Poll

Do you agree with those changes?

Yes
89 (62.7%)
No
34 (23.9%)
Yes, but... (insert you opinion)
19 (13.4%)

Total Members Voted: 142

Author Topic: How to nerf archery, without destroying it.  (Read 16262 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Leshma

  • Kickstarter Addict
  • King
  • **********
  • Renown: 1159
  • Infamy: 1205
  • cRPG Player Sir White Rook A Gentleman and a Scholar
  • VOTE 2024
    • View Profile
Re: How to nerf archery, without destroying it.
« Reply #105 on: December 14, 2013, 02:41:48 pm »
-2
He's telling people to stop playing cRPG, because if they do that at this point they might lose interest in M:BG as well. Paul is still butthurt over the fact that I knew about M:BG before him, and that he wasn't part of that crew. Still remember how he acted after the grand reveal. So it's obvious he wants M:BG to fail.

Offline kinngrimm

  • King
  • **********
  • Renown: 1026
  • Infamy: 320
  • cRPG Player A Gentleman and a Scholar
    • View Profile
    • The Betrayer of Nations
  • Faction: Wolves of Fenris
  • Game nicks: kinngrimm, Karma
  • IRC nick: kinngrimm
Re: How to nerf archery, without destroying it.
« Reply #106 on: December 14, 2013, 02:49:21 pm »
0
What still cracks me up, that players take refugee from ranged on "SIEGE", the place where logicly seen ranged should have, but doesnt have, more advantages. Instead they have more advantages on "open" maps not on maps with more "stationary" covers as they are mostly used now by melee ^^.

The argument that people block too well, there could be something to it, perhaps blocking needs to be made more difficult(waiting for shitstorm ^^).
The skill to block as shielder, low in comparison to 4 directional block, as then but most 2h/pole became sufficent proficient to block nearly everything anytime, then the advantage of the shielder is gone. So when people say easy block towards shielders ... sure, but it doesnt give an advantage anymore as it did perhaps 2 to 3 years ago. But with my argument above, if blocking is made thougher, it should be made tougher on all of us. Then again doing so, may fuck up things even more, as people may wonder then .. why the hell is blocking now not working anymore ...

... retiring to 1h/xbow/cav ... more and more sounds like an option or why would i keep arguing against something which devs clearly dont see as a problem. Sure the game is getting old, but before the respec the gradual increase of ranged was already there, only afterward it but became obvious and now Paul you seem to want to ignore the fact, that that actually then is discurraging lots of players ... the other reason would be that the respec for some went to shit as they respeced into something they didnt like ... for that argument we but would need to see how many high level players have stopped playing or do less playing with a total different build, the later isnt realy my concern anyways.

One of the things i remember clearly chadz saying, "ranged are support classes". Support != dominating = majority of server population
Support != headshotting gattling guns (if only felt that way because of ranged amount of players or because the lower tier bow combined with high wpf, both being a problem)

In any case i would like to see
- Xbow penetration of shields => deleted, if not for all , then for expensive shields above 2500 gold or higher shieldskills of 5 to 6 or a combination of both.
- kick, area of effect, decreased by 2/3
- while i would keep the accuracy of bows, the argument about missile speed i see as viable, reducing the speed increasing the need to estemate more and reading more carefully the situations.
- increasing the weapons weigth effect on movement speed. If you are carrying this sick huge 2h/pole you should be slower.
- decreasing speed of lower tier bows

if you want to balance further
- decreasing munition count of all ranged, with lots of them online, there shouldnt be a problem with that, therefor but also may not have any effect  :rolleyes:
- reducing the weight penalties of shielders, may have the effect we are looking for but needs to be done carefully as that could leed to a shielder overdooze 0_o as would binding shield requirement to 'str' instead of shieldskill, which replaces one problem with another.

Then again, if you all just consider at least, quotas(indiviually gear based/ not a fixed class system). If they are implemented rather flexible, we still stay on track with individuality and players choice, but get a balancing tool. If then f.e. you have that in place, you can adjust those and every week there maybe a new combination , where either more ranged or less shielders or more 2h or less pole or more cav or less HA or or or would be doable ... creating rather uniq sets of teams again. But we all would need to play more often with alt characters. Aslong those then would be easily accessible when you try to join a server, this would be a good thing.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2013, 03:12:47 pm by kinngrimm »
learn from the past, live the moment, dream of the future

Offline Thomek

  • El Director
  • OKAM Developer
  • ***
  • Renown: 1372
  • Infamy: 481
  • cRPG Player A Gentleman and a Scholar
    • View Profile
    • Ninja Guide Wiki
  • Faction: Ninja_
  • Game nicks: Ninja_Thomek
Re: How to nerf archery, without destroying it.
« Reply #107 on: December 14, 2013, 02:50:18 pm »
-1
(click to show/hide)

Alright, I'm exaggerating about the NA thing, but a calm reasonable voice doesn't have any ears around here dear Paul.. It's more of a kick towards the most active balancers who seems to be NA atm.

The reason I've been "whining" on these forums for 3 1/2 years is because cRPG was, can be, and sometimes is the best game out there. You seem to believe the mod is dying, that there is nothing we can do, and that we should let it die?

I don't believe that.

I believe it is like this because the recent changes and accessibility of bows just tipped the ranged metagame into the unbearable for most players. It's not just me whining here about buff katana. You have Grumbs, Erzengel, Teeth, even Steevee suggesting nerfs! These are normally calm, reasonable people, who hate to whine.

I know it feels like a neverending job to "Balance" crpg. But let's face it, it just is a neverending job! Every first/3rd person multiplayer game of some complexity does it all the time. Just look at WoW or any similar game.

Now, I just want to say that we do appreciate the job you do, perhaps more than you know. It's just that a balance forum naturally will be full of complaints.. :)  Just use it as a gauge to measure the current temperament.

(click to show/hide)
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


That Thomeck-delay-kicking bussiness is like that asshole-retard dude that fucks your sister sometimes.

Offline Paul

  • Developer
  • ******
  • Renown: 1879
  • Infamy: 442
  • cRPG Player A Gentleman and a Scholar
  • ball bounce boss
    • View Profile
  • IRC nick: Urist
Re: How to nerf archery, without destroying it.
« Reply #108 on: December 14, 2013, 03:40:45 pm »
+3
He's telling people to stop playing cRPG, because if they do that at this point they might lose interest in M:BG as well. Paul is still butthurt over the fact that I knew about M:BG before him, and that he wasn't part of that crew. Still remember how he acted after the grand reveal. So it's obvious he wants M:BG to fail.

wat? I hope that is satire. If not, get help.

Offline Rebelyell

  • King
  • **********
  • Renown: 1267
  • Infamy: 398
  • cRPG Player A Gentleman and a Scholar
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Knights Templar
  • Game nicks: Templar_Bobby
  • IRC nick: boobby
Re: How to nerf archery, without destroying it.
« Reply #109 on: December 14, 2013, 03:56:40 pm »
0
He's telling people to stop playing cRPG, because if they do that at this point they might lose interest in M:BG as well. Paul is still butthurt over the fact that I knew about M:BG before him, and that he wasn't part of that crew. Still remember how he acted after the grand reveal. So it's obvious he wants M:BG to fail.
just wow
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

Hey, I just met you,
And this is crazy,
You just killed me
Nerf you maybe?

Offline Adamar

  • He who doesn't want to be labelled
  • Earl
  • ******
  • Renown: 422
  • Infamy: 319
  • cRPG Player
    • View Profile
Re: How to nerf archery, without destroying it.
« Reply #110 on: December 14, 2013, 04:06:49 pm »
0
Why are people saying there are many ranged on EU 1?

Offline Hirlok

  • Duke
  • *******
  • Renown: 624
  • Infamy: 122
  • cRPG Player Sir White Bishop A Gentleman and a Scholar
  • A friendly archer decorating your ass with arrows
    • View Profile
    • Gab.ai. Freedom of Speech matters.
  • Faction: Always Take The Shot
  • Game nicks: None that you need to know of - except Hirlok the Hermit.
Re: How to nerf archery, without destroying it.
« Reply #111 on: December 14, 2013, 04:09:03 pm »
0
Why are people saying there are many ranged on EU 1?

there was indeed some surge of 1slot bow my old friends and wannebeeeee hybrids after the last changes, has already worn off. but whiners gotta whine. Only real problem are xbows, damage bit tough and no dedicated skill requirements.
Hermit Status report : feeling a little social. Threatening melee my old friends with a comeback. Greasing the string of his old longbow. Carving certain names into the tips of his arrows...

Offline Adamar

  • He who doesn't want to be labelled
  • Earl
  • ******
  • Renown: 422
  • Infamy: 319
  • cRPG Player
    • View Profile
Re: How to nerf archery, without destroying it.
« Reply #112 on: December 14, 2013, 04:15:45 pm »
+2
Srsly 50+ people and less than 10 ranged right now, this has been it for the past few says, dont you 'critics' think you're complaining too much?

Offline Leshma

  • Kickstarter Addict
  • King
  • **********
  • Renown: 1466
  • Infamy: 765
  • cRPG Player Sir White Rook A Gentleman and a Scholar
  • VOTE 2024
    • View Profile
Re: How to nerf archery, without destroying it.
« Reply #113 on: December 14, 2013, 04:25:34 pm »
-1
wat? I hope that is satire. If not, get help.

Well I'm joking about the part where I said you want M:BG to fail. Of course you don't want that. But part about being butthurt after grand reveal is true. It ended after few days, but I've noticed your posts and the way you acted on irc. But we're humans so it's ok.

You like to tease me, and that's fine. For the most part, you have a point. But you also have your weak side and I like to point that out from time to time, dear unbalancer.

Offline tizzango

  • Earl
  • ******
  • Renown: 406
  • Infamy: 83
  • cRPG Player A Gentleman and a Scholar
    • View Profile
Re: How to nerf archery, without destroying it.
« Reply #114 on: December 14, 2013, 07:52:19 pm »
0
Well I'm joking about the part where I said you want M:BG to fail. Of course you don't want that. But part about being butthurt after grand reveal is true. It ended after few days, but I've noticed your posts and the way you acted on irc. But we're humans so it's ok.

You like to tease me, and that's fine. For the most part, you have a point. But you also have your weak side and I like to point that out from time to time, dear unbalancer.

Ughhh Leshma. Sometimes you make fairly reasonable posts, but then you come out with nonsense posts like this one and the one before.

I'm not sure if the former is just an act and the latter is the real you, or vice versa, but you need to think about what you post man :)!


On topic,

I agree with what Paul says about catering to the needs of 'melee chauvinists', I do think people make excellent suggestions on, essentially, how to reduce the amount of whine and therefore apparent disdain for playing battle aka 'nerf ranged'. That said, you should provide a more objective view Paul, with your position as a Dev it's disheartening to the community to hear a stubborn, rigid and subjective view, that has no apparent margin for change. Whilst this is also a game you may enjoy, it is wholeheartedly the communities game- you should take in their views instead of shutting them down with, as aforementioned, a subjective view; how you see the game should be played.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2013, 07:59:16 pm by tizzango »

Offline Zlisch_The_Butcher

  • King
  • **********
  • Renown: 1272
  • Infamy: 971
  • cRPG Player
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Faction: Frisian Church of Mork The Goat God
  • Game nicks: Zlisch
  • IRC nick: IRC nick: Tears
Re: How to nerf archery, without destroying it.
« Reply #115 on: December 14, 2013, 08:09:31 pm »
0
EU melee players you can always migrate to NA.
1H stab is the fastest, strongest and longest 1H animation. There's no reason NOT to use it in all instances. I don't know if it's OP, but it's boring. 1H used to be fun because you had a fast (left), long (right) and the most devastating attack (stab) and had to choose the best attack for each occasion.

Offline Leshma

  • Kickstarter Addict
  • King
  • **********
  • Renown: 931
  • Infamy: 174
  • cRPG Player Sir White Rook A Gentleman and a Scholar
  • VOTE 2024
    • View Profile
Re: How to nerf archery, without destroying it.
« Reply #116 on: December 14, 2013, 08:31:21 pm »
+1
Ughhh Leshma. Sometimes you make fairly reasonable posts, but then you come out with nonsense posts like this one and the one before.

I'm not sure if the former is just an act and the latter is the real you, or vice versa, but you need to think about what you post man :)!

Need downvotes from time to time, and I sure as hell know how to obtain them :D

Reknown:infamy ratio must stay close to 1.

Also, don't care about this thread. It was started by a filthy archer, and is filled with archers arguing how to nerf themselves. Real nerf archery thread is mine, all mine! :lol:

Offline kinngrimm

  • King
  • **********
  • Renown: 1026
  • Infamy: 320
  • cRPG Player A Gentleman and a Scholar
    • View Profile
    • The Betrayer of Nations
  • Faction: Wolves of Fenris
  • Game nicks: kinngrimm, Karma
  • IRC nick: kinngrimm
Re: How to nerf archery, without destroying it.
« Reply #117 on: December 14, 2013, 08:41:08 pm »
0
EU melee players you can always migrate to NA.
agi player with bad ping = no thank you
learn from the past, live the moment, dream of the future

Offline Rebelyell

  • King
  • **********
  • Renown: 1267
  • Infamy: 398
  • cRPG Player A Gentleman and a Scholar
    • View Profile
  • Faction: Knights Templar
  • Game nicks: Templar_Bobby
  • IRC nick: boobby
Re: How to nerf archery, without destroying it.
« Reply #118 on: December 14, 2013, 08:56:21 pm »
+2
It's almost kafkaesque to me. When I write assumption A is true because EU skill is higher than NA it's obviously ironic. How can I even know that? I fear Thomek actually believes in that and all the other stuff he writes. I think you all believe in what you write. That is scary, almost surreal.

Ranged is unfair because they shoot people. Shieldless melee is the only true way. Anything that forces melee to adapt destroys the fun of them and thus has to be destroyed by devs in return. Remove ranged, remove cav, remove shields because manual blocking is the only true way - the heart of Warband. Then we have our brave new world. This is sick.

So what do I think why cRPG loses players? Because its getting old. The capable main devs work on their own project. The dabbling substitute devs are inactive(Tydeus, myself) or busy elsewhere. There is no influx of new players due steam sales or player migration from other mods that died. Deal with it and wait for the new game. Personally I don't think cRPG should cater the sick fantasies of melee chauvinists to keep battle alive at all costs. For me that would destroy the heart of the gamemode.

Ranged is class that have to be on battlefield, best example was melee only server(aka broken crpg).
We can't properly balance crpg atm because of
hig lvl players
no clas limitation
upkeep play almost no role for some players
looms


If we will look at nojn loomed 30 lvl bulids with eq around 15-20k there is totaly nothing wrong with balance(archers 2h pole ect.)
but when we throw on that high lvl player with full loomed min maxed set, balance is something really hard to achieve.

(click to show/hide)

scale of battle and map play big role too.
I can understand that devs hate that QQing, especially you seems to be "bit" to soft on that point.

Quote
Shieldless melee is the only true way
shield cost:

cost money
weight
and skill points

I have 3 shield skill and to be honest it helps me alot, eu1 is not that bad anymore
but I still feel cheated out, 1 lvl, 3 skill points, weight and upkeep

Crossbow bolts shot me  through shield, archers around, I am slower and shield do not helps me in melee at all(archers do not shoot players with shield but only they to not know they can do shoot players with low shield skill)

Archers and xbowers have access to whole set of 0 slot weapons with really good statistics, 0 ps archer can fight anyone, defend himself from melee without investing single skill, WPF in to it.

maybe mele deserve easier access to tools that let them defend from ranged.

ahh yea I am 2h boy


« Last Edit: December 14, 2013, 09:09:10 pm by Rebelyell »
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

Hey, I just met you,
And this is crazy,
You just killed me
Nerf you maybe?

Offline Ronin

  • Marshall
  • ********
  • Renown: 859
  • Infamy: 198
  • cRPG Player
    • View Profile
Re: How to nerf archery, without destroying it.
« Reply #119 on: December 15, 2013, 02:56:10 pm »
0
I must say I agree with rebelyell and kinngrimm almost completely. Especially about the shield part, it feels like you have been cheated by investing into shieldskill at the first place. A shield, of course, still has it's uses but those skill points somehow do not worth that investment, mainly because of the excessive weight of shields. They slow you down way too much, therefore making the shield users to do worse in melee (combine that with the excessive range+duration of kicking).
Quote from: BlindGuy
Seems the fascists are gaining ground once again in UKR... right vving politics is SO bad for the general populace but STILL in times of trouble the uneducated turn to them for help, simply because they are so amoral they vvill supply those vvilling to fight vvith vveapons rather than knovvledge.

My UU key is broken incase you can't tell :D