They have their counters: Other HA's
Spawny- a lancer or 1/2h cav can't kill a HA unless the cav use teamwork (not happening) or the HA makes a huge mistake.
They're annoying and hard to kill being another cav player (be it lancer or 1h/2h cav).
HA's aren't OP. Their job is to nullify enemy cav by shooting down horses...if you aren't smart enough to lure an HA to it's death then it's you're problem. Most HA's ocassionally get a good KD. Not consistent, like lancers or 2h. Our job is to be annoying by shooting out horses ect. The only HA's I've ever seen with consistantly high KD are Jackie and Tuenela. Even then there are plenty of maps where they are nullified and stuck in the mid scoreboard area.
The fact is, to be an effective HA, you have to have an extremely dedicated build. That means pumping all your points into archery, PD, Riding, HA, WM and nothing else. Essentially HA's can only be HA's. There's no real scope for shifting to melee or whatever. Seeing as we don't have the athletics, we also don't make that great foot archers and can be caught easily.
Brutal:Thanks for suggestion ;)
I wouldn't be against reducing they rate of fire
That's right, I have never been HA, and therefore I have no experience beeing it.
What I do know, is that other cav have no chance when 2-4 arrows is enough to kill their horse.
If you get a HA behind you, the only things you can do is try to dodge or get of the horse.
Thanks for suggestion ;)
You can only suggest nerfs if you've played the build. So go make an HA char and come back in a week. Otherwise you have no experience in it and have probably just been on the receiving end of a couple of very good players.
Normal gen 1 horse archers are not a concern, problematic are gen 7+ ones with fully loomed bow and arrows (and horse), as they deal respectable damage unlike gen 1 HA. Getting to gen 7 takes some time, so don't call 'try it'.
I don't know if there's another topic (or thousand) about this, but I've looked on the front page. I don't bother reading through 100 sides eighter.
The Horse Archer is too OP. It's just wrong when a HA can kill 5 lancers or whatever without any problem.
The only thing a HA requires is a fast horse, and you can't kill him or her. So, what I'm suggesting is:
- Make archer damage done by horse less
- Require higher requirements to get rid of some persents of them (?)
- Set a maximum number of HA aviable through a game (?)
- Make the horse require one or two slots (Only if bow equiped?), then the HA can't carry much arrows
- Reduce fire-rate. (Actually more realistic as the horse makes it harder to reload).
- Add a 5PD bow not usable on horseback, with slighter better stats than the actual strongbow.
So, these are my suggestions, if some of you have any good ideas or comeback, I can sure edit the list.
I am not saying to get rid of horse archers, because they are realistic, and they are as everyone else, doing their job.
I only want them to be a little less dangerous... :)
Chagan_ArslanWerther I suck or not is inrellevant. If my horse dies after three hits, it does not matter.
you suck at killing HA
Werther I suck or not is inrellevant. If my horse dies after three hits, it does not matter.
Suggestions :
Add a 5PD bow not usable on horseback, with slighter better stats than the actual strongbow.
OR Make the strongbow not usable on horseback AND add a 5PD bow with slighter worst stats than the strongbow, for HA.
And you will also add to diversity this way. :S
As a matter of fact mounted archers already have a (hardcoded) penalty to both damage and (animation) speed compared to a foot archer with the same stats and equipment. It takes 10 points in horse archery to lower this penalty to zero.
As a matter of fact mounted archers already have a (hardcoded) penalty to both damage and (animation) speed compared to a foot archer with the same stats and equipment. It takes 10 points in horse archery to lower this penalty to zero.
The only thing a HA requires is a fast horse, and you can't kill him or her.You can't? So archers, other horse archers, crossbowmen,throwers, shielders, high IF tin cans etc are all at the mercy of horse archers? 'oh gawd they got horse archers/we're all gonna die!' Devs should just nerf everything (except 2h/poles of course) and be done with it. This is getting old.
I'd say they should eighter be nerfed, or the horses get more hp. If horses get more hp, it might be easier for other cav to fight them. As it is now, its annoying and close to impossible.
I know one good anti HA class: horse crossbowman :D
Then you would never see HA's. Because an HA's job is to shoot down horses. And honestly against say a destrier, it'll take 5 arrows at least. Often 6-7. A courser will take 4. An Arabian can often only take 2, 3 at best, even palfreys and rounceys beat it on that front. Not all of the arrows I fire will hit. That gives you plenty of time to go and find your team and lure an HA into them.that's the problem you don't get enough time! i think the problem is that HA's can have all horses, just like toher cav. but any other cavalry can't run, because all the HA's can keep up. that's why they aren't OP in native. that should be changed
Interesting indeed to know. It's maybe only a little penalty though, and 6 horse archery lowers it quite a bit too. Since never saw any HA complaining about it. :P We ought to make some tests to know exactly what this penatly is.
a decent HA will top a decent HX. Shoot speed really comes into play in HA v HX combat.
That is true if the HC cant outrun the HA ;) but at 10 riding with courser in an open map his arabian at 6 riding wont be able to follow u so he'll change target so it gives u plenty of time to reload and swoop by and shoot him a second time. Though in a smaller map or 'no-cav" maps ... Ya HC is screwed.
They have to sacrifice a lot to get that sought after 4 HA, their bow-selection is limited (although perhaps strong bow should be 2 slots,) and their damage is extremely low.with a two slot Strongbow, it would be mean dead to all horse archers...a dedicated Ha need the 3 stacks of arrows(i use khergits, because bodkins are to less) to kill Horses and maybe some peasants...
How could u aim well and ride a decent horse at 3 riding and only 1 HA? I find it hard at 4 HA and 6 riding... *getting his note pad in a hurry*It isn't that bad. At full speed you are always going to be rather inaccurate as HA, and the dmg reduction from horse penalty after one HA skill is not much, the PD benefit to damage outweighs it by a lot. If you slow down and shoot at a distance [if you get that safe moment, as all HA know] Then you are just as accurate as on foot.
I have a dedicated HA with 7 PD 3 HA 6 riding and it is very very accurate. I am more accurate on a horse than on foot. I have to say it is the single most annoying and effective build ever.If the other team has any GOOD crossbowmen & archers then horse archers can be countered. If however they go for low priority targets instead of horse archers because they care more about their K/D ratio than winning the match then that's just bad tactics and the players fault.
Got a couple instant 30 clones of friends with that build together and there was nothing to counter us in battle maps and we carried x5 on those character for 2 hours before we couldn't stand ourselves anymore XD. It was extremely effective, but it wasn't fun.
If the other team has any GOOD crossbowmen & archers then horse archers can be countered. If however they go for low priority targets instead of horse archers because they care more about their K/D ratio than winning the match then that's just bad tactics and the players fault.There has to be an equal or greater number of foot xbow/archers for that to happen. As it skews into larger numbers of say EXAMPLE: 10 out of 12 people on one team being HA and the other team with 8 Archers and 4 other things? The HA will win by a landslide. It won't be close.
Nice infos, I'll try that next gen! But what horse do u use? Personnaly, whenever I played HA, range would have me as priority target so I always had to run for cover/teamates and my horse would fall fast to enemy archers (and with the current plague in HA) longbow/warbow shots would 2-3 shot my horse easily and as u know, dedicated HA does not run fast on foot...You'll take down their horses faster, and if you use defensive maneuvering you won't let anyone lance you if you are aware of them. Higher maneuver horses help. Desert horse if you are on the cheap side. Cataphract will always be the ideal HA horse but can only be used sparsely. Destrier takes a lot of arrows so it is good.
Having only 3-4 riding must mean other dedicated cavs (6-7 riding) would easily get to u and lance you no?
Horse Archer OP, Shielder OP, Archer OP, Crossbower OP, Horse Crossbower OP, ...I'm guessing the reason why you left out Heavy Cavs and 1H/Shield Cavs is because they're almost extinct anyways?
nerf or better delete all except twohanders and polearmers!
Disagree with OP. Not overpowered. Not even semi-viable until you have at least 18 agility for 3 HA, can barely kill anything before the build is finished, high upkeep, reducing fire rate isn't a "realistic" feature, so don't bill it as such. Watch some videos of people practicing the art of horse archery unload 5+ arrows at a 20mph gallop over the course of a half minute or less.our HA's can shoot like 12 arrows in 30 secs. not 5! their speed should be lowered! and yes, that does make sense! because it's harder to get a good shot so longer aiming then normal, and when your galloping you wouldn't reload as fast.
they aren't OP but they are annoying enough to take down all your teams cav. and noone can do anything about it :evil:. so something has to be done!Not when some cavs are heavily plated 8-)
our HA's can shoot like 12 arrows in 30 secs. not 5! their speed should be lowered! and yes, that does make sense! because it's harder to get a good shot so longer aiming then normal, and when your galloping you wouldn't reload as fast.
they aren't OP but they are annoying enough to take down all your teams cav. and noone can do anything about it :evil:. so something has to be done!
our HA's can shoot like 12 arrows in 30 secs. not 5! their speed should be lowered! and yes, that does make sense! because it's harder to get a good shot so longer aiming then normal, and when your galloping you wouldn't reload as fast.
I don't know if there's another topic (or thousand) about this, but I've looked on the front page. I don't bother reading through 100 sides eighter.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yorHswhzrU go to 2:30
The Horse Archer is too OP. It's just wrong when a HA can kill 5 lancers or whatever without any problem.
The only thing a HA requires is a fast horse, and you can't kill him or her. So, what I'm suggesting is:
- Make archer damage done by horse less
- Require higher requirements to get rid of some persents of them (?)
- Set a maximum number of HA aviable through a game (?)
- Make the horse require one or two slots (Only if bow equiped?), then the HA can't carry much arrows
- Reduce fire-rate. (Actually more realistic as the horse makes it harder to reload).
- Add a 5PD bow not usable on horseback, with slighter better stats than the actual strongbow.
So, these are my suggestions, if some of you have any good ideas or comeback, I can sure edit the list.
I am not saying to get rid of horse archers, because they are realistic, and they are as everyone else, doing their job.
I only want them to be a little less dangerous... :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yorHswhzrU go to 2:30they were OP in real life, we know etc.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yorHswhzrU go to 2:30Okay, now HAs are OP, lol.
As a matter of fact mounted archers already have a (hardcoded) penalty to both damage and (animation) speed compared to a foot archer with the same stats and equipment. It takes 10 points in horse archery to lower this penalty to zero.For damage:
...Watch some videos of people practicing the art of horse archery unload 5+ arrows at a 20mph gallop over the course of a half minute or less...to the target within 5 meters from shooter. And (just watch those videos more) sometimes miss even on this over-closed distance. And targets standing still... don't moving at all.
As a matter of fact mounted archers already have a (hardcoded) penalty to both damage and (animation) speed compared to a foot archer with the same stats and equipment. It takes 10 points in horse archery to lower this penalty to zero.but what if you make a seperate animation or something, so you can change it but acctually it's the same animation?
what bothers me is how do you nerf HA without nerfing other classes?
I guess one way would be to change what the Horse Archery Skill does, but that affects you as well if you aren't on a horse.
If you nerf their horses, you nerf all horses.
Perhaps horse + bow = less accuracy?
Or if you spawn with a horse a bow takes +1 slot?
Having a horse taking one out of the 4 slots might be a good solution. At least we won't see silly ha with 2 stacks of arrows and one 1h sword. And they call themselves dedicated. xDhorse take up 1 slot is a good idea, but than the lances should be 1 slot again.
Or just add "special" bows usable on horseback, with poorer reloading speed stats (and maybe other) than the current ones, and bingo.
Not having a real counter really makes them deadly to all. If they take more time to shoot, and maybe do 1 less dmg/1 less accuracy, then it will be an acceptable nerf.
I'm really waiting for solid arguments coming from HA explaining how their class is balanced.
All i've seen at the moment is "It's hard, try it, you'll see, we need rewards for playing dedicated class" and "HA got malus on horse, in terms of accuracy usually" (= to what i'll answer HA do more point blank shots than archers who NEED a good accuracy, if an archer fails his shot, he's in trouble. If an HA misses his, he'll do it again. And again.)
I'm really waiting for solid arguments coming from HA explaining how their class is balanced.
All i've seen at the moment is "It's hard, try it, you'll see, we need rewards for playing dedicated class" and "HA got malus on horse, in terms of accuracy usually" (= to what i'll answer HA do more point blank shots than archers who NEED a good accuracy, if an archer fails his shot, he's in trouble. If an HA misses his, he'll do it again. And again.)
1vs1 balance isn't everything.
You can do the same argument about horse throwers, 100% chance vs. 2h and polearms 1vs1. Yet once you killed him you are all out of ammo and can go suicide.
Shielder and crossbowman vs 2 HA? Crossbow hides behind shield, HA hides behind ... HA?
If HA are so OP why aren't there more of us? On any server with 100 people, you usually only see a max of 3 horse archers on one side. Often only 2, sometimes 1. I've never seen more than 3 on one team on a 100 person server.i saw 4 of them in one game an hour ago.
That suggests to me that the build is either requires more skill, or so dedicated people can't be bothered with it.
Horse taking up 1 slot is not a good idea. HA need that number of arrows to do anything. On an infantry with good athletics, bunny hopping around, I can guarantee that if they are armoured, I can easily waste all 3 quivers trying to kill him. Bunched infantry is our friend. And single rambo cavalry are also our friends. You will completely destroy any average HA and it would be pointless unless you are one of the best. Even then it would add difficulty.
Berethorn, you said earlier than an HA can shoot 12 arrows in 30 seconds. I'd love to see a demonstration of a moving HA doing this and actually hitting something :lol:
As for the other person earlier who said they shoot stationary as well as foot archers. That's because you're stationary :lol: The penalty only kicks in when moving, and that penalty is really a bitch. On an open map you will be riding at full speed (if only to avoid arrows and other cav), even on many closer maps riding at full speed, or at least manoeuvring a lot is a required in order not to die. Doing this, whilst shooting and avoiding threats (even obstacles) makes it very difficult to kill people. Furthermore, the amount of close maps and infantry maps makes it also hard, as HA are near useless as footmen, except if you can find a good spot to hide and pop out to shoot every now and then.
To Kafein: You're talking strictly 1 on 1. Against a shielder an HA is balanced out by the fact they can't shoot through the shield. Yes bumping helps this, but only if you're good enough to bump and take the shot, without the shielder loljumpslashing. Fact is, as I stated above, it's rare to find more than 3 HA on one side (even when GK are all on the same team we only have 3 HA) and so it's rare that you get 1vs1 situations. Fact is, against more than 2 archers it's very difficult for HA.
I know you will say balancing 1vs2 is not balance. But I think it's balanced by the fact there are 10x more archers on servers than HA, 10x more infantry and 10x more other cav variations. If you nerf HA, you won't see any at all. But then that might be your goal :wink:
Then make it your imperative to shoot down that HA before he does any real damage if it's so 'OP'. The same way I make lancers my targets because I know the better ones can do a lot of damage to my team. But I bet you don't simply because they aren't as OP in reality. There are only 2-3 good ones in the whole of the EU cRPG servers. Whereas there are far more good infantry and cav.
Archers should have high athletics. It's up to foot archers to stay aware and realise if anything is bearing down on them and so run away. I used to do so as a foot archer all the time. The only explanation for getting caught of guard is the fact you weren't paying attention.
As for the person earlier who said HA should be forced to use first person :lol: I'm not sure how many HA actually do, but I know I do simply because shooting from any other perspective is weird. Probably explains why I get lanced from the side so much lol. Or run into stuff a fair amount. But I hate 3rd person view. Weirds me out.
i saw 4 of them in one game an hour ago.
i'd like to see more HA's that take a bow, 1 arrow stack, shield and onehander. it is quitte effective really. and not so damn anoying as deticated ones.
jackie chan(almost)
with 4 HA skill, at 3m(10ft) you won't notice a f*cking thing of that penalty.
HA's can and will avoid archers and anything that can do anything against them.
maybe there are 10 times more archers, cav and footmen in a game then HA's, but HA's have 10 times better chance
another reason why you pick out lancers is because they are often away from the inf and archers that are their only chance against HA's
true
i think it is a pretty good idea, i also hate HA's because they can keep an eye out on everyone while turning and stuff and still make kills and survive. with 1st person they wouldn't be able to do that as much.
but for all HA's that post here, that something is difficult never is a reason for something not being OP
As I said before...HA actually have remarkably low survival rates judging from what I've heard of peoples K/D's.
That's because everyone hates them. When I have the chance to kill a horsearcher I will do it, even if it's the last thing I do. :lol:
So arguably everyones hate of them = low survival rates takes away any suggestion of being OP :P
For the hundredth time Overdriven, it's not because few likes to play HA, that they are often target, that they are not OP. Playing HA is not a dedicated play, but i know it's also boring from my own experience and others stated the same thing, that's why some of us don't play it. Secondly, if they are always targeted first, it's maybe MAYBE because they represent the more threat beacause of being OP, and it's not the fact that they thus have a low survival rate that will remove their OPness.
Hey, i've got an idea for you. Nerf HA, this way they won't be focused, this way they will have an higher survival rate and... oh, they're OP again. Well, nerf them again then, till they disapear.
Your wannabee argumentation is as close to one as a female cat is close to a male dog. They're mammals, that's all.
I said on one team.menat one one team sorry :oops:
Why should HA who want to be dedicated do that?
Jackie Chan is pretty much the best regular HA out there atm...of course you're gonna die when he's there :lol: The same way you would against the best lancers, 2H, archers or crossbowmen.
As I said before...HA actually have remarkably low survival rates judging from what I've heard of peoples K/D's.
They can, but eventually if they do that for long enough, they will either die, their team will die and they will be the last left and will inevitable run out of arrows and have to die, or their team will win anyway. The majority of HA's aren't game changing like many other builds are.
No the reason I pick out lancers is because they are the biggest threat to my own team. I could equally pick out 2h who move away from archers. But I don't, my first target is always taking out horses. Because cav will kill any of our archers and infantry who are presently engaged. It's got nothing to do with the lack of presence of archers more to do with the fact they are my biggest threat both to me and my team. Just like I'll take out an enemy HA first if possible, because I know that enemy HA will be doing the same thing I am.
Making HA only 1st person possible is no problem with me. But I don't think it's possible.
That something is difficult is a reason for it not being OP. Because most average players can't do it well. Again you're judging OP by players such as Jackie and Tuenala, or even GK's own Fru and Hentzi. You can't judge by the best. You judge by the average. And average HA do distinctly worse than average infantry or other cav.
EDIT: Missed a point. 4HA requires 24agi. That's a pure dedicated build directly built for being able to kill you off horseback. At anything less the the penalty is very noticeable. Especially on a courser. The number of points required to do that immediately makes up for any imbalance suggested. HA are put simply, shit in any other capacity.
It's not their massive K:D's that upsets ppl (cuz they don't have them), but the fact that they are so godawful annoying to play against if you don't have a ranged wep or a faster horse.
If a HA targets you and decides to stick with it, he will slowly chip away at your health while forcing you to jump around and spazz/hide behind cover for as long as he pleases, with nothing you can do against him.
It's the "there is nothing you can do" part that pisses players of, not that they rampage through entire teams with ease (that's lancecav, yes I've seen the hybrid "shrugs").
(Not to mention that they're the worst delayers (read: most effective) ever, but that's a player issue really)
Honestly I think bringing back throwing would help. Pre throwing nerf, they always used to be the biggest threat to lancers and HA. There were lots of them and they did high amount of damage if you got in close. Especially throwing axes...ouch :evil:
Don't mind Thomek, he's just angry that cav took his place as backstabbers =).
The problem imo with the over accurate horse archers (and therefore normal ones too) is the added accuracy bonus when you loom a bow, remove that, and the classes are balanced again.
I got the perfect thing that will resolve both the archer and HA whine: remove the reticle, i mean definitly. archery would be more about the skill of the player.
God forbid an OP horse archer shoots down my precious lolancer while we use our 100 foot long poles from a horse to one hit people on the ground while they are fighting or defenseless!
+1 agree, the best horse archers often will have a lower k/d than an average lancer who often have some of the highest k/ds. You just don't do enough damage and shooting at high speed is less effective than a 100 foot pole sweep with your lance, hitboxes much smaller with arrows. As a foot archer I find HAs much easier to kill and fight then foot archers, their main purpose, and consequently the group most afraid of them, is to kill lancers' horses who have no other truly effective counter (ride around pikemen, twist and turn your horse with crazy high maneuverability or go lightning fast and avoid foot archers arrows, but HAs can keep up with them and shoot them from up close but from behind where their lollances can't reach. I have a lot of respect for people that go HAs as its a thankless task (like being a pikeman) that helps the team a lot but doesn't really rack up a lot of kills, since horse kills are not counted.
HA's may not have a high K/D but when i played as a HA i always was able to get down 3-5 cav in one round if i knew what i was doing. and that helps your team more then any other class. with 4 HA's in one team, your cav is demolished. not fair that so few guys can do so much damage, while there isn't a decent counter to them like there is for other cav
as i said before, difficulty isn't an argument because:
if you play long enough you can be good with everything
and, a difficult class is most of the time a good one
so i think every HA used this argument already but i've played it too and it isn't. if you have a courser or arab, you can avoid or outrun every one on the battlefield, and if you have 4 HA or even 3, you can shoot eveyone after you play for a day, especially horses, because they are 3 times as big then a normal person, and if you watch your back, you can run past some one 10 times untill he's dead, it's not a difficult class, maybe to begin with but not to play with.
to overdriven, i think you may be understating how good HAs can be.
I want this thread to be realistic.
There are many good HAs that play on NA servers
on open maps HAs really can be a decisive factor and get very high kills.
I regularly get over 20 kills a round on open maps with few deaths.
but that doesn't mean that HAs are OP, many of those kills are helpless peasants
HAs are very map dependant and are very good at preying on the weak, unaware, and lazy players.
I must also mention that I have 5ps and get probobly 1/2 my kills using my mw elite scimitar.
(hard to get alot of kills otherwise due to arrow supply)
on maps that are not favorable for HA's i will sometimes go on foot and sometimes just switch to an alt
I've never seen an HA get 20 kills on one round on the EU servers :P
Tuonela, several times.
I hate horse archers with a passion, but having said that, they don't deserve a nerf. They're not op, they're just a genuine pain in the ass I can rarely harm.
to overdriven, i think you may be understating how good HAs can be.
I want this thread to be realistic.
There are many good HAs that play on NA servers
on open maps HAs really can be a decisive factor and get very high kills.
I regularly get over 20 kills a round on open maps with few deaths.
but that doesn't mean that HAs are OP, many of those kills are helpless peasants
HAs are very map dependant and are very good at preying on the weak, unaware, and lazy players.
I must also mention that I have 5ps and get probobly 1/2 my kills using my mw elite scimitar.
(hard to get alot of kills otherwise due to arrow supply)
on maps that are not favorable for HA's i will sometimes go on foot and sometimes just switch to an alt
Quoting myself from previous page:
I merely mentioned him as a HA that could get over 20 kills in a round.
And if you are a lancer complaining about horse archers, well hey, horse archers and pikeman are your natural weakness, so armor up.
Like I said. I apologise if I seem overly defensive. I realised that after I had said it! :)
I don't think there's ever an excuse to GTX Seawied. Not in Warband. It's simply admitting defeat. Rather I like to be persistent and if even 1 time out of 20 I can kill someone who is owning me over and over then I'm happy.
I don't think there's ever an excuse to GTX Seawied. Not in Warband. It's simply admitting defeat. Rather I like to be persistent and if even 1 time out of 20 I can kill someone who is owning me over and over then I'm happy.
True...I don't even bother trying to aim for an armoured horse. It's at that point that I go for the rider. But then typically armoured horses have armoured riders...so I leave them alone and go for the light horses :P
HAs are annoyingly good at taking out cavalry but as cav I can accept that good HAs are supposed to make me their bitch. I can't really say how unfair HAs are to infantry since my xbowman is so light armored anyway that he deserves to be shot to pieces by even weak bows. What truly irks me are the capabilities of HAs that ride high maneuver horses, especially when you see them trampling the same archers over and over to death by riding in tight circles. But then again that's more of a problem with horses rather than with horse archers.though HA's use the continues bumps a lot more thanother cav
though HA's use the continues bumps a lot more thanother cav
"The paper is OP!" said the rock to the scissor. "As a rock I should be able to counter it, I mean that would bring balance to this game".Unfortunately, this is a flawed analogy to HA. If HA is scissors, there exists no rock. The class doesn't have a real counter.
True...I don't even bother trying to aim for an armoured horse. It's at that point that I go for the rider. But then typically armoured horses have armoured riders...so I leave them alone and go for the light horses :PNow you're talking.
I never saw somebody "aboozing" horse bumping.
Glad you're not complaining about fully plated characters, since the repair cost is just astronomical (It pays to be prepared, I suppose).
How much time did you spend on EU1 and EU4? When I had my heavy plated charger, steel shield, ah, these were the good days before those pussy developers gave the courser higher charge damage than the heavy plated charger RIDICULOUS.
But even nowadays, a smart player will always "abooze" the horse "bumping", and be it only to knock the enemy down, so that a teammate can slash the enemy in the face while hes trying to get up.
Also, the courser at full speed still does insane damage against light armored footmen, like shielders or archers.
How much time did you spend on EU1 and EU4? When I had my heavy plated charger, steel shield, ah, these were the good days before those pussy developers gave the courser higher charge damage than the heavy plated charger RIDICULOUS.
But even nowadays, a smart player will always "abooze" the horse "bumping", and be it only to knock the enemy down, so that a teammate can slash the enemy in the face while hes trying to get up.
Also, the courser at full speed still does insane damage against light armored footmen, like shielders or archers.
Btw, ever seen a end round with 1 HA vs 3 melee ?
That's exactly what makes that class broken.
Yes...and a lot of the time the HA has run out of arrows and then is screwed and gets kicked either for delaying or goes and finds a weapon and then dies.They just pick up arrows and shoot time continues.
They just pick up arrows and shoot time continues.
It's pretty hard to do that whilst riding around trying to avoid the melee and looking for arrows. Plus the thing of dropping arrows if you pick up one of a different type makes it quite difficult.
Pretty much this right here. Its difficult to pick up large weapons on horseback, let alone arrows. Not to mention that you can't stop or you get shot right away.
You can get shot by melee while picking up arrows ? :shock:
Yes, if you drink a certain fluid, you can spit so outrageously fast, it can knock down even zombies.
By aboozing I meant somebody that does nothing but horse bump to get kills. In NA I saw some lulzbuild like this (BeastLover and some other names I can't remember) but it was more annoying than really doing anything else.It can be perceived in another way named 'assist'.
They just pick up arrows and shoot time continues.
Unfortunately, this is a flawed analogy to HA. If HA is scissors, there exists no rock. The class doesn't have a real counter.
Luckily, HA's scissors are dull and generally not very dangerous. Their supreme survivability and lack of real counters would be an issue if they could rack up kills like no tomorrow. They can't.
HA's are fine. Fucking annoying, but fine.
I need to record me playing horse archer and make a video.
Also, Bump shooting has no melee counter when done correctly. There is nothing they can do. They can't swing back to attack you because your first shot will hit them and stun them right before you impact (when they try to swing at you), and your second shot hits them before they get back up. You are too manueverable on a horse to MISS your bump. If I want to bump you; I WILL BUMP YOU.
regular play of HA is so easy, these complaints saying it is difficult make me cringe. You have to try to not be effective. For example, you would have to choose to suicide your horse into enemy lancers [or walls by infantry, lol what] and you would have to choicefully not fire your bow. Because if you just fucking spam arrows the entire time in people's general directions I guarantee you will get many assists if not kills.
If you're using an Arabian yes. But with my courser it's really not easy to turn at speed enough to bump them to make them crash to the floor, or even just interrupt them without them managing to get a loljumpslash in or sidestepping and hacking my horse.. The lack of manoeuvre hurts from that pov. I think this is really only effective properly using an Arabian.
If any one spams arrows Marathon you can get assists, you'll probably get a fair few team hits too. Fact is though getting kills isn't quite so easy a lot of the time. It's very very map dependent for most HA and against all but the weakest players it takes a fair few arrows. Fact is, it may be easy for you :rolleyes: But the majority of the time I see anyone on EU as HA, they don't have a very good K/D. Only a few regularly get one.
If you're using an Arabian yes. But with my courser it's really not easy to turn at speed enough to bump them to make them crash to the floor, or even just interrupt them without them managing to get a loljumpslash in or sidestepping and hacking my horse.. The lack of manoeuvre hurts from that pov. I think this is really only effective properly using an Arabian.Courser you sacrifice maneuver for speed. bad argument. Every other horse, including cataphract and such can and will bump the enemy every.single.time.
Oh cmon, you can't be serious?
Are you saying that because you are choosing to "gimp" yourself by using a courser and are therefore not able to keep melee constantly stunned using bumps, HA vs melee balance is fine?
As stated earlier, the problem with HA is NOT their massive k:d, but the fact that they force upon everyone else on the battlefield a defensive and boring playstyle, and that they are so godawful annoying to fight if you don't have the right equipment.
Let's face it, they effectively deny all oter classes the opportunity to flank (notice how the massive influx of lancers and ha have almost removed ninjas), leading to more campers surviving. And the best counter to HA and lancers is to camp... So there's effectively no reason not to camp since you no longer have to fear flanking infantry and rushing will only get your team killed (by campers and cav).
For me, m@b is at it's best when the battlefield is dynamic, with melees going on everywhere, cav charging and archers supporting. It's at it's worst when it's just a big campfest,
Courser you sacrifice maneuver for speed. bad argument. Every other horse, including cataphract and such can and will bump the enemy every.single.time.
p.s. I don't use the arabian. I use desert horse even though it is inferior in every way to the arabian war horse to save a bit of money -- to afford armored horses more often. Desert horse does everything I need, I have never been lanced off of it without having been my own fault by running into walls and such.
if they get a "loljumpshlash or sidestepping and hacking my horse" then it is the HA's fault for letting it happen.
One, a 'loljumpslash' can't be done by a 1h/shielder if you shoot before impact regardless. If they are a 2h or pole arm with a logner weapon -- Guess who you Don't bump? Yep, you got it right; You just shoot at them til they die, they don't have a shield so why bump them.
Therefore you would suggest that the problem lies in the Arabian, not in the HA himself :wink:
No other class uses the Arabian to its full potential like a smart HA does.yes
lies in both. HA amplify the problem of the Arabian horse. No other class uses the Arabian to its full potential like a smart HA does.
O dear no ninjas. I forgot that a game should allow people to sneak off across the battlefield and kill late spawners/afkers.
Hey none of the Ninjas I know goes to kill AFK'ers. They are usually already dead anyway. Killed by cav and HA I guess..
lies in both. HA amplify the problem of the Arabian horse. No other class uses the Arabian to its full potential like a smart HA does.
All cav utilises the Arabian easily. Not just an HA thing.
It's pretty hard to do that whilst riding around trying to avoid the melee and looking for arrows.Not at all. Saw it many times.
Then stop being ninjas *shrug*Become a HA! :)
Lancers, 1h, 2h, and non-lance polearm cav have to come in close for a kill. Because of this, the arabian horse is a bit of a glass cannon over other choices like the desterier or the warhorse. Because HA are primarily looking for something to avoid even being close to any blades, Arabian horse's drawbacks are very minimal. That is what I mean when I say HA use the Arabian horse to its full potential.
What i meant was that the most afk-killing classes is cav and HA. It's just sad to watch cav hurrying to kill them off.
Hence why I see my job as killing those cav who try to get afkers.vey few would agree on that...
Working full time x summer uni classes +life= no one sees Marathon in-game ever again.
I'll make a HA video whenever I can play. Working full time, summer uni classes + life = little time to play.
And why would that be?in this whole topic you havent made a decent argument not to nerf HAs.
in this whole topic you havent made a decent argument not to nerf HAs.
And it being hard, which i dont agree with isnt a decent one.
In this whole topic no one has made a decent argument to nerf HAs :lol:
In this whole topic no one has made a decent argument to nerf HAs :lol:
They're a tricky class to get balanced right. And Dezilagel, he might be very biased toward cav, but he is correct on this instance. How do you balance HA without making cav too weak? I think the status quo is decent enough for the moment, but it could be better. I don't have any solid suggestions to improve the current state however.
They're a tricky class to get balanced right. And Dezilagel, he might be very biased toward cav, but he is correct on this instance. How do you balance HA without making cav too weak? I think the status quo is decent enough for the moment, but it could be better. I don't have any solid suggestions to improve the current state however.
make strongbow unusable from horseback; this would also get rd of the problem with the best 1-slot bow also being available for HA's (why wouldnt you have a horse if you'll use he same bow anyways? (don't answer this))
Also, I would like to know how many here has tried horse archery? Because I can name only a dozen (probably less) horse archers that isn't a joke in the EU servers.
Overdriven it seems like you aren't very construtive and don't really thnk about game balance - you just lobby for the items you are using yourself.
Lobbying for HA, lobbying for courser over arabian (since you are 'nerfing' yourself by using courser), lobbying for everything else you use - and whining for nerf for everything you don't use.
that results in many ppl not taking this trhead seriously - if you want to make a point, try to dig out some arguments and think about it in a bigger perspective.
i really don't see this as 'my' discussion - and the strongbow thing was just something i suddenly thoguht off where you can either agree or not - CBA to argue which is why i'm not trying to take an active part in the discussion.
I agree that HA is hard, but it is also very very good if you are good at it - i'd say it's pretty balanced tough.
regarding the arab/courser question: They are balanced imo, it all depends on your playstyle.
If you like backstabbing people and running when you encunter aware enemies (also if you wnat mass kills), go for courser.
If you prefer cav duels, killing aware people and being able to move navigate small palces and groups of enemies; go for arab.
If you take a look at some of the best cav (Eu, and just posting the names that come to mind), they also use all the different hroses:
Tommyyy (Inactive) - Arab
Leed - Courser
Torben - courser
Chargan_Arslan - Arab
regarding your posts - i CBA to start some big offensive discussion, so i'll just leave it here.
I'd argue against those play styles. But the point of the thread is in order to argue against HA. There's no point turning it into yet another nerf horses because of lancers (the play styles you focused on) thing.
...
Rebalancing horses on a horse by horse basis. Whether this is manoeuvre for HP or what I don't know, it has already been talked about in other threads ect.
Can't talk about horse changing without talking about overall game balance, especially regarding anyone riding a horse. It will also afect other classes, though.
Urr I've been thinking about game balance. And so far every suggestion tips it heavily against HA. Most of the people arguing here are either pissed of cav or pissed off infantry who have never even tried playing as HA. The ones who have been thinking sensibly have argued that HA is more annoying than dangerous except for those very few who are actually quite good at it (more people than not argued this). But as is always said, you can't balance by looking to the few best players.
I've suggested several things that may help the situation. One being agreeing with the better 1 slot, unusable on horseback bow (without taking away the strongbow for HA), which would give a nice buff to archers as they'd have a wider selection and would possibly be able to take a cav counter. Another, suggesting that throwing will heavily help the situation (people seem to forget throwing was an incredible cav counter before it got nerfed). A couple of throwing axes would take down your horse no trouble. I have no problem with throwing being added and with it being there as a cav counter. I welcome it.
I lobby for the courser because most people when they suggest a manoeuvre nerf don't specify. They suggest it for all horses. But there is a big difference between all the horses and so it has to be taken case by case. In open plains a courser is significantly better because of it's speed. I use it to keep up with/stay away from all cav whilst having a decent amount of hp/armour/charge. Seeing as I view my primary role as killing cav. Which isn't nerfing myself, it's just viewing my role differently. Others see theirs as annoying inf, or being able to manoeuvre on smaller maps.
So far you haven't actually argued against the point of refuting your strongbow unusable suggestion. You have just resorted to suggesting that I am talking rubbish. When in fact I've argued a solid case here, and in many other posts. So perhaps you should argue back. Or maybe you can't think of anything and instead result to petty comments.
Long ranty post.
I know but as soon as you go in depth it starts a big argument on a tangent. And I'd rather try and avoid that and keep this as specific as possible to HA. Horse changing has been discussed heavily in other threads. So I don't really want to go into specifics on it and will simply say I agree they should be rebalanced to an extent and leave it at that, rather than go into any details on how it should be. Especially because this thread was originally designed to be about HA being OP.
And what kind of bs is this? Are you SERIOUSLY saying that we should stop discussing HA balance in a large perspective just because "there are other threads"? Are you SERIOUSLY saying that we should stop going into anything deeper than that they need to be rebalanced? As a developer, how would you react to that?
"We want HA rebalanced!"
"How?"
"Well, were not going to be any more specific than that, let's just say that they need to be"
"Uhm, ok...?"
And YES this thread was originally about HA being OP, i.e a discussion about HA in relation to other classes. So why the fuck should we stop discussing that and start.. ehm.. "discussing HA specifically", but not more specific that that they "need to be rebalanced".
FFS, if this is your atempt at "backing out", it's just sad. Bro it's not the end of the world if HA gets a slight tweak...
Anyway, I apologise to all if I come across as overly defensive!
Adding a 1 slot bow (possibly war bow) unusable on horse back.
Rebalancing horses on a horse by horse basis. Whether this is manoeuvre for HP or what I don't know, it has already been talked about in other threads ect.
Buffing throwing.
Well thank you, you just made replying a lot easier. You used the word 'annoying' instead of 'OP'. That already makes your post redundant. You can't nerf a class for being 'annoying'. You can when it is 'OP'.
Anyway. I've already stated in other posts some sensible things (read post #168) and apologised for my defensive attitude (due to my bias). So perhaps you should stop ranting now and get back on track.
Strongbows aren't super powered. Melee infantry should work with their team, perhaps their archers. And I've been trying to think of a way to help archers against horse bumping cav (I used to play as an archer so know how annoying it is).
Manoeuvre of horses is not a problem across the board. That has been agreed in several other threads and people have already recognised that you need to take the horses individually. Suggesting otherwise makes no sense. Otherwise every time a class got nerfed or buffed, it would be a flat out 1 up, 1 down, across the board. Which it rarely, rarely is. People have suggested the courser gets a speed nerf, which I've never argued against. But that's because speed is it's main. Manoeuvre isn't. Where as the Arabian the manoeuvre is the problem.
Again, I don't see how my three last standing melee friends will do againt an HA.
The first is simply an archery buff. Not really what we need right now. The second, I'm all for it, less maneuver/speed and more hp/charge. The third, will happen no matter what (hopefully) and will be a nerf for 2h, foot archers and melee cav too.
But still even with all those changes, melee (cav or not) can't do anything against an HA with positive EQ (not charging a pike etc.). Everyone seems to forget this. Foot archers can shoot and run but not at the same time. Melee cavalry can run but has get in melee range to hit. HA can run and shoot at the same time, and on top of that are the best for killing horses and barely at a disadvantage against foot archers, which are their best counter at the moment.
HA were dominating the medieval warfare for a reason, yet nothing really balances it. It is hard, but just as blocking is hard or foot archery is hard. Many melee spent weeks just getting better at basic blocking when the game was released. It takes time to build up player skills so no wonder everyone that just began playing HA now is bad at it. Give them a few weeks and you'll have HA that survive and kill. A few months more and you can potentially get Tuonelas and the like. Afaik, people that bought the game and started playing 2h did not became Phyrex-like in one day.
Posted this a while ago because I know I can be considered defensive and argumentative when it comes to things like this.
When I've argued against this, it's been because I hate people's approach as much as I'm sure people hate mine. Too many posts have been random rants about how OP HA is without actually saying anything constructively and suggesting anything. So I've spent so much time arguing against them I may have missed proper suggestions and many of my posts have been non-constructive themselves because of this. I tend to get locked into arguments easily :lol:
Any way, to reiterate I apologise for my defensive stance and I shall try cool down a little.
I'm not saying stop suggesting things in a larger perspective. I'm saying is there really a need to launch into a big discussion about rebalancing horses in this thread? Could we just accept that horses need rebalancing/nerfing/whatever and that it would help the problem if there is one and leave it at that? Everyone knows the courser can be too fast, and the Arabian to manoeuvrable. It's been discussed 100 times in 100 threads. I'm sure the devs are already working on it if they are. And so I think a better approach would be to consider other options other than the nerfing horses things. If there are any other suggestions then perhaps those need to be discussed in depth, because they may not have before. Whereas the nerfing horses thing has been done to death and discussed in every which way.
As for melee against HA. That was where I was hoping the throwing might come in. If they allow builds that can take throwing and be effective in melee (which I'm hoping they will). Then surely that would provide melee with an effective counter?
Well this sounds a bit more reasonable, but just because other people are posting stupidly biased things doesn't mean you have to to "balance" it up lol :p
Ignore the stupid suggestions, bring forth the good ones instead!
And imo, there can never be too much discussion, that's what this forum is for right? If you want to highlight other issues than those concering horses in themselves, fine do so, but let people discuss what they want to^^
Throwing is not melee.
Just wanted to add something in the discussion :
I really hate wannabees horse archer who just puts points in riding skill to get the horse they want. Then, you just have to ride a bit to evade arrows, halt to shoot with NO penalty, and move again. It gives all the advantage of a foot archer with 5 PD (put riding skills instead of athletics), and yet you can really choose your opponent, and be AS deadly as a 5 PD foot archer (who also needs 6 arrows to kill a medium armored guy).
I also see more of those clearly abuser around (even MonkeyArcher, a decent foot archer, seems to be doing that now, with another of his WARPIGS friends).
Seriously, this is just plain nonsense.
Even by balancing horses (less maneuver, more hp), this kind of irritating playstyle will stay untouched.
"But when you ride you have a big malus" seems to only "work" when you actually move. If, i say if, this could be modified so that you get this big malus AS SOON as you're on the horse, it will really help a lot.
So basically :
-balance horse (nerf maneuver (speed too ?)/buff hp (armor too ?) )
-add a 5 PD bow for foot archers (or add a message to tell them to go 6 PD if they want to stay on foot)
-Make the ranged malus apply when you're on a horse, and not when the horse is moving (or at least make a different malus apply, wich is totally deleted with 4 HA for example)
And then, probably, things will change a bit. Real dedicated and good HAs will still be usefull, fake ones will die easily, and good archers can still compete with good HA)
PS : Notice i didn't say nothing about the bumpshot from HA, wich is, imo, really a skill, and not a "break the balance" factor. Having an horse gives you an advantage. Balancing it doesn't mean removing that advantage, but making it a normal one, and not an overwhelming advantage.
@Overdriven : Still waiting for your reply in Keshian's horse balance, you had said you'll post there after the battles, and i'm sure you've noticed how cav played a very important role in it. ;) Even against organized infantry.
Agreed. Glad we have reached an amiable position.
I shall try to in future. But my rant switch automatically switches to on when I see posts like that. Guess I have to trust in the people who matter to actually look past those posts.
I know throwing isn't strictly melee. But that's also like saying melee players don't use crossbows. A lot do. Dedicated melee fine. But surely tossing throwers back into the equation (who have melee tendencies, or at least used to, unless dedicated) could help even things up a little?
Well, I'm dedicated (no xbow, no throwing, no nothing) noshield melee (as you may have figured out lol), and I know that alot of melee players do not bring xbows because they find it amusingly fun, it's because they feel like they need to do so to be on par with the other melee guys bringing their xbows. Some of them do ofc find the change in pace fun/satisfying, but many would just drop them if they weren't so bloody effective (at 0 wpf...).
And about htrowing melee tendencies... You have to remember that anyone who carries a ranged weapon will always hesitate to go into melee against someone who doesn't, unless that person is choosing to ignore their advantage (which is rare), this will always stay true. Also, if two people are carrying roughly equally powerful ranged arsenals, and roughly equal defenses (shields) there's little sense in switching to melee for any of them. (As you will be disadvantaged in melee from the damage of the other persons' ranged weaponry, or you might just not get to melee at all). This is why I'm abit worried about the upcoming throwing buff. I do have faith in the balance team that they will try to balance it as good as possible, but if throwing is returned to a level of effectiveness where everyone not dedicated ranged or cav is carrying a couple of stacks (which was the case pre-patch, and those spears/lances/whatever hurt ALOT), we are going to se a HUGE decline in the amount of melee battles actually happening on the battlefields. And a large increase in shielders, since those are going to be the guys that actually get's to the melee brawl. And how does agi vs str fit into this? from my pov this is going to be a huge str buff since PT is what any thrower wants to stack, while hp/armor is your main defence. Not to mention that str is already very powerful. shielders might want to stack abit more agi due to shield hp/coverage, but that is already the case.
tl:dr Throwing is not a way of fixing melee vs HA, since it doess not promote melee in any way.
Glad you've chilled out bro :wink:
Bulzur a small point if I will :P Cavalry did so well on the battles because the cav played to support the infantry, not the other way round :P Cav perform well in k/d due to the nature of their role, they are however somewhat limited without the infantry.
My opinion on HA? My god are they annoying :P however I can barely feel the hit from a ha when I'm in medium armour, my horse on the other hand doesn't have this luxury. Compared to a Longbow HA damage is nothing.
You can nerf horses again but the best players are still gonna kill you because its not their horse that is the deciding factor, it's you're unawareness. This is my response to anyone who wants to claim cav are OP.
Now I'll sit here patiently and wait for throwing to come back in. When it does you infantry / lancers / archers are gonna wish I was using JUST a strongbow off horse :twisted:
I can see your point. But is there away to do something about HA's shooting when still, without damaging their ability to shoot whilst moving? (question to devs who happen to be reading).
If you ADD a malus while just being on horse, but makes it null with 4 Horse Archery, then it wouldn't penalize at all the dedicated horse archers. Maybe some would still steady before shooting, but they would shoot nearly as accurately when moving slowly anyway, so no big deal.
Still, i'm really pleased we can discuss this. I'm maybe siding with the "anti-cav", even if i'm trying my best to be objective, and same for you GKs on the other side. Hopefully we'll reach a deciding point on wich both can agree, and then we can present the result of this "already 13 pages" topics to the devs, and see what they think of it. :mrgreen:
Well thank you, you just made replying a lot easier. You used the word 'annoying' instead of 'OP'. That already makes your post redundant. You can't nerf a class for being 'annoying'. You can when it is 'OP'.
...
And I've been trying to think of a way to help archers against horse bumping cav (I used to play as an archer so know how annoying it is).
derp?
True. But then it would make it hard until level 30, which is when most dedicated HA get that 4 HA because of the 24 agi requirement. It's already tricky till 30 because of that lack of 4 HA and all the WM. I like the idea in general though. I wouldn't suggest reducing the HA requirements by any standards. But perhaps rooting out all but the most dedicated may not be such a bad thing. I know I'm dedicated enough to grind to level 30 for that elusive 4 HA. And I'm sure I still would be even if it was a bit crappy before you hit that 4 HA.
What is with you guys and getting 4 HA on a 15/24 build.
You shoot tiny weak arrows at people slightly more accurately at the cost of massive amounts of damage if you instead had higher PD. No wonder you think HA are bad, you play with a weak HA build!
I play currently with 21/18 7 PD 3 HA 6 WM 6 Riding and it would beat your HA 4 out of 5 times in HA fights.
But the best HA build I tried was 27-12 with 9 PD/ 4 WM/ 4 riding /2 HA /(4 ath or 4 IF, depends on if foot archer or no), And i wish my HA was still that build because it raped so violently. The damage on it is insane. it is still accurate, although does shoot a bit slower.
All your complaints have been stemming from your bad build and poor horse choice. Stop it. Stop making bad decisions.
If you have eyes and are aware of situation, you don't need high riding to dodge every lancer and 2 shot his horse (since you do more damage with 9 PD).
The extra WM and HA makes a big difference to horse archery. The extra PD might work for you in NA. But in EU I can assure you, that extra accuracy would mean you are dead to most HA in EU easily.I haven't played a game in 5 days, and am still working on course work. When I get this done I'll play and record. I take 5 minute breaks and will read the forum between a chapter and such.
Most HA I have ever spoken to rely on the 15/24 build. You're the first I've ever seen post that states otherwise. I'd be interested to see what EU's best HA stats are.
Edit: And where's that video? :wink:
I haven't played a game in 5 days, and am still working on course work. When I get this done I'll play and record. I take 5 minute breaks and will read the forum between a chapter and such.
Overdriven, you keep saying HAs aren't dangerous. And you are right in way, they don't get a lot of kills on average, but they can get 4 of the best cavs horses down without a scratch, and that only in one round! And that while they don't have to be good HA's. They are probably the best class if you want to help your team. Those cavs could've got down 20 people at least. The cav can't do a thing about it. That i think is unfair.
Overdriven, you keep saying HAs aren't dangerous. And you are right in way, they don't get a lot of kills on average, but they can get 4 of the best cavs horses down without a scratch, and that only in one round! And that while they don't have to be good HA's. They are probably the best class if you want to help your team. Those cavs could've got down 20 people at least. The cav can't do a thing about it. That i think is unfair.
I have one huge disagreement with you overdriven. You state that HA are often not the most aware of classes.
HA is a class based on awareness, if you aren't aware of everything around you then you've already missed opportunities to inflict damage and avoid damage. An Aware HA has no chance of being lanced, running into infantry blindly, and will avoid the roofs with archers on them and so on...
If the HA focuses on one opponent and gets itself killed needlessly, it is a bad HA. End of story. HA inflict damage across the entire enemy team when opportunities are given and there are always opportunities. Enemy horsemen are easy targets to dehorse and kill and are the favorite food of a HA on the hunt, yes.
Also, only dedicated throwers [with shields] are the counter to HA. Your idea that every 2h melee should carry a ranged weapon dedicated to taking out a minority target -- and it still not be a decent counter? Throwing as a dedicated character counters Horse archery. A melee with a throwing sidearm does not.
HA is a class based on awareness, if you aren't aware of everything around you then you've already missed opportunities to inflict damage and avoid damage. An Aware HA has no chance of being lanced, running into infantry blindly, and will avoid the roofs with archers on them and so on...I don't know, I believe all classes need awareness, even when I'm fully plated on a plate charger, I still get one shot by lancers if I didn't pay much attention to them. It's hard to generalize one class by one's play style, but battle awareness is something required for all classes to survive in the harsh environment of Battle.
Oh, and I just got CPR, AED and First Aid Certified today.By Red Cross?
I don't know, I believe all classes need awareness, even when I'm fully plated on a plate charger, I still get one shot by lancers if I didn't pay much attention to them. It's hard to generalize one class by one's play style, but battle awareness is something required for all classes to survive in the harsh environment of Battle.if you're a lifeguard, save us all form overdriven, or he'll eat us alive! :P
By Red Cross?
Sadly I didn't have AED certified since my lifeguard training didn't require such course at the time.
Not true, cav have the mobility and speed to actually have some "gtfo" abilitiy against HA, and are the last ones that should be complaining (infantry in the same situation would be completely at the mercy of the HA).
And I LOL'D at your "those 4 cav could've brought down 20 ppl at least" xD Have they forgot how to fight on foot?
HA - lancer balance should stay the same. What HA does atm is dehorsing lancers quite effectively, which is rendering them far from useless but is a nice way to support your team. Nothing wrong with this.
And if you get dehorsed by HA in a bad position (far away from the main clash), then that's probably your own fault imo.
i dunno about you guys, but I'v noticed an increase in HA (some sucky, some annoying(good))!
mmm i feel like making an alt myself...
Ok at least is a bit to much. But if you can get leed's horse down, your team stands a way better chance of winning. I mean, you guys get my point.I'll add this now. Forgot to do it way earlier :P
Ive tried my hand at HA lately, and found out that HA are only effective at lvl 30 and higher, they suck on lower levels. Mine is lvl 24 now, and can't hit a horse when I'm on trotting speed.I think HA's are fine, they are more annoying to my horse than to my health. And I agree 100%, they dont get good untill they finish their build.
Most "OP" HA are very good players (aka Jackie) who have masterwok bows, arrows and horses. Any infantryuy with the same amount if skill and masterwork stuff in their class would be "OP" aswell, but hey don't stand out, since melee is more common in cRPG, thus there are made less whine-topics/ nerf-topics about them, if not none at all (no insults intended)
I don't know if there's another topic (or thousand) about this, but I've looked on the front page. I don't bother reading through 100 sides eighter.
The Horse Archer is too OP. It's just wrong when a HA can kill 5 lancers or whatever without any problem.
The only thing a HA requires is a fast horse, and you can't kill him or her. So, what I'm suggesting is:
- Make archer damage done by horse less
- Require higher requirements to get rid of some persents of them (?)
- Set a maximum number of HA aviable through a game (?)
- Make the horse require one or two slots (Only if bow equiped?), then the HA can't carry much arrows
- Reduce fire-rate. (Actually more realistic as the horse makes it harder to reload).
- Add a 5PD bow not usable on horseback, with slighter better stats than the actual strongbow.
So, these are my suggestions, if some of you have any good ideas or comeback, I can sure edit the list.
I am not saying to get rid of horse archers, because they are realistic, and they are as everyone else, doing their job.
I only want them to be a little less dangerous... :)
HA's arent OP. Its the Strongbow thats waaaaaayyyy to OP
there is no counter to a team that is 100% horse archers.100% shielders, 100% archers, 100% crossbows, 100% high IF plate wearers. Someone should organize that match and see what happens.
nobody will ever do it though because they have balls.
people who aint got it always want to degrade their foes instead of working on getting their shit straight.That's because WHINING is much easier to 'accomplish' than actually getting skills.
lol. people who aint got it always want to degrade their foes instead of working on getting their shit straight.
the same way inf needs teamwork to kill mealy cav, the cav or inf needs to team up to kill ha.
i always thought it more fun to hurt or try killing one challenging opponent than kill 10 mediocre ones.
haters stop hating. noobs stop noobing. bitches.
WHAT r u talking about?? Ive seen many ppl try HA but most of them give up because its really hard. Ppl only see the annoying OP HA side but they forgot that HA is also extremely hard to play. archers rape u, lancers sneak up and rape u, OP xbow 1 shot ur horse, hidden pikeman ...blahblahblahjackie need 5 max, nerf looms
MAKE HA DEAL LESS DAMAGE??? I need fucking 19 arrows to kill Templar_PolePoop
Yeah, team should organize to kill ONE cavalry or ha target. You realized it's always about cavalry, nobody need to organize to kill one infantry or one archer, yet team should organize to kill one cavalry. Damn elitist.
the same way inf needs teamwork to killmealymelee cav, the cav or inf needs to team up to kill ha.
u suck equus africanus asinusballs. op states a bitchin about a ha killing five lancers w/o problems. im saying that lancers or inf have to team up to kill a good ha.
so actually, lancers are in the same position against a good ha that inf is against good lancers. aint elitist. and btw. lots of good inf out their that needs to be dealt with in teamwork.
and now pls feel like a drooling 5 year old because i had to break things down for you.
clearly youre so full of it that it blinds your mind.
edit: ha! found another censored word ^^
jackie need 5 max, nerf looms
Against Ha they are in better position than infantry but analogy is fine, but it don't invalidate my post. Niceargumentargumentumatad personam, do you feel cool ?
Anyone have chances to kill melee infantry 1vs1, even archers with no ps. Or at least fight back. Not everyone can fight back against HA or lancers with heavy lances - against infantry every retard can strike back (ok not every but every have the chance for it assuming basic knowledge about the game) and said infantry have to block the attack, horseman have to fail hard to be forced to block.
dont forget to use the word d onkey
equus africanus asinus. yay
Lol Lech got pwned on the thread he made about OP HA and so felt the need to come back here :lol: You got censored and had your post hidden (-10 :rolleyes:). Give up already.
There really wasn't a need to resurrect this thread again.
Torben's right. Not everyone should be able to fight back 1vs1. A dedicated archer will rarely stand a chance in melee with the lack of PS. Sure he can block a couple of times, but unless the inf is a complete douche then the lack of melee wpf also begins to tell. Simple fact is, not every class is going to be able to kill every class. It doesn't work that way, it never can, unless you make everyone wear exactly the same thing.
HA have plenty of counters, it just so happens that you aren't one of them and so feel the need to bitch about it.
thx, finally i know how towrightwrite melee. andnano, that wasnt an argument, just felt good to say it.
i played inf long enough, back when thefinn was around. and i love the fact that challenges must be overcome together. and i love killing people who have better starting positions. i fuckin love beeing the underdog.
and no. not everyone has the chance to kill in a 1vs1 inf situation. thats bull crap.
i like that you defend youre position, but i dont like youre position cause its gay. and its fun trolling so stop being fucking offended. after all, this is the internet.
Maybe you get pwned. And if you would be more intelligent, you would find out that Roran was responsible for resurrection.
Archers can fight back just fine with that 1 slot mace, Inhummanae do it all the time. It's not really that hard.
I'm not offended, why should i ? As i stated above, archer can fight back just fine. Against HA, inf don't even stand a chance to get into range thanks to stupid mechanic of horses (bump then hit lying target is most obvious, if infantry decide to chamber attack to damage horse or rider, shoot earlier, it's not like you can hit his shield, and even then infantry is stunned). equus africanus asinus.
Yeah, team should organize to kill ONE cavalry or ha target. You realized it's always about cavalry, nobody need to organize to kill one infantry or one archer, yet team should organize to kill one cavalry. Damn elitist.
I have also lost track of the amount of "Goretooth" safaris that we have organized.
It would appear so.hm might aswell use a lance
Unless employing the stop, wait, shoot, move method; I found the HA is now more of a "shotgun" wielder. Wherein, you ride so close to an enemy the entire cross-hair covers them and then you shoot.
hm might aswell use a lance
you must be trolling here...lance is pathetic now
Not really bow damage got fixed in the hotfix. Its pretty balanced now, though I think throwing might have been boosted a bit too much comparatively, keep getting 1 to 2 shot all the time again by people throwing weapons 3 times as fast as I can draw a bow.