I agree with this changes, also I agree to adding requrimenet like PD to xbows and making Arbalest 6PD like Rus and Long Bows.
Well its clear that EU_1 is ''dying'', there is usually alot more players on EU_2 when i look. Even EU_7 has constant activity. So if the devs wont listen to the ''QQ'', then the player count on the servers speaks for itself.
I agree with this, so +1 from me.
Whiney bitches gonna whine.
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More at 11.
I think they are some good suggestions, but ultimately unnecessary. People are always going to bitch about ranged, or horse ranged (both of which are the biggest bane to my class, but I suck it up and deal with it).
"I'm alright, Jack" again
Being on a horse puts you in a way better position to deal with HA's than on foot
Not a single downvote...you broke cRPG forum with your balanced suggestion
Ranged and cav player then
If you have nothing constructive to add besides "i'ma complain about complainers", "QQ MOAR" "deal with it" then get your shit poster tag back please
Nerf all archers except me, please
I am being constructive. I'm suggesting people learn to adapt, and not blame others for their problems. Find a way to overcome the obstacle without crying that it exists in the first place. Mind you it's the same people (over the past 2+ years) who always cry that something is too powerful, and it's usually in regards to ranged or horse ranged. I'm also suggesting that developers and players don't listen to the same whiney bitches to decide what's happening in game.
I normally don't even take throwing weapons on my 2h, and when I do, I'm certainly not "ranged" (I'm lucky if the accuracy of the war darts I take allow me to hit someone 10 feet away). I'm definitely "infantry" on my 2h alt.
Getting all in one from last nerf archery topic i suggest to:
1. Revert patch buffing non loomed archery gear. This measure was made to make things "fair", but in a "overplayed" class the term fair ceases to exist to avoid the chaos we're dwelling with in-game
2. Decrease amount of arrows per quiver (17 or 16 bodkins on +3 should be ok). When I heard this change was going to be put in, I got the shivers. It's a ridiculous buff to Horse Archery, and foot archery as-well. As an archer you should make every arrow count, and not spam because you have X arrows till the round ends. If you're out of arrows, pick up some, and make them count.
3. Reduce fire ratio for bows while shooting from horseback (devs done it to HX, so i think they can do it for bows) Gods yes...
4. Lower missile speed for low tier bows (Long bow should have highest missile speed, but it stay just like it is atm, rest should have lower missile speed with rule: lower dmg -> lower missile speed) This always got on my nerves, no one wants to use 2 slots bows, when a horn bow can be way more devastating, viable, and fast while being able to carry a proper melee weapon. (ratio wise). It's a must.
5. Lower a bit amount of dmg added by arrows Tweaking the damage yet again on specific body part hitboxes is still needed. Surviving an arrow to the face makes no sense, while 2 arrows on the arm(etc) are deadly (balance wise isn't a good thing).
IMO as an archer after this patch I'll be forced to stop spamming arrows if I would like to keep some for end of the round, and i'll have lower dmg (if i'll use non loomed gear)
Plenty archers are using non loomed bows (i can see it because i'm using hireloom models boss pack), so after patch they will GTX from archery or will start using slower and less acurate, but stronger and more expensive bows. HA will also stop to being a raiding gatling guns.
Nice suggestion... Maybe remove bows and add ranged 2h weapons?nice offtopic
Nice suggestion... Maybe remove bows and add ranged 2h weapons?
Kafein
You are talking about Increasing accuracy, but atm 3 and less PD bows are like sniper rifles combined with semi-automatic guns. with tatar bow i have a pin-point accuracy.
The loom thing should not go, if damage should be nerfed I'd like to see it a global 2 damage nerf to all throwing/bows and then a 15 damage nerf to all xbows. Just because you nerded out grinding for 400 hours doesn't mean you sholud get benefits.You should read more carefully. I'm talking about Archery only.
En-dotter, I know that suggestions will hit the most bows up to 4 PD. That also means that wyour beloved bow will also havea na nerf.
Only thing wich you will have to learn again is aiming with a bit slower missile speed, dmg nerf will be noticed by all archers, but that will be tiny (1 or 2 dmg in my opinion) nerf.
It looks like you want to have a laser blaster made of cheap tatar or nomad bow. Your bow will stay still freaking fast and accurate, only missile aseed will decrease, nothing more.
ATM even short bow have higher missile speed than Long Bow... ubershit...
Kafein
You are talking about Increasing accuracy, but atm 3 and less PD bows are like sniper rifles combined with semi-automatic guns. with tatar bow i have a pin-point accuracy.
You should read more carefully. I'm talking about Archery only.I don't believe nerfing archers without nerfing xbowies and maybe throwers is a good idea, I'm well aware of all that, I don't believe it's fair that just because they don't have looms archery should be way less playable for them than for standard players, I'd rather just see an all around slight damage nerf.
Global nerf for dmf will come from nerfing arrows dmg. Max dmg you can get on bows will be same as we have now on non loomed items (because looming bows is only changing accuracy and speed atm). Reverting byff patch for non loomed bows will hit only guys who is playing this class because "it's so OP, i can fight it back, i'll use it to" and they have non loomed equip.
Seems that you dont pay attention to the bow(s) i use. I use tatar bow, horn bow and long bow. All for different situations. This isnt about my "fav" bow and i think i shoot as badly with nomad/tatar as i do with long, so i dont need to "adjust" to the nerf adjustment u are proposing. Maybe cus i use different bows i dont know... Anyway im sick and tired of "nerf archer" threads and constant whining of 2h heroes and archers-wanna-suck-up-to-2h-heroes. Before nerfing ranged (for the nth time) maybe nerf all stabs. Maybe resolve wse 2.0 issues, maybe suggest something useful for this game, like fixing things that are really broken and stop bitching about stuff that kills u.
And yea, you are the long bow user, and at this point as every child would say: "Well, you know... i was like... he had a long bow and like, he like cant do shit to like me... and i like used like nomad like bow and like i like killed him so easy like and he rage quit. Then he like, went to the forum and like he said like NERF NOMAD BOW CUS LIKE THEY KILL ME AND IM SAD". Srsly man get a grip...
Calm down and write in a contructive manner, steevee havent insulted you.Yes he did. This entire thread he made is an insult to me and i cant calm down. But tnx for your concern.
Also one more thing about speed differences between "small" bows and "big" bows. It has been mentioned when the patch was implemented and it was discussed afterwards. Big bows used heavier arrows and small bows used light arrows. Big arrows - heavy - heavy means slower and more damage. Small arrows mean light - light arrows mean more speed and less damage. Its up to you to choose speed or damage (like bastard sword vs great maul).
Also one more thing about speed differences between "small" bows and "big" bows. It has been mentioned when the patch was implemented and it was discussed afterwards. Big bows used heavier arrows and small bows used light arrows. Big arrows - heavy - heavy means slower and more damage. Small arrows mean light - light arrows mean more speed and less damage. Its up to you to choose speed or damage (like bastard sword vs great maul).But don't you use bodkins with your Horn bow?
EDIT:
Yes he did. This entire thread he made is an insult to me and i cant calm down. But tnx for your concern.
Seems that you dont pay attention to the bow(s) i use. I use tatar bow, horn bow and long bow. All for different situations. This isnt about my "fav" bow and i think i shoot as badly with nomad/tatar as i do with long, so i dont need to "adjust" to the nerf adjustment u are proposing. Maybe cus i use different bows i dont know... Anyway im sick and tired of "nerf archer" threads and constant whining of 2h heroes and archers-wanna-suck-up-to-2h-heroes. Before nerfing ranged (for the nth time) maybe nerf all stabs. Maybe resolve wse 2.0 issues, maybe suggest something useful for this game, like fixing things that are really broken and stop bitching about stuff that kills u.
And yea, you are the long bow user, and at this point as every child would say: "Well, you know... i was like... he had a long bow and like, he like cant do shit to like me... and i like used like nomad like bow and like i like killed him so easy like and he rage quit. Then he like, went to the forum and like he said like NERF NOMAD BOW CUS LIKE THEY KILL ME AND IM SAD". Srsly man get a grip...
Getting all in one from last nerf archery topic i suggest to:
1. Revert patch buffing non loomed archery gear.
2. Decrease amount of arrows per quiver (17 or 16 bodkins on +3 should be ok)
3. Reduce fire ratio for bows while shooting from horseback (devs done it to HX, so i think they can do it for bows)
4. Lower missile speed for low tier bows (Long bow should have highest missile speed, but it stay just like it is atm, rest should have lower missile speed with rule: lower dmg -> lower missile speed)
5. Lower a bit amount of dmg added by arrows
IMO as an archer after this patch I'll be forced to stop spamming arrows if I would like to keep some for end of the round, and i'll have lower dmg (if i'll use non loomed gear)
Plenty archers are using non loomed bows (i can see it because i'm using hireloom models boss pack), so after patch they will GTX from archery or will start using slower and less acurate, but stronger and more expensive bows. HA will also stop to being a raiding gatling guns.
A realism argument in a balance threadWhich i didnt make, but cmp or chadz or someone else who explained why they did what they did. I just "quoted it". I dont have time to actually do a proper quote but its up to you to believe me or not and to check it out or not.
trust me, i have no problem to shoot back and kill guys using pew pew bows i learned it. For me bigger problem are guys with x-bows. I want to change only one thing in low tier bows: missile speed, nothing else. It should be logic relation Stronger bow-> Higher dmg-> Higher missile speed. It's comming from fundamental phisics laws.
Which i didnt make, but cmp or chadz or someone else who explained why they did what they did. I just "quoted it". I dont have time to actually do a proper quote but its up to you to believe me or not and to check it out or not.
Speed and penetration have nothing to do with each other. Penetration depends on pressure. Pressure depends on force and surface. Force depends on change of impulse which is equal mΔV/Δt. The greater the mass and the shorter the Δt the speed hasnt got much influence. Why? Lets say Δt is equal in both shooting from long bow and nomad bow so we can have easier calculation. MW Nomad bow would have ΔV of 50 and long bow would have ΔV of 42 (since it goes from max speed to 0). The ratio is 50:42=1:1.19. So if the arrow mass is 50% higher on long bow then you would have 50*m for nomad bow and 42*1.5m for long bow and that is 63*m for long bow. Meaning long bow with 16% less speed than nomad bow has 26% more penetration.
As a high lvl, fully loomed pure archer you could survive those changes just fine I guess. An archer hybrid though, who already takes only 1 quiver and is bound to low tier bows will be completely destroyed. I tried going 4 PD after the respec and am using my bow primarily for sniping enemy ranged and agi runners, hence carrying one quiver of tatars ( because with 2 there is no footwork for melee fights, even though I would have the spare slot ). Shooting armored inf with 4 PD is just a waste ammo in most cases.
So what would happen ? Most hybrids would probably go pure longbow bodkin archer, even more ranged damage, even more "Steevee's", even more QQ. I sure would go back to pure longbow archer. I understand your intentions Steevee but nerfing a class to make it less desirable to play to reduce their numbers is just poor game design. Neither I think that the ranged situation we have right now is good but I am sure there are enough ways to reduce numbers without actually having to mess with any stats.
long bow 43 dmgomg i didn't know that my bow is so powerfull...
omg i didn't know that my bow is so powerfull...
sorry for double post
Read my previous post Stevee. Also long bow has poor physical properties compared to recurve bows (like rus, tatar) and whatever nomad bow is. A lot of force used to pull the long bow is not transferred into the projectile, while tatar bow design transfers majority of that force into the arrow. Dont use physic to counter me. You will not win the argument man. ;)It looks like you read my post not carefully enought. I compared bows to each other dividing them into 2 clases: solid wood and compound
Im having my drink right now. And dont get me wrong, i respect you as a player a lot but with those posts i dont think i respect you as a guy who is suggesting stuff.
What is the problem now?Problem is as same as at the beginning. When I go on c-rpg site, click shop, then arrows i can see 4 kinds of arrows with same weight per quiver. It means that there are not lighter arrows for small bows and heavier arrows for big and hard hitting bows.
Getting all in one from last nerf archery topic i suggest to:
1. Revert patch buffing non loomed archery gear.
2. Decrease amount of arrows per quiver (17 or 16 bodkins on +3 should be ok)
3. Reduce fire ratio for bows while shooting from horseback (devs done it to HX, so i think they can do it for bows)
4. Lower missile speed for low tier bows (Long bow should have highest missile speed, but it stay just like it is atm, rest should have lower missile speed with rule: lower dmg -> lower missile speed)
5. Lower a bit amount of dmg added by arrows
IMO as an archer after this patch I'll be forced to stop spamming arrows if I would like to keep some for end of the round, and i'll have lower dmg (if i'll use non loomed gear)
Plenty archers are using non loomed bows (i can see it because i'm using hireloom models boss pack), so after patch they will GTX from archery or will start using slower and less acurate, but stronger and more expensive bows. HA will also stop to being a raiding gatling guns.
...I think i saw Kafein first mentioning, that the cause for the increasing ranged are ranged players in themselves. As there is no other valid counter, people switch to ranged, resulting in a positiv feedback loop.
(...treating the symptom and not the cause). Number of archers is a symptom... Find the cause and fix it...
... Maybe remove bows ...or quota
Number of archers is a symptom... Find the cause and fix it...
Well, tbh, if you like, make yourself a stf or something and I will teach you to melee, and then you might enjoy it and stop shooting. and thats one less buttmy old friendIm on my cav on eu1 and archer on eu2. And there is nobody that could teach me to melee cus i suck at it and i will always live to shoot stuff. Playing cav is just making me wanna play archer more.
Im on my cav on eu1 and archer on eu2. And there is nobody that could teach me to melee cus i suck at it and i will always live to shoot stuff. Playing cav is just making me wanna play archer more.
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PLease come and play EU1 for a day, im sure you will quickly change your mindThat's what I keep thinking whenever some 'MURICAN feels entitled to come in here and call us out on our "QQ".
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5. Lower a bit amount of dmg added by arrowsMaybe i don't show my intensions clear enought.
By how much and what reason? Overall you're suggesting another general nerf to archery.
1. Revert patch buffing non loomed archery gear.The problem with your propostion is, you want to nerf almost every single element of archery same time. Decrease damage, decrease missile speed, decrease amount of arrows. I agree with green changes, but I don't think whole archery is broken atm, especially archery with 2 slot bows. The problem starts with 1 slot bows, which are way too effective after missile speed change. Horn Bow after missile speed change has damage similar to Rus Bow, while being faster, more accurate, 1 slot. Almost all players who joined archery recently uses Horn Bow, because it's now way too good bow. Maybe just revert this change and see what will happen then?
2. Decrease amount of arrows per quiver (17 or 16 bodkins on +3 should be ok)
3. Reduce fire ratio for bows while shooting from horseback (devs done it to HX, so i think they can do it for bows)
4. Lower missile speed for low tier bows (Long bow should have highest missile speed, but it stay just like it is atm, rest should have lower missile speed with rule: lower dmg -> lower missile speed)
5. Lower a bit amount of dmg added by arrows
That's what I keep thinking whenever some 'MURICAN feels entitled to come in here and call us out on our "QQ".
It has been said repeatedly that the amount of ranged on EU1 is way higher than on NA1. And at least for me that is the whole issue. I don't mind the damage taken by an arrow, I don't mind the headshot capabilities from across the other side of the map (actually I do think accuracy is too high or the head hitbox is too big)... my only real issue is the amount of them.
There are some maps with a prominent roof... those are the maps where you can easily see the whole problem - it's crawling with bows and xbows. Even Autobus had to admit the other day "that it's not supposed to be like this". And you can easily see the player numbers on EU1 dropping with every single day passing.
And this "2h hero charging archers" routine is bullshit too. In easy 90% of the cases I see a melee player peek around a corner, spotting 3 archers and turning around instantly. Before he even reaches the saving wall to hide behind, he's either dead or has 2 arrows in his back... Nowadays most melee fights are behind some walls or any other kind of cover to be found. Some maps have known "pockets" for melee where most of us meet up and then gank it out but even those rare moments get ruined quite a lot of times cuz suddenly 3 archers appear and start shooting into the melee fights. If the damage wasn't already bad enough, the stagger by an arrow hit, opening your block of the incoming swing kills you for sure. Personally, I hate those moments cuz I had the right block on time ready and just died because someone clicked on me from miles away and I couldn't do anything about it.
I don't care how it's done but I just hope that the people responsible and in charge see that something has to be done to get the amount of ranged players down.
First... I use to be in Fallen.... so I played a lot on EU servers lol. Second... I was on EU for several hours yesterday. I enjoy the challenge. Third.... being shot like that is totally realistic. If you don't want to get shot when you peak your head around a corner then be a shielder. Every class has an anti class. Shielders are the anti-class of ranged.As you probably noticed while reading my post, I didn't demand a nerf. I want their numbers reduced. Just that and I am a happy Ninja.
We can agree to disagree. I'm not stating that I am 100% right and my opinion is the only one that counts lol. I understand where a lot of people are coming from. But this is my opinion. Ranged has been over nerfed regardless of what server you play on.
Maybe i don't show my intensions clear enought.
I wont to lower dmg on arrows because they are only missiles. Of course they are dealing dmg but most of dmg should be dependent on kind of bow you are using.
Short bow (25c dmg) + Tatar Arrows (8c dmg)=33c dmg 60+2x202= 464 gold
Yumi (28c dmg) + arrows (5c dmg)= 33c dmg upkeep: 606+2x11= 628 gold
when we add that short bow is faster and have higher missile speed and lower requirements it looks like we have something wrong here.
I know that PD increases dmg, and capping thing about PD over req, but with that we can make cheap, annoying as hell horse archer.
I want to balance not only archers, crosbows needs even more a ballance, but i'm not an expert in x-bows
As you probably noticed while reading my post, I didn't demand a nerf. I want their numbers reduced. Just that and I am a happy Ninja.
The problem with your propostion is, you want to nerf almost every single element of archery same time. Decrease damage, decrease missile speed, decrease amount of arrows. I agree with green changes, but I don't think whole archery is broken atm, especially archery with 2 slot bows. The problem starts with 1 slot bows, which are way too effective after missile speed change. Horn Bow after missile speed change has damage similar to Rus Bow, while being faster, more accurate, 1 slot. Almost all players who joined archery recently uses Horn Bow, because it's now way too good bow. Maybe just revert this change and see what will happen then?
Crosshair compare - Long Bow vs Horn Bow:
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Having 190 WPF in archery, you can keep this accuracy for ~1.5 second with Long Bow, and ~2 seconds with Horn Bow, so Horn Bow has advantage here as well. Because of high shooting rate, much higher missile speed and better accuracy, Horn Bow now feels more like a gun. Damage of Horn Bow is also too high, because higher missile speed increased it's damage. In my opinion, missile speed patch was a mistake, it made lower tier bows, like Horn Bow, super accurate shooting machine with completely fine damage. Those bows are cheaper and requires less PD for a reason, they shouldn't be as effective (even more effective at the moment) than high tier bows.
...I'm talking about archers only, because i'm an archer and last time i were using x-bow were over 2 years ago.
Steevee's suggestions: make no sense to me, since they hit all archers, and only archers.
...
Maybe i don't show my intensions clear enought.This wouldn't change much. Let's say we nerfed all arrow damage by 2.
I wont to lower dmg on arrows because they are only missiles. Of course they are dealing dmg but most of dmg should be dependent on kind of bow you are using.
Short bow (25c dmg) + Tatar Arrows (8c dmg)=33c dmg 60+2x202= 464 gold
Yumi (28c dmg) + arrows (5c dmg)= 33c dmg upkeep: 606+2x11= 628 gold
when we add that short bow is faster and have higher missile speed and lower requirements it looks like we have something wrong here.
PLease come and play EU1 for a day, im sure you will quickly change your mindChange my mind to what? I merely approved or disapproved anything, just tried to examine the offered suggestions.
I use to be in Fallen.... so I played a lot on EU servers lol. I was on EU for several hours yesterday. I enjoy the challenge. I've been working nights for a while now and I come on EU almost every evening/morning. Finally being shot as you described is totally realistic. If you don't want to get shot when you peak your head around a corner then be a shielder. Every class has an anti class. Shielders are the anti-class of ranged. Shielders are a completely inappropriate counter to ranged right now. You can't argue shielders counter ranged as well as ranged counters shieldless inf, or cav, or even other ranged. There is a fine line between a simulation and an action game. CRPG became more of an action game because of multiple ranged nerfs. Warband was always an action game. And unlike in a simulation, player skill in Warband does evolve. As people learned to defend in melee, the average melee TTK increased tremendously, while the ranged TTK remained the same, hence why ranged got regular nerfs in cRPG to keep it in line with the effectiveness of melee. I spent almost 10 gens as a 2h and I rarely feared ranged lol. They were a non-factor most of the time. I'm glad they buffed them a little bit with the WPF thing. It forces inf to use tactics and that seems to be the root of most people's concern. They want an action game and I want a simulation.
I wouldn't mind a re-balance if need be. I've never been an archer/xbow so I don't know anything about it. But they shouldn't be nerfed anymore than they have been.
We can agree to disagree. I'm not stating that I am 100% right and my opinion is the only one that counts lol. I understand where a lot of people are coming from. But this is my opinion.
Yea but think about it.... the only way to reduce their numbers is to nerf them so badly that people quit playing ranged and start playing other classes lol. Other classes GTX servers when there are too many ranged characters around. This would be a nice way to regulate the amount of ranged if there actually was a class other than ranged that made ranged GTX servers. Obviously such a class does not exist, the best choice when there are a lot of ranged is to bring one of your ranged characters. Furthermore if you are a ninja then I bet money you are somewhat of an agi build built for dueling. (18-24?) So range is your nemesis. However consider this..... if you are more of a duelist and your character is BUILT for dueling then you have an automatic advantage in every dueling situation. I see guys all the time on the duel server who kick the shit out of everyone..... then get killed early and often on Battle because their build isn't designed to defend against ranged. And of course who complains most often about range? Those guys lol. Why? Because it's their anti-class. They are generally faster and use faster weapons than everyone else (and of course light armor) giving them a tremendous advantage in 1 v 1 situations. If they get surrounded by melee they simply turn and run. Unless.... they... get... shot..... So in their mind they SHOULD be able to kill anyone.... and they are right.... if only that pesky cheating fuck ranged would go away lol.
Of course I take nothing away from you.... I don't know you.... but I've seen it a thousand times on NA. I spend a lot of time in the duel servers and some of these guys beat the hell out of me. It's just funny to see them complain in battle because they get shot.... while I hold up pretty well in battle because I'm wearing enough armor (not to mention I sacrifice some speed for ironflesh) to withstand a few arrows. It's all about builds, roles, and versatility. ANY.... agi class.... outside of shielders will bitch about ranged more than the average. But don't other classes bitch about Agi builds? When you ninja someone don't they think you should be nerfed? How about the amazingly fast Katana and Longsword heroes lol. I personally dislike encountering ranged basically no matter the class I play. I can deal with melee characters in melee even if I'm playing my archer alt just fine, and I can dodge or block cav attacks for as long as it takes to be boring. Projectiles are, unlike other threats, simply obnoxious even when I can shoot back. The two classes I played the most are shielder and cav, arguably thest closest things you can imagine to ranged killers. Every single second, my biggest issue was ranged, even when I added throwing stuff to my shielder. Not that I did die more to ranged than others, but rather that being attacked by inf or cav results in enjoyable gameplay while being attacked by ranged doesn't.
Anyways it's just my opinion. I'm not a fan of nerfing a class just to turn the battle server into a giant duel server.
there is no huge Strat battle going on
http://c-rpg.net/?page=strategusbattlesupcoming#!?page=strategusinfobattledetail&id=6048attackers less then 40 players, defenders equal 40 or not much more.
Archers in Vikingr were nerfed until they became something of a challenge to play
You are probably drunk if you didn't see that suggestions I mede are actually nerfing archers in some way...
Better wise up and stop blindly lobbying for your class rangers because soon we won't have anybody to shoot at
You are probably drunk if you didn't see that suggestions I mede are actually nerfing archers in some way...
Archers in Vikingr were nerfed until they became something of a challenge to play as but the few archers in the mod were highly respected and still literal game changers for their teams.
But we CANNOT do that in crpg atm
You say shielders are not an effective counter to ranged?
Let me ask you this.... 3 sheilders charge three archers.... who shits their pants first?
Simple enough....
As far as the ranged nerf's... did they do it to make sure Ranged stayed balanced to melee or because melee whined and cried like little girls every time they got shot?
This game is the closest thing to a real combat situation. And even if it is more of an action game YOU have the ability to adjust your build to changing circumstances. That's part of the fun in CRPG. It's also why you don't see as many archers on NA1 as you do EU1. NA tends to build heavier and use more ironflesh. EU tends to build faster characters. It's not always the case of course but by in large most people would agree with that statement. Therefore archers are not as effective on NA1. We tend to have more throwers IMO and it's precisely because of the builds people use. I suggest that if you aren't happy with ranged. Build a character more equipped to deal with them.
If you don't want to do that then carry a practice shield.
Anyways that's just how I see it. I think it's total BS that the powers that be would nerf an entire class simply because people don't want to adapt. At the very least a practice shield will solve 40% of your problem.
The shielders. 3 archers run in 3 different directions. What do the shielders do ? If they each go for their own archers, they get shot in the back by the others. If they all go for one archer, that archer can just keep running, the group of shielders will never catch him, as the other archers will pepper them with arrows and force them to face away from the running archer.
That's exactly what I've been doing for the last 3 years, because other classes can be easily dispatched even with the least fitting build. If I want to counters shielders I bring an axe and murder them. If I want to counter 2h or polearm I bring a ranged alt and murder them from afar, if I want to counter cav I bring horse ranged, ranged or just a pike and murder them. If I want to counter ranged I use my shielder main and stay in a corner with my shield up while not murdering anybody, but I at least I stay alive yay. What a great way to counter things, by not killing them.
As I said, I could hardly be more adapted to ranged while not being ranged myself. Yet as a shielder I would more gladly face a group of three 2h axemen than a group of three archers.
Sorry I disagree... If three shielders are tracking three archers of equal skill I put my money on the shielders each and every time. The only way your scenario plays out the way you described it is if one of your shielders blindly charges without any sense of awareness or tactics. In your example I say kudos to the archers for great teamwork and SHAME on the shielders for being dumbasses. That's kind of my whole point. Awareness is everything. The effect of ranged on a server is that it FORCES melee to fight together and be AWARE of their surroundings.
The easiest way to win every round is to pull the enemy inf away from their ranged and kill them.... then kill the ranged. However people don't want to do that. They do not want to use tactics.... they want to charge... and that is why they die. That's the common denominator between NA and EU. It doesn't matter what server you play on most people would rather bitch about ranged and demand nerfs than simply apply a minimal amount of tactics to the battlefield. I don't know if it's because they have no concept of it or simply are too lazy. Either way if I can work both servers and have minimal trouble with ranged and I don't even carry a shield then why can't other people? Why am I not having the same problems everyone else is having? Because I feel that if I get shot.... it's my fault.... not some OP ranged class lol.
Furthermore I expect to be shot. That's why I sacrifice 1 ath for some ironflesh. I may not be able to do what a pure duelist build can do.... but I am versatile and usually stay alive. It's a choice and rather than nerf an entire class who have already been nerfed so badly that MOST quit..... people should consider adapting to the circumstances.
Look.... I'm not saying you are wrong.... I'm saying I disagree. I LIKE what this has done to the server. I LIKE the fact that range is relevant EVEN when they pop an arrow in my head. If it's killing population (which I don't deny) then the devs will probably roll it back. I'm ok either way. But I was kind of getting tired of how mindless this mod had become. I LIKE the fact that people have to work together again because it's not easy anymore. However it appears that most people want an action game and I want a simulator. It is what it is.
1. Revert patch buffing non loomed archery gear.
2. Decrease amount of arrows per quiver (17 or 16 bodkins on +3 should be ok)
3. Reduce fire ratio for bows while shooting from horseback (devs done it to HX, so i think they can do it for bows)
4. Lower missile speed for low tier bows (Long bow should have highest missile speed, but it stay just like it is atm, rest should have lower missile speed with rule: lower dmg -> lower missile speed)5. Lower a bit amount of dmg added by arrowsThe fuck????
Personally I don't think cRPG should cater the sick fantasies of melee chauvinists to keep battle alive at all costs.
It's almost kafkaesque to me. When I write assumption A is true because EU skill is higher than NA it's obviously ironic. How can I even know that? I fear Thomek actually believes in that and all the other stuff he writes. I think you all believe in what you write. That is scary, almost surreal.
Ranged is unfair because they shoot people. Shieldless melee is the only true way. Anything that forces melee to adapt destroys the fun of them and thus has to be destroyed by devs in return. Remove ranged, remove cav, remove shields because manual blocking is the only true way - the heart of Warband. Then we have our brave new world. This is sick.
So what do I think why cRPG loses players? Because its getting old. The capable main devs work on their own project. The dabbling substitute devs are inactive(Tydeus, myself) or busy elsewhere. There is no influx of new players due steam sales or player migration from other mods that died. Deal with it and wait for the new game. Personally I don't think cRPG should cater the sick fantasies of melee chauvinists to keep battle alive at all costs. For me that would destroy the heart of the gamemode.
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He's telling people to stop playing cRPG, because if they do that at this point they might lose interest in M:BG as well. Paul is still butthurt over the fact that I knew about M:BG before him, and that he wasn't part of that crew. Still remember how he acted after the grand reveal. So it's obvious he wants M:BG to fail.
He's telling people to stop playing cRPG, because if they do that at this point they might lose interest in M:BG as well. Paul is still butthurt over the fact that I knew about M:BG before him, and that he wasn't part of that crew. Still remember how he acted after the grand reveal. So it's obvious he wants M:BG to fail.just wow
Why are people saying there are many ranged on EU 1?
wat? I hope that is satire. If not, get help.
Well I'm joking about the part where I said you want M:BG to fail. Of course you don't want that. But part about being butthurt after grand reveal is true. It ended after few days, but I've noticed your posts and the way you acted on irc. But we're humans so it's ok.
You like to tease me, and that's fine. For the most part, you have a point. But you also have your weak side and I like to point that out from time to time, dear unbalancer.
Ughhh Leshma. Sometimes you make fairly reasonable posts, but then you come out with nonsense posts like this one and the one before.
I'm not sure if the former is just an act and the latter is the real you, or vice versa, but you need to think about what you post man :)!
EU melee players you can always migrate to NA.agi player with bad ping = no thank you
It's almost kafkaesque to me. When I write assumption A is true because EU skill is higher than NA it's obviously ironic. How can I even know that? I fear Thomek actually believes in that and all the other stuff he writes. I think you all believe in what you write. That is scary, almost surreal.
Ranged is unfair because they shoot people. Shieldless melee is the only true way. Anything that forces melee to adapt destroys the fun of them and thus has to be destroyed by devs in return. Remove ranged, remove cav, remove shields because manual blocking is the only true way - the heart of Warband. Then we have our brave new world. This is sick.
So what do I think why cRPG loses players? Because its getting old. The capable main devs work on their own project. The dabbling substitute devs are inactive(Tydeus, myself) or busy elsewhere. There is no influx of new players due steam sales or player migration from other mods that died. Deal with it and wait for the new game. Personally I don't think cRPG should cater the sick fantasies of melee chauvinists to keep battle alive at all costs. For me that would destroy the heart of the gamemode.
Shieldless melee is the only true wayshield cost:
Shield weight bothers me for some time because they simply seem too heavy realismwise.Wait wait wait. THAT bothers your for realism, yet 10kg for a quiver of arrows is fine???? Da fuck are you smoking?
Fair enough, though it still bugs me how some of those damned plate guys are allowed to run faster than an archer that is wearing a linen tunic
Instead of making quivers weigh more than they should, can you not put a work around where every 1PD a character has will reduce their speed by a certain percentage, so that, that way "heavy" archers are slower than light archersHeavy archers are already slower than light archers, because they have less athletics/AGI. Plus, no archer should be moving fast at all if kiting archers are supposed to be toned down.
Speeding up shielders and thus hoplites that way would give them an additional edge in melee over 2h and shieldless polearm - the most vocal whiners. So it won't happen I guess.
I am not adressing any specific topic like ranged or shields, I just cant understand that balance policy in general.
I probably asked this more then once now but cant remember reading an answer. Why do you care ? Its "your" game. When you hold back a ( in your subjective opinion ) necessary gamechange just to please a certain lobby, how can anything good evolve from that ? This is the whole reason we have people who spend more time crying on the forum than playing the actual game, because they know devs wont stick to their decisions given enough QQ is provided. I am not adressing any specific topic like ranged or shields, I just cant understand that balance policy in general. There is nothing wrong with constructive feedback of course but as long as people can expect a better reward from forumlobbying rather than adapting we will always see the former IMO.probably because more and more peoples ignore yours posts
So Paul suggest that we buff archers an make em able to kite again, and half the wieght on shielders.
Huehuehue sounds like a good plan or nut...
probably because more and more peoples ignore yours posts
Where did I say that I want to make archers be able to kite again? I just don't like the way their speed was nerfed.
Buff archer hybrids, remove that silly speed nerf, raise armor archers can use without sacrificing wpf, give every archer synergy bonus in melee category and nerf the shit out of mounted ranged. After you're done, give us another free respec. That way almost everyone will spec to archery/melee hybrids, gameplay will consist of shooting, then a bit of fighting. We will eradicate other ranged species (xbows/throwers) and there will be less whine on forums. The best will win, because we'll be on equal ground.
You see, by giving me ability to have enough wpf in every melee category (trihybrid), you done something right. I don't cry about shieldless melee anymore, because I can pla poleamrs/twohander/swashbuckler at will. Do the same with ranged hybrids and results will be the same. Pure builds are for my old friends.
Also remove ammo looting for all ranged inc throwers.Go kill yourself
Archery is generally boring. But if you spice it up with occasional duel, it can be fun. Shooting from sniper aka xbow is boring any way you put it. Throwing is fun but it's like showing middle finger to melee guy. Just when he expects a proper fight you throw crap at him.
Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim
let arrows in c-rpg to make dropshots and i'll make HS like this one, or maybe better ones :D
Anyway, dmg would be really small due to arrows speed, but shooting over walls to some targets could be awesome :D
We have had that in the past, with missile speed and I think maybe a gravity tweak. Not sure how it happened, but for one very brief patch I could drop arrows over a rooftop and hit the xbows trying to reload on the other side. Also helped shooting over your teammates. I got used to it, but most people screeched so loudly it only lasted a day or two at most. I liked it.
How to nerf archery, without destroying it.Stop making guides for archers :rolleyes:
i must admit that over the last few days i have not been raging about archers at all, more about throwers and HT's. 1 throwing spear to the body from Torost that took 80% of my health, i have an 8 IF and 65 Body Armour character, he wasn't even moving, although i do think this was a freak occurence.
He threw a throwing spear and bumped karasu which killed him at the start of the round from 100 %. He took off 90 % of Tor's health as well with one throw. I've heard about him in teamspeak. :D
To be honest, with the double xp there has been a lot more infantry returning to play a bit, making the ranged pressure much less noticeable.
penalty to ranged wpf should be much higher than it is now if you go over 10 weight...
for ex Dave have effective weight counted to wpf reduction over 30, and he is still sniping ppl, it shouldn't works like that...
What if they introduce wpf synergy effects to throwing and archery, but nerf amount of arrows and rebalance bows again? (it's just silly that those low level bows are so effective)So if changest you suggestet i will have around 180 in archery and over 100 in melee? Archers too OP, more than now. :)
Of course, synergy for ranged classes can't work like it does for melee. It should only raise melee proficiency and it should scale with ranged proficiency. For example, if an archer or throwers spend most of his wpf in archery/throwery and he has 8 WM, he gets around 70 wpf in 1h/2h/polearms. That way, with minimal further investment they could get to magical number of 100 wpf in desired proficiency. But to counter that, max wpf in ranged category should be nerfed. Currently it's possible to have max 183 wpf in archery and not sure how much in throwing with 8 WM all spent on ranged proficiency. With this change it should be 175 wpf if you spend all points in ranged, or 170 if you spare some for further melee wpf investment. Also with 9 WM it should go up to 180 wpf, 10 WM 185 and so on.
You should also reword melee synergy. There shouldn't be scenario where it gives more than 200 wpf in one category. Buff trihybrids a little bit and nerf those dual melee hybrid minmaxers such as San :P
chicken! chickeeen! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=dhRUe-gz690#t=215)(click to show/hide)
I also mentioned bow rebalance, in case you didn't read the whole thing. Currenly, those twat bows are too powerful. They need to be nerfed.
Also it's time to nerf hard Longsword, HBS, SMS, Morningstar and many other 2H weapons that's cheaper than Flamberge. Those twat weapons are too powerful. They need to be nerfed.
The problem is not about archers. Problem is - too many whiners wanna have omnipotent build that can use 1 weapon in all situation.
That is stupid, because warfare must promote versatility. This is CRPG only problem, because even Native MP classes is balanced. Infantry without shields or secondary ranged weapon is cannon fodder, archer without melee is glasscanon etc. Add to this CRPG crazy armor rating, fantasy weapons like sniper xbow, german-danish swords of dreams - and viola - you've got insoluble problem with balance.
Also it's time to nerf hard Longsword, HBS, SMS, Morningstar and many other 2H weapons that's cheaper than Flamberge. Those twat weapons are too powerful. They need to be nerfed.I dont get that , why only 2h weapons are there?
The problem is not about archers. Problem is - too many whiners wanna have omnipotent build that can use 1 weapon in all situation. That is stupid, because warfare must promote versatility. This is CRPG only problem, because even Native MP classes is balanced. Infantry without shields or secondary ranged weapon is cannon fodder, archer without melee is glasscanon etc. Add to this CRPG crazy armor rating, fantasy weapons like sniper xbow, german-danish swords of dreams - and viola - you've got insoluble problem with balance.
To be honest, I'll rather have small amount of uber archers like Bagge, Stevee or even that annoying Shokoshugi than bunch of fairies running around with regular machine gun bows.pierce dmg for all bows will always cause problems because that kind of damage bypass armor, and with all of that ranged players nowadays
Not sure why and who did it, but achery loom changes and bow/arrow rebalance is maybe the worst idea in history of cRPG. All it did was to create horde of STR, for fun, alt, noob archers who have no time to grind gear. While that seems fair to new players, everyone who's not an archer and also dedicated long time archers suffer cause of it.
Revert the bow balance (Long Bow, only pierce bow) and quiver balance (old weight and values, no magical Bodkin tip) and you'll fix both HA and Achery Horde issue. Archers will fight among themselves to acquire looms, some will even retire their builds to get new, optimal Long Bow build and that will lower their numbers.
pierce dmg for all bows will always cause problems because that kind of damage bypass armor, and with all of that ranged players nowadayskeep the pierce but implement bloodfrenzy mode :twisted:
it can be totally annoying
keep the pierce but implement bloodfrenzy mode :twisted:
when you would kill 2 guys shortly after each other, you dont get staggered by arrows anymore for 1 minute, 30 more seconds with every additional kill while bloodfrenzy would be active.
+ you dont get staggered/interrupted
- you dont get hint/a trigger other then listening, that you were hit by an arrow, therefor possibly unaware of ranged targeting you.
Why are mongol bows so much better than european gear?
If some new guy posted this I would take it seriously.pffff :lol:
I don't see a reason to nerf archery at all? :?
That's only assuming you can fix the current problems in some other and more pleasant way.
Since I am no dev I can't. But I do know for sure that if we had 1000 nerfs and the problem still persists, the 1001st nerf won't help either.
Hence don't nerf anything, don't upset a (admittedly huge) part of the community for no good reason, and better find another solution. I think the period for nerfs is over, for a long long time now. The game is definitely overnerfed.
Since I am no dev I can't. But I do know for sure that if we had 1000 nerfs and the problem still persists, the 1001st nerf won't help either.OVER WHAT?
Hence don't nerf anything, don't upset a (admittedly huge) part of the community for no good reason, and better find another solution. I think the period for nerfs is over, for a long long time now. The game is definitely overnerfed.
OVER WHAT?
it is crpg forum
am I right?
no?
Since I am no dev I can't. But I do know for sure that if we had 1000 nerfs and the problem still persists, the 1001st nerf won't help either.
Hence don't nerf anything, don't upset a (admittedly huge) part of the community for no good reason, and better find another solution. I think the period for nerfs is over, for a long long time now. The game is definitely overnerfed.
You are ignoring the fact that the very high skill ceiling of melee combat means that melee TTK increased over time, while the low ranged skill ceiling did not let ranged TTK increase. Melee and ranged weapons were nerfed and armor buffed, but ranged had to be nerfed more in order to maintain something vaguely resembling balance when it comes to TTK. If we had bows capable of oneshotting people at 300 meters like in 2010 today, then we'd be in bigger trouble, yet it wasn't that much of a problem back then because melee fights were much shorter too.
Before I write my answer I need something clarified: does TTK mean "time to kill"?
Yes
Then I have the following answer: if "K" is removed as an absolutely needed condition to win, "TTK" becomes and negligible factor. Hence remove K (=battle mode)
That's a bit simplistic. Even if the goal of the game mode becomes flag control or something else, it won't change the fact that to get to that objective you will have to kill people, as well as to prevent the other team to control it. In other words, changing the gamemode will not remove the need to damage and kill some enemy players.
Buffing archer melee (Actually it is just buffing archers.) -Tried, doesn't work.
When?
Drop your bow and arrows, like good xbow players do. Whats the problem?
I know that untill the weight nerf gets reversed and archers can fight again, such measures are meaningless. The result speaks for itself.
Losing my class? You've read it before, when the enemy comes for you it's likely you'll lose the area where you dropped your gear, once more of them come. That can't be a serious suggestion.
Dave does it, Fried does it, Blackbow does it/did it, Bagge does it.. and so it goes... If you want to be PURE archer with no melee wpf, pay the price!
Asking to be able to kite like you used too, makes you look like a noob...
What archers where able to do, when they could kite was op like hell....
Adapt an use the excellent 1h´s like everyone else..
Also there are alot of good archers that does excellent with the 0 slot 1h´s Its not the rest of us fault that u suck at melee
A simple Kantian ethic..
...
IMO Shielder should be weaker than 2h/pole, as you don't have to block. nerf shield
There should not be an easy choice to just grab the most expensive 2h/pole and armor and go to town. There should be real dilemmas which there are not. nerf heavy 2h/pole
Cav should truly be high risk/high reward. Now it has the lowest risk. nerf cav
Ranged is incredibly lame to die from. Should be equally lame to play. nerf ranged
IMO we have to make the class as lame to play, as the lameness it imposes on others. (For Archers and Xbow: Make them weaker aka Nerfs ffs)
Make classes fun to play, that creates fun for others.
I can live with your "nerf everything but my class" rants but dragging Kant into this is pushing it. Claiming that only shieldless melee is fun for everyone and thus is the only class that has a right to exist seems to be more A.H. than Kant.
Aaaand back to reality..
What measures do we have? (We don't have much beyond buffs/nerfs/changes to stats at this point)
Buffing archer melee (Actually it is just buffing archers.) -Tried, doesn't work.
IMO we have to make the class as lame to play, as the lameness it imposes on others. (For Archers and Xbow: Make them weaker aka Nerfs ffs)
The same can be said about all classes, but also in the positive sense:
Make classes fun to play, that creates fun for others.
Only then will we see a game that is most enjoyable for most. A simple Kantian ethic..
Imo, if you want to kill people in this game without dealing with manual melee combat, you should be a freakin master at what you do. Nerf ranged weapons to oblivion but increase headshot damage, accuracy and speed i.ex. Nerfing helmets could be done, would reward everyone that has enough skill to go for the head, melee and ranged too.
IMO Shielder should be weaker than 2h/pole, as you don't have to block.
There should not be an easy choice to just grab the most expensive 2h/pole and armor and go to town. There should be real dilemmas which there are not.
Cav should truly be high risk/high reward. Now it has the lowest risk.
Ranged is incredibly lame to die from. Should be equally lame to play.
All of this could and can be done by item stat adjustments.
anyway.. I guess you all know my positions on all of this by now.. I'm also a bit wasted so sorry to digress..
But on a serious note.. This is actually how I see it, although I'm fully aware that this is not something that will happen! The "Classes" that we have should give rewards according to the effort, skill and brains involved in playing them.. Or we will always see this unbalance once the skill level hardens and good players actually start playing and abusing their classes power.
Back in Warband beta I started out as a melee-centrist; hating on cav, ranged and even shielders for being easymode low-skill classes. I hated because I didn't know. I rarely played anything different than melee.
Archery was fine for a very long time, we had few, but good, dedicated and high level Archers. (And I shut up about ranged) This was in EU terms the golden days of Hetman and Blackbow. That alone is proof that nerfs work. (And they have worked many many times before)
Then they got buffed, lets rather say the class got much more accessible. More accessible than any other actually, since you could deal full damage with no looms.
Now we have a ranged infestation, since as me and you have predicted many times, ranged breeds more ranged. (Both by people countering ranged with ranged, AND with melee quitting or switching to siege, so we get more ranged per melee target, so the remaining melee are squeezed on 2 fronts.)
Now I'm fully aware that I'm not taking the manly POV of sucking it up, or adapting. Simply because lets face it, cRPG is not very well made for adapting. The investment in looms and levels are simply too large for people to adapt!
Believe me, the ONLY thing I want to do to cRPG is to lessen (Not Remove!) things that make the game boring, lame and frustrating for Melee players. Stuff that remove the chance of an intense Melee battle that makes your heart pump. (Yes Paul I do see Melee fighting as more worthy and unique than Ranged fighting, so shoot me if I'm wrong. 8-) I do see S keying with large Melee weapons much more Anime Cartoonish in concept than a freakin katana..)
This is probably what cRPG lacks. The will of the players to organize and play for victory - even if it means going for MotF. Instead I have seen shieldless melee players charging an archer hill one after the other and complaining about it afterwards. It's like they claim the right to be retarded and still win. I might be alone with that but I think cRPG is about winning rounds. There a semi-organized inf pile defeats a cav and ranged horde anytime when playing for MotF cleverly. Ranged and cav feasts on stupid players but I don't think that this is reason enough to nerf them. Instead a more prominent MotF(maybe with spawned cover) and a penalty for survivers of a MotF loss would be my solution.From the few rounds I have experienced where MotF actually functioned as intended(spawning with 5 or fewer players left on a team) or after having spawned in a good location at the start of the round, nothing like a penalty needs done. We just need MotF fixed and fully functional(Sometimes you can raise your team's flag until it stops, but the round still won't end). Possibly change how many people cause motf to be spawned, maybe set a specific spawn time that is early enough to ensure it spawns every round. It's just that simply having flags on the map automatically reduces the effectiveness of ranged(maybe not throwing) and cav.
In cRPG no class stressed me as much as playing foot archer. The frailty combined with cadence induced tunnel vision was horrifying. Crossbow is so relaxing compared to it. Reload in cover with a calm 360 scan to access the situation. Archers got my respect, crossbowers not so much. For me it took less effort, skill and brain to play a successful melee, cav or xbow char than a semi-decent archer.
Back in Warband beta I started out as a melee-centrist; hating on cav, ranged and even shielders for being easymode low-skill classes. I hated because I didn't know. I rarely played anything different than melee. What opened my eyes was the Nationscup. We had a team consisting of almost melee people only. We even had to take in chadz as a crossbower. But we were still rather successful. Even with ranged 10 times more powerful than in cRPG you could win with an inf pile if you played with MotF. It was doable and for me it was fun. Russians finally defeated us with a nicely done scatter and shoot crossbow squad tactic. But I didn't hate on them for that. I respected them. I started to respect decent cav and decent ranged, knowing that it does take skill to be successful with them against an organized oposition.
This is probably what cRPG lacks. The will of the players to organize and play for victory - even if it means going for MotF. Instead I have seen shieldless melee players charging an archer hill one after the other and complaining about it afterwards. It's like they claim the right to be retarded and still win. I might be alone with that but I think cRPG is about winning rounds. There a semi-organized inf pile defeats a cav and ranged horde anytime when playing for MotF cleverly. Ranged and cav feasts on stupid players but I don't think that this is reason enough to nerf them. Instead a more prominent MotF(maybe with spawned cover) and a penalty for survivers of a MotF loss would be my solution.
... missile speeds need to be nerfed.Suggested by Stevie and the more sensible way of getting a balance.
Yes Kafein, we know you hate ranged and want it removed from the mod or made to be so entirely useless that no one in their right mind would ever choose it. We get it man, we get it.I cant remember Kafein seriously saying anything about removing ranged. From those who argued here and on other topics concerning ranged balancing, he seems still to be the more chill here and additionally made some excellent points.
Yes Kafein, we know you hate ranged and want it removed from the mod or made to be so entirely useless that no one in their right mind would ever choose it. We get it man, we get it.
Kafein I really appreciate what you do, you're tryint to understand and find ways of how to counter the ranged. But ranged is not as effective as you describe man, it's simply not.
Most of the maps, allow infantry to seek cover and force their opponents into melee. It is mostly about close encounters combat. City maps are even better for this, an example would be the nord town. Yes, rooftops don't really help that much with the addons in cRPG version (where there are more access to the rooftops).
You're saying melee combat is equally fun to the both sides, but ranged combat isn't. Well it is clear that you don't like it to be that way, but it is in the very nature of the ranged. It is about shooting something, preferebly something that can't shoot you back. Getting shot is of course not fun. Same for getting hit by a melee weapon. You'll say that "I can block the melee weapon, but I can't block the arrows coming at me. Ok I understand that logic, but there are other methods to deal with it.
You're saying that hiding from ranged makes it someone else's problem, well it is obvious you are looking from a solo perspective. Battle is not about surviving yourself by sacrificing your teammates,
it is about winning the other team with your team. Just change your attitude to the problem and try a different approach maybe? I can give two ways how to deal with ranged if you really want to give it a try:
1-As corsair said, play in IG_Battlegrounds. It will improve your ways of dealing with ranged. You will laugh at yourself for getting shot only because you are getting shot by 2 archers.
2-Play as an archer in cRPG. To know the weakness of the class, you have to play it.
Now I don't know you already tried these, but I think you need more time with those. I feel like an asshole for giving advice to a veteran player like you, but I really want to help you.
You are starting to become that guy that systematically ignores all the points being made and argues with imaginary straw men.
This is probably what cRPG lacks. The will of the players to organize and play for victory - even if it means going for MotF. Instead I have seen shieldless melee players charging an archer hill one after the other and complaining about it afterwards. It's like they claim the right to be retarded and still win. I might be alone with that but I think cRPG is about winning rounds. There a semi-organized inf pile defeats a cav and ranged horde anytime when playing for MotF cleverly. Ranged and cav feasts on stupid players but I don't think that this is reason enough to nerf them. Instead a more prominent MotF(maybe with spawned cover) and a penalty for survivers of a MotF loss would be my solution.
I've seen your points.
1: Ranged shouldn't be able to hit melee at range.
2: Hiding, dodging, and shields are useless.
3: There is no counter to ranged except for ranged and that should not be.
4:
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Getting all in one from last nerf archery topic i suggest to:Steevee you are a Genius! :wink:
1. Revert patch buffing non loomed archery gear.
2. Decrease amount of arrows per quiver (17 or 16 bodkins on +3 should be ok)
3. Reduce fire ratio for bows while shooting from horseback (devs done it to HX, so i think they can do it for bows)
4. Lower missile speed for low tier bows (Long bow should have highest missile speed, but it stay just like it is atm, rest should have lower missile speed with rule: lower dmg -> lower missile speed)
5. Lower a bit amount of dmg added by arrows
IMO as an archer after this patch I'll be forced to stop spamming arrows if I would like to keep some for end of the round, and i'll have lower dmg (if i'll use non loomed gear)
Plenty archers are using non loomed bows (i can see it because i'm using hireloom models boss pack), so after patch they will GTX from archery or will start using slower and less acurate, but stronger and more expensive bows. HA will also stop to being a raiding gatling guns.
Steevee you are a Genius! :wink:sadly no one listen
1: Again, I never said that. There's a huge difference between "being able to" and "being guaranteed to". When I attack in melee I'm never guaranteed my attack will not be blocked, but that doesn't mean I am not able to attack.
sadly no one listen
Funny, I've been shooting arrows for quite awhile and I have not seen a single one "being guaranteed to hit".
I feel the same.
...Making "teamhits of ranged" really costly, could have that effect. That then would mostly only count towards situations where they shoot towards opponents which are already engaged closely with a friendly teammate of theirs. To increase that as an factor the reduction of missile speed would be beneficial in combination.
That would be fine if there was a reason for them to start fighting in melee unless forced to, or if actually forcing them into melee was usually feasible in the first place.
I'm fairly sure what pisses you off is stun itself and not damage you receive from ranged teamhit (except if it is heavy hitter, like arbalester or bodkin arrow high PD archer).i am fairly sure, that by removing stun completly, we loose depth to the game. Getting anoyed to a certain amount by ranged is good, it gives the game atmosphere.
Maybe, but with the kind of missile speed we got, it's a hell of a lot more likely to score a headshot at 20m than not being blocked on a stab overture.
It looks like you are talking about missile speed from low tier bows. missile speed for rus and long bow is ok, you should also remember that you are not a Witcher....
thanks for responding!(click to show/hide)
It looks like you are talking about missile speed from low tier bows. missile speed for rus and long bow is ok, you should also remember that you are not a Witcher....
I already mentioned about missile speed:
4. Lower missile speed for low tier bows (Long bow should have highest missile speed, but it stay just like it is atm, rest should have lower missile speed with rule: lower dmg -> lower missile speed)
... reverting arrows back to their normal weight, slowing archer movement while a bow is being used, but normal while using a melee weapon, ...Wouldnt they then not just kite again while carrying melee weapon? How about the kiting where they drop everything only to run in circles to then pick up again ..drop again to run in circles .... or just running away indefinetly till some other ranged would shoot the kiter or round end flags are up.
Only when a melee fight would be taking place, the movement restrictions would be lifted.
That's also not good. There should be a limit for every bow for accuracy, if you go above it you gain only reload speed :)
All I can say is, there should be a some kind of limit to archery. Making archery to not go higher than, lets say 180 for instance. So any archer who has extra points to spend, will spend those into a melee proficiency. That way, archers who like to melee will not be sacrificing their archery power and I think 180 wpf is already good enough for an archer.
Yeah people are forgetting the fact that archers can drop their bow&arrows for a second to fight in melee. It's not like it vanishes within a few seconds, it stays there safe for at least like 15 minutes (I know this from PWmod).
All I can say is, there should be a some kind of limit to archery. Making archery to not go higher than, lets say 180 for instance. So any archer who has extra points to spend, will spend those into a melee proficiency. That way, archers who like to melee will not be sacrificing their archery power and I think 180 wpf is already good enough for an archer.
but we have it already, all you need to di is drop a bow :)the logic behind is different.
the logic behind is different.
With the current system you can drop bow and arrows and still run away.
With the logic i suggest, you are slow by default, but speed up for the fighting when you take up a melee weapon.
Rumblood, that's not a good idea.
If you will give archer ability faster, he will use it to kite.
As I understand your suggestion if you will have bow in your hand you will be slow, but if you will put in or you back you will run faster.
For players with hi ath bulid and low tier bow time to draw a bow is a split a second. they will just pull out melee weapon to run away, and then take a bow and shoot. That will be totally gay move, but archers will do that :P
Good idea, but how do you plan to achieve that?similar to
Bows are meant to be faster than x-bows.
It's still possible to spam a long bow archer with nomad or tatar bow.
"string your bow" also is divided in two parts:
1)putting arrow on string and prepare it to draw
2)draw a bow
third part is aiming and releasing an arrow.
As an archer i can say that part 2 takes way less time than 1. It also depends on what bow you are using.
Rumblood, have you played an archer for more like 2 gens? I'm asking, because you are writing really wierd suggestions sometimes (almost as wierd as Kingrimm's :wink:)
Well let me put that back at you like this, have you been reading for more than 2 gens? I'm asking because you don't seem to understand the words coming out of my keyboard sometimes :wink:)
But you can't kite away. It is dumb if you only look at it from an archers standpoint. If archers didn't kite and min/max,
4. Lower missile speed for low tier bows (Long bow should have highest missile speed, but it stay just like it is atm, rest should have lower missile speed with rule: lower dmg -> lower missile speed)
I have not read the whole thread, didnt have time yet, but I will.
I just wanted to add something noone took into consideration, until page 8 at least.^^
I think one big reason we have so many archers on the servers atm is the beginning of Strat. Archery is clearly op in these early stages of strategus, because of which a lot of people, and I mean really alot are leveling and training archer alts atm to gain an advantage in strat, which probably wont be used anymore once strat goes into midgame.
So before making any fast changes I suggest waiting a bit and see.