End this STR madness

[Tydeus]

I like how the general consensus here is that str builds are bad for duels, except all you need to be perfectly fine, is a little patience. Patience and you'll have the edge over your opponent, especially if you've also stacked more armor than them. Str is clearly the better stat for all around effectiveness. The only advantages to agi that I see, are for hunting ranged in battle servers. I've had everything from 30/9 to 12/27 and most everything, I've done more than once.

Currently I have a 15/24 build and the only thing I've been able to accomplish better than when I use heavier str builds, is my ability to both hunt down ranged and forsake patience in a duel against someone with a longer ranged weapon. That's not exactly a long list for the incredible amount of advantages I could name for when I use, say, a 24/15 build with a bec. Tons of damage, decent speed with 5 athletics, Lots of survivability with IF, fighting multiple opponents becomes easier due to your ability to do twice as much damage to people(fighting multiple people often becomes a battle against time as you're mostly back pedaling and they're running forward, or if you aren't back pedaling you're weaving between opponents and that always makes you susceptible to getting hit, which you can't really afford to do with 0-low IF athletics builds).

Oh and lets not forget to mention a new added benefit, or dare I say necessity. For Strategus you'll obviously not want your commanders to die as they're your spawn points and they can make all the difference in the world(Just look at battlefield games). Why risk having a commander with low HP (Especially when you have passive hp regen) when you can have guys in heavy armor and str builds as your commanders and ensure a few less deaths for them, or allow them to play a little riskier than they otherwise could.

[Vibe]

I like how the general consensus here is that str builds are bad for duels, except all you need to be perfectly fine, is a little patience. Patience and you'll have the edge over your opponent, especially if you've also stacked more armor than them. Str is clearly the better stat for all around effectiveness. The only advantages to agi that I see, are for hunting ranged in battle servers. I've had everything from 30/9 to 12/27 and most everything, I've done more than once.

Currently I have a 15/24 build and the only thing I've been able to accomplish better than when I use heavier str builds, is my ability to both hunt down ranged and forsake patience in a duel against someone with a longer ranged weapon. That's not exactly a long list for the incredible amount of advantages I could name for when I use, say, a 24/15 build with a bec. Tons of damage, decent speed with 5 athletics, Lots of survivability with IF, fighting multiple opponents becomes easier due to your ability to do twice as much damage to people(fighting multiple people often becomes a battle against time as you're mostly back pedaling and they're running forward, or if you aren't back pedaling you're weaving between opponents and that always makes you susceptible to getting hit, which you can't really afford to do with 0-low IF athletics builds).

Oh and lets not forget to mention a new added benefit, or dare I say necessity. For Strategus you'll obviously not want your commanders to die as they're your spawn points and they can make all the difference in the world(Just look at battlefield games). Why risk having a commander with low HP (Especially when you have passive hp regen) when you can have guys in heavy armor and str builds as your commanders and ensure a few less deaths for them, or allow them to play a little riskier than they otherwise could.

word

[Balton]

Seriously, a linear wpp requirement per wpf would fix everything. 5 wpp per 1wpf point.

In such a scenario, this would be the case:
A lvl 30 with 0WM would have a max of 51 wpf in a single weapon type
A lvl 30 with 5WM would have 101
A lvl 30 with 8WM would have 155, which would be the soft cap. Seeing as anything over 8WM requires completely sacrificing PS to the point where most of your hits will whiff on anyone who is wearing more than cloth.

The current case:
At lvl 30 with 0WM you can get 111wpf in a single prof, versus 146wpf with 5WM, or 172wpf with 8WM.

61 points of WPF are not much (0WM vs 8WM atm), but 104 are (0WM vs 8WM with the new system). The change would be a major incentive to make agility builds not just for athletics (or riding if you're cav), but for WM as well. As it currently stands, the only people who get WM are those who are new, and ranged.

[rustyspoon]

Seriously, a linear wpp requirement per wpf would fix everything. 5 wpp per 1wpf point.

In such a scenario, this would be the case:
A lvl 30 with 0WM would have a max of 51 wpf in a single weapon type
A lvl 30 with 5WM would have 101
A lvl 30 with 8WM would have 155, which would be the soft cap. Seeing as anything over 8WM requires completely sacrificing PS to the point where most of your hits will whiff on anyone who is wearing more than cloth.

The current case:
At lvl 30 with 0WM you can get 111wpf in a single prof, versus 146wpf with 5WM, or 172wpf with 8WM.

61 points of WPF are not much (0WM vs 8WM atm), but 104 are (0WM vs 8WM with the new system). The change would be a major incentive to make agility builds not just for athletics (or riding if you're cav), but for WM as well. As it currently stands, the only people who get WM are those who are new, and ranged.

The thing I don't like about this is that it would force everyone to get at least 18 agi. After armor reduction you NEED 100 WPF for your weapon stats to perform as listed. It would kill a lot of diversity in builds.

All of my builds are pretty damn balanced and this change would piss me off.

I think an easier fix would just be to give a harsher speed penalty to people wearing heavy armor.

[Vibe]

I think an easier fix would just be to give a harsher speed penalty to people wearing heavy armor.

But this would hurt agi too... Unless agi builds had reduced penalties for wearing armor. For example 18 agi -> reduced speed and wpf penalty for wearing armor of total <18 weight.

[rustyspoon]

But this would hurt agi too... Unless agi builds had reduced penalties for wearing armor. For example 18 agi -> reduced speed and wpf penalty for wearing armor of total <18 weight.

It's pretty rare for an agi build to be wearing plate though. Regardless, they would still run a HELL of a lot faster in plate then someone with 1,2, or 3 agi in plate.

[Vibe]

It's pretty rare for an agi build to be wearing plate though. Regardless, they would still run a HELL of a lot faster in plate then someone with 1,2, or 3 agi in plate.

Exactly, my point is this:

Let's say an agi char uses good armor.
A char with 18 agi and 25 total weight would have reduced penalty for those 18 weight (that he has in agi) and would further be fully penalized for the additional 7 weight.
A char with 9 agi and 25 total weight would have reduced penalty for 9 weight and would further be fully penalized for additional 14 weight.

If they use medium armor, lets say 16 total weight:
A char with 18 agi will have only reduced penalty, whereas a char with 9 agi would have 9 weight reduced penalty and 7 weight full penalty.

[Herkkutatti]

"What I propose is to:
- stop 1hp per STR point after 15 (or 18) STR has been reached"
then nerf archery!!!

[Tydeus]

That's not exactly a long list for the incredible amount of advantages I could name for when I use, say, a 24/15 build with a bec.

I can't believe I forgot this MAJOR one: Str builds having higher HP gain more out of high armor, it's more effective for them and because of weight, among other things, you end up with agi builds preferring light/medium armor and str builds preferring heavy/plate armor. The thing I want to point out here that is the cause of a lot of frustration in many games, including warband, is friendly fire. Plate/heavy armor can sometimes completely null any damage from allies, including horse bumps, but with light armor, you get absolutely reamed. By far the most irritating thing in any multi-player game for me, is when my own team is the direct cause of my death.

[Teeth]

Flatten the wpf curve. Let anything under 18 agi get less wpf than they now have and above 18 agi get more than they now have.

[Uumdi]

Yeah, weaponmaster needs some love.  Right now, 9 IF / 9 PS / 4 ath is such a disgustingly powerful infantry build - a build intended on being a weapon master, one who masters his weapon. 

Weaponmaster makes sense as a master of all/multiple weapon types, like a musician who can pick up and learn any instrument.   However, with slots as they are (which are perfect in the sense of balance, thats not my concern) here's a huge build balance pitfall -  If you want to use ranged and melee with a balanced build, your choices are:

Archery           - Uses 6 skill points and relies on WPF Heavily
Throwing        - Uses 6 skill points and relies on WPF Moderately
Crossbow       - Uses 0 skill points and relies on WPF for repair cost more than actual aim

Crossbows are awesome tools, and shouldn't take up valuable skill points because they're invented specifically to be aimed and fired, and the completely fair balancing factor is the reload time.  When slots were introduced, they really balanced out the use of ridiculous hybrid builds.  As it stands now though, they not only have to pump 6 Power Draw, but they also have to pump 6 Weaponmaster.  I understand being 6 points behind a pure build, but 12 is a pretty huge hit.  There shouldn't be a WPF requirement on effective powerstrike either, because you can swing a weapon all god damn day, skilled or not.

Hybrid builds are fine, I'm not trying to shower them with love.  Maybe I'm RPing too hard here, but shouldn't dedicated melee have an incentive for Weaponmaster as well?  It took me 4 gens of being stubborn and ignorant before discovering how gross and incredible 8+ Ironflesh is.  The only thing stopping me from pulling out a crossbow is the fact my weapon's unsheathable too.  I think preventing pocket flamberges, pikes, and huscarls was enough of a balance on hybrids when the slot system came out, and back then there was no WPF requirement for Effective Power Draw/Throw, if I remember right.  I certainly don't miss 30/9 archers with pierce damage, but right now, Weaponmaster is strictly a giant skill sink to meet ranged requirements.
_____________________________________

Kind of afraid of 12/27 katana builds with 220 WPF if we keep lobbying like this... hahaha.  Listen to these guys - limit "innate" WPF a little bit.  Maybe rework how HP is calculated / make heavier armor more attractive and useful to agi builds.  People forget they can wear brigandine + light plate on an agi build, or it eliminates the point of agi entirely.

[Spa_geh_tea]

If your going to increase the wpf attainable or wpf effectiveness in general, then you absolutly positivley without question lower the swing speed of all weapons drastically. Or we will once again have agi stackers swining weapons so fast that you cant even see the attack nor block it due to latency differences, or they can outswing the block animations.

I never ever ever ever ever ever want crpg to go back down that road again. It makes the game stupid and not player skill based, with no teamwork. Slower weapons across the board and everyone going str with lower wpf has forced more teamwork then anything else simply because weapons move slow enough for a good player to block easily. But you can't.block in two directions at once......so teamwork is born.

[MrShine]

Each point in strength gives +1 hp.

Make it so each point in agility gives +5 weapon points that you can use to bolster wpf.  That way if you have 18 agi you get 75 more weapon points (like 7-10 total wpf, more for hybrids). 

It could at least allow agi builds to gain something more from putting a point into agi. 

Would need to be looked at for ranged though since this would directly buff archers/xbowmen slightly.

[Spa_geh_tea]

Again and I can't stress this enough.....

If your going to increase the wpf attainable or wpf effectiveness in general, then you absolutly positivley without question lower the swing speed of all weapons drastically. Or we will once again have agi stackers swining weapons so fast that you cant even see the attack nor block it due to latency differences, or they can outswing the block animations.

I never ever ever ever ever ever want crpg to go back down that road again. It makes the game stupid and not player skill based, with no teamwork. Slower weapons across the board and everyone going str with lower wpf has forced more teamwork then anything else simply because weapons move slow enough for a good player to block easily. But you can't.block in two directions at once......so teamwork is born.

[Tydeus]

If your going to increase the wpf attainable or wpf effectiveness in general, then you absolutly positivley without question lower the swing speed of all weapons drastically. Or we will once again have agi stackers swining weapons so fast that you cant even see the attack nor block it due to latency differences, or they can outswing the block animations.

I never ever ever ever ever ever want crpg to go back down that road again. It makes the game stupid and not player skill based, with no teamwork. Slower weapons across the board and everyone going str with lower wpf has forced more teamwork then anything else simply because weapons move slow enough for a good player to block easily. But you can't.block in two directions at once......so teamwork is born.

And it's made duels ridiculously boring for top tier duelists. The simple fact that there will never be a fastest speed crpg server just adds to that problem. 200 wpf wouldn't be so fast that someone couldn't counter attack anyway, it was only the people who had retired several times and had gotten a huge amount of wpf that were the issue there. As far as Weapon Master and wpf goes, I'd rather see WM buffed than passive wpp nerfed. If melee gets any slower you're just going to turn off a huge portion of this player base because of it.

As far as what you call teamwork and player skill, following a tin can around with a pike may count as teamwork, but there's zero fucking skill involved in that, and that's what pub server teamwork amounts to right now.

Edit: A second note on player skill. Fastest speed native servers take far more skill than anything else that can be found in Warband.