cRPG

cRPG => General Discussion => Topic started by: cmp on June 20, 2012, 03:31:37 am

Title: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: cmp on June 20, 2012, 03:31:37 am
Click (http://youtu.be/rZIWhK8VXUo)

Yes, it would need lots of item/mechanics balance to avoid some weapons/weapon classes becoming useless.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Cyclopsided on June 20, 2012, 03:34:48 am
Oh my god this is amazing. The things you can do with this! <3
Will be some careful balancing though.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Serfonz on June 20, 2012, 03:36:51 am
cmp plz
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: cmp on June 20, 2012, 03:37:21 am
cmp plz

*pls
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Tzar on June 20, 2012, 03:37:38 am
i dun get it.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Casimir on June 20, 2012, 03:39:44 am
blade does cut damage, hilt does blunt damage.  whats to get nub :P
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Grumbs on June 20, 2012, 03:40:04 am
i dun get it.

Looks like you would do some blunt damage with the shaft of the weapon rather than the same damage as the bladed end

Looks like a pretty neat feature, but it might be a bit of a nerf for polearms
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Tzar on June 20, 2012, 03:41:36 am
Aye ok
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Peasant_Woman on June 20, 2012, 03:41:45 am
Amazing. Seen this requested many many times and now it could become a reality.
I'd like to thank you cmp for everything you have done for this mod. Everything you touch turns into fulfilled hopes and amazing gameplay.

My only regret is that I have but one + to give.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Wraist on June 20, 2012, 03:46:35 am
Go, go CMP awesomeness!
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: SeQuel on June 20, 2012, 03:57:22 am
So the closer hit would be blunt damage?

Also for swords would it not matter since yah know it's a huge steel blade therefor it would always be cut?
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: San on June 20, 2012, 03:58:29 am
I wonder how this will affect the short 1h cut weapons. It will be nice to have a special hilt/fist hitbox for that.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Vkvkvk on June 20, 2012, 04:05:34 am
As long as the blunt damage on the hilt isn't over the top making it like an actual hilt bump rather than full damage.

Also, will this also apply to 2h/1h? I can't really see the hilt of a two handed or one handed weapon do full damage either, if anything it should be much less than even getting smacked across the face with a polearm's haft.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Torost on June 20, 2012, 04:14:32 am
If you add different stats for leftswing rightswing overhead and stab. Would that spice up things?
Bias strikes with the "strong" arm, and extra power for overheads, esp for 2handed weapons?
Damage types that match the weapon.
example

Elegant Poleaxe:
Leftswing  :30 blunt
Rightswing:35 cut
Overhead  :40 cut
Stab         :26 pierce

Isnt this possible today with just changing some variables?
The rockpaperscissors mindgame would be harder, knowing ur opponents strengths would be an extra edge.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Miley on June 20, 2012, 04:17:54 am
Buff 2h more?
I vote no.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Zanze on June 20, 2012, 04:20:39 am
Wouldn't it be a tad more important to give polearms an overhead stab?
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Burr1ck on June 20, 2012, 04:23:21 am
Buff 2h more?
I vote no.

Buff skill level cap more?
I vote yes.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Miley on June 20, 2012, 04:25:59 am
Buff skill level cap more?
I vote yes.

This is still a major nerf to polearms. That means less polearmers and more two-handers, which mean more cavalry, which means more OP and ranged.

What you said is only buffing the skill level cap for polearmers...
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Zisa on June 20, 2012, 04:29:05 am
Actually...
You could lessen the damage from 2h cut very near the blade.
There will be tears, pissing and moaning.

I'll start...
'But I was trying to cut with the sharp bit.. this is too punitive, especially if I catch someone's sleeve which magically stops the cutting blow."

I voted yes anyway.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Miley on June 20, 2012, 04:32:30 am
I honestly don't see what's wrong with the melee system we have now. I think polearms (with polestagger), two-handers, and one-handers balance each other out, even if they all do some silly things.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Earthdforce on June 20, 2012, 04:35:05 am
I like changes, keep em coming :D
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: TurmoilTom on June 20, 2012, 04:35:21 am
So add this, and then buff polearm damage at the tip/head of the pole and have low, blunt shaft damage?

I like it.

Also, nerf 2h. Like, seriously.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Turkhammer on June 20, 2012, 04:36:07 am
On a different matter Cmp, is there any consideration for fatigue being modeled?  It would be nice to have the weight and balance of a weapon be taken into effect when it comes to the number of swings that can be taken before a period of rest and recovery must take place.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Mechanix on June 20, 2012, 04:38:05 am
Make polearm overheads do Pierce damage (depending on the weapon) to balance out with the 2hers.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Wraist on June 20, 2012, 04:39:29 am
One of the devs also mentioned about wanting to make the armor types/attack types more interesting, so perhaps there would be another difference between 2hers and poles as well here.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: MrShine on June 20, 2012, 05:02:23 am
I think that's a really cool idea for a change.

My request is to spend extra time on looking at weapon rebalance before releasing any part of this... and be ready to make adjustments after.

I have concerns that hits that normally would glance might connect up close due to the blunt damage type, and that would be a little cheesy...

...but the end result of this would be quite awesome, so it's totally worthy the growing pains in the meantime.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Joker86 on June 20, 2012, 05:05:36 am
Judging from that video I am confirmed in my assumption that the developers are striving more for a realistic, team based experience, rather than an arena for skill monsters.

This change would of course be a nerf to polearms, so most likely they will get a buff in some way, but even then their role will change. Not only the spear weapons, also the halberds will turn more to some kind of support weapon, which in theory adds to the rock-paper-scissors-system and makes the different classes even more individual. (Because atm there is only little difference between fighting with a DGS and a poleaxe, especially since polestagger got removed)

I voted yes, because those things are what I like. Make the battlefield more realistic, and the individual count less.

And yes, all you skill whores can downvote my post as you like, I don't mind.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Dexxtaa on June 20, 2012, 05:09:00 am
Click (http://youtu.be/rZIWhK8VXUo)

Yes, it would need lots of item/mechanics balance to avoid some weapons/weapon classes becoming useless.

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Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: TurmoilTom on June 20, 2012, 05:11:54 am
This would also be a nerf to STR-based polearm builds, because they would lack the athletics to get proper distancing. And I like any nerf to STR builds... Of course, this would just make everyone they fight more prone to kicks... Hmmm...
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Kenji on June 20, 2012, 05:23:39 am
I'm surprised that noone has requested a nerf for ranged, yet. :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Vkvkvk on June 20, 2012, 05:35:00 am
This would also be a nerf to STR-based polearm builds, because they would lack the athletics to get proper distancing. And I like any nerf to STR builds... Of course, this would just make everyone they fight more prone to kicks... Hmmm...

Too bad STR-based builds will still do ridiculous damage with the hilt/haft so said proper distancing won't be really needed.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Brrrak on June 20, 2012, 05:36:48 am
Pommel-strikes and buffeting, here we come.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Baggy on June 20, 2012, 05:40:10 am
So add this, and then buff polearm damage at the tip/head of the pole and have low, blunt shaft damage?

I like it.

Also, nerf 2h. Like, seriously.
This man/dinosaur thing has got it right.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: HardRice on June 20, 2012, 05:43:30 am
cmp you damned wizard...  :shock:
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: SixThumbs on June 20, 2012, 05:44:00 am
Sure, I guess, I just hope in the long run new features don't just make the mechanics wonky(er).
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: chadz on June 20, 2012, 05:45:59 am
Blatant cry for +1 imo.

Don't let yourself get fooled guys!
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: HarunYahya on June 20, 2012, 05:47:43 am
Too much work to be done for what ?
I don't think this is what cRPG needs .
Why don't you consider adding stamina/fatigue system instead ?
With that creativity and knowladge of yours , im sure it would be easily implemented . I know it is a radical change but i think it would balance most of the issues about the game by itself.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Earthdforce on June 20, 2012, 05:48:22 am
Blatant cry for +1 imo.

Don't let yourself get fooled guys!
Prepare to be +'d yourself.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: robert_namo on June 20, 2012, 05:50:56 am
Does this means stabs that aren't direct hits will do no damage and glance every time if someone wiggles?
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: KaMiKaZe_JoE on June 20, 2012, 05:51:41 am
Will this nerf cav?

It buffs a potential counter-class, but only regarding swinging strikes, not thrusts which are the whole reason spears counter cav.

Doesn't nerf cav, so no.

Edit: UNLESS WHAT NAMOS SAYS HAPPENS. THEN CAV GETS BUFF, AND I GET TO PAD MY k/d SOME MORE!
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Rhaelys on June 20, 2012, 06:51:34 am
If the knockdown tag can be added to the blunt damage that occurs when hitting with the hilt of a polearm, then I am very much in favor of this change. If not, then at least buffing the damage of the blade portion of polearms to compensate for the lower damage of the blunt hilt hit would suffice. I wouldn't mind hitting enemies for 55 cut damage.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Everkistus on June 20, 2012, 07:03:14 am
This looks nice and cool.

Hopefully this will influence all gameplay and move it towards a rock-scissors-paper-ranged-cav style of play like Joker mentioned.

I'd like to see 1h remain usable as a class where the whole blade does the damage. I do believe there's no need for a rework on this class, it's pretty balanced altogether at the moment.

2h could be more oriented to playing with range. For example, the hitting part of the longsword is actually the 1/3 of the whole lenght, rest would have even been unsharpened. However, gameplay wise this could probably mean something like full damage for 1/2 first part of the blade, 60% damage for rest.

Polearms would need a rework. I'd like to see polearms as a support class; they are slow and cumbersome but either hit like a train or polestagger the target.

Archery is quite balanced at the moment. All the twohanders crying about it should realize that archers are meant to counter them, so they should be able to kill you.

Crossbow needs some sort of skill imo, it's very easy just to grab an xbow and use it as a shotgun. This is silly.

Throwing is throwing, it's a melee support class like polearms.

Cav is a tricky situation. They are basically mounted footmen, since every one of these classes also work on cav. I believe the key with it is to work on the horses. They should really hit hard, getting trampled should leave you only with like 50% HP. On the other hand, if they really caught a spear in the chest they would drop dead or reduce the movement speed into running level unless they'd have massive armor on them. If possible, perhaps a "Bonus against cav" tag for some weapons?

I can easily see a problem with this though, since people would just go as a twohander because they want to be the super action mega rambo hero who slaughters the whole enemy team with his superior greatsword. There is not so much glory in playing as a pikeman who is poking the enemies from behind as the twohanders stack the kills (hopefully some day we will see damage inflicted to enemy team as a score meter instead of kills). This would lead to a situation where cav would be superior to all inf, just bumping them down day and night since there wouldn't be enough polearmers to stop them.

It is quite tricky, and whatever devs decide to do with this, they have a lot of work ahead of them. I'm still willing to help in item balancing if needed :-P
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: PieParadox on June 20, 2012, 07:06:40 am
Could promote more backpeddling of polearms so as to use the weapon.

I like the idea though.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: TurmoilTom on June 20, 2012, 07:13:12 am
Crossbow needs some sort of skill imo, it's very easy just to grab an xbow and use it as a shotgun. This is silly.

Crossbows were purposely designed that way. Anyone *should* be able to pick one up and do *something* with it. The only sort of problem I see with crossbows is that (iirc) they were very difficult to load because it required a lot of strength to pull the string back. I think the only improvement crossbows could use right now is a higher strength requirement.

inb4realismargumentshouldbedisregarded
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: autobus on June 20, 2012, 07:13:16 am
actually that should work for twohanders too cause "the strong part" of the blade – the one third closest to the hilt should do way less damage.

also

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Toodles on June 20, 2012, 07:29:10 am
 :!:

This is featured in Vikingr already - it affects axes both one handed and two handed, spears (no, you cannot kill a guy at point blank range with a long spear by wiggling around senselessly, only give him a bit of a stagger) maces and swords. Yes, even swords, in Vikingr most damage will be dealt with the middle section of the sword, with the area closest to the hilt dealing the least amount (although it being a blade, naturally it'll still cause damage). This cuts down a huge deal on the spammy spammy one handed left to right for instance, every single weapon has it's own sweet spot. Someone mentioned raising the skill cap - this absolutely does it. I was hugely in favour of this feature over there, so definitely I'll support it here.

By the way, you might say that it'll cause people to permanently stay at their own weapon specific sweet spot range and thus cause further backpedal and or annoyances, just so you know, it can actually give a reason to sweep for the FEET when one is CLOSER than ideal distance - it's all about the distance from your hand / hands to the target.

Anyway, one handed axe fights in Vikingr are possibly the most fun I've had with Warband in ages, land a proper blow and it's often a one hit kill. Awesome feature, requires a HUGE amount of stat balancing to even things out. Worth it.

Bjorn
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Froto_the_Loc on June 20, 2012, 07:34:32 am
I'm really worried about my stabs on my Arabian Guard sword.
I'm not sure how they land when I turn...
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Vkvkvk on June 20, 2012, 08:03:34 am
If the knockdown tag can be added to the blunt damage that occurs when hitting with the hilt of a polearm, then I am very much in favor of this change. If not, then at least buffing the damage of the blade portion of polearms to compensate for the lower damage of the blunt hilt hit would suffice. I wouldn't mind hitting enemies for 55 cut damage.

Yeah sure, give ALL polearms knockdown and more damage to compensate for removing a mechanic very similar to knockdown, genius.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Digglez on June 20, 2012, 08:07:25 am
would be a great feature! death to the hiltslashers
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: [ptx] on June 20, 2012, 08:40:35 am
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Vibe on June 20, 2012, 08:45:32 am
Pretty goddamn cool, I'd be up for it.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Smoothrich on June 20, 2012, 08:48:51 am
Not sure why every thread talks about 2 handers dominating the game and being OP, when I try to take notice on NA_1 as I did today, everyone was cav, shielder with blunt or pierce weapon, archer, thrower, or long polearm with heavy armor.  2handers were by far the least numerous and that's the fact whenever I take note of it.  Makes sense when every other class in the game is designed to counter them with ease.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Vkvkvk on June 20, 2012, 08:50:02 am
Not sure why every thread talks about 2 handers dominating the game and being OP, when I try to take notice on NA_1 as I did today, everyone was cav, shielder with blunt or pierce weapon, archer, thrower, or long polearm with heavy armor.  2handers were by far the least numerous and that's the fact whenever I take note of it.  Makes sense when every other class in the game is designed to counter them with ease.

Outside of dueling, 2 handers aren't all that good, anything else is much superior in combat situations where you're fighting more than 1 guy.

People just tend to balance everything on duels I guess.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: [ptx] on June 20, 2012, 09:00:28 am
Or perhaps that is just the situation in NA, not EU.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Vibe on June 20, 2012, 09:02:20 am
Outside of dueling, 2 handers aren't all that good, anything else is much superior in combat situations where you're fighting more than 1 guy.

People just tend to balance everything on duels I guess.

lol so not true

Makes sense when every other class in the game is designed to counter them with ease.

Say what
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: bruce on June 20, 2012, 09:17:10 am
Yes  :D

Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Molly on June 20, 2012, 09:18:04 am
...let the "don't nerf me"-whine commence.

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Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Idzo on June 20, 2012, 09:49:06 am
If this means fps drop then no.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Rhaelys on June 20, 2012, 10:08:46 am
Yeah sure, give ALL polearms knockdown and more damage to compensate for removing a mechanic very similar to knockdown, genius.

That's exactly what I meant, and it is a genius suggestion.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: bosco on June 20, 2012, 10:10:09 am
Love it!

I suggest that the Saracens from now on fight for the Prophet cmp.

chadzianity is a lie!
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: NuberT on June 20, 2012, 10:16:58 am
second hit should almost bounce off in my opinion, especially on heavy armor, there is not much momentum in that swing.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Dach on June 20, 2012, 10:22:12 am
Me like! Also the other video you posted about ranged being able to disarm is CRAZY!!!!!!!!!! WANT WANT WANT!!!  :mrgreen:

Also add overhead stab for spear like weapon pls!  :oops:
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Moncho on June 20, 2012, 10:22:58 am
Maybe this has been brought up, but could maybe the hilt of the weapon have some stagger and low damage, whereas the end is the one that does a lot of damage?
A bit simulating that when using a polearm (most affected weapons by this), if the enemy gets too close, youll try to grab him and get him to back off to be able to use your weapon decently.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Paul on June 20, 2012, 10:40:01 am
If that feature is going in then polearms would get a significant disadvantage which is ok if compensated correctly. I'd set the blunt damage for hilt hits of head-heavy polearms rather low(15b-ish) so getting into infight is really bad for them.  In compensation I'd make it so that polearms suffer less from the turn limit than 2h because of the wider grip that gives more control over the weapon.

If 2h axes get the hilt hit thingy too than they'd need a buff. I'd really like to have an additional damage type(like pierce-cut or blunt-cut) for them so they don't have to use the same (drawn) cut damage type of gaytana or scimibah.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Rebelyell on June 20, 2012, 10:45:42 am
blunt pierce dmg on bec ith knockdown and some normal dmg ^^
love it

making that future deserve full loom point reset
because you can fuck up soo many peps really hard
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Vibe on June 20, 2012, 10:47:56 am
What if both 2h and Polearms get this:

- for polearms the hilt part does less damage, but blunt
- for 2h the hilt part (and some of the blade close to the hilt) does less damage, but remains cut

This would be a slight buff to polearms compared to 2h.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Xant on June 20, 2012, 10:58:33 am
But it makes no sense for 2h sword to do less damage close to the hilt, if it's the blade?!?!?

USE YOUR BRAIN VIBE PLS
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Vibe on June 20, 2012, 11:00:01 am
But it makes no sense for 2h sword to do less damage close to the hilt, if it's the blade?!?!?

USE YOUR BRAIN VIBE PLS

Ofcourse it does, smaller swing arc = less swing speed at that point of the blade
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Xant on June 20, 2012, 11:01:10 am
Yes, but the blade is closer to you so you can use more force?????????
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Vibe on June 20, 2012, 11:01:38 am
Yes, but the blade is closer to you so you can use more force?????????

i counter with balance argument
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Molly on June 20, 2012, 11:09:05 am
What if both 2h and Polearms get this:

- for polearms the hilt part does less damage, but blunt
- for 2h the hilt part (and some of the blade close to the hilt) does less damage, but remains cut

This would be a slight buff to polearms compared to 2h.
This.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Rebelyell on June 20, 2012, 11:11:36 am
Yes, but the blade is closer to you so you can use more force?????????

no, swords are sharp on end of the blade
chistorical fact
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Xant on June 20, 2012, 11:13:02 am
wat

i counter with balance argument

2h hater
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Rebelyell on June 20, 2012, 11:39:17 am
wat

2h hater

i was 2h for 18 gens?
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Xant on June 20, 2012, 11:41:01 am
Yes, clearly I didn't quote Vibe.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Vodner on June 20, 2012, 11:43:39 am
While this is a cool idea, it would promote rolling high-ath builds for the sole purpose of backpedalling, so that you can keep the enemy near the tip of your weapon. That is one of the least interesting melee playstyles.

Also, this would largely make 'quick' hits - hits early in the animation and close to the opponent - nonviable, which would further slow combat.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Molly on June 20, 2012, 11:45:10 am
Yes, but the blade is closer to you so you can use more force?????????
I'd say get back to the physics course for starters...
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Christo on June 20, 2012, 11:48:00 am
Good idea, but yay, another direct polearm nerf u_u

Hope you guys will balance it out for 2h and other stuff too, they should deal less damage when closer to the hilt as well.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Vibe on June 20, 2012, 11:48:49 am
Good idea, but yay, another direct polearm nerf u_u

Hope you guys will balance it out for 2h and other stuff too, they should deal less damage when closer to the hilt as well.

Christorical fact
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Xant on June 20, 2012, 11:49:18 am
Christorical fact

made me laugh
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Christo on June 20, 2012, 11:49:37 am
chistorical fact


Christorical fact

lol  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: bruce on June 20, 2012, 11:53:04 am
Yes, but the blade is closer to you so you can use more force?????????

How in the world can you use more force? Ever try using a lever? ;)
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Molly on June 20, 2012, 11:55:15 am
I guess Xant is a guy who grabs a hammer as close as possible to the metal head cuz he can use more force that way...

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: gazda on June 20, 2012, 11:55:54 am
wouldnt that feature remove possibility of wepon glancing ?
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: autobus on June 20, 2012, 12:02:09 pm
http://youtu.be/niaMCTPDNeo
xant is an expert you see.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Molly on June 20, 2012, 12:07:28 pm
http://youtu.be/niaMCTPDNeo
xant is an expert you see.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wJKG_xtFeA&feature=watch_response (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wJKG_xtFeA&feature=watch_response)

Figured Xant more like this tbh...
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Horst_Kurmoottaja on June 20, 2012, 12:09:30 pm
So poor old Greataxe will be even more crappy... No thanks!
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Cyclopsided on June 20, 2012, 12:10:56 pm
So poor old Greataxe will be even more crappy... No thanks!
nonono, You're misunderstanding what the capabilities of this are. This isn't some type of nerf to poles or axes. it is a rebalancing, the axe head will do more damage, the haft will do less but blunt..
and it goes for all weapons
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Dezilagel on June 20, 2012, 12:13:06 pm
That's very cool :o

If it's well implemented this could be a really cool feature and offer up tons of possibilities for weapon balancing/different styles of play.


However, if you're trying for this...

Hopefully this will influence all gameplay and move it towards a rock-scissors-paper-ranged-cav style of play like Joker mentioned.

(which the turnnerf seems to suggest  :()

Can't you tell us so that there's ample time to save the women and children?
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Adamar on June 20, 2012, 12:14:08 pm
Not sure how the damage works, but this is awsome. Once again crpg surpasses native.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Miwiw on June 20, 2012, 12:19:36 pm
Not sure about this. However voted Yes so I'd like to test this!
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: gazda on June 20, 2012, 12:19:39 pm
wouldnt that feature remove possibility of wepon glancing ?
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Xant on June 20, 2012, 12:20:54 pm
How in the world can you use more force? Ever try using a lever? ;)

because you push the blade with your other hand, duh
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Owl_Baron on June 20, 2012, 12:27:17 pm
But it makes no sense for 2h sword to do less damage close to the hilt, if it's the blade?!?!?

USE YOUR BRAIN VIBE PLS

this is totally wrong, not just because of the swingspeed, but even most katanas aren't sharp near the hilt....
in vikingr they made it right, so to say....
If i remember right, in reality also greatswords made more blunt dmg then cut, used like the barmace, but this is something that doesn't belong in this thread :wink:

My suggestion: to balance polearms, give them a small stagger when striking with the hilt (full polestagger or knockdown would be too much)) and/or maybe quarterstaff dmg?
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Molly on June 20, 2012, 12:34:49 pm
because you push the blade with your other hand, duh
Basic physics:

F = m x a

F = Force;
m= Mass; which is constant and fixed
a = acceleration; where the angular velocity is the highest at the end of the sword

Conclusion: Most damage is done with the end of the sword, not with the hilt.

It's actually a bit more complex but for this purpose the above is sufficient.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Vibe on June 20, 2012, 12:45:40 pm
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This proves Xant's claim. The mass is the highest close to hilt.

nobel prize pls
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Kansuke on June 20, 2012, 12:46:30 pm
This feature is already in the mod Vikingr and it's a nice change.

Other thing I'd like to see in cRPG: http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,233889.0.html
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Xant on June 20, 2012, 12:48:50 pm
Basic physics:

F = m x a

F = Force;
m= Mass; which is constant and fixed
a = acceleration; where the angular velocity is the highest at the end of the sword

Conclusion: Most damage is done with the end of the sword, not with the hilt.

It's actually a bit more complex but for this purpose the above is sufficient.

Your conclusion is wrong. It only works if you swing the sword and hit them at the end of the swing. Common sense: starting from zero speed when the blade is already in contact with the target (hilt slash), the blade near the hilt will do more damage.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: bosco on June 20, 2012, 12:49:17 pm
(click to show/hide)
This proves Xant's claim. The mass is the highest close to hilt.

nobel prize pls
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Lech on June 20, 2012, 12:51:03 pm
Good feature. Will mass distribution have some impact on the damage model ?

Slightly off-topic, are there any plans for armor value that match the model  (for example on those new brigandines with just padding underneath arms have armor value 25 while torso have armor value 48) ? Or even create more hit areas like 3 for head (top, face and the rest), 4 for torso (upper front, belly, upper back, lower back), 2/3 for arms (forearm with hand, the rest) and 2/3 for legs too.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Molly on June 20, 2012, 12:54:37 pm
Your conclusion is wrong. It only works if you swing the sword and hit them at the end of the swing. Common sense: starting from zero speed when the blade is already in contact with the target (hilt slash), the blade near the hilt will do more damage.
Xant, seriously, please, stop emberassing yourself even more!

Zero speed? So your pushing the hilt against a freaking armor and expect doing any damage? I don't even...
Without any speed you actually wont even do ANY DAMAGE AT ALL... and when you have speed, which you can only have after swinging it already for a certain time, the hilt would do way less damage than the actual blade.
Use a butterknife and press it as hard as you can against your hand. Want me to believe that you cut off your hand like that? Seriously?
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Vibe on June 20, 2012, 12:56:03 pm
Xant, seriously, please, stop emberassing yourself even more!

Zero speed? So your pushing the hilt against a freaking armor and expect doing any damage? I don't even...
Without any speed you actually wont even do ANY DAMAGE AT ALL... and when you have speed, which you can only have after swinging it already for a certain time, the hilt would do way less damage than the actual blade.
Use a butterknife and press it as hard as you can against your hand. Want me to believe that you cut off your hand like that? Seriously?

He is talking about the blade part of the sword that is near the hilt, not the actual hilt
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Molly on June 20, 2012, 12:57:01 pm
He is talking about the blade part of the sword that is near the hilt, not the actual hilt
Same thing. The further away from the hilt, the higher the speed, the higher the damage.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: bosco on June 20, 2012, 01:00:38 pm
This feature is already in the mod Vikingr and it's a nice change.

Other thing I'd like to see in cRPG: http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,233889.0.html

Noice, +1.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Vibe on June 20, 2012, 01:02:43 pm
Same thing. The further away from the hilt, the higher the speed, the higher the damage.

Try cutting cheese with a long knife with a short (hand size) hilt. Would it cut better if you pressed (or swinged with great speed) with the end (top most) of the blade or the part that is close to the hilt?
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: chadz on June 20, 2012, 01:04:35 pm
I guess that depends if you put the blade on the cheese, then start using force, or if you wildly swing at the cheese from every direction.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: bosco on June 20, 2012, 01:06:18 pm
And, of course, what kind of cheese it is that you are attacking.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Xant on June 20, 2012, 01:07:27 pm
Try cutting cheese with a long knife with a short (hand size) hilt. Would it cut better if you pressed (or swinged with great speed) with the end (top most) of the blade or the part that is close to the hilt?

Yes. Apply pressure to the blade near the hilt first, see how it cuts. Then try to apply pressure to the blade near the point.

Shocking conclusion: The blade near the point won't penetrate the delicious cheese more than 1cm.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Vibe on June 20, 2012, 01:07:54 pm
I guess that depends if you put the blade on the cheese, then start using force, or if you wildly swing at the cheese from every direction.

(click to show/hide)

I edited before I saw your reply :(

PS: parmesan cheese in this case, since it's more armor-like compared to others and needs more force to cut. But even if it was gouda I doubt you could cut it as deep with the end of the blade than with the close to hilt blade.

I would test but I love gouda and don't want to destroy it.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: SirCymro_Crusader on June 20, 2012, 01:09:02 pm
What about grating?
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Ninja_Khorin on June 20, 2012, 01:09:23 pm
Also, stabbing with the hilt applies more force than stabbing with the edge(if you diregard the surface) because stabbing with the point requires that you apply forced just to keep the blade straight and not deflect while if stabbing with the hilt, it doesn't happen as easily.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: chadz on June 20, 2012, 01:14:55 pm
parmesan cheese in this case, since it's more armor-like compared to others and needs more force to cut. But even if it was gouda I doubt you could cut it as deep with the end of the blade than with the close to hilt blade.

that has a different reason though. If you had a perfectly sharpened knife, it shouldn't matter. However, knifes get used on the tip way more often than close to the hilt, where they are therefore sharper. That's why you might get that impression. Just check with any sharp knife you find in your household.

If you just use pure pressure, it shouldn't matter if you cut it close to the tip or close to the hilt. However, if you swing it, that's entirely different.

So who's calling mythbusters. This won't end in here.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Xant on June 20, 2012, 01:16:08 pm
I think this may be beyond the scope of even Mythbusters.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Vibe on June 20, 2012, 01:19:46 pm
But let's say you have a really big piece of cheese, about half meter high. Let's say that once you make contact with the cheese you would be cutting for one more second. In the first case, hitting with the end of the blade, you would cut less deep than if you hit with the blade near the hilt, assuming you use same force to swing and cut. (aka you would need to apply more pressure to actually cut after you hit it)

Just as is the case with plate and 2 handers, I seriously doubt that two hander speed and weight alone is enough to seriously damage a man, you need to apply extra pressure once you hit the dude.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: bosco on June 20, 2012, 01:22:07 pm
We should ask these guys to test it out with their next product.  :wink:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hfLZozBVpM
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: _GTX_ on June 20, 2012, 01:25:08 pm
We need to spam mythbusters about this matter, we need some pros.

Everybody up for spamming mythbusters? xD
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Grumbs on June 20, 2012, 01:26:21 pm
Imagine playing golf with a golf club half the size as normal. Which will hit the ball furthest?
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: SirCymro_Crusader on June 20, 2012, 01:30:09 pm
Imagine playing golf with a golf club half the size as normal. Which will hit the ball furthest?

Golf is all about speed, contact and power. Dooesnt matter which club youd use, if you hit the ball at the same speed and power it would travel the same distance.

Plus whos to say a normal golf club is the normal size, size depends on the player you cant have a 7 foot golf player using a normal club now.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Xant on June 20, 2012, 01:37:27 pm
FOOLS

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Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Grumbs on June 20, 2012, 01:39:12 pm
You could, but its about mechanical advantage isn't it? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanical_advantage

If I want to apply the most force I don't use a small stick, and if I twat someone on the head with the end I could crush his skull, hit him near my hands and I might just hurt him. You can get more momentum and more force at the end.

Or is this troll science? My brain hurts
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Vibe on June 20, 2012, 01:42:32 pm
You could, but its about mechanical advantage isn't it? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanical_advantage

If I want to apply the most force I don't use a small stick, and if I twat someone on the head with the end I could crush his skull, hit him near my hands and I might just hurt him. You can get more momentum and more force at the end.

Or is this troll science? My brain hurts

You get more speed but that doesn't mean more force. F = m * a

a is higher at the tip of the sword, but the mass peak is close to the hilt.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Xant on June 20, 2012, 01:42:47 pm
Or is this troll science? My brain hurts

at least the pain isn't spread over a very large area
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Molly on June 20, 2012, 01:43:31 pm
We basicly have 2 cases, right?

Swinging sword till impact and sword pressed against armor.

Swinging sword clearly damages more the further the impact is UP on the blade.
Pressed sword against armor won't do any noticable damage at all in reality. Maybe scratching the plate a little but that's it. I can't believe that you really think you are strong enough to do more than just a dent into some plate by ONLY using the muscular strength of a human. The whole point about a sword is the use of angular speed to multiply the energy a human body is able to produce.
Otherwise they could just get a big rock and start slamming those at each other but... well, they didnt.
And hitting with the hilt of the sword while swinging is doing less damage than hitting with the tip and simply because the speed of the hilt is way lower than the speed of the tip.
The "kept pressure on impact" sucks too cuz there is something called "inelastic collision" which applies here for the most part. Just do an experiment: hit with a normal hammer on a big stone and tell me afterwards if you were able to keep up any pressure AFTER the impact. Oww, and post some pictures of your hand after half an hour after doing this "experiment". Gonna be fun to see...

This will be my last post on this matter cuz I get the impression that some people just don't wanna accept reality (simple physics at this point). They are probably those kids in school who sucked at math but were always really good in drawing and dancing. Pointless discussion when the other side tries to argument by using examples of cheese...  :?
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Christo on June 20, 2012, 01:44:29 pm
at least the pain isn't spread over a very large area
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Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: TurmoilTom on June 20, 2012, 01:45:04 pm
Or is this troll science? My brain hurts

At least it isn't Rocket Surgery. I heard that's pretty tough.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Christo on June 20, 2012, 01:45:52 pm
Rocket Surgery.

O.o

I just imagined that.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Xant on June 20, 2012, 01:47:05 pm
We basicly have 2 cases, right?

Swinging sword till impact and sword pressed against armor.

Swinging sword clearly damages more the further the impact is UP on the blade.
Pressed sword against armor won't do any noticable damage at all in reality. Maybe scratching the plate a little but that's it. I can't believe that you really think you are strong enough to do more than just a dent into some plate by ONLY using the muscular strength of a human. The whole point about a sword is the use of angular speed to multiply the energy a human body is able to produce.
Otherwise they could just get a big rock and start slamming those at each other but... well, they didnt.
And hitting with the hilt of the sword while swinging is doing less damage than hitting with the tip and simply because the speed of the hilt is way lower than the speed of the tip.
The "kept pressure on impact" sucks too cuz there is something called "inelastic collision" which applies here for the most part. Just do an experiment: hit with a normal hammer on a big stone and tell me afterwards if you were able to keep up any pressure AFTER the impact. Oww, and post some pictures of your hand after half an hour after doing this "experiment". Gonna be fun to see...

This will be my last post on this matter cuz I get the impression that some people just don't wanna accept reality (simple physics at this point). They are probably those kids in school who sucked at math but were always really good in drawing and dancing. Pointless discussion when the other side tries to argument by using examples of cheese...  :?

the amount of red herring fallacies in this post is staggering
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: cmp on June 20, 2012, 01:50:24 pm
Guys can you please move your very interesting discussion to the Physics forum? This one is about people worshiping me.
(click to show/hide)

If this means fps drop then no.

Damage calculation is done entirely on the server, and even then it's ridiculously cheap compared to other tasks. There wouldn't be any FPS drop because of this.

While this is a cool idea, it would promote rolling high-ath builds for the sole purpose of backpedalling, so that you can keep the enemy near the tip of your weapon. That is one of the least interesting melee playstyles.

Not if we give melee weapons the same backpedaling penalty as ranged (reduced backward speed while readying and releasing).

If it's well implemented this could be a really cool feature and offer up tons of possibilities for weapon balancing/different styles of play.


However, if you're trying for this...

(which the turnnerf seems to suggest  :()

I wasn't really going for that, no. I certainly don't mind more teamplay, but I find rock-paper-scissor too much restrictive and also boring.

This feature is already in the mod Vikingr and it's a nice change.

Sort of, although in Vikingr you only get a damage reduction. That can be easily modded in, while changing damage type requires work on the engine side.

If 2h axes get the hilt hit thingy too than they'd need a buff. I'd really like to have an additional damage type(like pierce-cut or blunt-cut) for them so they don't have to use the same (drawn) cut damage type of gaytana or scimibah.

Since this feature would probably require a complete item rebalance anyway, it might be a good time to change the damage system overall and introduce split damage types.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on June 20, 2012, 01:50:35 pm
Looks like you would do some blunt damage with the shaft of the weapon rather than the same damage as the bladed end

Looks like a pretty neat feature, but it might be a bit of a nerf for polearms

It will be but all you have to do is jack the dmg up for pole arms. That way you get a sweet sweet pay off for actually landing the shot. It will make them even more of a support weapon except for those among us with the ability to use kicks and chambers, but still awesome job hope it works :D

Also when will see full scale clang integration?
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Vibe on June 20, 2012, 01:52:55 pm
We basicly have 2 cases, right?

Swinging sword till impact and sword pressed against armor.

Swinging sword clearly damages more the further the impact is UP on the blade.
Pressed sword against armor won't do any noticable damage at all in reality. Maybe scratching the plate a little but that's it. I can't believe that you really think you are strong enough to do more than just a dent into some plate by ONLY using the muscular strength of a human. The whole point about a sword is the use of angular speed to multiply the energy a human body is able to produce.
Otherwise they could just get a big rock and start slamming those at each other but... well, they didnt.
And hitting with the hilt of the sword while swinging is doing less damage than hitting with the tip and simply because the speed of the hilt is way lower than the speed of the tip.
The "kept pressure on impact" sucks too cuz there is something called "inelastic collision" which applies here for the most part. Just do an experiment: hit with a normal hammer on a big stone and tell me afterwards if you were able to keep up any pressure AFTER the impact. Oww, and post some pictures of your hand after half an hour after doing this "experiment". Gonna be fun to see...

This will be my last post on this matter cuz I get the impression that some people just don't wanna accept reality (simple physics at this point). They are probably those kids in school who sucked at math but were always really good in drawing and dancing. Pointless discussion when the other side tries to argument by using examples of cheese...  :?

lol wut, so basically what you're saying is that it does not matter how strong you are when you swing a sword (unless ofcourse it's a really heavy sword). How much additional force you put in when the sword hits the target matters.

Oh also, if you hit with just the tip at high speed, what do you think will happen? The tip will just bounce off and you're hand will keep on moving forward causing you to drop the sword in the worst case. The hammer experiment suggestion is retarded at best.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: [ptx] on June 20, 2012, 01:53:13 pm
Since this feature would probably require a complete item rebalance anyway, it might be a good time to change the damage system overall and introduce split damage types.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Thomek on June 20, 2012, 01:54:47 pm
If the sword is perfectly and ideally stiff, the energy released at impact with be the same 1cm from the fulcrum and 10m from the fulcrum.

The speed is higher at the tip, but the inertia is lower, and vice versa close to the fulcrum. The energy is the same.

Without knowing how the physics of an armor hit works, a hit closer to the fulcrum would have more of a "push" effect, and the tip more of a "cut" effect.

Something about the fibers in the armor having time to adjust to the sudden pressure because of their mass and inertia?

If that feature is going in then polearms would get a significant disadvantage which is ok if compensated correctly. I'd set the blunt damage for hilt hits of head-heavy polearms rather low(15b-ish) so getting into infight is really bad for them.  In compensation I'd make it so that polearms suffer less from the turn limit than 2h because of the wider grip that gives more control over the weapon.

If 2h axes get the hilt hit thingy too than they'd need a buff. I'd really like to have an additional damage type(like pierce-cut or blunt-cut) for them so they don't have to use the same (drawn) cut damage type of gaytana or scimibah.

Paul, long weapons are overused and OP for too many reasons already. They should be more clumsy, and the QQ'ing DGS duelists should go for something more suitable for dueling like longswords.

"QQ Combat is so slow, everything is so nerfed!!" -Said the guy who brings a giant-ass sword to EU3..
Fast, intense dueling combat is perfectly possible in cRPG already, problem is they all insist on using DGS and wearing Kuyak+ to do it.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: TurmoilTom on June 20, 2012, 01:55:25 pm
O.o

I just imagined that.

How did you imagine it? What was it like? The first time I thought about it, I imagined a dude trying to repair a nuclear missile with a scalpel.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Tzar on June 20, 2012, 01:56:50 pm
I wasn't really going for that, no. I certainly don't mind more teamplay, but I find rock-paper-scissor too much restrictive and also boring.

Thank god
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Vibe on June 20, 2012, 01:56:54 pm
If the sword is perfectly and ideally stiff, the energy released at impact with be the same 1cm from the fulcrum and 10m from the fulcrum.

The speed is higher at the tip, but the inertia is lower, and vice versa close to the fulcrum. The energy is the same.

Without knowing how the physics of an armor hit works, a hit closer to the fulcrum would have more of a "push" effect, and the tip more of a "cut" effect.

Something about the fibers in the armor having time to adjust to the sudden pressure because of their mass and inertia?

Yes basically this. Completely viable to swing a large sword and hit with the tip if you're against a naked guy, you'll still cut him (you will have speed but less force behind the swing). If you're up against plate you're better of getting the impact closer to the hilt.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Xant on June 20, 2012, 01:58:29 pm
Stop it guys, cmp will get mad because he doesn't understand cheese analogies
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Vibe on June 20, 2012, 01:59:37 pm
or maybe his lover is a gouda and was recently cut
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: cmp on June 20, 2012, 02:00:13 pm
Stop it guys, cmp will get mad because he doesn't understand cheese analogies

                 ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็        ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Thovex on June 20, 2012, 02:00:34 pm






ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็        ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็


Suddenly my browser went like: THIS PAGE IS WRITTEN IN THAI WANT TO TRANSLATE?
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: [ptx] on June 20, 2012, 02:01:15 pm
How did you imagine it? What was it like? The first time I thought about it, I imagined a dude trying to repair a nuclear missile with a scalpel.
Rocket surgery (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSnFEbr-Dr4#t=2m08s)
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Xant on June 20, 2012, 02:02:30 pm
                 ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็        ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็

HOW DID YOU DO THAT WHY CANT I MAKE MY SIG DO THAT

hor=cmpxchg8b link=topic=34371.msg518042#msg518042 date=1340193613]
                 ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็        ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็hor=cmpxchg8b link=topic=34371.msg518042#msg518042 date=1340193613]
                 ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็        ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็hor=cmpxchg8b link=topic=34371.msg518042#msg518042 date=1340193613]
                 ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็        ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็hor=cmpxchg8b link=topic=34371.msg518042#msg518042 date=1340193613]
                 ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็        ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็hor=cmpxchg8b link=topic=34371.msg518042#msg518042 date=1340193613]
                 ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็        ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็hor=cmpxchg8b link=topic=34371.msg518042#msg518042 date=1340193613]
                 ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็        ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็hor=cmpxchg8b link=topic=34371.msg518042#msg518042 date=1340193613]
                 ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็        ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Vodner on June 20, 2012, 02:02:55 pm
It will be an interesting experiment. If combat ends up with a higher skill ceiling then it will be good. If combat ends up slower/more predictable, then it will be less so.

The important thing is to make sure it increases the depth of the game.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Christo on June 20, 2012, 02:03:04 pm
Rocket surgery (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSnFEbr-Dr4#t=2m08s)

Memories.

I loved the multi load rocket madness.  8-)
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Kafein on June 20, 2012, 02:06:03 pm
Anything, anything, ANYTHING that can nerf hiltslashing is good.

Do it. Now.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Thomek on June 20, 2012, 02:06:28 pm
It will be an interesting experiment. If combat ends up with a higher skill ceiling then it will be good. If combat ends up slower/more predictable, then it will be less so.

The important thing is to make sure it increases the depth of the game.

Yep.
This idea is great as it puts in another tactical element for the polearmer and his opponent to play with. How it will work/feel in practice is another matter. If it feels random and none is able to master it, it's of course not good.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: TurmoilTom on June 20, 2012, 02:08:07 pm

















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็ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็ส็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็็
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Thovex on June 20, 2012, 02:08:35 pm
Yep.
This idea is great as it puts in another tactical element for the polearmer and his opponent to play with. How it will work/feel in practice is another matter. If it feels random and none is able to master it, it's of course not good.

Time to get back to kicking then 'eh?
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Prinz_Karl on June 20, 2012, 02:09:08 pm
Threads getting up to 10 pages before you even see it these days.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Paul on June 20, 2012, 02:13:12 pm
Hitting with the tip of the sword does the most potential damage because it is the fastest moving part. But only if your grip can withstand the counterforce. That's the difference between the sword, where the center of mass is close to the hilt and a great long axe with its close to the head center of mass. Hitting a hard target with the axe (head) gives a better chance to maintain the grip than hitting with the sword tip.

On impact the natural fulcrum is much closer to the target for the axe and the axeman has a long lever to withstand the reactio. The swordman only has a short lever to withstand the force and hitting a metal target with the tip will most likely just bounce.

On the other hand if the sword user decides to land the blow closer to the center mass of his sword then he will have less problems with the counterforce because the lever length between center mass and impact point got shorter. But the speed and thus power* of the blow would be a bit weaker. So against a lightly armored target I'd use the tip and against metal armor going closer to the hilt might be better.

A hilt hit for the axeman might be problematic because if the center of mass is actually behind the target and the victim acts as the fulcrum then short handle section between grip and target is the lever length the axeman has to stop axehead from moving. If its short and the head fast&heavy, then the attacker could even lose hold of his weapon. That's why I'd give head heavy weapons only a small blunt damage (compared to normal damage) for hilt hits, probably different to balanced weapons like spears or staves.


Edit:
*
With power of the blow I mean the ability of the weapon to destroy tissue and not neccesarily the kinetic energy. Let's imagine a sword that is held by a fixed grip that can withstand unlimited force and then swings it against a target. Two cases, first hits with the tip and second with middle of the blade. The swords come to a full stop and becasue of the ideal grip all of the kinetic energy of the swung sword is transfered into the target. This energy is the same for both cases BUT the faster moving tip can do more actual damage while the slower middle will spend a bigger part of the energy on accelerating(pushing) the target instead on tissue damage.
Crappy comparision: getting hit by a 5 km/h truck or a 50km/h car. Last hurts more while the first just pushes you away.

Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Lech on June 20, 2012, 02:21:13 pm
Yep.
This idea is great as it puts in another tactical element for the polearmer and his opponent to play with. How it will work/feel in practice is another matter. If it feels random and none is able to master it, it's of course not good.

Maybe it feel random, but i'd rather have such randomness than random number generator.

Main problem with it lies in the fact that you have little control over your weapon in m&b (irl you can control the swing and even adjust it after you started the move, here you are stuck to the single attack pattern).
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Thomek on June 20, 2012, 02:23:21 pm
blablabla

Agreed.

Like I would have any say in this anyway.. :D
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: bruce on June 20, 2012, 02:29:55 pm
Paul is right.

Anyway: if you hit someone at the very start of the swing (eg, you had 5cm space to start a swing), you will hit with much much less force. This has little to do with distance, you simply have much less time to apply force and accelerate your weapon. This is more important the longer the weapon is, because a longer weapon has a higher moment of inertia; even if the overall force is the same, the velocity is much lower, and no cutting will happen.

Xant and Vibe are wrong because they are not considering the time during which you are imparting force (accelerating) the sword. The sword (or anything you swing, for that matter), regardless of which section of the sword you hit with, will hit with much less force if you have less time to accelerate it. If someone is pressed against you, all you are doing is pushing them with a sword. Regardless of which point of the sword you are doing this with, it's not going to cut anything remotely hard.

Hitting near the center of mass is only better in the case you had equal time to accelerate the sword.

Ideally, for maximum damage, you would want to hit at the time the sword has reached the maximum speed; hitting "early" with any part of the weapon is going to be much less effective.


If you don't live in a city, grab an axe. Try a swing with 5cm space and a normal swing, and see the difference.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Xant on June 20, 2012, 02:37:04 pm
Paul is right.

Anyway: if you hit someone at the very start of the swing (eg, you had 5cm space to start a swing), you will hit with much much less force. This has little to do with distance, you simply have much less time to apply force and accelerate your weapon. This is more important the longer the weapon is, because a longer weapon has a higher moment of inertia; even if the overall force is the same, the velocity is much lower, and no cutting will happen.

Xant and Vibe are wrong because they are not considering the time during which you are imparting force (accelerating) the sword. The sword (or anything you swing, for that matter), regardless of which section of the sword you hit with, will hit with much less force if you have less time to accelerate it. If someone is pressed against you, all you are doing is pushing them with a sword. Regardless of which point of the sword you are doing this with, it's not going to cut anything remotely hard.

Hitting near the center of mass is only better in the case you had equal time to accelerate the sword.

Ideally, for maximum damage, you would want to hit at the time the sword has reached the maximum speed; hitting "early" with any part of the weapon is going to be much less effective.


If you don't live in a city, grab an axe. Try a swing with 5cm space and a normal swing, and see the difference.

what

No one... was suggesting that swinging from 5 cm is better than a normal swing.

Also what Paul said just supports what me and Vibe were saying.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Grumbs on June 20, 2012, 02:51:41 pm
What if both 2h and Polearms get this:

- for polearms the hilt part does less damage, but blunt
- for 2h the hilt part (and some of the blade close to the hilt) does less damage, but remains cut

This would be a slight buff to polearms compared to 2h.

But it makes no sense for 2h sword to do less damage close to the hilt, if it's the blade?!?!?

USE YOUR BRAIN VIBE PLS

Pretty sure Paul made the point that its complicated and depends on certain factors, including armour of the target. The tip has the highest possible damage, but you must be able to withstand the counter force and not have the weapon pivot back. Against high armour you might prefer to hit towards centre of mass
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: bruce on June 20, 2012, 02:54:01 pm
The sooner a sword connects to the target, up to a certain point, the less time you had to impart force to your sword and accelerate it. That (and hitting with the hilt itself, which is bad regardless since you hit sooner* and it is behind center of mass) is the why hiltslashing in its crpgesque form is silly. Ideally you'd want to have someone in front of you; that way you can apply force properly when you swing at him.

*assuming your sword has a crossguard

Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Xant on June 20, 2012, 02:57:29 pm
Pretty sure Paul made the point that its complicated and depends on certain factors, including armour of the target. The tip has the highest possible damage, but you must be able to withstand the counter force and not have the weapon pivot back. Against high armour you might prefer to hit towards centre of mass

Notice how my quoted post says "less damage" not "it should do more damage closer to the hilt". Yes, the tip is good against light armor. If you have a proper swing to back it up. Which is not what was being discussed, either.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Lemmy_Winks on June 20, 2012, 03:00:02 pm
Hitting with the tip of the sword does the most potential damage because it is the fastest moving part. But only if your grip can withstand the counterforce. That's the difference between the sword, where the center of mass is close to the hilt and a great long axe with its close to the head center of mass. Hitting a hard target with the axe (head) gives a better chance to maintain the grip than hitting with the sword tip.

On impact the natural fulcrum is much closer to the target for the axe and the axeman has a long lever to withstand the reactio. The swordman only has a short lever to withstand the force and hitting a metal target with the tip will most likely just bounce.

On the other hand if the sword user decides to land the blow closer to the center mass of his sword then he will have less problems with the counterforce because the lever length between center mass and impact point got shorter. But the speed and thus power* of the blow would be a bit weaker. So against a lightly armored target I'd use the tip and against metal armor going closer to the hilt might be better.

A hilt hit for the axeman might be problematic because if the center of mass is actually behind the target and the victim acts as the fulcrum then short handle section between grip and target is the lever length the axeman has to stop axehead from moving. If its short and the head fast&heavy, then the attacker could even lose hold of his weapon. That's why I'd give head heavy weapons only a small blunt damage (compared to normal damage) for hilt hits, probably different to balanced weapons like spears or staves.


Edit:
*
With power of the blow I mean the ability of the weapon to destroy tissue and not neccesarily the kinetic energy. Let's imagine a sword that is held by a fixed grip that can withstand unlimited force and then swings it against a target. Two cases, first hits with the tip and second with middle of the blade. The swords come to a full stop and becasue of the ideal grip all of the kinetic energy of the swung sword is transfered into the target. This energy is the same for both cases BUT the faster moving tip can do more actual damage while the slower middle will spend a bigger part of the energy on accelerating(pushing) the target instead on tissue damage.
Crappy comparision: getting hit by a 5 km/h truck or a 50km/h car. Last hurts more while the first just pushes you away.

Hes saying if your using a long axe or something of that nature, and you hit the target while the target is close enough to u so that you end up hitting with the wooden shaft and not the head of the axe, yes you will do blunt damage but it will be much less than the normal cut damage the axe would typically do. So this is in effect, a nerf to any weapon that has a long shaft, mostly pole arms. Its a nerf but it makes things more realistic, it in part solves the problem of doing full damage to someone whose 5 inches infront of ur face with a 8 foot weapon that has the axe head or whatever on the end of that weapon. The video posted is somewhat misleading, should have one shot of killing with axe head and one shot being kiled by the shaft so they can see how much less damage it does.

For the differences in the tip / middle of the sword hits, has the potentially to greatly buff heavy armor or make swords somewhat obsolete. I can see people backpedaling in heavy armor so they are only getting hit by the tip and so the weapon just bounces off or does little damage.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Tindel on June 20, 2012, 03:05:50 pm
Too many nerds in this thread who has no actual experience in using tools.
Cutting wood, sledgehammer/hammer work. This will teach you all you need to know about applying force
A real man doesnt need to discuss how to apply force with a tool in his hand,   he knows.......
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Xant on June 20, 2012, 03:16:18 pm
Too many nerds in this thread who has no actual experience in using tools.
Cutting wood, sledgehammer/hammer work. This will teach you all you need to know about applying force
A real man doesnt need to discuss how to apply force with a tool in his hand,   he knows.......

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Kafein on June 20, 2012, 03:41:02 pm
Gotta love the heart smileys
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Joker86 on June 20, 2012, 03:47:37 pm
Well, I have no clue of physics, I dropped physics in school with a 5 (in a system from 1 to 6 where 1 is best, and 4 the minimum requirement to pass something), but if I would try to hack through the mailed shoulder of someone, I would use an overhead swing to hit it with the last third of the blade (where the tip is), I would NOT try to hit him with the hilt third.

Besides of this, without any further information (or knowledge about physics) I would say that Xant's/Vibe's graphics a few pages ago are wrong, because the fulcrum is not at the hilt. You swing a sword, it's not jerking off, you don't do it with your wrist! Actually swinging a sword should have several fulcrums, but the most important one should be the elbow or the shoulder. Which already renders the graphics useless.

(click to show/hide)

Could be that I am entirely wrong and should shut the fuck up about matters of physics, but from what I know from reality, and from the simply thought why weapon length was always such an important factor, although you claim that the end does much less damage than the hilt, and the fact that some two handed sword were completely dull at the hilt to give the wielder a better grip (which would mean they make the "best" part of the sword dull to be able to use an inferior part better), I say most kinetic energy is tranferred close to the tip.

Edit: I think the confusion is about certain definitions. I think the worst hits are dealt with the last third of the weapon, but most "pressure" can be given by the hilt third. That's why you try to block hits with this part of the weapon, instead of the tip, because the leverage would work against you. But swinging is a completely different matter, there the leverage works on your side.

I think the "bouncing off" discussion is another important part. If the blade bounces off, it means it delivered all energy directed into the hit direction. But close to the hilt it will not bounce off, but keep pressing against the target, which means it did not deliver its entire energy. Compared to the fact that during a swing there will be more energy in the tip due to leverage, a hit with the tip should do the trick.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: bruce on June 20, 2012, 03:58:07 pm
The picture is wrong insofar as the sword is treated as a wheelbarrow (a real world example of a type 2 lever depicted in the second picture).

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Zisa on June 20, 2012, 04:53:06 pm
Wonder if those medieval dudes had a weapon equivalent of a 1 inch punch.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Tzar on June 20, 2012, 05:52:01 pm
Just to be perfectly clear you are thinking about buffing backpedal/S key Heroes amarite cmp :?:

Or are you also going/have to implement some sort of penalty for the folks who Back pedal  :?:

Or is it just the face hug crowd who gets the middle finger  :lol:

Sry havent been lurking the forums in my Diablo 3 coma  :P
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Moncho on June 20, 2012, 05:57:35 pm

Not if we give melee weapons the same backpedaling penalty as ranged (reduced backward speed while readying and releasing).
From page 9 of this topic:  http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,34371.120.html (http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,34371.120.html)
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Tzar on June 20, 2012, 05:58:38 pm
Ok so good was just worried that he didnt think bout that this dear leader cmp is a smart one.

Dear leader makes no mistakes.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Leshma on June 20, 2012, 06:01:46 pm
Backpedaling should suffer. Lamest move ever.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Grumbs on June 20, 2012, 06:10:49 pm
Face hugging left spam shielders/agi 2 handers could become a problem with these changes.

On paper it looks like a cool idea, but the amount of balancing required looks insane
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Leshma on June 20, 2012, 06:14:19 pm
You can always kick facehugger.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: oprah_winfrey on June 20, 2012, 06:14:51 pm
S keying should have a small chance of getting knocked down, due to tripping. :D
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: cmp on June 20, 2012, 06:18:12 pm
Face hugging left spam shielders/agi 2 handers could become a problem with these changes.

I was thinking of buffing kick range slightly, turning rate as well if needed.
Basically facehugging should be extremely risky.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Leshma on June 20, 2012, 06:18:41 pm
That would be awesome but there's a problem with changes like that.

People who cry "you dumbed down the game". If we could shut their mouths somehow, game would become even better because devs wouldn't have to deal with people who qq after every single change.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: cmp on June 20, 2012, 06:20:55 pm
That would be awesome but there's a problem with changes like that.

People who cry "you dumbed down the game".

Where is the problem?
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Overdriven on June 20, 2012, 06:21:05 pm
S keying should have a small chance of getting knocked down, due to tripping. :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=_ygRholyh5g#t=99s

Well placed rocks  :)
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Lech on June 20, 2012, 06:21:40 pm
I was thinking of buffing kick range slightly, turning rate as well if needed.
Basically facehugging should be extremely risky.

It already is against decent enemies. Most people just don't know how to use it, making it even easier and more forgiving for 2h and polearms isn't best option.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: oprah_winfrey on June 20, 2012, 06:22:04 pm
I was thinking of buffing kick range slightly, turning rate as well if needed.
Basically facehugging should be extremely risky.

If you nerf facehugging and S keying and pokes, what are we suppose to do, stand still 3 ft apart and just take turns swinging and blocking?
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Zisa on June 20, 2012, 06:29:09 pm
Ok so good was just worried that he didnt think bout that this dear leader cmp is a smart one.

Dear leader makes no mistakes.
No, he makes mistakes, he just learns and corrects them, making him smarter then you think.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Joker86 on June 20, 2012, 06:30:31 pm
I would like to see how daggers get highly increased damage and no hilt penalty. That way you could have a viable facehugging weapon and yet another class (dagger and shield).

 :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: IG_Saint on June 20, 2012, 06:34:01 pm
I was thinking of buffing kick range slightly, turning rate as well if needed.
Basically facehugging should be extremely risky.

If this is implemented I hope you'll finally remove blocking while kicking as wel. That would at least make it a high risk/high reward, rather than the high reward, not much risk at all, that kicking is now.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Grumbs on June 20, 2012, 06:36:11 pm
Maybe holding a shield and doing fast left attacks should come with risk too? That shield forcefield is long overdue for some balancing
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: cmp on June 20, 2012, 06:40:46 pm
If this is implemented I hope you'll finally remove blocking while kicking as wel. That would at least make it a high risk/high reward, rather than the high reward, not much risk at all, that kicking is now.

Yeah, I might do that.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Thovex on June 20, 2012, 06:42:40 pm
Yeah, I might do that.

Yyyeeeessss
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Zisa on June 20, 2012, 06:48:21 pm
If this is implemented I hope you'll finally remove blocking while kicking as wel. That would at least make it a high risk/high reward, rather than the high reward, not much risk at all, that kicking is now.
Sounds like it would be extremely punitive to accomplished pole kickers.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Thovex on June 20, 2012, 06:57:44 pm
Yeah, I might do that.

Also when are the 32+ Retirements coming?  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Leshma on June 20, 2012, 06:58:18 pm
If you nerf facehugging and S keying and pokes, what are we suppose to do, stand still 3 ft apart and just take turns swinging and blocking?

That's the point of this game, if you haven't noticed.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: _GTX_ on June 20, 2012, 07:02:58 pm
That's the point of this game, if you haven't noticed.

Thats what this game is becoming, a game with no depth or posibilities, only limits.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: _GTX_ on June 20, 2012, 07:04:00 pm
If this is implemented I hope you'll finally remove blocking while kicking as wel. That would at least make it a high risk/high reward, rather than the high reward, not much risk at all, that kicking is now.

Couldent agree more, i never used that trick. Such a cheap way of getting past people's blocks in my opinion.

Edit: Fuck double post -.-, my mistake!
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Zisa on June 20, 2012, 07:17:44 pm
_GTX_ ...
those two posts in a row make me laugh.. I wonder why.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: cmp on June 20, 2012, 07:22:35 pm
Glad I wasn't the only one to notice. :lol:
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Vodner on June 20, 2012, 07:27:27 pm
Quote
That's the point of this game, if you haven't noticed.
There is absolutely no depth if the game is played that way. Blocking would be trivially easy.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Thovex on June 20, 2012, 07:28:31 pm
_GTX_ ...
those two posts in a row make me laugh.. I wonder why.

Even I got that.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Phew on June 20, 2012, 07:28:51 pm
Thats what this game is becoming, a game with no depth or posibilities, only limits.

That's why we need the stamina bar. Enable every trick in the book (spinthrust, hiltslash, kicks, spam, feints, holds, lolstab, shield bash, etc), just limit them with a stamina mechanic. If you want to beat that super skilled player, bust out all your tricks, but be prepared to be killed by a peasant afterwards because you are so exhausted.

Stamina bar would also open up new tactics, like playing defensively to wear your opponent out, faking fatigue then going berserk, peasants could be actually be useful by making top players waste stamina so their teammates could get the kill, etc.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Vodner on June 20, 2012, 07:33:22 pm
That's why we need the stamina bar. Enable every trick in the book (spinthrust, hiltslash, kicks, spam, feints, holds, lolstab, shield bash, etc), just limit them with a stamina mechanic. If you want to beat that super skilled player, bust out all your tricks, but be prepared to be killed by a peasant afterwards because you are so exhausted.
Why nerf individual skill?
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Phew on June 20, 2012, 07:37:48 pm
Why nerf individual skill?

If anything, stamina would enhance individual skill, since stamina management becomes yet another skill to master. If you ever played Dark Age of Camelot back in the day, it had an endurance bar, and there were all kinds of interesting tactics to make your opponent waste endurance while conserving yours for the decisive moment. Not the same genre of game, but my point remains.

The mauler that spams 100 overheads in a row isn't tapping into some advanced individual skill. Make him decide how to most efficiently expend his energy, and you start to separate the wheat from the chaff.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Vodner on June 20, 2012, 07:40:43 pm
If anything, stamina would enhance individual skill, since stamina management becomes yet another skill to master.
It would eliminate the ability of a single player to kill a lot of enemies in a short period of time. I think that is something that should be encouraged.

I would much rather see depth added by enabling more tricks in the same vein as hiltslashing, spingstabs, etc. A lot more. Enough that it would take years for players to polish all of them to the degree we see now.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Leshma on June 20, 2012, 07:47:17 pm
There is absolutely no depth if the game is played that way. Blocking would be trivially easy.

As long there are hold attacks, feints and kicks blocking won't be easy as many like to think. Blocking seems easy when two truly experienced players are fighting. But that's duel server issue.

Main point of this game are battle and siege gamemodes and everything is balanced for those two gamemodes. Duel, dtv and rageball are nice additions but main gamemodes shouldn't suffer because of them.

On EU1 it's still possible to kill many people without blocking. You just need a long weapons (greatsword), agi build and good footwork. Which menas that, blocking on battle isn't OP as many of you think.

And I'm able to hit even the best blockers at least once during 30 second duel. There aren't perfect blockers. Problem are average amounts of HP and armor we have and low lethality of most cut weapons.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: oprah_winfrey on June 20, 2012, 07:52:17 pm
As long there are hold attacks, feints and kicks blocking won't be easy as many like to think. Blocking seems easy when two truly experienced players are fighting. But that's duel server issue.

Main point of this game are battle and siege gamemodes and everything is balanced for those two gamemodes. Duel, dtv and rageball are nice additions but main gamemodes shouldn't suffer because of them.

On EU1 it's still possible to kill many people without blocking. You just need a long weapons (greatsword), agi build and good footwork. Which menas that, blocking on battle isn't OP as many of you think.

And I'm able to hit even the best blockers at least once during 30 second duel. There aren't perfect blockers. Problem are average amounts of HP and armor we have and low lethality of most cut weapons.

I think Saul is talking about if s key and face hugging were also nerfed...as in 2 people fighting stationary.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Vodner on June 20, 2012, 07:53:08 pm
Quote
As long there are hold attacks, feints and kicks blocking won't be easy as many like to think. Blocking seems easy when two truly experienced players are fighting. But that's duel server issue.
It is trivially easy to block if both opponents just stand at the edge of their weapon range and swing. Sideswing chambers are easy to block if the person chambering can't push in and make the chamber occur at near point blank range.

At the moment, usually the only time you see really good duelist get hit in a 1v1 is when he plays suboptimally by taking risks (usually just to make the fight more exciting). Somebody will eventually make a mistake, of course, but with greatswords it can literally take over a minute if both players are playing defensively.

Quote
Duel, dtv and rageball are nice adition but main gamemodes shouldn't suffer because of them.
Keeping melee as deep as it currently is does not make battle 'suffer'. It makes the game worth playing. The fewer tricks there are, the lower the skill ceiling of the game is.

The less there is to learn, and the less of a difference there is between a brand new player and an experienced player, the less reason there is to keep playing the game for a long period of time.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Zisa on June 20, 2012, 07:56:06 pm
Start talking stamina, and make sure it gets used by everything...
including blocking, aiming, moving...

Though with the current speed, and this game, may just mean we have to wait 30 seconds for the last two players to catch their breath before trying to outblock each other.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Joker86 on June 20, 2012, 08:02:56 pm
Though with the current speed, and this game, may just mean we have to wait 30 seconds for the last two players to catch their breath before trying to outblock each other.

Could be fun if an actual animation of recovering would be implemented, where both fighters bend over and put their hands onto their knees, breathing deeply while just staring at each other with this "Just wait a second there, I will get ya in a few minutes!" expression.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: _GTX_ on June 20, 2012, 08:12:06 pm
Yeah u think im talking about removing kick, no. I just want that kick to have a high danger which fits the high reward it has, when u land it. Instead of being a move u can use whenever u want, since u can just block, if it fails. Then u just try again, if it fails, then u just block. If u succed, u get a free hit on him.

Every trick so far required skill, some more than others. So if u messed that trick up, u would get hurt, which is why u trained on it, so that wouldent happen. Now kick on the other hand is free to use, with no real danger.  And for some reason, its the only trick left.... sadly.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: oprah_winfrey on June 20, 2012, 08:17:14 pm
Yeah u think im talking about removing kick, no. I just want that kick to have a high danger which fits the high reward it has, when u land it. Instead of being a move u can use whenever u want, since u can just block, if it fails. Then u just try again, if it fails, then u just block. If u succed, u get a free hit on him.

Every trick so far required skill, some more than others. So if u messed that trick up, u would get hurt, which is why u trained on it, so that wouldent happen. Now kick on the other hand is free to use, with no real danger.  And for some reason, its the only trick left.... sadly.

If you know your opponent is trying to kick you you can poke them since you can't block down and kick (not sure how viable that strategy is since the spin nerf)
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: _GTX_ on June 20, 2012, 08:19:17 pm
If you know your opponent is trying to kick you you can poke them since you can't block down and kick (not sure how viable that strategy is since the spin nerf)

Thats not really a high danger, and that doesnt require skill from the kickers side. That requires skill from the opponents side. And good luck getting a hit in, in that small time period.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Phew on June 20, 2012, 08:29:27 pm
Thats not really a high danger, and that doesnt require skill from the kickers side. That requires skill from the opponents side. And good luck getting a hit in, in that small time period.

The people in the most danger of being kicked (1h facehuggers with short weapons), would just glance their thrust at facehug range. Not to mention most of the short 1h weapons don't have thrust anyway (axes, picks). Warhammer is an odd exception, but 18p isn't going to win a lot of fights.

It sucks that the people with the highest risk of getting kicked (short 1h/shield users) can't use kick reliably themselves (since you can't block with a shield while kicking). Shield bash please!
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Yachdiel on June 20, 2012, 08:47:08 pm
Just hope the hilt part of the weapon actually hurts less and doesn't stagger or the whole broken mechanic isn't fixed. But as long as it does less damage to the decently armored and doesn't glance off the annoying superlights with high ATH I think this is perfect, and spamlords can still pad their stats on peasants and not cry about nerfing. Love this new mechanic if it gets implemented, more realistic, just hope it both fixes the problem and doesn't result in an new exploiting
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Zisa on June 20, 2012, 09:10:18 pm
Lets not forget the biggest problem with a stamina bar - how long are rounds?

Perhaps in a mode other then battle it makes sense, but a trained warrior is not going to be winded after five or six minutes.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Vodner on June 20, 2012, 09:32:23 pm
If you know your opponent is trying to kick you you can poke them since you can't block down and kick (not sure how viable that strategy is since the spin nerf)
The window for this is really small, to the point where you have to predict they are going to kick, and start your stab chamber animation before the kick animation starts.

That makes for interesting mindgames in duels where you fight the same guy 20-30 times and can get a feel for his rhythm, but it's not really an option in battle.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Lech on June 20, 2012, 09:48:17 pm
Start talking stamina, and make sure it gets used by everything...
including blocking, aiming, moving...

Though with the current speed, and this game, may just mean we have to wait 30 seconds for the last two players to catch their breath before trying to outblock each other.

Stamina does not only mean all or nothing approach. It can be used as wpf or/and agility or/and athletics penalty, stagger or even as damage system.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Zisa on June 20, 2012, 09:54:24 pm
Stamina does not only mean all or nothing approach. It can be used as wpf or/and agility or/and athletics penalty, stagger or even as damage system.
Then it is catering to certain 'unrealistic' unlimitations [sic] while 'realistically' penalizing others.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Leshma on June 20, 2012, 09:59:12 pm
Problem with stamina implementation is that entire game to be built around it. This one isn't.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Lech on June 20, 2012, 10:11:35 pm
Then it is catering to certain 'unrealistic' unlimitations [sic] while 'realistically' penalizing others.

Just add another layer to the combat system.

Problem with stamina implementation is that entire game to be built around it. This one isn't.

This one can incorporate some stamina elements just fine.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Zisa on June 20, 2012, 10:12:30 pm
Just add another layer to the combat system.

This one can incorporate some stamina elements just fine.
wtf does that even mean dude.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Jarlek on June 20, 2012, 11:15:30 pm
And here I didn't think we would see this in this generation of M&B...

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Kafein on June 21, 2012, 01:09:42 am
Lets not forget the biggest problem with a stamina bar - how long are rounds?

Perhaps in a mode other then battle it makes sense, but a trained warrior is not going to be winded after five or six minutes.

When referring to stamina it seems everybody is like you and thinks stamina should be some kind of amount of actions you can do in the entire round.

I don't think that's the kind of stamina that could be successfully implemented in Warband. But it's not the only one either. A stamina system that would seem a lot more sound to me would work on the short term. You do actions and your stamina goes down quickly, but it is also regained quickly when you do nothing. I'm thinking the kind of stamina as in Demon's and Dark Souls : (it's the green bar, below the red one)

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xkguq6_e3-2011-dark-souls-combat-gameplay_videogames

In the game you can do a couple of attacks depending on your weapon and which type of attack you use (there are light and heavy attacks) before lacking stamina. When you hold your block, stamina is regained, but quite slowly. You lose stamina when you block an incoming attack, but your opponent loses more. Also there are attacks such as shield bashes that don't do a lot of damage when they succeed but draw a lot of your opponent's stamina if blocked. You can always block but depending on the strike and your remaining stamina it might crush through (I'm not sure that would apply well to warband though). When you stand still/walk/run slowly, you fill up your stamina very quickly, but sprinting slowly draws it.


Also note that could be a good way to introduce a new consistution attribute that would govern iron flesh and an "endurance" skill defining your maximum stamina and it's refill speed when idle.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Tzar on June 21, 2012, 01:15:07 am
Aoc was helluva fun with their stamina bar system an it did prevent mindless spam..

But then again Aoc is dead due to lack of players  :lol:
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Wraist on June 21, 2012, 01:24:23 am
^What would you spam in AoC, slam? Also not sure if you were being sarcastic, but the stamina system there sucked.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Tzar on June 21, 2012, 01:36:23 am
^What would you spam in AoC, slam? Also not sure if you were being sarcastic, but the stamina system there sucked.

Age of Chiverlry not Age of Camelot

 :arrow: http://www.age-of-chivalry.com/
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Bobthehero on June 21, 2012, 01:40:32 am
Stamina's unrealistic in 5-6 minutes skirmishes.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Wraist on June 21, 2012, 01:43:32 am
Age of Chiverlry not Age of Camelot

 :arrow: http://www.age-of-chivalry.com/

I thought you meant Age of Conan  :oops:
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Joker86 on June 21, 2012, 02:06:36 am
Stamina's unrealistic in 5-6 minutes skirmishes.

Fight for 2 minutes with all you have for your life, and let's see. And yes, even trained soldiers start to breath heavily after a few minutes of real fighting.

I think the stamina should be completely different from what people know from game like Skyrim for example. Actually I would make it so that without enough stamina you can still perform any action you want, but it will be weaker/slower than normal. As soon as you stopped performing stamina consuming actions your stamina goes up rapidly. For the whole bar to fill from 0 to 100% you need like 5 seconds. And let's say a blow which inflicted damage or got blocked costs 5% stamina, a blow which got stopped by you costs 10%. (It's because you need to waste energy to stop your blow again). That way you would already have that mass feinting lowered. Of course the value can get modified by weapon weight and length. Running takes about 2% per second (for horses too). Again this is modified by item weight.

The less stamina you (or your horse) have, the slower you (or it) will run. Your hits will deal less damage if you approach the bottom of the stamina bar, and your swings will be slower. Blocking a few times will give you time to recover.

I would like to see a reason to make "light equipment" viable again.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Dezilagel on June 21, 2012, 02:13:07 am
Poor you, having to deal with feinting.

...
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Bobthehero on June 21, 2012, 02:15:46 am
To me, Stamina will make heavy armor even shittier.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: _GTX_ on June 21, 2012, 02:16:08 am
Fight for 2 minutes with all you have for your life, and let's see. And yes, even trained soldiers start to breath heavily after a few minutes of real fighting.

I think the stamina should be completely different from what people know from game like Skyrim for example. Actually I would make it so that without enough stamina you can still perform any action you want, but it will be weaker/slower than normal. As soon as you stopped performing stamina consuming actions your stamina goes up rapidly. For the whole bar to fill from 0 to 100% you need like 5 seconds. And let's say a blow which inflicted damage or got blocked costs 5% stamina, a blow which got stopped by you costs 10%. (It's because you need to waste energy to stop your blow again). That way you would already have that mass feinting lowered. Of course the value can get modified by weapon weight and length. Running takes about 2% per second (for horses too). Again this is modified by item weight.

The less stamina you (or your horse) have, the slower you (or it) will run. Your hits will deal less damage if you approach the bottom of the stamina bar, and your swings will be slower. Blocking a few times will give you time to recover.

I would like to see a reason to make "light equipment" viable again.

I dont think this add more depth to the melee, and more fun fights. I just think it adds more limits, making the melee fights even more dull.

And spamming feints is not good, while u are spamming feints, u are weak against attacks. Thats why u never see any top player do ridicolous amounts of feints, unless he is fucking around.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Joker86 on June 21, 2012, 02:20:19 am
Why does everyone fix on that feint thing? I just mentioned it because I think it looks unrealistic and idiotic.

And in my eyes limitations don't make fights dull. If anything, the opposite. Becuase being allowed to run around the battlefield and swing your weapon without any limitations seems more dull an plain to me than having to look for your fatigue and to take care you don't overstrain yourself.

But, as always, it's a matter of taste.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: _GTX_ on June 21, 2012, 02:22:07 am
Why does everyone fix on that feint thing? I just mentioned it because I think it looks unrealistic and idiotic.

And in my eyes limitations don't make fights dull. If anything, the opposite. Becuase being allowed to run around the battlefield and swing your weapon without any limitations seems more dull an plain to me than having to look for your fatigue and to take care you don't overstrain yourself.

But, as always, it's a matter of taste.

So u like an even slower game, where can u do even less hits, as more fun?. Anyway yeah, matter of taste.

Just one thing: U cant use realism as a valid reason for balancing this mod....
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: bruce on June 21, 2012, 02:23:04 am
Light armour is already decent, virtually nothing (except strong melee hits) oneshots light armour like it used to.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Visconti on June 21, 2012, 02:23:19 am
cRPG combat is slow enough without stamina. And as GTX said, it would just add more limits to melee combat, which we dont need in cRPG. The main attraction to Warband/cRPG was how fluid the combat felt (before this patch), a stamina bar would just make it clunkier then it already is.

to the original topic, different damage for the hilt/blade sounds great, just hope that the damage for the hilt isnt so low it will constantly be glancing.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Joker86 on June 21, 2012, 02:27:59 am
So u like an even slower game, where can u do even less hits, as more fun?. Anyway yeah, matter of taste.

Just one thing: U cant use realism as a valid reason for balancing this mod....

That's what I always say myself. But this is not about balancing two things with each other ("The one weapon is much longer and has a curved blade, it should...") or certain minor aspects ("If a horse runs you over you should be dead..."), it's about reworking the entire combat system. Which will need to be done anyway, if the feature of this topic will get implemented. And I am never against realism itself. I always think one should implement the maximum amount of realism, unless it starts to break balance. (Which, to be honest, happens quite fast, because reality isn't know for its fairness  :rolleyes: ).

And stamina doesn't neccessarily need to slow down the game. And by the way fast games are not everyone's taste. I for example HATE CoD, it's a hectic, unrealistic and worst of all mindless piece of shit. Watching the multiplayer videos with all those super fast knife stabs, thrown grenades and recoilless rifles which reload in 2 seconds makes me sick.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: dreadnok on June 21, 2012, 02:28:29 am
I wonder how this will affect the short 1h cut weapons. It will be nice to have a special hilt/fist hitbox for that.

it doesnt they glance or bounce
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Thovex on June 21, 2012, 02:28:45 am
Why does everyone fix on that feint thing? I just mentioned it because I think it looks unrealistic and idiotic.

And in my eyes limitations don't make fights dull. If anything, the opposite. Becuase being allowed to run around the battlefield and swing your weapon without any limitations seems more dull an plain to me than having to look for your fatigue and to take care you don't overstrain yourself.

But, as always, it's a matter of taste.

Back to Runescape with you.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Joker86 on June 21, 2012, 02:29:32 am
Back to Runescape with you.

I never played it, so I fear I don't get your joke/insult  :?
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: SixThumbs on June 21, 2012, 02:29:40 am
A stamina bar would just add an element that would be counter productive. Fights don't start getting really interesting until a few exchanges in when you feel out your opponent and a stamina bar would just break that cadence. We also don't have a firm control over "sprinting" and "power attacks".
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: _GTX_ on June 21, 2012, 02:37:25 am
That's what I always say myself. But this is not about balancing two things with each other ("The one weapon is much longer and has a curved blade, it should...") or certain minor aspects ("If a horse runs you over you should be dead..."), it's about reworking the entire combat system. Which will need to be done anyway, if the feature of this topic will get implemented. And I am never against realism itself. I always think one should implement the maximum amount of realism, unless it starts to break balance. (Which, to be honest, happens quite fast, because reality isn't know for its fairness  :rolleyes: ).

And stamina doesn't neccessarily need to slow down the game. And by the way fast games are not everyone's taste. I for example HATE CoD, it's a hectic, unrealistic and worst of all mindless piece of shit. Watching the multiplayer videos with all those super fast knife stabs, thrown grenades and recoilless rifles which reload in 2 seconds makes me sick.

Everyone i talked with liked the fast combat system, which were hard to learn, but so much fun when u learned it. Thats what made c-rpg special for me, the fast gameplay, with this amazing combat.

And all of them liked the faster version of c-rpg without the limitations, which we have got lately.

But lets just end here, since we understand each other, but just have different opinions, which wont be changed atm.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Scully on June 21, 2012, 02:49:51 am
Lower hilt damage would further encourage shielders to want to get inside your anus...
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: 22nd_deprav on June 21, 2012, 02:52:11 am
I'm too lazy to read how this turned into an argument about stamina.

But the hild/blade damage thingy is pretty awesome, it's kind of retarded to get one-hitted by the hilt of a polearm (and that makes me rage a lot). That might a bit of a big nerf for polearmes.

Maybe polestagger and low blunt damages for hilts and no polestagger for blade and cutting/piercing damages depending on the weapon. would that technically be possible ?

Also I will finally profite of the use of the sword, and having a side weapon might finally become useful !


Thanks for making the effort to do that !

EDIT :

that might be a big nerf for all hammers as well (1h, 2h and poles), maybe adding some more damages for the only little head of the weapon and lowering for the rest of it ?
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: cmp on June 21, 2012, 03:06:25 am
It would be possible, but I'd rather keep polestagger out of it entirely.
Weapons that have small blades will likely receive damage buffs.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Nehvar on June 21, 2012, 03:06:43 am
I like it in theory.  I am interested in seeing what you guys come up with in terms of balance.

+1
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Turkhammer on June 21, 2012, 03:07:12 am
You wouldn't have to nerf hammers if a fatigue system made you too damned tired to spam it like a windmill.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: SixThumbs on June 21, 2012, 03:09:20 am
This should theoretically make things more interesting. The personal plus side for me would be I'd be punished less for my game lagging/stuttering at the beginning of a person's attack and my opponent knowing how to press the beginning of the swing animation into the character model for a quicker hit.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: 22nd_deprav on June 21, 2012, 03:11:54 am
It would be possible, but I'd rather keep polestagger out of it entirely.
Weapons that have small blades will likely receive damage buffs.

Entirely was pretty bad : taking a huge amount of damages + getting stunned was pretty lame, even more when some pole users can spam you fast enough to hit twice before you recover.

But stunning with hilt would allow the pole users to get some distance back and then attack with the blade part (without stun). cause that's the bad point of it, if a polearm user gets face hugged he's fucked and kicking is too much risk for average players.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: v/onMega on June 21, 2012, 10:08:30 am
4th Heirloom will be spikes for my +3 greatsword in the hilt area, kthxbye.

Add this.
Just test it. I can beta test. :-)
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Kafein on June 21, 2012, 04:07:31 pm
Well tbh it makes sense that heavier weapons are harder to feint with, in opposition to most 1h. The unbalanced tag doesn't do what it is supposed to do, it just fucks up your animations (actually making feints harder to read imo), and only applying it to pikes, 2h axes and mauls doesn't make any sense. How could something has big as a GLA or GLB ever be balanced ?
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Gurnisson on June 21, 2012, 04:19:09 pm
How could something has big as a GLA or GLB ever be balanced ?

GLB is unbalanced. GLA is short with the polegrip already, doesn't need an unbalanced tag.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Zisa on June 21, 2012, 05:50:07 pm
GLB is unbalanced. GLA is short with the polegrip already, doesn't need an unbalanced tag.
Blatantly self serving.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Spa_geh_tea on June 21, 2012, 06:43:18 pm
Please make the first 3rd of 2hands swords do a low blunt damage. 10B or so.

Irl, if your gonna get hit by a baseball bat. Where would ya want to be?
Close to the hilt

CRPG, if your gonna get hit by a baseball bat where would you want to be?
Hmmmm.....doesn't matter does it.

Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Fips on June 21, 2012, 06:57:17 pm
Oh god YES!

No more facehugging-rightswing-spamming polearms/twohander would be veery nice. Or at least a nerf to that dmg.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Gravoth_iii on June 21, 2012, 07:25:01 pm
Very nice, very nice.. cRPG keeps evolving and i like it, a lot! Alltho like mentioned this will need some balancing, i'd say that cut damage should be pretty high on the polearms so when you actually get a cut damage hit, it packs a punch.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Frell on June 22, 2012, 03:31:09 am
This is stupid. That doesn't compare at all to a blunt weapon and it defined isn't comparable to a cut.

Itd hurt if you were naked but no.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Gurnisson on June 22, 2012, 04:17:29 am
Blatantly self serving.

Since I last picked up a GLA months ago and that I've never used a GLB. Think before you write
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Zisa on June 22, 2012, 05:17:08 am
Since I last picked up a GLA months ago and that I've never used a GLB. Think before you write
My bad, I missed you during my trip to eu servers, very pleasant by the way. I assumed from your avatar you toted a Great Long Axe.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: TurmoilTom on June 22, 2012, 05:21:38 am
My bad, I missed you during my trip to eu servers, very pleasant by the way. I assumed from your avatar you toted a Great Long Axe.

Eh, looks like a regular 2H Great Axe to me...
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Zisa on June 22, 2012, 05:33:25 am
Eh, looks like a regular 2H Great Axe to me...
Regular Great Axe is shorter. It's my weapon of choice when vacationing in euland.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: naked_mike on June 22, 2012, 06:49:06 am
Yes, please add this feature!  I'd definitely like to see it across for all weapons, with low-dmg hilt attacks.  It'll also make footwork more important, so there may be less super-armor folk running around.

On a side note, I'd love a fatigue system to be put in place.  There's one in the Brytanwalda mod, but it's too restrictive for my tastes.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Micah on June 22, 2012, 01:10:10 pm
umm.. i cant see how this change would affect or even prevent facehugging with short weapons at all
... on the other hand im in favor of doing something about the high damage dealt by GLA or glaive or anything like that at very close range
... ofcourse only the testing will show how such change really affects the overall gameplay .. so lets do it ;)
... regarding stamina or fatique or whatever ... could you guys pls get in ur own thread )_)
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Joker86 on June 22, 2012, 01:14:19 pm
umm.. i cant see how this change would affect or even prevent facehugging with short weapons at all

I guess short weapons are not meant to be prevented of facehugging. But doing it with halberds or two handed swords is another story.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Jarlek on June 22, 2012, 03:41:56 pm
umm.. i cant see how this change would affect or even prevent facehugging with short weapons at all
Removing facehugging from a 70 or less reach weapon would be retarded. That's pretty much how you have to fight with them. it's facehugging with weapons that are really long that's gonna be dealt with.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Christo on June 22, 2012, 03:43:25 pm
I can see it just now:

That people will rage so much because of the shaft hits are blunt, this leads to knockdown especially with heavier weapons.

 :lol:
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: cmp on June 22, 2012, 03:46:08 pm
Weapons must be specifically flagged to be able to knock down.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Christo on June 22, 2012, 03:48:12 pm
=(

Ruin my fun, will ya cmp.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Tzar on June 22, 2012, 03:51:48 pm
Question for Dear leader CMP.

While all of this sounds very interesting n stuff how do you plan for when everyone will be using short 1h´s and 2h assault weapons since any weapon with that hilt dmg nerf will become obsolete once every1 gotten used to the change an facehug their opponents :?:

Since u said you where to implement some sorta of punishment for backpedaling it wont take long before those weapons affected by this change will become complete trash or more or less support pike/spears with swing able attacks  :lol:

Anyways you did say you would take your time to make sure some weapons and classes didn't become obsolete hope you figure it out lol

EDIT: also what will happen after you change the entire game will people switch to ranged like they done in the past once u taken out or slowed down melee combat :?: or will they go cav it has happened before dont want more ranged or cav then we all rdy have on eu1 tbh
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: oprah_winfrey on June 22, 2012, 04:39:31 pm
Question for Dear leader CMP.

While all of this sounds very interesting n stuff how do you plan for when everyone will be using short 1h´s and 2h assault weapons since any weapon with that hilt dmg nerf will become obsolete once every1 gotten used to the change an facehug their opponents :?:

Since u said you where to implement some sorta of punishment for backpedaling it wont take long before those weapons affected by this change will become complete trash or more or less support pike/spears with swing able attacks  :lol:

Anyways you did say you would take your time to make sure some weapons and classes didn't become obsolete hope you figure it out lol

EDIT: also what will happen after you change the entire game will people switch to ranged like they done in the past once u taken out or slowed down melee combat :?: or will they go cav it has happened before dont want more ranged or cav then we all rdy have on eu1 tbh

He was talking about increasing the range of kicks to deter face hugging.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: bruce on June 22, 2012, 07:10:43 pm
Shielders and hammers 2012 :) And polearms to kill cavalry and in general support. And normal twohanders for general fighting, bit more vulnerable to facehugging but can stab horses and such.

It isn't so bad when you think about it.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Kafein on June 22, 2012, 07:18:32 pm
I can see it just now:

That people will rage so much because of the shaft hits are blunt, this leads to knockdown especially with heavier weapons.

 :lol:

Anyway, realistic damage values for weapon shafts would be about that of a quarterstaff.


Facehugging is weak enough as it is, except maybe with kinngrim's build. Although last time I fought him I got him with kicks, and that pretty much works for all people with small weapons.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Joker86 on June 22, 2012, 07:25:39 pm
Anyway, realistic damage values for weapon shafts would be about that of a quarterstaff.

I would go even lower than that, not for the sake of reality but just for the sake of balance. Because I don't think that all polearms should be basically (slower) quarter staffs with an additional dangerous head. Quarterstaff has 19 damage, staff 16, club 17, cudgel 15, wooden stick 14 and practice dagger 9. So let's say 12-13 is perfectly enough. With most STR based/favourising builds in this community you should still be able to inflict enough damage to at least stun the enemy.

If polearms are meant to be real support weapons, then force the players to handle them like that. Otherwise, if there is another option, they won't. Dealing "acceptable" damage with the shaft is wrong, you should always want to hit with the head of your weapon.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Christo on June 22, 2012, 07:27:22 pm
Not all Polearms are support weapons, Joker.

This would just nerf polearmers to oblivion once more, it needs to be done differently.

I don't want to see even more kuyak wearing 2h über pikesword heroes.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: matt2507 on June 23, 2012, 04:51:17 am
is what we will not be killed instantly by the handle of a lance lying ?

because what does that can be ridiculous..
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: moorane on June 23, 2012, 11:53:13 am
Although it's theoretically awesome, I voted no because I think it's very hard to find the right balance...
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: TaM1PiCh on June 23, 2012, 12:12:16 pm
cmp plz
+1
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Kafein on June 23, 2012, 01:56:26 pm
Not all Polearms are support weapons, Joker.

This would just nerf polearmers to oblivion once more, it needs to be done differently.

I don't want to see even more kuyak wearing 2h über pikesword heroes.

1. Slow down both top tier 2h and top tier polearms
2. Increase server speed to fast or fastest
3. ???
4. Game fixed
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: cmp on June 23, 2012, 02:19:58 pm
1. Slow down both top tier 2h and top tier polearms
2. Increase server speed to fast or fastest
3. ???
4. Game broken

Fixed.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Gurnisson on June 23, 2012, 02:23:04 pm
1. Slow down both top tier 2h and top tier polearms
2. Increase server speed to fast or fastest
3. ???
4. Game fixed

lolno
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Vodner on June 23, 2012, 02:48:16 pm
Fixed.
Native works quite well on fastest. Pretty much the only difference is that you have to be faster with your blocks and counters.

This increases the effect of ping imbalances a bit, but that could be largely solved (at least in NA) with more central servers.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Tydeus on June 23, 2012, 02:50:10 pm
Curious as to how this would work for 1hers. Seems to me that no matter how you look at it, it's likely going to be a rather brutal nerf for 1hers.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: ROHYPNOL on June 23, 2012, 03:03:43 pm
pole stagger/stun is ignorant lol im so glad they hopefully will get rid of it in na_1 one of these fucking days.. frug hit me 1 time with a short spear followed by a sequence of me not being able to do a damn think... stun/kick/stun/kick/stun/kick/stun/kick/kill
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: cmp on June 23, 2012, 03:04:34 pm
Native works quite well on fastest.

Most NA players will say it does, most EU players will say it doesn't.
Anyway, if we decided to speed up attacks, we'd do it the proper way: on a per-weapon basis.

Curious as to how this would work for 1hers. Seems to me that no matter how you look at it, it's likely going to be a rather brutal nerf for 1hers.

What? 1h is the only melee class that would be pretty much unaffected (i.e. buffed) by this.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Turk_Otto_Knight on June 23, 2012, 03:07:53 pm
nerf falling damages
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Spa_geh_tea on June 23, 2012, 03:10:35 pm
^ solution. Leave 1h alone. And rebalance if necessary afterwards. 1h animations tend to lead with the pommel, which makes nearly every swing a pommel in facehug territory. This range should be a 1h zone of maximum destruction, currently it is not. Also a dissention can be made between short 1h (<90) and the longer ones like kas and acs. Giving those weapons a pommel blunt damage and cut.

What will probably happen is that they will be inferior in getting the hits in, since blunt is much more effective against glancing issues even at low levels. However, the hilt slashes would be less damaging using those low values.
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: cmp on June 23, 2012, 03:18:41 pm
You don't even know how the system would work, so you are just speculating (and doing it wrong).
The contact point used to determine whether it was a hilt or a blade hit is the farthest one, not the closest one (i.e. pretty much every 1h sword hit will end up being a blade hit because of the short length).
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Thomek on June 23, 2012, 03:19:43 pm
Will there be a soft or hard transition between blunt and cut?
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Moncho on June 23, 2012, 03:24:04 pm
What? 1h is the only melee class that would be pretty much unaffected (i.e. buffed) by this.
This is what i think might happen
The kicking buff would affect them the most.

If long weapons dont facehug and stay at a distance (forced by this), shielders, with their shorter weapons, will have to cover more of an area before being able to engage. So before engaging you will need instead of blocking 1 hit like now, 2, so shields might last less.

Thats how i can think of the top of my head the change would affect them.

Also for maces and picks, the penalty should apply for the hilts, even though it will not affect too much
Title: Re: Possible new feature: different hilt/blade damage
Post by: Tydeus on June 23, 2012, 03:34:31 pm
You don't even know how the system would work, so you are just speculating (and doing it wrong).
The contact point used to determine whether it was a hilt or a blade hit is the farthest one, not the closest one (i.e. pretty much every 1h sword hit will end up being a blade hit because of the short length).
Sounds good then. I was just thinking that anything close to the center of rotation would be doing less damage. Considering that a lot of strong 1hers prefer a closer range rather than farther, that it would naturally mean a higher frequency of hilt damage than blade damage compared to other weapon types.