End this STR madness

[Tydeus]

Bringing up Allers as an argument for STR being op is like bringing up Hippy_with_a_scimi as an argument for the scimi being op. Just saying

That's actually not what they're doing. See we would have to be saying that the elite scimitar is gimp as fuck for it to be the same. You're talking about someone being skilled and people blaming the weapon, they're talking about str being disadvantageous and susceptible to kicks, yet they pointed out an individual that completely refuted Mordhau's statements.


Edit: All the changes for the past year have been nerfs to Agi either directly or indirectly. Wpf changes, athletics changes, the more recent (though rarely spoken of in this conversation) armor soak/reduce value changes. Increasing armor's effectiveness is a buff to Str builds in two forms. First, if your armor is more effective point for point, then those who have more of it, get more effectiveness out of it. More importantly though, If you increase armor's reduce you make it harder to penetrate. I don't mean anything relating to glances, I'm talking about final damage numbers. If you're already doing a lot of damage, it's not a big deal, you might have to hit a guy once or twice more. In the case of an Agi build though, you have to hit someone several more times, not just once or twice. This is because the already low-medium damage that got reduced significantly by armor, has now become even less effective than it was.

Remember, it's not as simple as everyone's damage being cut by the same percent, the reduce doesn't work like that, it cuts damage buy a static(Of course there's a bit of rng) amount, regardless of the attacker's power strike or speed bonus.

[Bobthehero]

The change to armor also removed the random whiff that made str+armor THAT much powerful, now you can chain stagger then with low level peasants.

[Tydeus]

The change to armor also removed the random whiff that made str+armor THAT much powerful, now you can chain stagger then with low level peasants.

All while doing miniscule amounts of damage.

Those glances were really only a problem when fighting a select few players though. The new problems come about at relatively lower amounts of armor.

[Thucydides]

That's actually not what they're doing. See we would have to be saying that the elite scimitar is gimp as fuck for it to be the same. You're talking about someone being skilled and people blaming the weapon, they're talking about str being disadvantageous and susceptible to kicks, yet they pointed out an individual that completely refuted Mordhau's statements.

thats not what i'm saying, i'm saying that bringing up allers or hippy in a question that requires balance is difficult because you're pointing at players far above the norm. Most people can't kick with no athletics, and people with higher athletics do kicks easier, its just so few people use them.

But thanks for the recap

[Vibe]

Lol, you made 19-7 and you posted pictures about it? GTFO. Let me see some original-post worthy ownage.

Really, if they nerfed STR chars my fights would become even easier, thus I should not be even posting in this thread. I should be praying that they do nerf it, but I simply know that STR builds are not as OP as you say they are. Maybe elite players can get advantage and get past the short of athletics, but for majority of average players nerfing STR would lead only to confusion and grief.

Silly blind fool. Where did I say this was ownage, do you even read my posts? I said I just charged in and spam shit. No special awereness included or KD hunting. I'm showing how easy it is to be a STR char compared to AGI char. I'm showing that STR chars have more advantages than AGI chars.

You told us to take our STR chars to EU servers and see how well we do and post about it, I did exactly that - without much effort. Why you mad?

And in the end, KD equals ownage, specially in siege, amirite?

[Leshma]

I'm biased. Would like to see agi, ath and wm buffed.

Also, blanket ban NA = problem solved.

[Vibe]

Without real ownage your arguments are not up to par with your story. Actaully, disregard that. Any skilled player can get any score he wants. To counter-argument you I should go to NA server with some STF agility char, top the board with 160 ms ping, come back here saying: HERE IS THE PROOF? I was not challenging you to come back here with screenshots as I thought you would be rationale enough to see that you can get killed just as fairly by AGI char.

 Your whole story is based upon 1 or 2 elite players when really it should be about average joe. That's all I'm saying.

Wow, talk about ignorant.
First off - the point of the post was not in KD but the way how i got kills. I picked up my STR char and played just about how an average joe would, more or less. I showed you the screen because I topped the board anyway.

It's good that you mention an average joe... having a STR build gives you A LOT more hp than having an AGI build. This means an average joe can afford to make atleast 2-5 more mistakes before he gets killed. It also takes him 2-4 hits less to kill people, making every successful hit that much more effective.
Whereas an AGI build can only take one or two hits before he goes down and it takes him more swings to kill other people. Now give an AGI build to an average joe and lets see how he does.

I'm not even going to go over to players who can actually play.
Every idiot knows that STR has more benefits, be it for a bad or a good player.

[Camaris]

Wow, talk about ignorant.
First off - the point of the post was not in KD but the way how i got kills. I picked up my STR char and played just about how an average joe would, more or less. I showed you the screen because I topped the board anyway.

It's good that you mention an average joe... having a STR build gives you A LOT more hp than having an AGI build. This means an average joe can afford to make atleast 2-5 more mistakes before he gets killed. It also takes him 2-4 hits less to kill people, making every successful hit that much more effective.
Whereas an AGI build can only take one or two hits before he goes down and it takes him more swings to kill other people. Now give an AGI build to an average joe and lets see how he does.

I'm not even going to go over to players who can actually play.
Every idiot knows that STR has more benefits, be it for a bad or a good player.

If you give two noobs a lvl30 char and one is str build the other one is agi build i promise you the first one will do a lot better.
Agi builds are for people who can block good enough, or can move good enough to get any hits. Its probably safe to say that
a mediocre str-build-player by far does better then a mediocre agi-whore.

[Vibe]

If you give two noobs a lvl30 char and one is str build the other one is agi build i promise you the first one will do a lot better.
Agi builds are for people who can block good enough, or can move good enough to get any hits. Its probably safe to say that
a mediocre str-build-player by far does better then a mediocre agi-whore.

Exactly my point.

[Thomek]

How to fix this.

If one only nerfs STR, it only makes the balanced builds more preferable, making build variation less.

If one only did that, the STR-AGI builds spectrum would look like this:

Heavy STR    -    STR    -    BALANCED    -    AGI    -    Heavy AGI

  Sucks        -    Bad     -       good           -    Bad    -    Sucks

Now, everything to the left of balanced is green, and everything above is blue-red. I would love to see all flavours in the STR to AGI spectrum to be somewhat good. It would create more variation on the battlefield. That means the table above should be all green.

Ergo: AGI needs a buff..

This can be done 2 ways:
Either nerf STR and Balanced until all is equal.
Buff Agi alone. (But how? more wpf will create netcode-bending issues, giving AGI IF would remove str flavour, modifying the wpf-curve will harm Hybrids..)

Buffing agi by modifying how athletics works could be interesting.
What if Athletics became progressively more powerful?
Reintroducing AGI-based swing speed, perhaps in a lower degree than before
Make the wpf curve be modified by how many wpf professions you are using. (One curve for 2wep hybrids, one curve for 1wep pure builds) This would make it possible to adjust the pure AGI wpf builds separately from Hybrids.

Again, the goal should be to make the whole spectrum from STR to AGI equally viable.

[Teeth]

Flatten the wpf curve for crying out loud.

[Vibe]

How to fix this.

If one only nerfs STR, it only makes the balanced builds more preferable, making build variation less.

If one only did that, the STR-AGI builds spectrum would look like this:

Heavy STR    -    STR    -    BALANCED    -    AGI    -    Heavy AGI

  Sucks        -    Bad     -       good           -    Bad    -    Sucks

Now, everything to the left of balanced is green, and everything above is blue-red. I would love to see all flavours in the STR to AGI spectrum to be somewhat good. It would create more variation on the battlefield. That means the table above should be all green.

Ergo: AGI needs a buff..

This can be done 2 ways:
Either nerf STR and Balanced until all is equal.
Buff Agi alone. (But how? more wpf will create netcode-bending issues, giving AGI IF would remove str flavour, modifying the wpf-curve will harm Hybrids..)

Buffing agi by modifying how athletics works could be interesting.
What if Athletics became progressively more powerful?
Reintroducing AGI-based swing speed, perhaps in a lower degree than before
Make the wpf curve be modified by how many wpf professions you are using. (One curve for 2wep hybrids, one curve for 1wep pure builds) This would make it possible to adjust the pure AGI wpf builds separately from Hybrids.

Again, the goal should be to make the whole spectrum from STR to AGI equally viable.

Linear 5wpp per 1wpf, just like Balton said.

[Teeth]

Linear 5wpp per 1wpf, just like Balton said.

Don't you think 155 wpf for someone with 8 wm would be really slow? The average skill level is already starting to become very high so I suggest let people with 8 wm have 180-200 wpf. Make it 4wpp per wpf.

Or make it so like in singleplayer where an agility point gives you additional wpp. I believe its 5 in native, make it like 10 here. Or just let agility increase swing speed, cause what exactly does agility give you now? Strength gives you 1 hitpoint, agility like 0.2 of an athlethics point?

[Vibe]

Don't you think 155 wpf for someone with 8 wm would be really slow? The average skill level is already starting to become very high so I suggest let people with 8 wm have 180-200 wpf. Make it 4wpp per wpf.

Or make it so like in singleplayer where an agility point gives you additional wpp. I believe its 5 in native, make it like 10 here. Or just let agility increase swing speed, cause what exactly does agility give you now? Strength gives you 1 hitpoint, agility like 0.2 of an athlethics point?

I guess that value could be modified, but decrease wpp/wpf requirement and you give more wpf to STR builds. Agi point giving additional wpp is a good idea too.

Also, high wpf and high game speed only favours better ping. I would generally be for game/weapon speed increase, if I had a better ping.

[Konrax]

I think one of the major issues is:

Power strike giving a swing speed enhancement.

So its how you can be a pure strength build and maintain effective speed.

If you shift the skill from powerstrike and put it on weaponmaster it might balance it out.


Strength build = beefy slow swinging death machine
Agility build = fast swinging fast moving flurry of death