OP Horse Archers

[Siboire]

I know one good anti HA class: horse crossbowman
My alt is a HC and i love to 'drive by' at full speed with 10 riding and a courser. When my bolt hits his horse, either i kill it on the spot or a simple scratch will finish it. And once one foot, a HA is a prey to anybody!
That said it is indeed true that HA is a pest but not OP cuz it needs to be dedicated in order to be effective AND requires much more skills than infantry archer IMO (i tried both). Though one of their main counter to HA and cav got nerfed to the ground (throwing) so ull see more and more of both until they fix throwing.

[Cyclopsided]

there is no counter to a team that is 100% horse archers.

nobody will ever do it though because they have balls.

[Seawied]

I know one good anti HA class: horse crossbowman

a decent HA will top a decent HX. Shoot speed really comes into play in HA v HX combat.

[Glyph]

Then you would never see HA's. Because an HA's job is to shoot down horses. And honestly against say a destrier, it'll take 5 arrows at least. Often 6-7. A courser will take 4. An Arabian can often only take 2, 3 at best, even palfreys and rounceys beat it on that front. Not all of the arrows I fire will hit. That gives you plenty of time to go and find your team and lure an HA into them.

that's the problem you don't get enough time! i think the problem is that HA's can have all horses, just like toher cav. but any other cavalry can't run, because all the HA's can keep up. that's why they aren't OP in native. that should be changed

[Malaclypse]

Disagree with OP.  Not overpowered. Not even semi-viable until you have at least 18 agility for 3 HA, can barely kill anything before the build is finished, high upkeep, reducing fire rate isn't a "realistic" feature, so don't bill it as such. Watch some videos of people practicing the art of horse archery unload 5+ arrows at a 20mph gallop over the course of a half minute or less.

Horse archers are annoying, but as has been said, you have to sacrifice a lot to be viable as a Horse Archer, at which point you're a liability on foot. I'm going 15/24 on an alt. 5 PD, 4 HA, 8 WM, 6 Riding. That's it. In melee, I have no powerstrike, no wpf. I have no athletics to run on foot if I get dehorsed or the map isn't favorable for horse use. A team full of HA's on an open map would be devastating, true, but that's an issue with in-game balance based on character classes not the class itself.

Interesting indeed to know. It's maybe only a little penalty though, and 6 horse archery lowers it quite a bit too. Since never saw any HA complaining about it. We ought to make some tests to know exactly what this penatly is.

@Bulzur: What HA has 6 freaking horse archery!? Honestly, that's 36 agility. That'd leave room for 1-2 PD if I'm not mistaken? You do realize that HA as a skill takes 6 agility per point rather than the 3 per point every. other. skill takes?

[Siboire]

a decent HA will top a decent HX. Shoot speed really comes into play in HA v HX combat.

That is true if the HC cant outrun the HA ;) but at 10 riding with courser in an open map his arabian at 6 riding wont be able to follow u so he'll change target so it gives u plenty of time to reload and swoop by and shoot him a second time. Though in a smaller map or 'no-cav" maps ... Ya HC is screwed.

[Overdriven]

That is true if the HC cant outrun the HA ;) but at 10 riding with courser in an open map his arabian at 6 riding wont be able to follow u so he'll change target so it gives u plenty of time to reload and swoop by and shoot him a second time. Though in a smaller map or 'no-cav" maps ... Ya HC is screwed.

Who says that HA doesn't have a Champion Courser with 6 riding

[Farrok]

Horse Archer OP, Shielder OP, Archer OP, Crossbower OP, Horse Crossbower OP, ...

nerf or better delete all except twohanders and polearmers!

They have to sacrifice a lot to get that sought after 4 HA, their bow-selection is limited (although perhaps strong bow should be 2 slots,) and their damage is extremely low.

with a two slot Strongbow, it would be mean dead to all horse archers...a dedicated Ha need the 3 stacks of arrows(i use khergits, because bodkins are to less) to kill Horses and maybe some peasants...

when strongbow gets 2 slot weapon(this means atleast 3 slots, better 4 slots to use the weapon what is more than any other weapon)
the only choice would be khergit bow->low damage - damage malus = lowest damage possible..

the only solution for that would be to decrease the Ha skill to 5 agi perpoint, or even 4 agi perpoint so the damage malus is less than now.


the highest Ha Skill you can currently get is 4, when you want to kill anything...5 when you only want to kill half dead peasants or stun some unarmored enemies...even with 4 Ha you dont have the accuracy of a HC(and HC can still gets to 5 HASkill without sacrificing damage and is than pinpoint accurate, fast reloading and with good damage, though total useless in melee but HA isnt of use in melee either ;) though when i can kill a enemy with 0 ps and 0 wpf with a onehander with 10-20 hits than the enemy deserve it)


when you play a HA and do one mistake or stop your horse, you will be dead with a chance of 90% ...currently its the most difficult build to play(except from a dedicated peasant with melee stones ;)) and most HA, aren`t HAs...only Archers on Horse who stop when they shoot(and mostly short after that dead because of enemy xbow or archer)



but meeh all the complaining...it was way harder to play a HA back than when HASkill needed 9 agi per point but a real HA will play always a Ha even when he cant hit anything, dont do damage and die from the headwind while riding xD

[Cyclopsided]

Eh Malaclypse. I love you man but HA is really good even on 27-9, 9 PD 1 HA 3 riding. I've done it and you actually do the most dmg of any HA build and are completely viable as a foot archer. [27-12 with 2 HA is beast mode, but is dedicated]
 The penalty is not that bad with a couple HA skill.
I have a dedicated HA with 7 PD 3 HA 6 riding and it is very very accurate. I am more accurate on a horse than on foot. I have to say it is the single most annoying and effective build ever.
Got a couple instant 30 clones of friends with that build together and there was nothing to counter us in battle maps and we carried x5 on those character for 2 hours before we couldn't stand ourselves anymore XD. It was extremely effective, but it wasn't fun.

honestly HA is really really good. If you don't do anything stupid/risky you don't have any weaknesses. After playing it I think it may be OP still (even after the nerfs). There is no counter to an equal number of HAs with equal skill of enemies. A dedicated foot archer is supposed to counter HAs, but in practice that is just not true.

What is stupidly broken is bumpshooting people as HA. I mean wtf that is ridiculous. Shielders are not safe. As soona s the HA shoots enemy archers first ofc, then pikemen, then 2h and such while ignoring shielders. But if there is a lonely shielder a HA can just bump shoot them. Nothing they can do about it. it was really funny when I was the HA doing it... But let's be honest that shit is stupid. I can only imagine the anger they were going through...

[Siboire]

How could u aim well and ride a decent horse at 3 riding and only 1 HA? I find it hard at 4 HA and 6 riding... *getting his note pad in a hurry*

[Cyclopsided]

How could u aim well and ride a decent horse at 3 riding and only 1 HA? I find it hard at 4 HA and 6 riding... *getting his note pad in a hurry*

It isn't that bad. At full speed you are always going to be rather inaccurate as HA, and the dmg reduction from horse penalty after one HA skill is not much, the PD benefit to damage outweighs it by a lot. If you slow down and shoot at a distance [if you get that safe moment, as all HA know] Then you are just as accurate as on foot.

Besides most shots are medium range anyways so with 1 HA the reticule may be a bit big at gallop, but if you lead your shots like normal you are still going to hit JUST as often as higher HA skill. All this is from my experience of about 5 different HA instant level 30 builds. Best dedicated HA build is 27-12 with 2 HA for sheer damage at the cost of very little accuracy.
It gets 4 ath /2 HA /4 riding /9 PD /4 WM. No melee.

27/9 you can have a grip of PS so even though you have 1 melee wpf you will knock people out with a hammer
it isn't a build for fast HAs, but for a part time HA who wants to hit hard.

[Lichen]

I have a dedicated HA with 7 PD 3 HA 6 riding and it is very very accurate. I am more accurate on a horse than on foot. I have to say it is the single most annoying and effective build ever.
Got a couple instant 30 clones of friends with that build together and there was nothing to counter us in battle maps and we carried x5 on those character for 2 hours before we couldn't stand ourselves anymore XD. It was extremely effective, but it wasn't fun.

If the other team has any GOOD crossbowmen & archers then horse archers can be countered. If however they go for low priority targets instead of horse archers because they care more about their K/D ratio than winning the match then that's just bad tactics and the players fault.

[Cyclopsided]

If the other team has any GOOD crossbowmen & archers then horse archers can be countered. If however they go for low priority targets instead of horse archers because they care more about their K/D ratio than winning the match then that's just bad tactics and the players fault.

There has to be an equal or greater number of foot xbow/archers for that to happen. As it skews into larger numbers of say EXAMPLE: 10 out of 12 people on one team being HA and the other team with 8 Archers and 4 other things? The HA will win by a landslide. It won't be close.

EVEN EXAMPLE:10 HA 2 inf v 10 footarchers 2 inf?
HA have superior positioning choice and can ambush sections of the team at a time and will win due to having superior number and focus fire at individual locations.
OR, the funniest part, they can just bump shoot the enemy archers so they can't even shoot back!  bumps cancel the enemy archer's firing animations.

The only place archers have an advantage to HA is in dense city roofs where they both can't be bumped and limit HA maneuvering.

I'll repeat that I am not lobbying against them as someone who hasn't played them, but rather the opposite. I thought they were not very effective since there are like 3 total on the NA servers...
I was wrong.

[Siboire]

Nice infos, I'll try that next gen! But what horse do u use? Personnaly, whenever I played HA, range would have me as priority target so I always had to run for cover/teamates and my horse would fall fast to enemy archers (and with the current plague in NA) longbow/warbow shots would 2-3 shot my horse easily and as u know, dedicated HA does not run fast on foot...

Having only 3-4 riding must mean other dedicated cavs (6-7 riding) would easily get to u and lance you no?

[Cyclopsided]

Nice infos, I'll try that next gen! But what horse do u use? Personnaly, whenever I played HA, range would have me as priority target so I always had to run for cover/teamates and my horse would fall fast to enemy archers (and with the current plague in HA) longbow/warbow shots would 2-3 shot my horse easily and as u know, dedicated HA does not run fast on foot...

Having only 3-4 riding must mean other dedicated cavs (6-7 riding) would easily get to u and lance you no?

You'll take down their horses faster, and if you use defensive maneuvering you won't let anyone lance you if you are aware of them. Higher maneuver horses help. Desert horse if you are on the cheap side. Cataphract will always be the ideal HA horse but can only be used sparsely. Destrier takes a lot of arrows so it is good.
If lancers are an issue for you personally, 7 PD 3 HA 6 riding 6 WM is a more maneuverable HA build. You only get 1 athletics though...
it is my current HA build actually.