How to nerf archery, without destroying it.

[BlindGuy]

Number of archers is a symptom... Find the cause and fix it...

Well, tbh, if you like, make yourself a stf or something and I will teach you to melee, and then you might enjoy it and stop shooting. and thats one less buttmy old friend

[En_Dotter]

Well, tbh, if you like, make yourself a stf or something and I will teach you to melee, and then you might enjoy it and stop shooting. and thats one less buttmy old friend

Im on my cav on eu1 and archer on eu2. And there is nobody that could teach me to melee cus i suck at it and i will always live to shoot stuff. Playing cav is just making me wanna play archer more.

[Strudog]

Im on my cav on eu1 and archer on eu2. And there is nobody that could teach me to melee cus i suck at it and i will always live to shoot stuff. Playing cav is just making me wanna play archer more.

Because your horse gets shot to pieces, by a million archers on EU1?

(click to show/hide)

1. Revert patch buffing non loomed archery gear.[/b]
If that is really required, we shouldn't go back entirely. Maybe +2 damage on bows, +1 damage on arrows is enough but not a fully +3/+3. It was just silly. If you want this, you are simply a selfish archer who wants to gain advantage over other archers with many masterworks.
2. Decrease amount of arrows per quiver (17 or 16 bodkins on +3 should be ok)
Not much of a difference. From 20 to 17-16. I don't see much has changed. Not much of a nerf.
3. Reduce fire ratio for bows while shooting from horseback (devs done it to HX, so i think they can do it for bows)
Horse archers already has lower accuracy, lower damage and lower effective wpf (hence lower accuracy and speed). It was done for HX because it should have been supposedly harder to reload a crossbow on horseback. There shouldn't be much of a change for the usage of bows. Maybe the accuracy should depend on the horses movement (giving the max accuracy while all of the horses legs are on the air; lowest accuracy while horse legs are stomping the ground), that would be a better idea.
4. Lower missile speed for low tier bows (Long bow should have highest missile speed, but it stay just like it is atm, rest should have lower missile speed with rule: lower dmg ->  lower missile speed)
Can't say much as I'm no expert.
5. Lower a bit amount of dmg added by arrows
By how much and what reason? Overall you're suggesting another general nerf to archery.

PLease come and play EU1 for a day, im sure you will quickly change your mind

[Molly]

PLease come and play EU1 for a day, im sure you will quickly change your mind

That's what I keep thinking whenever some 'MURICAN feels entitled to come in here and call us out on our "QQ".

It has been said repeatedly that the amount of ranged on EU1 is way higher than on NA1. And at least for me that is the whole issue. I don't mind the damage taken by an arrow, I don't mind the headshot capabilities from across the other side of the map (actually I do think accuracy is too high or the head hitbox is too big)... my only real issue is the amount of them.

There are some maps with a prominent roof... those are the maps where you can easily see the whole problem - it's crawling with bows and xbows. Even Autobus had to admit the other day "that it's not supposed to be like this". And you can easily see the player numbers on EU1 dropping with every single day passing.

And this "2h hero charging archers" routine is bullshit too. In easy 90% of the cases I see a melee player peek around a corner, spotting 3 archers and turning around instantly. Before he even reaches the saving wall to hide behind, he's either dead or has 2 arrows in his back... Nowadays most melee fights are behind some walls or any other kind of cover to be found. Some maps have known "pockets" for melee where most of us meet up and then gank it out but even those rare moments get ruined quite a lot of times cuz suddenly 3 archers appear and start shooting into the melee fights. If the damage wasn't already bad enough, the stagger by an arrow hit, opening your block of the incoming swing kills you for sure. Personally, I hate those moments cuz I had the right block on time ready and just died because someone clicked on me from miles away and I couldn't do anything about it.

I don't care how it's done but I just hope that the people responsible and in charge see that something has to be done to get the amount of ranged players down.

[Dolphin]

(click to show/hide)

That's what I keep thinking whenever some 'MURICAN feels entitled to come in here and call us out on our "QQ".

It has been said repeatedly that the amount of ranged on EU1 is way higher than on NA1. And at least for me that is the whole issue. I don't mind the damage taken by an arrow, I don't mind the headshot capabilities from across the other side of the map (actually I do think accuracy is too high or the head hitbox is too big)... my only real issue is the amount of them.

There are some maps with a prominent roof... those are the maps where you can easily see the whole problem - it's crawling with bows and xbows. Even Autobus had to admit the other day "that it's not supposed to be like this". And you can easily see the player numbers on EU1 dropping with every single day passing.

And this "2h hero charging archers" routine is bullshit too. In easy 90% of the cases I see a melee player peek around a corner, spotting 3 archers and turning around instantly. Before he even reaches the saving wall to hide behind, he's either dead or has 2 arrows in his back... Nowadays most melee fights are behind some walls or any other kind of cover to be found. Some maps have known "pockets" for melee where most of us meet up and then gank it out but even those rare moments get ruined quite a lot of times cuz suddenly 3 archers appear and start shooting into the melee fights. If the damage wasn't already bad enough, the stagger by an arrow hit, opening your block of the incoming swing kills you for sure. Personally, I hate those moments cuz I had the right block on time ready and just died because someone clicked on me from miles away and I couldn't do anything about it.

I don't care how it's done but I just hope that the people responsible and in charge see that something has to be done to get the amount of ranged players down.

What Benkei is saying is the truth man.

but i dont have any idea how to stop people from going/being archers. (except  ENRNEFNEFNNERF NEFERFAF which imo is honestly bad)

[Templar_Steevee]

5. Lower a bit amount of dmg added by arrows
By how much and what reason? Overall you're suggesting another general nerf to archery.

Maybe i don't show my intensions clear enought.

I wont to lower dmg on arrows because they are only missiles. Of course they are dealing dmg but most of dmg should be dependent on kind of bow you are using.

Short bow (25c dmg) + Tatar Arrows (8c dmg)=33c dmg 60+2x202= 464 gold
Yumi (28c dmg) + arrows (5c dmg)= 33c dmg    upkeep: 606+2x11= 628 gold

when we add that short bow is faster and have higher missile speed and lower requirements it looks like we have something wrong here.

I know that PD increases dmg, and capping thing about PD over req, but with that we can make cheap, annoying as hell horse archer.


I want to balance not only archers, crosbows needs even more a ballance, but i'm not an expert in x-bows

[Angellore]

1. Revert patch buffing non loomed archery gear.
2. Decrease amount of arrows per quiver (17 or 16 bodkins on +3 should be ok)
3. Reduce fire ratio for bows while shooting from horseback (devs done it to HX, so i think they can do it for bows)
4. Lower missile speed for low tier bows (Long bow should have highest missile speed, but it stay just like it is atm, rest should have lower missile speed with rule: lower dmg ->  lower missile speed)
5. Lower a bit amount of dmg added by arrows

The problem with your propostion is, you want to nerf almost every single element of archery same time. Decrease damage, decrease missile speed, decrease amount of arrows. I agree with green changes, but I don't think whole archery is broken atm, especially archery with 2 slot bows. The problem starts with 1 slot bows, which are way too effective after missile speed change. Horn Bow after missile speed change has damage similar to Rus Bow, while being faster, more accurate, 1 slot. Almost all players who joined archery recently uses Horn Bow, because it's now way too good bow. Maybe just revert this change and see what will happen then?
Crosshair compare - Long Bow vs Horn Bow:
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Having 190 WPF in archery, you can keep this accuracy for ~1.5 second with Long Bow, and ~2 seconds with Horn Bow, so Horn Bow has advantage here as well. Because of high shooting rate, much higher missile speed and better accuracy, Horn Bow now feels more like a gun. Damage of Horn Bow is also too high, because higher missile speed increased it's damage. In my opinion, missile speed patch was a mistake, it made lower tier bows, like Horn Bow, super accurate shooting machine with completely fine damage. Those bows are cheaper and requires less PD for a reason, they shouldn't be as effective (even more effective at the moment) than high tier bows.

[UnholyRolyPoly]

That's what I keep thinking whenever some 'MURICAN feels entitled to come in here and call us out on our "QQ".

It has been said repeatedly that the amount of ranged on EU1 is way higher than on NA1. And at least for me that is the whole issue. I don't mind the damage taken by an arrow, I don't mind the headshot capabilities from across the other side of the map (actually I do think accuracy is too high or the head hitbox is too big)... my only real issue is the amount of them.

There are some maps with a prominent roof... those are the maps where you can easily see the whole problem - it's crawling with bows and xbows. Even Autobus had to admit the other day "that it's not supposed to be like this". And you can easily see the player numbers on EU1 dropping with every single day passing.

And this "2h hero charging archers" routine is bullshit too. In easy 90% of the cases I see a melee player peek around a corner, spotting 3 archers and turning around instantly. Before he even reaches the saving wall to hide behind, he's either dead or has 2 arrows in his back... Nowadays most melee fights are behind some walls or any other kind of cover to be found. Some maps have known "pockets" for melee where most of us meet up and then gank it out but even those rare moments get ruined quite a lot of times cuz suddenly 3 archers appear and start shooting into the melee fights. If the damage wasn't already bad enough, the stagger by an arrow hit, opening your block of the incoming swing kills you for sure. Personally, I hate those moments cuz I had the right block on time ready and just died because someone clicked on me from miles away and I couldn't do anything about it.

I don't care how it's done but I just hope that the people responsible and in charge see that something has to be done to get the amount of ranged players down.

I use to be in Fallen.... so I played a lot on EU servers lol.   I was on EU for several hours yesterday.  I enjoy the challenge.  I've been working nights for a while now and I come on EU almost every evening/morning.  Finally being shot as you described is totally realistic.  If you don't want to get shot when you peak your head around a corner then be a shielder.  Every class has an anti class.  Shielders are the anti-class of ranged.  There is a fine line between a simulation and an action game.  CRPG became more of an action game because of multiple ranged nerfs.  I spent almost 10 gens as a 2h and I rarely feared ranged lol.  They were a non-factor most of the time.  I'm glad they buffed them a little bit with the WPF thing.  It forces inf to use tactics and that seems to be the root of most people's concern.  They want an action game and I want a simulation. 

I wouldn't mind a re-balance if need be.  I've never been an archer/xbow so I don't know anything about it.  But they shouldn't be nerfed anymore than they have been. 

We can agree to disagree.  I'm not stating that I am 100% right and my opinion is the only one that counts lol.  I understand where a lot of people are coming from.  But this is my opinion. 

[Molly]

First...  I use to be in Fallen.... so I played a lot on EU servers lol.  Second...  I was on EU for several hours yesterday.  I enjoy the challenge.  Third....  being shot like that is totally realistic.  If you don't want to get shot when you peak your head around a corner then be a shielder.  Every class has an anti class.  Shielders are the anti-class of ranged. 

We can agree to disagree.  I'm not stating that I am 100% right and my opinion is the only one that counts lol.  I understand where a lot of people are coming from.  But this is my opinion.  Ranged has been over nerfed regardless of what server you play on.

As you probably noticed while reading my post, I didn't demand a nerf. I want their numbers reduced. Just that and I am a happy Ninja.

[En_Dotter]

Maybe i don't show my intensions clear enought.

I wont to lower dmg on arrows because they are only missiles. Of course they are dealing dmg but most of dmg should be dependent on kind of bow you are using.

Short bow (25c dmg) + Tatar Arrows (8c dmg)=33c dmg 60+2x202= 464 gold
Yumi (28c dmg) + arrows (5c dmg)= 33c dmg    upkeep: 606+2x11= 628 gold

when we add that short bow is faster and have higher missile speed and lower requirements it looks like we have something wrong here.

I know that PD increases dmg, and capping thing about PD over req, but with that we can make cheap, annoying as hell horse archer.


I want to balance not only archers, crosbows needs even more a ballance, but i'm not an expert in x-bows

Seems like im constantly attacking you but dont get me wrong. Im just trying to help out.
You cant look at plain numbers when it comes to bows. Short bow with pd req of 1 can get up to 5pd bonus and yumi goes to 10. Now i dont know if pd boost applies only to bow or to both bow and arrows. So here are the numbers. If applied to bow and arrows max pd would give: short + tatar= 33+33*5*0.14=56.1c and yumi + arrows=33+33*10*0.14=79.2c. Also for every 5 str you get 1 dmg boost (unaffected by pd/ps/pt). Assuming you got 15str on short bow that would be total of 59.c and for yumi 85.2c.
If pd only applies to bow we have: 25+25*5*0.14=42.5c; 53.5c (with str boost and arrow damage) and yumi would give us 67.2c or 78.2c with str and arrow damage.
If pd doesnt apply to arrows then i agree something is wrong. If it does apply to arrows i dont see the problem to be honest.

EDIT: I know yumi is made for HA but if you would buff yumi it would make it top choice for foot archer. If you would nerf short bow more it would be quite retarded to have it... And i know 10pd isnt gonna happen on HA...

[UnholyRolyPoly]

As you probably noticed while reading my post, I didn't demand a nerf. I want their numbers reduced. Just that and I am a happy Ninja.

 

Yea but think about it.... the only way to reduce their numbers is to nerf them so badly that people quit playing ranged and start playing other classes lol.  Furthermore if you are a ninja then I bet money you are somewhat of an agi build built for dueling.  (18-24?)  So range is your nemesis.  However consider this.....  if you are more of a duelist and your character is BUILT for dueling then you have an automatic advantage in every dueling situation.  I see guys all the time on the duel server who kick the shit out of everyone..... then get killed early and often on Battle because their build isn't designed to defend against ranged.  And of course who complains most often about range?  Those guys lol.  Why?  Because it's their anti-class.  They are generally faster and use faster weapons than everyone else (and of course light armor) giving them a tremendous advantage in 1 v 1 situations.  If they get surrounded by melee they simply turn and run.   Unless.... they... get... shot.....  So in their mind they SHOULD be able to kill anyone.... and they are right.... if only that pesky cheating fuck ranged would go away lol. 

Of course I take nothing away from you....  I don't know you.... but I've seen it a thousand times on NA.  I spend a lot of time in the duel servers and some of these guys beat the hell out of me.  It's just funny to see them complain in battle because they get shot.... while I hold up pretty well in battle because I'm wearing enough armor (not to mention I sacrifice some speed for ironflesh) to withstand a few arrows.  It's all about builds, roles, and versatility.  ANY.... agi class.... outside of shielders will bitch about ranged more than the average.  But don't other classes bitch about Agi builds?  When you ninja someone don't they think you should be nerfed?  How about the amazingly fast Katana and Longsword heroes lol. 

Anyways it's just my opinion.  I'm not a fan of nerfing a class just to turn the battle server into a giant duel server. 

[UnholyRolyPoly]

The problem with your propostion is, you want to nerf almost every single element of archery same time. Decrease damage, decrease missile speed, decrease amount of arrows. I agree with green changes, but I don't think whole archery is broken atm, especially archery with 2 slot bows. The problem starts with 1 slot bows, which are way too effective after missile speed change. Horn Bow after missile speed change has damage similar to Rus Bow, while being faster, more accurate, 1 slot. Almost all players who joined archery recently uses Horn Bow, because it's now way too good bow. Maybe just revert this change and see what will happen then?
Crosshair compare - Long Bow vs Horn Bow:
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Having 190 WPF in archery, you can keep this accuracy for ~1.5 second with Long Bow, and ~2 seconds with Horn Bow, so Horn Bow has advantage here as well. Because of high shooting rate, much higher missile speed and better accuracy, Horn Bow now feels more like a gun. Damage of Horn Bow is also too high, because higher missile speed increased it's damage. In my opinion, missile speed patch was a mistake, it made lower tier bows, like Horn Bow, super accurate shooting machine with completely fine damage. Those bows are cheaper and requires less PD for a reason, they shouldn't be as effective (even more effective at the moment) than high tier bows.

Totally off topic but the woman in your avatar is beautiful lol. 

[Hirlok]

OK, - let's try to differentiate a bit. My first reaction to this thread was just facepalm - being an archer in this game has been frustrating most of the time, and if it is on par with other classes for a month or two, nobody should have a problem. Plus I can't stand the qq of the non-thinkers any more.

Another aspect is that archers, esp. good ones like Steevee who can adopt to almost any shit devs throw at them, are on average overly decent people and always eager to nerf themselves. Quite rare in other classes (actually I know only one crazy horse )

So: overall it is just QQ - as long as any agi whore with some op polearm oneshots me and 1h swords stab me from 4m away (1 shot, ofc), we need not talk about archer nerfs.

But a few points:

Can we please stop talking about "archers" when we mean "any fucking ranged dickhead"? We have very different things here, and they should be treated separately, without one class taking the heat and the nerfs for all of them.

"Archers" are dedicated bowmen with 2 slot bow, 2 quivers, 0 slot melee. They can fucking hurt you, but never have been a problem, because this class requires passion and dedication (and bolsters the kd of the heroes, cuz no chance in melee, most of us). Effectively we have been nerfed to PD6 (imagine the QQ if melee could not do shit with more than 6ps, LOL), so this class is an endangered species and crippled anyways. Even I am currently playing a weaboo archer with horn bow and katana, just to be a pain in the ass.

Then we have dedicated "pussy archers" or "agi archers" - insanely high WPF since those genius changes to the wpf system, 1 slot bow, 3 quivers. Hate class, even for me .  But hey, that's life on the battlefield.

To make things worse, we have "hybrid archers" or better "melee with bow as sidearm". Also a side effect of the new wpf system - any agi shielder whore, pole or 2h can easily put 100 points into archery and spam 2pd arrows...

"horse archers" - well, self-explanatory. Ewwww. 

roughly the same sub-classes exist for xbows and throwers.

Average melee dickhead: "ow, some flying shit hit me and actually took 12% of my precious health - nerf ARCHERS".

I have alts in almost any class and several sub classes - so I know quite well who has a problem with whom at the moment.

Besides: siege and battle (the other gamemodes are useless and just pull away more people from already underpopulated servers) are different things again. In battle you can rarely empty even one quiver before getting gangbanged by melee or horses, on decent siege maps defending archers can actually be archers and need all the arrows Calradia's trees can spare... so please do not adjust everything just to please the battlemy old friends and horse dick lovers.

Problems currently (I have spent quite a few hours on EU servers as well recently, so this is not just a NA point of view):

- too many agi archers and hybrid archers with slightly op tiny bows
- xbows still stupidly op (my arb alt gets more points and better kd at mid-20 levels compared to any of my archer alts at high levels - PLUS has ath, IF and points in 1h... )


Steevee's suggestions: make no sense to me, since they hit all archers, and only archers.

Different idea:

• limit amount of ranged players (certain percentage per class), esp. on battle. >50% ranged plus skill-less hybrids is really bit tough.
• remove the ability of melee to carry ranged sidearms (except some low tier throwing). They want to shoot - they have to pick it up somewhere. Removes 30% of ranged spam and skill-less bolt/arrow showering.
• re-balance the bows, so low tier bows are LOW tier bows and real archery becomes challenging fun again (= unfuck high PD)
• put xbows in their place finally, no matter how many devs are xbow lovers. They need some skill requirement (like PD) and slight overall nerf (missile speed and damage)
• (((and re-work that well-intended, but quite fucked up new WP/WPF system that favors agi whores in all classes in a very annoying way...)))

Done.


P.S.: forgot one thing  - partially reverting the "fuck archery looms" patch makes a lot of sense. Currently we are the only class I guess where it makes more sense to loom your boots than your weapon... Any melee weapon gets +2 or +3 damage on mw, xbows even +4 on some, just bows and arrows not. Joke.

[Templar_Steevee]

...
Steevee's suggestions: make no sense to me, since they hit all archers, and only archers.
...

I'm talking about archers only, because i'm an archer and last time i were using x-bow were over 2 years ago.

Some x-bow user should make comparable topic to my one.

[Ronin]

Maybe i don't show my intensions clear enought.

I wont to lower dmg on arrows because they are only missiles. Of course they are dealing dmg but most of dmg should be dependent on kind of bow you are using.

Short bow (25c dmg) + Tatar Arrows (8c dmg)=33c dmg 60+2x202= 464 gold
Yumi (28c dmg) + arrows (5c dmg)= 33c dmg    upkeep: 606+2x11= 628 gold

when we add that short bow is faster and have higher missile speed and lower requirements it looks like we have something wrong here.

This wouldn't change much. Let's say we nerfed all arrow damage by 2.

Short bow (25c dmg) + Tatar Arrows (6c dmg)=31c dmg 60+2x202= 464 gold
Yumi (28c dmg) + arrows (3c dmg)= 31c dmg    upkeep: 606+2x11= 628 gold
Again, the same damage. I didn't understand where you're getting at. Besides no archer goes with arrows. It is instead:
It is either Tatar or Bodkin arrows being used (Barbed are also not bad ammo/upkeep/damage wise, Kulin taught me that). You only take higher tier bows if you want better damage. If 33c damage is enough for you, then go for short bow with the first combination. If you want more damage, use a high tier bow.

By the way, I think the problem is about short bow. It is one nonsensical bow. 871 gold and only 1 damage less than horn bow.

PLease come and play EU1 for a day, im sure you will quickly change your mind

Change my mind to what? I merely approved or disapproved anything, just tried to examine the offered suggestions.