i'd rather they buff Agi builds rather than nerf str builds. Give more bonus to WM so that agi builds can hybrid better and more effectively. Or make it so that every 2 WM you get one extra skill point to spend in whatever (makes it easier for archers and throwers to melee and gives agi melee more opportunity to use shields, riding, or throwing etc.)Agi build should be more versatile but weaker than a str build.
This is actually not a bad suggestion. But the fact remains, you don't really need much WPF to hybrid these days, it's more about reducing repair cost only. This would work well if they made WPF matter though.
I don't mind leaving STR builds intact in this matter then.
Play on EU and ask for str/agi balance.
You'll get a ton of 18/21 and 15/24. 18/21 being the 2h, and 15/24 being the xbowmy old friends.
Wpf does matter. Not for 2h that much, but for shielders (not 1h without shield) and swing polearms, it is important.
Perhaps slightly reduce the wpf per strength level (-10%?) and make the health increase +1 per 2 levels.
Shielders are probably the only melee class that still needs high AGI to be viable.
simply cause they can take half a dozen or more heavy hits from a hard hitting 2h or polearm, whilst killing non-str builds in 1-3 hits reliably with anything.
No.
To clarify, you greatly underestimate athletics.
I'm playing a strength build for the first time ever, and it is hilarious how much easier it is compared to the balanced builds I usually play.
I can take 4-8 hits from 1h / non-str builds, and I usually 2-3 hit everybody (except other str builds).
I would really just like to see the effectiveness of armor and IF reduced. I feel that player skill would play a much bigger role if everybody died in 2-4 hits.
are you using the glaive? you cheapo :PGlaive, poleaxe, LWA, bec, and long bardiche, with the occasional bout of awlpike, warspear, and shortened spear usage (I like variety).
Glaive, poleaxe, LWA, bec, and long bardiche, with the occasional bout of awlpike, warspear, and shortened spear usage (I like variety).
Edit:
I really, really like variety:(click to show/hide)
Yes, that rant about armor looms is a bit offtopic. HP suggestion might not actually fix the problem. The emphasys is on the WPF change. Something MUST be done with WPF, it just can't be useless like this.
Feel free to suggest your own ideas on how to make WPF matter more.
I am using this build with cheap shield, light armor and scimitar
Strength: 12
Agility: 27
Skills to attributes: 8
Ironflesh: 1
Power Strike: 4
Shield: 6
Athletics: 9
Weapon Master: 3
One Handed: 130
and I am doing really well, always have positive kd and from time to time in top. So no, I dont understand why people use str builds.
I'm playing a strength build for the first time ever, and it is hilarious how much easier it is compared to the balanced builds I usually play.
I can take 4-8 hits from 1h / non-str builds, and I usually 2-3 hit everybody (except other str builds).
I would really just like to see the effectiveness of armor and IF reduced. I feel that player skill would play a much bigger role if everybody died in 2-4 hits.
the current system is balanced, no need to change something that is working fine.
EU has not matured and turned into NA yet, that's why it still has agi builds. And no, WPF doesn't really matter that much. It should matter more. You get a lot more benefits by going STR.
Not a bad suggestion either, but wpf reduction per str level won't matter until WPF itself starts to matter more.
I wonder what a str guy can do vs a 15/24 DGS guy that continuously can run in, hit and run out before the opponent can swing back. It's not even backpedalling (which still is effective against the average player), it's all the advantages you get by having faster movements than others. You notice an unaware enemy in your back while fighting ? No problem you just stop your duel and go take the kill. There's an horse charging at you full speed ? Thanks to your professional athletics training and extreme fitness your body has 0 inertia so you can run to one side, jump 3 meters in the opposite direction and land before you understand what you are doing.
NA has not matured and turned into EU yet, that's why it still has str builds. And yes, WPF does really matter that much. It should not matter more. You get a lot more benefits by going agi-balanced.
I wonder what a str guy can do vs a 15/24 DGS guy that continuously can run in, hit and run out before the opponent can swing back. It's not even backpedalling (which still is effective against the average player), it's all the advantages you get by having faster movements than others. You notice an unaware enemy in your back while fighting ? No problem you just stop your duel and go take the kill. There's an horse charging at you full speed ? Thanks to your professional athletics training and extreme fitness your body has 0 inertia so you can run to one side, jump 3 meters in the opposite direction and land before you understand what you are doing.
Bullshit. I've only EVER played balanced builds (with any imbalance leaning towards agi because I MUST hybrid) barring my STF strength builder and everything you're describing about agility DOES
NOT
HAPPEN
7 athletics means fuck all, maneuverability in combat is the same vs those str builders with only 4-5 athletics. Athletics ONLY decreases the time it takes you to go from a dead stop to full speed while sprinting. In combat you cannot sprint as there is that stupid Warband delay with it instead of it being on-demand like any sane FPS combat game. And 0 inertia my ass. Jumping 3 meters?
Seriously dude, I want the crack you smoked.
18/18 or 18/21 forever, but only because I like being able to do stuff like 1h/2h/polearm all at 100wpf.
Bullshit. I've only EVER played balanced builds (with any imbalance leaning towards agi because I MUST hybrid) barring my STF strength builder and everything you're describing about agility DOES
NOT
HAPPEN
7 athletics means fuck all, maneuverability in combat is the same vs those str builders with only 4-5 athletics. Athletics ONLY decreases the time it takes you to go from a dead stop to full speed while sprinting. In combat you cannot sprint as there is that stupid Warband delay with it instead of it being on-demand like any sane FPS combat game. And 0 inertia my ass. Jumping 3 meters?
Seriously dude, I want the crack you smoked.
18/18 or 18/21 forever, but only because I like being able to do stuff like 1h/2h/polearm all at 100wpf.
Bullshit. I've only EVER played balanced builds (with any imbalance leaning towards agi because I MUST hybrid) barring my STF strength builder and everything you're describing about agility DOESim am very biased but i wish this was true.. this would suit my style perfectly and make agi builds a contender compaired to str
NOT
HAPPEN
7 athletics means fuck all, maneuverability in combat is the same vs those str builders with only 4-5 athletics. Athletics ONLY decreases the time it takes you to go from a dead stop to full speed while sprinting. In combat you cannot sprint as there is that stupid Warband delay with it instead of it being on-demand like any sane FPS combat game. And 0 inertia my ass. Jumping 3 meters?
Seriously dude, I want the crack you smoked.
18/18 or 18/21 forever, but only because I like being able to do stuff like 1h/2h/polearm all at 100wpf.
WPF affects damage as same as power strike.
In combat you cannot sprint as there is that stupid Warband delay with it instead of it being on-demand like any sane FPS combat game.
NA has not matured and turned into EU yet, that's why it still has str builds. And yes, WPF does really matter that much. It should not matter more. You get a lot more benefits by going agi-balanced.
I wonder what a str guy can do vs a 15/24 DGS guy that continuously can run in, hit and run out before the opponent can swing back. It's not even backpedalling (which still is effective against the average player), it's all the advantages you get by having faster movements than others. You notice an unaware enemy in your back while fighting ? No problem you just stop your duel and go take the kill. There's an horse charging at you full speed ? Thanks to your professional athletics training and extreme fitness your body has 0 inertia so you can run to one side, jump 3 meters in the opposite direction and land before you understand what you are doing.
So I do fine in duel and suck in battle with my STR build, what do?archers shoot you and you suicide.
Little question for you, which is the sane FPS
Another solution is to nerf the free wpf you get per level, and channel it into wpm in stead.
and there's a big difference between 116 wpf and 146 wpf.
people used to have 200 and more wpf pre -patch (me included) and it was ridiciculous
I didn't notice much difference between 116 wpf and 146 wpf, to be honest. What difference are you refering to?
faster blocking
I don't know how to exactly explan this , but the transaction from feinting to blocking and from switching block directions feels smoother (to me at least) with more wpf.
Just give agi/wpf more passive bonuses, so agility actually makes people more, ya know, agile:
-increases maximum turn/spin speed (right now you can do a mid-air lolstab 360 in plate and 3 agi)
-increase block/stagger/'blockstun' recovery speed
-increase feint window
-increase chamber window
-reduce fall damage
-increase jump height/reduce 'jump snare' after landing
Just some ideas. Don't nerf str, just improve agi
This would be optimal, but would probably require more coding than the devs are willing to do. The easy way out is to make wpp needed per wpf increase linear, rather than exponential.
The advantages you get by solely relying on the wpp gained per level versus putting points into weapon mastery are ludicrously unbalan
ced.
YES FUCKING YES
FINALLY THESE PATHETIC MORTALS UNBANNED BALTON
BUT IN REALITY HE COULDVE BEEN UNBANNED ANYTIME HE WAS JUST FUCKING WITH THEM
AHHAHA GET FUCKED MODERATORS
heh
Indeed, I have returned to wreak havoc upon the unworthy. The times to rejoice are finally upon us.I agree
I like how the general consensus here is that str builds are bad for duels, except all you need to be perfectly fine, is a little patience. Patience and you'll have the edge over your opponent, especially if you've also stacked more armor than them. Str is clearly the better stat for all around effectiveness. The only advantages to agi that I see, are for hunting ranged in battle servers. I've had everything from 30/9 to 12/27 and most everything, I've done more than once.
Currently I have a 15/24 build and the only thing I've been able to accomplish better than when I use heavier str builds, is my ability to both hunt down ranged and forsake patience in a duel against someone with a longer ranged weapon. That's not exactly a long list for the incredible amount of advantages I could name for when I use, say, a 24/15 build with a bec. Tons of damage, decent speed with 5 athletics, Lots of survivability with IF, fighting multiple opponents becomes easier due to your ability to do twice as much damage to people(fighting multiple people often becomes a battle against time as you're mostly back pedaling and they're running forward, or if you aren't back pedaling you're weaving between opponents and that always makes you susceptible to getting hit, which you can't really afford to do with 0-low IF athletics builds).
Oh and lets not forget to mention a new added benefit, or dare I say necessity. For Strategus you'll obviously not want your commanders to die as they're your spawn points and they can make all the difference in the world(Just look at battlefield games). Why risk having a commander with low HP (Especially when you have passive hp regen) when you can have guys in heavy armor and str builds as your commanders and ensure a few less deaths for them, or allow them to play a little riskier than they otherwise could.
Seriously, a linear wpp requirement per wpf would fix everything. 5 wpp per 1wpf point.
In such a scenario, this would be the case:
A lvl 30 with 0WM would have a max of 51 wpf in a single weapon type
A lvl 30 with 5WM would have 101
A lvl 30 with 8WM would have 155, which would be the soft cap. Seeing as anything over 8WM requires completely sacrificing PS to the point where most of your hits will whiff on anyone who is wearing more than cloth.
The current case:
At lvl 30 with 0WM you can get 111wpf in a single prof, versus 146wpf with 5WM, or 172wpf with 8WM.
61 points of WPF are not much (0WM vs 8WM atm), but 104 are (0WM vs 8WM with the new system). The change would be a major incentive to make agility builds not just for athletics (or riding if you're cav), but for WM as well. As it currently stands, the only people who get WM are those who are new, and ranged.
I think an easier fix would just be to give a harsher speed penalty to people wearing heavy armor.
But this would hurt agi too... Unless agi builds had reduced penalties for wearing armor. For example 18 agi -> reduced speed and wpf penalty for wearing armor of total <18 weight.
It's pretty rare for an agi build to be wearing plate though. Regardless, they would still run a HELL of a lot faster in plate then someone with 1,2, or 3 agi in plate.
That's not exactly a long list for the incredible amount of advantages I could name for when I use, say, a 24/15 build with a bec.
If your going to increase the wpf attainable or wpf effectiveness in general, then you absolutly positivley without question lower the swing speed of all weapons drastically. Or we will once again have agi stackers swining weapons so fast that you cant even see the attack nor block it due to latency differences, or they can outswing the block animations.
I never ever ever ever ever ever want crpg to go back down that road again. It makes the game stupid and not player skill based, with no teamwork. Slower weapons across the board and everyone going str with lower wpf has forced more teamwork then anything else simply because weapons move slow enough for a good player to block easily. But you can't.block in two directions at once......so teamwork is born.
If your going to increase the wpf attainable or wpf effectiveness in general, then you absolutly positivley without question lower the swing speed of all weapons drastically. Or we will once again have agi stackers swining weapons so fast that you cant even see the attack nor block it due to latency differences, or they can outswing the block animations.And it's made duels ridiculously boring for top tier duelists. The simple fact that there will never be a fastest speed crpg server just adds to that problem. 200 wpf wouldn't be so fast that someone couldn't counter attack anyway, it was only the people who had retired several times and had gotten a huge amount of wpf that were the issue there. As far as Weapon Master and wpf goes, I'd rather see WM buffed than passive wpp nerfed. If melee gets any slower you're just going to turn off a huge portion of this player base because of it.
I never ever ever ever ever ever want crpg to go back down that road again. It makes the game stupid and not player skill based, with no teamwork. Slower weapons across the board and everyone going str with lower wpf has forced more teamwork then anything else simply because weapons move slow enough for a good player to block easily. But you can't.block in two directions at once......so teamwork is born.
So, you want the game to be a battle of latency? Right now the difference between 20 and 70 ms is almost negligable. If anything we should endorse and improve on that so eu to na battles are more even on a internet base. Also duels have become even more challenging since players now use chambers and delay swing more than ever before. Two things that were barely noticed nor used, so I cpmpletly disagree with your statements about duels.Alright you're just speaking nonsense at this point. Just because melee becomes faster doesn't mean it's going to all of the sudden break melee, there's a threshold for that. Think for a second about how long it takes a swing to go through from start to finish now, and then add 50 wpf to that, unless you have a slow reaction time or 100+ ping, you'll be fine. Remember 100 ping is .1 second delay.
As for your whine about the pikemen, the clear solution is to kill the weaker player first. Ie the pikemen, and no not all teamwork is just a pikemen. Any two players attack together with different directions and landing the hits will beat a skilled player. I find that to be balancing and enforecing teamwork.
... As far as what you call teamwork and player skill, following a tin can around with a pike may count as teamwork, but there's zero fucking skill involved in that, and that's what pub server teamwork amounts to right now.
Second, fastest is easier since it is matter of click spams. The footwork and mind games that make duels more interesting goes away the faster players can attack and recover.I've played an enormous amount of both fastest and medium speed duels. I find fastest more challenging.
STR builds with low WPF are way too viable at the moment. Something needs to be done with either agi or str builds.
STR builds with loomed armor are even worse.
Let's think on that.
STR builds get:
+ more hp
+ more damage
- lower run speed
o less WPF, but not that it matters anyway
AGI builds get:
+ higher run speed
- less hp
- less damage
o more WPF, but not that it matters anyway
First of all, you brought up pikemen. So don't get upset when your wrong. Second, fastest is easier since it is matter of click spams. The footwork and mind games that make duels more interesting goes away the faster players can attack and recover. Third, why would you want to create a false advantage because someone is located farther from the server? That is fairly elitist in my opinion. Lastley look at the current ingame speeds of weapons like, longsword, pick, warspear, awlpike, in the hands of someone with 147 wpf and tell me that they are not borderline too fast for the player on the otherside to pick up on their screen. Don't forget to include server lag on top of all this.I asked you what the shit YOU said about pikemen had to do with it, you practically told me "pikemen poke people" you may have used a word I used in my post, but you in no way made a point with any relevance to this conversation.
sorry tydeus, but CRPG was made for normal people, not warband pros. The slowness of CRPG helps new players get into warband, and helps them learn far quicker than native. Duels may be boring, but CRPG isn't about duels, its about the other game modes. Once you can have 1 minute+ duels with other players, you ought to work on your battle/ seige skill more.Thucydides... You do realize warband starts you out with stones right? it's profoundly less "new" player friendly than native. In native regardless of how long you've been playing, everyone has the same stats and gear that you do, you're on an equal playing field. Also, I never said the servers should be replaced with fastest speed servers. If you believe I'm saying that, you missed my point when I was talking about 50 ms differences and 200 wpf. 200 wpf is still going to be slower than(or equal to) a fastest speed server in native(Which is the point). And just because I bring up 200 wpf, doesn't mean I'm saying everyone has to have 200 wpf. As it stands, most melee don't even get above 140 wpf, it's not like you'd all of the sudden have half of them at 200 wpf, that would be called poor implementation.
Learning curve for crpg is less steep than native because of the slowness, it lets people get used to blocking and the proper mechanisms of melee combat rather than stupid native where you pretty much pick up a sword and board and hide from range.
CRPG starts you off as a low level peasant, and you "earn" your weapon and stats in typical rpg fashion. Native does not give you an incentive for you to learn melee combat, since you can choose an archer/cav class and get kills that way. Because mose people that play Native are either scrubs or pros, new people would feel quite overwhelmed when faced with a melee that is better than them, much easier to spam arrows/ roll as cav than deal with the manual blocking.The issue in this thread is that agi isn't strong enough. Which means that by increasing speed by nerfing damage more, could very well keep the current status quo, which isn't want is desired. The point is to buff agi or nerf str. Meaning for example you would increase speed without a damage nerf. Otherwise, you're doing one of two things, talking about things unrelated to this thread, or are of the mindset that str/agi builds are currently perfectly balanced.
I personally wouldn't mind fastest speed, it would suit my playstyle a lot more since i can counter feints with chambers, and counter chambers with holds. But i'm not an average player, and i think that a "twitch based" game is less fun than a "chess like" game. Not everyone has the reflexes of a 14 year old ADD sufferer.
Plus, i feel from a realism perspective the current speed benefits people that like to roleplay big scary men in armor. An increase in speed without an equal nerf in damage means that these big scary men become slowass pincushions from 200 wpf agi builds and archers. Remember that speed increase also means archers kiting even more than now. but i hear devs won't ever let this happen, so lol.
IF ANYTHING, a duel server on fastest would probably appease the "pros" and the "noobs". Pros can have their high stake duels in a separate server, while the noobs can be spared the humiliating defeats while learning the game
The issue in this thread is that agi isn't strong enough. Which means that by increasing speed by nerfing damage more, could very well keep the current status quo, which isn't want is desired. The point is to buff agi or nerf str. Meaning for example you would increase speed without a damage nerf. Otherwise, you're doing one of two things, talking about things unrelated to this thread, or are of the mindset that str/agi builds are currently perfectly balanced.
Also, you seem to be assuming that anyone with a high agi/WM build would automatically be overpowered when, if that were true, that would mean where we're currently at, is balance, but it isn't. Which means there is a safe amount of room to increase speed without necessarily meaning a transition to agi being OP.
i don't think we're dealing with a linear line where we can buff agi to a certain point and then it'll be balanced, I think that theres a threshold where, once agi becomes buffed to that certain point, we'll see a giant shift in the Meta-Game. If we were to buff WPF, i guarantee you that you'll be seeing a lot more hybrids, where the end result would be even worse range spam. This is because you only need 100 wpf to use a weapon according to it's stats, so if WM gives more wpf, we'll see crossbow/2h/pole a lot more as well as an increase in throwers.Actually, I think I've said this before but I'll say it again. What about changing wpf for ranged so they only change some things?
This is the logical consequence of giving more wpf, since if you already are a weaponsmaster, you don't need points in a melee weapon as much as you need it in a range weapon.
I understand your frustration with the "slowness" of Crpg, but other than nerfing the strength build theres really no way to buff agi without inadvertently buffing range. Or hybrids. Perhaps a nerf to the softcap wpf ceiling, thats pretty much it.
Actually, I think I've said this before but I'll say it again. What about changing wpf for ranged so they only change some things?
For example
archers:
All bows have the same accuracy. Wpf only increases drawspeed.
Xbows:
wpf increases accuracy, but reload speed remains the same. (or vice versa)
Throwing:
Increases throwing speed, but not the accuracy.
If you want me to elabourate the whole balance/shift this would require I'll do it. Too tired now. Going to bed.
with the wpf requirement to use bows, hybrids will still be buffed significantly with a buff to WM. this seems like a lot of work though, as well as redrawing what we think of as "balance". I don't believe this would mitigate the range spam though, since hybriding with a crossbow would be so much easier.I know. That's why I asked if you wanted it more elaborated. Basically changing archery to be fixed accuracy, "your build chooses speed, but you'll never be OP" and making ranged be what it should be (in a game). Dangerous when it hits, but innacurate most of the time. Kinda what they did in strat. chadz is not alone about wanting volleys to be the best ranged tactic instead of CS:Medival "fuck coordinating with the others" (also applies to melee)
i don't think we're dealing with a linear line where we can buff agi to a certain point and then it'll be balanced, I think that theres a threshold where, once agi becomes buffed to that certain point, we'll see a giant shift in the Meta-Game. If we were to buff WPF, i guarantee you that you'll be seeing a lot more hybrids, where the end result would be even worse range spam. This is because you only need 100 wpf to use a weapon according to it's stats, so if WM gives more wpf, we'll see crossbow/2h/pole a lot more as well as an increase in throwers.Str/Agi determine everything about one's build. If you touch anything relating to Str/Agi you screw with the meta-game, there's no way around that.
This is the logical consequence of giving more wpf, since if you already are a weaponsmaster, you don't need points in a melee weapon as much as you need it in a range weapon.
I understand your frustration with the "slowness" of Crpg, but other than nerfing the strength build theres really no way to buff agi without inadvertently buffing range. Or hybrids. Perhaps a nerf to the softcap wpf ceiling, thats pretty much it.
also, can you strop trying to make it sound like I'm advocating this simply because I want crpg to be faster. I have 100 wpf in 1h right now, that's not exactly fast. If I were that worried about it, I'd have a lot more WM and I wouldn't hybrid 2 melee types.
Str/Agi determine everything about one's build. If you touch anything relating to Str/Agi you screw with the meta-game, there's no way around that.
What's wrong with having proficiency in a lot of different weapons? The reason hybrids were a problem in the past wasn't because of wpf, it's was due to what you could bring item-wise, that completely got fixed by the slot system. I see no advantage what-so-ever with being crossbow/2h/pole over crossbow+any single melee. None, zero. If you think maybe I'm missing some hidden advantage, please enlighten me.
Indeed you would think there would be an increase in throwing as well as all ranged, due to them having extra wpf, but the biggest thing you can do to scale that back, is to increase the wpf requirement per PT/PD and this part is linear.
also, can you strop trying to make it sound like I'm advocating this simply because I want crpg to be faster. I have 100 wpf in 1h right now, that's not exactly fast. If I were that worried about it, I'd have a lot more WM and I wouldn't hybrid 2 melee types.
so you want to be able to use more than one melee weapon, i'd support that. Would make hoplite classes fun.Not really this either, I can already use two melee types, I do it every day I play crpg, and I do both effectively. The issue is more along the lines of what has to be sacrificed when you go the route of an agi build, just in general. Be it so that you can use multiple weapon types or the desire for high athletics or riding, there's a lot you lose, which is the exact opposite for str.
To sum it up nicely, Str gives too many benefits without enough drawbacks while Agi has too many drawbacks without enough benefits.
Not reading whole 8 pages but I feel the game is good as it is now. Having more STR really slows down your character too much and that matters both in siege and battle mode. I've seen tons of AGI polearm characters wearing only cloth armor and rape the hell out of many STR tincans, but I rarely see it go other way around. AGI gives you speed benefit which is very important both in dueling and 1 vs multiple opponents clashes. In duels STR hoes get circled around and against multiple oponents all that extra HP helps you only to live 1 second longer while you are gangbanged.
And for those who think they can get by with under 100 WPF in any weapon, you are just fooling yourself. Sure, you can kill tons of new players but later, after you meet a player who gets you ever time, you will realize that your low WPF just doesn't cut it, literally.
Not reading whole 8 pages but I feel the game is good as it is now. Having more STR really slows down your character too much and that matters both in siege and battle mode. I've seen tons of AGI polearm characters wearing only cloth armor and rape the hell out of many STR tincans, but I rarely see it go other way around. AGI gives you speed benefit which is very important both in dueling and 1 vs multiple opponents clashes. In duels STR hoes get circled around and against multiple oponents all that extra HP helps you only to live 1 second longer while you are gangbanged.true!
And for those who think they can get by with under 100 WPF in any weapon, you are just fooling yourself. Sure, you can kill tons of new players but later, after you meet a player who gets you ever time, you will realize that your low WPF just doesn't cut it, literally.
The thing I don't like about this is that it would force everyone to get at least 18 agi. After armor reduction you NEED 100 WPF for your weapon stats to perform as listed. It would kill a lot of diversity in builds.How is that any worse than current mechanics basically forcing everyone to get at least 18 str?
How is that any worse than current mechanics basically forcing everyone to get at least 18 str?
NOBODY seriously plays this game with 3 strength. That's for pure joke builds like 13 shield or 13 athletics where you are just a waste of a player slot.
You can certainly play this game with 3 agility. I'd wager more than a handful do play it like that and have reasonable success with it.
There's just nothing in agility that's as powerful as Power Strike. 8-9 PS is awesome. 8-9 shield or athletics makes you a gimp. Weapon Master should be agility's equivalent of power strike -- the "must have" ability. But as currently implemented, it's not.
Let's say an agi char uses good armor.
A char with 18 agi and 25 total weight would have reduced penalty for those 18 weight (that he has in agi) and would further be fully penalized for the additional 7 weight.
A char with 9 agi and 25 total weight would have reduced penalty for 9 weight and would further be fully penalized for additional 14 weight.
If they use medium armor, lets say 16 total weight:
A char with 18 agi will have only reduced penalty, whereas a char with 9 agi would have 9 weight reduced penalty and 7 weight full penalty.
First off, you CAN do pretty well in this game with 15 str. Totally doable, I do it all the time. You're also looking at this problem wrong. The way WPF works in CRPG is to allow you to either use multiple weapon types, overcome a ton of armor, or go for a ton of ranged accuracy. With Balton's system, it would allow you to be good in one weapon and that's it. Along with that, you lose out on the ability to do a lot of other things as you MUST invest 6 points into WM. It would kill a bunch of essentially balanced builds. My two most common builds are 21/15 and 21/18. I couldn't use 21/15 anymore because I'd only have 101 WPF. The only way it would be doable would be if I didn't wear ANY armor. I sure as hell couldn't use my 21/18 build, 'cause I only use 3 WM with that build. That system would kill a lot of balanced builds.
The thing I don't like about this is that it would force everyone to get at least 18 agi. After armor reduction you NEED 100 WPF for your weapon stats to perform as listed. It would kill a lot of diversity in builds.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like a lot of what you're talking about here with wpf requirements, is from a ranged perspective, and Specifically due to their relatively new game mechanic; that effective PT/PD is dependent upon your effective wpf. If this is the case, I believe I stated it earlier that, Str/Agi are the two most game defining stats in warband. If you touch them at all you have to be prepared for not only a meta-game shift, but to change other factors as well. One of these I mentioned, is the wpf per PT/PD. You could easily manipulate that in several different ways to make up for anything you do to wpf.
I'm sure that were any changes done to str/agi or str/agi dependent variables, the dev team would at least take note of things like this before implementing changes.
I don't like Vibe's suggestion, because it would eliminate all reason to wear anything below mail, even with a 27/12 9IF 9PS build.
Rustyspoon, what you are stating as the disadvantage to my proposed change, is actually the whole idea behind it.
You see, it would serve to severely balance out the bonus gained from heavy armor pertaining to agi vs str builds. Right now, wearing heavy armor as a str build clearly has a significantly large advantage over heavy armor on an agi build. With my change, you could still go str heavy, but you would incur massive penalties, just like going agi heavy is right now.
Basically, it would make a 12/27 the same, in terms of effectiveness, as a 27/12. As things stand now, a 27/12 is the most powerful inf build in the game, however, a 12/27 is a complete joke.
I don't like Vibe's suggestion, because it would eliminate all reason to wear anything below mail, even with a 27/12 9IF 9PS build.
Rustyspoon, what you are stating as the disadvantage to my proposed change, is actually the whole idea behind it.
You see, it would serve to severely balance out the bonus gained from heavy armor pertaining to agi vs str builds. Right now, wearing heavy armor as a str build clearly has a significantly large advantage over heavy armor on an agi build. With my change, you could still go str heavy, but you would incur massive penalties, just like going agi heavy is right now.
Basically, it would make a 12/27 the same, in terms of effectiveness, as a 27/12. As things stand now, a 27/12 is the most powerful inf build in the game, however, a 12/27 is a complete joke.
Are you some kind of SCI-FI writer? Just because someone has high STR does not make him a superman. The reality is usually opposite of what you wrote: STR guy gets polestunned two times by the AGI polearm user(by the time he gets out of the stun, another swing is coming his way) and gets finished off by a 2h overhead from another guy. Whereas in the same scene the AGI player runs back and forth trough the crowd making them TK each other and finishes them off 1 by 1 with spin hits. This is my experience from day to day fighting on the siege servers. I tell you what, come with your STR char to eu siege servers and see how you do.
Clarification, I never said don't buff agi. I said if you are going to improve on it decrease the speed of the game overall in order to lower ping effects on the game. Essentially high wpf char will swing as fast as they do now, and everyone else gets slower. There is a point in swing speed where it becomes stupid fast, accomplished in previous crpg builds. When achieved the game can no longer keep up from one gamer to another due to lag of server, connection, and graphics. Crpg is meant for 200 person battles and should continue to improve the gameply on such a player base.
3. I am speaking from my experience - come to EU Siege servers and try your STR builds, than come back here and tell us all about it.
1. I have heard that PS becomes less effective after a certain point once there is no speed to back up the swing
2. Without footwork speed you are doomed to be kick-stunned many times
3. I am speaking from my experience - come to EU Siege servers and try your STR builds, than come back here and tell us all about it.
1. I have heard that PS becomes less effective after a certain point once there is no speed to back up the swing
2. Without footwork speed you are doomed to be kick-stunned many times3. I am speaking from my experience - come to EU Siege servers and try your STR builds, than come back here and tell us all about it.
Funny you mention this Allers favorite hobby is kicking , ask SaulCanner how much he loves Allers when he kicks :D:D
But seriously, how can people say that STR is not OP compared to agility?
Bringing up Allers as an argument for STR being op is like bringing up Hippy_with_a_scimi as an argument for the scimi being op. Just saying :)
Bringing up Allers as an argument for STR being op is like bringing up Hippy_with_a_scimi as an argument for the scimi being op. Just saying :)That's actually not what they're doing. See we would have to be saying that the elite scimitar is gimp as fuck for it to be the same. You're talking about someone being skilled and people blaming the weapon, they're talking about str being disadvantageous and susceptible to kicks, yet they pointed out an individual that completely refuted Mordhau's statements.
The change to armor also removed the random whiff that made str+armor THAT much powerful, now you can chain stagger then with low level peasants.All while doing miniscule amounts of damage.
That's actually not what they're doing. See we would have to be saying that the elite scimitar is gimp as fuck for it to be the same. You're talking about someone being skilled and people blaming the weapon, they're talking about str being disadvantageous and susceptible to kicks, yet they pointed out an individual that completely refuted Mordhau's statements.
Lol, you made 19-7 and you posted pictures about it? GTFO. Let me see some original-post worthy ownage.
Really, if they nerfed STR chars my fights would become even easier, thus I should not be even posting in this thread. I should be praying that they do nerf it, but I simply know that STR builds are not as OP as you say they are. Maybe elite players can get advantage and get past the short of athletics, but for majority of average players nerfing STR would lead only to confusion and grief.
Without real ownage your arguments are not up to par with your story. Actaully, disregard that. Any skilled player can get any score he wants. To counter-argument you I should go to NA server with some STF agility char, top the board with 160 ms ping, come back here saying: HERE IS THE PROOF? I was not challenging you to come back here with screenshots as I thought you would be rationale enough to see that you can get killed just as fairly by AGI char.
Your whole story is based upon 1 or 2 elite players when really it should be about average joe. That's all I'm saying.
Wow, talk about ignorant.
First off - the point of the post was not in KD but the way how i got kills. I picked up my STR char and played just about how an average joe would, more or less. I showed you the screen because I topped the board anyway.
It's good that you mention an average joe... having a STR build gives you A LOT more hp than having an AGI build. This means an average joe can afford to make atleast 2-5 more mistakes before he gets killed. It also takes him 2-4 hits less to kill people, making every successful hit that much more effective.
Whereas an AGI build can only take one or two hits before he goes down and it takes him more swings to kill other people. Now give an AGI build to an average joe and lets see how he does.
I'm not even going to go over to players who can actually play.
Every idiot knows that STR has more benefits, be it for a bad or a good player.
If you give two noobs a lvl30 char and one is str build the other one is agi build i promise you the first one will do a lot better.
Agi builds are for people who can block good enough, or can move good enough to get any hits. Its probably safe to say that
a mediocre str-build-player by far does better then a mediocre agi-whore.
How to fix this.
If one only nerfs STR, it only makes the balanced builds more preferable, making build variation less.
If one only did that, the STR-AGI builds spectrum would look like this:
Heavy STR - STR - BALANCED - AGI - Heavy AGI
Sucks - Bad - good - Bad - Sucks
Now, everything to the left of balanced is green, and everything above is blue-red. I would love to see all flavours in the STR to AGI spectrum to be somewhat good. It would create more variation on the battlefield. That means the table above should be all green.
Ergo: AGI needs a buff.. :)
This can be done 2 ways:
Either nerf STR and Balanced until all is equal.
Buff Agi alone. (But how? more wpf will create netcode-bending issues, giving AGI IF would remove str flavour, modifying the wpf-curve will harm Hybrids..)
Buffing agi by modifying how athletics works could be interesting.
What if Athletics became progressively more powerful?
Reintroducing AGI-based swing speed, perhaps in a lower degree than before
Make the wpf curve be modified by how many wpf professions you are using. (One curve for 2wep hybrids, one curve for 1wep pure builds) This would make it possible to adjust the pure AGI wpf builds separately from Hybrids.
Again, the goal should be to make the whole spectrum from STR to AGI equally viable.
Linear 5wpp per 1wpf, just like Balton said.Don't you think 155 wpf for someone with 8 wm would be really slow? The average skill level is already starting to become very high so I suggest let people with 8 wm have 180-200 wpf. Make it 4wpp per wpf.
Don't you think 155 wpf for someone with 8 wm would be really slow? The average skill level is already starting to become very high so I suggest let people with 8 wm have 180-200 wpf. Make it 4wpp per wpf.
Or make it so like in singleplayer where an agility point gives you additional wpp. I believe its 5 in native, make it like 10 here. Or just let agility increase swing speed, cause what exactly does agility give you now? Strength gives you 1 hitpoint, agility like 0.2 of an athlethics point?
I think one of the major issues is:
Power strike giving a swing speed enhancement.
Why would this be bad? This is the way it used to be at one point, and it was good. Balanced builds being... well, balanced, unbalanced builds being for specialized chars.
Heavy STR - STR - BALANCED - AGI - Heavy AGI
Sucks - Bad - good - Bad - Sucks
Why would this be bad? This is the way it used to be at one point, and it was good. Balanced builds being... well, balanced, unbalanced builds being for specialized chars.I don't know, cause that pigeon hole's everyone into only a few builds? It removes variety from the game? It implies that any specialized character will be bad, even after considering what they specialize in?
thats not what i'm saying, i'm saying that bringing up allers or hippy in a question that requires balance is difficult because you're pointing at players far above the norm. Most people can't kick with no athletics, and people with higher athletics do kicks easier, its just so few people use them.And I'm saying, you're wrong. Most people couldn't kick even if you gave them 15 athletics. Str builds have an easier time kicking people than anyone else. Why? Because it's easy to kick someone that facehugs/charges you. When you kick it stops you from moving forward and your foot doesn't extend to 10 feet. No matter what you do, you can't kick someone if they're backpedaling from you, end of story. You will never kick someone that is playing the distance game, ever.
But thanks for the recap
Even though I'm convinced strength is better for melee, is this really that big a problem?No classes are as simple as you just made them out to be. For instance, the best cavalry, the ones who get the most kills, are all agi builds with huge amounts of riding. Archer's aren't "best" with a slight favor to Agi, that's just what most people do because it's the accurate way to go. Damage archers are equally as effective and they're all Str builds. You're acting as if there's only one effective and enjoyable way to play something when there are several.
2H/pole - Focus on Strength
Shield - Balance OR slight favor of strength
Support pole - Balance
Archers - Slight favor of agility
Dedicated Xbow - Focus on agility
HorseRiders - Balance
HorseRanged - Slight favor of agility
Throwers - Slight favor of strength
Other hybrids - Balance OR agility
Its not like all classes go full strength. Do that with someone like an archer or most hybrids and you won't be effective.
Just because full strength works better for melee than full agi doesn't mean there is a problem.
I don't know, cause that pigeon hole's everyone into only a few builds? It removes variety from the game? It implies that any specialized character will be bad, even after considering what they specialize in?No?
Support pole - Balance
No?What you quoted and what you're talking about are two separate things...
The current situation pigeon-holes melee into STR builds. Back then you could go for slow, clumsy but hard hitting str builds, or fast, agile, yet puny agi builds, whilst balanced builds... were just balanced? Which actually made sense...
Yeah, about that one. I will pick strength build as dedicated poker, no doubt. Being able to one-hit people with pokes to the face and soak some damage is vital.
No classes are as simple as you just made them out to be. For instance, the best cavalry, the ones who get the most kills, are all agi builds with huge amounts of riding. Archer's aren't "best" with a slight favor to Agi, that's just what most people do because it's the accurate way to go. Damage archers are equally as effective and they're all Str builds. You're acting as if there's only one effective and enjoyable way to play something when there are several.
I just made that post as an example, of course there are a bunch of different ways you can adjust them based on style/skill level /how you define "balance" etc.Then stop thinking about it only in the perspective of one's build. Part of game development and balance is creating a set of tools that your player base can find things to do with. Look at the stats themselves without attachment to a weapon. Strength just has far more going for it than agility does, it's a weak tool. Most of this conversation isn't even about "full agi builds", as such a build is unreasonable due to item requirements being strength based.
I'm trying to demonstrate that JUST BECAUSE strength is > than agility for most infantry doesn't mean there needs to be a change. I don't think there needs to be an inner balance that makes full str builds suck as much as full agi builds suck. For some builds full strength sucks, for other builds full strength rules. Just because almost all full agi builds suck doesn't mean it needs to be looked at that much.
No?Which is not the same as Thomek posted. Thomek posted that a str focus is worse than balanced and agi focus is worse than balanced. You now post that all types are equal in effectiveness, but still different. That is what it should be.
The current situation pigeon-holes melee into STR builds. Back then you could go for slow, clumsy but hard hitting str builds, or fast, agile, yet puny agi builds, whilst balanced builds... were just balanced? Which actually made sense...
Power strike is the speed at which the weapon swings, WPF is how often you can swing the weapon I believe.No, Powerstrike adds damage to your swings and has nothing to do with swing speed. WPF increases swing speed, percentually. So faster weapons get more of an increase than slower weapons. WPF also adds slightly to your damage and also decreases breaking chance.
I'm pretty sure that powerstrike effects the speed of the swing.Nope, has never worked like that. What the hell is the difference between swing speed and how often you can swing your weapon?
WPF is how often you can swing your weapon.
Need dev's to confirm or deny it but it has worked like this for a long time as far as I know.
Nope, has never worked like that. What the hell is the difference between swing speed and how often you can swing your weapon?
Swing speed is how quickly the weapon gets from A to B during a swing.Well thats not an independent value in Warband. You have only swing speed which covers both things you mentioned. Swing speed is mentioned by wpf and base weapon speed.
The second is how quickly you can prepare and fire another attack.
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Holy shit balby, 12 shield ath and wm with looms?
Absolutely hate the huscarl shield, can't see anything in first person with the damn thing >:(, heavy heather shield ftw
And I'm saying, you're wrong. Most people couldn't kick even if you gave them 15 athletics. Str builds have an easier time kicking people than anyone else. Why? Because it's easy to kick someone that facehugs/charges you. When you kick it stops you from moving forward and your foot doesn't extend to 10 feet. No matter what you do, you can't kick someone if they're backpedaling from you, end of story. You will never kick someone that is playing the distance game, ever.
If you move significantly slower than someone they generally try to outfootwork you. This means things like circling you, which is best done at close range.
Bob...using a shield? I DON'T BELIEVE YOU!
Absolutely hate the huscarl shield, can't see anything in first person with the damn thing >:(, heavy heather shield ftwAnd why would you want to use first person?
No, Powerstrike adds damage to your swings and has nothing to do with swing speed. WPF increases swing speed, percentually. So faster weapons get more of an increase than slower weapons. WPF also adds slightly to your damage and also decreases breaking chance.
The only way I know of that power strike could be considered to increase attack speed is that it reduces the time an attack must be traveling to inflict a non-glancing hit. That is to say power strike increases the duration of the sweet spot for an attack, and some portion of that increase is prior to the beginning of the original sweet spot in the attack sequence.Actually, you bring up an extremely valid point with this, even if it wasn't your intention. The NA servers have this rampant swing combo called the "Castor Swing"(Though I'm sure Harmless Peasant was really the first one to start abusing this), which is basically just a combination of footwork on your part, your opponents, as well as turning into your swing. The next question of course is, can that time difference be called an advantage? Can you, by getting say, 9 PS and turning into every swing, create a clear advantage over either a balanced build or an agility build? Can you "Castor Swing" better than anyone else?
Actually, you bring up an extremely valid point with this, even if it wasn't your intention. The NA servers have this rampant swing combo called the "Castor Swing"(Though I'm sure Harmless Peasant was really the first one to start abusing this), which is basically just a combination of footwork on your part, your opponents, as well as turning into your swing. The next question of course is, can that time difference be called an advantage? Can you, by getting say, 9 PS and turning into every swing, create a clear advantage over either a balanced build or an agility build? Can you "Castor Swing" better than anyone else?in my opinion yes you would be amazed how many times people will out swing you with weapons the shouldnt be able to outswing you with.
Someone explain to me again what a "Castor Swing" is :SWell, basically one of the mechanics of warband is that if two people are standing still, staring at each other, no one should be able to get off two swings in a row if they both have the best possible reaction time. So it's hit, block, hit, block, etc. When you throw footwork into the mix and turning into your swings, that's not really the case. What can happen is that when you go for your second swing if you turn into it, forcing the swing to connect early in the animation(Normally this would just glance, not even stunning your opponent), and they're also moving into the swing, you can get off two consecutive swings. Even if they blocked the first one, the second will still connect. There are counters to it, but the best thing to do is just to know when you need to block twice.
Someone explain to me again what a "Castor Swing" is :SIts American humbojumbo for a hiltslash, which is a name that actually makes sense.
Its American humbojumbo for a hiltslash, which is a name that actually makes sense.Finally, I get to know the non retarded name for it.
From what you described it really does sound like you were talking about hiltslashing :)I think it is the same thing, did a search for the term and found a close description. Never heard anyone in NA call it that though, maybe because I only recently started really getting into native duels, crpg duels are just so slooooow.
No.
To clarify, you greatly underestimate athletics.
I completely agree... i think on Eu servers many top players have agi builds , even with 5 PS you can deal good damage, and imo for a 2h/pole weapon 5 PS is enough (considering also the bonus damage of occasional strikes to the head), just look at Phyrex,Xquality, Phase, Kinngrimm etc...It's not just about being able to move fast though, sometimes it's also about minimizing that wpf penalty.
Plus, if you have high agi/athletics you can use heavy armors and still move pretty fast
I get what you're saying, but you're missing my point that it would incur massive penalties to people who have relatively balanced builds.
For example, this is the average NA shielder build:
21 STR
15 AGI
7 IF
7 PS
5 Athl
5 WM
5 Shield
146 WPF
My character wears average gear with an effective armor weight of 16.3 That makes my modified WPF about 126. Still a little more than what I would need.
With your idea 5 WM would give me 101 WPF at level 30. After weight adjustment that would give me an adjusted WPF of 88. That would give me a significant damage decrease to an already low-damage 1 hander.
And that is using a balanced build with relatively light gear. See the problem?
Someone explain to me again what a "Castor Swing" is :S
I think he's talking about hiltslash. :lol:
To think they only found out about it in NA now after all this time. 8-)
I guess Europe will always be #1.
And we started hiltslashing summer 2010, SO ONCE AGAIN NA IS FAIL. 8-)
Also STR is more beneficial than AGI, so if anything's being crutched it's STR builds.
EU #1.
In summer 2010 all the servers were EU so FAILLL, try Castoring with 180 ping sometime. Strength is better for non-backpedaling whores who actually know how to manual block and chamber. All I ever see in melee on EU servers is s key, swing, s-key, swing over and over again, go to NA its chamber, block, counter-swing, block, swing, etc.eu melee has become boring and covard revarding, na will get it too soon ;D
Strength does not directly modify movement speed or attack speed.
Directly not, but by reducing the weight penalties perhaps?
But you see, the fact that the average build has a 40% (15 to 21) increase of str over agi is the very problem itself. The *average* build should always be a perfect equilibrium of 18/18, or maintain a 16.67% (18 to 21) discrepancy at the very most for specialized characters (example: pure archer builds without power strike). When a difference of greater than 16.67% (let alone 40%) is the average build, it is a clear sign of poor balance.
eu melee has become boring and covard revarding, na will get it too soon ;DIt's been there for quite a while. That's why myself and several others would like to see a fastest speed server of some sort.
Wow. Yeah, you do realize that your attributes have more to do with limiting your skill choices than anything else. There isn't actually a 40% difference between ANY mechanics between a 21/15 build and an 18/18 build.
To illustrate:
Here's a 21/15 shielder build:
Strength: 21
Agility: 15
Hit points: 70
Skills to attributes: 2
Ironflesh: 7
Power Strike: 7
Shield: 5
Athletics: 5
Weapon Master: 5
One Handed: 146
Here's an 18/18 shielder build:
Strength: 18
Agility: 18
Hit points: 65
Skills to attributes: 2
Ironflesh: 6
Power Strike: 6
Shield: 6
Athletics: 6
Weapon Master: 5
One Handed: 146
The difference between HP is roughly 7.2%
WPF is the same.
The difference between damage is 8%
Shield durability 8%.
They are pretty damn close overall. No where near a 40% difference as you claim. You can't take two arbitrary numbers and say there is a 40% difference between them when they themselves have barely any effect on the actual game mechanics. Especially when the original devs decided that skills should be increased when attributes reach multiples of 3. What if they did it in multiples of two?
An average build is just that, average. Good at everything, great at nothing. I do agree that something needs to be done to increase the viability of agi builds, but your WPF idea would really take a lot of the customization out of the game.
You're supposed to compare 21/15 to 15/21, not to 18/18. 18/18 would ideally be the standard. To increase a stat from 15 to 21, you would need to add 40% of that stat to itself. So, 140% of 15 is 21. Now, let us compare 21/15 to 15/21 using your method.
Here's a 21/15 shielder build:
Strength: 21
Agility: 15
Hit points: 70
Skills to attributes: 2
Ironflesh: 7
Power Strike: 7
Shield: 5
Athletics: 5
Weapon Master: 5
One Handed: 146
Here's a 15/21 shielder build:
Strength: 15
Agility: 21
Hit points: 60
Skills to attributes: 2
Ironflesh: 5
Power Strike: 5
Shield: 7
Athletics: 7
Weapon Master: 5
One Handed: 146
Strength gets 16.67% more HP.
Strength gets 16% more damage.
Agility gets 16% more shield durability.
Agility runs slightly faster.
It's quite clear which build is superior, and in turn, understandable why the average build has 40% more strength than agility.
It is time again for teh maths. Again I disagree.No, Balton is definitely right. 70 is 116.67% of 60.
First is hp. It's actually a 14.3% difference. Only 10 hp. Not too much.
Only 10 hp. Not too much. Depending on the armor you are wearing you'd be able to survive 1 to 2 more hits. With the increase in athletics it's much easier to stay out of range. You're more in danger from team hits than hits from the enemy.Much easier to stay out of range is the same as "Much easier to not be in combat", other than this, 2 athletics isn't going to do shit in a 1v1, it's more about weapon length at that point.
Now let's look at damage because this is much more interesting.
Let's say that each build is using a Knightly Arming Sword. It does 32 damage. With 5PS you'd be doing 44.8 damage per swing. With 7PS you'd be doing 49.92 per swing. However, that doesn't take speed bonus into account. With speed bonus you can do ridiculous amounts of damage. Even with 4PS I can 2 hit some people who are wearing medium helmets with head hits. With a good speed bonus you can meet or exceed the damage of the 7ps. Sure, in a straight up fight if each one was swinging at each other the 15 str guy would go down first, but no fight ever works like that.
Another interesting point to consider. Since armor soak values are also percentage based, the attacks of the 7ps guy would get reduced more than the 5ps guy. Again, helping to bridge the gap. Interesting, no?
What I'm really trying to say is that both of those builds are pretty balanced. Anything that's only 3 points off the norm (18/18) in any direction falls under balanced. Builds that start to go outside of that range start to show the differences between str and agi builds. One big reason is the speed bonus itself. I'm pretty sure speed bonus is capped at 100% giving agi builds a limit on that damage modifier. Also, that same damage modifier works against them. Stacking strength does nothing but good things and the scaling gets REALLY ridiculous with high damage weapons. Agi builds start to get worse as athletics is stacked because you can only get so much of a speed bonus and the diminishing returns of WPF damage bonus starts very early.
How should one buff AGI side?Good point overall, but I disagree with this one. I think we are far below game breaking speed levels. I believe currently you get 181 wpf for a 12/27 build. A 12/27 build is already quite inefficient so lets say the max wpf in this game is 181.
More wpf = game breaking speeds. (More bugs and netcode problems) So not that.
In 2010 we had gamebreaking speeds due to wpf levels being over 200, but we should not forget that with every patch since then weapons have been reduced in speed. I remember using a 97 speed Long Hafted Blade (96 base, loomed once) with a 12/27 build with 181 wpf in March or something. The LHB now has a base speed of 92. There are many other weapons that got treated the same. The overall average weapon speed is much lower than in in early 2011 and Native.
Hm, I always saw STR guys as the main "force" along with shielders.That's because of how the builds have to be played to currently be "effective". This concept you have just goes to show how worthless agi builds are.
the AGI guys are for flanking and destroying archers.
Hm, I always saw STR guys as the main "force" along with shielders.
the AGI guys are for flanking and destroying archers.
this.
I made agi shielder as the skip the fun character. 9/30 build (3ps,10shield,10athletics)
Its great fun to play, i rarely top scoreboards but with this char I make it in first battle.
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/69/mb26b.jpg/ (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/69/mb26b.jpg/)
this.Any skilled player is going to be able to get lots of kills in melee, regardless of how good/bad his build is. It's a matter of how much effort you had to exert to get a mere 22:6 K:D in 8 rounds. You're not even averaging three kills a round, but sure... it was your first time even using the build so that's supposed to say a lot right? I've had some pretty shitty builds, including ones where my melee wpf is just left at "1" and I still had maps where I got a ton of kills. Like Balbaroth said, there are a lot of factors that are involved in battle, some of which you can completely avoid(at least for a little while) like plate armor enemies and others you can completely capitalize on, like picking on ranged.
I made agi shielder as the skip the fun character. 9/30 build (3ps,10shield,10athletics)
Its great fun to play, i rarely top scoreboards but with this char I make it in first battle.
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/69/mb26b.jpg/ (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/69/mb26b.jpg/)
The point is not that agility or strength builts are superior over the other, but that both simply have their advantages.
Ok, what do you understand under an agi-built.
The advantage of better movement speed (and within mobility in battle, better footwork, better "choose were to fight", etc.) outweighs things like more hp, more damage and higher armour.
the biggest disadvantage of strength builds is that they are horribly, horribly boring.
the biggest disadvantage of strength builds is that they are horribly, horribly boring.
Ok, what do you understand under an agi-built. If you mean something like 3/36 or 6/33 then in my opinion its good that str builds are superior to agi builts. An extreme agi built should be able to run and move extreme fast, but if it had any other advantages it would be horrible.I think the point eludes you.
And want i meant was that a str-built is not superior over an built like 18/24 or 15/24. The advantage of better movement speed (and within mobility in battle, better footwork, better "choose were to fight", etc.) outweighs things like more hp, more damage and higher armour.
I still think strength-builds are not that superior, but I can't proof it. :|Unfortunately in the world of game balance "feelings" and "thoughts" are meaningless without a logical backing.
Of course. But stating mere thoughts or feelings can be very useful as well for example to initiate other direction of the discussion.Possible because agi builds got over nerfed way back when. Lot of str stackers whined and poof agi became a useless stat suitable for archers, horseman and other lesser classes. (remember bonus to weapon speed for agility?)
Honestly, I'm a bit too lazy to back up my opinon but it roughly comes down to two points:
1. I'm done with playing strength-builds so it won't bother me if they get nerfed or what.
2. Like I said the value of athletics is underestimated by you guys. In the hands of the right players it has equal advantages as strength build, IMO. Problem, how to measure the value of athletics that i mean? Perhaps Urist can come up with some useful stats?
--> go on, try a proposed change, but I fear if its not very very subtle agi-builds soon get far superior.
THERE WAS NEVER BONUS WEAPON SPEED FROM AGI.I KNOW! I TRIED TO SAY SO! (although it was in M&B 1 if I remember correctly.)
THERE WAS NEVER BONUS WEAPON SPEED FROM AGI.
DON'T WORRY EVERYONE WILL FORGET THIS IN A FEW DAYS!WTF YOU TALKING ABOUT!?!?!?
THERE WAS NEVER BONUS WEAPON SPEED FROM AGI.Do you mean in cRPG, cause there was in some Mount & Blade. I clearly remember when hovering the cursor over the agility attribute it said 8% swing speed increase, or was it 6% and is 8% the damage increase from Powerstrike? I think it was 6%. Maybe this was only in the old Mount&Blade that I actively played singeplayer.
As soon as agi build wears enough armour to offer protection from arrows and horse bumps (and FF) they get slower, effectively nullifying the benefits of agility!I stumbled upon this from Waltf4:
Because you are daft.uh, I'm flattered.
I saw that as well.. like 18 months ago. Regardless, if it was flatline you may have a point, as it is I question your ability to read a chart.you care to elaborate? You said with high armour the effect of athletics would be effectively nulllified. When i look at this chart it says me that the effect is not so great as with low weight but there is still a significant difference between low and high ath even with higher weight. What am I reading wrong?
Ok, there was a swing speed increase in Mount&Blade version 0.2x(called Warrider). They took it out at least starting from 0.808 but then forgot to change the Tooltip. But it has never been in Warband or even cRPG.Maybe devs add stuff to the wiki? If it was kept updated I would quote that everytime I was gonna talk about game mechanics. Maybe add in some formulas and stuff? Would be nice to get the exact formulas from the devs so we know for sure that they are right.
There are too many people on this forum making shit up. It's not even funny anymore. For information that has at least a small chance to be not utter crap I suggest to use some kind of whitelist with devs and maybe Waltf4 on it. Disregard stuff posted by the rest.
^^I think he is talking about Warband.I'd talk about 'sprint mode', what Urist is talking about in this (http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,5908.msg98594.html#msg98594) post, but due to the fact that TaleWorlds removed the beta thread section of their forums, his link is essentially broken and I don't remember exactly how it worked. Essentially though the point I was going to bring up with it, is that athletics doesn't really increase your max speed, it focuses more on increasing acceleration.
I stumbled upon this from Waltf4:
The following plot shows the run times for characters with different combinations of agility, athletics, and weight.Doesn't look like nullifiying to me.(click to show/hide)
I'd talk about 'sprint mode', what Urist is talking about in this (http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,5908.msg98594.html#msg98594) post, but due to the fact that TaleWorlds removed the beta thread section of their forums, his link is essentially broken and I don't remember exactly how it worked. Essentially though the point I was going to bring up with it, is that athletics doesn't really increase your max speed, it focuses more on increasing acceleration.^that would be very interesting to me to say the least
The problem I have with that graph, is that it's not focusing on situations where athletics would really matter in this discussion and athletics doesn't increase your maximum speed, at least I am quite sure it doesn't. So a long duration trial is rather pointless for this discussion. The graph shows a static velocity, rather than the acceleration. I'd rather see a graph showing distance traveled for a 2 second trial or time taken to move only a couple of meters. Such a graph would hold far more weight in this conversation than that one does.
I'd talk about 'sprint mode', what Urist is talking about in this (http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,5908.msg98594.html#msg98594) post, but due to the fact that TaleWorlds removed the beta thread section of their forums, his link is essentially broken and I don't remember exactly how it worked. Essentially though the point I was going to bring up with it, is that athletics doesn't really increase your max speed, it focuses more on increasing acceleration.yeah, it would good to have some data thats more relevant in close and group combat. The 'sprint mode' though only kicks in after a few seconds of no other action (block, ready attack) than running if i remember correctly. So this only important for full retreat.
The problem I have with that graph, is that it's not focusing on situations where athletics would really matter in this discussion and athletics doesn't increase your maximum speed, at least I am quite sure it doesn't. So a long duration trial is rather pointless for this discussion. The graph shows a static velocity, rather than the acceleration. I'd rather see a graph showing distance traveled for a 2 second trial or time taken to move only a couple of meters. Such a graph would hold far more weight in this conversation than that one does.
yeah, it would good to have some data thats more relevant in close and group combat. The 'sprint mode' though only kicks in after a few seconds of no other action (block, ready attack) than running if i remember correctly. So this only important for full retreat.ya but three seconds is usually enough for them to get you before you escape lol i know ive failed trying to run away from mobs.unless im in a advantageous position,they made an error or just dum luck its a pain to escape within striking range of the enemy
THERE WAS NEVER BONUS WEAPON SPEED FROM AGI.
Is there anything you get from just raising AGI? Run speed increase?There should definitely be something.
According to Wiki:
Agility
-Passive bonus: faster movement speed
If I remember correctly, there was some guy who did some testing (I think his nick is Walt) his tests showed that one agility point increases movement speed for about 1,5%, but as I said I 'm not sure about it, especially about percentage.