Author Topic: OP Horse Archers  (Read 17600 times)

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Offline Torp

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Re: OP Horse Archers
« Reply #165 on: June 27, 2011, 10:56:14 pm »
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Overdriven it seems like you aren't very construtive and don't really thnk about game balance - you just lobby for the items you are using yourself.

Lobbying for HA, lobbying for courser over arabian (since you are 'nerfing' yourself by using courser), lobbying for everything else you use - and whining for nerf for everything you don't use.

that results in many ppl not taking this trhead seriously - if you want to make a point, try to dig out some arguments and think about it in a bigger perspective.

Offline Overdriven

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Re: OP Horse Archers
« Reply #166 on: June 27, 2011, 10:59:48 pm »
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Overdriven it seems like you aren't very construtive and don't really thnk about game balance - you just lobby for the items you are using yourself.

Lobbying for HA, lobbying for courser over arabian (since you are 'nerfing' yourself by using courser), lobbying for everything else you use - and whining for nerf for everything you don't use.

that results in many ppl not taking this trhead seriously - if you want to make a point, try to dig out some arguments and think about it in a bigger perspective.

Urr I've been thinking about game balance. And so far every suggestion tips it heavily against HA. Most of the people arguing here are either pissed off cav or pissed off infantry who have never even tried playing as HA. The ones who have been thinking sensibly have argued that HA is more annoying than dangerous except for those very few who are actually quite good at it (more people than not argued this). But as is always said, you can't balance by looking to the few best players.

I've suggested several things that may help the situation. One being agreeing with the better 1 slot, unusable on horseback bow (without taking away the strongbow for HA), which would give a nice buff to archers as they'd have a wider selection and would possibly be able to take a cav counter. Another, suggesting that throwing will heavily help the situation (people seem to forget throwing was an incredible cav counter before it got nerfed). A couple of throwing axes would take down your horse no trouble. I have no problem with throwing being added and with it being there as a cav counter. I welcome it.

I lobby for the courser because most people, when they suggest a manoeuvre nerf, don't specify. They suggest it for all horses. But there is a big difference between all the horses and so it has to be taken case by case. In open plains a courser is significantly better because of it's speed. I use it to keep up with/stay away from all cav whilst having a decent amount of hp/armour/charge, seeing as I view my primary role as killing cav. Which isn't nerfing myself, it's just viewing my role differently. Others see theirs as annoying inf, or being able to manoeuvre on smaller maps.

So far you haven't actually argued against the point of refuting your strongbow unusable suggestion. You have just resorted to suggesting that I am talking rubbish. When in fact I've argued a solid case here, and in many other posts. So perhaps you should argue back. Or maybe you can't think of anything and instead result to petty comments.

EDIT: O and I haven't suggested a nerf for anything I don't use  :? Besides, the only class I haven't played some of is throwing (hence why I never comment in the throwing buff thread because I don't know what I'm talking about. I simply know it's completely disappeared), so when I suggest something, it's not because I'm biased from an HA pov. That just happens to be my main route at the moment.

Many people don't take this thread seriously, because it's not really a serious suggestion. I've looked at it in different ways. And from playing in the server many times and simply put, HA really isn't that dangerous. I've admitted it's annoying as hell several times throughout this thread, but it is only dangerous in the hands of those who really know what they are doing. And they are few and far between. In the EU servers at least. So honestly, I listen to those who have valid concerns and suggestions, and most sensible suggestions fit the bill for this mod in the bigger picture, not from a nerfing HA heavily pov when many have said it doesn't even need it. I don't listen to those who come in here ranting about HA, when in fact, you are just proving how annoying we can be.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2011, 11:24:28 pm by Overdriven »

Offline Torp

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Re: OP Horse Archers
« Reply #167 on: June 27, 2011, 11:29:25 pm »
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i really don't see this as 'my' discussion - and the strongbow thing was just something i suddenly thoguht off where you can either agree or not - CBA to argue which is why i'm not trying to take an active part in the discussion.

I agree that HA is hard, but it is also very very good if you are good at it - i'd say it's pretty balanced tough.

regarding the arab/courser question: They are balanced imo, it all depends on your playstyle.
If you like backstabbing people and running when you encunter aware enemies (also if you wnat mass kills), go for courser.
If you prefer cav duels, killing aware people and being able to move navigate small palces and groups of enemies; go for arab.

If you take a look at some of the best cav (Eu, and just posting the names that come to mind), they also use all the different hroses:
Tommyyy (Inactive) - Arab
Leed - Courser
Torben - courser
Chargan_Arslan - Arab

regarding your posts - i CBA to start some big offensive discussion, so i'll just leave it here.

Offline Overdriven

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Re: OP Horse Archers
« Reply #168 on: June 27, 2011, 11:44:05 pm »
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i really don't see this as 'my' discussion - and the strongbow thing was just something i suddenly thoguht off where you can either agree or not - CBA to argue which is why i'm not trying to take an active part in the discussion.

I agree that HA is hard, but it is also very very good if you are good at it - i'd say it's pretty balanced tough.

regarding the arab/courser question: They are balanced imo, it all depends on your playstyle.
If you like backstabbing people and running when you encunter aware enemies (also if you wnat mass kills), go for courser.
If you prefer cav duels, killing aware people and being able to move navigate small palces and groups of enemies; go for arab.

If you take a look at some of the best cav (Eu, and just posting the names that come to mind), they also use all the different hroses:
Tommyyy (Inactive) - Arab
Leed - Courser
Torben - courser
Chargan_Arslan - Arab

regarding your posts - i CBA to start some big offensive discussion, so i'll just leave it here.

If you don't see it as 'your' discussion then why post at all? Because you will most likely, and should expect to, receive a reply. And besides, you opened the exchange...

Anyway:

Any class is very very good in the right hands. But glad to see you think it's actually fairly balanced.

I'd argue against those play styles. But the point of the thread is in order to argue against HA. There's no point turning it into yet another nerf horses because of lancers (the play styles you focused on) thing.

As for any issues that people do have with HA. I think the sensible suggestions can be listed below:

Adding a 1 slot bow (possibly war bow) unusable on horse back.
Rebalancing horses on a horse by horse basis. Whether this is manoeuvre for HP or what I don't know, it has already been talked about in other threads ect.
Buffing throwing.

I really think that those are the 3 suggestions that will cancel out any arguments for HA/cav being OP. We shall always be annoying, that will never change. But if you think we are actually OP, then those 3 things, which have been considered in other threads, should be enough.

If anyone has anything decent to add, instead of raging (I have already apologised previously for any defensive attitude I take towards this thread), then I will happily consider them and work out a solution for those with genuine, and not raging, concerns.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2011, 11:47:54 pm by Overdriven »

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Re: OP Horse Archers
« Reply #169 on: June 27, 2011, 11:51:04 pm »
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I'd argue against those play styles. But the point of the thread is in order to argue against HA. There's no point turning it into yet another nerf horses because of lancers (the play styles you focused on) thing.

...

Rebalancing horses on a horse by horse basis. Whether this is manoeuvre for HP or what I don't know, it has already been talked about in other threads ect.

Can't talk about horse changing without talking about overall game balance, especially regarding anyone riding a horse. It will also afect other classes, though.

Offline Overdriven

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Re: OP Horse Archers
« Reply #170 on: June 27, 2011, 11:53:57 pm »
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Can't talk about horse changing without talking about overall game balance, especially regarding anyone riding a horse. It will also afect other classes, though.

I know but as soon as you go in depth it starts a big argument on a tangent. And I'd rather try and avoid that and keep this as specific as possible to HA. Horse changing has been discussed heavily in other threads. So I don't really want to go into specifics on it and will simply say I agree they should be rebalanced to an extent and leave it at that, rather than go into any details on how it should be. Especially because this thread was originally designed to be about HA being OP.

Offline Dezilagel

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Re: OP Horse Archers
« Reply #171 on: June 27, 2011, 11:55:23 pm »
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Urr I've been thinking about game balance. And so far every suggestion tips it heavily against HA. Most of the people arguing here are either pissed of cav or pissed off infantry who have never even tried playing as HA. The ones who have been thinking sensibly have argued that HA is more annoying than dangerous except for those very few who are actually quite good at it (more people than not argued this). But as is always said, you can't balance by looking to the few best players.

Oh poor you, are people not arguing along the exact same line as you? Are people suggesting that there is something wrong with HA being the most annoying thing in the game? Then maybe we should start thinking... Hmm... How could we possibly fix this... I know! Maybe we should make them less annoying by reducing the maneuver of their jetponies while buffing their hp to increase resiliance vs arrows, bolts and probably-much-needed-next-patch throwing, HA's worst enemy? A nice "burf".

NOO let's just blatatly ignore all opinions but my own, THEY MAY TAKE MY LIFE BUT THEY WILL NEVER TAKE MY JETPONYYYYYYYYYYY!!!

I've suggested several things that may help the situation. One being agreeing with the better 1 slot, unusable on horseback bow (without taking away the strongbow for HA), which would give a nice buff to archers as they'd have a wider selection and would possibly be able to take a cav counter. Another, suggesting that throwing will heavily help the situation (people seem to forget throwing was an incredible cav counter before it got nerfed). A couple of throwing axes would take down your horse no trouble. I have no problem with throwing being added and with it being there as a cav counter. I welcome it.

And where the fuck does melee infantry fit into this "balance" model of yours? How are they going to deal with superpowered stronbows? And the annoyance that is HA will still reign supreme.

I lobby for the courser because most people when they suggest a manoeuvre nerf don't specify. They suggest it for all horses. But there is a big difference between all the horses and so it has to be taken case by case. In open plains a courser is significantly better because of it's speed. I use it to keep up with/stay away from all cav whilst having a decent amount of hp/armour/charge. Seeing as I view my primary role as killing cav. Which isn't nerfing myself, it's just viewing my role differently. Others see theirs as annoying inf, or being able to manoeuvre on smaller maps.

Well smartass, because that jetpony of yours is so frippin' fast it needs to sacrifice something - in this case maneuver. The maneuver of horses is a problem across the board, not just for the Arabian (even tho that is where the problem shines strongest obv.). Nerfing the maneuver of the other horses OF COURSE requires a manueuver nerf for the courser aswell, internal balance you know? Otherwise all cav players will just choose the now-op courser (which today is FAR from a bad choice, many would say that it is the best all-around horse). How is that balanced?

So far you haven't actually argued against the point of refuting your strongbow unusable suggestion. You have just resorted to suggesting that I am talking rubbish. When in fact I've argued a solid case here, and in many other posts. So perhaps you should argue back. Or maybe you can't think of anything and instead result to petty comments.

lol.

That's all.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I (and many others I can assure you) are getting REALLY tired of your approach to this. You tell people to come up with valid arguments and suggestions and they do, then you just tell them off with bullshit like "but HA is hard" and "The arab is the only issue here", ignoring their reasoning in favour of your own idea of "balance", which is flawed in so many ways from other perspectives.

Just listen goddammit! And realize that you. are. biased. Just like everyone else around here! But that should not mean that you shouldn't be able to lead a rational discussion! Now take a step back, listen to what has ben said and think. "As a shielder, how would I think of this?" "As a lancer? "Does it fit into the big perspective?" "Strat?"

Grr... Hate writing posts like these.





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Offline Overdriven

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Re: OP Horse Archers
« Reply #172 on: June 28, 2011, 12:00:13 am »
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Long ranty post.

Well thank you, you just made replying a lot easier. You used the word 'annoying' instead of 'OP'. That already makes your post redundant. You can't nerf a class for being 'annoying'. You can when it is 'OP'.

Anyway. I've already stated in other posts some sensible things (read post #168) and apologised for my defensive attitude (due to my bias). So perhaps you should stop ranting now and get back on track.

Strongbows aren't super powered. Melee infantry should work with their team, perhaps their archers. And I've been trying to think of a way to help archers against horse bumping cav (I used to play as an archer so know how annoying it is).

Manoeuvre of horses is not a problem across the board. That has been agreed in several other threads and people have already recognised that you need to take the horses individually. Suggesting otherwise makes no sense. Otherwise every time a class got nerfed or buffed, it would be a flat out 1 up, 1 down, across the board. Which it rarely, rarely is. People have suggested the courser gets a speed nerf, which I've never argued against. But that's because speed is it's main. Manoeuvre isn't. Where as the Arabian the manoeuvre is the problem.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2011, 12:05:35 am by Overdriven »

Offline Bulzur

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Re: OP Horse Archers
« Reply #173 on: June 28, 2011, 12:02:39 am »
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It's annoying because it's OP.

Oh fu.., i just destroyed your all introduction with that, i'm sorry. Please carry on.
[14:36] <@chadz> when you login there is a message "your life as horse archer was too depressing for you. you decided to commit suicide. please create a new char"
[19:32] <@chadz> if(dave_ukr_is_in_server) then rain_chance = 98%;

Offline Dezilagel

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Re: OP Horse Archers
« Reply #174 on: June 28, 2011, 12:05:39 am »
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I know but as soon as you go in depth it starts a big argument on a tangent. And I'd rather try and avoid that and keep this as specific as possible to HA. Horse changing has been discussed heavily in other threads. So I don't really want to go into specifics on it and will simply say I agree they should be rebalanced to an extent and leave it at that, rather than go into any details on how it should be. Especially because this thread was originally designed to be about HA being OP.

And what kind of bs is this? Are you SERIOUSLY saying that we should stop discussing HA balance in a large perspective just because "there are other threads"? Are you SERIOUSLY saying that we should stop going into anything deeper than that they need to be rebalanced? As a developer, how would you react to that?

"We want HA rebalanced!"

"How?"

"Well, were not going to be any more specific than that, let's just say that they need to be"

"Uhm, ok...?"

And YES this thread was originally about HA being OP, i.e a discussion about HA in relation to other classes. So why the fuck should we stop discussing that and start.. ehm.. "discussing HA specifically", but not more specific that that they "need to be rebalanced".

FFS, if this is your atempt at "backing out", it's just sad. Bro it's not the end of the world if HA gets a slight tweak...
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Offline Overdriven

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Re: OP Horse Archers
« Reply #175 on: June 28, 2011, 12:15:46 am »
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And what kind of bs is this? Are you SERIOUSLY saying that we should stop discussing HA balance in a large perspective just because "there are other threads"? Are you SERIOUSLY saying that we should stop going into anything deeper than that they need to be rebalanced? As a developer, how would you react to that?

"We want HA rebalanced!"

"How?"

"Well, were not going to be any more specific than that, let's just say that they need to be"

"Uhm, ok...?"

And YES this thread was originally about HA being OP, i.e a discussion about HA in relation to other classes. So why the fuck should we stop discussing that and start.. ehm.. "discussing HA specifically", but not more specific that that they "need to be rebalanced".

FFS, if this is your atempt at "backing out", it's just sad. Bro it's not the end of the world if HA gets a slight tweak...

Anyway, I apologise to all if I come across as overly defensive!

Posted this a while ago because I know I can be considered defensive and argumentative when it comes to things like this.

When I've argued against this, it's been because I hate people's approach as much as I'm sure people hate mine. Too many posts have been random rants about how OP HA is without actually saying anything constructively and suggesting anything. So I've spent so much time arguing against them I may have missed proper suggestions and many of my posts have been non-constructive themselves because of this. I tend to get locked into arguments easily :lol:

Any way, to reiterate I apologise for my defensive stance and I shall try cool down a little.

I'm not saying stop suggesting things in a larger perspective. I'm saying is there really a need to launch into a big discussion about rebalancing horses in this thread? Could we just accept that horses need rebalancing/nerfing/whatever and that it would help the problem if there is one and leave it at that? Everyone knows the courser can be too fast, and the Arabian to manoeuvrable. It's been discussed 100 times in 100 threads. I'm sure the devs are already working on it if they are. And so I think a better approach would be to consider other options other than the nerfing horses things. If there are any other suggestions then perhaps those need to be discussed in depth, because they may not have before. Whereas the nerfing horses thing has been done to death and discussed in every which way.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2011, 12:19:14 am by Overdriven »

Offline Kafein

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Re: OP Horse Archers
« Reply #176 on: June 28, 2011, 12:18:08 am »
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Adding a 1 slot bow (possibly war bow) unusable on horse back.
Rebalancing horses on a horse by horse basis. Whether this is manoeuvre for HP or what I don't know, it has already been talked about in other threads ect.
Buffing throwing.



Again, I don't see how my three last standing melee friends will do againt an HA.

The first is simply an archery buff. Not really what we need right now. The second, I'm all for it, less maneuver/speed and more hp/charge. The third, will happen no matter what (hopefully) and will be a nerf for 2h, foot archers and melee cav too.


But still even with all those changes, melee (cav or not) can't do anything against an HA with positive EQ (not charging a pike etc.). Everyone seems to forget this. Foot archers can shoot and run but not at the same time. Melee cavalry can run but has get in melee range to hit. HA can run and shoot at the same time, and on top of that are the best for killing horses and barely at a disadvantage against foot archers, which are their best counter at the moment.


HA were dominating the medieval warfare for a reason, yet nothing really balances it. It is hard, but just as blocking is hard or foot archery is hard. Many melee spent weeks just getting better at basic blocking when the game was released. It takes time to build up player skills so no wonder everyone that just began playing HA now is bad at it. Give them a few weeks and you'll have HA that survive and kill. A few months more and you can potentially get Tuonelas and the like. Afaik, people that bought the game and started playing 2h did not became Phyrex-like in one day.

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Re: OP Horse Archers
« Reply #177 on: June 28, 2011, 12:21:16 am »
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Well thank you, you just made replying a lot easier. You used the word 'annoying' instead of 'OP'. That already makes your post redundant. You can't nerf a class for being 'annoying'. You can when it is 'OP'.

Did you even read my post? I NEVER SAID NERF HA! I suggested a tweak to make HA more resilient vs ranged damage (which many cav players are complaining is killing their horses too quickly, and I'm inclined to agree), while reducing their ability to wade just out of melee range and dodging ambushes, and since you proclaim yourself to be a cavhunter, (protector of the AFK'ers! Cmon, cut that bs) how is that a problem for you?). And yes of course you can tweak a class for being annoying, what is best for you? Annoying and balanced or not annoying and balanced?

Anyway. I've already stated in other posts some sensible things (read post #168) and apologised for my defensive attitude (due to my bias). So perhaps you should stop ranting now and get back on track.

(click to show/hide)

And how are you the one to decide what's sensible? All I see in this post is you trodding on with the same suggestions over again. I'm not going to comment the flaming.

Strongbows aren't super powered. Melee infantry should work with their team, perhaps their archers. And I've been trying to think of a way to help archers against horse bumping cav (I used to play as an archer so know how annoying it is).

Once again I ask you wether you actually read my post or not. I never said strongbows were superpowered, I asked how infantry would be rebalanced if a more powerful 1-slot bow was introduced. And why are you suddenly ranting about archers?

Manoeuvre of horses is not a problem across the board. That has been agreed in several other threads and people have already recognised that you need to take the horses individually. Suggesting otherwise makes no sense. Otherwise every time a class got nerfed or buffed, it would be a flat out 1 up, 1 down, across the board. Which it rarely, rarely is. People have suggested the courser gets a speed nerf, which I've never argued against. But that's because speed is it's main. Manoeuvre isn't. Where as the Arabian the manoeuvre is the problem.

Well, I do not really agree since nerfing the main strengths of the horses would just make them more the same. And what are these threads you are talking about? Please show me the thread where ppl agree upon nerfing the main strengths of the horses.
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Offline Overdriven

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Re: OP Horse Archers
« Reply #178 on: June 28, 2011, 12:22:41 am »
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Again, I don't see how my three last standing melee friends will do againt an HA.

The first is simply an archery buff. Not really what we need right now. The second, I'm all for it, less maneuver/speed and more hp/charge. The third, will happen no matter what (hopefully) and will be a nerf for 2h, foot archers and melee cav too.


But still even with all those changes, melee (cav or not) can't do anything against an HA with positive EQ (not charging a pike etc.). Everyone seems to forget this. Foot archers can shoot and run but not at the same time. Melee cavalry can run but has get in melee range to hit. HA can run and shoot at the same time, and on top of that are the best for killing horses and barely at a disadvantage against foot archers, which are their best counter at the moment.


HA were dominating the medieval warfare for a reason, yet nothing really balances it. It is hard, but just as blocking is hard or foot archery is hard. Many melee spent weeks just getting better at basic blocking when the game was released. It takes time to build up player skills so no wonder everyone that just began playing HA now is bad at it. Give them a few weeks and you'll have HA that survive and kill. A few months more and you can potentially get Tuonelas and the like. Afaik, people that bought the game and started playing 2h did not became Phyrex-like in one day.

I was trying to think of the better 1 slot bow thing as something that can make HA seem less advantages, give foot archers something against HA and allow them to take something anti-cav if they wanted. I'm not sure how it would play out in terms of a proper archery buff but I think it would help in the case with archery against HA and improve their ability as anti HA.

As for melee against HA. That was where I was hoping the throwing might come in. If they allow builds that can take throwing and be effective in melee (which I'm hoping they will). Then surely that would provide melee with an effective counter?

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Re: OP Horse Archers
« Reply #179 on: June 28, 2011, 12:27:47 am »
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Posted this a while ago because I know I can be considered defensive and argumentative when it comes to things like this.

When I've argued against this, it's been because I hate people's approach as much as I'm sure people hate mine. Too many posts have been random rants about how OP HA is without actually saying anything constructively and suggesting anything. So I've spent so much time arguing against them I may have missed proper suggestions and many of my posts have been non-constructive themselves because of this. I tend to get locked into arguments easily :lol:

Any way, to reiterate I apologise for my defensive stance and I shall try cool down a little.

I'm not saying stop suggesting things in a larger perspective. I'm saying is there really a need to launch into a big discussion about rebalancing horses in this thread? Could we just accept that horses need rebalancing/nerfing/whatever and that it would help the problem if there is one and leave it at that? Everyone knows the courser can be too fast, and the Arabian to manoeuvrable. It's been discussed 100 times in 100 threads. I'm sure the devs are already working on it if they are. And so I think a better approach would be to consider other options other than the nerfing horses things. If there are any other suggestions then perhaps those need to be discussed in depth, because they may not have before. Whereas the nerfing horses thing has been done to death and discussed in every which way.

Well this sounds a bit more reasonable, but just because other people are posting stupidly biased things doesn't mean you have to to "balance" it up lol :p

Ignore the stupid suggestions, bring forth the good ones instead!

And imo, there can never be too much discussion, that's what this forum is for right? If you want to highlight other issues than those concering horses in themselves, fine do so, but let people discuss what they want to^^

As for melee against HA. That was where I was hoping the throwing might come in. If they allow builds that can take throwing and be effective in melee (which I'm hoping they will). Then surely that would provide melee with an effective counter?

Throwing is not melee.

« Last Edit: June 28, 2011, 12:28:58 am by Dezilagel »
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