How to nerf archery, without destroying it.

[BlindGuy]

Archers in Vikingr were nerfed until they became something of a challenge to play as but the few archers in the mod were highly respected and still literal game changers for their teams.

While Vikingr did archery VERY right, and it really is a challenge to be an archer, even thought you can 1hit or 2hit most people:

VIKINGR AND NATIVE have an advantage crpg DOES NOT have: class limits. In native, or Vikingr, only a % of players can pick each class, with usually the main infantry class being pretty much open to everyone, and limits on cavalry, heavy inf, and ranged.


But we CANNOT do that in crpg atm, 2 reason: the largest being, HOW you gonna make people pick a different class? If an archer join eu1 and his sides % of archers if full, is he just unable to spawn? Or unable to spawn his weapons? Or what?

Second reason is: WHO decides what my class is? If I have a shield and a 1hander: am I a shielder? Youd think so, but I put 3 points in PT and invest in one WM's worth on points into throwing, grab 2 stacks of javelins: NOW, am I a shielder? Or a ranger? I only have 6 throws, so Im a melee class, but... I can oneshot an archer in the face, or a cav who is charging, so... Ima  ranger?

[Hirlok]

But we CANNOT do that in crpg atm

hmmm. BUNCH of if/else conditions, bit complicated to work out, but should be possible.. .

If it has longbow and more than 160 WPF, let it spawn, always
If 3 dedicated xbows are online and player has equipped 1h, shield, xbow and bolts - print "gtfo and come back without that xbow shit,".
...
and so on... not just "classes", but specific conditions that favor "dedicated" builds for every class.
and come on - who here does not have alts in several classes? if ranged is full, I get on my shielder...

[Adamar]

Or , and Im not saying I agree, introducing the ability to switch characters/builds mid game, and make it so players have to play at melee untill they reach a certain position on the scoreboard and get to chose their class for the next round. The first round choices would be random.

[UnholyRolyPoly]

You say shielders are not an effective counter to ranged? 

Let me ask you this....  3 sheilders charge three archers.... who shits their pants first?

Simple enough....

As far as the ranged nerf's...  did they do it to make sure Ranged stayed balanced to melee or because melee whined and cried like little girls every time they got shot? 

This game is the closest thing to a real combat situation.  And even if it is more of an action game YOU have the ability to adjust your build to changing circumstances.  That's part of the fun in CRPG.  It's also why you don't see as many archers on NA1 as you do EU1.  NA tends to build heavier and use more ironflesh.  EU tends to build faster characters.  It's not always the case of course but by in large most people would agree with that statement.  Therefore archers are not as effective on NA1.  We tend to have more throwers IMO and it's precisely because of the builds people use.  I suggest that if you aren't happy with ranged.  Build a character more equipped to deal with them.  If you don't want to do that then carry a practice shield. 

Anyways that's just how I see it.  I think it's total BS that the powers that be would nerf an entire class simply because people don't want to adapt.  At the very least a practice shield will solve 40% of your problem.

[Kafein]

You say shielders are not an effective counter to ranged? 

Let me ask you this....  3 sheilders charge three archers.... who shits their pants first?

The shielders. 3 archers run in 3 different directions. What do the shielders do ? If they each go for their own archers, they get shot in the back by the others. If they all go for one archer, that archer can just keep running, the group of shielders will never catch him, as the other archers will pepper them with arrows and force them to face away from the running archer.

Simple enough....

As far as the ranged nerf's...  did they do it to make sure Ranged stayed balanced to melee or because melee whined and cried like little girls every time they got shot? 

This game is the closest thing to a real combat situation.  And even if it is more of an action game YOU have the ability to adjust your build to changing circumstances.  That's part of the fun in CRPG.  It's also why you don't see as many archers on NA1 as you do EU1.  NA tends to build heavier and use more ironflesh.  EU tends to build faster characters.  It's not always the case of course but by in large most people would agree with that statement.  Therefore archers are not as effective on NA1.  We tend to have more throwers IMO and it's precisely because of the builds people use.  I suggest that if you aren't happy with ranged.  Build a character more equipped to deal with them. 

That's exactly what I've been doing for the last 3 years, because other classes can be easily dispatched even with the least fitting build. If I want to counters shielders I bring an axe and murder them. If I want to counter 2h or polearm I bring a ranged alt and murder them from afar, if I want to counter cav I bring horse ranged, ranged or just a pike and murder them. If I want to counter ranged I use my shielder main and stay in a corner with my shield up while not murdering anybody, but I at least I stay alive yay. What a great way to counter things, by not killing them.

If you don't want to do that then carry a practice shield. 

Anyways that's just how I see it.  I think it's total BS that the powers that be would nerf an entire class simply because people don't want to adapt.  At the very least a practice shield will solve 40% of your problem.

As I said, I could hardly be more adapted to ranged while not being ranged myself. Yet as a shielder I would more gladly face a group of three 2h axemen than a group of three archers.

[UnholyRolyPoly]

The shielders. 3 archers run in 3 different directions. What do the shielders do ? If they each go for their own archers, they get shot in the back by the others. If they all go for one archer, that archer can just keep running, the group of shielders will never catch him, as the other archers will pepper them with arrows and force them to face away from the running archer.

That's exactly what I've been doing for the last 3 years, because other classes can be easily dispatched even with the least fitting build. If I want to counters shielders I bring an axe and murder them. If I want to counter 2h or polearm I bring a ranged alt and murder them from afar, if I want to counter cav I bring horse ranged, ranged or just a pike and murder them. If I want to counter ranged I use my shielder main and stay in a corner with my shield up while not murdering anybody, but I at least I stay alive yay. What a great way to counter things, by not killing them.

As I said, I could hardly be more adapted to ranged while not being ranged myself. Yet as a shielder I would more gladly face a group of three 2h axemen than a group of three archers.

Sorry I disagree...  If three shielders are tracking three archers of equal skill I put my money on the shielders each and every time.  The only way your scenario plays out the way you described it is if one of your shielders blindly charges without any sense of awareness or tactics.  In your example I say kudos to the archers for great teamwork and SHAME on the shielders for being dumbasses.  That's kind of my whole point.  Awareness is everything.  The effect of ranged on a server is that it FORCES melee to fight together and be AWARE of their surroundings.  The easiest way to win every round is to pull the enemy inf away from their ranged and kill them.... then kill the ranged.  However people don't want to do that.  They do not want to use tactics.... they want to charge... and that is why they die.  That's the common denominator between NA and EU.  It doesn't matter what server you play on most people would rather bitch about ranged and demand nerfs than simply apply a minimal amount of tactics to the battlefield.  I don't know if it's because they have no concept of it or simply are too lazy.  Either way if I can work both servers and have minimal trouble with ranged and I don't even carry a shield then why can't other people?  Why am I not having the same problems everyone else is having?  Because I feel that if I get shot.... it's my fault.... not some OP ranged class lol. 

Furthermore I expect to be shot.  That's why I sacrifice 1 ath for some ironflesh.  I may not be able to do what a pure duelist build can do.... but I am versatile and usually stay alive.  It's a choice and rather than nerf an entire class who have already been nerfed so badly that MOST quit.....  people should consider adapting to the circumstances.

Look.... I'm not saying you are wrong....  I'm saying I disagree.  I LIKE what this has done to the server.  I LIKE the fact that range is relevant EVEN when they pop an arrow in my head.  If it's killing population (which I don't deny) then the devs will probably roll it back.  I'm ok either way.  But I was kind of getting tired of how mindless this mod had become.  I LIKE the fact that people have to work together again because it's not easy anymore.  However it appears that most people want an action game and I want a simulator.  It is what it is. 

[Kafein]

Sorry I disagree...  If three shielders are tracking three archers of equal skill I put my money on the shielders each and every time.  The only way your scenario plays out the way you described it is if one of your shielders blindly charges without any sense of awareness or tactics.  In your example I say kudos to the archers for great teamwork and SHAME on the shielders for being dumbasses.  That's kind of my whole point.  Awareness is everything.  The effect of ranged on a server is that it FORCES melee to fight together and be AWARE of their surroundings.

Sooo, what do our imaginary 3 shielders have to do to win ? I already described what would happen in the two most plausible scenarios (3 different shielders attack 3 different archers to maximise pressure but get shot in the back, or they all attack the same archer so that they are able to partially cover each other against the other archers but are therefore too slow to catch the one running away). Should the three shielders just wait in a triangle formation until the archers get bored ? With most shields and arrow types I think that would lead to all three shielders losing their shields after a while. From what I can gather, you think shielders are able to magically turn around the instant before an arrow is shot towards them. I'm not saying this is impossible, as I've seen that being done and done it myself from time to time with the view outfit key. I'm saying it does not work consistently enough, it slows you down and more importantly it supposes the archer you are chasing is not already aiming at you (in which case you are pretty much locked with your shield up and in that direction).

The easiest way to win every round is to pull the enemy inf away from their ranged and kill them.... then kill the ranged.  However people don't want to do that.  They do not want to use tactics.... they want to charge... and that is why they die.  That's the common denominator between NA and EU.  It doesn't matter what server you play on most people would rather bitch about ranged and demand nerfs than simply apply a minimal amount of tactics to the battlefield.  I don't know if it's because they have no concept of it or simply are too lazy.  Either way if I can work both servers and have minimal trouble with ranged and I don't even carry a shield then why can't other people?  Why am I not having the same problems everyone else is having?  Because I feel that if I get shot.... it's my fault.... not some OP ranged class lol. 

Furthermore I expect to be shot.  That's why I sacrifice 1 ath for some ironflesh.  I may not be able to do what a pure duelist build can do.... but I am versatile and usually stay alive.  It's a choice and rather than nerf an entire class who have already been nerfed so badly that MOST quit.....  people should consider adapting to the circumstances.

Look.... I'm not saying you are wrong....  I'm saying I disagree.  I LIKE what this has done to the server.  I LIKE the fact that range is relevant EVEN when they pop an arrow in my head.  If it's killing population (which I don't deny) then the devs will probably roll it back.  I'm ok either way.  But I was kind of getting tired of how mindless this mod had become.  I LIKE the fact that people have to work together again because it's not easy anymore.  However it appears that most people want an action game and I want a simulator.  It is what it is.

I can also use clever words like "tactics" and "adaptation", but until I'm shown that people in real public play actually do commit tactical errors and that other tactics would have worked, it will remain just words that can easily be thrown around to justify anything. I don't need any tactics to beat those 3 axemen I already mentioned.

[jtobiasm]

1. Revert patch buffing non loomed archery gear.
2. Decrease amount of arrows per quiver (17 or 16 bodkins on +3 should be ok)
3. Reduce fire ratio for bows while shooting from horseback (devs done it to HX, so i think they can do it for bows)
4. Lower missile speed for low tier bows (Long bow should have highest missile speed, but it stay just like it is atm, rest should have lower missile speed with rule: lower dmg ->  lower missile speed)
5. Lower a bit amount of dmg added by arrows The fuck????

Do this please devs, if you're getting shot in the first place it's your own fault, shields do work unless you're retarded.

[Leshma]

Just destroy the archery, take no prisoners

[Adamar]

Yes, it would be better to remove the class entirely than nerf it.

[Thomek]

No reason to theorycraft here. We all know how much lameness ranged adds to the servers. I see NA going 100 players while EU is sinking. There are ranged whine in here and on servers. NA has more a much more homofobic culture that thank god makes less people play ranged.

The other part is that they are generally worse players so the metagame hasn't developed as far as EU (yet). When people can block and melee skill is so high as it is on EU, going archer or ranged is a much easier choice.

It's like this: I get shot by an Archer, half my HP gone. I get struck in melee by a 2h/pole player, half my HP gone. I could go heavy armor infantry but that would just be to delay my death to ranged since then it is absolutely nothing I can do and it becomes even easier to hit me. Shielder is NOT an option, since I find it takes a away the main part of the game which is manual blocking.

Xbows are arguably even stronger and lamer and I suspect the only reason we don't have more of them is that they are notoriously boring to play. Nerf xbows first, and do it by lowering damage and increasing STR req.

Ranged=Lameness that destroys Melee
Melee=Intense, fun situations filled with adrenaline

We have to make a choice, this is not about balance, but of what kind of game we want. Do we want a realistic simulator of medieval combat or do we want a fun game?

Btw Steevee's suggestions make sense to me. I would just throw in a slight damage nerf on top of that.. Archery and Melee damage should not be equals!

[Paul]

It's almost kafkaesque to me. When I write assumption A is true because EU skill is higher than NA it's obviously ironic. How can I even know that? I fear Thomek actually believes in that and all the other stuff he writes. I think you all believe in what you write. That is scary, almost surreal.

Ranged is unfair because they shoot people. Shieldless melee is the only true way. Anything that forces melee to adapt destroys the fun of them and thus has to be destroyed by devs in return. Remove ranged, remove cav, remove shields because manual blocking is the only true way - the heart of Warband. Then we have our brave new world. This is sick.

So what do I think why cRPG loses players? Because its getting old. The capable main devs work on their own project. The dabbling substitute devs are inactive(Tydeus, myself) or busy elsewhere. There is no influx of new players due steam sales or player migration from other mods that died. Deal with it and wait for the new game. Personally I don't think cRPG should cater the sick fantasies of melee chauvinists to keep battle alive at all costs. For me that would destroy the heart of the gamemode.

[tizzango]

I saw this thread with the thought that it would just be another ranged discussion, that is believed to go unnoticed.

HOWEVER, as I made my way to page 2- I managed to spot something quite interesting.

Now, upon first glimpse, it is hard to believe. So I urge you to take a second look, because your eyes do not deceive you.

(click to show/hide)

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

They ARE watching us.

Winter is coming.

(click to show/hide)

Dec 2010

[/s]

Awwww, you ruined my post by interacting Paul

On topic, I do agree with what Paul says. I've specced to a shielder and love it

[Leshma]

Personally I don't think cRPG should cater the sick fantasies of melee chauvinists to keep battle alive at all costs.

Battle is already dead. Last night I saw many familiar faces on siege, like Teeth, Grumbs and other regular battle players. Teeth was "pleasantly" surprised how many archers are playing siege. It's not bad as battle atm but it's bad as battle before exile. You can try to deny it, but EU servers have way to many active archers/ranged compared to everything else.

Btw. you are right about manual blocking. I'm not good at it but for me, manual blocking is the reason why I play this mod. I'm not a duelist and get no fun out of it. In native duel server is the only place where you can run without a shield. cRPG battle/siege servers used to be that place. Not anymore.

Still get a lot of fun from DTV and Strat battles, but that's it. You'll rarely see me play siege from now on, battle I stopped playing awhile ago.

[Kafein]

It's almost kafkaesque to me. When I write assumption A is true because EU skill is higher than NA it's obviously ironic. How can I even know that? I fear Thomek actually believes in that and all the other stuff he writes. I think you all believe in what you write. That is scary, almost surreal.

Ranged is unfair because they shoot people. Shieldless melee is the only true way. Anything that forces melee to adapt destroys the fun of them and thus has to be destroyed by devs in return. Remove ranged, remove cav, remove shields because manual blocking is the only true way - the heart of Warband. Then we have our brave new world. This is sick.

So what do I think why cRPG loses players? Because its getting old. The capable main devs work on their own project. The dabbling substitute devs are inactive(Tydeus, myself) or busy elsewhere. There is no influx of new players due steam sales or player migration from other mods that died. Deal with it and wait for the new game. Personally I don't think cRPG should cater the sick fantasies of melee chauvinists to keep battle alive at all costs. For me that would destroy the heart of the gamemode.

Yeah, let's just argue there are no problems by taking pot shots at the straw man and ignore reasonable suggestions. You are literally telling people to quit cRPG, unless that post is an attempt at humor. I know cRPG development pretty much stopped, but you could at least acknowledge there are things that should be done.