End this STR madness

[Jarlek]

with the wpf requirement to use bows, hybrids will still be buffed significantly with a buff to WM. this seems like a lot of work though, as well as redrawing what we think of as "balance". I don't believe this would mitigate the range spam though, since hybriding with a crossbow would be so much easier.

I know. That's why I asked if you wanted it more elaborated. Basically changing archery to be fixed accuracy, "your build chooses speed, but you'll never be OP" and making ranged be what it should be (in a game). Dangerous when it hits, but innacurate most of the time. Kinda what they did in strat. chadz is not alone about wanting volleys to be the best ranged tactic instead of CS:Medival "fuck coordinating with the others" (also applies to melee)

And yeah, this would buff ranged hybrids. I say that's a good thing. Archery isn't OP in cRPG, pure archers are. And all archers go pure archery and then whine because we want them to fight in melee and not kite all day long. Basically this would make it a better choice for them to get 50-100 wpf in a sidearm, so they could actually have a chance. They would still be "outskilled" point wise, but it would be enough to give them a chance. People whining after that would just be fucking hypocrites who wants to be as awesome in archery as pure archers and awesome in melee as pure melee.

Personally I say the "pure" classes should never be the most versatile, only the best in VERY specific situations. Any melee without a shield should be killed by every single archer, every shielder without a polearm should be killed by cav, every cav without athl should be butfucked on the ground, ranged without melee wpf should be butfucked in close combat etc. What can I say. I like hybrids.

[Konrax]

I liked the way athletics worked before actually, that everyone ran at the same speed it just affected how quickly you could reach that speed.

[Thucydides]

sounds great zapper i hope they implement it, and then implement A.I. bots as well

[Tydeus]

i don't think we're dealing with a linear line where we can buff agi to a certain point and then it'll be balanced, I think that theres a threshold where, once agi becomes buffed to that certain point, we'll see a giant shift in the Meta-Game. If we were to buff WPF, i guarantee you that you'll be seeing a lot more hybrids, where the end result would be even worse range spam. This is because you only need 100 wpf to use a weapon according to it's stats, so if WM gives more wpf, we'll see crossbow/2h/pole a lot more as well as an increase in throwers.

This is the logical consequence of giving more wpf, since if you already are a weaponsmaster, you don't need points in a melee weapon as much as you need it in a range weapon.

I understand your frustration with the "slowness" of Crpg, but other than nerfing the strength build theres really no way to buff agi without inadvertently buffing range. Or hybrids.  Perhaps a nerf to the softcap wpf ceiling, thats pretty much it.

Str/Agi determine everything about one's build. If you touch anything relating to Str/Agi you screw with the meta-game, there's no way around that.

What's wrong with having proficiency in a lot of different weapons? The reason hybrids were a problem in the past wasn't because of wpf, it's was due to what you could bring item-wise, that completely got fixed by the slot system. I see no advantage what-so-ever with being crossbow/2h/pole over crossbow+any single melee. None, zero. If you think maybe I'm missing some hidden advantage, please enlighten me.

Indeed you would think there would be an increase in throwing as well as all ranged, due to them having extra wpf, but the biggest thing you can do to scale that back, is to increase the wpf requirement per PT/PD and this part is linear.

also, can you strop trying to make it sound like I'm advocating this simply because I want crpg to be faster. I have 100 wpf in 1h right now, that's not exactly fast. If I were that worried about it, I'd have a lot more WM and I wouldn't hybrid 2 melee types.

[hippy_with_a_scimi]

also, can you strop trying to make it sound like I'm advocating this simply because I want crpg to be faster. I have 100 wpf in 1h right now, that's not exactly fast. If I were that worried about it, I'd have a lot more WM and I wouldn't hybrid 2 melee types.

 you are a 1hand dude now? . the horror !

[Thucydides]

Str/Agi determine everything about one's build. If you touch anything relating to Str/Agi you screw with the meta-game, there's no way around that.

What's wrong with having proficiency in a lot of different weapons? The reason hybrids were a problem in the past wasn't because of wpf, it's was due to what you could bring item-wise, that completely got fixed by the slot system. I see no advantage what-so-ever with being crossbow/2h/pole over crossbow+any single melee. None, zero. If you think maybe I'm missing some hidden advantage, please enlighten me.

Indeed you would think there would be an increase in throwing as well as all ranged, due to them having extra wpf, but the biggest thing you can do to scale that back, is to increase the wpf requirement per PT/PD and this part is linear.

also, can you strop trying to make it sound like I'm advocating this simply because I want crpg to be faster. I have 100 wpf in 1h right now, that's not exactly fast. If I were that worried about it, I'd have a lot more WM and I wouldn't hybrid 2 melee types.

so you want to be able to use more than one melee weapon, i'd support that. Would make hoplite classes fun.

[Tydeus]

so you want to be able to use more than one melee weapon, i'd support that. Would make hoplite classes fun.

Not really this either, I can already use two melee types, I do it every day I play crpg, and I do both effectively. The issue is more along the lines of what has to be sacrificed when you go the route of an agi build, just in general. Be it so that you can use multiple weapon types or the desire for high athletics or riding, there's a lot you lose, which is the exact opposite for str.

To sum it up nicely, Str gives too many benefits without enough drawbacks while Agi has too many drawbacks without enough benefits.

[Vibe]

To sum it up nicely, Str gives too many benefits without enough drawbacks while Agi has too many drawbacks without enough benefits.

Well said.

[Uumdi]

Yeah, I mean you can get by with 1 WPF in melee, no joke.  Not saying it doesn't help, but its entirely viable.

[Vibe]

Not reading whole 8 pages but I feel the game is good as it is now. Having more STR really slows down your character too much and that matters both in siege and battle mode. I've seen tons of AGI polearm characters wearing only cloth armor and rape the hell out of many STR tincans, but I rarely see it go other way around. AGI gives you speed benefit which is very important both in dueling and 1 vs multiple opponents clashes. In duels STR hoes get circled around and against multiple oponents all that extra HP helps you only to live 1 second longer while you are gangbanged.

And for those who think they can get by with under 100 WPF in any weapon, you are just fooling yourself. Sure, you can kill tons of new players but later, after you meet a player who gets you ever time, you will realize that your low WPF just doesn't cut it, literally.

This is wrong on so many levels. Having more STR does not really slow your character that much, armor does. Noone forbids STR builds to take less armor. And even with armor, you're still so goddamn fast, you would actually need a 27+ agi build to outbackpedal anyone.

Have you tried STR with lower armor? Fast as shit, can take a few hits and kills in no time.
What speed benefit are you talking about? If it's speed bonus, then it's the same for both you and the enemy.
In duels, ony extreme STR builds with heavy armor get outcircled. A player with a normal STR build (24/15) will not get outcircled.
As for gangbangs, STR can just walk inbetween them, get a bounce here and there off himself, survive several hits and kill with 1-2 slashes, whereas agi can only run away, because it takes 4 hits to kill one guy and you get taken down in 1 shot.
And 100 wpf is just enough to kill decent players, taken you have decent skill ofcourse.

[Herkkutatti]

Not reading whole 8 pages but I feel the game is good as it is now. Having more STR really slows down your character too much and that matters both in siege and battle mode. I've seen tons of AGI polearm characters wearing only cloth armor and rape the hell out of many STR tincans, but I rarely see it go other way around. AGI gives you speed benefit which is very important both in dueling and 1 vs multiple opponents clashes. In duels STR hoes get circled around and against multiple oponents all that extra HP helps you only to live 1 second longer while you are gangbanged.

And for those who think they can get by with under 100 WPF in any weapon, you are just fooling yourself. Sure, you can kill tons of new players but later, after you meet a player who gets you ever time, you will realize that your low WPF just doesn't cut it, literally.

true!

[Slamz]

The thing I don't like about this is that it would force everyone to get at least 18 agi. After armor reduction you NEED 100 WPF for your weapon stats to perform as listed. It would kill a lot of diversity in builds.

How is that any worse than current mechanics basically forcing everyone to get at least 18 str?

NOBODY seriously plays this game with 3 strength.  That's for pure joke builds like 13 shield or 13 athletics where you are just a waste of a player slot.

You can certainly play this game with 3 agility.  I'd wager more than a handful do play it like that and have reasonable success with it.

There's just nothing in agility that's as powerful as Power Strike.  8-9 PS is awesome.  8-9 shield or athletics makes you a gimp.  Weapon Master should be agility's equivalent of power strike -- the "must have" ability.  But as currently implemented, it's not.

[rustyspoon]

How is that any worse than current mechanics basically forcing everyone to get at least 18 str?

NOBODY seriously plays this game with 3 strength.  That's for pure joke builds like 13 shield or 13 athletics where you are just a waste of a player slot.

You can certainly play this game with 3 agility.  I'd wager more than a handful do play it like that and have reasonable success with it.

There's just nothing in agility that's as powerful as Power Strike.  8-9 PS is awesome.  8-9 shield or athletics makes you a gimp.  Weapon Master should be agility's equivalent of power strike -- the "must have" ability.  But as currently implemented, it's not.

First off, you CAN do pretty well in this game with 15 str. Totally doable, I do it all the time. You're also looking at this problem wrong. The way WPF works in CRPG is to allow you to either use multiple weapon types, overcome a ton of armor, or go for a ton of ranged accuracy. With Balton's system, it would allow you to be good in one weapon and that's it. Along with that, you lose out on the ability to do a lot of other things as you MUST invest 6 points into WM. It would kill a bunch of essentially balanced builds. My two most common builds are 21/15 and 21/18. I couldn't use 21/15 anymore because I'd only have 101 WPF. The only way it would be doable would be if I didn't wear ANY armor. I sure as hell couldn't use my 21/18 build, 'cause I only use 3 WM with that build. That system would kill a lot of balanced builds.

Agility has ALWAYS been about movement speed. That's it's big bonus. I don't think the solution is to fuck with WPF which works pretty well right now. I think the biggest problem is the effect that armor has on movement speed. We've all seen str builds wearing full plate that still move pretty damn fast.

Vibe had a pretty interesting idea about this as it relates to movement speed actually:

Let's say an agi char uses good armor.
A char with 18 agi and 25 total weight would have reduced penalty for those 18 weight (that he has in agi) and would further be fully penalized for the additional 7 weight.
A char with 9 agi and 25 total weight would have reduced penalty for 9 weight and would further be fully penalized for additional 14 weight.

If they use medium armor, lets say 16 total weight:
A char with 18 agi will have only reduced penalty, whereas a char with 9 agi would have 9 weight reduced penalty and 7 weight full penalty.

[Tydeus]

First off, you CAN do pretty well in this game with 15 str. Totally doable, I do it all the time. You're also looking at this problem wrong. The way WPF works in CRPG is to allow you to either use multiple weapon types, overcome a ton of armor, or go for a ton of ranged accuracy. With Balton's system, it would allow you to be good in one weapon and that's it. Along with that, you lose out on the ability to do a lot of other things as you MUST invest 6 points into WM. It would kill a bunch of essentially balanced builds. My two most common builds are 21/15 and 21/18. I couldn't use 21/15 anymore because I'd only have 101 WPF. The only way it would be doable would be if I didn't wear ANY armor. I sure as hell couldn't use my 21/18 build, 'cause I only use 3 WM with that build. That system would kill a lot of balanced builds.

The thing I don't like about this is that it would force everyone to get at least 18 agi. After armor reduction you NEED 100 WPF for your weapon stats to perform as listed. It would kill a lot of diversity in builds.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like a lot of what you're talking about here with wpf requirements, is from a ranged perspective, and Specifically due to their relatively new game mechanic; that effective PT/PD is dependent upon your effective wpf. If this is the case, I believe I stated it earlier that, Str/Agi are the two most game defining stats in warband. If you touch them at all you have to be prepared for not only a meta-game shift, but to change other factors as well. One of these I mentioned, is the wpf per PT/PD. You could easily manipulate that in several different ways to make up for anything you do to wpf.

I'm sure that were any changes done to str/agi or str/agi dependent variables, the dev team would at least take note of things like this before implementing changes.

[rustyspoon]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like a lot of what you're talking about here with wpf requirements, is from a ranged perspective, and Specifically due to their relatively new game mechanic; that effective PT/PD is dependent upon your effective wpf. If this is the case, I believe I stated it earlier that, Str/Agi are the two most game defining stats in warband. If you touch them at all you have to be prepared for not only a meta-game shift, but to change other factors as well. One of these I mentioned, is the wpf per PT/PD. You could easily manipulate that in several different ways to make up for anything you do to wpf.

I'm sure that were any changes done to str/agi or str/agi dependent variables, the dev team would at least take note of things like this before implementing changes.

Actually I was commenting specifically on Balton's proposed idea. With his idea if you had 5 WM it would ONLY give you 101 WPF. Since you need 100 WPF on a weapon for it to perform as listed, that's bad.

I've always considered Athletics to be the reason to take Agi. I'm a big athletics fan. I feel that str builds wearing heavy armor move WAY too fast for barely having any athletics. I know as I used to roll with strength builds.

If strength builds moved slower they would become more "support" characters who could easily be mobbed by weaker, faster ones. I think a change like that would help move builds back into balance.