Author Topic: Horses - how to improve difficulty  (Read 24004 times)

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Offline CrazyCracka420

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Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
« Reply #195 on: July 02, 2012, 09:30:10 pm »
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I think you're greatly oversimplifying cavalry, and undermining infantry's own responsibility.  "i'm not retarded, nor is all my single minded teammates who can't be bothered to use a pike, or run in a group with a pikeman".

one pike, one long spear, one pitch fork, and a horse is nullified.  2 1h'ers standing next to each other, first guy gets hit, 2nd guy takes out the rider or the horse.  Seems really overpowered to me.

I'm not just saying not only are cavalry not overpowered, nothing in the game is overpowered.  Cavalry is always going to pick apart a team of rambo's who run around on their own.  Cavalry is pretty much useless whenever infantry is organized into semi-formed groups with lancers/pikemen in the group (not to mention throwers or other ranged).  A couple throwers in a group and I'm basically cut off from that section of the map. 

Stop blaming everyone else, and take some responsibility for your actions.  Cavalry can easily be countered, do you have the intelligence and organizational skills to do so?  That's the real issue.

Almost every nerf or QQ thread boils down to people not wanting to use the tactics or equipment to counter what they're whining about.  God forbid I should have to change my play style to counter another class, that's blasphemy. 
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Offline Frell

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Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
« Reply #196 on: July 02, 2012, 09:30:30 pm »
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^ fixed

Also, if i'm not mistaken, Frell plays archer? So ignore any post he makes on whole forum.

No, I haven't played archer in over a year and I don't enjoy the class one bit. YOU suspected I played archer.


Valperga is a shielder

Frell is a 2h

Offline polkafranzi

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Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
« Reply #197 on: July 02, 2012, 09:35:45 pm »
+1
No, I haven't played archer in over a year and I don't enjoy the class one bit. YOU suspected I played archer.


Valperga is a shielder

Frell is a 2h

Well, so much cav hate can only come from an archer or a 2her  :wink: so I guess i was close.
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Offline Frell

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Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
« Reply #198 on: July 02, 2012, 09:37:03 pm »
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I don't hate the cavs damage, I hate their constant motorcycle speed that never changes and them bumping people with no consequences (like the horse breaking a leg)  If a 2m fall ingame can kill them then so should ramming into a crowd of people.

Offline Kafein

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Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
« Reply #199 on: July 02, 2012, 11:02:07 pm »
+1
That is kinda what medieval cavalry did. They crushed into their enemies using momentum and weight. Decreasing HP and armor will only increase the lame thing that cav is in this mod. A backstabbing class. I think cavalry should be changed in something that can effectively attack an aware enemy, but only those with short weapons. I really don't know why anyone would want cav to rely completely on backstabbing, also ranged would rape horses if they get any less durable.

Clearly low horse survivability isn't very realistic, but I don't think that is what makes cav a backstabbing class. I think low maneuver is the problem.

Everytime I've played cav I noticed how much more room for error I had when I used an Arabian. High maneuver allows you to fuck up, but get out before you get properly punished for your mistake. You can also charge someone, back off at the last moment, you don't have to commit and deal with the consequences of a bad judgement call. You can even run into a pike and use your super acceleration to get out alive.

Having lower maneuver forces cav to anticipate, people with good battle awareness will make the proper choices, and be good cav and therefore it will be more skillbased. With even higher maneuver every joker can just turn around whenever his shitty plan turns out to not work.

Yes it forces cav to anticipate. But anticipating in this case only means adding areas where you don't want to go and people you can't kill. It doesn't open anything.

Make horses a lot tougher on the front, but not versus pikemen, less maneuverable and make their hooves noise louder. Cav will be able to do much more against an aware enemy. Lower manuever means that they are less unpredictable and maybe that will make people more aware of cav. You just spot them once, see that they are not going to be a danger. With the current Arabians, you have to look around every 5 seconds cause they could've turned around at any time.

Obviously give them their lance angle back. That is long overdue.

Fuck, now I missed the point of this thread aswell, discussing how to fix the current system like a derp.

The HP of a low maneuver horse is irrelevant. With low maneuver the infantry guy will dodge the charge and hit the horse and/or the rider.



You actually have the same analysis as I had before the maneuver nerf (was quite a long time ago now). But playing both versions convinced me maneuver cannot be traded for survivability. The actual bottleneck that defines what enemies you are able to attack frontally is not armor, not HP and not charge damage, it's maneuver. There is no use in charging people that will dodge your attack and eventually harm you doing so.


Of course maneuver also allows cav to change plans at the last moment, but that's an acceptable collateral for enabling them decent duelling power, because no other will. The only successful way to fight aware enemies as cav is avoiding being hit, you only ever have one attack a a time. Reducing the agility of horses means it's harder to avoid being hit, which results in less frontal combat and more backstabbing.



Final note : avoiding being commited to your moves is also what makes the melee combat skillbased. What if you couldn't interrupt your attacks with blocks ? That's exactly how low maneuver horses are.

Offline Yachdiel

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Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
« Reply #200 on: July 03, 2012, 01:39:39 am »
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The best way to change horses is to change Mount and Blade entirely, the way horses run like Two Wheeled autobikes needs to be different.

-Cavalry did charge

-Cavalry sometimes did swerve between infantry and picked off some others

But the fact is, Cavalry both needed the support of their own infantry and to support their own infantry

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZUfzAFL5Ek
In the very beginning of this video for Mount and Blade 2 you see how they reinvented the way Cav moves. Horses can move in more directions than a bike does, horses themselves can probably backpedal the same as some infantry does (maybe not to the same extreme). And a lance Cavalry, with more maneuverability like this at low speeds, can support their infantry as much as a piker, and at high speeds could cavalry charge with reduced maneuverability (albeit some of the suggestions in this thread need to be considered about how easily they are taken out at highspeeds, but thats another story).

To improve difficulty I say change the playstyle to that that would require skill to learn and be of highest potential to the team...

Add horse animations like this and fix
-Cavalry difficulty
-the need for ridiculous poledancing pikers that would be replaced with team moving and supporting cavalry with a lance and some maneuverability
-the need for cavalry avoiding direct combat and using an absurd combo of extreme maneuverability at high speeds to swerve
-the low population of cavalry types that don't use lances
-the amount of overall horsebumping, enemy and team

Offline Joker86

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Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
« Reply #201 on: July 03, 2012, 01:56:30 am »
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[...]


Kafein, you are lobbying here for a cavalry playstyle I always hated. It's this circling around the enemy with an Arabian Warhorse, and attacking like some kind of dragonfly. But I think horses are not supposed to be like Muhammad Ali, float like a butterfly and sting like a bee.

And I think the backstabbing is perfectly okay. Cavalry should NOT be able to attack most people frontally, because then nothing would be left to compensate for their high mobility and the shitload of advantages ist brings. Yes, in real life cavalry attacked frontally, but this doesn't work in cRPG, because in real life every mounted warrior, never mind if knight, man at arms or a simple mounted sergeant, was worth more than several infantrymen, unless it's mounted sergeant vs. dismounted knight perhaps. But different "values" doesn't work in a multiplayer game. That's why you need to limit cav on backstabbing.

Cav is no duel class at all. Please reduce maneuverability of Arabian Warhose to something like 41 or 42, and the other horses accordingly. It's plain retarded to see a high riding skill Arab Warhorse rider charging a hoplite with his Ashwood pike, he releases his stab so that the horse would have been hit properly if it kept on charging, but immediately after the stab got released the horse is slowed down, the stab hits air, and while the hoplite is still recovering from the stab the horse accelerates again and the hoplite gets lance stabbed. I saw this. It's ridiculous.
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline Kafein

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Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
« Reply #202 on: July 03, 2012, 02:38:47 am »
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Kafein, you are lobbying here for a cavalry playstyle I always hated. It's this circling around the enemy with an Arabian Warhorse, and attacking like some kind of dragonfly. But I think horses are not supposed to be like Muhammad Ali, float like a butterfly and sting like a bee.

And I think the backstabbing is perfectly okay. Cavalry should NOT be able to attack most people frontally, because then nothing would be left to compensate for their high mobility and the shitload of advantages ist brings. Yes, in real life cavalry attacked frontally, but this doesn't work in cRPG, because in real life every mounted warrior, never mind if knight, man at arms or a simple mounted sergeant, was worth more than several infantrymen, unless it's mounted sergeant vs. dismounted knight perhaps. But different "values" doesn't work in a multiplayer game. That's why you need to limit cav on backstabbing.

Let's not mix everything together.

I agree agility-centered cavalry isn't ideal by my standards either, but it's the only thing that works in a game where humans are not subject to inertia. The easiest path is changing horses.

It is also much more involved than just setting up a good attack route. Afterall, this is a game, and not a simulation. People are meant to have fun playing and be able to influence things with their controls.

Cav is no duel class at all. Please reduce maneuverability of Arabian Warhose to something like 41 or 42, and the other horses accordingly. It's plain retarded to see a high riding skill Arab Warhorse rider charging a hoplite with his Ashwood pike, he releases his stab so that the horse would have been hit properly if it kept on charging, but immediately after the stab got released the horse is slowed down, the stab hits air, and while the hoplite is still recovering from the stab the horse accelerates again and the hoplite gets lance stabbed. I saw this. It's ridiculous.

Even though what you describe is unrealistic to a degree, I believe this thread and the game is about skillbased gameplay. This is an example of a miss-timed strike, which can happen in any other type of fight whatsoever. Why would it be unacceptable for cav ?

What would actually be terrible would be "ho you commited to charge me 5 seconds earlier, sorry, I will hit you and you can't do anything about it", no skill, no fun. Just restrictions.

Btw, with the current maneuver values and terrain effect it happens quite often that people have the time to block my lance and hit my horse's back if they stand on 5 degree slopes.

Offline Joker86

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Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
« Reply #203 on: July 03, 2012, 03:10:28 am »
+1
I guess in the end it boils down to the personal idea of how cavalry should be.

In my eyes cav should always remain only support role, similar to pikemen and crossbowman. In no way they should be able to take on most enemies on their own, even if the participation of the other teammates is limited on distracting the enemy so cav can backstab.

The act of fighting as cav itself is incredibly easy: just release the mouse button at the right moment. You will either score a hit, get blocked or miss. With a little bit exercise you won't miss any more, so it's either only a hit or getting blocked. Cav itself doesn't have to block that often, and if it has to, it's a) usually only once and b) happens with a shield, anyway. In comparison to archery and infantry cavalry needs only a fraction of skill and reflexes to fight and wound/kill enemies. Don't tell my ride-by-lancing is an art that needs to be mastered, it's easy as pie. At least hitting reliably in most standard situations. (Of course cav lancer duels and other stuff is more difficult, but you can have a positive K/D even without those things).

That's why the skill of cavalry should be more about "knowledge", like when to attack, from where, which way, which enemy and so on. It can't be compared to the other fighting styles, because the amount of reflexes and muscle memory needed to play cav successfully is really low. And I think this will never change. Ride by stabbing will always remain ride by stabbing.

Together with the high mobility of cavalry and all the other advantages it has I think everything which goes beyond backstabbing is way too OP for cav.

This is not about realism, it's about balance. There is a reason most top cavalry players rely on the Arab Warhorse.

Kafein, usually we agree, but this time I think you are biased towards your favourite horse and the success you have with it. Cavalry really shouldn't be infantry with 35 ATH.  :?
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline Oberyn

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Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
« Reply #204 on: July 03, 2012, 03:23:13 am »
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Joker, why were you so incredibly awful as cav?
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Offline Canary

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Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
« Reply #205 on: July 03, 2012, 03:51:31 am »
+4
I think you're greatly oversimplifying cavalry, and undermining infantry's own responsibility.  "i'm not retarded, nor is all my single minded teammates who can't be bothered to use a pike, or run in a group with a pikeman".

one pike, one long spear, one pitch fork, and a horse is nullified.  2 1h'ers standing next to each other, first guy gets hit, 2nd guy takes out the rider or the horse.  Seems really overpowered to me.

I'm not just saying not only are cavalry not overpowered, nothing in the game is overpowered.  Cavalry is always going to pick apart a team of rambo's who run around on their own.  Cavalry is pretty much useless whenever infantry is organized into semi-formed groups with lancers/pikemen in the group (not to mention throwers or other ranged).  A couple throwers in a group and I'm basically cut off from that section of the map. 

Stop blaming everyone else, and take some responsibility for your actions.  Cavalry can easily be countered, do you have the intelligence and organizational skills to do so?  That's the real issue.

Almost every nerf or QQ thread boils down to people not wanting to use the tactics or equipment to counter what they're whining about.  God forbid I should have to change my play style to counter another class, that's blasphemy.

I think you're oversimplifying how exactly cavalry can be countered. I mean, I understand that the game isn't based around 1vs1 fighting, but your suggestion to counter one player riding a horse is to have more players next to you. Yeah, well, one player on multiple players is always stacked on the side with more players' favor. In your 1hander example, though, the threshold for the attention and diligence required is proportionally much higher on the side with more players than it would be in almost any other case. On top of which, if a shielder is alone, he shouldn't have a chance against a cavalry? He has to rely on having another player with him or he has to "be bothered" to carry a weapon he's not spec'd into or else or the cav player should have absolute dominion of him and automatically win? I'm personally not a fan of the "hard counters" or the rock-paper-scissor approach to balance, but I suppose there have to be some ways that certain specs are limited. It's just unfortunate that cavalry have such limited and specific counters.

You say that cavalry is useless when infantry is organized. Yes. A player charging into an organized group is going to lose (in this case the cavalry player), but that's essentially the same thing you're saying about the "rambo's who run around on their own." The difference is that the rambo (infantry) players don't require such specific equipment or playstyles to defeat when compared with a horseman. They're also far easier to avoid. But it's okay for the cav player to run around on his own and be less susceptible to predatory playstyles while being harder to deal with unless you're specifically prepared? That is an egregious double standard: Infantry has to organize to succeed, but cavalry does not.

I think we can agree that being aware is the way to defeat cavalry. But on the converse side of that: cavalry is entirely dependent on being an exploitive playstyle. It's not that it's overpowered, it's that it can take advantage of its ideal conditions so easily, more easily than any other playstyle. The sheer speed at which they can appear means that they're much harder to pay attention to or even notice before it's too late than other classes. They have more than one way to kill a player without allowing them to block. They don't have to engage if they don't want to, but they base their playstyle around engaging when other players don't want them to. If it's not unbalanced, it's certainly unfair.


Now for a more facetious response:
You have to have intelligence to beat cavalry, but cavalry can just wait until you're occupied and attack you without opposition. Yeah, guys, be intelligent! Take responsibility and change your class to succeed! In other words, roll cav.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2012, 04:23:01 am by Canary »

Offline Joker86

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Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
« Reply #206 on: July 03, 2012, 05:11:43 am »
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Joker, why were you so incredibly awful as cav?

Actually I had the best results with it, with the lowest effort  :?
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline Oberyn

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Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
« Reply #207 on: July 03, 2012, 05:40:45 am »
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Actually, you were terrible and got owned by literally any other cav. Just because you played like a massive pussy doesn't make the class OP, no more than Agor being a bundle of sticks camper makes crossbows OP.
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Offline obitus

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Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
« Reply #208 on: July 03, 2012, 05:49:32 am »
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Suggestions:

-Don't let infantry players balance the cavalry class
-Remove Ctrl-J
-Remove rearing animation when obstacles are hit.  Instead, the object should deal appropriate damage to the horse and the horse's location/direction should be altered by it instead of coming to a complete stop.  The only time a horse should come to a complete stop is doing something retarded like riding head on into a giant wall, which should toss the rider and damage the horse considerably.

Offline Leesin

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Re: Horses - how to improve difficulty
« Reply #209 on: July 03, 2012, 07:49:06 am »
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Brilliant. The standard "my class if fine, everyone who thinks its OP is a QQer and anyone who thinks its UP is my friend!" I never commented at all on the damage of cav. Nothing about cav is overpowered but the role is still easy to play compared to everything else, and chadz wants that to change.


And I already contributed to a non-nerfing suggestion. Look on the first page.

Being a shielder is the easiest role to play of all ( getting +1's to your scoreboard kills does not determine how well you have played ) and Horses are expensive to upkeep for a reason, they do give you an advantage in some situations.

And go play a horse archer and tell me just how "easy" it is.