How to nerf archery, without destroying it.

[Tydeus]

This is probably what cRPG lacks. The will of the players to organize and play for victory - even if it means going for MotF. Instead I have seen shieldless melee players charging an archer hill one after the other and complaining about it afterwards. It's like they claim the right to be retarded and still win. I might be alone with that but I think cRPG is about winning rounds. There a semi-organized inf pile defeats a cav and ranged horde anytime when playing for MotF cleverly. Ranged and cav feasts on stupid players but I don't think that this is reason enough to nerf them. Instead a more prominent MotF(maybe with spawned cover) and a penalty for survivers of a MotF loss would be my solution.

From the few rounds I have experienced where MotF actually functioned as intended(spawning with 5 or fewer players left on a team) or after having spawned in a good location at the start of the round, nothing like a penalty needs done. We just need MotF fixed and fully functional(Sometimes you can raise your team's flag until it stops, but the round still won't end). Possibly change how many people cause motf to be spawned, maybe set a specific spawn time that is early enough to ensure it spawns every round. It's just that simply having flags on the map automatically reduces the effectiveness of ranged(maybe not throwing) and cav.

[Kafein]

In cRPG no class stressed me as much as playing foot archer. The frailty combined with cadence induced tunnel vision was horrifying. Crossbow is so relaxing compared to it. Reload in cover with a calm 360 scan to access the situation. Archers got my respect, crossbowers not so much. For me it took less effort, skill and brain to play a successful melee, cav or xbow char than a semi-decent archer.

Back in Warband beta I started out as a melee-centrist; hating on cav, ranged and even shielders for being easymode low-skill classes. I hated because I didn't know. I rarely played anything different than melee. What opened my eyes was the Nationscup. We had a team consisting of almost melee people only. We even had to take in chadz as a crossbower. But we were still rather successful. Even with ranged 10 times more powerful than in cRPG you could win with an inf pile if you played with MotF. It was doable and for me it was fun. Russians finally defeated us with a nicely done scatter and shoot crossbow squad tactic. But I didn't hate on them for that. I respected them. I started to respect decent cav and decent ranged, knowing that it does take skill to be successful with them against an organized oposition.

This is probably what cRPG lacks. The will of the players to organize and play for victory - even if it means going for MotF. Instead I have seen shieldless melee players charging an archer hill one after the other and complaining about it afterwards. It's like they claim the right to be retarded and still win. I might be alone with that but I think cRPG is about winning rounds. There a semi-organized inf pile defeats a cav and ranged horde anytime when playing for MotF cleverly. Ranged and cav feasts on stupid players but I don't think that this is reason enough to nerf them. Instead a more prominent MotF(maybe with spawned cover) and a penalty for survivers of a MotF loss would be my solution.

Fun takes precedence over victory. I have better games to play than a cRPG where I'm forced into non-gameplay (guess why I'm playing siege). Sure, the behavior of melee players in battle mode is not always optimal, I'm not denying that. Yet it's still more fun than hiding and hoping someone else deals with the machineguns, especially considering nobody will do it anyway.

The problem here is that in Warband as a whole there are mainly two types of gameplay that are nothing alike : melee and ranged. If you add mounted to one or the other it's slightly different but what I will say remains basically the same. Fighting in melee, whether you are the one being attacked or you are the one attacking, is good gameplay where you are personally in control and is enjoyable in a huge majority of cases. Ranged "fights" are not at all like that. I don't remember ever encountering someone that finds getting shot at is fun, is gameplay or even leaves you personally in control of your fate.

The balance team won't be able to make it as enjoyable as melee fighting but at least the personal influence of the guy being shot could be increased. With current projectile speeds, it's basically zero. I don't see how very high missile speed makes the game better in any way but it's like that for some reason. I believe that's one of the rare things in cRPG that are actually realistic, although maybe that was the damage dropoff formula. Either way, missile speeds need to be nerfed.

[Rumblood]

Yes Kafein, we know you hate ranged and want it removed from the mod or made to be so entirely useless that no one in their right mind would ever choose it. We get it man, we get it.

[kinngrimm]

... missile speeds need to be nerfed.

Suggested by Stevie and the more sensible way of getting a balance.

Another suggestion i found sensibel, also not from me the biased shielder ^^, was to decrease shield weight or even make holding the shield up influence less the movement speed as it does with all blocks atm so that ranged could be approached faster. The last i would see to balance out the loss of the "force field" we had ages ago(something i wouldnt want back as arrows stuck in the air arround me always looked crazy).

Shielders were supposed to be counters to ranged, but they arent and ranged were supposed to be supporters, but they arent anymore either.

And again, i want ranged in the game play, as i can see the huge positiv effects they can have onto it, but atm it is more grieve then fun i and many others get through the "at times" huge numbers of ranged on the eu servers. As it is a numbers problem, i suggested quotas, but noone really wants those, even though logicaly that is the way to go, still if not that, then we need nerfs for ranged and/or buffs to their supposed counter class.

And devs while you are at it, decrease kick range by 2/3, decrease the 1h stabs effectivness, reduce the effects of the past overhead turn nerf.

Yes Kafein, we know you hate ranged and want it removed from the mod or made to be so entirely useless that no one in their right mind would ever choose it. We get it man, we get it.

I cant remember Kafein seriously saying anything about removing ranged. From those who argued here and on other topics concerning ranged balancing, he seems still to be the more chill here and additionally made some excellent points.

[Ronin]

Kafein I really appreciate what you do, you're tryint to understand and find ways of how to counter the ranged. But ranged is not as effective as you describe man, it's simply not.

Most of the maps, allow infantry to seek cover and force their opponents into melee. It is mostly about close encounters combat. City maps are even better for this, an example would be the nord town. Yes, rooftops don't really help that much with the addons in cRPG version (where there are more access to the rooftops).

You're saying melee combat is equally fun to the both sides, but ranged combat isn't. Well it is clear that you don't like it to be that way, but it is in the very nature of the ranged. It is about shooting something, preferebly something that can't shoot you back. Getting shot is of course not fun. Same for getting hit by a melee weapon. You'll say that "I can block the melee weapon, but I can't block the arrows coming at me. Ok I understand that logic, but there are other methods to deal with it.

You're saying that hiding from ranged makes it someone else's problem, well it is obvious you are looking from a solo perspective. Battle is not about surviving yourself by sacrificing your teammates, it is about winning the other team with your team. Just change your attitude to the problem and try a different approach maybe? I can give two ways how to deal with ranged if you really want to give it a try:

1-As corsair said, play in IG_Battlegrounds. It will improve your ways of dealing with ranged. You will laugh at yourself for getting shot only because you are getting shot by 2 archers.
2-Play as an archer in cRPG. To know the weakness of the class, you have to play it.

Now I don't know you already tried these, but I think you need more time with those. I feel like an asshole for giving advice to a veteran player like you, but I really want to help you.

[Kafein]

Yes Kafein, we know you hate ranged and want it removed from the mod or made to be so entirely useless that no one in their right mind would ever choose it. We get it man, we get it.

You are starting to become that guy that systematically ignores all the points being made and argues with imaginary straw men.

Kafein I really appreciate what you do, you're tryint to understand and find ways of how to counter the ranged. But ranged is not as effective as you describe man, it's simply not.

I wouldn't say ranged is extremely effective in the sense that it deals quickly with its preys. What I would say is that everything is ineffective at dealing with ranged, the least ineffective being ranged itself.

Most of the maps, allow infantry to seek cover and force their opponents into melee. It is mostly about close encounters combat. City maps are even better for this, an example would be the nord town. Yes, rooftops don't really help that much with the addons in cRPG version (where there are more access to the rooftops).

The enemy can just keep running. Seldom can you really force people into melee without exposing yourself very dangerously. Which also happens to be the typical "look how melee players r dum" argument.

You're saying melee combat is equally fun to the both sides, but ranged combat isn't. Well it is clear that you don't like it to be that way, but it is in the very nature of the ranged. It is about shooting something, preferebly something that can't shoot you back. Getting shot is of course not fun. Same for getting hit by a melee weapon. You'll say that "I can block the melee weapon, but I can't block the arrows coming at me. Ok I understand that logic, but there are other methods to deal with it.

There aren't many ways to avoid being hit by people that are shooting at you. Dodging is unreliable. And blocking projectiles with a shield doesn't work like a melee block either. In melee you can start to block when you see your opponent is attacking you. At range, if you start blocking when your opponent fires a bolt or arrow you will be too late. This means archers and crossbows that hold can lock you down at 50% speed for a considerable amount of time. And while this can be done in melee too, it puts the enemy at risk (nudges, spam etc.) and you can late block held melee attacks just fine for most weapons.

You're saying that hiding from ranged makes it someone else's problem, well it is obvious you are looking from a solo perspective. Battle is not about surviving yourself by sacrificing your teammates,

Yet that's exactly what people that suggest hiding are doing. So what should I do ? Hide or not hide ?

it is about winning the other team with your team. Just change your attitude to the problem and try a different approach maybe? I can give two ways how to deal with ranged if you really want to give it a try:

1-As corsair said, play in IG_Battlegrounds. It will improve your ways of dealing with ranged. You will laugh at yourself for getting shot only because you are getting shot by 2 archers.
2-Play as an archer in cRPG. To know the weakness of the class, you have to play it.

Now I don't know you already tried these, but I think you need more time with those. I feel like an asshole for giving advice to a veteran player like you, but I really want to help you.

I've played archer if you want to know, and I did not learn anything more about archers than what I already knew from my experience as shielder. About Native, I haven't done that but I believe that's not really worth the effort given the differences between Native and cRPG.

[Rumblood]

You are starting to become that guy that systematically ignores all the points being made and argues with imaginary straw men.

I've seen your points.
1: Ranged shouldn't be able to hit melee at range.
2: Hiding, dodging, and shields are useless.
3: There is no counter to ranged except for ranged and that should not be.
4:
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

[CrazyCracka420]

This is probably what cRPG lacks. The will of the players to organize and play for victory - even if it means going for MotF. Instead I have seen shieldless melee players charging an archer hill one after the other and complaining about it afterwards. It's like they claim the right to be retarded and still win. I might be alone with that but I think cRPG is about winning rounds. There a semi-organized inf pile defeats a cav and ranged horde anytime when playing for MotF cleverly. Ranged and cav feasts on stupid players but I don't think that this is reason enough to nerf them. Instead a more prominent MotF(maybe with spawned cover) and a penalty for survivers of a MotF loss would be my solution.

This is the solution to cries people have had since the beginning of Warband (or crpg) to nerf cavalry and ranged.  When infantry has an objective, they start to shine even more on the battlefield. 

I still think (in crpg's current state) that the better/more organized infantry horde still wins 90% of the rounds in battle.

[Kafein]

I've seen your points.
1: Ranged shouldn't be able to hit melee at range.
2: Hiding, dodging, and shields are useless.
3: There is no counter to ranged except for ranged and that should not be.
4:
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

1: Again, I never said that. There's a huge difference between "being able to" and "being guaranteed to". When I attack in melee I'm never guaranteed my attack will not be blocked, but that doesn't mean I am not able to attack.
2 and 3 are pretty much what I'm saying, if you take the word "useless" with a pinch of salt.
4: That's an image, which also did make me laugh. I don't like ranged, true. But that doesn't mean I can't come up with something constructive. This image is not an argument or even a claim I'm making.

[mrrdhardy]

Getting all in one from last nerf archery topic i suggest to:

1. Revert patch buffing non loomed archery gear.
2. Decrease amount of arrows per quiver (17 or 16 bodkins on +3 should be ok)
3. Reduce fire ratio for bows while shooting from horseback (devs done it to HX, so i think they can do it for bows)
4. Lower missile speed for low tier bows (Long bow should have highest missile speed, but it stay just like it is atm, rest should have lower missile speed with rule: lower dmg ->  lower missile speed)
5. Lower a bit amount of dmg added by arrows

IMO as an archer after this patch I'll be forced to stop spamming arrows if I would like to keep some for end of the round, and i'll have lower dmg (if i'll use non loomed gear)

Plenty archers are using non loomed bows (i can see it because i'm using hireloom models boss pack), so after patch they will GTX from archery or will start using slower and less acurate, but stronger and more expensive bows. HA will also stop to being a raiding gatling guns.

Steevee you are a Genius! 

[Rebelyell]

Steevee you are a Genius! 

sadly no one listen

[Rumblood]

1: Again, I never said that. There's a huge difference between "being able to" and "being guaranteed to". When I attack in melee I'm never guaranteed my attack will not be blocked, but that doesn't mean I am not able to attack.

Funny, I've been shooting arrows for quite awhile and I have not seen a single one "being guaranteed to hit".

[Adamar]

sadly no one listen

Because there's nothing new there. Same old nerfs.

[Jarold]

Yes please fix the MOTF to actually be an objective and actually work. I love it when the flag spawns almost instantly and the two gigantic infantry hordes clash. It's just so much more fun than how I usually have to play battle. I usually just avoid big enemy groups, but not too much or else i'll get left alone and be easy pickings, and hide from the ranged horde's vision. Please make the MOTF a real working objective for battle.

If the MOTF is made into an effective objective, I think the time that the flag raises should be increased a little.

[Kafein]

Funny, I've been shooting arrows for quite awhile and I have not seen a single one "being guaranteed to hit".

Maybe, but with the kind of missile speed we got, it's a hell of a lot more likely to score a headshot at 20m than not being blocked on a stab overture.