End this STR madness

[Balton]

I don't like Vibe's suggestion, because it would eliminate all reason to wear anything below mail, even with a 27/12 9IF 9PS build.


Rustyspoon, what you are stating as the disadvantage to my proposed change, is actually the whole idea behind it.

You see, it would serve to severely balance out the bonus gained from heavy armor pertaining to agi vs str builds. Right now, wearing heavy armor as a str build clearly has a significantly large advantage over heavy armor on an agi build. With my change, you could still go str heavy, but you would incur massive penalties, just like going agi heavy is right now.

Basically, it would make a 12/27 the same, in terms of effectiveness, as a 27/12. As things stand now, a 27/12 is the most powerful inf build in the game, however, a 12/27 is a complete joke.

[Vibe]

I don't like Vibe's suggestion, because it would eliminate all reason to wear anything below mail, even with a 27/12 9IF 9PS build.


Rustyspoon, what you are stating as the disadvantage to my proposed change, is actually the whole idea behind it.

You see, it would serve to severely balance out the bonus gained from heavy armor pertaining to agi vs str builds. Right now, wearing heavy armor as a str build clearly has a significantly large advantage over heavy armor on an agi build. With my change, you could still go str heavy, but you would incur massive penalties, just like going agi heavy is right now.

Basically, it would make a 12/27 the same, in terms of effectiveness, as a 27/12. As things stand now, a 27/12 is the most powerful inf build in the game, however, a 12/27 is a complete joke.

Can't agree more with your suggestion, I think fixed 5 wpp per wpf is brilliant. As for mine, I guess it would have to be tweaked a bit, it was pointing more at the speed of tincans rather than wpf reduction anyway.

[Jarlek]

Totally crazy idea out of the blue.

Change Weapon Master to WeaponS Master:
WM gives you 10 "base" wpf in each weapon category. To get over the what you gain directly from WM you would still have to give wpf in it. If you invest less wpf than what you gained, you would just get the minimum instead, they don't add to each other.

Example:
You do a skip the fun and have 18 agi and 6 WM.
You get 580 wpp, enough wpf to make a single weapon group 154 wpf.
Your "base" wpf from WM is 10*6=60 wpf.

Build 1: You spend all wpp in 2h, ending with 154 wpf.
This means everything else will have 60 wpf. Not enough to be good with them, but makes you able to use them if out of options.
You look like this:

(click to show/hide)

Weapon Master: 6
One Handed: 60
Two Handed: 154
Polearm: 60
Archery: 60
Crossbow: 60
Throwing: 60

Build 2:
You get 100 in three different weapon classes because you like shielding with 1h, spear and throwing.
You'll end up like this:

(click to show/hide)

Weapon Master: 6
One Handed: 100
Two Handed: 60
Polearm: 100
Archery: 60
Crossbow: 60
Throwing: 100

Build 3: You are an idiot and get 145 wpf in one and rest (70) in another, failing to realize that it is not added to the "base" gained from WM and you just wasted a lot of wpf to go from 60 to 70.
You'll look like this:

(click to show/hide)

Weapon Master: 6
One Handed: 145
Two Handed: 70
Polearm: 60
Archery: 60
Crossbow: 60
Throwing: 60

This wouldn't really buff hybrids, at least not most of them, but it would give everyone some skill with all weapons.

I'm kinda unsure about including ranged with this, especially crossbow. But another suggestion I've made is making 1 wpf crossbow take AGES to reload (think 30+ secounds) 50-99 wpf crossbow be slow, but still usable (think 10 secounds) and 100 wpf the speed we have on crossbows now. Leave wpf above that to be the same as it was before (120 wpf now is same as 120 wpf then, 140 now is same as 140 then).

Waddya think? Discuss, whine, cry, have butsex!

[rustyspoon]

I don't like Vibe's suggestion, because it would eliminate all reason to wear anything below mail, even with a 27/12 9IF 9PS build.


Rustyspoon, what you are stating as the disadvantage to my proposed change, is actually the whole idea behind it.

You see, it would serve to severely balance out the bonus gained from heavy armor pertaining to agi vs str builds. Right now, wearing heavy armor as a str build clearly has a significantly large advantage over heavy armor on an agi build. With my change, you could still go str heavy, but you would incur massive penalties, just like going agi heavy is right now.

Basically, it would make a 12/27 the same, in terms of effectiveness, as a 27/12. As things stand now, a 27/12 is the most powerful inf build in the game, however, a 12/27 is a complete joke.

I get what you're saying, but you're missing my point that it would incur massive penalties to people who have relatively balanced builds.

For example, this is the average NA shielder build:

21 STR
15 AGI

7 IF
7 PS

5 Athl
5 WM
5 Shield

146 WPF

My character wears average gear with an effective armor weight of 16.3 That makes my modified WPF about 126. Still a little more than what I would need.

With your idea 5 WM would give me  101 WPF at level 30. After weight adjustment that would give me an adjusted WPF of 88. That would give me a significant damage decrease to an already low-damage 1 hander.

And that is using a balanced build with relatively light gear. See the problem?

[hippy_with_a_scimi]

Are you some kind of SCI-FI writer? Just because someone has high STR does not make him a superman. The reality is usually opposite of what you wrote: STR guy gets polestunned two times by the AGI polearm user(by the time he gets out of the stun, another swing is coming his way) and gets finished off by a 2h overhead from another guy. Whereas in the same scene the AGI player runs back and forth trough the crowd making them TK each other and finishes them off 1 by 1 with spin hits. This is my experience from day to day fighting on the siege servers. I tell you what, come with your STR char to eu siege servers and see how you do.

you should see Allers in NA , hes a pure pure STR char ( has like 12 or 13 PS )  and he has no trouble with agi chars , we miss a block and whack we are dead , hes pretty hilarious with the 2h wooden sword diguised as a peasant  , you are like ohh a easy encounter... wrong !

 when hes in full plate , unless hes ganged up on , hes very tuff to beat ,

 tho i should mention he rarely play serious ! ( at least when hes in my team )

[Spa_geh_tea]

Clarification, I never said don't buff agi. I said if you are going to improve on it decrease the speed of the game overall in order to lower ping effects on the game. Essentially high wpf char will swing as fast as they do now, and everyone else gets slower. There is a point in swing speed where it becomes stupid fast, accomplished in previous crpg builds. When achieved  the game can no longer keep up from one gamer to another due to lag of server, connection, and graphics. Crpg is meant for 200 person battles and should continue to improve the gameply on such a player base.

[hippy_with_a_scimi]

Clarification, I never said don't buff agi. I said if you are going to improve on it decrease the speed of the game overall in order to lower ping effects on the game. Essentially high wpf char will swing as fast as they do now, and everyone else gets slower. There is a point in swing speed where it becomes stupid fast, accomplished in previous crpg builds. When achieved  the game can no longer keep up from one gamer to another due to lag of server, connection, and graphics. Crpg is meant for 200 person battles and should continue to improve the gameply on such a player base.

Sadly Spag CRPG(Warband in general) was not coded to handle 200 persons , serverside lag like hell, when they started DTV , we could only had like 10 persons in server or it would create monstrous lag due to the amount of npcs , 120 is probably the top without having too much side effects

[Vibe]

3. I am speaking from my experience - come to EU Siege servers and try your STR builds, than come back here and tell us all about it.

LMFAO challenge accepted. Went to EU siege like you wanted.


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70+ ping, lvl 28 - 28/9 build, no looms.

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Mind you there was no real effort involved in getting that score. I did not chase easy kills, i just rushed right into enemy pack and swinged. A lot of time people just bounced the fuck off my unloomed rus scale and it only took them ONE mistake for me to chop them in half in one swing. 2 swings for heavy armor, 1 swing for light and they were dead. And to kill me it took several NONGLANCING hits due to my high HP.

Just so fucking easy.

[MrShine]

1. I have heard that PS becomes less effective after a certain point once there is no speed to back up the swing
2. Without footwork speed you are doomed to be kick-stunned many times
3. I am speaking from my experience - come to EU Siege servers and try your STR builds, than come back here and tell us all about it.

It's not nearly as dire as you make it sound, you can get by just fine w/ footwork and 0-4 athletics.  If anything having high athletics allows you to 'crutch' footwork a bit since you have more room to correct mistakes, but you aren't going to be much more susceptible to kicks.

Speed bonus is nice, but I don't think it has the same effect you make it appear to have (although it does play a role).  I'd be willing to put money down that someone with 10-12 PS and 0 athletics will consistently deal more damage to people than someone with 5-8+ athletics who are counting on speed bonus.  You also have to remember that speed bonus is a double-edged sword.  If a quick agi player is chasing a str char, and the str player turns around and connects with the agi dude cruising along, he's going to be toast.

Allers didn't seem to have problems racking up kills when I saw him play in strat this last round.  The trick is not letting yourself get kited by a high agi player.  Let them come to you and they are doomed.  If they don't want to come to you... there are always other people to kill


E: Pictures above ftw

[hippy_with_a_scimi]

1. I have heard that PS becomes less effective after a certain point once there is no speed to back up the swing
2. Without footwork speed you are doomed to be kick-stunned many times3. I am speaking from my experience - come to EU Siege servers and try your STR builds, than come back here and tell us all about it.

Funny you mention this Allers favorite hobby is kicking ,  ask SaulCanner how much he loves Allers when he kicks

[Vodner]

Funny you mention this Allers favorite hobby is kicking ,  ask SaulCanner how much he loves Allers when he kicks

Yeah, Allers is really fantastic at timing kicks. It makes engaging him with a 1h really tricky.

[Jarlek]

@Vibe: Y U GOT BETTER PING IN EU THAN ME!?!?!??!

But seriously, how can people say that STR is not OP compared to agility? Yeah, a lot of the faults of a PURE STR build, such as slowness and the like, are all easily negated by just getting 6 or 9 AGI. Just like Vibe did. Also, yeah. That's EU 2 right xD I find it HARD to get a negatie KD there, even with my main at lvl 15 currently. (got 4:3 as lvl 4, Booyah!)

[Vibe]

But seriously, how can people say that STR is not OP compared to agility?

cuz dey dum fuks

[Thucydides]

Bringing up Allers as an argument for STR being op is like bringing up Hippy_with_a_scimi as an argument for the scimi being op. Just saying

[hippy_with_a_scimi]

Bringing up Allers as an argument for STR being op is like bringing up Hippy_with_a_scimi as an argument for the scimi being op. Just saying

My spammy has been the source of frustration of so much people i wouldnt be surprised if i didnt helped nerf it in its current sad state

depend ! The funny Arrers , or the serious Allers