OP Horse Archers

[Overdriven]

Except it take a lot of arrows to get any kills as HA. Most kills are lucky shots on a already damaged infantry. On an average 2h, it will take 5-6 arrows from my MW Strongbow to kill them, all whilst moving. HA takes arguably more skill than foot archery because you do have to shoot whilst moving. And that's no easy task. If I go one on one against an armoured 2h, it'll take me at least 15 arrows to kill him because it's damn hard to hit whilst moving. I'd argue that HA is genuinely a bit more skills based than foot archer, all for higher cost. But when you do kill someone you feel a greater sense of reward as a result. Because it takes a lot of practice, a lot of dedication to be good enough to judge movement speeds in relation to your own on a full speed horse and still be able to hit something.

I'll admit the best HA's are annoyingly good. As another HA I dread when I find Jackie or Tuenala on the other team because they tend to pick off other HA's first. But you can never balance by the best players. You balance by  the average players. And I'm an average player.

Normal gen 1 horse archers are not a concern, problematic are gen 7+ ones with fully loomed bow and arrows (and horse), as they deal respectable damage unlike gen 1 HA. Getting to gen 7 takes some time, so don't call 'try it'.

Yes but why should you be punished for that dedication? I've spent 6 generations looming my bow and now my horse. After that I'm going to spend more gens looming my arrows. 2h who loom everything ect don't get penalties? So why should we. Again you can't balance by the most dedicated, best players, you have to do it by the average players.

[Gunnarsn]

Maybe the horses should have more HP then.

[Overdriven]

Then you would never see HA's. Because an HA's job is to shoot down horses. And honestly against say a destrier, it'll take 5 arrows at least. Often 6-7. A courser will take 4. An Arabian can often only take 2, 3 at best, even palfreys and rounceys beat it on that front. Not all of the arrows I fire will hit. That gives you plenty of time to go and find your team and lure an HA into them.

[Chagan_Arslan]

I don't know if there's another topic (or thousand) about this, but I've looked on the front page. I don't bother reading through 100 sides eighter.

The Horse Archer is too OP. It's just wrong when a HA can kill 5 lancers or whatever without any problem.
The only thing a HA requires is a fast horse, and you can't kill him or her. So, what I'm suggesting is:
- Make archer damage done by horse less
- Require higher requirements to get rid of some persents of them (?)
- Set a maximum number of HA aviable through a game (?)
- Make the horse require one or two slots (Only if bow equiped?), then the HA can't carry much arrows
- Reduce fire-rate. (Actually more realistic as the horse makes it harder to reload).
- Add a 5PD bow not usable on horseback, with slighter better stats than the actual strongbow.

So, these are my suggestions, if some of you have any good ideas or comeback, I can sure edit the list.
I am not saying to get rid of horse archers, because they are realistic, and they are as everyone else, doing their job.
I only want them to be a little less dangerous...

you suck at killing HA

[Gunnarsn]

Chagan_Arslan
you suck at killing HA

Werther I suck or not is inrellevant. If my horse dies after three hits, it does not matter.

[Overdriven]

Werther I suck or not is inrellevant. If my horse dies after three hits, it does not matter.

Then you just have to fight as melee when your horse is downed. HA don't have the luxury of being able to do so. In reality we have to carry 3 sets of arrows seeing as we waste so many. We don't have the luxury of being able to fight once our horse is down unless we go and find a melee weapon from a dead person. In which case we don't survive long.

[Overdriven]

Apologise for the double post!

Suggestions :
Add a 5PD bow not usable on horseback, with slighter better stats than the actual strongbow.
OR   Make the strongbow not usable on horseback AND add a 5PD bow with slighter worst stats than the strongbow, for HA.
And you will also add to diversity this way. :S

I'd be for supporting the adding a new 5PD bow with better stats than a strongbow. Not worse stats though as it already takes enough arrows with the strongbow to do damage.

[Paul]

As a matter of fact mounted archers already have a (hardcoded) penalty to both damage and (animation) speed compared to a foot archer with the same stats and equipment. It takes 10 points in horse archery to lower this penalty to zero.

[Overdriven]

As a matter of fact mounted archers already have a (hardcoded) penalty to both damage and (animation) speed compared to a foot archer with the same stats and equipment. It takes 10 points in horse archery to lower this penalty to zero.

Thanks for the info Paul. I never knew that. I knew HA reduced the penalty to accuracy but I didn't know there was one to damage and speed.

Seeing as it's only really possible for an effective HA to reach 4 HA that sounds like it's penalty enough.

[Bulzur]

As a matter of fact mounted archers already have a (hardcoded) penalty to both damage and (animation) speed compared to a foot archer with the same stats and equipment. It takes 10 points in horse archery to lower this penalty to zero.

Interesting indeed to know. It's maybe only a little penalty though, and 6 horse archery lowers it quite a bit too. Since never saw any HA complaining about it. We ought to make some tests to know exactly what this penatly is.

Tears, when i'm speaking of better/worse than the strongbow, i was thinking of "only" a 1 point difference in reload speed OR accuracy, for example. Not enough to break the bows balance, but enough to give this small edge to foot archers.

And, i'm afraid i have to disagree with you Overdriven, i don't think playing an HA is that harder than playing a foot archer aiming for HA : As a foot archer, you have to read the flow to hit an horse in great distance. You also have to begin shooting at infantry from far away, else they'll have time to come reach you on foot. As a foot archer, you are also acustomed to tunnel vision, making you vulnerable to cavs and ninjas. Two class wich will never really bother a horse archer. And i'm not even speaking of when you have to flee because of 2handers ganking you, not being able to shoot them while running.
For an horse archer, you have to get the feeling of where to shoot when running, and you get is as easily/hard as the foot archer's feeling where to shoot to hit the horse mid distance going this way. And when "fleeing", you can still shoot without lowering your movement. You can also close the distance till ennemies, thus having better accuracy than foot archers far away, and go away when you're being chased/focused.

If i had to make a graphic, i'd say horse archer is probably harder in the beginning, but easier after some training, and totally worth it later. Whereas foot archers with 5 PD are "capped" to being "relatively" good, and still having the same counters as an HA, PLUS shielders, ninjas and cavalry.

Yep, i played horse archer, didn't like it, found it way more exciting to be on foot, especially when killing horse archers, but i feel underpowered compared to thoses HA with same skills and dedicated build.

[Elerion]

HAs are not overpowered. They are by far the hardest class to play well, and are utterly one-dimensional. Sure, they are annoying as all hell, but only a tiny fraction of HAs are actually good enough to be game changing. They are also essential to keeping lance cav at least somewhat in check.

Good lance cavs are infinitely more powerful than HAs.

[Gunnarsn]

Werther they are good or bad, when one team have no cav or archer/x-bows left and the other team got one ha, it completely destroy the game, but that's not really what the topic is about.

I'd say they should eighter be nerfed, or the horses get more hp. If horses get more hp, it might be easier for other cav to fight them. As it is now, its annoying and close to impossible.

[Lichen]

The only thing a HA requires is a fast horse, and you can't kill him or her.

You can't? So archers, other horse archers, crossbowmen,throwers, shielders, high IF tin cans etc are all at the mercy of horse archers? 'oh gawd they got horse archers/we're all gonna die!' Devs should just nerf everything (except 2h/poles of course) and be done with it. This is getting old.

[Seawied]

Horse archers aren't OP, just extremely annoying.

They have to sacrifice a lot to get that sought after 4 HA, their bow-selection is limited (although perhaps strong bow should be 2 slots,) and their damage is extremely low.

Its very difficult to hit anything with a HA. They are primarily an anti-cav build.

[EponiCo]

I'd say they should eighter be nerfed, or the horses get more hp. If horses get more hp, it might be easier for other cav to fight them. As it is now, its annoying and close to impossible.

If you make horses more resilient against arrows, then lancers will run around without fear of (horse) archers and horse archers will shoot at 2h instead. I don't know how that's fairer for infantry for who it's even more impossible to kill ha and just as impossible to kill lancers.
So HA weak vs infantry strong vs cavalry sounds far more balanced (not that any horse changes would make you better at killing horse archers since they use the same horses).