OP Horse Archers

[Wookimonsta]

Hmm, people seem to think that horse archers are op and seem to have thought so for a long time.
Lets look at 1v1.

A horse archer versus cav: Against light cavalry, (unarmored horses, be they lancers or 1h), the horse archer reigns supreme, unless he hits a tree or something he will win 9 out of 10 times. He can easily stay out of range and the enemy cav is a large (and soft) target. An enemy using armored horses of course has a much smaller chance of having his horse killed by the horse archer, but he also has a much smaller chance of catching up to him.
I think we can safely say, against other cav, the HA has a huge advantage.

A horse archer versus inf:
Versus pikemen: Pikemen are the natural cavalry counter, unfortunately, a pikeman has little to no chance against a horse archer since the horse archer can easily stay out of range of the pikemen and keep firing in.

Versus 2h: 2H are just plain fucked

Versus Sword and Board: Shielders do have the ability to absorb alot of arrows from the horse archer, unfortunately, many horse archers have learned to bump someone and shoot them in the face the same second.

Versus Spear and Shield: Spear and Shield have the best chance against a HA, they have a weapon with decent reach that can rear up a horse and also a shield to protect them. Unfortunately the HA uses the same tactic here that he uses against sword and boarders he charges at them and either bump shots them or releases the arrow as soon as the Spear and Shielder draws back to strike.
The problem here is the inf has to prepare his strike and in this time is exposed. Possible Solution: Bracing Spears and Bracing Spears on Shields, would mean protection from arrows while still allowing to deal damage.

HA versus ranged:
Xbowmen: xbows have a decent chance against HA. Unfortunately, if they miss their first shot, they never get the chance to reload. Then they are just like regular inf.

Archers: People say archers are HA enemy. But 1v1 the HA has the huge advantage of being able to fire while moving, whereas the archer has to stand still to fire. Also, if the HA has an armored horse, he can take ALOT of arrows.

Throwers: Probably the best chance versus HA. Throwing weapons do decent damage, and when coupled with a shield it can seriously challenge any horse archer. Their fast rate of fire and ability to block arrows make it (in my eyes) the only succesful counter in 1v1.

[3ABP]

As a matter of fact mounted archers already have a (hardcoded) penalty to both damage and (animation) speed compared to a foot archer with the same stats and equipment. It takes 10 points in horse archery to lower this penalty to zero.

For damage:
Maximum penalty is ~ 10% even with HA=0.
With HA=3 penalty is ~ 7%.
Yeas, really huge disadvantage.

...Watch some videos of people practicing the art of horse archery unload 5+ arrows at a 20mph gallop over the course of a half minute or less...

to the target within 5 meters from shooter. And (just watch those videos more) sometimes miss even on this over-closed distance. And targets standing still... don't moving at all.
Not shooting back and don't trying to kill shooter.

Every additional HA skill (point) decrease a penatly by 1%, but every additional PD add 14%

[Glyph]

As a matter of fact mounted archers already have a (hardcoded) penalty to both damage and (animation) speed compared to a foot archer with the same stats and equipment. It takes 10 points in horse archery to lower this penalty to zero.

but what if you make a seperate animation or something, so you can change it but acctually it's the same animation?

[Wookimonsta]

what bothers me is how do you nerf HA without nerfing other classes?
I guess one way would be to change what the Horse Archery Skill does, but that affects you as well if you aren't on a horse.
If you nerf their horses, you nerf all horses.
Perhaps horse + bow = less accuracy?
Or if you spawn with a horse a bow takes +1 slot?

[HentziTheHun]

If I see a guy with a throwing stuff then I usually let him alone and pass him hunt for easier or horsemen preys.
This can be a good advise

[Bulzur]

what bothers me is how do you nerf HA without nerfing other classes?
I guess one way would be to change what the Horse Archery Skill does, but that affects you as well if you aren't on a horse.
If you nerf their horses, you nerf all horses.
Perhaps horse + bow = less accuracy?
Or if you spawn with a horse a bow takes +1 slot?

Having a horse taking one out of the 4 slots might be a good solution. At least we won't see silly ha with 2 stacks of arrows and one 1h sword. And they call themselves dedicated. xD
Or just add "special" bows usable on horseback, with poorer reloading speed stats (and maybe other) than the current ones, and bingo.
Not having a real counter really makes them deadly to all. If they take more time to shoot, and maybe do 1 less dmg/1 less accuracy, then it will be an acceptable nerf.
I'm really waiting for solid arguments coming from HA explaining how their class is balanced.
All i've seen at the moment is "It's hard, try it, you'll see, we need rewards for playing dedicated class" and "HA got malus on horse, in terms of accuracy usually" (= to what i'll answer HA do more point blank shots than archers who NEED a good accuracy, if an archer fails his shot, he's in trouble. If an HA misses his, he'll do it again. And again.)

[Glyph]

Having a horse taking one out of the 4 slots might be a good solution. At least we won't see silly ha with 2 stacks of arrows and one 1h sword. And they call themselves dedicated. xD
Or just add "special" bows usable on horseback, with poorer reloading speed stats (and maybe other) than the current ones, and bingo.
Not having a real counter really makes them deadly to all. If they take more time to shoot, and maybe do 1 less dmg/1 less accuracy, then it will be an acceptable nerf.
I'm really waiting for solid arguments coming from HA explaining how their class is balanced.
All i've seen at the moment is "It's hard, try it, you'll see, we need rewards for playing dedicated class" and "HA got malus on horse, in terms of accuracy usually" (= to what i'll answer HA do more point blank shots than archers who NEED a good accuracy, if an archer fails his shot, he's in trouble. If an HA misses his, he'll do it again. And again.)

horse take up 1 slot is a good idea, but than the lances should be 1 slot again.

[Overdriven]

If HA are so OP why aren't there more of us? On any server with 100 people, you usually only see a max of 3 horse archers on one side. Often only 2, sometimes 1. I've never seen more than 3 on one team on a 100 person server.

That suggests to me that the build is either requires more skill, or so dedicated people can't be bothered with it.

Horse taking up 1 slot is not a good idea. HA need that number of arrows to do anything. On an infantry with good athletics, bunny hopping around, I can guarantee that if they are armoured, I can easily waste all 3 quivers trying to kill him. Bunched infantry is our friend. And single rambo cavalry are also our friends. You will completely destroy any average HA and it would be pointless unless you are one of the best. Even then it would add difficulty. Plus you would screw over other cav builds.

Berethorn, you said earlier than an HA can shoot 12 arrows in 30 seconds. I'd love to see a demonstration of a moving HA doing this and actually hitting something

As for the other person earlier who said they shoot stationary as well as foot archers. That's because you're stationary The penalty only kicks in when moving, and that penalty is really a bitch. On an open map you will be riding at full speed (if only to avoid arrows and other cav), even on many closer maps riding at full speed, or at least manoeuvring a lot is a required in order not to die. Doing this, whilst shooting and avoiding threats (even obstacles) makes it very difficult to kill people. Only bad HA stay stationary. I very rarely go stationary, if only to kill an archer who is putting arrows in my horse from a distance (near impossible when moving except for luck). Furthermore, the amount of close maps and infantry maps makes it also hard, as HA are near useless as footmen, except if you can find a good spot to hide and pop out to shoot every now and then.

To Kafein: You're talking strictly 1 on 1. Against a shielder an HA is balanced out by the fact they can't shoot through the shield. Yes bumping helps this, but only if you're good enough to bump and take the shot, without the shielder loljumpslashing. Fact is, as I stated above, it's rare to find more than 3 HA on one side (even when GK are all on the same team we only have 3 HA) and so it's rare that you get 1vs1 situations. Fact is, against more than 2 archers it's very difficult for HA.

I know you will say balancing 1vs2 is not balance. But I think it's balanced by the fact there are 10x more archers on servers than HA, 10x more infantry and 10x more other cav variations. If you nerf HA, you won't see any at all. But then that might be your goal

I'm really waiting for solid arguments coming from HA explaining how their class is balanced.
All i've seen at the moment is "It's hard, try it, you'll see, we need rewards for playing dedicated class" and "HA got malus on horse, in terms of accuracy usually" (= to what i'll answer HA do more point blank shots than archers who NEED a good accuracy, if an archer fails his shot, he's in trouble. If an HA misses his, he'll do it again. And again.)

Then make it your imperative to shoot down that HA before he does any real damage if it's so 'OP'. The same way I make lancers my targets because I know the better ones can do a lot of damage to my team. But I bet you don't simply because they aren't as OP in reality and the majority aren't actually game changing. There are only 2-3 good ones in the whole of the EU cRPG servers. Whereas there are far more good infantry and cav.

Archers should have high athletics. It's up to foot archers to stay aware and realise if anything is bearing down on them and so run away. I used to do so as a foot archer all the time. The only explanation for getting caught of guard is the fact you weren't paying attention.

As for the person earlier who said HA should be forced to use first person I'm not sure how many HA actually do, but I know I do simply because shooting from any other perspective is weird. Probably explains why I get lanced from the side so much lol. Or run into stuff a fair amount. But I hate 3rd person view. Weirds me out.

[Overdriven]

Didn't mean to double post.

[EponiCo]

1vs1 balance isn't everything.
You can do the same argument about horse throwers, 100% chance vs. 2h and polearms 1vs1. Yet once you killed him you are all out of ammo and can go suicide.
Shielder and crossbowman vs 2 HA? Crossbow hides behind shield, HA hides behind ... HA?

[Overdriven]

1vs1 balance isn't everything.
You can do the same argument about horse throwers, 100% chance vs. 2h and polearms 1vs1. Yet once you killed him you are all out of ammo and can go suicide.
Shielder and crossbowman vs 2 HA? Crossbow hides behind shield, HA hides behind ... HA?

Unfortunately admittedly unless both that crossbowman and shielder have shields they are screwed. From when I've been playing with HA in my team and we come across a situation, you know instinctively to go to opposite sides, that way shield cover means bugger all

But still. 1vs1 is not a good balancing argument in the context of HA, considering survival rates for HA are actually remarkably low compared to most other builds, and there are few of them. In reality I think that makes up for the lack of balance that 1vs1 offers. In one of the other threads HA were posting their kill death ratios. Most of us had negative K/D, if positive then only slightly. I'd warrant there are very few HA who actually have a good positive K/D. Unlike most 2h, archers, lancer and probably many shielders.

[Glyph]

If HA are so OP why aren't there more of us? On any server with 100 people, you usually only see a max of 3 horse archers on one side. Often only 2, sometimes 1. I've never seen more than 3 on one team on a 100 person server.

That suggests to me that the build is either requires more skill, or so dedicated people can't be bothered with it.

Horse taking up 1 slot is not a good idea. HA need that number of arrows to do anything. On an infantry with good athletics, bunny hopping around, I can guarantee that if they are armoured, I can easily waste all 3 quivers trying to kill him. Bunched infantry is our friend. And single rambo cavalry are also our friends. You will completely destroy any average HA and it would be pointless unless you are one of the best. Even then it would add difficulty.

Berethorn, you said earlier than an HA can shoot 12 arrows in 30 seconds. I'd love to see a demonstration of a moving HA doing this and actually hitting something

As for the other person earlier who said they shoot stationary as well as foot archers. That's because you're stationary The penalty only kicks in when moving, and that penalty is really a bitch. On an open map you will be riding at full speed (if only to avoid arrows and other cav), even on many closer maps riding at full speed, or at least manoeuvring a lot is a required in order not to die. Doing this, whilst shooting and avoiding threats (even obstacles) makes it very difficult to kill people. Furthermore, the amount of close maps and infantry maps makes it also hard, as HA are near useless as footmen, except if you can find a good spot to hide and pop out to shoot every now and then.

To Kafein: You're talking strictly 1 on 1. Against a shielder an HA is balanced out by the fact they can't shoot through the shield. Yes bumping helps this, but only if you're good enough to bump and take the shot, without the shielder loljumpslashing. Fact is, as I stated above, it's rare to find more than 3 HA on one side (even when GK are all on the same team we only have 3 HA) and so it's rare that you get 1vs1 situations. Fact is, against more than 2 archers it's very difficult for HA.

I know you will say balancing 1vs2 is not balance. But I think it's balanced by the fact there are 10x more archers on servers than HA, 10x more infantry and 10x more other cav variations. If you nerf HA, you won't see any at all. But then that might be your goal

Then make it your imperative to shoot down that HA before he does any real damage if it's so 'OP'. The same way I make lancers my targets because I know the better ones can do a lot of damage to my team. But I bet you don't simply because they aren't as OP in reality. There are only 2-3 good ones in the whole of the EU cRPG servers. Whereas there are far more good infantry and cav.

Archers should have high athletics. It's up to foot archers to stay aware and realise if anything is bearing down on them and so run away. I used to do so as a foot archer all the time. The only explanation for getting caught of guard is the fact you weren't paying attention.

As for the person earlier who said HA should be forced to use first person I'm not sure how many HA actually do, but I know I do simply because shooting from any other perspective is weird. Probably explains why I get lanced from the side so much lol. Or run into stuff a fair amount. But I hate 3rd person view. Weirds me out.

i saw 4 of them in one game an hour ago.

i'd like to see more HA's that take a bow, 1 arrow stack, shield and onehander. it is quitte effective really. and not so damn anoying as deticated ones.

jackie chan(almost)

with 4 HA skill, at 3m(10ft) you won't notice a f*cking thing of that penalty.

HA's can and will avoid archers and anything that can do anything against them.

maybe there are 10 times more archers, cav and footmen in a game then HA's, but HA's have 10 times better chance

another reason why you pick out lancers is because they are often away from the inf and archers that are their only chance against HA's

true

i think it is a pretty good idea, i also hate HA's because they can keep an eye out on everyone while turning and stuff and still make kills and survive. with 1st person they wouldn't be able to do that as much.


but for all HA's that post here, that something is difficult never is a reason for something not being OP

[Murchad]

I think HA's are pretty balanced now.
In the past i have been for all proposed nerf

Here are a few things that i thought of while reading this post.

No one mentioned dodging. it is very hard for any archer to hit you if you are good at dodging or weaving.
Hiding behind objects, most maps have plenty of places to hide/reload/ambush
Horsearcher vs footarcher i have done both and as footarcher i have never had any problem with HA's you have way more powerdraw as footarcher and can take cover from other archers much easier.

Horsearchers have artificially inflated k:d ratios
a good horsearcher will not waste arrows shooting at people who are dodging or at shields. he will make best use of arrows, this often means shooting at thin skinned targets (may be peasants or not)
people with plate armor and IF take so many arrows that unless your team is getting slaughtered by that char it is better to let others take them down.

some people mentioned crossbows not being good against HAs
I beg to differ. unheirloomed xbows out in the open are not good. but if you have cover or a loomed xbow you are probobly the best counter to HA's

i take out HA's all the time with an unheirloomed no wpf crossbow on my polearms alt.

[Overdriven]

i saw 4 of them in one game an hour ago.

i'd like to see more HA's that take a bow, 1 arrow stack, shield and onehander. it is quitte effective really. and not so damn anoying as deticated ones.

jackie chan(almost)

with 4 HA skill, at 3m(10ft) you won't notice a f*cking thing of that penalty.

HA's can and will avoid archers and anything that can do anything against them.

maybe there are 10 times more archers, cav and footmen in a game then HA's, but HA's have 10 times better chance

another reason why you pick out lancers is because they are often away from the inf and archers that are their only chance against HA's

true

i think it is a pretty good idea, i also hate HA's because they can keep an eye out on everyone while turning and stuff and still make kills and survive. with 1st person they wouldn't be able to do that as much.


but for all HA's that post here, that something is difficult never is a reason for something not being OP

I said on one team.

Why should HA who want to be dedicated do that?

Jackie Chan is pretty much the best regular HA out there atm...of course you're gonna die when he's there The same way you would against the best lancers, 2H, archers or crossbowmen.

As I said before...HA actually have remarkably low survival rates judging from what I've heard of peoples K/D's.

They can, but eventually if they do that for long enough, they will either die, their team will die and they will be the last left and will inevitable run out of arrows and have to die, or their team will win anyway. The majority of HA's aren't game changing like many other builds are.

No the reason I pick out lancers is because they are the biggest threat to my own team. I could equally pick out 2h who move away from archers. But I don't, my first target is always taking out horses. Because cav will kill any of our archers and infantry who are presently engaged. It's got nothing to do with the lack of presence of archers more to do with the fact they are my biggest threat both to me and my team. Just like I'll take out an enemy HA first if possible, because I know that enemy HA will be doing the same thing I am.

Making HA only 1st person possible is no problem with me. But I don't think it's possible.

That something is difficult is a reason for it not being OP. Because most average players can't do it well. Again you're judging OP by players such as Jackie and Tuenala, or even GK's own Fru and Hentzi. You can't judge by the best. You judge by the average. And average HA do distinctly worse than average infantry or other cav.

EDIT: Missed a point. 4HA requires 24agi. That's a pure dedicated build directly built for being able to kill you off horseback. At anything less the the penalty is very noticeable. Especially on a courser. The number of points required to do that immediately makes up for any imbalance suggested. HA are put simply, shit in any other capacity.

[EponiCo]

As I said before...HA actually have remarkably low survival rates judging from what I've heard of peoples K/D's.

That's because everyone hates them. When I have the chance to kill a horsearcher I will do it, even if it's the last thing I do.