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cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Siboire on October 11, 2011, 04:03:54 am

Title: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Siboire on October 11, 2011, 04:03:54 am
Being on a large warhorse and lose half it's hp with a single arrow coming from a horn bow. Lose half my health from a single arrow while on foot with 45~ armor... etc etc etc. All this OPness comes when it's a bodkin that hits me, my teamates or horses. The new "arrow determines the damage" system is bad (RLLY BAD) for balance. Also, with the new forcefield (hitbox, wtv the name) or the shields, its a lot easier to get shot "around" your shield! I got shot a couple of times trough it too using big shields like huscarl or heavy board shield...

With all this, I even made an alt archer and horse archer myself to try out before posting something on the forums. After trying them out, I can tell that they are IMO OP. With a horn bow and 5 PD I could stun/hurt goretooth (in all his heirloomed gear) and pretty much kill all other tincans there was. Plate users would fall as fast as the others under the fire of the new exploding number of archers. I recognize many names that were once 2handers/shielders that are now archers, plus the amount of new players playing archers... it makes some crazy amount of archers.

I don't really mind the archers themselves really... it's the fact that shitty bows like the Hornbow and lower should definitly not be able to do pierce. this also made the longbow near useless. Everybody uses either the hornbow or rusbow beside some rare longbow lovers that has an heirloomed one. Before the patch, whenever I would lose more then half my health from a longdistance shot, it would be a bolt (probably coming from an arbalest). Now, the bolts do less damage then when I see a bodkin sticking out of my belly.

I also made a gen archer right before the patch and I personnaly think the bows were perfect the way they were pre-patch. Plz, revert it.

The problem right now is that things are either being overnerfed or overbuffed. Just removing the pierce ability on all bows (beside longbow) should do the trick IMO.

Edit: Just before anyone says "l2p 2hander and buy a shield", I am no 2hander, I change class too often to even "give myself" any class and the classes I play include 1hander and archery every now and then. This has nothing to do with 2h lobbying.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Konrax on October 11, 2011, 04:31:29 am
It would be cool if the WPF for range weapons actually determined the armour penetration to a certain extent.

Like the heaviest armour would require a nearly pure range build to be able to get damage through the armour.

That way hybrids would be less effective against heavy armour.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Winterly on October 11, 2011, 05:03:56 am
While I think they do inflict a bit too much damage, as a 2H, I find it tolerable as long as I bring along a practice shield.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: MrShine on October 11, 2011, 05:09:03 am
The only way your warhorse lost 50% is if it got headshot.  The only way you lost 50% in 45 armor is if you were RIGHT in the archer's face...or it wasn't a hornbow, or you have ~50 hp.

Small tweaks could probably be done, but the bodkin change was great.  It really wasn't fine pre-patch.. b/c every archer just went longbow.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Siboire on October 11, 2011, 05:15:09 am
It would be cool if the WPF for range weapons actually determined the armour penetration to a certain extent.

Like the heaviest armour would require a nearly pure range build to be able to get damage through the armour.

That way hybrids would be less effective against heavy armour.

hmmm maybe but that would prolly mean A LOT of coding  :?

The only way your warhorse lost 50% is if it got headshot.  The only way you lost 50% in 45 armor is if you were RIGHT in the archer's face...or it wasn't a hornbow, or you have ~50 hp.

Small tweaks could probably be done, but the bodkin change was great.  It really wasn't fine pre-patch.. b/c every archer just went longbow.

No I was not in the archer's face lol and it was a tartar bow that actually took more then 50% of my hp. (the horn bow was in the situation with my large warhorse). Also, pre-patch there was not that much longbows, now you rarely RARELY ever see one.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: MrShine on October 11, 2011, 05:39:14 am
No I was not in the archer's face lol and it was a tartar bow that actually took more then 50% of my hp. (the horn bow was in the situation with my large warhorse). Also, pre-patch there was not that much longbows, now you rarely RARELY ever see one.

I call shenanigans, there is no way you will ever take 50%+ from a tatar bow in 45 armor unless you have like no hp or got hit in the head.  I have a MW horn bow & MW bodkins and I 3-5 shot most people, occasionally 2 shot peasants or light armored archer targets.

Longbows are one of the things that need a tweak right now; they are garbage until they get fixed.  If they get something to compensate for their low draw speed (perhaps a larger missile speed buff to set it apart from the others) they will be viable again. 
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Siboire on October 11, 2011, 05:55:56 am
Longbows are one of the things that need a tweak right now; they are garbage until they get fixed.  If they get something to compensate for their low draw speed (perhaps a larger missile speed buff to set it apart from the others) they will be viable again.

This I'm 100% with you.

But what I said before is no shenanigans. If you have 6-7PD with your MW HornBow and MW bodkin and you need to 3-5 shot ppl, then it simply means the guys you hit are STR stacking and/or they have heavy armor. But we are getting out of the subject. I made this topic to discuss the sheer increasing amount of archers and the fact that low lvls or non-pure archers can dish out GREAT amount of damage simply because they can do pierce with fast bows like horn bow, nomad and tartar. So atm, you can do a 15-24 build, use a horn bow, be super accurate and dish out a lot of damage at a really good speed. Normally it should be one or the other, accuracy/speed or great damage. IMO.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Tears of Destiny on October 11, 2011, 05:41:33 pm
Like the heaviest armour would require a nearly pure range build to be able to get damage through the armour

Every archer is a pure range build (Okay slight lie, about 96% of all archers are pure range builds).

Part of the problem are people not remembering when the random armor factor makes an arrow do almost nothing, but they remember when an inaccurate STR archer shoots them at close range and the armor variable tips at just 50% protection and they think "Oh, every archer can do this."

Honestly Native has a lot more range spam.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: RandomDude on October 11, 2011, 06:01:58 pm
its well known that 2hs will play archers until they are nerfed to their liking, then go back to 2h

i would play archer more but i suck, even with stf and i feel like im wasting time i could spend on my main
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Gisbert_of_Thuringia on October 11, 2011, 06:27:36 pm

The problem right now is that things are either being overnerfed or overbuffed. Just removing the pierce ability on all bows (beside longbow) should do the trick IMO.


I fully agree on that one!

Little ugly hornbow shouldn't be able to do that much damage and shouldn't be able to do pierce.
Same goes for rus bow. Make the longbow the only piercebow again
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Jarlek on October 11, 2011, 06:38:59 pm
Every archer is a pure range build (Okay slight lie, about 96% of all archers are pure range builds).

Part of the problem are people not remembering when the random armor factor makes an arrow do almost nothing, but they remember when an inaccurate STR archer shoots them at close range and the armor variable tips at just 50% protection and they think "Oh, every archer can do this."

Honestly Native has a lot more range spam.
Bolded part is the true problem. The very, very big problem. Making it better for archers to take some melee capabilities would fix so much.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Wookimonsta on October 11, 2011, 07:13:55 pm
Bolded part is the true problem. The very, very big problem. Making it better for archers to take some melee capabilities would fix so much.

this is a very good point, you don't need wpf to block, maybe without wpf blocking speed should be reduced as well?
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Jarlek on October 11, 2011, 07:29:36 pm
this is a very good point, you don't need wpf to block, maybe without wpf blocking speed should be reduced as well?
I was thinking more in decreasing the effectiveness of pure archers or something. Like the benefits are almost laughable so it'd be much better to take some melee. Like now, people are min maxing and taking nothing but PD and WM, then whining that horsemen/footmen can easily kill them in melee. One suggestion I came with was reducing wpfs affect on ranged. Bow wpf doesn't change accuracy, only speed. Xbow wpf doesn't change speed, only accuracy (or vice versa). Throwing only affects throwing speed.
They would still need the wpf per PD, so no just stacking PD AND make it so low wpf is VERY slow and high wpf cost too much for too little gain, so to make a sweetspot of good speed for wpp investmenet, making any extra much better spent on melee.

Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Tears of Destiny on October 11, 2011, 07:33:32 pm
Bolded part is the true problem. The very, very big problem. Making it better for archers to take some melee capabilities would fix so much.

I see the community has the memory of a WORM BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH or something like that.

Just a few months ago everyone was complaining that HYBRIDS existed, and that archers could pick up every weapon "ooooooh pocket flamberge (Or Danish if someone points out the unsheathable thing) archers! Onoz that archer can carry a melee weapon that is unfair that he can melee and shoot!" And now you are surprised... that you got what you wantd?

Seriously, just accept the fact that you are all inferior people who don't know what you want (since you keep changing your minds) and give me all of your looms.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Jarlek on October 11, 2011, 07:55:52 pm
I see the community has the memory of a WORM BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH or something like that.

Just a few months ago everyone was complaining that HYBRIDS existed, and that archers could pick up every weapon "ooooooh pocket flamberge (Or Danish if someone points out the unsheathable thing) archers! Onoz that archer can carry a melee weapon that is unfair that he can melee and shoot!" And now you are surprised... that you got what you wantd?

Seriously, just accept the fact that you are all inferior people who don't know what you want (since you keep changing your minds) and give me all of your looms.
Acutally I was always in favour of hybrids.

Although the pocket flamberges was really fucked up (especially when there was no upkeep).

But seriously, the slot system fixed hybrids much better. Give us some love! And just because more archers would go for 50-100 wpf in a melee sidearm would reallly not be op. Ofc, bitches would still whine just because them personally have trouble beating someone with 50 wpf xD
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Tears of Destiny on October 11, 2011, 08:26:41 pm
So how do you propose making an incentive for me to ditch PD, ATHL and WM for the PS I need?

Not going to happen.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Gisbert_of_Thuringia on October 11, 2011, 08:32:44 pm
I was thinking more in decreasing the effectiveness of pure archers or something. Like the benefits are almost laughable so it'd be much better to take some melee. Like now, people are min maxing and taking nothing but PD and WM, then whining that horsemen/footmen can easily kill them in melee. One suggestion I came with was reducing wpfs affect on ranged. Bow wpf doesn't change accuracy, only speed. Xbow wpf doesn't change speed, only accuracy (or vice versa). Throwing only affects throwing speed.
They would still need the wpf per PD, so no just stacking PD AND make it so low wpf is VERY slow and high wpf cost too much for too little gain, so to make a sweetspot of good speed for wpp investmenet, making any extra much better spent on melee.

NOnono!

Please don't change anything about the way wpf work on accuracy, damage or whatever.
There are certain reason why some archer (I for example) went for 8wm, while others sticked to 6 or 7. They can have athletics, powerstrike or whatever, whereas I can have max damage and accuracy.
Please do not suggest any changes on that^^


What Siboire suggested is actually perfect: Make bows define damagetype again and make longbow only bow with piercedamage. Devs are so often not caring about realism in this game, so why about the bow/arrow stuff?




Seriously, just accept the fact that you are all inferior people who don't know what you want (since you keep changing your minds) and give me all of your looms.

You share?^^
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Jarlek on October 11, 2011, 09:44:27 pm
So how do you propose making an incentive for me to ditch PD, ATHL and WM for the PS I need?

Not going to happen.
Good point. That's kinda what I've been thinking about. I don't want to nerf archers efficiency, just change it so going full archery-no-melee isn't as overall effective as archer-with-some-melee. Kinda like it was. Very few archers JUST had a bow and arrows, most had melee weapons and some melee training (except peasant "oh fuck enemies at the wall arm everyone we can find!" archers :P)

The real problem is to actually find a good reason for archers to give up PD and WM for others. The change I suggested would at least make those archers who go PD/WM only to use some of the wpf in melee (good) over only Bow wpf since it would help them the most. Pretty sure the same would apply for the only PD, ATHL and WM guys.

But as you mentioned, there really is no good reason they should take PS, at least not on paper. The main problem here is that 4, or even 5 PS, or lower is considered a "low" amount. 6 PS is the "normal" ammount of PS for most people, while spending just 4 points in PS might be a bit much for archers. I guess this would be fixed if they balanced out the massive advantage high STR and PS/IF gives you, would also make it easier for archers in melee.

Personally I run around with this on my archer alt:
(click to show/hide)
and it is pretty much the lowest you can go to be able to have a standing chance in melee (as an average melee fighter against someone not vastly outskilling you). I still die annoying "that bitch only won because of his better weapon and stats", but that's really ok considering I got a bow to shoot with too.

But if you got any nice suggestions as to how give archers a better incentive to not go pure archery and take some melee too it would really help. No need for us to rage like the other 98% of this forum and actually find a good solution. I really hope more archers would like to have some melee ability without having to "sacrifice" all of their melee.

Personally I'm not a fan of PS, PD and PT because they are such gamebreakers (only reason they don't break the game is because everyone who uses a weapon that gets boosts from them got loads of skills in them).
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Slamz on October 11, 2011, 10:03:33 pm
I think archers are reasonably balanced right now.  Once in a while, you can actually see one at the top of the kill charts.  Prior to this latest change, I don't think I have ever seen an archer on top -- or even in the top 5 on a reasonably populated server.  The top killers are always cav or 2-handers, which are incidentally the two things the archer can counter the best.

Archers are fairly well balanced by the fact that they can't wear heavy armor (which hurts their accuracy) and that high Power Draw also lowers accuracy, forcing them to choose between accurate-but-weak or deadly-but-inaccurate.  And it's not really feasible for an archer to carry a shield, so you end up with a lot of really low armored people with 1-handers, most of which aren't any good at parrying.

Invest in a little throwing and you can kill them with throwing daggers because their armor always sucks.  Cav should generally avoid the good archers unless they are fleeing from infantry.  (Bad archers will get tunnel vision and you can run them down while they shoot.  Good archers will look around whenever they hear hooves and will shoot your horse in the face.)
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Jarlek on October 11, 2011, 10:13:15 pm
I think archers are reasonably balanced right now.  Once in a while, you can actually see one at the top of the kill charts.  Prior to this latest change, I don't think I have ever seen an archer on top -- or even in the top 5 on a reasonably populated server.  The top killers are always cav or 2-handers, which are incidentally the two things the archer can counter the best.

Archers are fairly well balanced by the fact that they can't wear heavy armor (which hurts their accuracy) and that high Power Draw also lowers accuracy, forcing them to choose between accurate-but-weak or deadly-but-inaccurate.  And it's not really feasible for an archer to carry a shield, so you end up with a lot of really low armored people with 1-handers, most of which aren't any good at parrying.

Invest in a little throwing and you can kill them with throwing daggers because their armor always sucks.  Cav should generally avoid the good archers unless they are fleeing from infantry.  (Bad archers will get tunnel vision and you can run them down while they shoot.  Good archers will look around whenever they hear hooves and will shoot your horse in the face.)
Cav is the best for public games, worst for strat.
Archers are the worst for public games, best for strat.

That's the balance I see and I don't like it. I play this game for strat, not pub battles. But hey, shit like this is really important to discuss, yeah?

But really, all the times they nerfed archers they basically made it so they had to invest MORE skillpoints and wpf to be just as OP as they were during the "days of the hybrids" (when a part of your wpf was kept over after retiring and the average wpf was 200 or something), but losing their melee part. And it really is better to roll a full complete archer with no melee than a archer with minimum melee skills. That is the fault. Does anyone disagree with this? If so, please tell why.

I don't want archers to be fully hybrids good at both ranged and melee. I want them to be good at ranged with some panick/backup/oh-shit-he-got-close-to-me melee capability.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Bulzur on October 11, 2011, 10:34:26 pm
I don't want archers to be fully hybrids good at both ranged and melee. I want them to be good at ranged with some panick/backup/oh-shit-he-got-close-to-me melee capability.

So i can't even spam the archer once i finally reach one ? I'll need to fight fair and square, and... block ? This is it... this is madness... i'm doing this xbow hybrid.


Was a fine hornbow user prepatch, with some good headshot's kill, else doing crappy damage. Now, every "noob" can be deadly with an hornbow and bodkin arrows... there's no more of the "aim to the head" necessity, since your body shots still do a lot of damage. Overall, it "forced" most archers to take more than 5 PD, and just do bodyshots, with a... rusbow for example ? Imo, lack of skill desired to play archery now. Wich is a shame. Or maybe i only liked it when it was nerfed and i was one of the few hornbow footarchers, still having a decent k/d ratio...
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Argos on October 12, 2011, 05:27:48 pm
Nerf bow damage, buff arrow damage for all cut arrows (and keep the arrow determines dam-type), it's that damn simple.

We agree, at least I hope so, that bodkin arrows shouldn't be the standard and the obvious choice. For it to make sense, there should be a point where the best cut arrow loses the ability to deliver as much damage as the bodkin, and that should happen when it comes to the plate-ish armors, though accounting for gloves. To achieve this I would move some numbers from the bows to the cut arrows and leave the bodkin as it is. Against a poorly armored target the bodkin should take more arrows to kill than it does now, to give an incentive to use those cut-arrows. Reducing the efficiency of bodkins of course means lowering the price as well.
This would also give an incentive to use high-damage bows, who perhaps don't need lower damage with this change. You would again have to choose between high damage and penetration, forcing those who want penetration and good damage to choose the bows with 2slots and highest difficulty.

Think of this as hollow point bullets that tears flesh and gives the most stopping power, compared with AP rounds that go through bulletproof vests but ultimately cause less trauma due to the narrow wound.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Rogue_Eagle on October 13, 2011, 08:14:12 am
but if you make all the bows cut dmg except long then you're making those bows redundant again!

Arrows being CUT not pierce makes no sense anyway, unless every arrow was grazing the person >>

Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Zekerage on October 14, 2011, 01:35:08 am
The only change that should happen is changing it back so that the Bow defines the damage type. When it comes down to it, You're an Archer. Shoot your bow. Let the 2h, shielders, and polearms worry about the melee. If you want to be a Hybrid, then you have to make concessions. If you want melee capability, then you have to suffer in your range capabilities. You don't think that's fair? Go roll a Crossbower. That's what Crossbow is for.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Fips on October 14, 2011, 02:48:57 am
18/18 (5IF, 6PS, 6PD, 6WM, 6ATH, 150wpf archery, 50wpf 2h) is the way to go for an hybrid-archer. I really don't know why Hybrid-Archers should be buffed.

I am doing pretty good in archery (Although it gets pretty hard to win archer-duels with just 150 wpf), pissing off my clanmates alot and if i'm bored of archery i grab my messer or other weapons from the ground and go into melee.
Not doing great damage in both melee and range but it's enough.


And pls leave the dmg-system the way it is now. It was a good step to determine the dmg-type by arrows. Only thing is, longbow sucks now. Buff it. Or nerf the other bows a little bit so it's not THAT useless.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Jarlek on October 14, 2011, 03:28:42 am
18/18 (5IF, 6PS, 6PD, 6WM, 6ATH, 150wpf archery, 50wpf 2h) is the way to go for an hybrid-archer. I really don't know why Hybrid-Archers should be buffed.

I am doing pretty good in archery (Although it gets pretty hard to win archer-duels with just 150 wpf), pissing off my clanmates alot and if i'm bored of archery i grab my messer or other weapons from the ground and go into melee.
Not doing great damage in both melee and range but it's enough.


And pls leave the dmg-system the way it is now. It was a good step to determine the dmg-type by arrows. Only thing is, longbow sucks now. Buff it. Or nerf the other bows a little bit so it's not THAT useless.
Hyb-Archers shouldn't be buffed. What I want is for "pure" archers to have very big, very obvious disadvantages and for Hyb-archers, around the build you made, to be a much more obvious, better point and overall more effective. This would make it better for everyone as archers would stop running from melee fights (while still being at a disadvantage) and overall "I have super accuracy and can kill plate in (only, whine whine) 3-4 arrows but suck at melee so people should stop being angry at me and let me run away and delay and shoot, without giving them chance to fight back"
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Zekerage on October 14, 2011, 04:13:48 am
You keep saying you want a large obvious disadvantage for pure archers...... They're not melee capable (most of them, anyway)... what else do you want?
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Tydeus on October 14, 2011, 04:57:44 am
I see the community has the memory of a WORM BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH or something like that.

Just a few months ago everyone was complaining that HYBRIDS existed, and that archers could pick up every weapon "ooooooh pocket flamberge (Or Danish if someone points out the unsheathable thing) archers! Onoz that archer can carry a melee weapon that is unfair that he can melee and shoot!" And now you are surprised... that you got what you wantd?

Seriously, just accept the fact that you are all inferior people who don't know what you want (since you keep changing your minds) and give me all of your looms.

Indeed. I was never one who thought there was a problem with the old hybrid system, I only had an issue with the "sheathable" stuff. In the end I don't think people will really ever be satisfied with ranged. That's not to say there isn't a problem now (I'm not sure it's a big issue though).
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: PieParadox on October 14, 2011, 05:08:11 am
I feel range is pretty balanced right now, but with the build I have right now, I feel a little OP as a hybrid.

Level 31
IF: 0
PS: 5
PD: 6
Ath: 6
Riding: 6
HA: 3
WM: 6
150 wpf in archery

I have a good amount of athletics and PS to be able to finish off theoretically weakened enemies, especially if I only use 1 stack of arrows and use a mace/langes messer. But I play on Haven nowadays...

edit. Could max out PS instead of getting riding. Could keep 4 riding, and then have 3 IF or something. I would then be able to melee with 6 IF, 6 PS, and 6 athleticsThe only thing I would lack would be the WPF really.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Siboire on October 14, 2011, 05:45:08 am
Archery should be a support class, not some crazy killing machine like it is now. It's this month's flavor. There is just too many archers. Noobs are spec'ing archers cuz they can't melee but they can easily score kills by pewpewing and good players re-spec archers to buff their, already good, K/D ratio. Don't tell me archery is fine as it is  :shock: how can you not see it is too powerfull  :shock: :shock: :shock:

Also, all intelligent archers knows its better to use bodkins. Therefore, almost all archers use only bodkins. I can't call that "good arrow balance". 

Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Gisbert_of_Thuringia on October 14, 2011, 05:32:37 pm
Archery should be a support class, not some crazy killing machine like it is now. It's this month's flavor. There is just too many archers. Noobs are spec'ing archers cuz they can't melee but they can easily score kills by pewpewing and good players re-spec archers to buff their, already good, K/D ratio. Don't tell me archery is fine as it is  :shock: how can you not see it is too powerfull  :shock: :shock: :shock:


The usual blabla of a poor guy who hates to get shot  :rolleyes:

I have 2 melee chars and an archer and even I hate it to get shot by archers (which happens) but I can live with it!
Archery is in no way overpowered. THe only thing that needs to be changed is the fact that you can do pierce with every bow now :rolleyes:

And for god's sake stop this bullshit about "archery is only a supporting class" !!!!  That might be the way it should work in strat. But when I go on a normal battleserver to play alone with my archer, I want to get kills as everyone else playing this game. And there I am NO fucking supporter who shoots everyone so the melee guys can finish him and feel great afterwards because they have a  20-5 k/d !
I aim for a guy and I have to figure out how high I have to shoot, how far to the left or the right I have to shoot, if it is worth shooting him or not (cause an easy kill peasant is useless for example) and meanwhile I have to take care about cavalry or some wannabe ninjas coming from behind to stab me in my little 20body armour.
So now tell me why I shouldn't receive the good feeling of shooting someone and seeing how he falls to the ground with an arrow sticking out of his chest?

You could as well say that shielders are only a support class and their only purpose is to protect everyone else from incoming arrows  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: MrShine on October 14, 2011, 05:51:49 pm
good players re-spec archers to buff their, already good, K/D ratio. Don't tell me archery is fine as it is  :shock: how can you not see it is too powerfull  :shock: :shock: :shock:

I don't know exactly how much of a "good player" I am, but when I got melee I've enjoyed 2-3:1 KDs.
This gen as an archer (and I've done a lot of them) I have the kd of 1.4:1
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Laufknoten on October 14, 2011, 05:59:05 pm
Remove ladders from battle and stop the roofcamping, then ranged would be fine. 
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Adamar on October 14, 2011, 06:14:09 pm
Stupid poll, how about adding a boost archery option? Seriously, it's easy to hate archery if you haven't played it.

Get a shield instead!
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Gisbert_of_Thuringia on October 14, 2011, 06:37:13 pm
Stupid poll, how about adding a boost archery option? Seriously, it's easy to hate archery if you haven't played it.

Get a shield instead!

This "get a shield comment" is as good as the poll  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: ThePoopy on October 14, 2011, 06:39:28 pm
buff shield
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Penitent on October 14, 2011, 06:45:47 pm
bring a shield l2p
No more close thread and all other threads related to this its pathetic kthx.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Siboire on October 14, 2011, 09:07:09 pm
bring a shield l2p
No more close thread and all other threads related to this its pathetic kthx.

No more pathetic comments kthx. I played shielder and they fucked the hitboxes of the shield with the last patch. Using the huscarl and heavyboard shield some bolts or arrows hit me right trough the shield's model. It happened twice, my heavy board shield (biggest shield of the game), with 5 shield skill, was covering my face and i still got headshotted from a frontal shot. This happened with some side shots too, i got shot/slashed trough the huscarl shield model on my sides.

Removing ladders on battle Server would be good.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Gisbert_of_Thuringia on October 15, 2011, 01:05:55 am
No more pathetic comments kthx. I played shielder and they fucked the hitboxes of the shield with the last patch. Using the huscarl and heavyboard shield some bolts or arrows hit me right trough the shield's model. It happened twice, my heavy board shield (biggest shield of the game), with 5 shield skill, was covering my face and i still got headshotted from a frontal shot. This happened with some side shots too, i got shot/slashed trough the huscarl shield model on my sides.


As there are still alot of arrows just going through the chest or other parts of people it is quite fair that they also hit through shields sometimes isn't it?^^

And why does everyone complaing about shielders the whole time?
I have a shieldchar myself and I have no problems to block arrows or bolts or whatever. Maybe you should get more than 1 shieldskill?
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Remy on October 15, 2011, 07:24:12 pm
Several times in almost every round I have arrows magically go through someone without damage...with a ping of 24 mind you. ^^
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Cup1d on October 15, 2011, 07:25:44 pm
Buff l2p
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Gisbert_of_Thuringia on October 15, 2011, 08:55:13 pm
Buff l2p

 :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Wraist on October 15, 2011, 11:59:00 pm
bring a shield l2p
No more close thread and all other threads related to this its pathetic kthx.

I'm a hybrid thrower and polearm. If I can occasionally throw a throwing lance into a shielder's face while his shield is up, than you should be able to shoot them in the face, especially if you have an angle advantage. I also position myself at angles relative to them when they're distracted and throw stuff into their arms/back.

Yesterday, I found out that I could be one shot from arrows [excluding head shots]. In tribal warrior outfit, a body shot from tears killed me, and a body shot from some random person killed me [admittedly, I was pretty close to tears and he was on a hill]. The random person was pretty far away [and the oneshotting only happened twice].

For comparison, ignoring head hits [cause I'm not a helmet crutcher >.>], most melee weapons, including becs, poleaxes need to hit me twice in Gambeson.

Although, to be far, a different random archer did ~1% of my health at medium range in either tribal or Gambeson. I can't really comment anything else about archery, although in low armor they could do upwards of 50% of my life for most archers, and I think falling off of walls due to the lack of safety railings is a much bigger issue.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Tears of Destiny on October 16, 2011, 12:01:01 am
If it was yesterday, then 1X bodkins and 3X Rus Bow and 8PD is what I did. I remember one shotting a disturbing amount of people in that map... I need to remember to swap my normals for bodkins more often if playing on hills.

Normally though I use standards because I just like to pew pew and not kill anyone.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Gisbert_of_Thuringia on October 16, 2011, 12:26:21 am
I'm a hybrid thrower and polearm. If I can occasionally throw a throwing lance into a shielder's face while his shield is up, than you should be able to shoot them in the face, especially if you have an angle advantage. I also position myself at angles relative to them when they're distracted and throw stuff into their arms/back.

Yesterday, I found out that I could be one shot from arrows [excluding head shots]. In tribal warrior outfit, a body shot from tears killed me, and a body shot from some random person killed me [admittedly, I was pretty close to tears and he was on a hill]. The random person was pretty far away [and the oneshotting only happened twice].

For comparison, ignoring head hits [cause I'm not a helmet crutcher >.>], most melee weapons, including becs, poleaxes need to hit me twice in Gambeson.

Although, to be far, a different random archer did ~1% of my health at medium range in either tribal or Gambeson. I can't really comment anything else about archery, although in low armor they could do upwards of 50% of my life for most archers, and I think falling off of walls due to the lack of safety railings is a much bigger issue.

I am wearing tribal warrior outfit myself very often. I have no IF and my armour is not loomed and I hardly get oneshot with it.
I would prefer my most favourite, the pilgrim disguise but with that you are almost always a oneshot. That's why I started wearing tribal stuff, because you can easily survive 2 shots, even 2 hits from swords.

If it was yesterday, then 1X bodkins and 3X Rus Bow and 8PD is what I did.

Overpowered Rusbow together with bodkins and 8 pd....any questions why you got oneshot killed?^^
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Wraist on October 16, 2011, 12:29:03 am
I am wearing tribal warrior outfit myself very often. I have no IF and my armour is not loomed and I hardly get oneshot with it.
I would prefer my most favourite, the pilgrim disguise but with that you are almost always a oneshot. That's why I started wearing tribal stuff, because you can easily survive 2 shots, even 2 hits from swords.

I have 21 strength, 5IF, and I got one shot twice in one day. I believe I said it was rare, for comparison, my poleax went through more than one person more times in memory.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Tears of Destiny on October 16, 2011, 12:29:51 am
Overpowered Rusbow together with bodkins and 8 pd....any questions why you got oneshot killed?^^

Gone are the days of people mocking me for using a War Bow and not the Horn Bow! Gone are the following days of people mocking me for using a War Bow and not a Long Bow! Now are the days of me using a Rus Bow! AND STILL SUCKING! BWHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

It feels good to have every patch buff me in some way or another... without me ever changing a thing.

Anywho, remember that your armor provides a random amount of protection, ranging from 50% to 100% iirc.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Zisa on October 16, 2011, 03:47:01 am
I see the community has the memory of a WORM BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH or something like that.

Just a few months ago everyone was complaining that HYBRIDS existed, and that archers could pick up every weapon "ooooooh pocket flamberge (Or Danish if someone points out the unsheathable thing) archers! Onoz that archer can carry a melee weapon that is unfair that he can melee and shoot!" And now you are surprised... that you got what you wantd?

Seriously, just accept the fact that you are all inferior people who don't know what you want (since you keep changing your minds) and give me all of your looms.
Hi-larious!
Hybrid throwers - oo the good old days!

Unless the entire other team is archers, or being complete douches on an unreachable roof I have no complaints about them. I may make fun of them in game, but without archers things would get stale.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Slamz on October 17, 2011, 09:18:08 am
"Everything is fine".

It turns out that the solution to all of the 30 STR, 0 athletics people was the Great Archer Awakening.

It's okay to be a 30 STR goon in platemail as long as your team doesn't consist of 80% of just that, which is exactly how the game used to be.  Now if you are 80% two-handers, your team is going to lose because you're all going to get mowed down.

Now you need a reasonable mix.  Now there's a really good reason to hope you get some high agility fighters, especially shielders.  At 6 athletics and light armor, I can outrun most of these archers because most of them are strength archers with 5 atheletics or less.  Add in power throw 3 and some throwing daggers and they don't stand a chance.  The throwing dagger staggers them and I swap to my melee weapon and it's on.


So what I see right now is actually pretty reasonable.  Two-handers have been brought into line and other builds are starting to shine through.  This does upset a lot of two-handers but really it's okay if some of you keep doing what you're doing -- once your team has a handful of high agility "archer killers", they'll be tying up the archers while you amble around and deal killing blows, just like before.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Cup1d on October 20, 2011, 10:29:08 am
http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,18831.0.html

Looks like topic starter change his mind.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Xant on October 20, 2011, 10:31:48 am
http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,18831.0.html

Looks like topic starter change his mind.

Ummmmm.......... how so?

Do you understand what he says in the thread you linked?
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Vibe on October 20, 2011, 10:41:32 am
http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,18831.0.html

Looks like topic starter change his mind.

If you can't beat them, join them.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Cup1d on October 20, 2011, 10:57:46 am
Xant

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
 (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/804/siboire.jpg/)

Enough? Or did you mean something else?
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Xant on October 20, 2011, 11:02:51 am
Xant

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
 (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/804/siboire.jpg/)

Enough? Or did you mean something else?

The original poster thinks pewpew is OP/there's too much of it, so he wants to trade away his 2h and play as ez-mode archer instead so he can pewpew them back. How is that him changing his mind?
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: OttomanSniper on October 20, 2011, 11:06:25 am
Archery need buff, enoughly (11 time ) nerfed, its buff time !
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Siboire on October 25, 2011, 03:38:01 pm
The original poster thinks pewpew is OP/there's too much of it, so he wants to trade away his 2h and play as ez-mode archer instead so he can pewpew them back. How is that him changing his mind?

U read my mind ;)
And the longbow is one of the worst bow atm cuz now all bows can do pierce and can "outshoot" any longbow user and deal significant amount of damage. I was using a regular hornbow before going MW long bow and it was really ez even with only 5 PD and 148 WPF. I'm not saying longbow is not ezmode though... cuz it's still archery. But now, I'm mostly aiming at "known" archers or cavs and sometimes at 2handers/polearmers too close for comfort to me.

Archery need buff, enoughly (11 time ) nerfed, its buff time !

You sir, are a complete tard noob. Archery certainly does not need a buff (beside maybe longbow) but something that would remove the capacity of small bows (horn and lower) to do pierce IMO.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Okkam on October 25, 2011, 04:11:32 pm
better to be a noob than deserter
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Kay of Sauvage on November 07, 2011, 12:42:34 am
Archers are pretty powerful but I don't know if it's OP.

What I don't like is the sheer number of bow and xbows I've been seeing. People say "OMG, so many cav" in the few times there is as many as 8 cav on a team of 50. At the same time, 8 bows/xbows on a team of 50 would be considered a low count. I've seen what looked like 50% ranged on my team shortly after the most recent patch.

A high cav count doesn't really change the game, because the more of them there are, the more they just get in each other's way, give polearms a field day, and end up getting slaughtered by infantry and other cav. But a high archer count seems to change the game significantly. The game becomes a matter of figuring out how to fight while avoiding the inevitable archer's nest.

But I think perhaps the biggest source of the abundance of archers is the fact that so many maps on NA1 are hills/mountains and villages. It seems like every map involves archers camping up on a house that isn't easily accessible, or they are standing on the side of a steep mountain that surrounds the map, etc. Archers can often go stand all alone somewhere off to the side to get flank shots because they can outrun any infantry that might chase them down, while the hillside, a melee weapon, and some simple lateral movements will protect them from cav.



So... maybe if they just changed the map rotation a bit so that archers are sometimes left with no structures to climb up onto, no mountain vantage points to shoot from, and they must stand down on the flat land with everyone else, then maybe there would be less archers. The ones who can't stand to be out of their comfort zone like that might be encouraged to play as something else.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Tears of Destiny on November 07, 2011, 01:13:22 am
Sounds like you want cav map.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Kay of Sauvage on November 07, 2011, 01:23:31 am
Sounds like you want cav map.

Nope. I just want variety. My favorite maps are close quarter city maps, the maps people describe as bad cav maps and yell at me for taking cav at the beginning of the map until they see the scores at the end...
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Kophka on November 07, 2011, 01:30:47 am
Archers were a danger even when all the bows except longbow just did cut damage.

Just the sheer volume of fire and accuracy of arrows meant that good archers could often carry a team, while bad archers were a distraction, with the lucky kill thrown in sometimes.

Now that every bow can 2 shot people in less than 50 armor, and with the speed and accuracy of bows paired with the numerous hidey holes and perch spots that take time to reach while being shot on 90% of the maps mean that it's simple for an archer-heavy team to clear the field in minutes. Any shot that finds it's way around a shield or into an unshielded person is lethal or near lethal, which is very realistic, and logical.

As much as I enjoy that realism and logic, it has completely broken balance. Things were much more balanced when all bows but longbow did cut damage. Good archers were still terrors, and bad archers could hurt you.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on November 07, 2011, 02:12:23 am
Lot of people, including myself, have notice a strong increase in archers lately, and I, myself like to take my archer when ever i feel lazy, tired. Just need to aim and click and sit back.

Dont get me wrong, a basic archer alone isnt  overpowered.
but the mass of them together just negates all classes on the battlefield. the fact they can acces to roofs and break the ladders forbids any retaliation, and they only have to fear other range. you cant do anything about them and wait to the end of the round that an admin tells them to get down

another thing is the damage they deal
I remember Paul showing us stats about how efficient a 6 pd archer was saying that you'need more then (about, can really remember) 4 shots in best case scenario to kill a medium armor guy.
I dont know how you'v done your calculation but something must be wrong. the difference in between theory and practice is way different, succombing to two arrows in the bottom of the body in loomed mail and plate and decent if (that is 5 imo), i take more damage from range then anything else.
sometimes i get wounded for "only" 25% of my hp, i pass from a state of shock to a state of happyness where i feel like dancing around my polearm. but how come that archer damages less then the regular ones? looms? bodkins?

oh and please dont say the "get a shield argument " thats will just show your a git with no understandng of the problem
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Tears of Destiny on November 07, 2011, 02:18:25 am
Get a shield you scrub.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Gorath on November 07, 2011, 03:00:21 am
Get shot around, through and over an overnerfed shield you scrub.

Fixed
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Chico on November 07, 2011, 08:16:05 am
Lower prices of plate armor and buff ironflesh.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on November 07, 2011, 07:56:09 pm
start by removing ladders from battle.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Leshma on November 07, 2011, 08:06:15 pm
I would prefer hybrid archers instead of those ak-47 archers. Give them melee ability back (make bastard swords one slot and lower wpp cost if going archery/melee hybrid) but make arrows deal laughable damage.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Okkam on November 07, 2011, 08:10:50 pm
No. Better give all 2H free 0 slot steel shields, but make swords deal laughable damage.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Leshma on November 07, 2011, 08:15:13 pm
Swords already deal little to no damage compared to bodkin arrows...
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Okkam on November 07, 2011, 08:27:59 pm
That's why I see something like 30\2 from good 2H players?


Leshma - you are Michael N2. seriously.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Kafein on November 07, 2011, 08:31:26 pm
Bolded part is the true problem. The very, very big problem. Making it better for archers to take some melee capabilities would fix so much.

This please. Nerf archery damage ( slightly) but reduce the distance damage reduction, and make it a lot more viable as melee.

I think the wpf curve of ranged classes should have it's cost-efficiency peak around 100 wpf. The accuracy at that level should be roughly that of the current 120 wpf, and any further points should give much smaller bonuses. That way, most archers would go 100-120 wpf in archery, the rest in some melee class.

Furthermore, skills like PT, PS and PD should have a degressive bonus : the first one is big and each additionnal point gives less than the previous one. That way it would actually be a good idea to go 5PS 6PD or whatever.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Penitent on November 07, 2011, 09:38:32 pm
I dont know guys, I think the poll speaks for itself.

Is archery fine the way it is?

54.4% say:
yeah, everything is fine.
Yeah, everything is fine but longbow needs some love.
Ihatearchers.rage.qq.com (sarcastic response I'm assuming).

45.5% say:

No, something needs to be changed. There is too many archers using bodkins.
No, something needs to be changed. All archers are OP.
No, something needs to be changed. Archers hit like a truck. QQ
 
Moral of the story: bring a shield, bring a siege shield or hide behind someone else who has the foresight to do so.  ;)

Archers are pretty balanced, and they do best against 2h/pole users...which is probably the majority of the player base.  They are designed to kill ppl without a shield, so don't become a statistic.  "Well" you may say, "if archers are well equipped to be the bane of the majority of the crpg player-base...how can they possible be balanced?"  Well, because they are such, if creates a demand for shielders and shield walls.  If we nerf archery, shield users become less important...so we end up nerfing those too.  Their strength (nullifying ranged) becomes less valuable.  Archers must remain deadly so that other classes retain their importance as well.

I'm a multi-gen shielder and I also bring a siege shield most of the time for my ignorant/squishy teamies.  I've never had a problem with archers.  Yes, I die to them sometimes, but its the least of my worries.  I don't see archers as OP at all..but since other people do, it gives me a sense of purpose and importance, thereby increasing fun!

So, as a shielder, leave archers alone. :)
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Memento_Mori on November 07, 2011, 10:21:03 pm
Get rid of unbalanced, hill, random roof top, village maps.
Get rid of ladders in battle.
Get normal maps where camping locations have more than ONE way up and are easily accessible without lucky jumps onto barrels or what not and then onto rooftops.


IMO ranged classes are fine, but the above things are a little frustrating.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Zisa on November 07, 2011, 10:35:03 pm
Get rid of unbalanced, hill, random roof top, village maps.
Get rid of ladders in battle.
Get normal maps where camping locations have more than ONE way up and are easily accessible without lucky jumps onto barrels or what not and then onto rooftops.


IMO ranged classes are fine, but the above things are a little frustrating.
+1
most rage really is from these sources.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Fraemi on November 07, 2011, 10:42:50 pm
+1
most rage really is from these sources.

I agreed for the most part and didn't feel particularly moved, but then I read all the text on left, laughed and gave a +1 to both you and him.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: MaHuD on November 07, 2011, 11:49:00 pm
You guys do realize that in Native, archers have DOUBLE ammo, DOUBLE range, INCREASED firespeed and can wear ARMOR without any penalty?
If Archery is OP here, it would be Godlike in Native...
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Okkam on November 08, 2011, 12:29:16 am
ATM cRPG is sandbox for silly tincans. There you have longer twohanders\poleaxes with more damage than in Native, insane armors (you cant have more than 64 body armor in native mp, also in cRPG armor have less weight), bonuses from loomed items, xbows with ridiculous damage and accuracy, horses from LOTR. You can have unbreakable shield here. You can do any character you want. But every two days someone must make another sea of tears\fountain of shit about something OP. Pity.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Thucydides on November 20, 2011, 06:42:01 pm
Bump because bodkins makes every frickin bow a plate killer. Longbow is shit, hornbow/tatar bow with bodkin takes me down in 4 hits, in 62 body armor, whut?
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: justme on November 21, 2011, 12:48:58 am
WHY ALL MELEE WENT TO PLAY SKYRIM, AND ARCHERS STAYED HERE?
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Gorath on November 21, 2011, 01:26:15 am
WHY ALL MELEE WENT TO PLAY SKYRIM, AND ARCHERS STAYED HERE?

Because all the ranged made this mod gay.  Just like it did to native.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Elmokki on November 21, 2011, 01:45:13 am
Archers need to get slower rate of fire and longbow - the slow bow - should be the premier piercing tin can opener bow further decreasing the average pewpew speed on the field. The kiting is retarded too and something should be done - a RoF nerf would help.

Something is seriously wrong when a) archers have suddenly became A LOT more common and b) the counter to a single archer, shielder, can't catch the archer at all.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Gorath on November 21, 2011, 01:49:05 am
shielder, can't catch the archer at all.
This is why I succumed to even more bundle of sticksry than just going shielder.  By going cav with a shield.  Problem is that 1 arrow takes off 80-90% of my horses HP from a body shot, and I ride a destrier or large warhorse pretty much all the time.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Jarlek on November 21, 2011, 01:52:23 am
Because all the ranged made this mod gay.  Just like it did to native.
Agreed. Pray for a archer-nerf patch for when chadz gets tired of Skyrim.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Elmokki on November 21, 2011, 01:53:06 am
This is why I succumed to even more bundle of sticksry than just going shielder.  By going cav with a shield.  Problem is that 1 arrow takes off 80-90% of my horses HP from a body shot, and I ride a destrier or large warhorse pretty much all the time.

Yeah, I'd like to rephrase.

Some heavily agility orientated shield build running nearly naked might be able to catch an archer too, but it's a built that will sacrifice a lot to achieve this.

Horsemen aren't a good counter since a) rooftops b) horses die
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Old_Sir_Agor on November 21, 2011, 03:04:57 am
This is why I succumed to even more bundle of sticksry than just going shielder.  By going cav with a shield.  Problem is that 1 arrow takes off 80-90% of my horses HP from a body shot, and I ride a destrier or large warhorse pretty much all the time.

this dmg can make only headshoot to horse, i with mw arbalest+mw steel bolts cant kill mw destrier with 2shoots, sometimes it die ofc, but many times it need 3, i remember couple times leeds courseer need 3 my shoots, and i think 3-5 shoots from archer to tincan is pretty normal to kill him, it is not so easy to shoot some1 3-5 times because he has shield or he dodge arrows.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Kay of Sauvage on November 21, 2011, 04:52:32 am
Let's talk about the ability of ranged units to go wherever they want without care of needing allies to support them and offer protection. Archers move into unsupported positions on the flanks where they can shoot into the flanks of the enemy, and it's a big part of the imbalance problem.

Against cavalry, xbows aren't the problem.
(click to show/hide)

Throwers aren't the problem.
(click to show/hide)


Archers, on the other hand, can be all alone just fine, even against cav.
(click to show/hide)




So how about this? Make archers unable to draw and shoot while moving. They must be standing still to draw and shoot. Now if they are all alone somewhere without support, at least a cav can force them into a melee battle and not just get shot up at point blank range. This would help a little to discourage archers from being untouchable loners that surround enemy infantry from all different angles.

This also means it'd be harder for them to shoot while kiting infantry and doing any kind of point-blank shooting versus opponents. Plus they won't be dodging arrows while drawing the bow and will make themselves vulnerable to other archers while trying to shoot. So the biggest threat to archers may be other archers. And it'd finally give xbows something that archers wouldn't have, the ability to move and shoot.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Gorath on November 21, 2011, 05:06:32 am
Let's talk about the ability of ranged units to go wherever they want without care of needing allies to support them and offer protection. Archers move into unsupported positions on the flanks where they can shoot into the flanks of the enemy, and it's a big part of the imbalance problem.

Against cavalry, xbows aren't the problem.
(click to show/hide)

Throwers aren't the problem.
(click to show/hide)


Archers, on the other hand, can be all alone just fine, even against cav.
(click to show/hide)




So how about this? Make archers unable to draw and shoot while moving. They must be standing still to draw and shoot. Now if they are all alone somewhere without support, at least a cav can force them into a melee battle and not just get shot up at point blank range. This would help a little to discourage archers from being untouchable loners that surround enemy infantry from all different angles.

This also means it'd be harder for them to shoot while kiting infantry and doing any kind of point-blank shooting versus opponents. Plus they won't be dodging arrows while drawing the bow and will make themselves vulnerable to other archers while trying to shoot. So the biggest threat to archers may be other archers. And it'd finally give xbows something that archers wouldn't have, the ability to move and shoot.

I.....
can't find anything to really flame here.  So I will just agree and +1 your post.
I hope you're just fuckin' happy about this sad turn of events  :mad:

this dmg can make only headshoot to horse, i with mw arbalest+mw steel bolts cant kill mw destrier with 2shoots, sometimes it die ofc, but many times it need 3, i remember couple times leeds courseer need 3 my shoots, and i think 3-5 shoots from archer to tincan is pretty normal to kill him, it is not so easy to shoot some1 3-5 times because he has shield or he dodge arrows.

No.  My xbower only needs 2 non-head-shots from my regular x-bow to down any horse but armored ones.  My archer regularly only needs 2-3.  Armored horses are a bit different, but they are slow enough that as long as I side step properly I can literally circle shoot them as they turn trying desperately to hit me.  Only 3x heirloomed cataphracts seem to have the 0-degree turning radius necessary to keep me worried.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Old_Sir_Agor on November 21, 2011, 05:23:48 am

No.  My xbower only needs 2 non-head-shots from my regular x-bow to down any horse but armored ones.  My archer regularly only needs 2-3.  Armored horses are a bit different, but they are slow enough that as long as I side step properly I can literally circle shoot them as they turn trying desperately to hit me.  Only 3x heirloomed cataphracts seem to have the 0-degree turning radius necessary to keep me worried.

usually i need maximum 2 also, but from arbalest, but dont lie to me, you cant kill mw destrier with 2 shoots from regular xbow, i think you cant kill even mw courser.

btw i read topic and what all want? that archers can kill inf woth 10 shoots minimum? archers loom their stuff, without loomed stuff archer is nothing, they they shoud aim very good, and only then they can rape hard in solo.
I think in game is to much armor loomed hard infantry, so new players go ranged just for have possobility make some dmg and dont die immidietly.

But thing that i really cant understand is why in the rain archers have 10% dmg penalty and xbow 25%? i think shooting from xbow in the rain is a bit easier then from bow in real life...
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Gorath on November 21, 2011, 06:20:51 am
mw destrier

My horses are not MW.

If we're balancing around MW's then this mod is truly stupid as that completely makes the game a pile of shit for anyone that isn't some massive 24/7 no life grinder who's amassed a shit ton of looms through scamming, exploiting pre-patch broken shit, or whatnot.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Aseldo on November 21, 2011, 08:36:19 am
Idk what game you play but even with 8 PD, mw horn bow and mw bodkins I was doing like 30% damage to tincans per shot from average range.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Old_Sir_Agor on November 21, 2011, 09:58:26 am
My horses are not MW.

If we're balancing around MW's then this mod is truly stupid as that completely makes the game a pile of shit for anyone that isn't some massive 24/7 no life grinder who's amassed a shit ton of looms through scamming, exploiting pre-patch broken shit, or whatnot.

i think all good players have much masterwork stuff right now, and they are power. No point to speak here about new players or noobs or alts.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: justme on November 21, 2011, 10:20:57 am
im not talking about damage, im talking about how archers shoot and run easily from battle, i could understand if they carry lower tier bows, but those better should make them slower.. if not for realism then for balance
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Chaos on November 21, 2011, 10:31:29 am
1) increase quiver weight

2) fix maps by nerfing archer perches

3) reduce arrow count

imo
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Old_Sir_Agor on November 21, 2011, 10:37:36 am
lol you never think why here is so many ranged? because all infantry is skilled now, super blocking and so, they all have good loomed armor and weapons, and new players or who cant play so good, go ranged, for killing this mashines and survuve longer.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Elmokki on November 21, 2011, 01:30:49 pm
About the stop to draw and shoot thing, you could make it partially happen like that. Allow putting the arrow to the string while moving, but slow down / stop the archer when he draws the string.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Jarlek on November 21, 2011, 01:38:26 pm
(click to show/hide)
THIS is what infuriated me the most as cav! Thank you for explaining it that well! +1 for you.

Idk what game you play but even with 8 PD, mw horn bow and mw bodkins I was doing like 30% damage to tincans per shot from average range.
I don't know if you think that is too much or too little, but...

How is 30% per arrow NOT overpowered? That's 4 arrows to kill a guy in the highest armour. That is WAY too much. Ranged fire should NEVER do that much damage, apart from headshots. The really annoying thing is that it's still very accurate even with 8PD. Something is VERY wrong here...
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Leshma on November 21, 2011, 01:58:47 pm
lol you never think why here is so many ranged? because all infantry is skilled now, super blocking and so, they all have good loomed armor and weapons, and new players or who cant play so good, go ranged, for killing this mashines and survuve longer.

So ranged in this mod is basically a shortcut, an easy mode for those who aren't willing to learn.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Old_Sir_Agor on November 21, 2011, 03:09:13 pm
So ranged in this mod is basically a shortcut, an easy mode for those who aren't willing to learn.

for me it is, i can climb somewhere and make kills, and in melee i can have lil freeze= death, or some chase find me=death, or cav bump me=death, also i need long days of blocking and dueling practic, and many ranged i only goes mad and so.... so ofc i will go ranged make pew pew and have fun 8-)
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Gorath on November 21, 2011, 05:25:56 pm
lol you never think why here is so many ranged? because all infantry is skilled now, super blocking and so, they all have good loomed armor and weapons, and new players or who cant play so good, go ranged, for killing this mashines and survuve longer.

So in other words they are skill-less bundle of stickss taking ez-mode shortcuts.  Sorry, they don't deserve shit then.  Nerf ranged more.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Old_Sir_Agor on November 21, 2011, 05:57:32 pm
Gorath present then loomed armor stuff to all new players, then maybe they will try to learn and maybe it will be less raned, be sweet pie!
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: justme on November 21, 2011, 09:02:13 pm
for me it is, i can climb somewhere and make kills, and in melee i can have lil freeze= death, or some chase find me=death, or cav bump me=death, also i need long days of blocking and dueling practic, and many ranged i only goes mad and so.... so ofc i will go ranged make pew pew and have fun 8-)

you just need to get fun and play the game, you will learn block very soon, and when u kill chase in duel, you ll have more satisfaction than all yours range kills...
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Vodner on November 21, 2011, 11:18:19 pm
Gorath present then loomed armor stuff to all new players, then maybe they will try to learn and maybe it will be less raned, be sweet pie!
Armor looms do need a nerf. That being said, you absolutely do not need armor looms to do well in battle. That's a cop-out.

(As an aside, I have seen a few 2h running around who cannot block well, and who rely on their loomed armor / high IF to get kills. I would really like to see that playstyle shut down - if you use a 2h weapon, you should have to be able to block consistently to get kills. That's supposed to be the tradeoff for 2h - increased damage and range, at the cost of needing to manually block)
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Rumblood on November 22, 2011, 03:44:30 am
THIS is what infuriated me the most as cav! Thank you for explaining it that well! +1 for you.
I don't know if you think that is too much or too little, but...

How is 30% per arrow NOT overpowered? That's 4 arrows to kill a guy in the highest armour. That is WAY too much. Ranged fire should NEVER do that much damage, apart from headshots. The really annoying thing is that it's still very accurate even with 8PD. Something is VERY wrong here...

Funny, you people are lumping the two different types of archer together with the strengths of both types and then act like ALL archers can both run like the wind, shoot with 10 PD, and swing a two hander around like it was a switch. Every archer build has its strengths and its weaknesses. Complaining that someone with 8 PD shouldn't be accurate with a light horn bow is like saying someone with 8 PD and wielding a katana shouldn't be fast.

I'm the archer that runs around your horse that you can't catch. Why? I only use PD 4 or PD 5 with a Tatar or Horn bow and usually have 7 or 8 athletics and 8 Weapon Mastery, sacrificing points for WPF so that yes, I can pull out my melee weapon and spear your pony to the ground. I DESIGNED this build to go against these OverPowered Cavalry players who used to be able to just bump charge archers into submission. No QQ'ing over it. I gave up the ability to deal with tincans in order to take out your horses. I'm fast, accurate, and I have enough wpf in polearms to make your life miserable. I am pleased to hear that it is working  :P

BTW, it was Cavalry who brought this on themselves! Oh? Don't recall? YOU COMPLAINED ABOUT JUMP SHOTS! Bet you wish they were back. So what did you get? Archers lost jumpshots, but regained acceleration in athletics, while you cavalry lost your ability to spin on a dime and knock every melee in a circle down while spinning your lance in a 360. Rollback the patch?


Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Havoco on November 22, 2011, 04:18:05 am
Archer stats are fine, it's there strategic value that makes them stand out from the crowd (and thus be hated by some of the community).
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Gorath on November 22, 2011, 07:18:49 am
BTW, it was Cavalry who brought this on themselves!

Actually it all stems from ranged.  I am dedicated infantry that finally was FORCED into going cav just to have a chance to catch up to those bundle of sticks kiting archers.  Also FORCED into playing with a bundle of sticks shield, which hardly seems to afford any protection at all since the nerf, in order to survive getting to the archer with a few hp to fight him if I DO catch his kiting ass.

Funny, on the melee only server before they said no horses cav and infantry seemed to work fine without ranged.  Infantry guys packed a few pikers, cav guys could charge in with reasonable horse health and without 3+ projectiles sticking out of the horse.  Fun times.

All problems in warband have really boiled down to ranged.  Native turned to shit.  Why?  Everyone and their fucking brother just played archer.  cRPG's biggest bitch?  Everyone and their fucking brother plays archer.  Difference being here they have stupid ladders and perfect immunity from anyone besides OTHER RANGED, until the admin yells at them to get off the fucking roofs.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Elmokki on November 22, 2011, 11:46:13 am
I find that the problem boils down to the fact that for ranged to be balanced it should be a support class, but what people want ranged to be is a Legolas. That's what any decent archer is now: chain fire of rather deadly arrows.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: rustyspoon on November 22, 2011, 12:36:07 pm
A nice, easy and quick fix would be to un-nerf shields. Hiding behind your teammates shield could actually mean something again.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Jarlek on November 22, 2011, 12:54:14 pm
A nice, easy and quick fix would be to un-nerf shields. Hiding behind your teammates shield could actually mean something again.
Fuck that! Hiding behind your OWN shield should mean something!
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: rustyspoon on November 22, 2011, 01:23:28 pm
Fuck that! Hiding behind your OWN shield should mean something!

Yeah, I'm pretty disappointed with all of the changes that have happened to shields. You're better off without one.

1. They are easy to hit around.
2. They are easy to shoot around.
3. They slow your movement speed a lot.
4. You block slower than if you were manual blocking.
5. A friendly standing next to you with a shield can block your attacks due to the new collision detection.
6. They aren't a good counter to archers because you won't be able to catch the archer anyway, unless he is a complete idiot.

Not to mention how easy they are to break. Oh and before all the 2h start crying that they can't break them with one swing of their sword, a shield will go down in about 2-5 hits from an axe.

The only good time to use a shield is if you ride a horse, since a shield provides magical protection to multiple areas of your horse.

As they stand now, they are more of a liability than anything.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Elmokki on November 22, 2011, 01:59:50 pm
6. They aren't a good counter to archers because you won't be able to catch the archer anyway, unless he is a complete idiot.

This. It was very frustrating as a shielder that the thing that's supposedly a counter is only good for protecting yourself against a single archer. Catching archers? Impossible unless you surprise them. Surviving against more than one archer? Possible, but your best option is to run away while doing that since you can't do anything at all to them.

Not to mention how easy they are to break. Oh and before all the 2h start crying that they can't break them with one swing of their sword, a shield will go down in about 2-5 hits from an axe.

This is not a huge issue in my opinion. My elite cavalry shield - which isn't particularily though - rarely broke in normal fighting unless it was against axes. Against axes you will either need a quick kill or should just put your shield away and manual block.

Shields should really have more utility though. The only way I'm going back is if I get interested on some steel pick agility build enough.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Siboire on November 22, 2011, 02:03:15 pm
Yup with the amount of archers i rerolled in 1h but even with the huscarl and 5 shield skill, i got shot multiple times in the foot when was not 100% facing the archer (i could not even correctly protect my teamates behind me while getting up ladders to get to archers on rooftop) so i said fuck that and went back to 2h... They need to fix shield coverage and remove ladders from battle.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Old_Sir_Agor on November 22, 2011, 02:49:27 pm
When i see some movies about medievel wars, i see a lot of ranged and a lot og shilders, and very rarely i see some epic 2h guys or with 2h poleaxe, so i think it is normal that 2h cry a lot, it is their choise, if you want dont die from ranged be shielder, all melee just want be death machines with extremly high dmg , never glance and with big size weapons, pro- good for melee, con- easy for ranged, i think it is normal. If you nerf ranged it woud be just 2h and poleaxers and maybe cav on servers, will be no point in shielder too if all ranged respec.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Vodner on November 22, 2011, 03:31:07 pm
When i see some movies about medievel wars, i see a lot of ranged and a lot og shilders, and very rarely i see some epic 2h guys or with 2h poleaxe, so i think it is normal that 2h cry a lot, it is their choise, if you want dont die from ranged be shielder, all melee just want be death machines with extremly high dmg , never glance and with big size weapons, pro- good for melee, con- easy for ranged, i think it is normal. If you nerf ranged it woud be just 2h and poleaxers and maybe cav on servers, will be no point in shielder too if all ranged respec.
Shield vs shield combat is incredibly dull (there is a reason you see few shields in the duel server). 1h is still very useful in melee combat - the shield allows you to move slightly into enemy lines, where you can hit enemies from the side. This forces them to turn to block you, which leaves them exposed to hits from your teammates.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Laufknoten on November 22, 2011, 03:33:40 pm
Difference being here they have stupid ladders and perfect immunity from anyone besides OTHER RANGED, until the admin yells at them to get off the fucking roofs.
That's the real problem. Archery isn't OP, if you take less than 6 PD you have to choose your targets wisely and it's not even worth it to shoot at heavy armored 2h-str/if-stackers. Also you can't do shit till lvl 20 except being annoying.
The only problem is the roofcamping, which would be so easy to avoid just by removing ladders from battle...
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Elmokki on November 22, 2011, 04:19:48 pm
That's the real problem. Archery isn't OP, if you take less than 6 PD you have to choose your targets wisely and it's not even worth it to shoot at heavy armored 2h-str/if-stackers. Also you can't do shit till lvl 20 except being annoying.
The only problem is the roofcamping, which would be so easy to avoid just by removing ladders from battle...

This still doesn't solve all the problems. Steep hills and reachable but hard to reach places would still be nearly equally retarded.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Elmokki on November 22, 2011, 04:22:56 pm
When i see some movies about medievel wars, i see a lot of ranged and a lot og shilders, and very rarely i see some epic 2h guys or with 2h poleaxe, so i think it is normal that 2h cry a lot, it is their choise, if you want dont die from ranged be shielder, all melee just want be death machines with extremly high dmg , never glance and with big size weapons, pro- good for melee, con- easy for ranged, i think it is normal. If you nerf ranged it woud be just 2h and poleaxers and maybe cav on servers, will be no point in shielder too if all ranged respec.

If you want to talk about realism then there's no way current bows fit in. The amount of armor piercing with bodkins is huge even with the bows that don't have that much power. That said if you wanted total realism most of the swords in the game wouldn't hurt a tincan at all except maybe for stabs.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on November 22, 2011, 06:09:44 pm
if you want dont die from ranged be shielder

only problem is even a shield doesnt protect you from an arrow shot that goes through your shield..
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Lordark on November 22, 2011, 06:37:56 pm
arrows cant go 'thru' ur shield only crossbow bolts, and only they do sometimes if they hit ur arm.  Since they reduced the bubble affect quite a bit from before I think.. It just made the game a bit harder for shielders is all.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: BADPLAYERold on November 22, 2011, 09:39:27 pm
m0d i5 d34d
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Old_Sir_Agor on November 22, 2011, 11:34:11 pm
arrows cant go 'thru' ur shield only crossbow bolts, and only they do sometimes if they hit ur arm.  Since they reduced the bubble affect quite a bit from before I think.. It just made the game a bit harder for shielders is all.

I can shoot with xbow thru ur shield only if shielder has 5-6 or less shiled skill, i never can shoot thru steel shields or thru kingrims shield))
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Xant on November 23, 2011, 02:01:17 am
5-6 is a lot of Shield skill.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Gorath on November 23, 2011, 05:31:07 am
5-6 is a lot of Shield skill.

This.

Any more than 5-6 shield skill is some stupid gimmick build.   :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Old_Sir_Agor on November 23, 2011, 11:38:40 am
This.

Any more than 5-6 shield skill is some stupid gimmick build.   :rolleyes:

kingrim has more and he rock 8-)
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Jarlek on November 23, 2011, 02:59:05 pm
kingrim has more and he rock 8-)
kingrim is special.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Corwin on November 23, 2011, 03:10:21 pm
I will use this opportunity to once again remind that we did have already poll regarding this.
Despite the fact that around half of players think that some cut damage should return, and that it is obvious that some changes are necessary, the only reply we received was from Urist, and that can be summarized - no, we wont do it.

http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,16652.60.html

Forgot to mention another indicator of overpowered weapons, and that is the marketplace. If you want to see what is considered to be powerful in player base - check the prices on market. Compare the prices of bows and arrows with other weapons.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: San on November 23, 2011, 03:29:57 pm
If you didn't have to move your entire shield just to look around, getting hit past your shield would be a little more bearable. ~ isn't as effective because I try to look for cavalry flanks and won't be able to turn fast enough once I see them.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Dezilagel on November 23, 2011, 03:35:43 pm
If you didn't have to move your entire shield just to look around, getting hit past your shield would be a little more bearable. ~ isn't as effective because I try to look for cavalry flanks and won't be able to turn fast enough once I see them.

There is a "freelook-key" you know?
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Kophka on November 23, 2011, 05:17:43 pm
I will use this opportunity to once again remind that we did have already poll regarding this.
Despite the fact that around half of players think that some cut damage should return, and that it is obvious that some changes are necessary, the only reply we received was from Urist, and that can be summarized - no, we wont do it.

http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,16652.60.html



I can't believe how many people completely ignored Tennenoth's post in that one. That a was an extremely well thought out and worded argument. It should carry a huge amount of weight, because Tenne has been a dedicated archer since he started playing, and was/is one of the best in EU, as well.

I quote :

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: San on November 23, 2011, 07:12:29 pm
There is a "freelook-key" you know?

Is that a key other than the one specifically mentioned in my post?
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Dezilagel on November 23, 2011, 07:14:21 pm
Is that a key other than the one specifically mentioned in my post?

Ninja'd

Anyways, just run sideways to look around, that's what I do.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on November 23, 2011, 10:10:13 pm
i need to rage somewhere. an archer took off 75% of my hp with a shot to my lower body in my loomed plate and mail

aaaaaaarg

3 times arrows and bow, 10 pd?

QQ

Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Arrowblood on November 23, 2011, 10:54:18 pm
i need to rage somewhere. an archer took off 75% of my hp with a shot to my lower body in my loomed plate and mail

aaaaaaarg

3 times arrows and bow, 10 pd?

QQ
                           that was sebastian and hes lvl 33 i think     dont cry about 1 archer who deals damage like this.  hes not that accurate and definatly DONT needs a damn nerf.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: BranStark on November 23, 2011, 11:07:50 pm
Yeah the only thing that pisses me off about archers is the roof camping.

Last time I played, every round came down to the 15 idiots on the unreachable roof, and the rest of us on the ground running around like chickens without heads, trying to avoid the rain of badly aimed arrows.

So much fun!  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on November 23, 2011, 11:38:51 pm
problem is, it happends more often then rarely
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: _Sebastian_ on November 24, 2011, 12:45:23 am
i need to rage somewhere. an archer took off 75% of my hp with a shot to my lower body in my loomed plate and mail

aaaaaaarg

3 times arrows and bow, 10 pd?

QQ

Yeah...
It sounds like me.

Its true that I can kill all heavy tincans with only 2 shots in the body, because of the 102 pierce damage.
But its a long way to make a 10PD + mw longbow + mw bodkins build playable.

Im lvl33 and I reached gen.16 and 65mil xp, so I need 15mil xp to lvl34 and then I will get 160wpf in archery.
And...
160wpf isn't that accurate, because PD over 5 decreases the bow accuracy.

I think I'm the only archer in the whole cRPG who deals such an "OP" damage,
so I hope you can deal with it. :wink:
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Lactose_the_intolerant on November 24, 2011, 08:59:08 am
if you ?lay under your wolves sebastian nick well it isnt you  8-)
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Xant on November 24, 2011, 11:53:29 am
cRPG god is punishing you for armor crutching.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Rumblood on November 24, 2011, 04:04:20 pm
This still doesn't solve all the problems. Steep hills and reachable but hard to reach places would still be nearly equally retarded.

Hello? Archers cant run on steep hills. I thought the complaint was that they could run away from you STRENGTH crutchers. "Whaa! I went all strength and no athletics and it isn't fair that guy with 8 athletics can outrun me! I want my one hit kill!"

Buncha whiners.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Tears of Destiny on November 24, 2011, 07:30:53 pm
People need to learn that some builds will have a harder time against others...

No sympathy since Matey and others make extremely deadly anti-archer builds. Naturally if your build is great against one thing, it will have a much harder time against others. This is not single player, there are no rambos.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Gorath on November 24, 2011, 07:35:34 pm
there are no rambos.

Which is gay.  Teamwork is fun when it's a choice, not a necessity.

Hello? Archers cant run on steep hills. I thought the complaint was that they could run away from you STRENGTH crutchers. "Whaa! I went all strength and no athletics and it isn't fair that guy with 8 athletics can outrun me! I want my one hit kill!"

Buncha whiners.

I've never been a STR crutcher (except on an alt to troll with a lollermaul) and I still have issue with this.  Archers should not have fucking 8 athletics.  They shouldn't be able to run faster than a balanced build melee.  Why?  Because kiting is lame shit.  Sure, that's not a fair answer, it's not a logical answer, but it's an honest answer.  Melee shouldn't have to make a goddamned useless agi/athletics gimmick build JUST for running down archers while being shit everywhere else.

Everything about the damned ranged playstyle is fucking lame.  Kiting:  Lame.  Roofcamping:  Fucking lame.  Shooting melee guys that can't attack back:  Lame.

That said I'm just a biased bastard that hates ranged, so whatever.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Jarlek on November 24, 2011, 08:11:23 pm
I see WHY archers would want to Kite, and I see why we shouldn't make them unable to do so. If they decide to go light armour and 8 athl, they SHOULD be allowed to run away. Archer's shouldn't be forced into melee.
What I find ridiculous, though, is that they can run away with NO sacrifices! What I suggest is that we do the same with Bows as they did with Shields. Make them heavy as fuck. You want to run away to get help from allies? Fine, but you can't take the bow with you. Or if you do, it's a risk that the enemy can catch up with you. This would also makes shielders able to neutralize archers, instead of just chasing them forever. They can run towards them, archer have to drop his bow but can then kite away. Shielder can then follow and hope the archer gets intercepted, camp the bow so the archer can't get it back, or go fight someone else.

What do you think about this? All the "we don't want to fight in melee because we don't have melee builds" and "we are running to get help from allies" still can be done with this. The only thing that would change is the "lol, I am gonna run away like a bitch, making them unable to kill me, but me still able to kill them, in a very annoying, slow and delaying way!"
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Tears of Destiny on November 24, 2011, 08:22:23 pm
The reason why archers run fast is actually because we don't wear armour because you won't let us. Even with 5 athletics I was able to outrun most people due to that.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Jarlek on November 24, 2011, 08:28:11 pm
The reason why archers run fast is actually because we don't wear armour because you won't let us. Even with 5 athletics I was able to outrun most people due to that.
True. But guessing from how much speed shielders lost from the icnreased shield weight, I guess icnreasing the bow weight could help. Then again, doesn't sheathing your weapon negate most of the weight or was it all of it? If that is true, then archers could still run with a sheathed bow. That would actually be balanced in my eyes. You can run fast with the bow sheathed, or attack but having to stand still/move slowly? What do you think?
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Rumblood on November 25, 2011, 02:18:24 am
Guess what? You nerf my 8 athletics, I'm just going to go reverse on you and go 8 PD AND 8 PS and start 1 shotting you instead of being able to run away and take 4-6 shots. Oh, and when you get close, that 8 PS will 1 shot you too, rather than the 4-5 PS I'm using now and taking 4-6 hits to kill you.

You hate ranged. We get it. Until cavalry is removed from the game however, I will continue using it.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: BADPLAYERold on November 25, 2011, 02:42:45 am
Guess what? You nerf my 8 athletics, I'm just going to go reverse on you and go 8 PD AND 8 PS and start 1 shotting you instead of being able to run away and take 4-6 shots. Oh, and when you get close, that 8 PS will 1 shot you too, rather than the 4-5 PS I'm using now and taking 4-6 hits to kill you.

You hate ranged. We get it. Until cavalry is removed from the game however, I will continue using it.

Cavalry is supposed to be the counter to ranged, I find it funny how it's the other way around (Unless you use an incredibly expensive armoured horse, but even then any organized group of ranged can destroy you or they can just camp somewhere you can't get to and kill you that way)

Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Gorath on November 25, 2011, 03:08:44 am
Guess what? You nerf my 8 athletics, I'm just going to go reverse on you and go 8 PD AND 8 PS and start 1 shotting you instead of being able to run away and take 4-6 shots. Oh, and when you get close, that 8 PS will 1 shot you too, rather than the 4-5 PS I'm using now and taking 4-6 hits to kill you.

You hate ranged. We get it. Until cavalry is removed from the game however, I will continue using it.

Why do you feel the need to be as much of a my old friend as possible?
What about the game screams "MUST BE LAME AND GAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" in your eyes?  Hmmmmm?
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


Cavalry is supposed to be the counter to ranged, I find it funny how it's the other way around (Unless you use an incredibly expensive armoured horse, but even then any organized group of ranged can destroy you or they can just camp somewhere you can't get to and kill you that way)

^
This too.  What exactly IS the counter to ranged?  Oh yeah, other ranged.  THAT is truly retarded.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Tears of Destiny on November 25, 2011, 03:21:09 am
I'm still waiting for the whiners to leave... They never do...
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Gorath on November 25, 2011, 04:03:48 am
I'm still waiting for the whiners to leave... They never do...

Still waiting for the rangedbundle of stickss to leave... They never do...
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Tears of Destiny on November 25, 2011, 04:06:10 am
What's funny is that I have a bow and the game is designed for it, yet you and others keep dreaming of what never was and never will be.

Pew Pew Pew.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Gorath on November 25, 2011, 04:09:14 am
What's funny is that I have a bow and the game is designed for it, yet you and others keep dreaming of what never was and never will be.

Pew Pew Pew.

What's funny is that the devs took what was the only part of the game that is unique and groundbreaking in a sea of FPS's, melee combat, and then ruined it by making ranged combat so fucking viable.  Then the mod took that disease, and added ladders.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Tears of Destiny on November 25, 2011, 04:10:54 am
Have you bothered playing native? People die in droves from the crossbow and archer spam there. cRPG gives melee much more of a fighting chance.

For someone who is so terribly jaded about this mod, you sure do hang around these boards a lot. Go find another mod or game.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Gorath on November 25, 2011, 04:14:49 am
Have you bothered playing native? People die in droves from the crossbow and archer spam there. cRPG gives melee much more of a fighting chance.

For someone who is so terribly jaded about this mod, you sure do hang around these boards a lot. Go find another mod or game.

This is by far the most obvious place on the internet to trololo and talk shit.  Other than SA, where else are you going to find such a collective community of fuckwads?
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Christo on November 25, 2011, 04:29:10 am
Other than SA, where else are you going to find such a collective community of fuckwads?

Any imageboard.

lololololol
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: duurrr on November 25, 2011, 04:35:16 am
as much as i hate crpg's archer i tried native recently...

seriously why the fuck does anyone play native? its just 10 archers and 1 shielder vs 10 crossbowmens and 1 shielder. crpg is heading towards this slowly tho but on a bigger scale, idk, are you guys making armor crutching unbalanced as shit and then trying to balance it off by buffing range? =/
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Kophka on November 25, 2011, 05:34:47 am
Personally, I love having archers on my team. Archers definitely should have a place on a medieval battlefield, which is what Mount and Blade is trying to recreate. Kicking ranged out of the game would take this from a medieval fantasy battlefield recreator to a ballet game with swords. Shields would be the next thing to die, then we'd have everyone twirling polearms and 2 hander light-sabers while they danced around like crazy.


However, I don't like that every bow can have pierce, from the fastest firing bow to the hardest hitting bow. I thought it was pretty well balanced that a lot of the archers had cut bows, and had to choose their targets based on what they were effective against. The people that chose bows with a good chance against armor had to take longer draw time and slower firing as a penalty for it.

What exactly was wrong with that system, that it had to be changed? What will it take to bring it back?
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Zanze on November 25, 2011, 07:22:44 am
You want to counter range? Pick up some throwing weapons.

Chestacleese(sp?) in specific hates my guts in battle and I really can't do anything about it. He is just as accurate, if not more accurate than I am. He also can probably throw two war darts for every arrow I shoot from my horn bow. The only thing I have on him is the ability to shoot from further.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: BADPLAYERold on November 25, 2011, 07:31:42 am
You want to counter range? Pick up some throwing weapons.

Chestacleese(sp?) in specific hates my guts in battle and I really can't do anything about it. He is just as accurate, if not more accurate than I am. He also can probably throw two war darts for every arrow I shoot from my horn bow. The only thing I have on him is the ability to shoot from further.

AKA - Want to counter ranged? BE RANGED!
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Duke on November 25, 2011, 07:44:56 am
You want to counter range? Pick up some throwing weapons.

Chestacleese(sp?) in specific hates my guts in battle and I really can't do anything about it. He is just as accurate, if not more accurate than I am. He also can probably throw two war darts for every arrow I shoot from my horn bow. The only thing I have on him is the ability to shoot from further.
AKA - Want to counter ranged? BE RANGED!

I wouldn't classify Throwers as 100% range, they're usually an Infantry/Ranged hybrid.
100% Thrower builds are not necessary to counter archers, especially when they wear light armor.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Dezilagel on November 25, 2011, 07:57:59 am
AKA - Want to counter ranged? BE RANGED!


I wouldn't classify Throwers as 100% range, they're usually an Infantry/Ranged hybrid.
100% Thrower builds are not necessary to counter archers, especially when they wear light armor.

Throwers throw stuff,

therefore rangedmy old friends.

Sure you can be more or less my old friendgy (runners...), but it still stands that the most effective way of dealing with archers is to bring a ranged weapon yourself.

(Ranged to counter ranged,

therefore At fifteen, I had the will to  learn ; at thirty, I could stand ; at forty, I had no  doubts ; at fifty, I understood the heavenly Bidding ;  at sixty, my ears were opened ; at seventy, I could  do as my heart lusted without trespassing from the  square..)
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Kay of Sauvage on November 25, 2011, 09:57:22 am
Despite Sir_Agor and Tears' terrible arguments, ranged still is way too powerful and it's making the game all about how to figure out a way to not get slaughtered by archers. The main strategy involves hoping the auto-balance gives you more archers than the other team. Not fun.

I've offered a few very conservative suggestions on how to try to reel in archers to being balanced again without even touching their shot power.

1) Change the map rotation. It's full of villages on mountains, and mountains overlooking villages, and natural archer nests on the roofs of mountain villages. Notice a theme? Besides being boring, all these maps make everyone move in slow motion, which is very convenient for someone shooting arrows from their elevated perch. Even Battlefield 3 isn't as convenient for snipers as M&B is for archers... So add some tight city maps that offer no safe perches to sit in and snipe from, and makes it difficult to fire into flanks. Add some flat or rolling plains, without any perches that defeat the purpose. Obstacles, buildings, fences, and other things are fine. Just keep it on the ground. Archers will still be OP on other maps, but maybe it'll make some people think twice about their choice of builds.

2) Don't allow archers to draw the bow while moving. Require that they stand still to do the whole draw and shoot motion. (And you guys who like to bring up realism, when do you ever see archers running and drawing a bow at the same time? Even Legolas stands in place to draw and shoot.) Nothing good comes from allowing this movement. It gives kiting archers more opportunity to shoot at the infantry that chase them. It makes them able to strafe-dodge cavalry that attack them while still spamming shots off point blank into the horse (cavalry should at least be able to force a single archer into putting away his bow to fight). The idea here is to at least discourage archers from playing Rambo, going wherever they want, on the flanks without support, since they may now be harassed more effectively by cav and chasing infantry.

Plus this would finally give xbows something that bows wouldn't have, the ability to move and shoot.

3) Remove ladders. Nothing good comes from ladders. It just adds a perch to every map that doesn't already have a perch, except this one has the added benefit that it will be totally unreachable when the ladder is destroyed.


4)I think the idea to add weight to the bows is a good idea also. Yes, Rumblood, I would much rather see you add more power to your shots than to be able to run fast. I play with 7 athletics myself and can rarely keep up with any archer. If it's 2 archers, forget it, I'm dead already.

It's much more important to make archers counter-able than it is to make them less deadly. At least if they can be successfully caught (when they don't bother to stick with allies for protection), they will be forced to change tactics and be more bearable.  If a shielder sees an archer off to the side alone, it should really mean that the archer will be caught unless he drops his archery equipment. As it is now, a shielder sees an archer off to the side and says, "dammit, I wish I could do something about that."




Also, someone mentioned that archers need to be a support class in order to be balanced. I think that's true. There's no reason that every class should be represented equally on the scoreboard. Archery is a middle-of-the-road class. The worst archer will be better than the worst infantry because they can just fire from a distance, often into a defenseless target, without the same risk . Likewise, the best archer shouldn't be better than the best infantry, because the archer has a limited rate of fire, limited accuracy (though I wonder about that...), limited damage output, while the infantry should be able to cleave through groups of enemies faster and with more power. Plus the weaker arrow hit should often help stun a target enough to allow an ally's strong melee attack to kill them.

Proper balance should be about what classes cause the game to be won or lost because of lack of a reasonable counter. Right now, archers are deciding the game.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Vibe on November 25, 2011, 09:59:17 am
3) Remove ladders.

Yes to this, but...

2) Don't allow archers to draw the bow while moving.

... one big lol to this.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Kay of Sauvage on November 25, 2011, 10:16:23 am
... one big lol to this.

Why?

Certainly they don't need to be shooting while kiting. Nor do they need to be pelting a horse at point blank range as they sidestep. They should be using the support of allies to allow them them to stand somewhere safely if they want to be able to shoot constantly. No Rambos.

It'd be an interesting change in terms of how archers deal with each other, since they can't just keep dancing side to side while drawing the bow. We might actually see an archer run for cover instead of just dancing in place, heaven forbid.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Vibe on November 25, 2011, 10:50:28 am
Why?

Certainly they don't need to be shooting while kiting. Nor do they need to be pelting a horse at point blank range as they sidestep. They should be using the support of allies to allow them them to stand somewhere safely if they want to be able to shoot constantly. No Rambos.

It'd be an interesting change in terms of how archers deal with each other, since they can't just keep dancing side to side while drawing the bow. We might actually see an archer run for cover instead of just dancing in place, heaven forbid.

Because it's already implemented lol?
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: rustyspoon on November 25, 2011, 01:50:38 pm
Please just give back shields their ranged forcefield. At the very least we'd be able to cover ourselves and our teammates again. It's not like we'd be able to catch the fucking archers anyway.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Arrowblood on November 25, 2011, 04:26:04 pm
Fact is, you all will cry about archers in 1 year too     cos you cant deal with our unfair world,    u just dont accept that you get killed from range. Everyone who wears something with a CHAI
N MAIL and cries about op BODKINS+LONGBOW  is a noob in my opinion. I agree with the roofmonkeycampingdelayingshit. 
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Dezilagel on November 25, 2011, 04:46:03 pm
Fact is, you all will cry about archers in 1 year too     cos you cant deal with our unfair world,    u just dont accept that you get killed from range. Everyone who wears something with a MAIL and cries about op BODKINS+LONGBOW  is a noob in my opinion. I agree with the roofmonkeycampingdelayingshit.

mail very very bad !!

injustice ! !

 I love Mail but

 a very difficult game, mail  and hit hard


Seriously, wth are you trying to say?

(click to show/hide)

Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Arrowblood on November 25, 2011, 05:05:58 pm
mail very very bad !!

injustice ! !

 I love Mail but

 a very difficult game, mail  and hit hard


Seriously, wth are you trying to say?

(click to show/hide)
Fixed, im sorry im just a old man from chocolate chip cookieland who says KETTENHEMD
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Dezilagel on November 25, 2011, 05:26:14 pm
Fixed, im sorry im just a old man from chocolate chip cookieland who says KETTENHEMD

So you're saying that all people who use chainmail and complain are noobs, but those who use plate or clothes, their input is valid?

What's your reasoning behind that?
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Kay of Sauvage on November 25, 2011, 06:32:45 pm
Because it's already implemented lol?

Uh, no it's not. Archers still move while drawing the bow, they just stop at the end of it to settle the aim for the shot.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Arrowblood on November 25, 2011, 06:44:26 pm
what do you think is a bodkin arrowhead developed for?
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Xant on November 25, 2011, 06:51:07 pm
what do you think is a bodkin arrowhead developed for?

it was developed for being overpowered or so i hear
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Arrowblood on November 25, 2011, 07:00:04 pm
ye thats it :D
for people in lowarmor and CHAINMAILS.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Lech on November 25, 2011, 08:46:26 pm
There is no chainmail, it's mail. And archery need to be nerfed, in damage and by decreasing weight or length of ranged weapons to make them run slower with them. I can totally see runaway archer in cloth to run for his life without bow and arrows, but doing it and shooting at the same time is stupid. Ma

Kiting need to go, it's not like archers can't cooperate and using teamwork to runaway from athletic 9 ninjas when there is two archers with 0 athletic each. They can. I don't see why they should do it alone, rambo-style.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: duurrr on November 25, 2011, 11:31:37 pm
Because derp, its, derp, already derpimplemented?
fixed

Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Arrowblood on November 25, 2011, 11:49:28 pm
There is no chainmail, it's mail. And archery need to be nerfed, in damage and by decreasing weight or length of ranged weapons to make them run slower with them. I can totally see runaway archer in cloth to run for his life without bow and arrows, but doing it and shooting at the same time is stupid. Ma

Kiting need to go, it's not like archers can't cooperate and using teamwork to runaway from athletic 9 ninjas when there is two archers with 0 athletic each. They can. I don't see why they should do it alone, rambo-style.
everyone in crpg wants to be a rambo, and archery needs only longbowpierce
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Elmokki on November 26, 2011, 12:18:22 am
I can accept dying from ranged. I strongly do advocate making ranged a serious threat to especially non-shielders which it currently is.

What I do not advocate is making ranged - mind you, throwers and crossbowmen are pretty much fine right now - Legolas like archers who can avoid enemies and shoot while doing that (kiting).

The mail armors (50ish body armor) seriously don't help against archers at all. You can't catch them -> they'll eventually have shot you enough to kill you, and that eventually isn't THAT long. Heavier armor is better if you are ignoring archers and fighting other people, but for catching archers it's generally more likely you have any chance of doing it if you're fast and lightly armored.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Rumblood on November 26, 2011, 12:28:36 am
Uh, no it's not. Archers still move while drawing the bow, they just stop at the end of it to settle the aim for the shot.

Lies, it doesn't ever settle back to the point where it would if you didnt draw at all. You lose at least 25 wpf in accuracy by moving around, even after you stop.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: PieParadox on November 26, 2011, 12:32:57 am
I haven't read much of the posts but, how is hybriding not OP?

With my archer alt, I have at level 30:
5 IF
6 PS
6 PD
6 ATH
6 WM

140 wpf in archery (quite accurate if you play a mid range game)
85 wpf in 1h (proficient melee wpf)

My 2h alt is basically on par with my archer in melee except higher wpf or maybe 1 more ath/PS... But with 1h weapons, so many high speed weapons to choose from. Anyone else think this? Can't even imagine how awesome this kind of character would be with masterworks.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Jarlek on November 26, 2011, 12:37:25 am
I haven't read much of the posts but, how is hybriding not OP?

With my archer alt, I have at level 30:
5 IF
6 PS
6 PD
6 ATH
6 WM

140 wpf in archery (quite accurate if you play a mid range game)
85 wpf in 1h (proficient melee wpf)

My 2h alt is basically on par with my archer in melee except higher wpf or maybe 1 more ath/PS... But with 1h weapons, so many high speed weapons to choose from. Anyone else thinka this?
And still they whine that they can't fight in melee....

Because all of them (that whines) goes something like THIS build instead:
(click to show/hide)
Boohooo, I can't fight in melee! It's unfair! I can only kill plate in 3 arrows! Boohooo! Those people DISGUST me >:/
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Leshma on November 26, 2011, 12:59:27 am
To be honest, melee archer hybrid isn't OP. If it was good (OP) I would play it. Imagine 6 PS, 6 PD, 8 ATH, 8 WM, 160 Archery, 120 2H WPP archer using horn bow, 2 stacks of bodkins and longsword. Loomed everything and +14 on body with light armour. I would totally play such build.

Paul, please make it possible and while you're at it raise weight limit for wpf reduction to 10 weight. I want fancy helmet with +7 head armour and decent boots to go with my ~50 body armour triple loomed amour.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Kay of Sauvage on November 26, 2011, 02:44:28 am
Lies, it doesn't ever settle back to the point where it would if you didnt draw at all. You lose at least 25 wpf in accuracy by moving around, even after you stop.

Ah, so you don't move around as you draw the bow in between shots? I must be seeing things.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Nagasoup on November 26, 2011, 03:16:14 am
Make it so drawing a bow takes much longer if you move while doing it, or make running MUCH slower when drawing a bow, but not completely disable drawing while moving, cuz that would be overnerfing. As of now there is no real penalty for drawing while moving, so that you see archers doing that even when theyre not being shot at, there should be some major penalty for moving during a draw.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Vodner on November 26, 2011, 09:55:19 am
I haven't read much of the posts but, how is hybriding not OP?

With my archer alt, I have at level 30:
5 IF
6 PS
6 PD
6 ATH
6 WM

140 wpf in archery (quite accurate if you play a mid range game)
85 wpf in 1h (proficient melee wpf)

My 2h alt is basically on par with my archer in melee except higher wpf or maybe 1 more ath/PS... But with 1h weapons, so many high speed weapons to choose from. Anyone else think this? Can't even imagine how awesome this kind of character would be with masterworks.
The problem with hybrids is that they are largely useless in strat (you don't want your archers dying in a place where they might lose their bow). They are fantastic in battle though.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Arrowblood on November 26, 2011, 12:13:04 pm
Archerhybrids are totally a waste of time , trust me everything under 160 wpf is shit if u use long or rusbow.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Kafein on November 26, 2011, 01:03:54 pm
Anyway as a ranged class, you only need athletics, a few points in PS and a mace to stand a chance at melee. And by standing a chance, I mean a real one. You don't need wpf at all with the mace. And your lightweight setup + athletics gives you blazing speed and acceleration, largely compensating for the mace shortness.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Cup1d on November 26, 2011, 01:37:45 pm
Quote
And your lightweight setup + athletics gives you blazing speed and acceleration

do not forget - this works with any kind of build. For example - Shock trooper (15-24) with Bec or morningstar.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: B3RS3RK on November 26, 2011, 01:42:03 pm
do not forget - this works with any kind of build. For example - Shock trooper (15-24) with Bec or morningstar.

i do that alot with 18/21

Always good for some positive stats :D
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Overdriven on November 26, 2011, 01:45:50 pm
Ah, so you don't move around as you draw the bow in between shots? I must be seeing things.

Moving around and shooting with the bow only works at point blank range. Otherwise as soon as you move with your bow drawn the crosshairs widen, even if you stop they keep just getting wider.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Jarlek on November 26, 2011, 01:49:14 pm
Moving around and shooting with the bow only works at point blank range. Otherwise as soon as you move with your bow drawn the crosshairs widen, even if you stop they keep just getting wider.
Sigh. How come you guys don't know how archery works? Come on! You move while you draw, then stop right before you would normally be able to shoot. Success! You just moved while drawing and shot at 100% normal accuracy!
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Tzar on November 26, 2011, 07:31:39 pm
Sigh. How come you guys don't know how archery works? Come on! You move while you draw, then stop right before you would normally be able to shoot. Success! You just moved while drawing and shot at 100% normal accuracy!

They are GK´s what did you expect?
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Tears of Destiny on November 26, 2011, 07:40:03 pm
They are GK´s what did you expect?

It's funny because Tzar has no idea how cavalry works.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Dezilagel on November 26, 2011, 07:54:30 pm
It's funny because Tzar has no idea how cavalry works.

derp Tears

"It's funny because you have no idea how Tzar works"
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Jarlek on November 26, 2011, 09:36:28 pm
derp Tears

"It's funny because you have no idea how Tzar works"
Well, Tzar has no idea how ANYTHING works, so I gotta agree with ToD here...
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Tzar on November 27, 2011, 05:29:57 pm
Well, Tzar has no idea how ANYTHING works, so I gotta agree with ToD here...

Its funny because all i see around the forums is a bunch of biased sobs crying for nerfs of the opposite classes an claiming to being experts at the game 24/7 like yourself.

Dunno why i still borther posting in this section lol i must enjoy watching lobbyism at its finest

Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Tears of Destiny on November 27, 2011, 05:34:45 pm
Its funny because all i see around the forums is a bunch of biased sobs crying for nerfs of the opposite classes an claiming to being experts at the game 24/7 like yourself.

Then stop surrounding yourself with mirrors. Problem solved.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Taggerung on November 30, 2011, 08:31:14 am
Archery is "pewpew madness"??

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Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Leshma on November 30, 2011, 01:38:54 pm
It's funny because Tzar has no idea how cavalry works.

I know how both archery and cavalry works.

Cavalry: always attack from behind, never attack aware enemy, rarely attack other cav because they might kill you, hunt crappy 2H and shielders and busy archers.
Archery: always run from your enemy, always attack 2H because they are easy targets, don't bother to shoot at cav or their horses because they are too fast and because your aim is crap, don't shoot or provoke other archers because they might kill you, stand on a roof or in a corner, or in water, or glitch somewhere, if you have fabulously crappy aim just keep shooting, next released arrow might be the lucky (head) shot.

So basically, most cav and archers don't attack each other and don't play their roles properly.
Title: Re: Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.
Post by: Okkam on November 30, 2011, 03:13:20 pm
I know all about 2H Michael

First - buy kuyak, nordic warlord helm and Danish greatsword. At battle make straight run to enemy lines aboosing all with «Chaaarge» yelling or try to wound your teammates with stupid feinting training. Kill one or two teammates with your mighty left-right swings, but never say sorry - because heroes do not say sorry at all. Then die by horse trampling (try to find horse WITHOUT horseman) and go here, at forums and...
Whine!!!11

Whine about shielders, polearmers, archers, throwers, cavalry and xbowers...
Remember - you cant be real 2H god without tons of whine posts. More infantile posts > more people will like you, and think that you are real 2H pro.