cRPG

cRPG => Suggestions Corner => Game Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Idzo on May 16, 2013, 03:06:22 pm

Title: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Idzo on May 16, 2013, 03:06:22 pm
Last night I got dragged into discussion poles vs 2h and I was about to say why poles are better and then I realized that i don't have valid argument except length (was thinking about release,  animation, speed etc.) of some weapons and most of them are 1 directional or 2 directional attack weapons. I'm completely aware of versatility of poles but is it enough?
There are few pure polearm users. I'm not counting hoplites in this thread.

Guys, what do you think?

Which class is superior?

Polestagger was devastating in combination with proper footwork.
Is it time for return of polestagger since its only(?) advantage over 2h?
 

Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Gurnisson on May 16, 2013, 03:11:49 pm
As a pure polearm player.

NO, not polestagger!
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Panos on May 16, 2013, 03:13:06 pm
Polearms are inferior to 2handers.

Slower, same damage, the lolstab can outreach swings, ghostrange, never bounce, histslashes.


I agree, with Gunri, polestagger was a total bullshit, but for mother of god, NERF 2HANDERS a bit.



Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Idzo on May 16, 2013, 03:13:28 pm
As a pure polearm player.

NO, not polestagger!

Why? Elaborate pls :P
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Molly on May 16, 2013, 03:18:59 pm
Polearms are inferior to 2handers.

Slower, same damage, the lolstab can outreach swings, ghostrange, never bounce, histslashes.


I agree, with Gunri, polestagger was a total bullshit, but for mother of god, NERF 2HANDERS a bit.
I was about to write "Don't bring polestagger back or Panos would have to stop bitching about 2h"... but then I read his post :D
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Gurnisson on May 16, 2013, 03:23:22 pm
Why? Elaborate pls :P

Because it was the most fucked up mechanic ever. It still annoys me that ranged weapons have it, but it was worse on polearms. For almost every second hit you could get a free hit to boot, that was impossible for the enemy to defend. How is that not bullshit? I loved either making one-shots to the face with my old long awlpike or hitting them once to the body and getting a free face stab afterwards, pretty much always grabbing a kill every time I made a hit. However, I was one of the first to admit how broken it was and I wanted it gone. It was overpowered.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Panos on May 16, 2013, 03:25:12 pm
I was about to write "Don't bring polestagger back or Panos would have to stop bitching about 2h"... but then I read his post :D

Telling the truth ain`t bitching.

Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Molly on May 16, 2013, 03:29:08 pm
Spamming the truth is bitching though :D
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Tydeus on May 16, 2013, 03:39:30 pm
I think high tier polearm vs 2h is balanced fairly well(with a few exceptions such as the flamberge), but the lower-medium tier polearms have either always been bad or were devastated by the removal of polestagger which they so heavily relied. Even with the recent and upcoming buffs to polearms, I'm still don't believe the issue has been resolved.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: SMEGMAR on May 16, 2013, 03:40:27 pm
2h is easier simply because they barely get weapon stunned and when they do their recovery is incredibly fast. Their stabs often outreach poles. The animations are super fluid and swings seem to connect faster than that of pole / 1h. Poles also gets stuck in walls / players way more frequently than 2hs do.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Fips on May 16, 2013, 03:48:43 pm
I remember some great long axe spammers like tor (Not saying he is a bad player, but that GLA spam was the worst) hitting me once and then just keep on hitting me without any chance of getting my block up. So yeah, if polestagger would get back into the game i would respecc to polearm with 21/24. =P
Only thing that needs to be balanced is 2h lolstab, other than that i find pole and 2h too be OP equally.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Tore on May 16, 2013, 03:50:22 pm
1h without shield masterrace
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Tydeus on May 16, 2013, 03:56:17 pm
2h is easier simply because they barely get weapon stunned and when they do their recovery is incredibly fast.
Polearms gain a large weight bonus when blocking a hit, so they will undoubtedly be getting weapon stunned far less often.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Grumbs on May 16, 2013, 04:06:12 pm
Rather than polestagger i'd rather offset the negative aspect of having long weapons that you hold in the middle. You run slower and they get caught on players or even damage people behind you, without really reaching further to compensate. If not then a damage buff could be a possibility. I would rather not nerf 2 handers though particularly, since I think people would simply elect to be a shielder so they can still use swords. We already have too much incentive to use a shield, even for poking type players. So either buff poles (indirectly even with less glitchy attacks/ the slower run speed) or give a slight nerf to 2 hand stab, but don't shift the balance further towards shields imo. If you do then nerf ranged more so shields are less of a requirement. The whole game is dumbed down with shields being a prevalent play style imo.

Pole stagge ris not something worth having in the game though I think. It was pretty lame to get free hits or to completely disable a player for too long. Kind of like getting hit from ranged :D
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Prpavi on May 16, 2013, 04:08:18 pm
both lolstab and pole stab are equally broken and i find it quite amusing seeing this thread come from "pike the sky then drag it down for a HS with a pike" Izdo.

I play 2h Danish atm but i switch it up and ye i abuse lolstabmostly against annoying cav and have no bad feelings about it.

If 2h is so extremely superior why are u playing poles? goes both for Idzo and Panos, stop being so righteous and stop playing victims instead respec and join the master race.

Regards,

2h my old friend Prpavi
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Panos on May 16, 2013, 04:13:10 pm
If 2h is so extremely superior why are u playing poles? goes both for Idzo and Panos, stop being so righteous and stop playing victims instead respec and join the master race.

Regards,

2h my old friend Prpavi

Because there are some people who, still play the mod to have fun.

Don`t nerf 2h swords, just give polethrust to all greatswords. Plain simple
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Lange on May 16, 2013, 04:21:21 pm
Don`t nerf 2h swords, just give polethrust to all greatswords. Plain simple
Longsword and HBS are equally or even more OP. (Yes, that's why I am using one myself. :mrgreen:)
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Michael on May 16, 2013, 04:27:51 pm

If 2h is so extremely superior why are u playing poles? goes both for Idzo and Panos


Good question.


Not sure about Idzo, but Panos plays polearm because he is seeking a challenge.

Did you ever have the chance to watch him on Nditions and witness how skilled he is?
I had.

On topic, I am not very familiar with 2h or polearm.
In native I always play shield warrior or archer and 1h if melee is unavoidable.
But even without good armour, 2h and pole seems to be easier than 1h in crpg. Not sure about Strategus, havent played it since the very first era.

EDIT: Ah Panos is online all day.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Gurnisson on May 16, 2013, 04:29:51 pm
both lolstab and pole stab are equally broken and i find it quite amusing seeing this thread come from "pike the sky then drag it down for a HS with a pike" Izdo.

I play 2h Danish atm but i switch it up and ye i abuse lolstabmostly against annoying cav and have no bad feelings about it.

If 2h is so extremely superior why are u playing poles? goes both for Idzo and Panos, stop being so righteous and stop playing victims instead respec and join the master race.

Greatswords have 3 other great directions, and their stab is better up close, and not too far behind in length compared to hoplites, 2d polearms and long spear. Polestab is inferior to 2h stab, no doubt about it, but that doesn't mean that polestagger should come back. I have played as a piker a lot of my cRPG time, and playing with a german greatsword didn't limit me that much in mass melee while severely increasing my 1v1 capabilities. Having used bill, halberd, ranseur, long awlpike and spetum in my time, there's pretty much no gain compared to a german greatsword, and I find that quite sad considering you lose 50 % of your attacking directions.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Dezilagel on May 16, 2013, 04:32:30 pm
Polearms vs 2h is fine imo, but regardless off balance I completely agree with Gurni that polestagger was the most bullshit mechanics ever and they should not bring it back ever.

I really don't get why people are so annoyed with 2h's; they're the easiest class to fight  :?
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Tyr_ on May 16, 2013, 04:33:22 pm
2hers, especially greatswords and bastardsword are excellent dueling and skirmishing weapons. Winning a 1v3 is much easier with them than with any other weapon class.

What makes 2hers very strong especially on eu1 is that there is no teamplay, so a 2h hero wont have to face big groups but can backstab and get many easy kills, while in strat he cant flank without getting shot or bumped, and in close combat you will get the shit piked out of you.
But once you get into a proper, coordinated battle they lose much of their advantage. If there would be only strat i would immediatly take 1her or polearm over my great sword, if you work together in large groups the are much better than 2hers, its easier to survive in formation fight and you are more useful to your team using 1h or pole.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Idzo on May 16, 2013, 04:34:09 pm
If 2h is so extremely superior why are u playing poles? goes both for Idzo and Panos, stop being so righteous and stop playing victims instead respec and join the master race.



Why? Cause i prefer big axes. Simple. For same reason i wear Coat of Plates cuz i don't like any other armor.
If i want to get most out of my build and axe i would use completely different gear.

I wasn't righteous neither was playing victim, I was just asking for community's opinion. That's all.
I don't want any buffs nerfs or whatever. Not even polestagger. Just opinion. Cigane
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Panos on May 16, 2013, 04:46:08 pm
Polearms vs 2h is fine imo, but regardless off balance I completely agree with Gurni that polestagger was the most bullshit mechanics ever and they should not bring it back ever.

I really don't get why people are so annoyed with 2h's; they're the easiest class to fight  :?

Sorry Dezi, not all polearmers like to spam a war spear.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: korppis on May 16, 2013, 04:55:38 pm
By 2h you mean greatswords, right?

- Both can be spammed with some footwork.
- Higher tier polearms are a bit heavier than greatswords which makes GS lolstab easier. In return that weight gives better chance to stun others.
- Polearms seem a bit more versatile, with many of them having secondary mode, making them better against shielders.
- Polearms also got that unique ability to stop horses.
- Polearms have better variety of weapons overall (from very long to short, all damage types). Then again 2h have more CT weapons.

So... hard to say which is "better". They both shine in different situations.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: oohillac on May 16, 2013, 05:11:56 pm
Polearms are very versatile, whereas two-handed weapons have superior animations.  Go ask a new player to fight with a 2h and a spear/GLA/whatever and see which he finds more comfortable.

Also the 2h stab is ridiculous.  Change the animation to something with less reach or crazy hit allowance and I bet there would be far fewer 2h heroes.  Sure, polestabs are out of whack too, but not to that extent.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Macropus on May 16, 2013, 05:18:49 pm
Also what I like about polearms is that while 1h and 2h animations look like fancy fencing, polearm animations look like beating the shit out of your enemy with that long stick  :D
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: IR_Kuoin on May 16, 2013, 05:23:47 pm
Wish my Katana didn't have the stab animation for 2hand, its annoying and makes me stagger when I use it by accident.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: betard_lulz on May 16, 2013, 05:29:15 pm
nerf 2h
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Kafein on May 16, 2013, 05:37:09 pm
I'm not trying to be exhaustive but a few points :



I'd say 2h are better if you don't work with teammates a lot.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Falka on May 16, 2013, 05:52:53 pm
some great long axe spammers like tor (Not saying he is a bad player,

spammer Tor, not a bad player... Ye, I do agree, maybe he wasn't noob, but definitely mediocre player...  :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

i find it quite amusing seeing this thread come from "pike the sky then drag it down for a HS with a pike" Izdo.

ye, pike abuser crying about 2h lolstab.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Kafein on May 16, 2013, 06:01:32 pm
Tor was (does he still plays ?) able to :


Definitely not a great player in my book.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Thomek on May 16, 2013, 06:01:40 pm
Blah I'd say just nerf longer weapons.

Backpedaling=extra hit AND safety by distance makes them too powerful.

Having an easy time nowadays with a LHB and ninja gear..
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Gurnisson on May 16, 2013, 06:04:04 pm
So little respect for Tor, disgusting! The best player to player to ever have played cRPG 8-)
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Falka on May 16, 2013, 06:04:35 pm
Tor

Definitely not a great player in my book.

As I said, mediocre player, making 60-0 on Eu1 by accident.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Tibe on May 16, 2013, 06:29:07 pm
There are minor issues with 2h I agree, but its nothing serius. I often get the feeling that Panos is over-dramatizing every time there is a discussion about 2h. He's always going into "PLEASE, SOMEONE THINK OF THE CHILDREN!" mode. Its the animations that makes it the babies first c-rpg class. But its definately not as bad as it used to be. I am still very pleased with that patch that buffed 1h some time ago. It was needed and the difference is quite noticable imo.
 
But polearms? I dunno, I use the most usual polearm ever with my alt and I do alright. Not every class is ment for dueling people. Time to get over that "everyclassmustbeequalineverysinglewayever" understanding.

Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Panos on May 16, 2013, 06:37:10 pm
There are minor issues with 2h I agree, but its nothing serius. I often get the feeling that Panos is over-dramatizing every time there is a discussion about 2h. He's always going into "PLEASE, SOMEONE THINK OF THE CHILDREN!" mode. Its the animations that makes it the babies first c-rpg class. But its definately not as bad as it used to be. I am still very pleased with that patch that buffed 1h some time ago. It was needed and the difference is quite noticable imo.
 
But polearms? I dunno, I use the most usual polearm ever with my alt and I do alright. Not every class is ment for dueling people. Time to get over that "everyclassmustbeequalineverysinglewayever" understanding.

I consider myself average player, and I really find it annoying everytime a lower skilled player kills me, just because he is using a 2h.

Look at all those "great" players, all of them, have something to abuse, either lolstab, either hitslash, either ghostrange, and the list can go on and on.

And yes, every class should be equal, because that would be the only way to show to the world who truly is a good player.

Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Casimir on May 16, 2013, 06:39:03 pm
Once again balancing an entire class based on greatswords its dumb. Not all 2h are over powered by any stretch of the imagination.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Panos on May 16, 2013, 06:44:57 pm
Once again balancing an entire class based on greatswords its dumb. Not all 2h are over powered by any stretch of the imagination.


Don`t nerf 2h swords, just give polethrust to all greatswords. Plain simple
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Kafein on May 16, 2013, 06:48:04 pm
Look at all those "great" players, all of them, have something to abuse, either lolstab, either hitslash, either ghostrange, and the list can go on and on.

Are you implying that there's nothing to shamelessly exploit about polearms ?

Once again balancing an entire class based on greatswords its dumb. Not all 2h are over powered by any stretch of the imagination.

At least all cut 2h do above 30c damage.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Michael on May 16, 2013, 06:48:58 pm
I consider myself average player,

I`m better than 90% of your clanmates.

Including you. 

So you lost your skill in that few minutes?

I can understand that people lose skill when the dont play for weeks or even months, but you are a freak out of the line even in that matter how it seems.


Quote
and I really find it annoying everytime a lower skilled player kills me, just because he is using a 2h.



And I really find it annoying everytime a lower skilled player with a big polearm jumps around and hopes for one lucky hit to kill my guy with his one-hander that barely can cut butter and then gives me names and complains about me being a backpedaller.


Deal with it. Getting annoyed is part of this game.

Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Panos on May 16, 2013, 06:55:33 pm
Are you implying that there's nothing to shamelessly exploit about polearms ?

Are you going to tell me how fucked up glaive is ??

If yes, well done sherlock.


Glaive is shunned amongst polearmers, thats why u rarely see it on the battlefield.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Kafein on May 16, 2013, 07:13:11 pm
Are you going to tell me how fucked up glaive is ??

If yes, well done sherlock.


Glaive is shunned amongst polearmers, thats why u rarely see it on the battlefield.

The glaive is just the tip of the iceberg. All long 4D polearms are just as broken.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Tibe on May 16, 2013, 07:15:08 pm
I consider myself average player, and I really find it annoying everytime a lower skilled player kills me, just because he is using a 2h.
What am I? Pro? Not even close. What getting killed by lowbies 1vs1? Or by getting ganked, in which case it is perfectly normal that someone with the longest pointy end gets the kill? Personally I dont share your experience. I appear to be getting killed by the same players I always do, nomatter what weapon they use. I have seen how some noobs to pick up 2hs, in which case I dont let it bother me and their arse still gets mounted on my noobplayertrophywall. Could it be that at those times you encounter le wild noob with 2h you just loose your cool and do stupid mistakes. Also some people with certain huge vendetta against 2h, will remember only those times they get killed by 2h, so they could use it later to fuel their hatespeeches.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: jtobiasm on May 16, 2013, 07:25:30 pm
Can anyone explain what polestagger is please.

Also polearms don't even compare with 2hs apart from the versatility
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: pepejul on May 16, 2013, 07:32:59 pm
When I play 2H I m raped by poles...

When I play Pole I m raped by 2h...

This afternoon I was in my full +3 gear with longawlpike MW and long axe, I have been raped by...a pikeman !!! in 1 VS 1 duel... He kicked me and poke ma head fast...

Don't care about weapon...a noob is a noob...
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: rufio on May 16, 2013, 07:43:33 pm
ì say in general polearms are better, specially because eazyer hiltslash and animation, short 2handers better for duals thow, (longsword, heavy bastard).
also tor is bestes, he chambers kicks, hiltslashes, blocks, has great awareness , and is a boss in general
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Fartface on May 16, 2013, 07:44:56 pm
Realised it wouldn´t take long before Tor fanboys started showing up.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: DaveUKR on May 16, 2013, 08:03:27 pm
tbh, I can't say that 2h is that superior to polearms. Polearms give to their bearers much more advantages, features and diversity than you imagine. Polеstun was one of them, but stupid. As a masterwork whore I could afford myself any of polearms when I was playing a polearmer and it was great. Want to teamplay? Okay, I've got shield skill and ashwood pike = great hoplite. Want to camp ruins, protect archers from cav, make LOLWTF kills? I've got longspear, good class. Want to take part in clusterfuck and 1hit tincans? Bec de Corbin comes to save your day. Wanna get shielders? Poleaxe, okay. And so on.

Classes are not bad. Some items are just broken. In my opinion, all the bastard swords should be much weaker and be 1 slot, longsword has to be longer, much slower and not be a bastard sword.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: darmaster on May 16, 2013, 08:11:09 pm
I agree, poles are worse than 2H; but as you said polearms are versatile: hoplite, piker and pure polearm, while 2H doesn't have so many alternatives. This is good enough, as a polearm user i don't think they need any kind of buff, but 2H stab totally needs a nerf, that's what i think.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Gurnisson on May 16, 2013, 08:30:50 pm
The glaive is just the tip of the iceberg. All long 4D polearms are just as broken.

If all long 4d polearms are broken, pretty much all weapons in this game is broken.

Can anyone explain what polestagger is please.

The long stagger animation that sometimes happen when you get shot and lose control of your character for a longer period than usual. Was a 50 % chance to get staggered like that when you got hit by a polearm a (long) while back.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Kafein on May 16, 2013, 08:53:16 pm
If all long 4d polearms are broken, pretty much all weapons in this game is broken.

Long weapons are weird anyway because the game wasn't made counting that the tip of a longer weapon moves faster given the same speed rating. But what is really broken with long 4D polearms is the hiltslashing and the frame skipping in animations. I can chamberblock 1h and 2h just fine, even sometimes held swings and stabs if I have good ping. Polearms ? No way. And I'm not the only one. You never had a pole guy hold a (typically right) swing, then when he releases, swing and complete the animation basically instantly (we talking a handful of frames) ? This with any angle or weapon I should add. I can block "slow" 1h and 2h sideswings based on the moment they release, doing that with "slow" polearms most often just doesn't work, unless their angle is really really bad.

I wouldn't say this is more than a minor concern though, at least because not so many people use polearms to begin with.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Prpavi on May 16, 2013, 09:03:52 pm
Because there are some people who, still play the mod to have fun.

Don`t nerf 2h swords, just give polethrust to all greatswords. Plain simple


I have fun too. Fun is subjective though, you and I play melee classes and try to help your team by slaying as much people as possible. We play to win in the end, yes?
Some other players think fun is playing a HX and delaying the rounds. to me that is griefing to them it's lolz...

I think the problem is you want 2h and polearm to be equal. Yet they never were and never will be. 2h is a main slayer class of this game and will always be due to the nature of Greatswords and the animations. Period. but that is all 2h is good at at the moment duels, not even clusterfucks as before but it still does well there.

Polearm class is so much more veristile, when balancing this class you need to consider: pikers, hoplites, poleaxe, axe users. When you say 2h you only think of Greatswords and Bastard swords, you used to have maulers too but guess what that class is unplayable (i guess because they buffed 2h) and it's so much easier to play hoplite/1h shielder without crushtrough now. blunt/crushtrough 2h are crap. your only choice is to take a sword and slay. you should try different weapons and appreciate the diversitiy ur class gives you.

Bottom line, why do u use ur Bardiche, im sure it's not because the weapon sucks, it has it's advantages and at the end of the day u play to kill as much players as possible like i do and get that multi. If you want a hero class play 2h, if you want to duel well take bec/glaive/lhb, don't be stubborn with ur bardiche if it ain't doing the trick.


Why? Cause i prefer big axes. Simple. For same reason i wear Coat of Plates cuz i don't like any other armor.
If i want to get most out of my build and axe i would use completely different gear.

I wasn't righteous neither was playing victim, I was just asking for community's opinion. That's all.
I don't want any buffs nerfs or whatever. Not even polestagger. Just opinion. Cigane

You also have 2h big axes but guess what they suck ass compared to axes in pole class and thats why u play polearms. right? so you still picked what is best for YOU and your style. get it?




Not sure about Idzo, but Panos plays polearm because he is seeking a challenge.

Did you ever have the chance to watch him on Nditions and witness how skilled he is?
I had.

On topic, I am not very familiar with 2h or polearm.

And who the fuck are you? the attorney of Panos? do u know him and I have been in a clan 2 years ago, duelled many times and yes i know very well his skill level. guess u don't but it feels goo to be a smartass don't it?

bolded part: why do u comment if you don't know the main subject of this topic? oh i forgot, you like to be a smartass.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Idzo on May 16, 2013, 10:20:21 pm

You also have 2h big axes but guess what they suck ass compared to axes in pole class and thats why u play polearms. right? so you still picked what is best for YOU and your style. get it?


Nope. Not true. At least you know that... I spent shitload of time with you.
I'm gen 19, 15 of em i played as 2h. Last 2 i was cav and then pure poles till now where i added 3 shiled skill on lvl 34 so i can play hoplite.
I rly like poles more and thats why i played 2h all the time so i dont get bored on em soon.. for me takes ages to grind lvls..
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: jtobiasm on May 16, 2013, 10:22:33 pm
The long stagger animation that sometimes happen when you get shot and lose control of your character for a longer period than usual. Was a 50 % chance to get staggered like that when you got hit by a polearm a (long) while back.

Thank you!!
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Kato on May 16, 2013, 10:23:36 pm
many good posts, but

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Prpavi on May 16, 2013, 10:40:57 pm

Nope. Not true. At least you know that... I spent shitload of time with you.
I'm gen 19, 15 of em i played as 2h. Last 2 i was cav and then pure poles till now where i added 3 shiled skill on lvl 34 so i can play hoplite.
I rly like poles more and thats why i played 2h all the time so i dont get bored on em soon.. for me takes ages to grind lvls..

I seem to always remember you as polearm O.o (must be the weed  :mrgreen:)

Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Teeth on May 16, 2013, 11:07:15 pm
What makes greatswords such good battle weapons is that aside from 40c swings you also get a stab the length of an awlpike for anti cav and support. Which makes it incredibly versatile.

I love how almost all of you use versatility as a balance argument for polearms instead. This is a fallacy, because what good does it do me that I can use a longspear, a poleaxe and lances when I meet a Danish user in the field with my trusty German Poleaxe. How does it in any way help me beat him? You use 1 weapon at a time, being able to use 12 different useful ones does not make a class any better at fighting a different class.

2h is a lot easier to use. Every strat battle I see people with morningstars run into a crowd and swing it around, sometimes getting like 5 kills. Then I decide to try it with my bec de corbin, glance, glance, glance, glance. 2h gets stuck less and 2h does not glance at shitty angles. Ever wondered why every mediocre player on siege uses a 2h? Because spamming LMB with it is oh so darn succesful.

Definitely not a great player in my book.
Tor is one of the best players of this mod, he is right up there with Chase, Gurnisson and Blueberry Muffin. Sit down and show some respect.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Jarold on May 16, 2013, 11:14:19 pm
Simple, go one hander.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Prpavi on May 16, 2013, 11:14:29 pm
@Teeth

polearm is a utility class.

you seem to be doing well with poles abusing stabs either as a hoplite or a piker. why whine?
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Falka on May 16, 2013, 11:23:22 pm
Tor is one of the best players of this mod, he is right up there with Chase, Gurnisson and Blueberry Muffin. Sit down and show some respect.

This!  :wink:
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Teeth on May 16, 2013, 11:39:26 pm
@Teeth

polearm is a utility class.

you seem to be doing well with poles abusing stabs either as a hoplite or a piker. why whine?
I am not really whining though am I, I am just stating that: 1) Greatswords are versatile in battle, 2) Having access to a variety of weapon types is not a valid argument in a class balance thread, 3) 2h is very easy to use, 4) TOR!

Disagree on any of these points?

I don't think hoplite and piker are really the polearms we are discussing here, but for the record, ashwood pike is OP, longspear is balanced but is gay to play now, pike could use a considerable buff. I'd think we are rather comparing 4D polearms to two handers. 'Polearms are a utility class', well that is just bullshit. 4D polearms are general infantry weapons, just like 2h. I think the balance between these is quite okay, really. I'd just like to see that 2h would glance a little more when people do sloppy swings and not ignore buildings and teammates as much. So all the scrub mediocre 2h heroes wouldn't do as well as they do now because they play an easy mode class.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Kaoklai on May 17, 2013, 12:05:52 am
Making any animations the same across weapon types in pursuit of "balance" is fucking stupid.  The animations are what make weapon types.  You can want them changed but you can't want them to be the same.  That's right, you can't want that.  Sorry, that desire is null and void.  Admittedly, if you're a bad, then 2h is probably the best/easiest class to play.  But one of the best things about M&B is that you can always leverage the unique qualities of the different animations into an advantage.  Every weapon type has things going for it and in large part it's how well you adapt to those differences (in terms of both using and facing them) that defines skill.

And more to OP's point, 2h and pole are both good.  I'm sure you're aware of 2h's strong points so I'll just point out some of pole's. 

1) The rightswing/stab transition is amazing.  I catch everyone off guard with it.  It's one of the best feints in the game. 

2) Wobble holds are extremely effective with polearms, moreso than with 2h in my opinion. 

3) Increased block-stun resistance. 

4) Very easy to double hit with (not talking hiltslashing, though that's still possible).  Move left while rightswinging and stab while moving forward/right immediately after it lands/is blocked (situational, works quite frequently)

5) The stab is fantastic (and hugely underrated).  Just in terms of numbers it generally has monster damage.  It's less likely to whiff early in the animation and it's easy to chain stab with, especially in the midst of battle.  The faster activation on the pole stab also makes it better for incorporating into continuous pressure (i.e. W-key hero).  Wobble holding the stab with shorter polearms is very effective as well. 

6) It is much more difficult to chamber-block polearms.

7) Polearm versatility (which you mentioned) is twofold.  There are versatile weapons that have good cut, good stab, good weight, good length, balanced shieldbreaking, horse-rear, or some combination thereof.  There is also the versatility of totally altering your playstyle by choosing a longspear, pike, 2d polearm, long maul, hopliting, etc.  This isn't necessarily an "advantage" in terms of battlefield performance, but it is one of the positives of speccing pole (and is absolutely an advantage in strat). 

In the end, it's all about the player.  Some people will do amazing with a Great Long Bardiche and be shitty with a LongOPsword.  If anything, I'd like to see the polearm animations completely overhauled as two of them, left and right swing, make no sense visually and the leftswing is useless.  This will never happen, though, much too involved a process. 
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: IG_Saint on May 17, 2013, 12:17:21 am
2) Having access to a variety of weapon types is not a valid argument in a class balance thread

Of course it is, if we were talking about say poleaxe vs danish greatsword balance it would be a bad argument, but in a 2h vs polearm discussion you need to factor in everything about the classes. The fact that pole can effortlessly switch between the best cav, best support, best shield breakers and the best knockdown weapons is a huge factor in a class balance thread. Balance is not limited to 1 round of battle, balanced implies that overal the 2 weapon classes are equal. So imagine 100 rounds of battle of equally skilled teams one team 100 2hs and the other 100 polearms, equal distribution among the teams of the 3 main classes, infantry, ranged and cav, would the win percentage be 50/50? Then it's balanced.

You use 1 weapon at a time, being able to use 12 different useful ones does not make a class any better at fighting a different class.

Yes it does, because a class isn't limited to one person. A class is lots of people. All you're saying is that versatility in weapon choice doesn't help you in a duel. cRPG isn't balanced around duels and as soon as there are more people involved versatility in weapon choice makes a huge impact. That 100 rounds of battle example? Who do you thinks gonna win that, 2hs? My money is on polearms.

That concludes my devil's advocate part, now my actual opinion about class balance: it's fine, it's been fine for ages, minor tweaks are all that's needed. At the top of my list right now would be nerfing the 1h/2h 2hs back to what they were. Those weapons needed a buff like america needs more fat people.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Teeth on May 17, 2013, 12:36:08 am
Of course it is, if we were talking about say poleaxe vs danish greatsword balance it would be a bad argument, but in a 2h vs polearm discussion you need to factor in everything about the classes. The fact that pole can effortlessly switch between the best cav, best support, best shield breakers and the best knockdown weapons is a huge factor in a class balance thread. Balance is not limited to 1 round of battle, balanced implies that overal the 2 weapon classes are equal.
I simply disagree. So you think it is okay that a Danish is a better weapon than a Poleaxe (hypothetical scenario, calm your tits), because the Poleaxe user can spawn with a Long Spear next round? I think that is bullshit. Individually, weapons need to be balanced with eachother.

All you're saying is that versatility in weapon choice doesn't help you in a duel. cRPG isn't balanced around duels and as soon as there are more people involved versatility in weapon choice makes a huge impact.
The duel was a mere illustration. All I am saying is that versatility in weapon choice does not matter for the individual player, because you can't take 14 polearms with you. You spawn with 1 polearm.

Your 100 rounds of battle scenario is flawed. Imagine 1 player playing a 10000 rounds each with every (top tier) polearm, then the same player playing a 10000 rounds each with every (top tier) 2h. If within the class the results are equal = internal balance achieved, if polearm compared to 2h have equal results = class balance achieved. Having a wide variety of polearms to pick from does not affect the class balance here, and it doesn't in reality either.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Jarlek on May 17, 2013, 12:50:42 am
Of course it is, if we were talking about say poleaxe vs danish greatsword balance it would be a bad argument, but in a 2h vs polearm discussion you need to factor in everything about the classes. The fact that pole can effortlessly switch between the best cav, best support, best shield breakers and the best knockdown weapons is a huge factor in a class balance thread.
-snip-
Excuse me, but wtf are you smoking?
...And why aren't you sharing?

Best cav weapons? Yeah, the lances are polearms and they are the best cav weapons.
Best support? Pikes or mauls are the main melee support weapons. Polearm got pikes, 2hs got mauls. Best support weapons title is evenly split between 2h and poles.
Best shield breakers? That was true before, but with the massive buff to 2h axes 2h is just as good as polearms when it comes to shieldbreaking. More damage for only slightly shorter reach. Only time you want a polearm shieldbreaker over a 2h is if you want the really long, but really slow, ones like GLB. Also take note of the morningstar. A 2-slot shieldbreaker that is also the most damaging pierce weapon in the game. Not something to underestimate. 2h axes are also usable from horse, something polearm axes are not.
Best knockdown weapons? Considering knockdown chance is maxed at 30% and pretty much all knockdown weapons reaches that limit: there really is no way to designate a "best" knockdown weapon. Sure, the LONGEST knockdown weapons are polearm (Quarter Staff and Long Hafted Spiked Mace at 137&138), but the goedendag is pretty close after with it's 117 length and 2h animation bonus reach. You could also argue that 1h got the best knockdown weapons because they are faster (scratch that, staffs are the fastest) and can be used with a shield. Then again, the biggest benefit with knockdown is the free hit, so the knockdown weapon with the most damage would also make sense to consider the "best" knockdown weapon, and the maul&mallet wins there.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Panos on May 17, 2013, 12:57:11 am
I really want to post, but this mod is full of 2hander lobbyism.

Thats ok people, 2hander class is ok, no need to discuss anything else.


P.S : Trading +3 Double Norman Mail for +3 Heavy Kuyak and +3 Long Bardiche for Danish GSword .

#Swag.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Kafein on May 17, 2013, 01:05:53 am
Tor is one of the best players of this mod, he is right up there with Chase, Gurnisson and Blueberry Muffin. Sit down and show some respect.

I'm sorry, hiltslashers are still the spawn of the devil and must die of a pancreas cancer alone in a back street selling their body for meth, no matter how skilled.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Falka on May 17, 2013, 01:07:24 am
Best support? Pikes or mauls are the main melee support weapons. Polearm got pikes, 2hs got mauls. Best support weapons title is evenly split between 2h and poles.

And ofc mauls are equally usefull as pikes...  :rolleyes:

Best knockdown weapons? Considering knockdown chance is maxed at 30% and pretty much all knockdown weapons reaches that limit: there really is no way to designate a "best" knockdown weapon. Sure, the LONGEST knockdown weapons are polearm (Quarter Staff and Long Hafted Spiked Mace at 137&138

I think that poleaxe/elegant poleaxe in secondary mode has knockdown trait, though I'm not sure.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: IG_Saint on May 17, 2013, 01:14:20 am
I simply disagree. So you think it is okay that a Danish is a better weapon than a Poleaxe (hypothetical scenario, calm your tits), because the Poleaxe user can spawn with a Long Spear next round? I think that is bullshit. Individually, weapons need to be balanced with eachother. The duel was a mere illustration. All I am saying is that versatility in weapon choice does not matter for the individual player, because you can't take 14 polearms with you. You spawn with 1 polearm.

You're using individual examples to make your argument for class balance, that just doesn't work. Of course it's not ok that a danish is better than a poleaxe because a poleaxe user can spawn with a long spear next round. But that situation is absolutely meaningless, because actual servers have a wide array of different classes and different weapons. Then the situation becomes greatswords, great maul, longsword/hbs and whatever 2h cav prefers to use vs poleaxes, GLA, bec, glaive, pikes, long maul, all the hoplite weapons and the lances. AKA best dueling weapons, best crushthrough and crappy cav weapons vs some rather good dueling weapons, best support weapons (by far), far beter 1h/shield choice, second best crushthrough (isn't saying much, but still) and the best cav weapons.

Yes, 2h wins in an individual situation. Pole has a huge advantage in a group situation (the ones were the game is actually balanced around).

Your 100 rounds of battle scenario is flawed. Imagine 1 player playing a 10000 rounds each with every (top tier) polearm, then the same player playing a 10000 rounds each with every (top tier) 2h. If within the class the results are equal = internal balance achieved, if polearm compared to 2h have equal results = class balance achieved. Having a wide variety of polearms to pick from does not affect the class balance here, and it doesn't in reality either.

Care to explain why it is flawed? Your example is flawed, simply because you again assume cRPG is balanced around one person. It isn't. You can't talk about class balance and then use 1 person as an example. 1 person just isn't a good representative of the class! Class balance is about the balance of the class vs the rest of the classes. You can't just take 1 person from each class, see how they match up to each and call it balanced/unbalanced based on that.

Excuse me, but wtf are you smoking?
...And why aren't you sharing?

I'm dutch, take a wild stab in the dark.

Best support? Pikes or mauls are the main melee support weapons. Polearm got pikes, 2hs got mauls. Best support weapons title is evenly split between 2h and poles.

You're ignoring hoplites. Even without hoplites I'd say pikes are far more effective than mauls because of their reach. (possible execption being at the top of a ladder on siege and even there a long pike can be incredible effective).

Best shield breakers? That was true before, but with the massive buff to 2h axes 2h is just as good as polearms when it comes to shieldbreaking. More damage for only slightly shorter reach. Only time you want a polearm shieldbreaker over a 2h is if you want the really long, but really slow, ones like GLB. Also take note of the morningstar. A 2-slot shieldbreaker that is also the most damaging pierce weapon in the game. Not something to underestimate. 2h axes are also usable from horse, something polearm axes are not.

You're completely ignoring the unbalanced tag and the far greater reach that polearm shieldbreakers have. The unbalanced tag, whether or not you think it's a big malus or just a small one, is still a malus. 2hs do have the best cav shieldbreakers, no doubt about that, thank god for that, what with bump stabs and bumb slashes, shields have always been a problem when I'm on my cav alt..

Best knockdown weapons? Considering knockdown chance is maxed at 30% and pretty much all knockdown weapons reaches that limit: there really is no way to designate a "best" knockdown weapon. Sure, the LONGEST knockdown weapons are polearm (Quarter Staff and Long Hafted Spiked Mace at 137&138), but the goedendag is pretty close after with it's 117 length and 2h animation bonus reach. You could also argue that 1h got the best knockdown weapons because they are faster (scratch that, staffs are the fastest) and can be used with a shield. Then again, the biggest benefit with knockdown is the free hit, so the knockdown weapon with the most damage would also make sense to consider the "best" knockdown weapon, and the maul&mallet wins there.

Again, You're completely ignoring the unbalanced tag and you're forgetting that most of the top tier polearms have an alternate mode that gives em knockdown. Polearms are much faster, have way more reach and aren't unbalanced. 2hs do win on damage, just because of the great maul (and maybe the mallet? I'm not sure of the damage values). I ignored 1hs because I thought this thread was about 2h vs pole.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Rebelyell on May 17, 2013, 01:23:09 am
I simply disagree. So you think it is okay that a Danish is a better weapon than a Poleaxe (hypothetical scenario, calm your tits), because the Poleaxe user can spawn with a Long Spear next round? I think that is bullshit. Individually, weapons need to be balanced with eachother.
The duel was a mere illustration. All I am saying is that versatility in weapon choice does not matter for the individual player, because you can't take 14 polearms with you. You spawn with 1 polearm.

Your 100 rounds of battle scenario is flawed. Imagine 1 player playing a 10000 rounds each with every (top tier) polearm, then the same player playing a 10000 rounds each with every (top tier) 2h. If within the class the results are equal = internal balance achieved, if polearm compared to 2h have equal results = class balance achieved. Having a wide variety of polearms to pick from does not affect the class balance here, and it doesn't in reality either.

yea because shield breaker knockdown hores rear 0.7(0.9 when loomed) weight more and 6 dmg more on stab dosen't matter

but hey you right because "2hender" can pick up greate axe or barmace next round

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Strudog on May 17, 2013, 01:36:39 am
Arguing is useless, us polearmers will just respec

R.I.P POLEARM


(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Thomek on May 17, 2013, 01:51:52 am
(click to show/hide)

But yeah, since the katana should and has always been the fastest 2h in cRPG, I'd say nerf longsword with -1 speed.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Casimir on May 17, 2013, 02:00:20 am
All shield breaking 2h are unbalanced unlike polearms. Ignoring that mallus is stupid as it's effect is considerable in many situations. Anyone suggesting 2h axe breakers are OP is taking the piss.

I'd never deny that 2hs are powerful, but anyone who thinks that these classes are seriously unbalanced at this current state then you're clearly ignoring the facts.

The two classes as a whole are as closely balanced as they've ever been. Both are incredibly effective and in the right hands can easily beat the other.



Stop blaming class wide imbalance as an excuse for ingame failings.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Gurnisson on May 17, 2013, 02:05:13 am
Yes, 2h wins in an individual situation. Pole has a huge advantage in a group situation (the ones were the game is actually balanced around).

Is it really that huge? The stab of the greatswords are a bit worse off compared to the dedicated support polearms in a mass melee scenario, while being a lot better for small 1v1 or when outnumbered. A greatsword is a much better weapon for group combat than say a poleaxe, just because of the ridiculousness of the 2h stab. Having been a pikeman for a long time, I've also found the urge to try out 2h in mass melee too, and the superiority of polearms is way exaggerated.


Also, polearms doesn't have access to the best cavalry weapons, that's the 1h class. 1h cavalry is better than lance cavalry.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Casimir on May 17, 2013, 02:07:42 am
Also, polearms doesn't have access to the best cavalry weapons, that's the 1h class. 1h cavalry is better than lance cavalry.

2h cav pisses all over inferior scrublord 1h cav.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: IG_Saint on May 17, 2013, 02:27:03 am
Is it really that huge? The stab of the greatswords are a bit worse off compared to the dedicated support polearms in a mass melee scenario, while being a lot better for small 1v1 or when outnumbered. A greatsword is a much better weapon for group combat than say a poleaxe, just because of the ridiculousness of the 2h stab. Having been a pikeman for a long time, I've also found the urge to try out 2h in mass melee too, and the superiority of polearms is way exaggerated.

Also, polearms doesn't have access to the best cavalry weapons, that's the 1h class. 1h cavalry is better than lance cavalry.

I disagree, I'd say greatswords are a lot worse off. I'd rather face 2 greatswords users than a pikeman+any other melee. I think the greatswords vs poleaxes are more closely balanced. Greatswords have the ridiculous stab and slightly more range on slashes (I think), poleaxes have shieldbreaking or knockdown and more base damage (in cut mode, not sure what the secondary mode's stats are). Getting knocked down in group combat can be extremely deadly.

As to cav, I ignored 1hs because the thread said polearm vs 2h. Between those 2 there is no debate which has the beter cav weapons.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Prpavi on May 17, 2013, 09:18:06 am
I am not really whining though am I, I am just stating that: 1) Greatswords are versatile in battle, 2) Having access to a variety of weapon types is not a valid argument in a class balance thread, 3) 2h is very easy to use, 4) TOR!

Disagree on any of these points?

I don't think hoplite and piker are really the polearms we are discussing here, but for the record, ashwood pike is OP, longspear is balanced but is gay to play now, pike could use a considerable buff. I'd think we are rather comparing 4D polearms to two handers. 'Polearms are a utility class', well that is just bullshit. 4D polearms are general infantry weapons, just like 2h. I think the balance between these is quite okay, really. I'd just like to see that 2h would glance a little more when people do sloppy swings and not ignore buildings and teammates as much. So all the scrub mediocre 2h heroes wouldn't do as well as they do now because they play an easy mode class.

Yes a wide variety of polearms does make them a utility class, sry but you can't really balance weapon with weapon and i think in any game or rl scenario a bardiche user will get spammed to shit by a longsword user. you can't really balance a huge stick with a chunk of heavy metal on top and a fine crafted sword. polearms are longer, slower and have higher damage. all the traits needed for a great teamplay.

I think the main reason for polearm users to feel the way they feel are animations. yes i agree that 2h animations are better and i personally feel i have better control and glance less. This is the reason when i played polearms i like playing with bamboo more than lhb or glb. i always saw polearms as a team support weapon which works fantastic in a group and is weaker solo while 2her were the other way around.

I agree that a group of 2her will get the shit beaten out of them by a group of polearmers.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: rufio on May 17, 2013, 09:22:43 am
Is it really that huge? The stab of the greatswords are a bit worse off compared to the dedicated support polearms in a mass melee scenario, while being a lot better for small 1v1 or when outnumbered. A greatsword is a much better weapon for group combat than say a poleaxe, just because of the ridiculousness of the 2h stab. Having been a pikeman for a long time, I've also found the urge to try out 2h in mass melee too, and the superiority of polearms is way exaggerated.


Also, polearms doesn't have access to the best cavalry weapons, that's the 1h class. 1h cavalry is better than lance cavalry.

in my experience, 2handers suffer the greatest stabstunn on block, and have higher glance rates than polearm stabs. but ye the stab is really strong when it dousnt glance. i do find the shorter 2handers to have tomuch damage thow. On another note, polearm knockdowns and shieldbreakers are supperior just because they are ballanced and most 2handers arent wich is a  big difference when in chaotic fights and needing to block fast.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: FRANK_THE_TANK on May 17, 2013, 09:23:08 am
2h cav pisses all over inferior scrublord 1h cav.

Lies distortions and bullshit! I'll not have it!
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Strudog on May 17, 2013, 09:24:20 am
I disagree, I'd say greatswords are a lot worse off. I'd rather face 2 greatswords users than a pikeman+any other melee. I think the greatswords vs poleaxes are more closely balanced. Greatswords have the ridiculous stab and slightly more range on slashes (I think), poleaxes have shieldbreaking or knockdown and more base damage (in cut mode, not sure what the secondary mode's stats are). Getting knocked down in group combat can be extremely deadly.

As to cav, I ignored 1hs because the thread said polearm vs 2h. Between those 2 there is no debate which has the beter cav weapons.

Teamplaying with a poleaxe is one the hardest things to do, 1/2 of the time you are killing teamates, simply because the stab is useless on it compared to the greatsword. With this in mind you either have to side swing which is not ideal for group combat or use the overhead which makes you vulnerable.


I agree that a group of 2her will get the shit beaten out of them by a group of polearmers.

Did you really just say that?
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Prpavi on May 17, 2013, 09:42:01 am
Teamplaying with a poleaxe is one the hardest things to do, 1/2 of the time you are killing teamates, simply because the stab is useless on it compared to the greatsword. With this in mind you either have to side swing which is not ideal for group combat or use the overhead which makes you vulnerable.

Did you really just say that?

yup, hoplites, poleaxes, spears vs greatswords, morningstars and mauls that don't crush. definitely

not 5v5 but like mentioned before 50v50
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Kafein on May 17, 2013, 10:31:39 am
There's much more to support than just stab length people.

Polearms are best support because each time they hit, the victim's movement speed is set to 0, which is a pretty big deal. The hardest players to kill in a group of allies are those that take advantage of the weird bugs that happen whenever they get hit and can still move (which means not getting hit by a polearm) such as running through other people. The ability to easily facehug stab with the "short" polearms is also very important. In tightly packed fights even a pitch fork is a better support weapon than a greatsword. 2h stabs are not to be laughed at, primarily because they fucking hurt, but they don't match as pure support.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: DaveUKR on May 17, 2013, 11:06:20 am
2h is a lot easier to use. Every strat battle I see people with morningstars run into a crowd and swing it around, sometimes getting like 5 kills. Then I decide to try it with my bec de corbin, glance, glance, glance, glance. 2h gets stuck less and 2h does not glance at shitty angles. Ever wondered why every mediocre player on siege uses a 2h? Because spamming LMB with it is oh so darn succesful.
Tor is one of the best players of this mod, he is right up there with Chase, Gurnisson and Blueberry Muffin. Sit down and show some respect.

Okay. You speak a lot about theory. Lets take last strat battle. Absolutely best KDs on their sides and both in top3 by kills. Guess what classes? Polearmers, if you want to specify - long spear users.
Side 1:
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Side 2:
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Nothing to say that Strudog spent 1/3 of the battle inside of the village protecting spawn from cav.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Panos on May 17, 2013, 11:13:46 am
Okay. You speak a lot about theory. Lets take last strat battle. Absolutely best KDs on their sides and both in top3 by kills. Guess what classes? Polearmers, if you want to specify - long spear users.
Side 1:
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Side 2:
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Nothing to say that Strudog spent 1/3 of the battle inside of the village protecting spawn from cav.


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Dave, show the whole truth at least.

Mauwits, Burak and Phase, top the scoreboard.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: rufio on May 17, 2013, 11:36:33 am
pretty ballanced it seems  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Panos on May 17, 2013, 11:40:31 am
pretty ballanced it seems  :rolleyes:

Most people here said, that polearms are dominant on battles, and yet, 3 out of 6 that top, are 2hander spammers.

Yes...pretty ballanced indeed  :|

Edit for what Idzo said : Ive seen Gurni playing as a 2hander, still a beast.   I`ve seen Strudog playing 2h aswell and he did pretty good.

Now on the other hand, Ive never seen Mauwits playing other class, and Phase when he was playing polearms, he was the least, mediocre.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Idzo on May 17, 2013, 11:40:59 am
There are few poleguys who can make positive k/d on strat battle and that guys are good in every class.

On other hand...

Most people here said, that polearms are dominant on battles

Cant be dominant, you can even swing with it without hitting someone(firendly). only stab and overhead which are fucked up long time ago and even more fucked up with turn rate nerf!
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: DaveUKR on May 17, 2013, 12:11:49 pm

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Dave, show the whole truth at least.

Mauwits, Burak and Phase, top the scoreboard.

You want the whole truth?

Gurni 2,54 KD
Mauwits 2,53 KD
Strudog 2,25 KD
Phase 2,09 KD
Burak 1,38 KD

In top 3 medium KD of a 2hander is 2.0, polearms 2.4. Also Burak was using Great Maul all the time, camping in the small breach killing charging enemies. My last 5 gens were 2 polearm gens, 1 2h gen, 2 shielder gens. Polearmer was so adorable. Why do you even play polearms if you don't like it or think its underpowered? All items definitely need tweaking but saying that some certain classes are underpowered - it's just wrong.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Lannistark on May 17, 2013, 12:13:25 pm
As everyone is pointing out in here, 2h has better animations, feinting is a tad easier, and you can hitslash quite often with that left to right trick. (Right swing is incredibly fast and can be easily combined with the stab to pull of those crazy feints some people like Atze or Seph do - the nativeish feints)

I've played as a 2h nearly all the time in cRPG, and at first I was having trouble fighting polearms, more than other 2h. This is because polearms with long reach and acceptable speed (such as the glaive, or elegant poleaxe) can outreach any 2h, except in stab mode. I would always get a taste of that block his attack, then try to swing mine and get hit because of his backpedalling footwork (oh the irony)

The stab mode comparison is different. They serve for different purposes. After trying both classes what I can say is:

· 2h stab is an easy stab, a very powerful move. Everyone can use it, and be successful with it because there is no mastering involved in it. The only mastering I've seen of the 2h stab is actually not using it at all, and that, our friend GTX was very good at. It is because 2h stab is so scary, he just mantained it and closed in at the last moment knowing the opponent would not risk it not to block. Once closed in, GTX would always have the advantage, and he'd repeat that every single time with the aid of good footwork. GTX would actually never use the stab as an attack, just as a feint or to confuse opponents.

· Polearm's stab is different, but it should not be underestimated. In fact, in the hands of a good player, polestab becomes increasingly useful, rather than 2h stab. Polearm's stab is short, and can be outranged easily by a 2h. However, it is intended to be use in short-range, since it rarely glances. The animation is so fast it easily grants a second move after the opponent blocked your former one. I've had a lot of trouble fighting NuberT and his polearms in a duel. I'd block his first swing, then watch how he'd easily stab me right afterwards as my stab is not fast enough to catch up with his. This is in fact another way of spamming polearms have, that many cannot seem to appreciate because it is not as obvious as in the 2h class. One must know when and how to do it, whereas the 2h stab just can't go wrong. The thing is, when fighting good players, it is likely they are all cautious about the 2h stab - everyone knows it is dangerous. But who can expect at first a second hit coming from below from a seemingly "nerfed in reach" animation that counters your stab easily in close range? That is the point.

Now, I'm not intending to defend 2h in any way vs polearms. I know how polearms can be a far more difficult class to master - that is actually the point I'm trying to make. Polearm is tougher to master, but there are some aces you can use once you learn the class well. The reason why 2h is generally believed to be a superior class is because it does not take a genius to learn why it is overpowered.

Edit: I'd like 2 things to happen. Bringing back the turn rate speed of SOME polearms, not all. And leaving 2h unchanged, it was already nerfed, and the point is not to balance this game by nerfing, it should be by buffing. Otherwise some day this will end in turn-based combat.

NOTE: If you are fighting a longsword user, then you might as well give up for that shit IS overpowered.  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Panos on May 17, 2013, 12:16:09 pm
In top 3 medium KD of a 2hander is 2.0, polearms 2.4. Also Burak was using Great Maul all the time, camping in the small breach killing charging enemies. My last 5 gens were 2 polearm gens, 1 2h gen, 2 shielder gens. Polearmer was so adorable. Why do you even play polearms if you don't like it or think its underpowered? All items definitely need tweaking but saying that some certain classes are underpowered - it's just wrong.


Because there are some people who, still play the mod to have fun.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Prpavi on May 17, 2013, 12:19:58 pm
Looks like you're not having much fun with your choice, maybe try switching it up  :wink:
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Panos on May 17, 2013, 12:23:48 pm
Looks like you're not having much fun with your choice, maybe try switching it up  :wink:

Indeed, maybe I should buy  a kuyak and a 2h sword, and start abusing broken game mechanics endlessly , oh boy, that sounds like fun to me.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: DaveUKR on May 17, 2013, 12:32:54 pm
Indeed, maybe I should buy  a kuyak and a 2h sword, and start abusing broken game mechanics endlessly , oh boy, that sounds like fun to me.

Longspears can kill people on point blank, isn't it broken game mechanic? Pretty much all polearms are using broken game mechanics because native warband wasn't made for long polearms (from which we have the majority) that's why you can deal shitloads of damage on point blank while you actually hit with a wooden part of your weapon. This game is just broken overall, you have to deal with it.

Also you have to deal with the fact that none of QQ threads had any success. If you want to change something - you go make a detailed plan how to fix it. Otherwise it's just a pile of whine with tears.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: peter_afca7 on May 17, 2013, 12:33:38 pm
Don`t nerf 2h swords, just give polethrust to all greatswords. Plain simple
if you do this you should just remove them and place them into polearm WPF, plz think before you make stupid thoughts
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Panos on May 17, 2013, 12:39:18 pm
if you do this you should just remove them and place them into polearm WPF, plz think before you make stupid thoughts

Moron, flamberge thrust doesnt require pole WPF.

Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: peter_afca7 on May 17, 2013, 12:49:29 pm
Moron, flamberge thrust doesnt require pole WPF.
nope but if you remove 2H trust from greatswords why the hell would anyone want to be 2H cause then polearm is way better and the stab is what makes the difference
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Mr_Oujamaflip on May 17, 2013, 12:52:38 pm
While I've spent most of my time in CRPG playing as a 2her I've never really used the more abusable ones in battle, only really in Strat battles where my Katana is sadly never available.

I tend to lean towards the shorter 2h weapons because that's what I'm used to but I regularly find myself getting beat quite easily when I use the greatswords compared to if I was using something like a Morningstar. This is probably due to the length being closer to that of my Katana but even so when I'm in a situation that requires more length I'm far more likely to grab a dropped longspear or pike to use temporarily.

On the duel server (a place I rarely go) I've recently been rolling with 0wpf with random weapons on the floor that aren't 2h. I've had a lot of success with the Iron Staff and a few of the longer 1h weapons as well. I also find that 1h players are the ones I have the most trouble with other than the usual exceptional players that casually murder me on a daily basis.

Now I don't care about the stats of the weapons or who is using them but it seems to me from a playing perspective that it's the length that is the issue. The greatswords outreach lances (which is just stupid) but also rather fail in clustered battle situations whereas the longer polearms are very good at stabbing into crowds accurately and are very effective at dealing with cavalry. Given that most of the complaints here are purely down to the effectiveness of the greatswords nerf their stabbing range and great success may be found.

In regards to speed some of the shorter poles are hilarious to use in close situations, I've been grabbing Becs on strat battles and just flailing like an idiot and getting kills because they're fast and pierce, same thing with the staffs just the blunt damage gives some knockdowns. Compare these to the longswords and bastard swords they're on a similar footing but I've found the poles are a bit more effective simply due to the damage types. In duels however the 2hs are ridiculous because of their speed. Nerf the speeds a little and everyone is happy.

I've also found the longer weapons can cause some serious blockstuns. The GLAs, Glaive and greatswords do this to me regularly and I hate that shit. While this is probably more a strength matter I don't think the stuns should be so effective unless the weapon is unbalanced cos then it's gonna be harder to block overall.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: NuberT on May 17, 2013, 01:05:17 pm
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Statistics never lie, most requested = most op :P

Miaodao is the most fucked up weapon in my opinion - fucking unchamberable insta swings..
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Prpavi on May 17, 2013, 01:45:15 pm
Indeed, maybe I should buy  a kuyak and a 2h sword, and start abusing broken game mechanics endlessly , oh boy, that sounds like fun to me.

so u never abused a mechanic in this game? you didn't stunlock people and spammed the shit out of them before they removed the pole stun? bitch please...
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Panos on May 17, 2013, 01:47:15 pm
so u never abused a mechanic in this game? you didn't stunlock people and spammed the shit out of them before they removed the pole stun? bitch please...

Stunlock was the only thing that could counter the lolstab, and it got removed like a year ago, while on the other hand, the lolstab is still here.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Strudog on May 17, 2013, 01:50:46 pm
Longspears can kill people on point blank, isn't it broken game mechanic? Pretty much all polearms are using broken game mechanics because native warband wasn't made for long polearms (from which we have the majority) that's why you can deal shitloads of damage on point blank while you actually hit with a wooden part of your weapon. This game is just broken overall, you have to deal with it.

Also you have to deal with the fact that none of QQ threads had any success. If you want to change something - you go make a detailed plan how to fix it. Otherwise it's just a pile of whine with tears.

No offence Dave but every time the 2handers complain about a class they get nerfed instantly, whereasa  polearmer complains about 2handers the whole community is up in arms and nothing gets done.

The Longspear was nerfed with the turn rate Nerf and the fact the damage is halved when you do face hugging hits, which i believe is fair enough and i have adapted to this and probably become a better player because of it.

The fact 2 hander stab can do eveything a longspear can do, with the face hugging stab and all that make it seem that it would be reasonable to agree to a nerf to the 2h lol stab.

But hey im 1 Longspear against a whole community of 2handers so let me QQ
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Prpavi on May 17, 2013, 01:52:21 pm
Stunlock was the only thing that could counter the lolstab, and it got removed like a year ago, while on the other hand, the lolstab is still here.

i agree that the stab has too big of a reach and lasts too long, same as the stab with a pike.

but i also hate fucking onehanded leftswing spam to the face faster than my eye can see.

sadly there are the reasons that make people play those classes.

i find xbow mechanic more broken than any of the melee mechanics for a simple fact they do not require a skill similar to PD.

new game is coming, we can hope these issues will be adressed in Battlegrounds and expect less and less from this mod, i really doubt much will change from now on.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: owens on May 17, 2013, 02:00:54 pm
Only thing wrong with 2H is the dislocation of the elbow on every stab.  :wink:




and longsword...
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Tindel on May 17, 2013, 02:56:39 pm
A rule in a online computer game is: "If something is OP it will be played alot more than everything else"

Yet there are not that many 2h players, about the same as polearm players, and less than shielder players.

I think the "classes" are well balanced with strong and weak points. There is still certain weapons that are too good or not good enough though.



Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Teeth on May 17, 2013, 03:04:53 pm
So you think it is okay that a Danish is a better weapon than a Poleaxe (hypothetical scenario, calm your tits)
yea because shield breaker knockdown hores rear 0.7(0.9 when loomed) weight more and 6 dmg more on stab dosen't matter

but hey you right because "2hender" can pick up greate axe or barmace next round

(click to show/hide)
Fuck Bobby, I even said that it was a hypothetical scenario, because I knew something was going to derp about it, and still.


You're using individual examples to make your argument for class balance, that just doesn't work. Of course it's not ok that a danish is better than a poleaxe because a poleaxe user can spawn with a long spear next round. But that situation is absolutely meaningless, because actual servers have a wide array of different classes and different weapons. Then the situation becomes greatswords, great maul, longsword/hbs and whatever 2h cav prefers to use vs poleaxes, GLA, bec, glaive, pikes, long maul, all the hoplite weapons and the lances. AKA best dueling weapons, best crushthrough and crappy cav weapons vs some rather good dueling weapons, best support weapons (by far), far beter 1h/shield choice, second best crushthrough (isn't saying much, but still) and the best cav weapons.

Yes, 2h wins in an individual situation. Pole has a huge advantage in a group situation (the ones were the game is actually balanced around).

Care to explain why it is flawed? Your example is flawed, simply because you again assume cRPG is balanced around one person. It isn't. You can't talk about class balance and then use 1 person as an example. 1 person just isn't a good representative of the class! Class balance is about the balance of the class vs the rest of the classes. You can't just take 1 person from each class, see how they match up to each and call it balanced/unbalanced based on that.
Balance is in fact based on what one individual can do with one weapon, this is weapon balance. Class balance is the same thing, but then bigger. I am just going to explain step by step how I think balancing is done and should be done and I wonder where I lose you.

Internal balance
Imagine a perfect player, he plays the game perfectly with whatever class he plays with. This is the individual I talk about, he is representative for an entire class because he is the perfect player and therefore represents the maximum anyone would be able to do with a class. If this player plays a 100 rounds with a Poleaxe and then a 100 rounds with a Long Hafted Blade. These 100 rounds are on a battle server, not a duel server. So it is an individual, but who fights in a group versus another group, although talking about an individual, this does in fact include teamplay. An individual having to deal with everything battle has to offer, using either the Poleaxe or the Long Hafted Blade. If these weapons perform equally well, Poleaxe is balanced with the Long Hafted Blade. This is weapon balance, although an ideal scenario that is impossible to even get close to, I know for a fact that this is how it is done.

Let's say all (top tier) polearms perform equally well according to this scenario. Internal balance within the polearm class has been achieved, right? In this case a Longspear, would on average do as good as a Poleaxe, which would do as good as a GLB, and so on. All polearms would be balanced with eachother. Agreed?

Let's say all (top tier) 2h perform equally well in according to this scenario. Internal 2h balance has been achieved. Which means that a Danish would on average do as good as a Flamberge, a Great Maul and so on.

Class Balance
Now we move on to class balance. Having acquired at least a reasonable level of internal balance is required for discussions about class balance to have any use. Class balance is achieved when the internally balanced 2h, perform equally well as the internally balanced polearms. So Danish = Flamberge = Glaive = Poleaxe = Ashwood Pike = Miaodao = Longspear, effectivity wise. This is what class balance ideally is, which is again impossible to attain, but still what is attempted to attain.

Let's say the classes are unbalanced. Again, you can only talk about class balance if internal balance has atleast been achieved somewhat. Otherwise you can only discuss the balance between single weapons. So Danish = Flamberge = Longsword = Great Maul > Poleaxe = Longspear = GLB = War Spear. Which would mean that the 'polearm class' needs a buff. Which means that the internally balanced polearms, need either an overall class buff, by speeding up the polearm animations or something, or every polearm needs to get an individual buff, to not upset internal class balance.

This is simply what class balance is and this is how you would determine it. Which brings me back to my original statement that having a wide variety within polearm weapon types is not an argument for class balance. Class balance are the internal balances of one class compared to the internal balance of another class. You can only make use of one weapon at all times. When I am using a Poleaxe I do not have access to the 230 length stab of a Longspear, the 35p stab of a Long Awlpike, the 46c of a GLB, the crushtrough of a Long Maul and so on. Which means a Poleaxe is as strong as the things the Poleaxe itself has to offer, not any stronger. Which means the Poleaxe in itself needs to be equal to Danish, a Longspear needs to be equal to a Flamberge and a Flamberge needs to be equal to a Danish.



So imagine 100 rounds of battle of equally skilled teams one team 100 2hs and the other 100 polearms, equal distribution among the teams of the 3 main classes, infantry, ranged and cav, would the win percentage be 50/50? Then it's balanced.

This was your scenario for determining class balance. One look at the stats in the game and you would see that this is not how it is done in this game, or intended to be done. How would this even work? How would you play ranged with a 2h? How would you determine archer - 2h balance then. You can with my scenario. Secondly, this allows for great internal disbalance, and you have stated yourself that a Danish should be equal to a Poleaxe. This scenario does not reconcile internal balance and class balance, which simply makes it incorrect.

This is the best I can do, I hope you get why having a wide variety in weapon types within polearms is not a valid argument in a class balance thread, because I stand by my statement that it is not.

(All balance statements in this post were used for illustrating purposes only and do not reflect my actual opinion of the ingame balance, don't do it Bobby)

Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: dreadnok on May 17, 2013, 03:05:39 pm
I don't see any difference. They're both for cunt players
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Tyr_ on May 17, 2013, 03:09:01 pm

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Dave, show the whole truth at least.

Mauwits, Burak and Phase, top the scoreboard.

Phase is asian, so you cant take him into account without making your argument invalid. He has to be pro!
Burak has a str build afaik, and lets be honest, strenght build makes every class easy mode except arbalester.
And there is no significant difference between mauwits and gurnis/strudogs K/D
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Teeth on May 17, 2013, 03:22:23 pm
Okay. You speak a lot about theory. Lets take last strat battle. Absolutely best KDs on their sides and both in top3 by kills. Guess what classes? Polearmers, if you want to specify - long spear users.
Side 1:
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Side 2:
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Nothing to say that Strudog spent 1/3 of the battle inside of the village protecting spawn from cav.
Hah, classic. You want to be an item balancer and you take Strat battles as your reference?

It is true, long stabby weapons, whether it's a Pike, Longspear or a hoplite weapon, are the undisputed kings of Strategus field and village battles. Why? Simple, they are the best support weapons and because of constant respawns, there is simply always someone to support, which allows you to use the weapon in an environment that maximizes its efficiency for one and a half hour straight. Ever tried playing an offensive ladder siege with a Longspear though, without actually gaining a foothold? They get outshined by far by Steel Picks, Morningstars and Great Mauls, and that is why you don't use Strategus scores as a balance argument.

Oh my god DaveUKR got 60-0 in Strat with an Arbalest, OP, nurf.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Arthur_ on May 17, 2013, 03:29:20 pm
Polearms are inferior to 2handers.

Slower, same damage, the lolstab can outreach swings, ghostrange, never bounce, histslashes.


I agree, with Gunri, polestagger was a total bullshit, but for mother of god, NERF 2HANDERS a bit.


panos learn 2 play nub, 2h is hard mod pole easy shit
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: DaveUKR on May 17, 2013, 03:38:40 pm
Hah, classic. You want to be an item balancer and you take Strat battles as your reference?

It is true, long stabby weapons, whether it's a Pike, Longspear or a hoplite weapon, are the undisputed kings of Strategus field and village battles. Why? Simple, they are the best support weapons and because of constant respawns, there is simply always someone to support, which allows you to use the weapon in an environment that maximizes its efficiency for one and a half hour straight. Ever tried playing an offensive ladder siege with a Longspear though, without actually gaining a foothold? They get outshined by far by Steel Picks, Morningstars and Great Mauls, and that is why you don't use Strategus scores as a balance argument.

Oh my god DaveUKR got 60-0 in Strat with an Arbalest, OP, nurf.

I tend not to take Strat fights into account but Panos wanted it. People tend to read only those parts of text that they want to read. If you reread my posts you would clearly see that I'm not stating that polearms are better or even as good as 2h. It's obvious to everyone that 2hs are better if you gather all the facts. I was just trying to say that these classes have little bit different purposes and the gap between 2h and polearms in balance is not that big.

Players tend to compare incomparable things. You can't say that arbalest is better than a longspear on any distance more than 5 meters even though it's obvious.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Knitler on May 17, 2013, 03:39:26 pm
I´d really like to respec to 2h my old friend and you show how easy it is in duels and stuff ... but nope, i want something more challenging ;)
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Teeth on May 17, 2013, 03:40:15 pm
I´d really like to respec to 2h my old friend and you show how easy it is in duels and stuff ... but nope, i want something more challenging ;)
Hoplite in transitional armour?
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Knitler on May 17, 2013, 03:40:33 pm
Hoplite in transitional armour?

Just for battle :-D
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Casimir on May 17, 2013, 03:41:58 pm
I´d really like to respec to 2h my old friend and you show how easy it is in duels and stuff ... but nope, i want something more challenging ;)

Wait don't you run around in lordly transitional armor and abuse awlpike lolstab?  :P
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Knitler on May 17, 2013, 03:43:25 pm
Wait don't you run around in lordly transitional armor and abuse awlpike lolstab?  :P

After you get on an higher level you automatically use better stuff cause you can survive their upkeep, and yes. But still 2h is fucking easy, everybody can handle it, and with some little tricks like abusing the animation, shaking/wiggling around abit .... spinning, stuff like that its very easy.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Prpavi on May 17, 2013, 04:03:04 pm
hihi u polearmers are so hipster  :mrgreen:

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Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Strudog on May 17, 2013, 04:16:56 pm
hihi u polearmers are so hipster  :mrgreen:

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Prpavi i think you are the only player that makes 2h look crap, oh and Harddrada too
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Prpavi on May 17, 2013, 04:18:47 pm
Prpavi i think you are the only player that makes 2h look crap, oh and Harddrada too

am i supposed to get offended? lol

played both classes love them both, agree lolstab is bull just like pikestab, wheres the problem?
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Knitler on May 17, 2013, 04:18:59 pm
hihi u polearmers are so hipster  :mrgreen:

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Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: rufio on May 17, 2013, 04:22:25 pm
After you get on an higher level you automatically use better stuff cause you can survive their upkeep, and yes. But still 2h is fucking easy, everybody can handle it, and with some little tricks like abusing the animation, shaking/wiggling around abit .... spinning, stuff like that its very easy.

ezzzzzzzzzz brah ezzzzzzzzzzzzzz 1 direction insta stab way harder man
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Idzo on May 17, 2013, 04:27:26 pm
ezzzzzzzzzz brah ezzzzzzzzzzzzzz 1 direction insta stab way harder man

Block down.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Fartface on May 17, 2013, 04:30:27 pm
That coming from a Templar is adorable , let me adopt it! geez!
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Revo142 on May 17, 2013, 04:43:00 pm
After playing this game for 18 gens using multiple different classes, you really can't help but notice how painfully fucked up 2 Hander's are.  I'm trying to be as unbiased and concise as possible;


2Hander's have ridiculously fast and smooth animations with huge hit boxes which deal full or near full damage no matter which part of the animation you get hit with, or where the fuck you are standing in relation to the guy swinging.


The stab has +80 reach, which means a Longsword thrust will outreach even an Awlpike (Anyone else see an issue with that alone?).  Because of the reach as well as another point made below, Greatswords make some of the best anti-cav weapons. 


The animation also makes it so that a person can get stabbed from the split fucking instant the animation starts, all the way until, or even past the end when your character is pulling the sword back.  Many times I swear I get hit and hit with it after the animation finishes (Same goes with 2H overheads).  When I can pick up a 2H sword and top scoreboards using it as a support weapon with only the thrust animation, something is wrong.


Why would I go anything other then 2H when I can out melee an infantry group by abusing overpowered animations and huge chamber hitboxes(another point I didn't mention), turn around, instantly switch roles to anti-cav, take down two incoming lancers effortlessly with lolstabs, look really pro while doing all of this, rinse and repeat?

GG devs.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Falka on May 17, 2013, 04:44:46 pm
Just for battle :-D

and siege.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: IG_Saint on May 17, 2013, 04:51:14 pm
This is weapon balance, although an ideal scenario that is impossible to even get close to, I know for a fact that this is how it is done.
Just curious, but how do you know this? I always assumed the balance team worked more on gut feeling than anything else.

You make a persuasive argument teeth, but I'm still not completely convinced. I still disagree with talking about class balance from an individuals perspective. According to your scenario in a perfectly balanced cRPG the lances should perform equally well as the 2h cav weapons. In reality that just isn't the case, you'd presumably call this bad balance. I call this polearms having the advantage of weapon variety. Same thing with pikes/hoplites vs mauls. And that's why 2hs deserve the advantage of having the best dueling weapons. It's compensation for their lack of effectiveness in other areas. Sure that's doesn't help the guy with a poleaxe facing a greatsword, but that does help the class when it's not about an individual. As soon as you add more people to the equation it becomes balanced. 2hs have advantages in one area, polearms in others, averaging out to "balanced"

Your view of internal and class balance is certainly interesting and in a perfect world it might actually work. In reality it just has to many flaws to a be a practical approach to balancing. As an example how would you ever balance the lances vs 2h cav weapons? I can't see a way to ever achieve a good balance between those 2. In your view that's unbalanced, in my view it's fine as long as 2hs are compensated in some other area. It might be unbalanced from an individuals perspective, but not from a class (as in lot's of people) perspective.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: rufio on May 17, 2013, 05:13:01 pm
(click to show/hide)

as good as all polearms rear cav brah, and trust me as a coucher alt 2 handers are free kills, pole arms i dont engage head on. also like mentioned earlier, 2hander haz the hardest blockstun on stab, and glance way more. gg wp , afk
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Leesin on May 17, 2013, 05:19:15 pm
I just think the Bamboo spear needs a buff so I don't get stunned everytime someone blocks my thrust.

That is all.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Casimir on May 17, 2013, 05:19:32 pm
That coming from a Templar is adorable , let me adopt it! geez!

Wut? Who are you and what are you saying?
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Gurnisson on May 17, 2013, 05:19:52 pm
2hander haz the hardest blockstun on stab

one word, pikes
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Leesin on May 17, 2013, 05:25:12 pm
Wut? Who are you and what are you saying?

Fuck him up Debo

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Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Fartface on May 17, 2013, 05:29:40 pm
Wut? Who are you and what are you saying?
I said Templars are cute , and I want to adopt one.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Knitler on May 17, 2013, 05:38:14 pm
I´d really like to respec to 2h my old friend and you show how easy it is in duels and stuff ... but nope, i want something more challenging ;)

Why so much hate against my post :-D?

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Fartface on May 17, 2013, 05:42:39 pm
Why so much hate against my post :-D?

(click to show/hide)
Congratulations on doing well in heavy armour and with a claymore in Siege , this definatly changes my mind . Yep 2handers are definatly way better than Polearms.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: IG_Saint on May 17, 2013, 05:50:39 pm
he used an awlpike...
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Falka on May 17, 2013, 05:51:33 pm
Congratulations on doing well in heavy armour and with a claymore in Siege , this definatly changes my mind . Yep 2handers are definatly way better than Polearms.

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Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Knitler on May 17, 2013, 05:54:57 pm
he used an awlpike...

No i didnt oo" Look at the picture, i cant photoshop that good! :-D
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Fartface on May 17, 2013, 06:01:36 pm
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both.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: IG_Saint on May 17, 2013, 06:02:56 pm
Oh shit, I didn't even look at the picture, sorry if I ruined your attempt to prove that 2hs are super overpowered, knitler  :lol:
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Teeth on May 17, 2013, 06:03:28 pm
Just curious, but how do you know this? I always assumed the balance team worked more on gut feeling than anything else.
Well, although the balancing is imperfect, they do in fact do very small tweaks to make sure that every class has different viable options, not just one weapon that is clearly the best. Like the things they did with 2h, I do not say that they were all good, but they seemed to be doing very small balance tweaks to balance strong weapons with other weapons. Imperfect as their efforts may be, the intention looks like tweaking to make every weapon comparably viable.

Just curious, but how do you know this? I always assumed the balance team worked more on gut feeling than anything else.

You make a persuasive argument teeth, but I'm still not completely convinced. I still disagree with talking about class balance from an individuals perspective. According to your scenario in a perfectly balanced cRPG the lances should perform equally well as the 2h cav weapons. In reality that just isn't the case, you'd presumably call this bad balance. I call this polearms having the advantage of weapon variety. Same thing with pikes/hoplites vs mauls. And that's why 2hs deserve the advantage of having the best dueling weapons. It's compensation for their lack of effectiveness in other areas. Sure that's doesn't help the guy with a poleaxe facing a greatsword, but that does help the class when it's not about an individual. As soon as you add more people to the equation it becomes balanced. 2hs have advantages in one area, polearms in others, averaging out to "balanced"

Your view of internal and class balance is certainly interesting and in a perfect world it might actually work. In reality it just has to many flaws to a be a practical approach to balancing. As an example how would you ever balance the lances vs 2h cav weapons? I can't see a way to ever achieve a good balance between those 2. In your view that's unbalanced, in my view it's fine as long as 2hs are compensated in some other area. It might be unbalanced from an individuals perspective, but not from a class (as in lot's of people) perspective.
Thanks for having read the wall of text attentively, appreciate it.

They way I described I think balance works is ideal which is not feasible to fully realise and there are actually exceptions, but I couldn't write that all out. I do indeed think that 2h should be as viable as lancer cav and so on. I disagree with you that when one class is strongest in a certain weapon type, it is okay because a different weapon type is weaker. I'd rather have all weapons to be equally viable. But I guess that is just a point we'll have to agree to disagree on.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: BenonKnight on May 17, 2013, 06:06:34 pm
You can discuss which of those are better but:
Why do you expect changes? You are saying that 2h is too good and pole power should be increased. There is easy solution. Switch your class to 2h. Your next argument is "Im playing for fun, i dont need best class". Thats great. Play worse, in your opinion, polearm class and be happy devs didnt buff it. Time for balancing starts when more than half players are playing same class. As long as all are classes are used, there is no need for balance even if some classes are "better" than others.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Fartface on May 17, 2013, 06:07:05 pm
Well, although the balancing is imperfect, they do in fact do very small tweaks to make sure that every class has different viable options, not just one weapon that is clearly the best. Like the things they did with 2h, I do not say that they were all good, but they seemed to be doing very small balance tweaks to balance strong weapons with other weapons. Imperfect as their efforts may be, the intention looks like tweaking to make every weapon comparably viable.
Thanks for having read the wall of text attentively, appreciate it.

They way I described I think balance works is ideal which is not feasible to fully realise and there are actually exceptions, but I couldn't write that all out. I do indeed think that 2h should be as viable as lancer cav and so on. I disagree with you that when one class is strongest in a certain weapon type, it is okay because a different weapon type is weaker. I'd rather have all weapons to be equally viable. But I guess that is just a point we'll have to agree to disagree on.
Agree to disagree sounds funny.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Tindel on May 17, 2013, 11:20:51 pm
I still have to see a good 2h player say that 2h is OP.

Come on, someone?
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Patoson on May 17, 2013, 11:22:51 pm
Because it was the most fucked up mechanic ever. It still annoys me that ranged weapons have it, but it was worse on polearms. For almost every second hit you could get a free hit to boot, that was impossible for the enemy to defend. How is that not bullshit? I loved either making one-shots to the face with my old long awlpike or hitting them once to the body and getting a free face stab afterwards, pretty much always grabbing a kill every time I made a hit. However, I was one of the first to admit how broken it was and I wanted it gone. It was overpowered.
+1

And the funny thing is it still exists!...................................................in EU DTV! :D

Back on topic, I agree with Panos on replacing great swords's stab for that of polearms. I've always used great swords and it just feels over-powered. Half-swording with them with some polearm wpf is fun and feels more natural, except for the fact that there's no overhead swing and the swing damage is ridiculous.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Tydeus on May 18, 2013, 12:31:18 am
Quite a bit of failed reasoning going on in this thread. Here's a little hint though, 2h will practically always be the most used because it's the most popular outside of video games. Why weren't there lightsabers mimicking other fighting styles until the 4th star wars movie(in order of release)? Because Holywood.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Prpavi on May 18, 2013, 12:33:03 am
Quite a bit of failed reasoning going on in this thread. Here's a little hint though, 2h will practically always be the most used because it's the most popular outside of video games. Why weren't there lightsabers mimicking other fighting styles until the 4th star wars movie(in order of release)? Because Holywood.

lol what?

how did we get to Star Wars and Hollywood in a nerf 2h topic.

gotta love these forums!
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Tydeus on May 18, 2013, 12:34:25 am
lol what?

how did we get to Star Wars and Hollywood in a nerf 2h topic.

gotta love these forums!
Quite a bit of failed reasoning going on in this thread.
Oh man the irony.

Edit: I guess I should really spell things out for people. 2hers as a whole being more popular than polearms should be expected. The rational analysis would be that if there were ever more polearmers than two-handers, it would necessarily imply imbalance favoring poles.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: owens on May 18, 2013, 01:19:24 am
^Tydeus I agree to an extent.

but.. We all know that 2H is a class that has very few counters. I will never approach an aware greatsword user on my horse. Hopliting against a longsword will never work and 2H gets fast, high damage knock down weapons. However I prefer polearm because I want to be able to hoplite, play lance cav and be a long bardiche beast on the one char. I also have to play a fair bit of DTV.

If i knew I was going to be playing in NA so much I would have gone longsword like 3rd gen all those years ago. Much easier with ping better and for duelling in AUS. 

A team of hoplites will probably lose the first round against a team of 2H but have the flexibility to adapt and will win the second round.


You wanted a good player to comment on 2H vs Polearm I am one.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: peter_afca7 on May 18, 2013, 01:39:44 am
No i didnt oo" Look at the picture, i cant photoshop that good! :-D
pick up 2H make screen say you all did it with the 2H ....
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Prpavi on May 18, 2013, 01:57:43 am
Beware the false prophet!

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Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Panos on May 18, 2013, 02:01:46 am
that banner is a fucking beast  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Siiem on May 19, 2013, 10:45:31 pm
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Casimir on May 20, 2013, 03:05:14 am
Jarlek got mad at my pro lobbying skills.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Jarlek on May 20, 2013, 03:58:24 pm
Jarlek got mad at my pro lobbying skills.
Name one.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Casimir on May 20, 2013, 04:00:12 pm
2h cav OP.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: CrazyCracka420 on May 20, 2013, 04:04:03 pm
I think if 2h didn't have massively superior animations, they would be on a more level playing field.  But even with that included, I think polearms and 2h are pretty evenly balanced on the battlefield.  Polearms are more useful for support and breaking shields (or just outright damage that they deliver), 2h's are typically better in tight situations, or when you are off to the side and able to get in 1v1 or 1vmany engagements.  I think when you have good mobs of people fighting together, 2h's are less valuable, but they are more in their 'zone' when there are more skirmishes happening, and less organization.

When it comes to a straight up duel, I think 2h's are obviously at the advantage, but if you have a weapon like a Long Bardiche (89 speed, 140 length) you can put up a pretty good fight by using the length to your advantage (unless they have a 120 length 2h and can outreach you on some animations).   I think a lot of people get lazy when fighting against people with long weapons, they aren't used to people using the max length of their weapons all the time, so you can catch people off guard with the length of some polearms.  But I don't think classes should be balanced based on what they do in a 1v1, it's all about battle and teamwork (even if people don't use it).
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Tibe on May 21, 2013, 05:55:09 pm
Soo I retired to 1h and started playing..... :D
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Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: pepejul on May 21, 2013, 10:36:02 pm
Remove lolstabbing plz...  :(
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Kafein on May 22, 2013, 01:59:30 am
Thanks 2h alt, doing more kills than the rest of my 20 man team :lol:

Also continuous x5 during 4 maps.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Gurnisson on May 22, 2013, 02:29:15 pm
Thanks 2h alt, doing more kills than the rest of my 20 man team :lol:

Also continuous x5 during 4 maps.

Do 1h cav instead. Constant x5 and easiest valour ever. The 7 ps 1h cav build (below) with a heavy horse is game-breaking! :D

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Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Kafein on May 22, 2013, 04:22:11 pm
Do 1h cav instead. Constant x5 and easiest valour ever. The 7 ps 1h cav build (below) with a heavy horse is game-breaking! :D

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Ho yeah saw you do great on EU_1. Cav stopped being really fun for me though, especially without a heirloomed horse it feels exactly like maneuvering a boat, and I seem to have lost the ability to bumpslash too, but that may be because the last cav I tried was 2h.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Mr.K. on May 23, 2013, 01:12:44 am
Do 1h cav instead. Constant x5 and easiest valour ever. The 7 ps 1h cav build (below) with a heavy horse is game-breaking! :D

(click to show/hide)

Oh so it's you. You're quite good as cav. 1H cav prolly is the easiest class in game on EU1 due to shitty tactics and awareness, but that doesn't make 2H lolstabbing any more balanced, does it?
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: peter_afca7 on May 23, 2013, 10:35:21 am
so if we go back to the actual topic...

2H stab beats polearm 4D weapons stab

polearm 2D/1D stab beats 2H stab

 i gues balanced but he 2H OP right so why arguing ....
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Panos on May 23, 2013, 10:49:16 am
so if we go back to the actual topic...

2H stab beats polearm 4D weapons stab

polearm 2D/1D stab beats 2H stab

 i gues balanced but he 2H OP right so why arguing ....

The thing is that 2h stab, outreaches polearm swings aswell, what`s the point of having a BIG POLEARM, if you get outreached by a stab??

lolstab is clearly the most broken animation of this game.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: peter_afca7 on May 23, 2013, 10:57:46 am
The thing is that 2h stab, outreaches polearm swings aswell, what`s the point of having a BIG POLEARM, if you get outreached by a stab??

lolstab is clearly the most broken animation of this game.
with good footwork and the right distance you can let the 2H get the stab stun and you can step in and swing

got to say its easier to use the 2H stab then use the good footwork
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Panos on May 23, 2013, 11:05:07 am
with good footwork and the right distance you can let the 2H get the stab stun and you can step in and swing

got to say its easier to use the 2H stab then use the good footwork

or the devs could just fix the lolstab  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Shpritza on May 23, 2013, 11:11:04 am
or panos could stop saying nerf, fix or remove  the lolstab...   :wink:
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Panos on May 23, 2013, 11:13:52 am
or panos could stop saying nerf, fix or remove  the lolstab...   :wink:

why would I do that??

70% of the 2handers rely on the abuse of the lolstab to get some kills.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: peter_afca7 on May 23, 2013, 11:14:21 am
or the devs could just fix the lolstab  :rolleyes:

can you give a good solution for that or only give the polearm stab...

well the range should stay in my opinion but you shouldnt be able to stab at facehug distance aswel (same for longspear and hOPlite)
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Panos on May 23, 2013, 11:18:27 am
can you give a good solution for that or only give the polearm stab...

well the range should stay in my opinion but you shouldnt be able to stab at facehug distance aswel (same for longspear and hOPlite)


increase the bounce chance A LOT , decrease the retarded speed bonus, even when you backpedal, you get speed bonus, and a small nerf to the damage.


OR


Have Tydeus to make new animatoons  :lol:
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Teeth on May 23, 2013, 11:25:17 am
2H stab beats polearm 4D weapons stab

polearm 2D/1D stab beats 2H stab

 i gues balanced
Now I think balance is fine, but this reasoning is rather flawed in my opinion. You state that 2D/1D polearms beat 2h stabs. These weapons basically only have one good attack, their stab. Giving up the other attacks is what it takes to beat the 2h stab, while 2h has 3 other amazing 40c directions as well as having an awesome stab.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: peter_afca7 on May 23, 2013, 11:31:16 am
Now I think balance is fine, but this reasoning is rather flawed in my opinion. You state that 2D/1D polearms beat 2h stabs. These weapons basically only have one good attack, their stab. Giving up the other attacks is what it takes to beat the 2h stab, while 2h has 3 other amazing 40c directions as well as having an awesome stab.
maybe but if you would give glaive a 2H stab range and those other long ones then there is no reason to use 2H cause polearm has the length on the swing and the stab the thing that makes the difference at this point is that 2H stab is longer and polearm swing is longer and you can decide wat you want and ofcourse you could use the longspear or pike to stab the 2H in da face
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: peter_afca7 on May 23, 2013, 11:33:26 am

increase the bounce chance A LOT , decrease the retarded speed bonus, even when you backpedal, you get speed bonus, and a small nerf to the damage.


OR


Have Tydeus to make new animatoons  :lol:
so actually just make it useless so polearm can be OP are you here for the balance or just to NERF 2H and make polearm OP?
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Panos on May 23, 2013, 11:34:05 am
maybe but if you would give glaive a 2H stab range and those other long ones then there is no reason to use 2H cause polearm has the length on the swing and the stab the thing that makes the difference at this point is that 2H stab is longer and polearm swing is longer and you can decide wat you want and ofcourse you could use the longspear or pike to stab the 2H in da face

oh nice logic there buddy, stop playing your favourite class, so you can counter a broken game mechanic.

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Edit : Useless??

2h swords will be still faster and will have the same damage like polearms.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: peter_afca7 on May 23, 2013, 11:35:47 am
oh nice logic there buddy, stop playing your favourite class, so you can counter a broken game mechanic.

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it aint broken you only listen if there is a NERF 2H NERF 2H retard
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Panos on May 23, 2013, 11:38:37 am
it aint broken you only listen if there is a NERF 2H NERF 2H retard

QQ
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: peter_afca7 on May 23, 2013, 11:40:14 am
well NERF 2H break the game i dont give a fuck
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Panos on May 23, 2013, 11:44:46 am
well NERF 2H break the game i dont give a fuck

no buddy, this is where you are wrong.

Game is already broken due to the lobbyism made by 2handers.

Throwing, Archery, Xbows, Polearms, Lancers


All of those classes got HUGE nerfs over the last patches, and yet, 2h class is the one who keeps getting away with murder everyday.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Molly on May 23, 2013, 11:45:40 am
I am not much into that whole "game mechanic uber-expert discussion"-thing but...

The katana has 27p (MW) on the stab and it takes at least a bit of effort to make it actually hit and not just bounce. So why not leave everything as it is animation-wise and just reduce the stab damage for the big swords that much that it starts to bounce/glance as much as 1h/katana already does. Just make it trickier to hit successfully and profit?
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: peter_afca7 on May 23, 2013, 11:48:39 am
no buddy, this is where you are wrong.

Game is already broken due to the lobbyism made by 2handers.

Throwing, Archery, Xbows, Polearms, Lancers


All of those classes got HUGE nerfs over the last patches, and yet, 2h class is the one who keeps getting away with murder everyday.
keep telling yourself that mate
oh and lancer cav should get a buff
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Gurnisson on May 23, 2013, 11:49:34 am
The only problem with the 2h stab as I see it is that the animation seems far longer active than the others, while being able to dish out good damage at any given point in the animation. The length is fine, damage is fine, but the fact that you can both instastab for full damage and hit someone while retracting your sword at the end of the animation for full damage as well is weird. Polestab and 1h stab is both less forgiving, with a much smaller window to make a successful stab.

The length is what seperates it from the polearms and it shouldn't be made a polearm stab.


Edit:

The katana has 27p (MW) on the stab

Doesn't it have 20p?
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: peter_afca7 on May 23, 2013, 11:50:41 am
The only problem with the 2h stab as I see it is that the animation seems far longer active than the others, while being able to dish out good damage at any given point in the animation. The length is fine, damage is fine, but the fact that you can both instastab for full damage and hit someone while retracting your sword at the end of the animation for full damage as well is weird. Polestab and 1h stab is both less forgiving, with a much smaller window to make a successful stab.

The length is what seperates it from the polearms and it shouldn't be made a polearm stab.
i  totally agree

actually happened alot to me aswell seeing a 2H stab thinking its over walk in still get hit
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: peter_afca7 on May 23, 2013, 11:57:22 am
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most likely it is 20 when MW :D
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Teeth on May 23, 2013, 12:11:57 pm
The only problem with the 2h stab as I see it is that the animation seems far longer active than the others, while being able to dish out good damage at any given point in the animation. The length is fine, damage is fine, but the fact that you can both instastab for full damage and hit someone while retracting your sword at the end of the animation for full damage as well is weird. Polestab and 1h stab is both less forgiving, with a much smaller window to make a successful stab.

The length is what seperates it from the polearms and it shouldn't be made a polearm stab.
Exactly. Polearm stab used to be short but fast and 2h stab used to be long but slow. That was fine, but since they broke all the stabs in the game, 2h stabs can hit early in the animation as easy as polearms. Which makes the polearm stab short but fast and the 2h stab long and fast. This is a problem in my opinion. Then there is the extremely long active animation which you can walk into someone like it has 200 reach, which makes it gain enormous speed bonus as well and do a shit ton of damage.

I would like to see the following changes to the 2h stab:
- Slower chamber time
- Animation active for a shorter period of time

The first thing to make the 2h stab slower, to compensate for it's recently gained ability to insta hit. I guess alternatively they could just unfuck stabs so they work like they used to. Animations should be active for a shorter period of time to prevent very late hitting stabs, which usually do a shit ton of damage anyway. The stab should glance when it is retracting, not do a lot of damage. This would reduce the effective reach and reduce general retarded stab abuse.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Casimir on May 23, 2013, 01:23:15 pm
I love when people cry about lobbyists while demanding nerfs for an entire class based one a single animation. Fix the stab animation and maybe that'll be the end of it.

The fact that this thread suggests a class wide imbalance while it ignores the fact that half of the 2h weapons don't have a stab shows that this lobbying is as narrow minded as any I've seen before.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Jarlek on May 23, 2013, 01:57:06 pm
I love when people cry about lobbyists while demanding nerfs for an entire class based one a single animation. Fix the stab animation and maybe that'll be the end of it.

The fact that this thread suggests a class wide imbalance while it ignores the fact that half of the 2h weapons don't have a stab shows that this lobbying is as narrow minded as any I've seen before.
Yeah. Non-stab 2handers like miaodao really sucks. War cleaver, nodachi and barmace is also pretty bad. Same with morningstar, the bardiches and axes and the mauls.

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Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: peter_afca7 on May 23, 2013, 02:01:21 pm
Yeah. Non-stab 2handers like miaodao really sucks. War cleaver, nodachi and barmace is also pretty bad. Same with morningstar, the bardiches and axes and the mauls.

(click to show/hide)
yeah they are so pro they will kill all polearm players without any skill just swing cause they are longer and faster

 
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Mlekce on May 23, 2013, 02:55:19 pm
did you ever seen hoplites or people fighting with spear without shield?
They are so fast,and deadly. Those spears deal a lot of dmg tbh even on 60 body armor.
Giving them pole stun would be totally op.
You still have good pole weapons like bec,warspear,aswood pike,long spear,long war axe,it is not that bad.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Thomek on May 23, 2013, 03:41:09 pm
I think this conversation really is about 2h longsword up to the Greatswords.

As animation changes are much much harder to do than stat adjustment, I'd say we just nerf the stab on those weapons that need it.

It makes sense realistically, as such a slow, weird stab like they have would have way less inertia and damage than a quick, powerful stab. Maybe buff secondary mode a little? It sees very little use.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Shpritza on May 23, 2013, 03:59:31 pm
...
OR
...

STFU!!

Stop crying because u cant beat every 2Her.
If a 2Her abuses the lolstab as u call it and he or she kills u, thats ur lack of skill (not that i'm saying u lack skill) and i dont see how that is an argument to nerf 2Hers.
All classes have something u can abuse and ppl will abuse it as long as they can.

Just my opinion plz dont flame me Panos remember we are bros.   :mrgreen:   :wink:



p.s. - 2H 4 EVAH!!
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Mlekce on May 23, 2013, 05:07:22 pm
just played as melee and i got one conclusion.
This insta stab 2h have is ridiculous,srsly stop this shit. It is too fast and powerful.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Shpritza on May 23, 2013, 05:25:29 pm
Ok ur correct now to solve ur problem...
...go play something else but then again u'll probably find something there that's OP  :wink:  :mrgreen:

This kinda reminds me of BF3 and the M16A3 story...  :P
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Panos on May 23, 2013, 05:26:35 pm
Ok ur correct now to solve ur problem...
...go play something else but then again u'll probably find something there that's OP  :wink:  :mrgreen:

This kinda reminds me of BF3 and the M16A3 story...  :P

oh shut up already.

You fucking 2h wankers get on my nervrs really.

lolstab is retarded, stop being in denial.

Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Tibe on May 23, 2013, 06:32:26 pm
oh shut up already.

You fucking 2h wankers get on my nervrs really.

lolstab is retarded, stop being in denial.
No its not, its perfectly legit, now that I can stick my fist in their assholes while I hammer them with my butterknife. :twisted: All hail the mighty nudge!
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Shpritza on May 24, 2013, 08:28:28 am
oh shut up already.

You fucking 2h wankers get on my nervrs really.

lolstab is retarded, stop being in denial.

uninstall the game, 2H 4 EVAH!!
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Lord_Bernie_of_Voodoo on May 26, 2013, 09:14:45 pm
The 2H v. Polearm debate can be summed up in these few minutes:

Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on May 26, 2013, 09:21:14 pm
The 2H v. Polearm debate can be summed up in these few minutes:

Poles still don't have nudges.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: ThePoopy on May 27, 2013, 01:35:44 am
the hold is accurate tho
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Lethwin Far Seeker on May 27, 2013, 05:09:37 am
can you give a good solution for that or only give the polearm stab...

well the range should stay in my opinion but you shouldnt be able to stab at facehug distance aswel (same for longspear and hOPlite)

To fix the lolstab all they have to do is nerf the turn speed just like they did to the pole stab a while back.  This wouldn't really change the hilt stabbing\slashing  (thats a hitbox problem) but it would sufficiently negate the problem.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Shpritza on May 27, 2013, 12:44:54 pm
bunch of fucking cry babies
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Panos on May 27, 2013, 12:49:17 pm
bunch of fucking cry babies


wow really??

Since when you turned out to be such a douche..

I guess everyone changes.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Rebelyell on May 27, 2013, 12:57:09 pm
buff longsword
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: owens on May 27, 2013, 01:51:29 pm
 realism buff
The way of the jedi is hard but its rewards great.

+3cut +3p +3 speed
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Rebelyell on May 27, 2013, 02:21:16 pm
and make it cost 30k gold
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Shpritza on May 28, 2013, 02:13:16 pm

wow really??

Since when you turned out to be such a douche..

I guess everyone changes.

dear Panos i'm not a douche it's just i cant stand this shit, buff this nerf that, this class is op this class is for shit and so on, just relax and play the fucking game...how many times it happened to me that i thought i was a victim of a op retarded class or a really op weappon and all those archers that i hate so much and so on, but guess what i never cry on the forums because its retarded like some little girls i just play on or i quit its that simple.
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: rufio on May 28, 2013, 03:50:46 pm

wow really??

Since when you turned out to be such a douche..

I guess everyone changes.

it takes a cunt to know a douche yo
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Smoothrich on May 29, 2013, 07:51:03 am
this thread has the worst english skills in all of the forums, judging from the last 3 pages.  that's 2hand balance talk for you
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: peter_afca7 on May 29, 2013, 08:41:04 am
this thread has the worst english skills in all of the forums, judging from the last 3 pages.  that's 2hand balance talk for you
wy ar yu beng so rute too uz  :(
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: rufio on May 29, 2013, 10:39:08 am
ya olso wah u no callz it murican, dat real name of yor langoooieech, prezitent tinks yo shamefurrr dishpraay to kontry
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Zlisch_The_Butcher on May 29, 2013, 04:16:16 pm
dear Panos i'm not a douche it's just i cant stand this shit, buff this nerf that, this class is op this class is for shit and so on, just relax and play the fucking game...how many times it happened to me that i thought i was a victim of a op retarded class or a really op weappon and all those archers that i hate so much and so on, but guess what i never cry on the forums because its retarded like some little girls i just play on or i quit its that simple.
EYECANCER!!!
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Shpritza on May 30, 2013, 01:34:48 pm
EYECANCER!!!

Hello my goat friend, long time no seen!!  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Polearms vs Two handers
Post by: Artyem on June 02, 2013, 06:31:49 pm
Well, after playing nothing but 2h on my main for a good two years, with polearm alts and eventually two generations as a polearmer, I can say this:

Even with 100+ ping, playing as a two hander is laughably easy.  Most of the time I find myself with very little reason to block, because I can out speed probably 75% of the people I encounter.  I honestly think that 2h wasn't effected at all by the turn rate nerf, seeing as how I can still spin around and use the hilt of my sword to effectively disembowel my enemies, while if the same thing was attempted with most polearms, I would be stuck looking 90 degrees to my left with a blade in my head.

The real advantage I find with polearms, is that they can be wiggled very effectively to seriously confuse your opponent (Kaoklai does this very well), and it's usually not hard to hit around a block or shield.  However, this can still be countered most of the time, since they're usually slower than you and can't feint 2-3 times and still hit you while you're mid swing.

Currently playing polearm / 1h, sometimes I hoplite with a +3 bamboo spear, but on most maps a German poleaxe or my +3 scimitar work best by themselves.


EDIT:

Not saying this or that should be buffed/nerfed, but I do think there may be a slight issue with 2h gameplay.