Polearms vs Two handers

[Teeth]

@Teeth

polearm is a utility class.

you seem to be doing well with poles abusing stabs either as a hoplite or a piker. why whine?

I am not really whining though am I, I am just stating that: 1) Greatswords are versatile in battle, 2) Having access to a variety of weapon types is not a valid argument in a class balance thread, 3) 2h is very easy to use, 4) TOR!

Disagree on any of these points?

I don't think hoplite and piker are really the polearms we are discussing here, but for the record, ashwood pike is OP, longspear is balanced but is gay to play now, pike could use a considerable buff. I'd think we are rather comparing 4D polearms to two handers. 'Polearms are a utility class', well that is just bullshit. 4D polearms are general infantry weapons, just like 2h. I think the balance between these is quite okay, really. I'd just like to see that 2h would glance a little more when people do sloppy swings and not ignore buildings and teammates as much. So all the scrub mediocre 2h heroes wouldn't do as well as they do now because they play an easy mode class.

[Kaoklai]

Making any animations the same across weapon types in pursuit of "balance" is fucking stupid.  The animations are what make weapon types.  You can want them changed but you can't want them to be the same.  That's right, you can't want that.  Sorry, that desire is null and void.  Admittedly, if you're a bad, then 2h is probably the best/easiest class to play.  But one of the best things about M&B is that you can always leverage the unique qualities of the different animations into an advantage.  Every weapon type has things going for it and in large part it's how well you adapt to those differences (in terms of both using and facing them) that defines skill.

And more to OP's point, 2h and pole are both good.  I'm sure you're aware of 2h's strong points so I'll just point out some of pole's. 

1) The rightswing/stab transition is amazing.  I catch everyone off guard with it.  It's one of the best feints in the game. 

2) Wobble holds are extremely effective with polearms, moreso than with 2h in my opinion. 

3) Increased block-stun resistance. 

4) Very easy to double hit with (not talking hiltslashing, though that's still possible).  Move left while rightswinging and stab while moving forward/right immediately after it lands/is blocked (situational, works quite frequently)

5) The stab is fantastic (and hugely underrated).  Just in terms of numbers it generally has monster damage.  It's less likely to whiff early in the animation and it's easy to chain stab with, especially in the midst of battle.  The faster activation on the pole stab also makes it better for incorporating into continuous pressure (i.e. W-key hero).  Wobble holding the stab with shorter polearms is very effective as well. 

6) It is much more difficult to chamber-block polearms.

7) Polearm versatility (which you mentioned) is twofold.  There are versatile weapons that have good cut, good stab, good weight, good length, balanced shieldbreaking, horse-rear, or some combination thereof.  There is also the versatility of totally altering your playstyle by choosing a longspear, pike, 2d polearm, long maul, hopliting, etc.  This isn't necessarily an "advantage" in terms of battlefield performance, but it is one of the positives of speccing pole (and is absolutely an advantage in strat). 

In the end, it's all about the player.  Some people will do amazing with a Great Long Bardiche and be shitty with a LongOPsword.  If anything, I'd like to see the polearm animations completely overhauled as two of them, left and right swing, make no sense visually and the leftswing is useless.  This will never happen, though, much too involved a process. 

[IG_Saint]

2) Having access to a variety of weapon types is not a valid argument in a class balance thread

Of course it is, if we were talking about say poleaxe vs danish greatsword balance it would be a bad argument, but in a 2h vs polearm discussion you need to factor in everything about the classes. The fact that pole can effortlessly switch between the best cav, best support, best shield breakers and the best knockdown weapons is a huge factor in a class balance thread. Balance is not limited to 1 round of battle, balanced implies that overal the 2 weapon classes are equal. So imagine 100 rounds of battle of equally skilled teams one team 100 2hs and the other 100 polearms, equal distribution among the teams of the 3 main classes, infantry, ranged and cav, would the win percentage be 50/50? Then it's balanced.

You use 1 weapon at a time, being able to use 12 different useful ones does not make a class any better at fighting a different class.

Yes it does, because a class isn't limited to one person. A class is lots of people. All you're saying is that versatility in weapon choice doesn't help you in a duel. cRPG isn't balanced around duels and as soon as there are more people involved versatility in weapon choice makes a huge impact. That 100 rounds of battle example? Who do you thinks gonna win that, 2hs? My money is on polearms.

That concludes my devil's advocate part, now my actual opinion about class balance: it's fine, it's been fine for ages, minor tweaks are all that's needed. At the top of my list right now would be nerfing the 1h/2h 2hs back to what they were. Those weapons needed a buff like america needs more fat people.

[Teeth]

Of course it is, if we were talking about say poleaxe vs danish greatsword balance it would be a bad argument, but in a 2h vs polearm discussion you need to factor in everything about the classes. The fact that pole can effortlessly switch between the best cav, best support, best shield breakers and the best knockdown weapons is a huge factor in a class balance thread. Balance is not limited to 1 round of battle, balanced implies that overal the 2 weapon classes are equal.

I simply disagree. So you think it is okay that a Danish is a better weapon than a Poleaxe (hypothetical scenario, calm your tits), because the Poleaxe user can spawn with a Long Spear next round? I think that is bullshit. Individually, weapons need to be balanced with eachother.

All you're saying is that versatility in weapon choice doesn't help you in a duel. cRPG isn't balanced around duels and as soon as there are more people involved versatility in weapon choice makes a huge impact.

The duel was a mere illustration. All I am saying is that versatility in weapon choice does not matter for the individual player, because you can't take 14 polearms with you. You spawn with 1 polearm.

Your 100 rounds of battle scenario is flawed. Imagine 1 player playing a 10000 rounds each with every (top tier) polearm, then the same player playing a 10000 rounds each with every (top tier) 2h. If within the class the results are equal = internal balance achieved, if polearm compared to 2h have equal results = class balance achieved. Having a wide variety of polearms to pick from does not affect the class balance here, and it doesn't in reality either.

[Jarlek]

Of course it is, if we were talking about say poleaxe vs danish greatsword balance it would be a bad argument, but in a 2h vs polearm discussion you need to factor in everything about the classes. The fact that pole can effortlessly switch between the best cav, best support, best shield breakers and the best knockdown weapons is a huge factor in a class balance thread.
-snip-

Excuse me, but wtf are you smoking?
...And why aren't you sharing?

Best cav weapons? Yeah, the lances are polearms and they are the best cav weapons.
Best support? Pikes or mauls are the main melee support weapons. Polearm got pikes, 2hs got mauls. Best support weapons title is evenly split between 2h and poles.
Best shield breakers? That was true before, but with the massive buff to 2h axes 2h is just as good as polearms when it comes to shieldbreaking. More damage for only slightly shorter reach. Only time you want a polearm shieldbreaker over a 2h is if you want the really long, but really slow, ones like GLB. Also take note of the morningstar. A 2-slot shieldbreaker that is also the most damaging pierce weapon in the game. Not something to underestimate. 2h axes are also usable from horse, something polearm axes are not.
Best knockdown weapons? Considering knockdown chance is maxed at 30% and pretty much all knockdown weapons reaches that limit: there really is no way to designate a "best" knockdown weapon. Sure, the LONGEST knockdown weapons are polearm (Quarter Staff and Long Hafted Spiked Mace at 137&138), but the goedendag is pretty close after with it's 117 length and 2h animation bonus reach. You could also argue that 1h got the best knockdown weapons because they are faster (scratch that, staffs are the fastest) and can be used with a shield. Then again, the biggest benefit with knockdown is the free hit, so the knockdown weapon with the most damage would also make sense to consider the "best" knockdown weapon, and the maul&mallet wins there.

[Panos]

I really want to post, but this mod is full of 2hander lobbyism.

Thats ok people, 2hander class is ok, no need to discuss anything else.


P.S : Trading +3 Double Norman Mail for +3 Heavy Kuyak and +3 Long Bardiche for Danish GSword .

#Swag.

[Kafein]

Tor is one of the best players of this mod, he is right up there with Chase, Gurnisson and Blueberry Muffin. Sit down and show some respect.

I'm sorry, hiltslashers are still the spawn of the devil and must die of a pancreas cancer alone in a back street selling their body for meth, no matter how skilled.

[Falka]

Best support? Pikes or mauls are the main melee support weapons. Polearm got pikes, 2hs got mauls. Best support weapons title is evenly split between 2h and poles.

And ofc mauls are equally usefull as pikes... 

Best knockdown weapons? Considering knockdown chance is maxed at 30% and pretty much all knockdown weapons reaches that limit: there really is no way to designate a "best" knockdown weapon. Sure, the LONGEST knockdown weapons are polearm (Quarter Staff and Long Hafted Spiked Mace at 137&138

I think that poleaxe/elegant poleaxe in secondary mode has knockdown trait, though I'm not sure.

[IG_Saint]

I simply disagree. So you think it is okay that a Danish is a better weapon than a Poleaxe (hypothetical scenario, calm your tits), because the Poleaxe user can spawn with a Long Spear next round? I think that is bullshit. Individually, weapons need to be balanced with eachother. The duel was a mere illustration. All I am saying is that versatility in weapon choice does not matter for the individual player, because you can't take 14 polearms with you. You spawn with 1 polearm.

You're using individual examples to make your argument for class balance, that just doesn't work. Of course it's not ok that a danish is better than a poleaxe because a poleaxe user can spawn with a long spear next round. But that situation is absolutely meaningless, because actual servers have a wide array of different classes and different weapons. Then the situation becomes greatswords, great maul, longsword/hbs and whatever 2h cav prefers to use vs poleaxes, GLA, bec, glaive, pikes, long maul, all the hoplite weapons and the lances. AKA best dueling weapons, best crushthrough and crappy cav weapons vs some rather good dueling weapons, best support weapons (by far), far beter 1h/shield choice, second best crushthrough (isn't saying much, but still) and the best cav weapons.

Yes, 2h wins in an individual situation. Pole has a huge advantage in a group situation (the ones were the game is actually balanced around).

Your 100 rounds of battle scenario is flawed. Imagine 1 player playing a 10000 rounds each with every (top tier) polearm, then the same player playing a 10000 rounds each with every (top tier) 2h. If within the class the results are equal = internal balance achieved, if polearm compared to 2h have equal results = class balance achieved. Having a wide variety of polearms to pick from does not affect the class balance here, and it doesn't in reality either.

Care to explain why it is flawed? Your example is flawed, simply because you again assume cRPG is balanced around one person. It isn't. You can't talk about class balance and then use 1 person as an example. 1 person just isn't a good representative of the class! Class balance is about the balance of the class vs the rest of the classes. You can't just take 1 person from each class, see how they match up to each and call it balanced/unbalanced based on that.

Excuse me, but wtf are you smoking?
...And why aren't you sharing?

I'm dutch, take a wild stab in the dark.

Best support? Pikes or mauls are the main melee support weapons. Polearm got pikes, 2hs got mauls. Best support weapons title is evenly split between 2h and poles.

You're ignoring hoplites. Even without hoplites I'd say pikes are far more effective than mauls because of their reach. (possible execption being at the top of a ladder on siege and even there a long pike can be incredible effective).

Best shield breakers? That was true before, but with the massive buff to 2h axes 2h is just as good as polearms when it comes to shieldbreaking. More damage for only slightly shorter reach. Only time you want a polearm shieldbreaker over a 2h is if you want the really long, but really slow, ones like GLB. Also take note of the morningstar. A 2-slot shieldbreaker that is also the most damaging pierce weapon in the game. Not something to underestimate. 2h axes are also usable from horse, something polearm axes are not.

You're completely ignoring the unbalanced tag and the far greater reach that polearm shieldbreakers have. The unbalanced tag, whether or not you think it's a big malus or just a small one, is still a malus. 2hs do have the best cav shieldbreakers, no doubt about that, thank god for that, what with bump stabs and bumb slashes, shields have always been a problem when I'm on my cav alt..

Best knockdown weapons? Considering knockdown chance is maxed at 30% and pretty much all knockdown weapons reaches that limit: there really is no way to designate a "best" knockdown weapon. Sure, the LONGEST knockdown weapons are polearm (Quarter Staff and Long Hafted Spiked Mace at 137&138), but the goedendag is pretty close after with it's 117 length and 2h animation bonus reach. You could also argue that 1h got the best knockdown weapons because they are faster (scratch that, staffs are the fastest) and can be used with a shield. Then again, the biggest benefit with knockdown is the free hit, so the knockdown weapon with the most damage would also make sense to consider the "best" knockdown weapon, and the maul&mallet wins there.

Again, You're completely ignoring the unbalanced tag and you're forgetting that most of the top tier polearms have an alternate mode that gives em knockdown. Polearms are much faster, have way more reach and aren't unbalanced. 2hs do win on damage, just because of the great maul (and maybe the mallet? I'm not sure of the damage values). I ignored 1hs because I thought this thread was about 2h vs pole.

[Rebelyell]

I simply disagree. So you think it is okay that a Danish is a better weapon than a Poleaxe (hypothetical scenario, calm your tits), because the Poleaxe user can spawn with a Long Spear next round? I think that is bullshit. Individually, weapons need to be balanced with eachother.
The duel was a mere illustration. All I am saying is that versatility in weapon choice does not matter for the individual player, because you can't take 14 polearms with you. You spawn with 1 polearm.

Your 100 rounds of battle scenario is flawed. Imagine 1 player playing a 10000 rounds each with every (top tier) polearm, then the same player playing a 10000 rounds each with every (top tier) 2h. If within the class the results are equal = internal balance achieved, if polearm compared to 2h have equal results = class balance achieved. Having a wide variety of polearms to pick from does not affect the class balance here, and it doesn't in reality either.

yea because shield breaker knockdown hores rear 0.7(0.9 when loomed) weight more and 6 dmg more on stab dosen't matter

but hey you right because "2hender" can pick up greate axe or barmace next round

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btw poleaxe is one of the best weapon in the game  and best for all around use in my opinion

[Strudog]

Arguing is useless, us polearmers will just respec

R.I.P POLEARM

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On a more serious note nerf that 2h lol stab and nerf the damage on the longsword, even ninjas are starting to use that OP piece of shit

[Thomek]

(click to show/hide)

Not real ninjas.

But yeah, since the katana should and has always been the fastest 2h in cRPG, I'd say nerf longsword with -1 speed.

[Casimir]

All shield breaking 2h are unbalanced unlike polearms. Ignoring that mallus is stupid as it's effect is considerable in many situations. Anyone suggesting 2h axe breakers are OP is taking the piss.

I'd never deny that 2hs are powerful, but anyone who thinks that these classes are seriously unbalanced at this current state then you're clearly ignoring the facts.

The two classes as a whole are as closely balanced as they've ever been. Both are incredibly effective and in the right hands can easily beat the other.


Stop blaming class wide imbalance as an excuse for ingame failings.

[Gurnisson]

Yes, 2h wins in an individual situation. Pole has a huge advantage in a group situation (the ones were the game is actually balanced around).

Is it really that huge? The stab of the greatswords are a bit worse off compared to the dedicated support polearms in a mass melee scenario, while being a lot better for small 1v1 or when outnumbered. A greatsword is a much better weapon for group combat than say a poleaxe, just because of the ridiculousness of the 2h stab. Having been a pikeman for a long time, I've also found the urge to try out 2h in mass melee too, and the superiority of polearms is way exaggerated.


Also, polearms doesn't have access to the best cavalry weapons, that's the 1h class. 1h cavalry is better than lance cavalry.

[Casimir]

Also, polearms doesn't have access to the best cavalry weapons, that's the 1h class. 1h cavalry is better than lance cavalry.

2h cav pisses all over inferior scrublord 1h cav.