if u reduce manvurbalty we well be f***** so no thanks
I agree with 1st post. Good idea, good job.
Devs, think about it!
@Ujin
Do you know, that your speed, when you get hit from thrower, will revenge on you? Your speed = bonus dmg from throwing weapon, really.
My suggestion: don't ride too close to thrower, but that is what you know. Second thing is to slow down as much as you can, when you see thrower aiming in you. Really, it helps. (I am thrower ;) )
well horses would have more HP, so it would be different.
They would also probably charge more straight on, and not do the millimeter accurate side-thrust.
I'm among those that find cavalry hopelessly screwed up in cRPG.
They have laughable charges, their horses can't take a beating etc, but they are also way too controllable.
My suggestion is simple:
Boost:
Charge damage
Horse hitpoints
Speed
Lance length (not as much as the LoC though)
Nerf:
Maneuverability. A lot. (enough so they can't stop or avoid a correctly timed and drawn pike when at near full speed.)
Reasoning is simple.
* The pro-cav in cRPG moves their horses around with millimeter precision. This is not realistic for anyone who ever rode a horse. They turn around on a dime, hitting you in the back about 3 seconds after you missed them. (Steppe horse at least) They can insta-stop..
* They get shot down from 2-3 hits from an archer or thrower. (But mysteriously survives a pike to the head..)
* They dodge arrows like a Ninja.. (This is the worst part, but vital for them of course, so I understand they have to do it)
* They run around in towns and mountains and rooftops and whatnot. Places where a horse would never be preferred.
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Boost:Agree.
Charge damage
Horse hitpoints
Speed
Nerf:It IS realistic for anyone who REALLY knows to ride, and not just thinks he can. That is abut 1 out of 1000 so called "horsemen".
Maneuverability. A lot. (enough so they can't stop or avoid a correctly timed and drawn pike when at near full speed.)
...
This is not realistic for anyone who ever rode a horse.
They can insta-stop.With sliding stop you can stop a horse from full speed in a few seconds btw. It is more lame how they instantly stop and rear in one place when running into something.
* They get shot down from 2-3 hits from an archer or thrower. (But mysteriously survives a pike to the head..)Well the archer part is realistic. Horses are very sensitive creatures and though they are relatively big and strong, an arrow or a well placed sword blow takes them out just as easily as a human. The pike, well... that should take them out too.
* They dodge arrows like a Ninja.. (This is the worst part, but vital for them of course, so I understand they have to do it)This is a bit strong...
* They run around in towns and mountains and rooftops and whatnot. Places where a horse would never be preferred.Rooftops and high cliff walls are unrealistic I agree. But what's your problem with towns?
Pikes would be MORE dangerous to cav, but cav would be MORE dangerous to non-pikemen.That makes sense I agree.
Well the archer part is realistic. Horses are very sensitive creatures and though they are relatively big and strong, an arrow or a well placed sword blow takes them out just as easily as a human. The pike, well... that should take them out too.
Nerfing infantry swingspeed would only make it unrealistic, brah
in fact, increase the speeds so it'll be realistic plz
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwYi_uOwGtY
Cavalry is like bunch of superheroes, jumping on roofs, flying miles high and avoiding everything you have.
On a more serious note, above poster, imagine your horse runs at 50kmh and it runs ONTO my sword, do you think it should survive? Physics!
I am able to dehorse guys even with barmace, but when i see some skilled cav guy, i am starting to hide behind our pikeman. Good cav guys can kill me with lance even when i know about them and i am prepared for them, bad ones are losing horses and sometimes life, when they get too close. The maneuverability issue, i could not agree more on that, the horses are way too flexible as it is now. But i do not mind it either, bump damage is still annoying and the knockback usually gets you killed, if your enemy has good cav support.
The idea of cav actually having to make larger circles to be able to effectively annoy infantry, totally for!
If i see a skilled guy who is prepared for me, i switch to a different target. It's a draw.
Maneuverability is what separates good horsemen who know how to use it from bad horsemen. It is more of a tool for survival than a killing tool, take that away and you can shove those extra hp/body armor points you-know-yourself-where.
How about a "solution" for katanas - give it + 7 damage and - 20 speed ? No ? Thought so. Maybe we should nerf katana chambers ? I mean , Khorin can chamber with a katana,wtf, there should be a "solution" to that. What i'm pointing out here is that those "millimeter accurate side-thrusts" are player-based skills , just like manual blocking and chambering.
Some horses are made entirely different, for example on those 2 schemes you've drawn Thomek, scheme #1 somewhat looks like a sarranid horse, the other one - courser. So what you are suggesting is imo a complete class-killer and an equaliser for bad players.
Jesus a lot of BS replies here.
Most of what you suggest is not possible to do because it's hardcoded by taleworlds. (Like fall-damage, horses avoiding obstacles etc.) (Ujin, there are swords with 7 less speed than katana, but they are also longer and have more damage, this is not about that at all. To the one criticizing my drawing, get some imagination, it's not a scale drawing, just an illustration to get the point out there, for those not able to read. )
What I'm suggesting is a TRADE OFF. It's NOT about nerfing cav in general.
to repeat myself:
1. NERF MANEUVERABILITY, by X amount
2. PUMP EVERYTHING ELSE, so that it makes up for that X amount of maneuverability nerf
3. POWER STAYS THE SAME
4. THIS X DOESN'T NEED TO BE EXTREME EVEN
I believe such changes will lead to more cooperation among horsemen, as well as infantry. And that terrain will be more important for cav than it currently is. It is also about forcing cav to use their brains, and get rewarded for that. Horsemen have so much power unused, they can kite, herd and split groups, they can surprise and manipulate the whole battlefield alone. They can have a great overview of the battlefield because they sit higher, they can function as scouts and report enemy movements to their team, they can choose their battles as no other class, the list goes on. 90% of them don't use that power.
How about you first fix how pikes and spears are able to do insane damage to horses and people while standing right next to the horse, and the horse being stationary, by using the shovelling motion or spinning around really fast.
Then fix how everyone has a pike or long spear in their back pocket, from archers to throwers to two-handers, and they can go into a thrust second after changing weapons.
Finally make less maps that require the ungodly precision of cavalry by being more open and less urban.
EDIT: And I loved the subtle reference to YMCA.
Jesus a lot of BS replies here.
Actually, I think your post was BS, but lets not mince words. :rolleyes:
Cav has been balanced already due to upkeep. The lighter horses that are now prevalent are pretty easy to kill. It doesn't even take a pike. Archers/throwers can easily take them down.
The lighter horse coupled with the tighter maps on NA and lots of throwers means my horse dies often. I actually have been getting most of my kills on the ground rather than on my cav.
Other balance idea:
If possible increase the thrust damage of spears/pikes. This will let them do their job better of killing horses/riders. *If possible increase the benefit they get from speed when it comes to damage rather than a sweeping buff to their overall damage in order to keep from potential melee combat OP'ness*
OR
Make it so that when a horse comes to a sudden stop (Pike, driving into a wall/tree/etc) the rider is thrown and takes fall damage equivalent to the speed they were going at when stopped.
And then leave the rest of the horse stats as they are now so Cav can continue to be a threat on the field and have fun circling on a dime bumpslashing/poking at people.
(Yup, I have riding and use the sarranid horse so it's not an infantry hate on cav thing)
or decrease damage of lances, so they don't 1hitkill people ?
Lance beeing shoved into your body from something running at 40 km/h is porbably something balanced to 1 hit kill most things.
I can't believe that cav players actually WANT it to stay like this. They play exactly like we ninjas do! Lurking around, looking for an easy kill or unaware/busy opponent, run away, kite and repeat. In my idea I'm simply trying to make the charge more powerful and survivable for the cav-players. (In the no-pike situations).
on my rider with 0 powerstrike and a light lance, i frequently 1 hit people when it's couched.
Not really. Even couched lance was not that effective.
I don't think a 25cm blade being showed into your armpit, or through the vizier into your brain hurts much less Siiem.
Anyway back on topic, it's not about realism, but making cav somehow resemble cav, while keeping stuff balanced.
:lol:
You think it's like those guys in decent armors were just lucky, many of them ? Armor saved bruce. First, weapon had to strike with proper angle to penetrate for example coat of plates, mail and aketon. Second, blunt trauma was partially negated by armor. Third, even when it penetrated the would could be not fatal, you would be amazed how much beating can withstand guy pumped up with adrenaline.This topic is very amusing to read. Wonderful arguments used by Thomek and this guy too.
And thrusting with lance lost much of it's energy during the process. Early lances (all bar couched lances in game) were built without empty core, so they were not that resilient so they were broken after some hits (in couching they were broken more often).
You think it's like those guys in decent armors were just lucky, many of them ? Armor saved bruce. First, weapon had to strike with proper angle to penetrate for example coat of plates, mail and aketon. Second, blunt trauma was partially negated by armor. Third, even when it penetrated the would could be not fatal, you would be amazed how much beating can withstand guy pumped up with adrenaline.
If i see a skilled guy who is prepared for me, i switch to a different target. It's a draw.
Maneuverability is what separates good horsemen who know how to use it from bad horsemen. It is more of a tool for survival than a killing tool, take that away and you can shove those extra hp/body armor points you-know-yourself-where.
This topic is very amusing to read. Wonderful arguments used by Thomek and this guy too.
Tell me UrLukur, how many strikes of your 1handed sword are needed to take down a plated knight then ?
True. However, people in sub-coat of plate armours (most of crpg) are going to be almost certainly dead or disabled (which is dead for purposes of crpg, since we don't have "incapacited" people by a couched lance. In fact, charging a packed infantry formation with couched lances is very likely to do more then just kill the front row (corpses are not ethereal in real life) - but on the other hand, if you couch infantry like that, you're almost certainly going to fight with some other weapon for the rest of the battle. 1257 AD actually has breakable lances (and they almost always break on couch).
Also, anecdotal evidence regarding what people can take while overdosed with adrenaline is not really a good argument. There are documented cases of people in modern warfare receiving 5-6 shots with a firearm including one to the head and continuing to fight. Imagine someone 500 years from now extrapolating the deadliness of firearms based on written information about such cases but without statistics how lethal firearms generally were... he could get to some really bogus conclusions that way ;)
However, look at it this way: in a game where armour is so weak that you can kill someone in mail or such with a single stab (and sometimes slash) on foot and someone in mail gets sliced in two hits of a onehanded sword, well, lance from horseback killing you in one go is a lot more reasonable then that.
I was always pro decreasing lethality in warband.
I am not sure what your (Thomek) motivation is/ was for this topic.
we wont/ cant change our playstyle - sneaking behind the enemy lines and back-stabbing, thats all we can do.
Well, you might remember my war elephant. I had maps with about 40, 50 kills when I played "for real", using horse and lance. 38/47 of those kills were unaware people.
Every two minutes another vote-ban against me.
Similiar bad things happened to the Finn. (Not me, a different person).
The majority of crpg players is not capable to use their brain.
Well... if people wanted to do that, ramping up armour rating by ~50%, accompanied with removing pierce from most weapons (bar spears/lances, with lower damage amount however) and upping cut damage on a few (arrows), would be an easy way to do the trick (so mail would be the equalivent of current plate, for instance, like in RCM-type mods).
It would also cause epic whine, however.
That would improve the game I think
, though might slant more towards an Agi build.
I don't want to nerf cavalry. But make it different. (for the nth time)
I want to see if there is room in the game mechanics to see if another playstyle is viable and balanced.
Like it is now it's just silly.
no
Exactly.
People who say things like str/ironflesh is useless, armour is useless, etc, get oneshotted by a sniper crossbow / throwing whatever, a choice you make when creating your char and equipping it with cloth to be faster / have no wpf penalties.
As you say, your char gets oneshot by a sniper crossbow. Mine loses 50-60% hp. However, if there's a magical field protecting you from dying in one shot, then guess what, my armour/IF/str doesn't offer me extra protection over your clothes and magical oneshot protection.
If people want lethality to go down and things to make more sense, then buffing armour (and rebalancing some weapon damages) would be the way. I suspect it isn't, and I guess most people find the current stats more fun / interesting.
Well... if people wanted to do that, ramping up armour rating by ~50%, accompanied with removing pierce from most weapons (bar spears/lances, with lower damage amount however) and upping cut damage on a few (arrows), would be an easy way to do the trick (so mail would be the equalivent of current plate, for instance, like in RCM-type mods).
It would also cause epic whine, however.
Sword swings at heavy armor should kill in 2-3 hits from blunt traumaSorry but totally BS. Have you ever seen REAL armor from close? Have you ever been hit with anything IRL while wearing solid armor?
Dunno who you are talking about.Just look through the history of this topic, or trigger a discussion about this on a populated server.
First off, I'm a medium cavalry guy (courser, lammelar armor, heavy lance), and I love playing as cavalry. It's epicly fun.
The non-fun issue with cavalry is survivability. As my name suggests, cavalry currently is NOT the proffession one should seek if one desire long life. The problems is a combination of factors:
-Throwing weapons are very popular. Throwing weapons allow any infantryman to easily counter cavalry in such a way that the cavalry cannot fight back. They can hit at a distance, we cannot. If we try to close that distance to attack, we make ourselves vulnerable to a storm of darts, axes, and javelins.
-High teir throwing weapons do a disproportionate amount of damage with regard to horses hit points. It takes one or two axes or lances to kill a horse.
-Horse HP is not high. It is certainly not high enough to survive direct encounters with throwers. It is not high enough to charge into a group of infantry and expect to survive.
-Not only are horses rather delicate, but they are very expensive. Perhaps a bit unfairly so, although it is certainly not impossible to use a horse every round.
-Most people use the more delicate horse (courser), because said horse has a higher chance of surviving than a much more expensive Destrier. Destrier has more HP, but that is useless, given the circumstances. Any non-tank horse is too delicate to fulfill the role of a decisive, hard charging unit. So instead people have to ninja with their horses, which is fun, but kind of weird.
What do I actually suggest? Idk. Perhaps increase horse HP by a tiny bit? We certainly pay enough gold. Perhaps make some of the high-tier throwing weapons less powerfull, or eliminate them entirely (there is no reason to have a lolkill weapon like throwing lances). Either way it's a damage/hp relationship that's the problem. Either the horse is to squishy, or the darts too pointy. Or I'm just really bad.
I like all of Thomeks ideas. But have a question.
Do horsemen using 1h weapons gain any bonus from charge? I know they get the speed bonus, but what about from charge?
If not, then there should be some horses with the improved HP and Armor, with alot less charge, and slightly same maneuverability as now, but if possible restrict lances from being used on it. Like a dedicated 1h weapon horse.
Just a thought. Cause mounted sword and boarders would be penalized greatly for less maneuverability, and it seems like a huge charge bonus wouldnt help that much.
this idea goes against skill of individual horseman. having strong unguided tank that runs only in wide circles...
about your question how much is manuevrability worth in exchange for additional HP and CHARGE damage? i can't say really because it would make here many people's pants wet. no really - its worth 10HP/1point manuvrability and +10points in making game more lame being a horseman.
I say reduce horse upkeep to 3.75% instead of 5%
Either that or reduce base price.
I think a small decrease to horse base price would be nice. 19k gold for a courser is... alot. I can understand horses being expensive, however I would like to point out that my 19k courser gives me far less survivability, utility, and all round bad-assery than a 19k heraldic transitional armor. Had I done the smart thing I would be an infantry tank and get quite a few more kills than with armor of equal price to the horse I use now. The armor doesn't have a chance of dissappearing half way through a round, like my horse does when it's hit in the face with a dart or two.
...but they are also way too controllable.
Nerf:
Maneuverability. A lot. (enough so they can't stop or avoid a correctly timed and drawn pike when at near full speed.)
Eh? In this vid, nowhere I see a horse at reasonable speed doing manoeuvers. You really think this prancing around would be useful in battle?
I think the OP suggestion is valid. Give them lots more HP, so they don't die to projectiles so easily, increase the bump damage again, but make them less maneouverable. Could work. Also, I think there should be an X mode for spears that would have to be used to rear horses. Regular thrusts would hurt a horse, but not rear it.
Bump.
Time for cav change.
Yes, make horses way stronger, but less maneuverable. So its not just about killing the unaware. It gives cav a better change against infantry, but it will require anticipation to succeed. +1
But in fact your first priority target after spawning should be: fight enemy cav! Instead of autowalking towards the enemy, watch out for cav. Instead of shooting into the enemy infantry blob, shoot the horses at the flanks. Instead of running off with your shield and one handed weapon to have fun fighting three enemies at once, stick to teammates with spears. Instead of follwing the first two handed Kuyak wearer to support him with your pike, move along the flanks and the back of your team to form a protection screen against cav with the other pikemen.
...
And other idealist dreams. Go take a look at EU1. This has been discussed to death. Awareness my ass! You simply cannot be aware of all the cav and ranged and melee enemies, and duel 2+ people while still keeping a lookout for cav. The human brain is not capable of it.
And other idealist dreams. Go take a look at EU1. This has been discussed to death. Awareness my ass! You simply cannot be aware of all the cav and ranged and melee enemies, and duel 2+ people while still keeping a lookout for cav. The human brain is not capable of it.More or less. This is what makes cav so gay and random. Once you engage in a melee fight, you simply can't watch behind you and to the sides if you want to block your opponent. So then it's only down to chance whether or not there's a cav around who'll come to bump you/lance you. And then you die. Wohoo, fun fun fun.
Overdriven, show some respect and come with real arguments.
The only way I would support this is if polearms didn't stop a horse. Otherwise the nerfed manoeuvrability would make polearms vs cav way to OP and insta kill every time, regardless of the increased HP. There would also have to be a complete overhaul in the maps in rotation. 90% (shitty village maps ect), would be awful for the changes you are proposing, thus negating an entire class of players for a lot of it. The maps would need to be much more open as a whole to give cavalry a chance of actually doing something as these changes would nerf them insanely on closer/hillier maps.
I love the idea of big cav charges ect. And on paper it sounds great...but that only works with clan organisation. Pubby implementation of these changes would be appalling.
Good for you Joker, but personally I hate being in an adrenaline pumping duel with shit flying everywhere just to get backstabbed by a noob on a horse.
2. I don't see how to change how infantry works. Make them smarter? Read my better battles idea..
Personally, I don't mind cav much. Many of them are avoiding me if they don't have huge advantage (3 cav or more vs one little me). Yes, it's boring to watch for your back all the time but I got used to it. Hate throwers and pikes way more than cav and other ranged.
I wanted to become cav but couldn't make it. Thomek is right, cav is boring to play and quite horrible after all these "changes". I do backstab people as melee quite a lot but at least I have a choice not to. As cav you have no choice, you're always backstabbing. Boring.
Cav was pretty cool before lance nerf, I could toy with noob pikemen even if they were aware. Good times.
HC is a lot more fun than lancer/1h cav.
What would I do? Change cav to how it was. Lower couch damage but wide lance angle. Noob cav will suffer, good ones won't feel a thing. There will be no more one hit kills by couching, something that noob cav like so much, you'll have to aim for head which is something not every cav is able to do every time.
16 months after the original post, this isn't even the same damn game. You people are still arguing like it is. :rolleyes:
That was the whole point of the bump. Some things never change..
The problem with Thomek's idea is that is just doesn't work
Here are the reasons :
- People aware of you will try to dodge and attack you. It is currently already very easy to acheive for anything but 1h and xbows that need reloading. Xbowmen just take their sidearm, and 1h can still do it if they take advantage of the low maneuverability of cav. When I'm dehorsed I just chamberblock lancers and do a right swing+left jump if they try to do a couched lance.
- When you attack people as melee cav you usually don't take damage from them, but only due to the possible proximity of enemy ranged. In most cases taking damage means you failed completely. You don't need a lot of horse health.
- Bumpkills require less skill than couched lance kills, tend to be more reliable (not magically missing) and allow horsemen to kill many enemies in one strike.
- Having a more sturdy horse doesn't help you at all when your enemies can stop it with polearms.
- Speed only helps for attacking people without them having the time to react to the sound of the horse. Currently it only works with coursers but if you buff speed more horses will be "silent".
Buffing horse health, armor and charge while nerfing maneuver would actually buff ranged cav and be detrimental to melee cav.
This is what I'm suggesting, no more lone Ninja cav. Go with 2 or 5 or 10 other cav, with higher speeds and more horse HP. (not a problem considering the amount of cav on servers these days)
Im not sure I understand.. Of course horse HP is worth something. Especially if maneuver is nerfed.
Bumpkills will need to be better executed than now. It will be harder to do.
In my idea, perhaps only a few polearms will be able to stop cav. Its not hard to spot a Pike or a longspear..
* Yes, but they will not be able to climb around on mountains like goats either.. Terrain will matter much more.
* No, ranged cav would need way more arrows and time to shoot down a horse. If this becomes a problem, then of course one would need to do balancing adjustments.
Charges, even coordinated, don't tend to work well. Not because horses have bad "charge" stats, but because of the stopping mechanics. One pike is enough to stop a horse and all those that follow. Also, maybe the first charge will have an effect, but what follows will inevitably be a chaos of horses going in all directions and stopping each other, causing great causualties for both sides.
HP is worthless if you can't inflict damage. I don't think it's a good idea to rely on your survivability to increases the chances of taking advantages of bigger mistakes. But I'll expand on that at the end.
It is already not that easy against aware people that are not somehow limited in movement (near a wall, in a mopb of teammates...), up to the point it is practically impossible to bump aware agi archers. It will be even harder with less maneuver.
That's just a detail and probably very personal but it is harder to spot a long shaft of wood than say a weapon with a lot of metal like a poleaxe when the background is grass or trees. When I'm dehorsed by pikes and long speara it usually happens because they were held in such a way it was just a point from my perspective. Spotting the polearm thrust animation instead of the weapon tends to be more effective.
Worst idea ever. Map makers think calradia is somewhere between the moon and mars, with hills, cliffs and mountains absolutely everywhere. Horses (any) are already slower than people when climbing 5 degree slopes so definetly no. Not until maps are realistically flat, or at least more flat than now.
It would nerf ranged cav versus cav, but also be a great buff to the ranged cav versus infantry and foot ranged abilities, if bumps become more deadly. Range cav is the only class capable of locking people down by aiming and bump them at the same time.
I think cav should be more skillbased than now and I suppose the majority agrees. Nerfing maneuver and buffing everything else is exactly the way to acheive the opposite. Maneuver defines your freedom of action. The more freedom, the more skillbased the gameplay is, as the best players will use that freedom to the fullest, whereas the worst will only use a fraction of it. Let's say you nerf maneuver so much horses become unable to turn. In such a game, there is no difference between a good and a bad cavalry player. Of course this is not what you want, but a maneuver nerf would go in that direction nonetheless. The right thing to do is buffing maneuver, and balancing it by adding a malus to horsemen linked to their armor weight, in both speed and maneuver.
I think cav should be more skillbased now and I suppose the majority agrees.
Hehe.. I get you.Not sure about the 'in time' bit.
But honestly, I'm not arguing for the sake of Ninjas here. My playstyle will never change nonetheless.
I'm talking about changing the metagame.
Right now my greatest fear is that ranged and cav will become the dominating force in time. It would be loosing the most unique thing in this mod, namely melee dueling.
Just buff long spear somehow. Melee enthusiasts quite much shit their own bed when they cried like little bitches about long spear being OP.
I don't see too many long spears or pikes around anymore. If I remember right, long spear is taking 3 slots currently and it doesn't allow long spear men have a decent sideweapon. That makes cavalry more dangerous to melee infantry units than anything. Yeah ranged counters cavalry, but its kinda borderline. Cavalry counters ranged as well and rangers can't protect the infantry from cav like pikemen and long spear men do.
Buff pikes? I'm a cav/piker hybrid and have been piker for a very long time. Pikes don't need a buff at all, if anything they could do with a slight nerf. Maybe remove polestagger from all polearms with a small stat buff to compensateWell I don't know why people don't use pikes anymore.. I am amused since at the same time everyone complains about cav and don't do anything to counter them... Maybe people are dumb then..
Just buff long spear somehow. Melee enthusiasts quite much shit their own bed when they cried like little bitches about long spear being OP.
I don't see too many long spears or pikes around anymore. If I remember right, long spear is taking 3 slots currently and it doesn't allow long spear men have a decent sideweapon. That makes cavalry more dangerous to melee infantry units than anything. Yeah ranged counters cavalry, but its kinda borderline. Cavalry counters ranged as well and rangers can't protect the infantry from cav like pikemen and long spear men do.
2h and shorter polearms are always a gamble against cav. Good cav with decent timing and horse movement is really not that easy to counter with 100% confidence.
A much needed suggestion! In the current state cavalry just enhances the players killing-ability with no cons.
I'm at the most a mediocre player, but when I was cav a few months ago it was easy for me to be in the top 5 on eu1, often even first. I played with light unloomed equipment and a rouncey most of the time, so I even made good money that gen.
Cavalry should be powerful, but only if used right.
You're right, it's not 100%. More like 90%. For greatsword users at least.Well not against me at least... Some great swords are a bit tricky sometimes if the 2h is good. Against poleaxes and similiar weapon stabs my success rate is much higher though...
Well not against me at least... Some great swords are a bit tricky sometimes if the 2h is good. Against poleaxes and similiar weapon stabs my success rate is much higher though...
This would fuck up horse archers and horse xbowmen too much.
I'd say it's more of a gamble on the cav side, because whatever you do there's always a succesful counter to that, and you have to reveal your strategy earlier than the footman due precisely to low maneuver. All it takes on the footman side is the correct reaction, be it moving on the right or the left, backward or forward, jumping or not, chamberblocking or outreaching...The average footman can't just dance out of the way of cav, our maneuver isn't all that great either. There is also not always a succesfull counter attack. For me as a 1 hander the only thing I can do is blocking or chambering, which never actually hits the horse if they have some speed. Ofcourse if the horseman is shit I can jump and rightswing, but then its their own fault. Arabian horses when couching still retain extreme maneuver and can fuck me up without being able to do anything.
This would fuck up horse archers and horse xbowmen too much.
Greatsword users do not outreach the lancer himself if he has somewhat proper timing. They can only hit the horse before the lancer hits them as the horse is a bit in front of the lancer. This does mean though that if you hit the horse and it doesn't die, you are still fucked cause the lancers attack is uninterrupted and hits for a shitload of damage.
Keep that in mind, fending off cav with greatswords has quite a high risk to it. And the horses are fucking tough. Arabians regularly survived my MW german with 7 ps stab when they were charging at me at full speed. While the lancer on the arabian who has about the same pierce damage could oneshot me with 60 hitpoints and 60 body armor.
Actually, it should be like that. In medieval times, cavalry was kind of the deciding factor. You can always carry a lawlpike along with your 2h sword, you know. Or play siege.
Actually, it should be like that. In medieval times, cavalry was kind of the deciding factor. You can always carry a lawlpike along with your 2h sword, you know. Or play siege.
Cavalry isn't overpowered. Infantry just tends to have a lot of retards and Rambo's
You won't be able to force the majority of the players to do something like that, and the entire point is, when the majority of your team is vulnerable to cavalry, it doesn't matter if a small number can handle them without effort. Yeah, it is realistic when cav is the deciding factor, it would also be realistic if plate armor made you immortal, but c-rpg is about balance, not realism.
Why not? You currently have to use a shield, if you don't want to get shot. Does this, too, mean that balance is off?
The ultimate truth is, that cavalry punishes you for poor tactical decisions. I think it makes you play more as a team. If you don't, cavalry will be the deciding factor really fast. If your team spreads out in multiple places cavalry gains. If you are being in a tight group with some polearmers and throwers at the edges, cav can't do anything.
You have to carry a shield to avoid being shot, you have to carry a long pokey weapon to avoid cavalry, what do I do with my last slot?
Let's face it. Cav are backstabbers, more than anything. Extremely efficient backstabbers too.
You know I am member of a gaming community with hondred members based upon a shooter, also low admin on one server there, and well... it is just the same as here:
98% of posts regarding what to change are nothing but low skill people whining because high skill people PWN them like hell. (And people who played only a few hourse and have only basic equipment whininh because people who spent weeks saving up for the warhorse or plate armor do bid damage and take low.)
For the remaining 2%, well... Try to make your voice stand out of the crowd... Good luck, you will need it.
Do you know how cav make such high scores?Epic trolling. Finally someone made me laugh that way.
Couched heavy lance, of course. Remove it and their scores will suffer, greatly.
Why not? You currently have to use a shield, if you don't want to get shot. Does this, too, mean that balance is off?
That's not the point, the point is who tops the scoreboards, and I see more cav than anyone else, by far.
Honestly, my only character is cav, if I am for nerfing cav, it's most likely overpowered.
Played some cav today. STF with low armor and the cheapest horse the sumpter.
From before I have extremely limited cav experience, won maybe half of my cav duels and even got a positive KD ratio.
This was my first rounds on a sumpter..
Another point was that it was extremely lame and boring to play.
If anything I'm more convinced that cav is too easy to play, and adds nothing but lameness to the battlefield.
Horselovers, I hope changes come your way.
Horselovers, I hope changes come your way.
... Another point was that it was extremely lame and boring to play.
A big list of changes from someone who hates a class.visitors can't see pics , please register or login
And your solution seems to revolve around making it even more boring.
Eww horse penis.It's my horse after he bumped Thomek to death ^^
I love how the rating of the OP is zero even though twenty people voted on it.
Do you know how cav make such high scores?
Couched heavy lance, of course. Remove it and their scores will suffer, greatly.
Considering that a thrust from a heavy lance is almost as powerful but has about + 50 length I don't think it will make a major difference. :)
Make it so that ONLY THE FUCKING COUCHE LANCES CAN BE ABLE TO COUCHE, instead of making it so that even light, lance, and heavy lance can couche, its TOTAL bullshait, if the user has 1 wpf in polearm and 0 PS, you can still 1 hit a tincan. Utter bullshait. RAGE*!He can still 1 hit you with 1 wpf in pole and 0ps he just takes couching lance. I believe however that there is 0 melee cavalry with 0 ps I assure you. It's not utter bs. You are utter bs for letting yourself to be couched. WEAK!
I think simply increasing the SOUND OF HOOVES incoming, would help alot more than drastically changing everything. And no, dont say go download heavy hooves, just make it part of crpg, so that its no longer a factor based on downloading something everytime theres a patch, and so that everyone gets it.
Also, throwers have equalized alot of the perceived disparity between cav and footmen.
AND what crpg needs badly is a TEST SERVER. I've heard talk of eliminating EU 4. Make it a test server, and let people see some options for a month or 2 instead of cringing and over thinking every little change that might cause a shit storm of whining about imbalance.
Cav is supposed to be scary and powerful, and takes quite a bit out of ones build, and costs alot to maintain compared to a footman and all the looms they can thus buy because they arent spending on a horse, a shield and 2 weapons every round.
As for the the OP's ideas? Well if we had a test server, it wouldnt be exactly a big deal to try out as described, now would it?
Chagan, archery has also been hit quite hard; a decent horse can soak up a good bit of fire, and so can a horseman (in mail). This contributed a lot.
ive said it many times now, but people just lack the imagination to understand it, the amount of cav now is because the change of the lance angle,
new lance angle made lancers much less effective at killing other cav, as now you need to have your enemy in front of you to kill, before good lancer could take out 5 other cav in quick fight if they were better than them
when i made khans extravaganza cav tourney, it hit me that more than 90% of cav couldnt imagine a fight without dehorsing other player, before lance angle change aiming for the rider was the thing to do
so now imagine that in the battle you try and have a cav fight, which probably will get you dehorsed, how many people will keep trying cav fight before they realise going for infantry is much better ? sure cav fights still happen, but its not what it used to be, the cav fights for lancers were much more exciting and more people wanted to go for them than now, and we did. you had to "earn" your right to be riding a horse with so many dedicated anti-cav cav
every map started with big cav clash and only the survivors of that clash went for the infantry, now i see many cav going for infantry rather than cav and im not saint here, if i see 5 cav i know i cant take them all out with current mechanics, you can kill one and than get 4 of them on your back and be dehorsed or killed
the irony is that the change came from infantry, and without them realising it, it turned on them big
So Thomek, in my thread you finally admitted that this is meant to be a nerf, so, how about changing the title to Final Solution for Cavalry. (Make it.. NERFED) and cutting the crap?
EU, and yes, cav is relatively rare, but they still have an overwhelming presense compared to the average infantry guy.
Oh, I completely agree. I'm just saying that playing on EU_1 is not enjoyable since you have to look backward more than forward due to the cav ninjas. I explicitly stated that I'm not a fan of nerfing cav to reduce their number, nor am I a fan of limiting their number artificially.
What I really want is pocket bamboo spears. That put the fear of god in them :wink:(click to show/hide)
Just checked EU_1, about 12 cav on with 55 players. That essentially means that finding and fighting a small group of enemies without getting bumped is out of the question.
Just checked EU_1, about 12 cav on with 55 players. That essentially means that finding and fighting a small group of enemies without getting bumped is out of the question.
Nerf or no nerf to cav, call it whatever you want. I want it to be a CHANGE, but yes, a nerf would do it too. And many people read my change as a nerf. BTW, I am sympathetic to horse throwers Zlisch. Think it's a cool and challenging class. Perhaps this suggestion would kill it, idk.Ok, I'm gonna give you one decent reply, then I'll go off posting pics of horsedicks like all the other cav are doing here.
The main thing, which is difficult to grasp for most it seems, is that I wan't to change how a whole class works on the battlefield. The maneuver nerfs are supposed to be accompanied by buffs in all other areas. UNTIL IT IS BALANCED AGAIN. Perhaps indirectly including most polearms not being able to rear horses. If ONLY pikes were able to do it, it would make everyone think and move differently, and cav would most certainly be more effective used in groups.
* A single horse would be easier to avoid by using terrain.
* Greatswords would no longer have the chance to 1 hit kill a horse, thus reducing the no.1 reason to take one.
* It would be harder to do the lazors precision lance headshot on a moving target.
* Cav groups would be effective against infantry groups, if they outnumber the number of pikes. (If too many pikes, the cav group should just choose another part of the infantry, or another group of infantry.
Anyway.. Cheers.
Enjoy the current situation of random mayhem.
Well, 6 cav per side on a team of 22 or so seems balanced. I think it's normal to worry about getting bumped when there are cav. Just like if the team had 6 archers, you can expect to get shot at while trying to engage in melee. Just like if there are 10 melee players. You can expect to have to have to engage in melee.Difference is that when there's 6 cav per side, there are 12 threats to my person that I can't avoid. I can avoid friendly ranged and melee by being far enough from them. Being far from teammates attracts enemy cavalry or if staying relatively close to the mass zerg it feels like you're fighting on an autobahn. You're lucky if you're not roadkill. I know most friendly cav mean well, but I'd rather have them somewhere else hunting enemy cavalry and keeping them away from me.
The blocking with lances (Specifically from horseback) the way it works right now is ridiculous. the shield 'force-field' is silly enough, but somewhat acceptable, though it should be smaller - the Lance blocking force field is ludicrous, as its a stupid stick blocking everthing, even a stab, and even when facing the opposite direction.
@Zlisch*Posts a horsedick picture*
The louder thing has been discussed to death, and devs have confirmed they cannot fix it. Engine limitation.
Would require rewriting of the whole sound engine. Making all horses simply louder would not help, perhaps it would even become more confusing as you would hear many more cav at the same time. You'd have to change how sounds volume change according to distance.
HA is not a problem nowadays. I can't remember last time I saw one topping the board. It's an underpowered class, and the devs have made it consciously so because it's extremely lame, and not good for gameplay. Besides I'd think it requires mw bow and arrows at least to be effective.
Making horses MORE maneuverable would be insane in my mind. Perhaps if the lances got nerfed, so hybrids couldn't have such an easy time. In any case, It's insanely unrealistic that pikes and lances can be used effectively to block anyway :D
Archers won't aim for horses, because they've seen the riders pick up a new horse within 5 seconds too many times.
The speedbonus thing won't change. Hardcoded stuff. Probably very very far down on cmpx todo list.
The rider taking damage has been mentioned a million times. IDK but perhaps the devs will finally make it happen. I'm pretty sure its buried in some todo list.
The whistling for horses is also ridiculous. Like any horseman could get his enemy's horse over to himself! I know it's a cool feature and it should be in, but make ANYONE whistle *or horse call or whatever bring any horse like it was in the beginning.
-------------------------------
Pure nerfs to counter their numbers and effectiveness:
Nerf lance damage. They would still do tons of damage couched, but would not be so dangerous unless riding very fast. They would further be less useful in melee.
Blah. .to tired to write more naow..
I think you are right here Chagan.
But it doesn't change the fact that Cav was even more effective against infantry back then.. :)
I think it needs some other kind of change. Perhaps my suggestion is a bit boring for cav players, and hence all the rage.
One thing I totally agree with as posted above.
The blocking with lances (Specifically from horseback) the way it works right now is ridiculous. the shield 'force-field' is silly enough, but somewhat acceptable, though it should be smaller - the Lance blocking force field is ludicrous, as its a stupid stick blocking everthing, even a stab, and even when facing the opposite direction.
Since i am a cav again i must say you inf ARE SO FUCKING STUPID!!
You hear horse is nearby,and you don't press ~ to see if anyone is comming from behind and you get backstabbed. Not cav fault that you are unaware.
Inf gank up together,oh we are so hardcore,we can separate from group and fight them with swords. Yeah,lets kill cav. Then one horsman come and start to circle arround them,poke one shield,avoid getting hitted,and wile inf is busy chasing that cav,other cav goes and couch kill one. Then inf usualy get separated or start chasing that horsman who killed one,and then other cav bump stab other dude because he have short sword,and no one is guarding him.
And we repeat this process untill we kill all infrantery in that group. Not cav fault cuz inf is stupid.
Killer combination that i realy hate is piker and good archer together. That can dehorse few horsman and can counter cav or when archers climb roof or hill and start shooting. Usualy we let someone get dehorsed,and use him to attack piker,so we can kill archer,and then bump piker so dehorsed dude can kill him.
There is a lot of tactic in playing cav,and you always die not because cav is Op. You die cuz you are not aware enough of ur sorrounding,you get separated from group,you don't guard archers,you are not close to piker,you think you are safe because teammates are in front of you,well ur not.
You die because of your mistake.
Cav is usualy fighting other cav,and when they finish fighting they go and kill what is left of infrantery and archers because they are separated and badly wounded from fighting others.
ok,but then remove blocking with bamboo spear,pike,long spear and other long and heavy items that can block like they are holding a stick.
Big swords also sould be nerfed so they can't block too fast as they block now.
I think the bumping is too good
Not for all horse, my rouncey with high riding still cannot bump kill anyone, very rarely and it doesn't do much bump damage, same goes with my palfey
If you read my post carefully I didn't address the bump damage. I talked about the low speed you need to knock someone down, which I believe should be higher. Bump damage is fine, I guess.
the chance to kock someone down = charge damage = bump damage, the lower the bump = the less chance to knock someone down , the higher the bump = more people you can knock them down
Problem is that the game doesn't know how to "push" someone aside. So either horses knock down infantry or infantry flat out stops horses like we had a long long time ago.
You can't be aware in all directions at any given time. That's not possible for a human. That being said, there's tons of people whose awareness is utter shit and they deserve to be backstabbed. One problem is that horses makes pretty low noise and you can't really decide from the noice how far away they are, how long it'll take for them to reach you or even in which direction they're charging from.
Melee cav (especially lancer) is by far the easiest class to play. They're able to pick their own fights, one-hit pretty much anything and escape fast from every possible danger at any given time. All that just for a mediocre increase in the repair bill. Any cav with decent awareness and decision-making should be top-scoring in most of the maps if the build/gear is not utter crap.
However, I don't think cav needs a hard nerf. I think the bumping is too good, considering you can bump down any infantry player even at very low speed. I would suggest that the amount of speed required to bump someone down should be increased. Otherwise I find it fine.
The blocking is not the problem, the force-field is. You can stab a horse in the face, but the shield/lance block will take the hit even though it's not even close. Blocking on horseback should be possible of course, but they should find a way to get rid off that bug
OK and did you tried to be lancer for one gen? To be effective you need champion horse and high riding skill 6 riding minimum.
Fighting inf is not hard,but inf can still kill you if they jump in opposite direction of ur lance swing,and that speed bonus you get is going against you. Agile 1h like byzantium plavor do this thing a lot.
Fighting inf and archers is not so hard,but fighting other lance and 1h cav and HA is the real thing. That require skill,and expirience.
1h cav will always use their shield raised and then try to stop you with their horse,and that shield will apsorb all impact from lance,and then they will cut ur horse to pieces and even kill you. Domusperkele,byzantium royans and few others use this tactic.
lace cav on arabian warhorse that is champ and with mw lance will paly like they are easy pray,but they will make attack and while the lance is still in air move their agile horse and stab you in face. They can dodge anything,and cut ur horse to pieces. Lungy ball with champ rouncey and mw light lance is very nasty opponent. Gk Kerrigan is best lancer in this game and he can kill aware piker. Fallen thimas was good lancer.
Hitboxes are fucked up with lance cav because if you are comming from behind enemy lancer you need to aim a little away from lancer body,but if you ride straight to him you need to aim little in front of him,and if you are comming from side you need to move again in front of him to be able to hit him. If you have lance or light lance you will not be able to cocudh enemy cav from side. So you need a lot of feeling for lancing to know when to release lance,where to aim,how to dodge arrows,other horses,where to move,where to not move,when to attack piker or archer,and when not.
Yeah there is not much blocking involved in cav,but it require skill. Yeah we can all see that my old friends on coursers that only couch ppl on spawn,but they die very fast when they encouter other cav.
(like YOU Thomek)Thomek hates cav so much he didn't even unmute me after I saved his life by killing like 3 guys attacking him (at least one of them lancers), stoping another cav about to lance him while he was meleeing two guys I then bumped and afterwards I bumped an archer about to shot him...
I luv cav.
I repeat - remove couch except for couching only lances. If you do not like this idea, you are a shitty.
Give back lance thrust radius - put some fun back into cav v cav.
Oh, and halve horsebump, don't give me a realism argument you shitties. The idea of small bumps not knocking down removes the chance of bump slashes from missing you while prone :P
Sounds - short version - deal with it.(click to show/hide)
Gk Kerrigan is best lancer in thisgamecontinent
He's the top EU lancer in my opinion, except for maybe Leed, but he's unfortunately not playing anymore.
I remember when he started playing... he has had a lot of practice with lancing.
Originally Dede was 2H cav, just like Kastamonulu is now. He switched to lancer after upkeep patch I think.
Wolf is excellent cav too, very few people can win cav duel against him.