Author Topic: Polearms vs Two handers  (Read 11776 times)

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Offline IG_Saint

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Re: Polearms vs Two handers
« Reply #75 on: May 17, 2013, 02:27:03 am »
0
Is it really that huge? The stab of the greatswords are a bit worse off compared to the dedicated support polearms in a mass melee scenario, while being a lot better for small 1v1 or when outnumbered. A greatsword is a much better weapon for group combat than say a poleaxe, just because of the ridiculousness of the 2h stab. Having been a pikeman for a long time, I've also found the urge to try out 2h in mass melee too, and the superiority of polearms is way exaggerated.

Also, polearms doesn't have access to the best cavalry weapons, that's the 1h class. 1h cavalry is better than lance cavalry.

I disagree, I'd say greatswords are a lot worse off. I'd rather face 2 greatswords users than a pikeman+any other melee. I think the greatswords vs poleaxes are more closely balanced. Greatswords have the ridiculous stab and slightly more range on slashes (I think), poleaxes have shieldbreaking or knockdown and more base damage (in cut mode, not sure what the secondary mode's stats are). Getting knocked down in group combat can be extremely deadly.

As to cav, I ignored 1hs because the thread said polearm vs 2h. Between those 2 there is no debate which has the beter cav weapons.

Offline Prpavi

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Re: Polearms vs Two handers
« Reply #76 on: May 17, 2013, 09:18:06 am »
-1
I am not really whining though am I, I am just stating that: 1) Greatswords are versatile in battle, 2) Having access to a variety of weapon types is not a valid argument in a class balance thread, 3) 2h is very easy to use, 4) TOR!

Disagree on any of these points?

I don't think hoplite and piker are really the polearms we are discussing here, but for the record, ashwood pike is OP, longspear is balanced but is gay to play now, pike could use a considerable buff. I'd think we are rather comparing 4D polearms to two handers. 'Polearms are a utility class', well that is just bullshit. 4D polearms are general infantry weapons, just like 2h. I think the balance between these is quite okay, really. I'd just like to see that 2h would glance a little more when people do sloppy swings and not ignore buildings and teammates as much. So all the scrub mediocre 2h heroes wouldn't do as well as they do now because they play an easy mode class.

Yes a wide variety of polearms does make them a utility class, sry but you can't really balance weapon with weapon and i think in any game or rl scenario a bardiche user will get spammed to shit by a longsword user. you can't really balance a huge stick with a chunk of heavy metal on top and a fine crafted sword. polearms are longer, slower and have higher damage. all the traits needed for a great teamplay.

I think the main reason for polearm users to feel the way they feel are animations. yes i agree that 2h animations are better and i personally feel i have better control and glance less. This is the reason when i played polearms i like playing with bamboo more than lhb or glb. i always saw polearms as a team support weapon which works fantastic in a group and is weaker solo while 2her were the other way around.

I agree that a group of 2her will get the shit beaten out of them by a group of polearmers.
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Offline rufio

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Re: Polearms vs Two handers
« Reply #77 on: May 17, 2013, 09:22:43 am »
-1
Is it really that huge? The stab of the greatswords are a bit worse off compared to the dedicated support polearms in a mass melee scenario, while being a lot better for small 1v1 or when outnumbered. A greatsword is a much better weapon for group combat than say a poleaxe, just because of the ridiculousness of the 2h stab. Having been a pikeman for a long time, I've also found the urge to try out 2h in mass melee too, and the superiority of polearms is way exaggerated.


Also, polearms doesn't have access to the best cavalry weapons, that's the 1h class. 1h cavalry is better than lance cavalry.

in my experience, 2handers suffer the greatest stabstunn on block, and have higher glance rates than polearm stabs. but ye the stab is really strong when it dousnt glance. i do find the shorter 2handers to have tomuch damage thow. On another note, polearm knockdowns and shieldbreakers are supperior just because they are ballanced and most 2handers arent wich is a  big difference when in chaotic fights and needing to block fast.
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Re: Polearms vs Two handers
« Reply #78 on: May 17, 2013, 09:23:08 am »
0
2h cav pisses all over inferior scrublord 1h cav.

Lies distortions and bullshit! I'll not have it!
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Offline Strudog

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Re: Polearms vs Two handers
« Reply #79 on: May 17, 2013, 09:24:20 am »
+3
I disagree, I'd say greatswords are a lot worse off. I'd rather face 2 greatswords users than a pikeman+any other melee. I think the greatswords vs poleaxes are more closely balanced. Greatswords have the ridiculous stab and slightly more range on slashes (I think), poleaxes have shieldbreaking or knockdown and more base damage (in cut mode, not sure what the secondary mode's stats are). Getting knocked down in group combat can be extremely deadly.

As to cav, I ignored 1hs because the thread said polearm vs 2h. Between those 2 there is no debate which has the beter cav weapons.

Teamplaying with a poleaxe is one the hardest things to do, 1/2 of the time you are killing teamates, simply because the stab is useless on it compared to the greatsword. With this in mind you either have to side swing which is not ideal for group combat or use the overhead which makes you vulnerable.


I agree that a group of 2her will get the shit beaten out of them by a group of polearmers.

Did you really just say that?
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Offline Prpavi

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Re: Polearms vs Two handers
« Reply #80 on: May 17, 2013, 09:42:01 am »
0
Teamplaying with a poleaxe is one the hardest things to do, 1/2 of the time you are killing teamates, simply because the stab is useless on it compared to the greatsword. With this in mind you either have to side swing which is not ideal for group combat or use the overhead which makes you vulnerable.

Did you really just say that?

yup, hoplites, poleaxes, spears vs greatswords, morningstars and mauls that don't crush. definitely

not 5v5 but like mentioned before 50v50
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Offline Kafein

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Re: Polearms vs Two handers
« Reply #81 on: May 17, 2013, 10:31:39 am »
0
There's much more to support than just stab length people.

Polearms are best support because each time they hit, the victim's movement speed is set to 0, which is a pretty big deal. The hardest players to kill in a group of allies are those that take advantage of the weird bugs that happen whenever they get hit and can still move (which means not getting hit by a polearm) such as running through other people. The ability to easily facehug stab with the "short" polearms is also very important. In tightly packed fights even a pitch fork is a better support weapon than a greatsword. 2h stabs are not to be laughed at, primarily because they fucking hurt, but they don't match as pure support.

Offline DaveUKR

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Re: Polearms vs Two handers
« Reply #82 on: May 17, 2013, 11:06:20 am »
-4
2h is a lot easier to use. Every strat battle I see people with morningstars run into a crowd and swing it around, sometimes getting like 5 kills. Then I decide to try it with my bec de corbin, glance, glance, glance, glance. 2h gets stuck less and 2h does not glance at shitty angles. Ever wondered why every mediocre player on siege uses a 2h? Because spamming LMB with it is oh so darn succesful.
Tor is one of the best players of this mod, he is right up there with Chase, Gurnisson and Blueberry Muffin. Sit down and show some respect.

Okay. You speak a lot about theory. Lets take last strat battle. Absolutely best KDs on their sides and both in top3 by kills. Guess what classes? Polearmers, if you want to specify - long spear users.
Side 1:
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Nothing to say that Strudog spent 1/3 of the battle inside of the village protecting spawn from cav.

Offline Panos

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Re: Polearms vs Two handers
« Reply #83 on: May 17, 2013, 11:13:46 am »
+3
Okay. You speak a lot about theory. Lets take last strat battle. Absolutely best KDs on their sides and both in top3 by kills. Guess what classes? Polearmers, if you want to specify - long spear users.
Side 1:
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Side 2:
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Nothing to say that Strudog spent 1/3 of the battle inside of the village protecting spawn from cav.


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Dave, show the whole truth at least.

Mauwits, Burak and Phase, top the scoreboard.
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Offline rufio

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Re: Polearms vs Two handers
« Reply #84 on: May 17, 2013, 11:36:33 am »
+1
pretty ballanced it seems  :rolleyes:
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Offline Panos

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Re: Polearms vs Two handers
« Reply #85 on: May 17, 2013, 11:40:31 am »
+2
pretty ballanced it seems  :rolleyes:

Most people here said, that polearms are dominant on battles, and yet, 3 out of 6 that top, are 2hander spammers.

Yes...pretty ballanced indeed  :|

Edit for what Idzo said : Ive seen Gurni playing as a 2hander, still a beast.   I`ve seen Strudog playing 2h aswell and he did pretty good.

Now on the other hand, Ive never seen Mauwits playing other class, and Phase when he was playing polearms, he was the least, mediocre.
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Offline Idzo

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Re: Polearms vs Two handers
« Reply #86 on: May 17, 2013, 11:40:59 am »
+2
There are few poleguys who can make positive k/d on strat battle and that guys are good in every class.

On other hand...

Most people here said, that polearms are dominant on battles

Cant be dominant, you can even swing with it without hitting someone(firendly). only stab and overhead which are fucked up long time ago and even more fucked up with turn rate nerf!
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Offline DaveUKR

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Re: Polearms vs Two handers
« Reply #87 on: May 17, 2013, 12:11:49 pm »
+2

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Dave, show the whole truth at least.

Mauwits, Burak and Phase, top the scoreboard.

You want the whole truth?

Gurni 2,54 KD
Mauwits 2,53 KD
Strudog 2,25 KD
Phase 2,09 KD
Burak 1,38 KD

In top 3 medium KD of a 2hander is 2.0, polearms 2.4. Also Burak was using Great Maul all the time, camping in the small breach killing charging enemies. My last 5 gens were 2 polearm gens, 1 2h gen, 2 shielder gens. Polearmer was so adorable. Why do you even play polearms if you don't like it or think its underpowered? All items definitely need tweaking but saying that some certain classes are underpowered - it's just wrong.

Offline Lannistark

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Re: Polearms vs Two handers
« Reply #88 on: May 17, 2013, 12:13:25 pm »
+3
As everyone is pointing out in here, 2h has better animations, feinting is a tad easier, and you can hitslash quite often with that left to right trick. (Right swing is incredibly fast and can be easily combined with the stab to pull of those crazy feints some people like Atze or Seph do - the nativeish feints)

I've played as a 2h nearly all the time in cRPG, and at first I was having trouble fighting polearms, more than other 2h. This is because polearms with long reach and acceptable speed (such as the glaive, or elegant poleaxe) can outreach any 2h, except in stab mode. I would always get a taste of that block his attack, then try to swing mine and get hit because of his backpedalling footwork (oh the irony)

The stab mode comparison is different. They serve for different purposes. After trying both classes what I can say is:

· 2h stab is an easy stab, a very powerful move. Everyone can use it, and be successful with it because there is no mastering involved in it. The only mastering I've seen of the 2h stab is actually not using it at all, and that, our friend GTX was very good at. It is because 2h stab is so scary, he just mantained it and closed in at the last moment knowing the opponent would not risk it not to block. Once closed in, GTX would always have the advantage, and he'd repeat that every single time with the aid of good footwork. GTX would actually never use the stab as an attack, just as a feint or to confuse opponents.

· Polearm's stab is different, but it should not be underestimated. In fact, in the hands of a good player, polestab becomes increasingly useful, rather than 2h stab. Polearm's stab is short, and can be outranged easily by a 2h. However, it is intended to be use in short-range, since it rarely glances. The animation is so fast it easily grants a second move after the opponent blocked your former one. I've had a lot of trouble fighting NuberT and his polearms in a duel. I'd block his first swing, then watch how he'd easily stab me right afterwards as my stab is not fast enough to catch up with his. This is in fact another way of spamming polearms have, that many cannot seem to appreciate because it is not as obvious as in the 2h class. One must know when and how to do it, whereas the 2h stab just can't go wrong. The thing is, when fighting good players, it is likely they are all cautious about the 2h stab - everyone knows it is dangerous. But who can expect at first a second hit coming from below from a seemingly "nerfed in reach" animation that counters your stab easily in close range? That is the point.

Now, I'm not intending to defend 2h in any way vs polearms. I know how polearms can be a far more difficult class to master - that is actually the point I'm trying to make. Polearm is tougher to master, but there are some aces you can use once you learn the class well. The reason why 2h is generally believed to be a superior class is because it does not take a genius to learn why it is overpowered.

Edit: I'd like 2 things to happen. Bringing back the turn rate speed of SOME polearms, not all. And leaving 2h unchanged, it was already nerfed, and the point is not to balance this game by nerfing, it should be by buffing. Otherwise some day this will end in turn-based combat.

NOTE: If you are fighting a longsword user, then you might as well give up for that shit IS overpowered.  :mrgreen:
« Last Edit: May 17, 2013, 04:24:02 pm by Lannistark »
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Offline Panos

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Re: Polearms vs Two handers
« Reply #89 on: May 17, 2013, 12:16:09 pm »
+1
In top 3 medium KD of a 2hander is 2.0, polearms 2.4. Also Burak was using Great Maul all the time, camping in the small breach killing charging enemies. My last 5 gens were 2 polearm gens, 1 2h gen, 2 shielder gens. Polearmer was so adorable. Why do you even play polearms if you don't like it or think its underpowered? All items definitely need tweaking but saying that some certain classes are underpowered - it's just wrong.


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