit out of your eyes.

Yes, let's all ride my little pony.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: matt2507 on July 03, 2012, 07:30:30 pm

Quote from: polkafranzi on July 03, 2012, 07:20:33 pm

Sorry to tell you but you should've spent the time you needed making that table on cleaning the shit out of your eyes.

Yes, let's all ride my little pony.

before cleaning the crap in my eyes, should not be cleaning the shit in this post.

The nerf of horses is inevitable due to whinners.

So if you do not want to get stuck with a stupid stamina bar or I do not know any other kind of shit, i advise you to contribute ideas rather to unnecessarily flood this post as most people who do not like the Cavs.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Oberyn on July 03, 2012, 07:31:21 pm

Meh, the guy actually went through the trouble of giving a comprehensive idea with all cav types defined, you might not agree with his choices (I don't particularly) but it's a more concrete proposal than any that have been posted yet in the thread.
Personally I think you're trying to blend the different types of cav too gradually, it makes for easier balancing but the different sometimes wildly varying "flavors" of cav as of now is something I enjoy. For high end unarmored horses Destrier (medium cav), Arab horse (maneuv light cav), and Courser (speed light cav) each fill their role pretty well. Blending them into each other doesn't seem like a fun option.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Overdriven on July 03, 2012, 07:34:32 pm

Quote from: CrazyCracka420 on July 03, 2012, 06:00:24 pm

i agree, acceleration should be independent from the maneuver of the horse.  And I would also agree that horsemen should require a more dedicated class.  As 18/18 build, 21/18, or 21/15, all these builds are very useful on foot as well as horse.  I'd hate to lose my fun when I'm infantry as well, but I think that would also be a welcome change.  Make people decide if they are dedicated horsemen or not.  I think the only viable footman/horseman hybrid should be people riding on saddle horses (3 riding).  Not with 5, or 6 riding.

Then you could also bring back more of a riding bonus for the riding skill.  As it stands, there's not much difference between my 6 riding on a saddle horse, and 3 riding.  I really don't notice a difference at all.  This would further help differentiate one cavalryman from the next.

I like this. Acceleration, speed and manoeuvre should all be different. At the moment an Arabian is so fast because it changes speeds so quickly. A courser may have top speed, but it takes  A LOT longer to reach that speed. An Arabian is actually over all faster because any changes in terrain cause the courser to slow right down and have to start its acceleration all over again, that way Arabians can actually easily keep up with a courser, especially a champ on 7 riding. It would be great to see those stats split up.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: matt2507 on July 03, 2012, 07:40:45 pm

Quote from: Oberyn on July 03, 2012, 07:31:21 pm

Meh, the guy actually went through the trouble of giving a comprehensive idea with all cav types defined, you might not agree with his choices (I don't particularly) but it's a more concrete proposal than any that have been posted yet in the thread.
Personally I think you're trying to blend the different types of cav too gradually, it makes for easier balancing but the different sometimes wildly varying "flavors" of cav as of now is something I enjoy. For high end unarmored horses Destrier (medium cav), Arab horse (maneuv light cav), and Courser (speed light cav) each fill their role pretty well. Blending them into each other doesn't seem like a fun option.

As I said, do not specifically take my values ​​to accuracy.

This is really indicative.

I tried to do so each class have a subtlety, but I can not know by myself what exactly it gives.
Reinforce class differences might actually be a good thing.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Adrian on July 03, 2012, 08:07:17 pm

These would be suggestions to increase the amount of skill it requires to play cav specifically lancer cav. Not saying all these suggestions should be implemented together, but something needs to be changed to increase the learning curve

- any lance with a thrust attack ability no longer has Couching capabilities, the "couch only" lances will be the only ones capable of it. This or simply add a possibility for the player's lance to break after having couched someone.
Reason: this would eliminate cav players from speccing no wpf into polearm yet being able to one shot players simply by hitting X and riding into someone. Seriously Couching ridiculous.

- riding your horse into objects now damages your horse based off of how fast you were riding.
Reason: this would help with the mindless cav players simply riding full speed into walls to kill someone. Then simply riding off as if that stone wall they just rode into never phased them.

- horse speeds, specifically the courser need reduced.
Reason: yes a player's awareness often determines how often they are killed by cav to a certain extent. However, Cav in a lot of cases is too quick to counter, already Couching or slashing you in the back before you even have time to turn around or move out of the way.

- some sort of new riding system could be possible, where there would be a lot more to riding than just simply pressing w to accelerate and s to slow down.
Reason: would actually cause cav to have some sort of learning curve to help balance how deadly it is.

So as I stated these are just a few suggestions, doesnt mean that all of them implemented together would be fair to cav players, they are only suggestions. However, cav does need something implemented to help increase the playing curve, make it require a little more player side skill.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Riddaren on July 03, 2012, 08:36:23 pm

Quote from: Adrian on July 03, 2012, 08:07:17 pm

- any lance with a thrust attack ability no longer has Couching capabilities, the "couch only" lances will be the only ones capable of it.

Limiting the options/actions will not increase the gap between good and bad players. That's the case for all classes.

Instead add functionality to all classes with varying difficulty.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: polkafranzi on July 03, 2012, 09:36:03 pm

Quote from: Riddaren on July 03, 2012, 08:36:23 pm

Limiting the options/actions will not increase the gap between good and bad players. That's the case for all classes.

Instead add functionality to all classes with varying difficulty.

I agree

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Mithus on July 03, 2012, 10:14:51 pm

If the developers and players want to invent excuses to see less cavalry on maps, instead of trying to do things that will not work do simple things like:

- 90% of the maps are for cavalry designed, change the way that maps are designed.
- Increased the cost of horses

To me the arguments about cavalry be OP, is just nonsense. Of Course on a open field with chaos of hundreds of players combating they will score easily.
Just because we see more players on horses that does not mean that it has to be nerfed.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Vodner on July 03, 2012, 10:30:40 pm

The issue with cav at the moment, is that a cav player can contribute effectively to his team with less practice than with most other classes.

There is a world of difference between good, experienced cav and mediocre cav. That being said, a mediocre cav player can contribute far more to his team than he would be able to as mediocre infantry or as a mediocre archer (assuming he plays cautiously and doesn't just get himself dehorsed at the beginning of every round).

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Mithus on July 03, 2012, 11:44:02 pm

Quote from: Vodner on July 03, 2012, 10:30:40 pm

The issue with cav at the moment, is that a cav player can contribute effectively to his team with less practice than with most other classes.

There is a world of difference between good, experienced cav and mediocre cav. That being said, a mediocre cav player can contribute far more to his team than he would be able to as mediocre infantry or as a mediocre archer (assuming he plays cautiously and doesn't just get himself dehorsed at the beginning of every round).

Why do you think that stab someone in the back, coming from rear in high speed would have any type high player skill, and that is how both good and bad cav players get most of their kills in a hundred player battle. That only happens because the conditions of the map and the chaos of battle are in, and of course the weapons that counter cav most easily are 3 slots(long spear).

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: ROHYPNOL on July 03, 2012, 11:56:46 pm

in all honesty when you took away swinging to the side for cav.. taht made cav vs cav battle retarted.. now people just chase you from the back and try to gank you.. i rem taking on 1 v5+ cav because i was good at it.. now people are scared of you they will avoid you and just chase your back to try to gank you

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on July 04, 2012, 12:01:37 am

no one commented on my awesome youtube-link  :(

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Kafein on July 04, 2012, 12:31:14 am

Quote from: Mithus on July 03, 2012, 10:14:51 pm

- 90% of the maps are for cavalry designed, change the way that maps are designed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayMRS9TAQ3s&feature=related

Quote from: Vodner on July 03, 2012, 10:30:40 pm

The issue with cav at the moment, is that a cav player can contribute effectively to his team with less practice than with most other classes.

There is a world of difference between good, experienced cav and mediocre cav. That being said, a mediocre cav player can contribute far more to his team than he would be able to as mediocre infantry or as a mediocre archer (assuming he plays cautiously and doesn't just get himself dehorsed at the beginning of every round).

Well that's reasonable, but then the mediocre inf player will stay in his group and play as 2nd line support, and the mediocre archer will stick to his infantry and look around after each shot. I wonder who will do the most damage.

I've seen mediocre cav players. They die. And they look very dumb while dying.

But cav is so hermetic you don't see a lot of noobs trying it, or at least not for long enough to be acknowledged.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Dede on July 04, 2012, 12:49:51 am

The current controls with "WASD" is actually pretty good. Changing it to something different would be complicated.(At least I cant think of a better solution right now..)
But instead of changing riding from scratch, you guys could improve the current one.
As many have already mentioned this could be: acceleration/speed control,exhaustion,lance angle,etc

Forcefield:
Some Players complain about the force field with shields. (But they never question how it is possible to downblock an lancecav at full speed with a wooden stick... oh well,whatever )

Maybe this could be a solution:
2 stages of blocking with shield on horseback:
for example:
down-block= shield blocks legs
up-block=shield blocks upper body
So when the rider blocks his upper body and you hit his legs, there will be no force field etc.

---

Accelaration/Speed:
I think the accelaration/Speed and exhousting implementation of "Zelda Ocarina of time" is worth looking at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqHY9Xe6_0k&t=1m0s

just replace the carrots with horsewhip/horseshoes icons etc.:


like this...
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As you can assume riding at fullspeed all the time is not possible with this . You have to use the "speed boosts"(horsewhip/horseshoes) wisely.
When you use them too fast your horse will get exhousted and slows down (-50%speed ? ). In order to ride fast again, you have to wait for some time(when there is a free "boost" available).

---

The lance angle:
The lance angle nerf has influenced heavy cav more than light cav, since they have a bad maneuverability. I got used to it after a time, but I have still hard time to counter a good-cav-player+arabian-horse.
Changing it back would make cav duells more interesting.




PS: I have been inactive for a long time, so I dont know much about the current state of cRPG. But back then when I played, the balance system was bad. The various classes should be also taking into account when it comes to balance. Or we end up playing  Team1:   3cav   vs  Team2: 15 cav .

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Kafein on July 04, 2012, 01:40:29 am

Btw polkafranzi

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I hate you.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Piok on July 04, 2012, 09:08:20 am

Quote from: Dede on July 04, 2012, 12:49:51 am

Forcefield:
Some Players complain about the force field with shields. (But they never question how it is possible to downblock an lancecav at full speed with a wooden stick... oh well,whatever )

Maybe this could be a solution:
2 stages of blocking with shield on horseback:
for example:
down-block= shield blocks legs
up-block=shield blocks upper body
So when the rider blocks his upper body and you hit his legs, there will be no force field etc.

---

Accelaration/Speed:
I think the accelaration/Speed and exhousting implementation of "Zelda Ocarina of time" is worth looking at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqHY9Xe6_0k&t=1m0s

just replace the carrots with horsewhip/horseshoes icons etc.:


like this...
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


As you can assume riding at fullspeed all the time is not possible with this . You have to use the "speed boosts"(horsewhip/horseshoes) wisely.
When you use them too fast your horse will get exhousted and slows down (-50%speed ? ). In order to ride fast again, you have to wait for some time(when there is a free "boost" available).

---

The lance angle:
The lance angle nerf has influenced heavy cav more than light cav, since they have a bad maneuverability. I got used to it after a time, but I have still hard time to counter a good-cav-player+arabian-horse.
Changing it back would make cav duells more interesting.




PS: I have been inactive for a long time, so I dont know much about the current state of cRPG. But back then when I played, the balance system was bad. The various classes should be also taking into account when it comes to balance. Or we end up playing  Team1:   3cav   vs  Team2: 15 cav .

About force field: yes you can down block but always there is a option to poke enemy horse and with forcefield is almost impossible to hit horse. Also sometimes you can block strikes from behind so sort of angle nerf for block about 30 degrees in back will be helpful (not only for shields).
About lance angle:Small buff will be good but revert it to old days will completely screw one and two hand cav same as me and others shorter lance users. Almost every of my head on attack on heavy lance is 80% suicide. It is about skilz to outmanoeuvre other cav.
Some sort of stamina however will be good horse with full speed all the time is very unrealistic.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Vibe on July 04, 2012, 09:37:11 am

While you're at it, can you also take away the ridiculous force field of the shield on horse?

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: _Tak_ on July 04, 2012, 09:46:54 am

Quote from: Vibe on July 04, 2012, 09:37:11 am

While you're at it, can you also take away the ridiculous force field of the shield on horse?
[/quote

Also remove the force shield to infantry so that shielders can get a nerf, then the nerf will move back to archery instead of cav

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Chagan_Arslan on July 04, 2012, 10:05:54 am

Quote from: Vibe on July 04, 2012, 09:37:11 am

While you're at it, can you also take away the ridiculous force field of the shield on horse?

as inf, when you hold down block your covered from toes to head from thrust attacks, works the same on the horse back so good luck changing this ridiculous force field

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Vibe on July 04, 2012, 12:28:14 pm

Quote from: Chagan_Arslan on July 04, 2012, 10:05:54 am

as inf, when you hold down block your covered from toes to head from thrust attacks, works the same on the horse back so good luck changing this ridiculous force field

As cav, when you hold shield block you and 70% of your horse are covered because of the ridiculous force field. Could be changed if the system gets that you're on a horse, or just overall reduce the forcefield for all shields, some are pretty fucking stupid (looking at you, buckler).

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: cmp on July 04, 2012, 12:29:32 pm

Quote from: Vibe on July 04, 2012, 09:37:11 am

While you're at it, can you also take away the ridiculous force field of the shield on horse?

Yeah, already planned.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: bruce on July 04, 2012, 12:35:33 pm

As for Matt's interesting proposal:

#1: Making separate armours? Someone would have to do the models for that. However, interesting idea.
#2: The "small" horses are already harder to hit due both to size and maneuver compared to, eg. destriers and such. So a 110 HP 30 armour destrier is less survivable then a 110 hp 20 armour arabian.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Leshma on July 04, 2012, 12:38:09 pm

I'm not sure has this been suggested.

This (http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,233889.0.html) can make hoplites stronger and make playing lancer cav more challenging.

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Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Vibe on July 04, 2012, 12:53:49 pm

Quote from: Leshma on July 04, 2012, 12:38:09 pm

I'm not sure has this been suggested.

This (http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,233889.0.html) can make hoplites stronger and make playing lancer cav more challenging.

(click to show/hide)

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Nope, this has never been suggested

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Kafein on July 04, 2012, 02:47:31 pm

Quote from: Vibe on July 04, 2012, 12:53:49 pm

Nope, this has never been suggested

Totally. Never.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: matt2507 on July 04, 2012, 03:47:40 pm

Quote from: bruce on July 04, 2012, 12:35:33 pm

#1: Making separate armours? Someone would have to do the models for that. However, interesting idea.

No need for special models, if the player uses an armor, just load the complete model of the horse in place of the unarmored.
It would just make textures for the visible parts of the horse that match.

Quote from: cmpxchg8b on July 04, 2012, 12:29:32 pm

Yeah, already planned.

ah, that 's good news !

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Turkhammer on July 04, 2012, 09:56:46 pm

Quote from: Grumbs on July 01, 2012, 04:02:38 pm

I think it shouldn't feel like there is a telepathic link between rider and horse. There should be a delay before the animal responds so people have to plan their approach a bit more. They should behave a bit more like an animal, a bit more erratic and hard to control, especially when you have a weapon chambered.

You should have to consider the welfare of the horse when riding into people, and when you face plant into the ground after your horse dies you should take some damage. The horse should not behave like a real players body when it dies too, absorbing hits that should hit the rider on the ground

Have you ever ridden a horse?  A well trained horse and rider are almost connected telepathically.  Examples are quarter horses and mongol ponies which responded to riders leg pressure and weight shifts.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Gash on July 04, 2012, 10:53:40 pm

Quote from: Tot. on July 01, 2012, 03:42:29 pm

Remaking cavalry should be focused around one principle - cavalry charge is the main weapon, not zig-zagging between enemies and stabbing unaware people. More like actual horses, less helicopter gunship.

Therefore, riders should have a triggerable "charge" ability with long cooldown, which accelerates the horse, makes it a lot less manueverable but also the bump should be deadly and the horse itself way less vulnerable during it to anything except anti-cavalry weapons. So group of riders charging together means there's teeth and bones to collect if they catch spear-less infantry in open fields. Something similar to current "shield +1" etc. mechanics could be used so that horses which are charging in group don't instantly die from fatal wounds, though they do die after completing the charge. On the other hand, if cavalryman makes wrong decision and commits to a charge against pikes, he will die since he won't be able to insta-stop and ride away.

This obviously requires 1) making lone horseman way less maneuverable and durable when not charging than he is now  2) removing attacking while in air for infantry and general reduction of jump height and distance. Less monkeying, more thinking, on both sides.

Cavalry charges are done in groups, not just one rider. In order to increase the team work aspect of cavalry, perhaps the same concept which allows shielders who form a wall to gain shield bonuses can be applied to cavalry? The more horses close to each other while going full speed would then benefit from this "charge" bonus that makes them less vulnerable.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Casimir on July 04, 2012, 11:01:12 pm

Quote from: Gash on July 04, 2012, 10:53:40 pm

Cavalry charges are done in groups, not just one rider. In order to increase the team work aspect of cavalry, perhaps the same concept which allows shielders who form a wall to gain shield bonuses can be applied to cavalry? The more horses close to each other while going full speed would then benefit from this "charge" bonus that makes them less vulnerable.

Working on a system similar to shields, make it so when cavalry is in close proximity to one another they receive a large charge buff and a slight manoeuvrability nerf.  Encourages group charging etc.  Also increase couch time on GL.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Teeth on July 04, 2012, 11:25:15 pm

Quote from: Casimir on July 04, 2012, 11:01:12 pm

Working on a system similar to shields, make it so when cavalry is in close proximity to one another they receive a large charge buff and a slight manoeuvrability nerf.  Encourages group charging etc.  Also increase couch time on GL.

I hope one day, cavalry gameplay in this mod will consist of mass charges with couched great lances.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Kafein on July 04, 2012, 11:46:59 pm

Quote from: SgtTeeh on July 04, 2012, 11:25:15 pm

I hope one day, cavalry gameplay in this mod will consist of mass charges with couched great lances.

That would be awesome but first we would need medieval battlefields, not retarded FPS maps.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Leshma on July 05, 2012, 12:10:13 am

Quote from: SgtTeeh on July 04, 2012, 11:25:15 pm

I hope one day, cavalry gameplay in this mod will consist of mass charges with couched great lances.

Sounds cool and it's actually realistic but I wouldn't go that far. Will make cavalry extremely boring.

It's like playing different version of Star Trek online, where every player has his role on ship and you're the one pressing teleport button all the time. Sounds like fun, eh?

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Frell on July 05, 2012, 01:48:03 am

Quote from: Leshma on July 05, 2012, 12:10:13 am

Sounds cool and it's actually realistic but I wouldn't go that far. Will make cavalry extremely boring.

It's like playing different version of Star Trek online, where every player has his role on ship and you're the one pressing teleport button all the time. Sounds like fun, eh?

ROLE PLAYING GAME

:P

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Vicious666 on July 05, 2012, 01:51:35 am

more inertia chadz

less control of a horse at full speed

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Torben on July 05, 2012, 01:53:51 am

the thread is about upping cav vs cav skill requirement,  vicious

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: cmp on July 05, 2012, 01:55:39 am

Cav, not cav vs cav.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Torben on July 05, 2012, 01:59:48 am

damit,  misread this

Quote from: chadz on July 03, 2012, 12:46:20 pm

it's about balancing cav vs cav, skill wise

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Casimir on July 05, 2012, 02:04:09 am

perm ban inc.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Torben on July 05, 2012, 02:06:26 am

Quote from: Casimir on July 05, 2012, 02:04:09 am

perm ban inc.

-.-  seriously misread it.  aint about cav vs cav combat,  but about skill distinguishing the effectiveness of cav more.  now I want a cookie.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Rheinhardt on July 05, 2012, 09:19:30 am

Massive post incoming. Ten points. Not all are strictly cav v cav, but when poking a stick at a spider web, there's always a wide range of changes.

Maximum lance angle for a stab should be dependant on lance length. Longer lances should be restrained to the forward arc. Shorter lances should allow stabs to the side, at least the left side. A very short lance like the light lance could even allow a stab to the left rear quarter. This will result in lancers having to decide if they want a long reach but narrow engagement area, or a short reach but wide engagement area. Short lances would be effective in horse-to-horse melee.

The great lance should be one slot. Why is it -not- one slot? You only ever have it in your right hand. When it is not in your right hand it is discarded on the ground. You likely didn't even carry it to the fight yourself, your squire lashed them to a pack mule. This would let a greatlance/1h/large shield knight proper start playing. Before you freak out, remember lance breaking could come into effect.

The idea of lances breaking after so many couches is an appealing balance consideration for when lancers begin to thoroughly dominate through the use of couched lances. Right now most lancers I see use the heavy lance and stab it. Couching proper is rare. However, should lances start taking damage like shields do, we need to consider the circumstances. Lances are polearms. Most 'lancers' use their lances in thrusts rather than couches. Nothing would prevent these from switching to warspears or otherwise to avoid damage to lances caused by non-couched attacks.

Couching doesn't really need a nerf, which lance breaking certainly would be. If unsheathable and couchable lances became one slot items, perhaps they would. But right now one can only couch when charging straight at a target with terrain favorable (and no pikes around), so breakable lances might nerf couching into the ground. Lowering the 'speed limit' for couching would help.

Arrows need to do a flat 50% less damage to horses, or the hitboxes need to be adjusted, or horses in general need far more armor. Lets face facts; most of a horse's head is sinuses. Only the area behind the eyes is the braincase. An arrow has to go through two or three times as much meat and bone to reach an organ in the thorax. The entire back of the neck is a muscle. The flanks could be riddled with arrows before the animal dies of bleeding to death. Honestly, you should not have a reasonable chance to kill these animals outright without the sort of force that would completely impale an armored man, and even then, only to a weak point. The practical result of some increase to a horse's durability would be more focus on killing the man in cav v cav, which is currently more like man versus horse and then see if you can finish the rider off conveniently. It will also make melee horsemen viable starting with a horse like the destrier.

Although this is nominally cav v cav, cav v inf is an interwoven theme with every change you make; nothing happens in a vaccuum. So while I'm on the subject, hitting E while my horse is moving slowly should give a rearing animation and two big blunt-damage knockdown kicks in front of my horse equal to the charge value.

One change needs to be made regarding horses; a horse that dies needs a quarter or half second of 'momentum' time before it falls over and the rider dehorsed. This means a thousand pounds of horseflesh, killed with a non-staggering blow, just before hurtling into a mass of men will behave like a thousand pounds of horseflesh crushing puny infantrymen, rather than cotton candy. This would put more emphasis on staggering horses when you kill them, as it would prevent the bump-damage steamroller. Outright killed horses with a stagger would rear up before collapsing. This has a particular effect on cav-versus-cav lancing.

A couched charge into a cloth archer shouldn't damage the lance. A couched charge into a peasant's old heater shield shouldn't damage the lance. Basically, a couch should have to be successfully blocked for the lance to be damaged; high level shields, great shield skill, weak charge. If the shield breaks, the lance only takes partial damage. If the shield survives, the lances takes full damage. How much abuse a lance takes should depend on its length/weight. Heavy long lances should be able to take more punishment than light long lances, and light short lances should be more durable than their longer counterparts.

When couching with a shield, the shield should be blocking. Then we would finally have proper cav-on-cav head-on jousts! The challenge would become hitting the enemy player directly or his shield and shattering through while he does the same. If he aims for the horse instead, the horse will continue for a half second as the previous point suggests, and the lancer while dehorsed in a moment can still kill the enemy player. This will encourage aiming for the man rather than the horse in head-on lancings. Furthermore, right now archers can line up shots on a charging lancer and hit them, foiling the couch. With the shield properly blocking, arrows will have a much harder time finding their mark. This weakens Xbow cav, who use this to defeat a charging lancer with a cheap staggering shot. This also makes archers more dependant on pikemen to defend them, since they can no longer rely on their own ability to kill the horse or stagger the rider just before the impact.

And lastly, as some other mods have, damage to the horse should reduce its speed. Starting at 50% or 66% damage, the horse needs to start running slower and slower until a near-death horse is barely able to outpace a man. This will make horsemen less effective the longer they stay in combat, reducing the rounds that end up with a near-death horse bearing around a xbowman at full trolling speed. It also counter-balances all the various 'buffs' that go into cavalry players, and makes cav-on-cav pursuit much more interesting. A good first hit might make the enemy courser slower than your destrier, while his first hit might not damage your tougher horse enough to slow it.

To summarize.

1. Tie lance stab angle to length of lance; longer lance, narrower angle.
2. The unsheathable, couch-only lance should be one slot.
3. Couching damaging lances must be created with other changes or else it is a flat nerf that will drive people away from the class.
4. Lower the speed limit for couching.
5. Increase horse armor, total hitpoints, adjust hit boxes; just make them tougher to kill than their riders!
6. E should rear the horse and send two big knockdown kicks in front of the animal with some blunt damage to boot.
7. Horses should not die immediately, rather persist for 1/4-1/2 of a second before dying.
8. Only a successfully blocked couch should damage the lance; a broken shield damaging less than an intact shield.
9. Couching should activate a shield's full block potential.
10. As a horse takes damage, it should slow, starting at 50%-66% health on down.

Points 1, 5, and 7 increase a horseman's close quarters capability against cav and infantry.
Points 2, 5, 7, 8 and 9 combined will result in head-to-head jousting between two couchers who actually aim for the enemy shield.
Points 1, 5, 6, 7 and 9 increase the horseman's melee staying power, as opposed to hit-and-run fighting.
Point 10 provides a needed counter-balance to cavalry.

I think that combined this would be a big change for cavalry and make them more complicated to fight as, with more options than the straight lancer we currently see wheeling about. Real knights that charge a horse into the infantry's main body directly, couch, take an arrow to the shield, run a 2hander through with their great lance, drop the lance, draw their sword and start hacking and kicking the horse until the beast is slain or the knight falls. Meanwhile light cavalry lancers could intercept these heavy knights and plague them with light lance or double-sided lance stabs at angles the heavy knight can't react to. Much more durable horses means archers will need to stick to the pikemen and pikemen will need shieldmen to finish off unhorsed knights. And horses slowing as they damage serves as the big balancing nerf; horses wounded in battle become less effective, meaning all cav, but horse archers and xbow archers in particular, become less dangerous the longer they're in battle.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on July 05, 2012, 02:39:24 pm

First of all there gotta be some way to make horses louder, make horses spam some voice command constantly? Then leave an option in some QM setting so people without sound turned on can get a chat message saying "Cavalry within 20 meter radius" but not saying whether it's teammates, or how many, or exactly how close... if horses are made louder like this hopefully it'll get inf retards to actual look behind them once in a while.
Now, bump damage just needs to be fucking nerfed, there is nothing that saddens me more ingame than playing lancer on my main with 0 wpf, missing with the lance, and then killing anyway with a bump, given, I'm on an arabian which ain't got half the bump damage of the destrier so my targets must've been nearly dead, but still. Allowing bumps to do so much damage that it compensates for hitting with the lance is fucking stupid. Now, give lancercav their old lance angle back, or at least a wider one than right now, if possible, make the lance randomly bump around while you have it chambered/couched, bumping more violently the faster you're going, you'd still be able to move it back in position instantly, but this'd make it require slightly more awareness and aim to than atm, also, if possible, add a chance of dropping a lance when it's chambered for more than 1 second, so people will chamber then release instantly, and a chance of falling off the horse if you lance but don't hit anything (a teammate, an enemy, a block, a shield, etc), to make missing hurt the rider more.
Give HAs and HXs (AND HTs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) speed bonus, so that riding more foward and charging will be better for them in any way than running away from their enemies.

Now, remove blocking from all lances (can still block with a shield), and make heavy+great lance 3slot, remove shield forcefield, make horses faster and more maneuverable so riding requires greater reflexes, and make riders take heavy falling damage.

One final thing that'd add to playing cav would be a button that puts you in "charge" mode, bumping barely slows you down here, and any hit that should've reared your horse insta kills it, and if you die your horse sprints as fast as it can forward, this would actually make mass cav charges work, one dead guy or a reared guy wouldn't stop the entire charge.
BITCHES I'M UNMUTED!

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: _Tak_ on July 05, 2012, 02:44:58 pm

Quote from: Zlisch_The_Butcher on July 05, 2012, 02:39:24 pm

Give HAs and HXs (AND HTs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) speed bonus

+1, lancers + 1 handed cav are too OP at the moment compare to them, HA, HX, HT needs a buff to become anti Cav

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Torben on July 05, 2012, 07:41:38 pm

Quote from: AlexTheDragon on July 05, 2012, 02:44:58 pm

+1, lancers + 1 handed cav are too OP at the moment compare to them, HA, HX, HT needs a buff to become anti Cav

dont get it, lot of HAs need 2-3 shots to down my horse.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Casimir on July 05, 2012, 09:20:56 pm

buff 2h cav!

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Penitent on July 05, 2012, 09:26:12 pm

I think its good having some control issues with the horse.  Well trained horses will kind of know where to go sometimes.  They can be steered with the legs, and if they know the rider it can be very intuitive to control one.

Adding momentum (when turning, accelerating, decelerating) would be cool.
Adding more of a trample factor would be cool.
At the same time, horses that are very injured or distressed may become unresponsive to commands, so that would be cool too.

Maybe give horses 4 or 5 speeds.  Walk, trot, canter, gallop...for example.  Currently in CRPG a rider has VERY fine control over how fast the horse can go.  Maybe that should be dulled a bit.
A horse that was just shot in the ass may gallop out of control for a few secs before you can slow it down.  If it is a trained war horse, maybe not.

There are a lot of interesting things you can do!

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: _Tak_ on July 05, 2012, 09:35:14 pm

I am really glad they buff the heavy horses, it seems many of the heavy horse's armors got buff, especially the plated charger, so it doesn't die in 1 hit anymore, good job

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Banok on July 05, 2012, 09:48:17 pm

just make it work like QWOP

http://www.foddy.net/Athletics.html

joke really I think it should be abit like zelda where you can kick horse to tell it to accelerate. ie you don't have direct control of its speed, and if you kick too much it will rear. if you try to stop too suddenly it will rear, and when it rears or crashes into horses/buildings it could throw you off.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Joker86 on July 05, 2012, 09:52:25 pm

Btw it would be very nice to have regular answers of the developers to let the community know if they already got the idea they were looking for or if the community should keep it coming.  :wink:

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Penitent on July 05, 2012, 09:53:17 pm

Reinhardt has some cool ideas.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Bryggan on July 05, 2012, 11:51:12 pm

Yeah, Reinhardt does have some good ideas, I like pretty much all of them.  But he doesn't mention anything about the actual riding.

I think it may have been mentioned before, but the idea of using the A & D keys as spurs, or probably knees as these are supposedly well trained horses.  So tapping A and D together will make the horse run straight forward, but hitting D more often than A will cause a left veer.  To slow down its the same thing, but hit S as well.  So if you're at full speed and you want to turn right, you'd hit S and D together.  So it would be less like a motorbike and more like a tank (with its two treads functioning independently).

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: EyeBeat on July 05, 2012, 11:56:44 pm

This is what I think about cav right now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1A7gBS3QiqA&feature=youtu.be

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: spl00gedon on July 06, 2012, 12:00:13 am

Quote from: EyeBeat on July 05, 2012, 11:56:44 pm

This is what I think about cav right now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1A7gBS3QiqA&feature=youtu.be

I'm hungry

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Teeth on July 06, 2012, 12:18:00 am

Quote from: EyeBeat on July 05, 2012, 11:56:44 pm

This is what I think about cav right now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1A7gBS3QiqA&feature=youtu.be

Never again.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on July 06, 2012, 12:37:29 am

Quote from: EyeBeat on July 05, 2012, 11:56:44 pm

This is what I think about cav right now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1A7gBS3QiqA&feature=youtu.be

Read the title, closed window.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: ManOfWar on July 06, 2012, 12:50:16 am

Make it so my guy does not have a seizure every time a horse touches him

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Dexxtaa on July 06, 2012, 03:05:16 am

Quote from: ManOfWar on July 06, 2012, 12:50:16 am

Make it so my guy does not have a seizure every time a horse touches him

You have a seizure every time you see a horse, let alone be attacked by one.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: EyeBeat on July 06, 2012, 03:12:10 am

They should make it so that Xbow cav has more of a chance to go through shields.  Also when xbow cav horse bump people they get double the damage if they shoot them while they are on the ground.

Also cut upkeep in half for all xbow cav.

Develop a mobile ballista that attaches to all xbow cav to give them a double shot in case they miss with the first one.

Try to make it so there are even less counters to xbow cav.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on July 06, 2012, 03:21:46 am

Quote from: EyeBeat on July 06, 2012, 03:12:10 am

They should make it so that Xbow cav has more of a chance to go through shields.  Also when xbow cav horse bump people they get double the damage if they shoot them while they are on the ground.

Also cut upkeep in half for all xbow cav.

Develop a mobile ballista that attaches to all xbow cav to give them a double shot in case they miss with the first one.

Try to make it so there are even less counters to xbow cav.

Bitch more, bitch.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Kafein on July 06, 2012, 03:29:03 am

Quote from: EyeBeat on July 05, 2012, 11:56:44 pm

This is what I think about cav right now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1A7gBS3QiqA&feature=youtu.be

Worse reaction than that of 2girls1cup

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Rheinhardt on July 06, 2012, 05:42:36 am

Yeah, I didn't go into changes to riding itself. Perhaps E could be the 'gallop' button over a certain speed threshold or the 'kick faces' button under a lower threshold, with a dead zone to prevent getting the wrong effect. Something like 150% speed, 75% maneuverability, and trampling and bump damage to make all the little squishy cloth-wearers explode in gore. That would be a useful tool in horse-versus-horse chases and duels.

I really don't want to change the steering mechanic. It seems like artificial difficulty to make it more complicated to make maneuvers on the horse or have your horse disobey orders, etc. A horse is intelligent enough to do most of its pathfinding decisions itself. Try riding a horse into a tree.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Largg on July 06, 2012, 06:43:51 am

Adding whistling for only horse you spawn with would be a nice addition too. It is almost comical how downed cav players running away whistling. Quite often they get a free horse wayy to easy and continue the reckless playstyle. Having it harder to find a new horse could make cav players have more mind playing.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Rheinhardt on July 06, 2012, 07:17:17 am

Sure, when I get an NPC squire back at spawn who holds my extra horse and lance.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Paniolo808 on July 06, 2012, 09:09:23 am

I own six horses irl and I have been riding for twenty years. I've competed on horseback, I've made a living on horseback. All suggestions that horses should be more sluggish or response have obviously never ridden a tuned horse.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvuSvwb8DPg&feature=fvwrel Fuck the music, mute it and watch. That's how agile a horse can be. The horse is motherfucking side stepping. I'd like to see that shit. Diagonal movement.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvuSvwb8DPg&feature=fvwrel No hands. Sudden stops can be done on horseback, more or less.

Personally, I think the idea that a slight slope is going to radically slow down a horse is also ridiculous. Just my couple cents.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Torben on July 06, 2012, 09:13:27 am

Quote from: Paniolo808 on July 06, 2012, 09:09:23 am

(click to show/hide)

I own six horses irl and I have been riding for twenty years. I've competed on horseback, I've made a living on horseback. All suggestions that horses should be more sluggish or response have obviously never ridden a tuned horse.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvuSvwb8DPg&feature=fvwrel Fuck the music, mute it and watch. That's how agile a horse can be. The horse is motherfucking side stepping. I'd like to see that shit. Diagonal movement.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvuSvwb8DPg&feature=fvwrel No hands. Sudden stops can be done on horseback, more or less.

Personally, I think the idea that a slight slope is going to radically slow down a horse is also ridiculous. Just my couple cents.

Holy fucking crap! I knew they are agile,  but fucks sake.  sidestepping like a crab and doin faints like an american football player.  yeeehaaaw,  I want that!
thanks for the awesome videos.

How do you think,  the skill requirement for cav could be upped?

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Visconti on July 06, 2012, 10:35:37 am

Quote from: Paniolo808 on July 06, 2012, 09:09:23 am

I own six horses irl and I have been riding for twenty years. I've competed on horseback, I've made a living on horseback. All suggestions that horses should be more sluggish or response have obviously never ridden a tuned horse.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvuSvwb8DPg&feature=fvwrel Fuck the music, mute it and watch. That's how agile a horse can be. The horse is motherfucking side stepping. I'd like to see that shit. Diagonal movement.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvuSvwb8DPg&feature=fvwrel No hands. Sudden stops can be done on horseback, more or less.

Personally, I think the idea that a slight slope is going to radically slow down a horse is also ridiculous. Just my couple cents.

Really cool video, but i doubt the behemoth war horses that knights rode into battle would be that agile. Especially if they are covered in metal armor.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Teeth on July 06, 2012, 10:53:18 am

Quote from: Paniolo808 on July 06, 2012, 09:09:23 am

(click to show/hide)

I own six horses irl and I have been riding for twenty years. I've competed on horseback, I've made a living on horseback. All suggestions that horses should be more sluggish or response have obviously never ridden a tuned horse.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvuSvwb8DPg&feature=fvwrel Fuck the music, mute it and watch. That's how agile a horse can be. The horse is motherfucking side stepping. I'd like to see that shit. Diagonal movement.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvuSvwb8DPg&feature=fvwrel No hands. Sudden stops can be done on horseback, more or less.

Personally, I think the idea that a slight slope is going to radically slow down a horse is also ridiculous. Just my couple cents.

Now I want to see him try that against an uninjured, non drugged bull. Fuck that is such a despicable tradition.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Idzo on July 06, 2012, 11:04:54 am

Quote from: Paniolo808 on July 06, 2012, 09:09:23 am

I own six horses irl and I have been riding for twenty years. I've competed on horseback, I've made a living on horseback. All suggestions that horses should be more sluggish or response have obviously never ridden a tuned horse.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvuSvwb8DPg&feature=fvwrel Fuck the music, mute it and watch. That's how agile a horse can be. The horse is motherfucking side stepping. I'd like to see that shit. Diagonal movement.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvuSvwb8DPg&feature=fvwrel No hands. Sudden stops can be done on horseback, more or less.

Personally, I think the idea that a slight slope is going to radically slow down a horse is also ridiculous. Just my couple cents.

They do better side step then Usher.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Kansuke on July 06, 2012, 11:06:57 am

Quote from: SgtTeeh on July 06, 2012, 10:53:18 am

Now I want to see him try that against an uninjured, non drugged bull. Fuck that is such a despicable tradition.

Bulls in corrida aren't drugged nor injured till the very end, and only in spain they pike it and kill it at the end, in france and portugal they live after it and they don't suffer from the banderas on their back because they are planted into the fat of it.

Bulls can't reach the same speed as horses because the arena is circular and they don't have the same agility as a horse. But in a sraight line bulls are much faster than horse on a short period of time (that's why corrida arena are round).

Everything you see on TV isn't true you know ?

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Phazey on July 06, 2012, 11:54:32 am

How to improve difficulty on horses? Make it more skill-based.

1) Remove charge damage altogether. Just bumping someone to death simply isn't a fun game mechanic. It also doesn't require much skill at all (no timing needed + unblockable)

2) Nerf knockdown a bit. Make it shorter and less reliable. Allow people who jump aside to get up faster, but let people who just stand there still be knocked down long like they are now.

That should probably increase the difficulty somewhat and is enough if you ask me.

If you need to do more nerfing, consider adding stuff like the rider falling off the horse when you collide or get stopped. But keep in mind that long stuns aren't  a good game mechanic, because they aren't fun.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Ealoseum on July 06, 2012, 12:10:42 pm

Quote from: Paniolo808 on July 06, 2012, 09:09:23 am

I own six horses irl and I have been riding for twenty years. I've competed on horseback, I've made a living on horseback. All suggestions that horses should be more sluggish or response have obviously never ridden a tuned horse.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvuSvwb8DPg&feature=fvwrel Fuck the music, mute it and watch. That's how agile a horse can be. The horse is motherfucking side stepping. I'd like to see that shit. Diagonal movement.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvuSvwb8DPg&feature=fvwrel No hands. Sudden stops can be done on horseback, more or less.

Personally, I think the idea that a slight slope is going to radically slow down a horse is also ridiculous. Just my couple cents.

First horse is going to be the best soccer player of all times. With her epic skill moves:D

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Rheinhardt on July 06, 2012, 12:13:09 pm

Quote from: Visconti on July 06, 2012, 10:35:37 am

Really cool video, but i doubt the behemoth war horses that knights rode into battle would be that agile. Especially if they are covered in metal armor.

Unfortunately this is a big fat nope. While I agree armor is going to slow down a horse, its a myth that war horses were huge ancestors to Clydsdales. That Palimino looks about right for a lighter horse. Destriers were a little heavier, but although a lost breed they were bred to be fast and agile as well as strong. Fast and agile enough, in fact, that when destriers ridden by crusaders first encountered Turkish horse archers mounted on much lighter and bred for speed horses, they were able to run them down. Reason? Knights rode stallions; ungelded hot-blooded male horses. Turks rode the faster and lighter mares; female horses. Given some twenty percent of the Turkish horses were in heat and sweating pheromones and the stallions were ordered to charge ten thousand exotic oriental mares who collectively smelled like a harem and kept turning tail...

History is so funny sometimes.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Kafein on July 06, 2012, 12:48:07 pm

Quote from: Paniolo808 on July 06, 2012, 09:09:23 am

I own six horses irl and I have been riding for twenty years. I've competed on horseback, I've made a living on horseback. All suggestions that horses should be more sluggish or response have obviously never ridden a tuned horse.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvuSvwb8DPg&feature=fvwrel Fuck the music, mute it and watch. That's how agile a horse can be. The horse is motherfucking side stepping. I'd like to see that shit. Diagonal movement.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvuSvwb8DPg&feature=fvwrel No hands. Sudden stops can be done on horseback, more or less.

Personally, I think the idea that a slight slope is going to radically slow down a horse is also ridiculous. Just my couple cents.

Hopefully horse movement will be much more complete in m&b 2

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on July 06, 2012, 12:55:09 pm

Quote from: Largg on July 06, 2012, 06:43:51 am

Adding whistling for only horse you spawn with would be a nice addition too. It is almost comical how downed cav players running away whistling. Quite often they get a free horse wayy to easy and continue the reckless playstyle. Having it harder to find a new horse could make cav players have more mind playing.

You are aware due to next to no cav clashes and the few clashes that there are only aiming for the horse and all inf ragekilling every horse that comes near them after they've killed the rider finding a horse isn't always that easy, right?

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: _Tak_ on July 06, 2012, 12:57:09 pm

Make the rider dies when get dehorse, just like in medieval total war

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Kafein on July 06, 2012, 01:00:32 pm

Quote from: AlexTheDragon on July 06, 2012, 12:57:09 pm

Make the rider dies when get dehorse, just like in medieval total war

In M:TW cav is effective against archers. Your point is invalid.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on July 06, 2012, 01:04:49 pm

Quote from: AlexTheDragon on July 06, 2012, 12:57:09 pm

Make the rider dies when get dehorse, just like in medieval total war

Not die, it'd make aiming at the horse even stronger than it is now, just make rider lose health depending on speed bonus of the killing hit.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: _Tak_ on July 06, 2012, 01:13:34 pm

Quote from: Kafein on July 06, 2012, 01:00:32 pm

In M:TW cav is effective against archers. Your point is invalid.

Quote from: Zlisch_The_Butcher on July 06, 2012, 01:04:49 pm

Not die, it'd make aiming at the horse even stronger than it is now, just make rider lose health depending on speed bonus of the killing hit.

It was a joke, it will be the final stage of nerfing Cav, where all Cav will rage respec back to infantry

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Rheinhardt on July 06, 2012, 01:54:25 pm

See, nobody could tell it was a joke. You gotta do it like this.

Horses should randomly fall over crippled from stepping in varmit holes and shattering a leg.
Wounded horses should force a repair proc at the end of the round and require a month to recover.
Dead horses should be removed entirely from your inventory or replaced with dried meat.
Horses charging the enemy should randomly panic and run away, resisting commands for several seconds.
You should randomly fall off your horse based on your riding skill. Riding 10 will be required to avoid ever falling.
Horses hit on one side of the body should start pulling in that direction.
You should have to pay a daily maintenance fee for food and water for the horse.
Horses that run head-on into pikes should be impaled on the pike, rendering it useless.
As a horse gallops, your aim point for ranged attacks should fluctuate to simulate the uneven ride.

Actually I like that last one.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on July 06, 2012, 03:44:02 pm

Quote from: Paniolo808 on July 06, 2012, 09:09:23 am

I own six horses irl and I have been riding for twenty years. I've competed on horseback, I've made a living on horseback. All suggestions that horses should be more sluggish or response have obviously never ridden a tuned horse.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvuSvwb8DPg&feature=fvwrel Fuck the music, mute it and watch. That's how agile a horse can be. The horse is motherfucking side stepping. I'd like to see that shit. Diagonal movement.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvuSvwb8DPg&feature=fvwrel No hands. Sudden stops can be done on horseback, more or less.

Personally, I think the idea that a slight slope is going to radically slow down a horse is also ridiculous. Just my couple cents.

That's awesome, my favorite has to be at 1 minute when the horse is juking back and forth like an American football running back.

And to people saying "that's not possible" for warhorses that are much larger and wearing armor, just a couple things:  not all horses in c-rpg have armor.  And horses were much smaller in the middle ages than they are now.

Also it's not like these horses and knights weren't training their entire lives...(not saying they trained together, but they both were very highly trained for a specific role).

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Paniolo808 on July 07, 2012, 06:24:23 am

Quote from: Phazey on July 06, 2012, 11:54:32 am

How to improve difficulty on horses? Make it more skill-based.

1) Remove charge damage altogether. Just bumping someone to death simply isn't a fun game mechanic. It also doesn't require much skill at all (no timing needed + unblockable)

I'm sorry, but I've been trampled by a horse. It freaking hurts, and I'm not talking about a horse stepping on my foot. I'm talking about being knocked down by a stallion and then getting my slow self trampled. It's a thousand plus lbs animal, something that heavy running into you around 20 to 30 mph is gonna hurt.
And I think your wording is dishonest, because it is fun to bump people to death, really fun. I think you're refering to being bumped to death.

Quote from: Phazey on July 06, 2012, 11:54:32 am

2) Nerf knockdown a bit. Make it shorter and less reliable. Allow people who jump aside to get up faster, but let people who just stand there still be knocked down long like they are now.

Again, thousand plus lbs animal. It's more than likely gonna knock you down. In my opinion I think they ought to INCREASE knock-down, at least when at speed. Also, being airborne shouldn't make you more resistant, it should make you less. When you're on the ground, you have balance. When you're airborne, you're at the mercy of momentum. And the momentum of a speeding horse is going to radically alter your trajectory and make landing on all two feet more difficult. This suggestion is silly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=NAMVmcwDXMo#t=98s Alright. This is a fantastic video that should demonstrate that hills don't affect horses like they do in Mount & Blade. Keep watching for an epic cliff descent. This is all real footage. This video also demonstrates that 'rider should die when horse dies is nonsense'. See that horse rolling over the rider? Yep, I've had that happen to me too, granted on flat ground but similar speed. Scraped some skin off my elbow as the horse went down and over me but was otherwise was uninjured.

Alot of these suggestions I'm seeing seem to be coming from infantry types. Also from people with no equestrian background. To be honest, I find the horses in CRPG to already be clumsy and sluggish. And frustrating.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=fvwrel&NR=1&v=XZ8d9ByD5L4 I think this is an ultimate demonstration of equine ability. Horses have a pretty damn decent from nothing to ZOOM speed burst. The reason I use a steppe or desert horse as much is because I think the manueverability on the other horses is absurdly sluggish. It even demonstrates some lancing. Bear in mind that these horses that I'm posting descend from old style warhorses. In war, you didn't use the same broke down nag you'd put your five year old on while on vacation. You used an animal trained throughout it's life for battle. You know one thing lacking in CRPG/Warband? Horse's kicking, striking, and biting the enemy. Warhorses were trained to do that. Not gonna happen, but think about how lacking horses already are before considering nerfing.

In my opinion?  Cav doesn't need nerfing.
Again, this coming from someone who actually rides horses irl.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Dexxtaa on July 07, 2012, 07:26:50 am

Nerf archers.

How I feel when I'm chasing one around a tree.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Torben on July 07, 2012, 07:45:26 am

Quote from: Paniolo808 on July 07, 2012, 06:24:23 am

(click to show/hide)

I'm sorry, but I've been trampled by a horse. It freaking hurts, and I'm not talking about a horse stepping on my foot. I'm talking about being knocked down by a stallion and then getting my slow self trampled. It's a thousand plus lbs animal, something that heavy running into you around 20 to 30 mph is gonna hurt.
And I think your wording is dishonest, because it is fun to bump people to death, really fun. I think you're refering to being bumped to death.

Again, thousand plus lbs animal. It's more than likely gonna knock you down. In my opinion I think they ought to INCREASE knock-down, at least when at speed. Also, being airborne shouldn't make you more resistant, it should make you less. When you're on the ground, you have balance. When you're airborne, you're at the mercy of momentum. And the momentum of a speeding horse is going to radically alter your trajectory and make landing on all two feet more difficult. This suggestion is silly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=NAMVmcwDXMo#t=98s Alright. This is a fantastic video that should demonstrate that hills don't affect horses like they do in Mount & Blade. Keep watching for an epic cliff descent. This is all real footage. This video also demonstrates that 'rider should die when horse dies is nonsense'. See that horse rolling over the rider? Yep, I've had that happen to me too, granted on flat ground but similar speed. Scraped some skin off my elbow as the horse went down and over me but was otherwise was uninjured.

Alot of these suggestions I'm seeing seem to be coming from infantry types. Also from people with no equestrian background. To be honest, I find the horses in CRPG to already be clumsy and sluggish. And frustrating.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=fvwrel&NR=1&v=XZ8d9ByD5L4 I think this is an ultimate demonstration of equine ability. Horses have a pretty damn decent from nothing to ZOOM speed burst. The reason I use a steppe or desert horse as much is because I think the manueverability on the other horses is absurdly sluggish. It even demonstrates some lancing. Bear in mind that these horses that I'm posting descend from old style warhorses. In war, you didn't use the same broke down nag you'd put your five year old on while on vacation. You used an animal trained throughout it's life for battle. You know one thing lacking in CRPG/Warband? Horse's kicking, striking, and biting the enemy. Warhorses were trained to do that. Not gonna happen, but think about how lacking horses already are before considering nerfing.

In my opinion?

  Cav doesn't need nerfing...

Although I cherish your video input a lot (never new horses could descend like that, woha!)  you are missing the point.

-this is not a nerf thread,  au contrair:  it is a thread which is seeking for answers in how to making horseriding more skillbased.  All in all that will result in a buff for dedicated riders,
and only a nerf concerning the easy part of being a cav.
 and this is the part where you should chip in as an experienced rider!

that a horse trampeling you will hurt and knock you down is out of question.  phase just wants to balance the game.  after all,  we have to keep it fun for everyone. 
and I am not on your line:  I have been cav for ever,  and I detest killing people by bumping them,  it literally pisses me off to get a kill like that. 

my take on this is unchanged:  I`d love to see the actual horseriding changed,  by taking its linear directions,  but instead adding the sidestepping and movement capabilities beyond what is possible atm.  in return take away combat capabilities at high speeds (not taking the high speeds tho!):  just like you cant couch a lance at low speeds,  it should not be possible to attack  at full gallop.  (resulting in a heavy cav buff,  decreasing ninja cav that kills before its prey even knows about it)

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Thoric on July 07, 2012, 07:48:49 am

Deployable caltrops.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: BlueKnight on July 07, 2012, 09:36:02 am

Quote from: Torben on July 06, 2012, 09:13:27 am

Holy fucking crap! I knew they are agile,  but fucks sake.  sidestepping like a crab and doin faints like an american football player.  yeeehaaaw,  I want that!
thanks for the awesome videos.

How do you think,  the skill requirement for cav could be upped?

Give cav more tricks so it will he harder to master them all. It will force cav to use more especially in 1 vs 1. Inf has a lot of tricks with feints, chambers, kicking, holding. They can also evoke the sound of release while releasing and canceling their attack. All the features make it harder to master and this makes playing inf more skill based I think. Give cav something more than "W" and Left mouse button so 1vs1 cav won't be just straight_charge_random_shit. yeh ctrl-J is nearly useless in fact :/

Also increase dmg on legs of the horses because it's so realistic but fuck the realistic features that could actually help cav lol...

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Slamz on July 07, 2012, 10:06:39 am

I think it all comes down to collision.

The stamina/spurring idea is a bit silly because I'm pretty sure a horse can run like the wind for 6 minutes.  It's not like they are fat American horses who need to stop and catch their breath after a 30 second run.

But collision...

Horse vs house.
Horse vs tree.
Horse vs horse.
Horse vs too many infantry.

These should all be a lot more dramatic than they currently are.

In fact, in single player, doesn't each infantry you hit slow you down?  You can't just plow into 20 of them and keep going like nothing happened but I see people do that in cRPG.  We dumbed it down?!


Managing your collisions should be the #1 difference between pro cav and noob cav.  If you hit a rock at a gallop you should go ass over teakettle and the world will know you for a noob.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Bryggan on July 07, 2012, 10:58:03 am

I would like to see a horse be able to kick infantry behind, and bite infantry in front, and side step and lunge and all that shit, and be so trained that the rider can sort of let the animal do the thinking while he focuses on killing.  It's more realistic, and probably the fact that is why anyone who could afford a war horse had one.  In the middle ages a good warhorse with a rider decked out in full plate armour was mega-OP, but only a very few could afford that.  The rest just accepted that, and died when encountering one.

But since cRPG has a sort of communist pay out system and everyone is equal we just can't have cav OP.  I suppose the only way we on the servers are not equal is by skill.  So if we complicate riding and mounted combat to such a degree that only the elite-est of the elite can master it, well those of us who are rich in shild but poor in skill better get a shield and accept our lot in life.  Like good yeoman infantry did.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Overdriven on July 07, 2012, 11:23:22 am

Quote from: Torben on July 07, 2012, 07:45:26 am

and I detest killing people by bumping them,  it literally pisses me off to get a kill like that. 

I love killing people like that as an HA. Pumping someone full of arrows and finishing them off with a hefty courser bump (does more damage than my arrows ffs) is o so satisfying. If it wasn't for that bump damage a lot of HA's would get a lot less kills due to HA's real damage being so low in comparison.

Quote from: Slamz on July 07, 2012, 10:06:39 am

In fact, in single player, doesn't each infantry you hit slow you down?  You can't just plow into 20 of them and keep going like nothing happened but I see people do that in cRPG.  We dumbed it down?!

That's what happens in crpg as well  :|

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: ThePoopy on July 07, 2012, 11:59:01 am

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Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Son Of Odin on July 07, 2012, 12:34:58 pm

What about alternating/floating lance angle for lancers? The higher the speed the smaller the angle. Definetly would add a lot of depth to lancing. When you are not moving, your angle is the old non nerfed lance angle. Then when you get more speed it shrinks to the current state. Just throwing ideas here.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Leshma on July 07, 2012, 12:38:55 pm

Makes sense. I've used to play 3 or 4 riding lancer cav, it was decent because of wide lance angle. Right now, making such build is suicide. You won't be able to kill other cavalry and you're too slow which means your backstabbing potential is weak.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Son Of Odin on July 07, 2012, 12:46:54 pm

Also would prevent you from being completely paralyzed against 1h cav in some weirdass corner he got you into. Still in high disadvantage, like it was before, but you could atleast try to fight back. Not just to receive damage and being raped behind the barn :D

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Riddaren on July 07, 2012, 12:48:54 pm

Quote from: Son Of Odin on July 07, 2012, 12:34:58 pm

What about alternating/floating lance angle for lancers? The higher the speed the smaller the angle. Definetly would add a lot of depth to lancing. When you are not moving, your angle is the old non nerfed lance angle. Then when you get more speed it shrinks to the current state. Just throwing ideas here.

Dunno if it makes sense irl but it would definately add more difficulty to lancing. I like the idea.
Just don't start from the current angles... make it 90 degress both sides when you stand still.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Son Of Odin on July 07, 2012, 12:50:14 pm

Quote from: Riddaren on July 07, 2012, 12:48:54 pm

Dunno if it makes sense irl but it would definately add more difficulty to lancing. I like the idea.
Just don't start from the current angles... make it 90 degress both sides when you stand still.

Yeah I was referring to the old native lance angle as the starting point at 0 speed.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Paniolo808 on July 07, 2012, 08:06:06 pm

Quote from: Torben on July 07, 2012, 07:45:26 am

Although I cherish your video input a lot (never new horses could descend like that, woha!)  you are missing the point.

-this is not a nerf thread,  au contrair:  it is a thread which is seeking for answers in how to making horseriding more skillbased.  All in all that will result in a buff for dedicated riders,
and only a nerf concerning the easy part of being a cav.
 and this is the part where you should chip in as an experienced rider!

Yeah. I did see some suggestions however that seemed like they'd ruin it for me, so I kinda knee-jerked it a little bit.  :lol:

I have to go to work soon, so this will be a bit less long-winded. As a kid, I'd wager a good amount of people played with whacking piñatas on birthdays. In my family we did this on horseback, and granted this isn't proper lance practice, but we'd use staves and spear/whack the things as we raced past. I'm sorry to be so contrary in my posts, but I disagree that speed = shouldn't be able to attack. The faster the horse is going, the easier it is to ride in fact. Once you hit a gallop, it's a four-beat movement, and it's like floating on a cloud IMO. Really smooth movement.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMBiUEzAYJk The first three minutes really demonstrates some decent manuevers and lance work. I don't think attack angles should be limited either.
Heres a suggestion. Maybe the more riding points you have, the wider of an attack angle you have?

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: KaMiKaZe_JoE on July 07, 2012, 10:24:25 pm

24

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Guntram on July 07, 2012, 11:15:36 pm

why not just make spears and lances breakable like shields? no sence that a lance thats chouched souldnt break or atleast get stuck in the person like the trowing lance. and as far as takeing damage form falling off the horse, so not fair when you have about 10 ppl that have homeing device to the nearst down horseman the riders dead befor he could say fuck.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Adamar on July 07, 2012, 11:22:07 pm

Lances should just stick to a dead enemy, like a projectile, after a couch. It's tottaly fair with the 1 hit kill.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Son Of Odin on July 07, 2012, 11:28:17 pm

Quote from: Guntram on July 07, 2012, 11:15:36 pm

why not just make spears and lances breakable like shields? no sence that a lance thats chouched souldnt break or atleast get stuck in the person like the trowing lance. and as far as takeing damage form falling off the horse, so not fair when you have about 10 ppl that have homeing device to the nearst down horseman the riders dead befor he could say fuck.

Because that wouldn't improve difficulty. It would only take something off the class. Yes it would be harder but you can't counter random lance break probability with skill and that is not a good thing imo. This thread is about making cav to take more skill, not to lower the skill cap.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Kafein on July 07, 2012, 11:40:28 pm

Quote from: Son Of Odin on July 07, 2012, 11:28:17 pm

Because that wouldn't improve difficulty. It would only take something off the class. Yes it would be harder but you can't counter random lance break probability with skill and that is not a good thing imo. This thread is about making cav to take more skill, not to lower the skill cap.

My feelings exactly.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Son Of Odin on July 07, 2012, 11:48:13 pm

Quote from: Kafein on July 07, 2012, 11:40:28 pm

My feelings exactly.

+1 bro. I know the feel

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Elio on July 08, 2012, 12:03:43 am

Nerf cav ? what for? They already implemented lag spike on Eu1, cavs love it!

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Son Of Odin on July 08, 2012, 12:30:53 am

Quote from: Elio on July 08, 2012, 12:03:43 am

Nerf cav ? what for? They already implemented lag spike on Eu1, cavs love it!

L2R... Read the original post again. It's not about nerfing

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: joespose on July 08, 2012, 03:02:37 am

Cav should work more like this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knRpvurKuqU&feature=player_embedded#!

Especially the stuff from 1:25

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Kafein on July 08, 2012, 03:09:38 am

Quote from: Son Of Odin on July 07, 2012, 11:48:13 pm

+1 bro. I know the feel

Quite awesome my +1 post got more likes than yours.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Son Of Odin on July 08, 2012, 03:13:32 am

Quote from: Kafein on July 08, 2012, 03:09:38 am

Quite awesome my +1 post got more likes than yours.

Quoting me is the best way to get renown :wink:

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Kafein on July 08, 2012, 03:16:54 am

Quote from: Son Of Odin on July 08, 2012, 03:13:32 am

Quoting me is the best way to get renown :wink:

Me too.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Son Of Odin on July 08, 2012, 04:16:45 am

Quote from: Son Of Odin on July 08, 2012, 03:13:32 am

Quoting me is the best way to get renown :wink:

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: WITCHCRAFT on July 08, 2012, 05:22:09 am

I haven't read the entire thread, but even from the first few pages I know I am echoing others. Here's my suggestions:

• Improved inertia - horses have a harder time turning/slowing down if they are charging at full speed. Picking up speed requires a longer distance as well.
• Horses that suddenly lose all momentum (hit a wall, reared, etc.) dismount their riders and damage the rider.
• Consider ranged horsemen (archers, crossbowmen, and throwers) regarding any changes made. People love to hate ranged cavalry, but they are players too and should not be thrown aside when re-doing the whole horse system.
• Reduce shields' ability to absorb hits that would strike parts of the horse that are in front of the shield.
• Make horse bumps deal minor damage (blunt makes sense, but dunno balance-wise) to the horse. Maybe proportional to the damage dealt or the horse's speed?
• Bumps slow down the horse. Prevent a single horseman from "bowling" through a crowd of peasants.
• A spur/burst of speed option for horses. Afterwards, the horse can't reach full speed for X seconds.
• A bonus to shieldwall members to prevent knockdown from a charging horse?

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: betard_lulz on July 09, 2012, 06:36:53 am

Well i am so glad that everyone wants to nerf horses all to shit.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Son Of Odin on July 09, 2012, 11:23:34 am

Bumps. Haters gonna hate.

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Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Kafein on July 09, 2012, 11:27:04 am

Quote from: Son Of Odin on July 09, 2012, 11:23:34 am

Bumps. Haters gonna hate.

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I can't see how could someone hate that.

Btw, "Horsey ride !" is a great pickup line.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Son Of Odin on July 09, 2012, 11:34:28 am

Quote from: Kafein on July 09, 2012, 11:27:04 am

I can't see how could someone hate that.

Btw, "Horsey ride !" is a great pickup line.

Yeah but you must pick up a girl that you can 100% surely carry home :D.

Hmm it indeed must be a good line. It has cider whale uglywhore- protection built in it. You pull that line for a fat ugly chick (which you would regret in the morning) => you can't carry her anywhere. Success with a hot chick => win. It's drunk idiot proof :mrgreen:

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Kafein on July 09, 2012, 11:42:23 am

Looking at the votes, I suspect Gurnisson of minusing all my posts and Zlisch of plusing them.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: bruce on July 09, 2012, 01:15:26 pm

Stop with the renown circle jerking, you two.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Son Of Odin on July 09, 2012, 01:48:17 pm

Quote from: bruce on July 09, 2012, 01:15:26 pm

Stop with the renown circle jerking, you two.

Wanna join us and make it a threesome? :wink:

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: _Tak_ on July 09, 2012, 01:51:37 pm

Quote from: A_Hot_Elf_Princess on July 08, 2012, 05:22:09 am

I haven't read the entire thread, but even from the first few pages I know I am echoing others. Here's my suggestions:

• Improved inertia - horses have a harder time turning/slowing down if they are charging at full speed. Picking up speed requires a longer distance as well.
• Horses that suddenly lose all momentum (hit a wall, reared, etc.) dismount their riders and damage the rider.
• Consider ranged horsemen (archers, crossbowmen, and throwers) regarding any changes made. People love to hate ranged cavalry, but they are players too and should not be thrown aside when re-doing the whole horse system.
• Reduce shields' ability to absorb hits that would strike parts of the horse that are in front of the shield.
• Make horse bumps deal minor damage (blunt makes sense, but dunno balance-wise) to the horse. Maybe proportional to the damage dealt or the horse's speed?
• Bumps slow down the horse. Prevent a single horseman from "bowling" through a crowd of peasants.
• A spur/burst of speed option for horses. Afterwards, the horse can't reach full speed for X seconds.
• A bonus to shieldwall members to prevent knockdown from a charging horse?

Everything you said is basically nerf

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Rhekimos on July 09, 2012, 02:14:04 pm

Please don't add unnecessary unpredictability to the game. Things like horses weaving randomly to sides.

You might as well incorporate leg cramps for foot soldiers, and make them randomly miss steps. And fall over every once in a while.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Son Of Odin on July 09, 2012, 02:18:42 pm

Yeah some derp random actions are not really a solution here...

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on July 09, 2012, 02:21:18 pm

Quote from: bruce on July 09, 2012, 01:15:26 pm

Stop with the renown circle jerking, you two.

Mad?

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Son Of Odin on July 09, 2012, 03:49:23 pm

Quote from: Zlisch_The_Butcher on July 09, 2012, 02:21:18 pm

Mad?

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He mad

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Adamar on July 09, 2012, 03:51:12 pm

Quote from: Contra on July 09, 2012, 02:14:04 pm

Please don't add unnecessary unpredictability to the game. Things like horses weaving randomly to sides.

You might as well incorporate leg cramps for foot soldiers, and make them randomly miss steps. And fall over every once in a while.

cool!

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: betard_lulz on July 09, 2012, 05:32:04 pm

Why the fuck cant we improve things instead of constantly nerfing them ffs

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: ROHYPNOL on July 09, 2012, 07:04:59 pm

Quote from: betard_lulz on July 09, 2012, 05:32:04 pm

Why the fuck cant we improve things instead of constantly nerfing them ffs

i agree with this guy... just revert it to old crpg with a couple minor changes... too big of a skill curve... too many noobs.. people will always bitch... stop messing the damn game up plz

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: dynamike on July 09, 2012, 07:32:44 pm

What is the best proof that cav currently already requires skill?

There are a few cav heroes on the NA servers that can almost singlehandedly nullify all of the enemy cav players (killing/de-horsing/distracting) and then proceed to mop up the rest of the infantry.

Why? Because they are simply BETTER than the rest of the cav.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: PhantomZero on July 09, 2012, 07:57:14 pm

Quote from: dynamike on July 09, 2012, 07:32:44 pm

What is the best proof that cav currently already requires skill?

There are a few cav heroes on the NA servers that can almost singlehandedly nullify all of the enemy cav players (killing/de-horsing/distracting) and then proceed to mop up the rest of the infantry.

Why? Because they are simply BETTER than the rest of the cav.

But dynamike! Cav players can kill me, and I have lots of skill, so therefore playing cav requires none, and it should be made more difficult so it is fair!

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: betard_lulz on July 09, 2012, 08:02:51 pm

Quote from: PhantomZero on July 09, 2012, 07:57:14 pm

But dynamike! Cav players can kill me, and I have lots of skill, so therefore playing cav requires none, and it should be made more difficult so it is fair!

I may have this tattooed on me. DEAR LORD DOES THIS SCREAM CRPG LOGIC

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: ROHYPNOL on July 09, 2012, 08:32:45 pm

some cav players clearly have more skill than others.. .. if you want it to be even more skill based chadz add back in the side swinging

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Kafein on July 09, 2012, 11:04:30 pm

Skill is a 12-dimensional being we poor players can only see 5 dimensions at a time.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Tzar on July 12, 2012, 02:28:56 am

Quote from: A_Hot_Elf_Princess on July 08, 2012, 05:22:09 am

I haven't read the entire thread, but even from the first few pages I know I am echoing others. Here's my suggestions:

• Improved inertia - horses have a harder time turning/slowing down if they are charging at full speed. Picking up speed requires a longer distance as well.
• Horses that suddenly lose all momentum (hit a wall, reared, etc.) dismount their riders and damage the rider.
• Consider ranged horsemen (archers, crossbowmen, and throwers) regarding any changes made. People love to hate ranged cavalry, but they are players too and should not be thrown aside when re-doing the whole horse system.
• Reduce shields' ability to absorb hits that would strike parts of the horse that are in front of the shield.
• Make horse bumps deal minor damage (blunt makes sense, but dunno balance-wise) to the horse. Maybe proportional to the damage dealt or the horse's speed?
• Bumps slow down the horse. Prevent a single horseman from "bowling" through a crowd of peasants.
• A spur/burst of speed option for horses. Afterwards, the horse can't reach full speed for X seconds.
• A bonus to shieldwall members to prevent knockdown from a charging horse?

+1 some good thoughts

Only minus is that cav players would have to think when they load cRPG.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Piok on July 12, 2012, 09:33:09 am

Buff heavy lance and lance speed and nerf thrust a bit 8-)

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: Vkvkvk on July 12, 2012, 09:41:57 am

Quote from: Kulin_ban on July 12, 2012, 08:48:27 am

Give everyone ability to ride every horse with impaired performance, and ability to whistle-call horses.

I say remove whistle-call.

Cavalry pretty much has two lives in certain instances, and the whistle-call only makes it so they can go back to full power and get a third life and repeat and repeat and repeat until THEY are personally dead with the click of 3 buttons.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: BlackCorsair_RS on July 12, 2012, 12:12:42 pm

Quote from: Vkvkvk on July 12, 2012, 09:41:57 am

I say remove whistle-call.

Cavalry pretty much has two lives in certain instances, and the whistle-call only makes it so they can go back to full power and get a third life and repeat and repeat and repeat until THEY are personally dead with the click of 3 buttons.

you arent correct, if all cav have two lives, there will be no free horses on battlefield to "get a third life and repeat and repeat and repeat until THEY are personally dead with the click of 3 buttons."

So these third-fourth lives are only for skilled cav, who not only live longer when other cavalry to find free horses, but also survived long enough on foot to go away from enemies who unmounted him and only then take that horse.

Title: Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
Post by: bruce on July 12, 2012, 01:10:07 pm

Quote from: Vkvkvk on July 12, 2012, 09:41:57 am

Cavalry pretty much has two lives in certain instances, and the whistle-call only makes it so they can go back to full power and get a third life and repeat and repeat and repeat until THEY are personally dead with the click of 3 buttons.

But if horsemen have two lives (first horse then their own) there cannot be spare horses on the battlefield. Or horsemen don't have two lives but only one. One of these is true, both cannot be possibly true at the same time.

Or maybe, all the spare horses are there because infantrymen spawn with horses then dismount so their cavalry has extra ones available.  :D