Plz Stop this pewpew madness without overnerfing it.

[Tears of Destiny]

So how do you propose making an incentive for me to ditch PD, ATHL and WM for the PS I need?

Not going to happen.

[Gisbert_of_Thuringia]

I was thinking more in decreasing the effectiveness of pure archers or something. Like the benefits are almost laughable so it'd be much better to take some melee. Like now, people are min maxing and taking nothing but PD and WM, then whining that horsemen/footmen can easily kill them in melee. One suggestion I came with was reducing wpfs affect on ranged. Bow wpf doesn't change accuracy, only speed. Xbow wpf doesn't change speed, only accuracy (or vice versa). Throwing only affects throwing speed.
They would still need the wpf per PD, so no just stacking PD AND make it so low wpf is VERY slow and high wpf cost too much for too little gain, so to make a sweetspot of good speed for wpp investmenet, making any extra much better spent on melee.

NOnono!

Please don't change anything about the way wpf work on accuracy, damage or whatever.
There are certain reason why some archer (I for example) went for 8wm, while others sticked to 6 or 7. They can have athletics, powerstrike or whatever, whereas I can have max damage and accuracy.
Please do not suggest any changes on that^^


What Siboire suggested is actually perfect: Make bows define damagetype again and make longbow only bow with piercedamage. Devs are so often not caring about realism in this game, so why about the bow/arrow stuff?

Seriously, just accept the fact that you are all inferior people who don't know what you want (since you keep changing your minds) and give me all of your looms.

You share?^^

[Jarlek]

So how do you propose making an incentive for me to ditch PD, ATHL and WM for the PS I need?

Not going to happen.

Good point. That's kinda what I've been thinking about. I don't want to nerf archers efficiency, just change it so going full archery-no-melee isn't as overall effective as archer-with-some-melee. Kinda like it was. Very few archers JUST had a bow and arrows, most had melee weapons and some melee training (except peasant "oh fuck enemies at the wall arm everyone we can find!" archers )

The real problem is to actually find a good reason for archers to give up PD and WM for others. The change I suggested would at least make those archers who go PD/WM only to use some of the wpf in melee (good) over only Bow wpf since it would help them the most. Pretty sure the same would apply for the only PD, ATHL and WM guys.

But as you mentioned, there really is no good reason they should take PS, at least not on paper. The main problem here is that 4, or even 5 PS, or lower is considered a "low" amount. 6 PS is the "normal" ammount of PS for most people, while spending just 4 points in PS might be a bit much for archers. I guess this would be fixed if they balanced out the massive advantage high STR and PS/IF gives you, would also make it easier for archers in melee.

Personally I run around with this on my archer alt:

(click to show/hide)

Strength   21   
Agility   18   

Weapon proficiency
One Handed   54   
Archery                 149

Skills
Power Strike   4      
Athletics   6
Power Draw   7
Weapon Master   6

and it is pretty much the lowest you can go to be able to have a standing chance in melee (as an average melee fighter against someone not vastly outskilling you). I still die annoying "that bitch only won because of his better weapon and stats", but that's really ok considering I got a bow to shoot with too.

But if you got any nice suggestions as to how give archers a better incentive to not go pure archery and take some melee too it would really help. No need for us to rage like the other 98% of this forum and actually find a good solution. I really hope more archers would like to have some melee ability without having to "sacrifice" all of their melee.

Personally I'm not a fan of PS, PD and PT because they are such gamebreakers (only reason they don't break the game is because everyone who uses a weapon that gets boosts from them got loads of skills in them).

[Slamz]

I think archers are reasonably balanced right now.  Once in a while, you can actually see one at the top of the kill charts.  Prior to this latest change, I don't think I have ever seen an archer on top -- or even in the top 5 on a reasonably populated server.  The top killers are always cav or 2-handers, which are incidentally the two things the archer can counter the best.

Archers are fairly well balanced by the fact that they can't wear heavy armor (which hurts their accuracy) and that high Power Draw also lowers accuracy, forcing them to choose between accurate-but-weak or deadly-but-inaccurate.  And it's not really feasible for an archer to carry a shield, so you end up with a lot of really low armored people with 1-handers, most of which aren't any good at parrying.

Invest in a little throwing and you can kill them with throwing daggers because their armor always sucks.  Cav should generally avoid the good archers unless they are fleeing from infantry.  (Bad archers will get tunnel vision and you can run them down while they shoot.  Good archers will look around whenever they hear hooves and will shoot your horse in the face.)

[Jarlek]

I think archers are reasonably balanced right now.  Once in a while, you can actually see one at the top of the kill charts.  Prior to this latest change, I don't think I have ever seen an archer on top -- or even in the top 5 on a reasonably populated server.  The top killers are always cav or 2-handers, which are incidentally the two things the archer can counter the best.

Archers are fairly well balanced by the fact that they can't wear heavy armor (which hurts their accuracy) and that high Power Draw also lowers accuracy, forcing them to choose between accurate-but-weak or deadly-but-inaccurate.  And it's not really feasible for an archer to carry a shield, so you end up with a lot of really low armored people with 1-handers, most of which aren't any good at parrying.

Invest in a little throwing and you can kill them with throwing daggers because their armor always sucks.  Cav should generally avoid the good archers unless they are fleeing from infantry.  (Bad archers will get tunnel vision and you can run them down while they shoot.  Good archers will look around whenever they hear hooves and will shoot your horse in the face.)

Cav is the best for public games, worst for strat.
Archers are the worst for public games, best for strat.

That's the balance I see and I don't like it. I play this game for strat, not pub battles. But hey, shit like this is really important to discuss, yeah?

But really, all the times they nerfed archers they basically made it so they had to invest MORE skillpoints and wpf to be just as OP as they were during the "days of the hybrids" (when a part of your wpf was kept over after retiring and the average wpf was 200 or something), but losing their melee part. And it really is better to roll a full complete archer with no melee than a archer with minimum melee skills. That is the fault. Does anyone disagree with this? If so, please tell why.

I don't want archers to be fully hybrids good at both ranged and melee. I want them to be good at ranged with some panick/backup/oh-shit-he-got-close-to-me melee capability.

[Bulzur]

I don't want archers to be fully hybrids good at both ranged and melee. I want them to be good at ranged with some panick/backup/oh-shit-he-got-close-to-me melee capability.

So i can't even spam the archer once i finally reach one ? I'll need to fight fair and square, and... block ? This is it... this is madness... i'm doing this xbow hybrid.


Was a fine hornbow user prepatch, with some good headshot's kill, else doing crappy damage. Now, every "noob" can be deadly with an hornbow and bodkin arrows... there's no more of the "aim to the head" necessity, since your body shots still do a lot of damage. Overall, it "forced" most archers to take more than 5 PD, and just do bodyshots, with a... rusbow for example ? Imo, lack of skill desired to play archery now. Wich is a shame. Or maybe i only liked it when it was nerfed and i was one of the few hornbow footarchers, still having a decent k/d ratio...

[Argos]

Nerf bow damage, buff arrow damage for all cut arrows (and keep the arrow determines dam-type), it's that damn simple.

We agree, at least I hope so, that bodkin arrows shouldn't be the standard and the obvious choice. For it to make sense, there should be a point where the best cut arrow loses the ability to deliver as much damage as the bodkin, and that should happen when it comes to the plate-ish armors, though accounting for gloves. To achieve this I would move some numbers from the bows to the cut arrows and leave the bodkin as it is. Against a poorly armored target the bodkin should take more arrows to kill than it does now, to give an incentive to use those cut-arrows. Reducing the efficiency of bodkins of course means lowering the price as well.
This would also give an incentive to use high-damage bows, who perhaps don't need lower damage with this change. You would again have to choose between high damage and penetration, forcing those who want penetration and good damage to choose the bows with 2slots and highest difficulty.

Think of this as hollow point bullets that tears flesh and gives the most stopping power, compared with AP rounds that go through bulletproof vests but ultimately cause less trauma due to the narrow wound.

[Rogue_Eagle]

but if you make all the bows cut dmg except long then you're making those bows redundant again!

Arrows being CUT not pierce makes no sense anyway, unless every arrow was grazing the person >>

[Zekerage]

The only change that should happen is changing it back so that the Bow defines the damage type. When it comes down to it, You're an Archer. Shoot your bow. Let the 2h, shielders, and polearms worry about the melee. If you want to be a Hybrid, then you have to make concessions. If you want melee capability, then you have to suffer in your range capabilities. You don't think that's fair? Go roll a Crossbower. That's what Crossbow is for.

[Fips]

18/18 (5IF, 6PS, 6PD, 6WM, 6ATH, 150wpf archery, 50wpf 2h) is the way to go for an hybrid-archer. I really don't know why Hybrid-Archers should be buffed.

I am doing pretty good in archery (Although it gets pretty hard to win archer-duels with just 150 wpf), pissing off my clanmates alot and if i'm bored of archery i grab my messer or other weapons from the ground and go into melee.
Not doing great damage in both melee and range but it's enough.


And pls leave the dmg-system the way it is now. It was a good step to determine the dmg-type by arrows. Only thing is, longbow sucks now. Buff it. Or nerf the other bows a little bit so it's not THAT useless.

[Jarlek]

18/18 (5IF, 6PS, 6PD, 6WM, 6ATH, 150wpf archery, 50wpf 2h) is the way to go for an hybrid-archer. I really don't know why Hybrid-Archers should be buffed.

I am doing pretty good in archery (Although it gets pretty hard to win archer-duels with just 150 wpf), pissing off my clanmates alot and if i'm bored of archery i grab my messer or other weapons from the ground and go into melee.
Not doing great damage in both melee and range but it's enough.


And pls leave the dmg-system the way it is now. It was a good step to determine the dmg-type by arrows. Only thing is, longbow sucks now. Buff it. Or nerf the other bows a little bit so it's not THAT useless.

Hyb-Archers shouldn't be buffed. What I want is for "pure" archers to have very big, very obvious disadvantages and for Hyb-archers, around the build you made, to be a much more obvious, better point and overall more effective. This would make it better for everyone as archers would stop running from melee fights (while still being at a disadvantage) and overall "I have super accuracy and can kill plate in (only, whine whine) 3-4 arrows but suck at melee so people should stop being angry at me and let me run away and delay and shoot, without giving them chance to fight back"

[Zekerage]

You keep saying you want a large obvious disadvantage for pure archers...... They're not melee capable (most of them, anyway)... what else do you want?

[Tydeus]

I see the community has the memory of a WORM BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH or something like that.

Just a few months ago everyone was complaining that HYBRIDS existed, and that archers could pick up every weapon "ooooooh pocket flamberge (Or Danish if someone points out the unsheathable thing) archers! Onoz that archer can carry a melee weapon that is unfair that he can melee and shoot!" And now you are surprised... that you got what you wantd?

Seriously, just accept the fact that you are all inferior people who don't know what you want (since you keep changing your minds) and give me all of your looms.

Indeed. I was never one who thought there was a problem with the old hybrid system, I only had an issue with the "sheathable" stuff. In the end I don't think people will really ever be satisfied with ranged. That's not to say there isn't a problem now (I'm not sure it's a big issue though).

[PieParadox]

I feel range is pretty balanced right now, but with the build I have right now, I feel a little OP as a hybrid.

Level 31
IF: 0
PS: 5
PD: 6
Ath: 6
Riding: 6
HA: 3
WM: 6
150 wpf in archery

I have a good amount of athletics and PS to be able to finish off theoretically weakened enemies, especially if I only use 1 stack of arrows and use a mace/langes messer. But I play on Haven nowadays...

edit. Could max out PS instead of getting riding. Could keep 4 riding, and then have 3 IF or something. I would then be able to melee with 6 IF, 6 PS, and 6 athleticsThe only thing I would lack would be the WPF really.

[Siboire]

Archery should be a support class, not some crazy killing machine like it is now. It's this month's flavor. There is just too many archers. Noobs are spec'ing archers cuz they can't melee but they can easily score kills by pewpewing and good players re-spec archers to buff their, already good, K/D ratio. Don't tell me archery is fine as it is  how can you not see it is too powerfull 

Also, all intelligent archers knows its better to use bodkins. Therefore, almost all archers use only bodkins. I can't call that "good arrow balance".