End this STR madness

[Spa_geh_tea]

So, you want the game to be a battle of latency? Right now the difference between 20 and 70 ms is almost negligable. If anything we should endorse and improve on that so eu to na battles are more even on a internet base. Also duels have become even more challenging since players now use chambers and delay swing more than ever before. Two things that were barely noticed nor used, so I cpmpletly disagree with your statements about duels.

As for your whine about the pikemen, the clear solution is to kill the weaker player first. Ie the pikemen, and no not all teamwork is just a pikemen. Any two players attack together with different directions and landing the hits will beat a skilled player. I find that to be balancing and enforecing teamwork.

[Tydeus]

So, you want the game to be a battle of latency? Right now the difference between 20 and 70 ms is almost negligable. If anything we should endorse and improve on that so eu to na battles are more even on a internet base. Also duels have become even more challenging since players now use chambers and delay swing more than ever before. Two things that were barely noticed nor used, so I cpmpletly disagree with your statements about duels.

As for your whine about the pikemen, the clear solution is to kill the weaker player first. Ie the pikemen, and no not all teamwork is just a pikemen. Any two players attack together with different directions and landing the hits will beat a skilled player. I find that to be balancing and enforecing teamwork.

Alright you're just speaking nonsense at this point. Just because melee becomes faster doesn't mean it's going to all of the sudden break melee, there's a threshold for that. Think for a second about how long it takes a swing to go through from start to finish now, and then add 50 wpf to that, unless you have a slow reaction time or 100+ ping, you'll be fine. Remember 100 ping is .1 second delay.

Check out WaltF4's numbers on thrust duration here: http://forum.c-rpg.net/index.php/topic,2531.0.html

200 wpf won't throw us over that edge, regardless of what you think.

You need to play some Fastest Speed Native servers, because you're spewing your stupidity left and right. If what you're saying is true about chambers and holds, then when I duel people in native I shouldn't be see them using such things, but I see it in every single fight. Go get some experience, then come back to this thread.

What does any of that pikeman shit you just spewed out have to do with this conversation? "any two players attack together with different directions and landing the hits will beat a skilled player." Yeah dude, that's called common fucking sense, just because you give or take speed from people, doesn't give them any less reason to simply play smart.

[Spa_geh_tea]

First of all, you brought up pikemen. So don't get upset when your wrong. Second, fastest is easier since it is matter of click spams. The footwork and mind games that make duels more interesting goes away the faster players can attack and recover. Third, why would you want to create a false advantage because someone is located farther from the server? That is fairly elitist in my opinion. Lastley look at the current ingame speeds of weapons like, longsword, pick, warspear, awlpike, in the hands of someone with 147 wpf and tell me that they are not borderline too fast for the player on the otherside to pick up on their screen. Don't forget to include server lag on top of all this.

[Relit]

... As far as what you call teamwork and player skill, following a tin can around with a pike may count as teamwork, but there's zero fucking skill involved in that, and that's what pub server teamwork amounts to right now.

Im just going to comment on this part. There is no reason to insult a entire play style just to get your point across. Secondly, it is rather hard to pike for teammates who are unused to it; team wounding abounds. It takes a lot of practice and trust to get good at it, so do not go around disparaging it just because you dislike it.

[Uumdi]

Yeah, long weapons can be really awkward, and it takes a great deal of awareness and timing.  2v1, you're F'ed, and I suppose one should be.  It's frustrating to go up against, and obnoxious as hell when you let your guard down for a second in a large melee, but it takes skill.  A pikeman has to watch straight ahead and all his flanks just like anyone else, and if somebody gets within half his weapon range, he's unable to do much.  I'm just thankful we can't overhead through teammates anymore.  That took loads and loads of skill, right? haha. 

Skill is kind of ambiguous.  I have those days where I get mad at vidya games, and think or say stuff like "i'm dying to people I shouldn't lose to."  Thankfully, I'm also aware that I'm a pretentious asshole, a sloppy blocker, and that they killed me fair and square in said video game.  Besides, a pike isn't that hard to spot in a crowd, its a massive 9 foot long pole.

[Vodner]

Second, fastest is easier since it is matter of click spams. The footwork and mind games that make duels more interesting goes away the faster players can attack and recover.

I've played an enormous amount of both fastest and medium speed duels. I find fastest more challenging.

Medium speed duels often devolve into 'whoever gets bored first loses'. Often times, both players are capable of blocking feinted attacks almost indefinitely. Non-thrust chambers are blockable most of the time, and are easily discouraged with holds and overhead/thrust-to-side feints.

I don't really have a problem with medium speed outside of duel, since 1v1 engagements are best avoided in battle (you're far better off running around stabbing people unaware of you).

[Vingnir the Wanderer]

STR builds with low WPF are way too viable at the moment. Something needs to be done with either agi or str builds.
STR builds with loomed armor are even worse.

Let's think on that.

STR builds get:
+ more hp
+ more damage
- lower run speed
o less WPF, but not that it matters anyway

AGI builds get:
+ higher run speed
- less hp
- less damage
o more WPF, but not that it matters anyway

/signed

I've been talking about this with my guild mates, pretty much everyone agrees, it IS unbalanced, and should be changed.

The biggest thing?   STR should not give hitpoints.

Need to make it no additional hp for str.

Also, the iron flesh, should not be capped based on total STR. It may need to be capped, but defenitely not capped on STR...

The fact you get a hp per strength, and the IR cap is based on STR. are the factors unbalancing the STR attribute.


I think messing with penalizing wpf under 100 is a bad idea - Better to make it easier to get more points over 110, (less cost per point - rather, less steep curve on point cost)

- Penalizing wpf will just make the stat even less effective per-point, and will really hurt those unintended, -  like hybrids...

[Thucydides]

sorry tydeus, but CRPG was made for normal people, not warband pros. The slowness of CRPG helps new players get into warband, and helps them learn far quicker than native. Duels may be boring, but CRPG isn't about duels, its about the other game modes. Once you can have 1 minute+ duels with other players, you ought to work on your battle/ seige skill more.

Learning curve for crpg is less steep than native because of the slowness, it lets people get used to blocking and the proper mechanisms of melee combat rather than stupid native where you pretty much pick up a sword and board and hide from range.

[Tydeus]

First of all, you brought up pikemen. So don't get upset when your wrong. Second, fastest is easier since it is matter of click spams. The footwork and mind games that make duels more interesting goes away the faster players can attack and recover. Third, why would you want to create a false advantage because someone is located farther from the server? That is fairly elitist in my opinion. Lastley look at the current ingame speeds of weapons like, longsword, pick, warspear, awlpike, in the hands of someone with 147 wpf and tell me that they are not borderline too fast for the player on the otherside to pick up on their screen. Don't forget to include server lag on top of all this.

I asked you what the shit YOU said about pikemen had to do with it, you practically told me "pikemen poke people" you may have used a word I used in my post, but you in no way made a point with any relevance to this conversation.

I'm beginning to think you're trolling this thread. "fastest is... [a] matter of click spams." You've got to seriously have some grudge here to not realize the blatantly-fucking-obvious, right in front of you. If it's faster, you have to react faster as well, if your window of opportunity for blocking an attack shrinks from 500 ms to 300ms, that's still longer than the average human reaction time, I see no place where swings could be "impossible" in this scenario. So if you're still able to actually block, then that means you have less time to think about anything and you have to be better at all of the skills to pull them off, meaning the ones who benefit are the best players, because of intuition. It creates more of a skill curve, because it takes more skill. If you still argue this point, I'm probably just going to have to mute you and I'll be forced to think that you are a complete idiot for all eternity because out of everything I've stated, its easily the most irrefutable statement.

Trying to create a false advantage? Listen kid, the world wasn't created equal and there are several things that could be done to warband to make it playable at higher pings, but they aren't done. Why? Because then even more people would suffer from a worse gaming experience. More players have low pings than those that are always forced to play with a high ping. Are you really so naive as to think that everyone's gaming experience can be equally enjoyable?

I'm beginning to think you simply have an extremely low reaction time, those weapons are aren't even fast, both in the sense that there are several weapons which are numerically faster, and in the sense that I have no trouble blocking them. You'd be better off bringing up daggers and knives at 110+ speed and asking how easy they are to block-oh wait, they're still easily blockable, just don't try to spam click them down like you do everything else, and you'll be fine.


As far as pikemen actually taking skill goes, a pike/long spear user has enough range than he can stand surrounded by 10 allies and be brutally effective without the fear of anyone being able to do anything to him in melee(Because there are so many other people around, not like a 2v2). I've played the role, I know exactly how much "skill" it takes. Hell, I used to have a MW Long Spear, two actually, simultaneously even. And indeed, it takes just as much awareness as anything else, except that you pretty much get invulnerability at the start of large mob fights.

sorry tydeus, but CRPG was made for normal people, not warband pros. The slowness of CRPG helps new players get into warband, and helps them learn far quicker than native. Duels may be boring, but CRPG isn't about duels, its about the other game modes. Once you can have 1 minute+ duels with other players, you ought to work on your battle/ seige skill more.

Learning curve for crpg is less steep than native because of the slowness, it lets people get used to blocking and the proper mechanisms of melee combat rather than stupid native where you pretty much pick up a sword and board and hide from range.

Thucydides... You do realize warband starts you out with stones right? it's profoundly less "new" player friendly than native. In native regardless of how long you've been playing, everyone has the same stats and gear that you do, you're on an equal playing field. Also, I never said the servers should be replaced with fastest speed servers. If you believe I'm saying that, you missed my point when I was talking about 50 ms differences and 200 wpf. 200 wpf is still going to be slower than(or equal to) a fastest speed server in native(Which is the point). And just because I bring up 200 wpf, doesn't mean I'm saying everyone has to have 200 wpf. As it stands, most melee don't even get above 140 wpf, it's not like you'd all of the sudden have half of them at 200 wpf, that would be called poor implementation.

[Thucydides]

CRPG starts you off as a low level peasant, and you "earn" your weapon and stats in typical rpg fashion. Native does not give you an incentive for you to learn melee combat, since you can choose an archer/cav class and get kills that way. Because mose people that play Native are either scrubs or pros, new people would feel quite overwhelmed when faced with a melee that is better than them, much easier to spam arrows/ roll as cav than deal with the manual blocking.

I personally wouldn't mind fastest speed, it would suit my playstyle a lot more since i can counter feints with chambers, and counter chambers with holds. But i'm not an average player, and i think that a "twitch based" game is less fun than a "chess like" game. Not everyone has the reflexes of a 14 year old ADD sufferer. 

Plus, i feel from a realism perspective the current speed benefits people that like to roleplay big scary men in armor. An increase in speed without an equal nerf in damage means that these big scary men become slowass pincushions from 200 wpf agi builds and archers. Remember that speed increase also means archers kiting even more than now. but i hear devs won't ever let this happen, so lol.

IF ANYTHING, a duel server on fastest would probably appease the "pros" and the "noobs". Pros can have their high stake duels in a separate server, while the noobs can be spared the humiliating defeats while learning the game

[hippy_with_a_scimi]

as much as i like spag , i think he is wrong here,

either Agi or wpf need some love here ,  there is a reason why there is a plague of str oriented chars...   

as an exemple  30-9 is ultra viable and murderous , and the guy swing speed is barely slower than a agi oriented char

 we need a adjustment on the hard wpf cap  , a bit like before but without the retirement wpf bonus ( that was the source of the trouble mainly ) 

  Agi  and  wpf was at that time the witch crpg had to burn to calm the masses....

    Can we please give Agi chars  some love  , just a hug maybe !

[Tydeus]

CRPG starts you off as a low level peasant, and you "earn" your weapon and stats in typical rpg fashion. Native does not give you an incentive for you to learn melee combat, since you can choose an archer/cav class and get kills that way. Because mose people that play Native are either scrubs or pros, new people would feel quite overwhelmed when faced with a melee that is better than them, much easier to spam arrows/ roll as cav than deal with the manual blocking.

I personally wouldn't mind fastest speed, it would suit my playstyle a lot more since i can counter feints with chambers, and counter chambers with holds. But i'm not an average player, and i think that a "twitch based" game is less fun than a "chess like" game. Not everyone has the reflexes of a 14 year old ADD sufferer. 

Plus, i feel from a realism perspective the current speed benefits people that like to roleplay big scary men in armor. An increase in speed without an equal nerf in damage means that these big scary men become slowass pincushions from 200 wpf agi builds and archers. Remember that speed increase also means archers kiting even more than now. but i hear devs won't ever let this happen, so lol.

IF ANYTHING, a duel server on fastest would probably appease the "pros" and the "noobs". Pros can have their high stake duels in a separate server, while the noobs can be spared the humiliating defeats while learning the game

The issue in this thread is that agi isn't strong enough. Which means that by increasing speed by nerfing damage more, could very well keep the current status quo, which isn't want is desired. The point is to buff agi or nerf str. Meaning for example you would increase speed without a damage nerf. Otherwise, you're doing one of two things, talking about things unrelated to this thread, or are of the mindset that str/agi builds are currently perfectly balanced.

Also, you seem to be assuming that anyone with a high agi/WM build would automatically be overpowered when, if that were true, that would mean where we're currently at, is balance, but it isn't. Which means there is a safe amount of room to increase speed without necessarily meaning a transition to agi being OP.

[Thucydides]

The issue in this thread is that agi isn't strong enough. Which means that by increasing speed by nerfing damage more, could very well keep the current status quo, which isn't want is desired. The point is to buff agi or nerf str. Meaning for example you would increase speed without a damage nerf. Otherwise, you're doing one of two things, talking about things unrelated to this thread, or are of the mindset that str/agi builds are currently perfectly balanced.

Also, you seem to be assuming that anyone with a high agi/WM build would automatically be overpowered when, if that were true, that would mean where we're currently at, is balance, but it isn't. Which means there is a safe amount of room to increase speed without necessarily meaning a transition to agi being OP.

i don't think we're dealing with a linear line where we can buff agi to a certain point and then it'll be balanced, I think that theres a threshold where, once agi becomes buffed to that certain point, we'll see a giant shift in the Meta-Game. If we were to buff WPF, i guarantee you that you'll be seeing a lot more hybrids, where the end result would be even worse range spam. This is because you only need 100 wpf to use a weapon according to it's stats, so if WM gives more wpf, we'll see crossbow/2h/pole a lot more as well as an increase in throwers.

This is the logical consequence of giving more wpf, since if you already are a weaponsmaster, you don't need points in a melee weapon as much as you need it in a range weapon.

I understand your frustration with the "slowness" of Crpg, but other than nerfing the strength build theres really no way to buff agi without inadvertently buffing range. Or hybrids.  Perhaps a nerf to the softcap wpf ceiling, thats pretty much it.

[Jarlek]

i don't think we're dealing with a linear line where we can buff agi to a certain point and then it'll be balanced, I think that theres a threshold where, once agi becomes buffed to that certain point, we'll see a giant shift in the Meta-Game. If we were to buff WPF, i guarantee you that you'll be seeing a lot more hybrids, where the end result would be even worse range spam. This is because you only need 100 wpf to use a weapon according to it's stats, so if WM gives more wpf, we'll see crossbow/2h/pole a lot more as well as an increase in throwers.

This is the logical consequence of giving more wpf, since if you already are a weaponsmaster, you don't need points in a melee weapon as much as you need it in a range weapon.

I understand your frustration with the "slowness" of Crpg, but other than nerfing the strength build theres really no way to buff agi without inadvertently buffing range. Or hybrids.  Perhaps a nerf to the softcap wpf ceiling, thats pretty much it.

Actually, I think I've said this before but I'll say it again. What about changing wpf for ranged so they only change some things?

For example
archers:
All bows have the same accuracy. Wpf only increases drawspeed.
Xbows:
wpf increases accuracy, but reload speed remains the same. (or vice versa)
Throwing:
Increases throwing speed, but not the accuracy.

If you want me to elabourate the whole balance/shift this would require I'll do it. Too tired now. Going to bed.

[Thucydides]

Actually, I think I've said this before but I'll say it again. What about changing wpf for ranged so they only change some things?

For example
archers:
All bows have the same accuracy. Wpf only increases drawspeed.
Xbows:
wpf increases accuracy, but reload speed remains the same. (or vice versa)
Throwing:
Increases throwing speed, but not the accuracy.

If you want me to elabourate the whole balance/shift this would require I'll do it. Too tired now. Going to bed.

with the wpf requirement to use bows, hybrids will still be buffed significantly with a buff to WM. this seems like a lot of work though, as well as redrawing what we think of as "balance". I don't believe this would mitigate the range spam though, since hybriding with a crossbow would be so much easier.