Author Topic: Final Solution for Cavalry. (Make it.. different)  (Read 21003 times)

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Offline Zlisch_The_Butcher

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Re: Final Solution for Cavalry. (Make it.. different)
« Reply #210 on: June 09, 2012, 12:31:26 am »
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Nerf or no nerf to cav, call it whatever you want. I want it to be a CHANGE, but yes, a nerf would do it too. And many people read my change as a nerf.  BTW, I am sympathetic to horse throwers Zlisch. Think it's a cool and challenging class. Perhaps this suggestion would kill it, idk.

The main thing, which is difficult to grasp for most it seems, is that I wan't to change how a whole class works on the battlefield. The maneuver nerfs are supposed to be accompanied by buffs in all other areas. UNTIL IT IS BALANCED AGAIN. Perhaps indirectly including most polearms not being able to rear horses. If ONLY pikes were able to do it, it would make everyone think and move differently, and cav would most certainly be more effective used in groups.

* A single horse would be easier to avoid by using terrain.
* Greatswords would no longer have the chance to 1 hit kill a horse, thus reducing the no.1 reason to take one.
* It would be harder to do the lazors precision lance headshot on a moving target.
* Cav groups would be effective against infantry groups, if they outnumber the number of pikes. (If too many pikes, the cav group should just choose another part of the infantry, or another group of infantry.

Anyway.. Cheers.

Enjoy the current situation of random mayhem.
Ok, I'm gonna give you one decent reply, then I'll go off posting pics of horsedicks like all the other cav are doing here.

Yes, it would kill horsethrowing, it would make all HAs use coursers or something to ride forever too as they couldn't outmaneuver less skilled riders anymore, it would make cav less about skill, which lancing has already been idiotified by nerfing the angle, Thomek, yes, some really REALLY good cav can have millimeter precision, just like some really REALLY good infantry players can survive huge clusterfucks of them vs everyone else. I personally ain't that good a lancer, but even I can get several kills with a couched lance and 0 PS, there are issues with cav, but your suggestion would worsen the situation, not help correct it.

Cav really don't dodge arrows very good, most archers who bother shooting at cav just suck, the good ones will be headshootin' infantry or some shit, whenever I aim for a horse I hear the sound that I've hit flesh about 9 out of 10 times, and I'm a rather bad archer.

Trust me when I say being a cav on a mountain sucks, you're slow, maneuver like a rock, etc, it may seem like it's some easy shit but it really ain't always, and honestly, when have you last had an active cav alt?

My solution to cav would instead be to make it more skill based by making horses louder so EVERYONE can hear them far before they lance your back, to give lancers their old angle, to remove blocking from the heavy lance and medium lance, and make the heavy lance three slot, this would only hurt cav hybrids who are FAR too effective given all they need is 3 riding and two slots and then they can work nearly as well as most dedicated builds.
Now, make horses much faster and more maneuverable, this will make riders require better reflexes and timing, making HTing, HAing, Lancing, HXing, 1hcaving, and all that shit much harder, and it'll also make it harder to avoid, so it'll require more skill on both sides, I believe the projectile damage and health on cav is fine/will be fine once/if they've remove(d) the leg damage. Now, finally this still leaves one of the gayer cav playstyles untouched, HAing in the way of riding away forever, never actually charging at other cav in order to gain speed bonus, 'cuss they only need the other cav to be charging at them to gain their speed bonus, so make the shooters speed mater, and make it mater slightly more than what he's shooting at, 'cuss it sucks that a guy fleeing from me can take me out in one arrow to the stomach while he takes 3 throwing lances to the shoulder/chest area, this will also FORCE HA to take some risks and along with the previous mentioned increase in cav speed they'll need better reflexes in order not to be hit by unexpected movement and lanced.

and to make cav group charges effective make polearm thrusts with the slightest speed bonus insta dehorse.

Oh, and because I forgot to include it make rider take heavy damage once his horse dies, so if you're on a crippled horse you will consider getting off instead of riding around raping the butts of further random infantry busy fighting...

This is pretty much the opposite of what you want now that I think about it... heh...
1H stab is the fastest, strongest and longest 1H animation. There's no reason NOT to use it in all instances. I don't know if it's OP, but it's boring. 1H used to be fun because you had a fast (left), long (right) and the most devastating attack (stab) and had to choose the best attack for each occasion.

Offline Ninja_Khorin

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Re: Final Solution for Cavalry. (Make it.. different)
« Reply #211 on: June 09, 2012, 12:37:53 am »
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I come from the school of thought that if I die, it's not because of my weapon. It's because of my inadequacy in using said weapon.

I'd rather die in style and maybe survive a similar situation next time. I just don't always feel like concentrating on the game that much and that's when I go to siege.

Well, 6 cav per side on a team of 22 or so seems balanced.  I think it's normal to worry about getting bumped when there are cav.  Just like if the team had 6 archers, you can expect to get shot at while trying to engage in melee.  Just like if there are 10 melee players.  You can expect to have to have to engage in melee.
Difference is that when there's 6 cav per side, there are 12 threats to my person that I can't avoid. I can avoid friendly ranged and melee by being far enough from them. Being far from teammates attracts enemy cavalry or if staying relatively close to the mass zerg it feels like you're fighting on an autobahn. You're lucky if you're not roadkill. I know most friendly cav mean well, but I'd rather have them somewhere else hunting enemy cavalry and keeping them away from me.

I agree on the rest.

Offline Vingnir the Wanderer

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Re: Final Solution for Cavalry. (Make it.. different)
« Reply #212 on: June 09, 2012, 01:09:27 am »
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One thing I totally agree with as posted above.

The blocking with lances (Specifically from horseback) the way it works right now is ridiculous.  the shield 'force-field' is silly enough, but somewhat acceptable, though it should be smaller - the Lance blocking force field is ludicrous, as its a stupid stick blocking everthing, even a stab, and even when facing the opposite direction.

Offline Thomek

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Re: Final Solution for Cavalry. (Make it.. different)
« Reply #213 on: June 09, 2012, 01:39:04 am »
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@Zlisch
The louder thing has been discussed to death, and devs have confirmed they cannot fix it. Engine limitation.
Would require rewriting of the whole sound engine. Making all horses simply louder would not help, perhaps it would even become more confusing as you would hear many more cav at the same time. You'd have to change how sounds volume change according to distance.

HA is not a problem nowadays. I can't remember last time I saw one topping the board. It's an underpowered class, and the devs have made it consciously so because it's extremely lame, and not good for gameplay. Besides I'd think it requires mw bow and arrows at least to be effective.

Making horses MORE maneuverable would be insane in my mind. Perhaps if the lances got nerfed, so hybrids couldn't have such an easy time. In any case, It's insanely unrealistic that pikes and lances can be used effectively to block anyway :D

Archers won't aim for horses, because they've seen the riders pick up a new horse within 5 seconds too many times.

The speedbonus thing won't change. Hardcoded stuff. Probably very very far down on cmpx todo list.

The rider taking damage has been mentioned a million times. IDK but perhaps the devs will finally make it happen. I'm pretty sure its buried in some todo list.

The whistling for horses is also ridiculous. Like any horseman could get his enemy's horse over to himself! I know it's a cool feature and it should be in, but make ANYONE whistle *or horse call or whatever bring any horse like it was in the beginning.
-------------------------------
Pure nerfs to counter their numbers and effectiveness:

Nerf lance damage. They would still do tons of damage couched, but would not be so dangerous unless riding very fast. They would further be less useful in melee.

Blah. .to tired to write more naow..
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Offline Penitent

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Re: Final Solution for Cavalry. (Make it.. different)
« Reply #214 on: June 09, 2012, 01:41:47 am »
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They CAN fix the sound.  The hoof sound effect used to be more audible.  I remember when they changed it (don't remember the update).  It wasn't louder, but it had a sharply toned "clack clack" and was easier to hear.  Now it is a lower/softer "pat pat" that is harder to hear amid the other sounds of batter.

Try it.  When a horse is walking the sharp "clack" stands out more than the soft-thumping bass sound of a full galloping horse.

Quote
The blocking with lances (Specifically from horseback) the way it works right now is ridiculous.  the shield 'force-field' is silly enough, but somewhat acceptable, though it should be smaller - the Lance blocking force field is ludicrous, as its a stupid stick blocking everthing, even a stab, and even when facing the opposite direction.

This would actually be a fair way to "fix" cav by changing them a bit but not too much to affect play.  Sometimes a shield block (or lance block!) blocks strikes at the horse too.  Fixing the block radius, if possible, but be good I think.

I am completely 100% against nerfing cav, because I think they are as close to balanced as they can be.  However, fixing the block or adjusting the sound would help things for some people and I wouldn't consider it a  nerf but a fix.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2012, 01:47:54 am by Garison »

Offline Zlisch_The_Butcher

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Re: Final Solution for Cavalry. (Make it.. different)
« Reply #215 on: June 09, 2012, 01:54:19 am »
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@Zlisch
The louder thing has been discussed to death, and devs have confirmed they cannot fix it. Engine limitation.
Would require rewriting of the whole sound engine. Making all horses simply louder would not help, perhaps it would even become more confusing as you would hear many more cav at the same time. You'd have to change how sounds volume change according to distance.

HA is not a problem nowadays. I can't remember last time I saw one topping the board. It's an underpowered class, and the devs have made it consciously so because it's extremely lame, and not good for gameplay. Besides I'd think it requires mw bow and arrows at least to be effective.

Making horses MORE maneuverable would be insane in my mind. Perhaps if the lances got nerfed, so hybrids couldn't have such an easy time. In any case, It's insanely unrealistic that pikes and lances can be used effectively to block anyway :D

Archers won't aim for horses, because they've seen the riders pick up a new horse within 5 seconds too many times.

The speedbonus thing won't change. Hardcoded stuff. Probably very very far down on cmpx todo list.

The rider taking damage has been mentioned a million times. IDK but perhaps the devs will finally make it happen. I'm pretty sure its buried in some todo list.

The whistling for horses is also ridiculous. Like any horseman could get his enemy's horse over to himself! I know it's a cool feature and it should be in, but make ANYONE whistle *or horse call or whatever bring any horse like it was in the beginning.
-------------------------------
Pure nerfs to counter their numbers and effectiveness:

Nerf lance damage. They would still do tons of damage couched, but would not be so dangerous unless riding very fast. They would further be less useful in melee.

Blah. .to tired to write more naow..
*Posts a horsedick picture*
1H stab is the fastest, strongest and longest 1H animation. There's no reason NOT to use it in all instances. I don't know if it's OP, but it's boring. 1H used to be fun because you had a fast (left), long (right) and the most devastating attack (stab) and had to choose the best attack for each occasion.

Offline KaMiKaZe_JoE

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Re: Final Solution for Cavalry. (Make it.. different)
« Reply #216 on: June 09, 2012, 02:27:26 am »
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You know what, fuck what I said earlier. Just fuck it and Thomek's idea.

I want my lance angle back, or I want WSE to be used to get something inbetween the current angle (couch angle, right?) and the older angle.

That's it, really. I'd worry about other cav less, because I'm fucking awesome and will have probably demolished the entire contingent of opposing cavalry. I'd murder a similar amount of infantry, because all I ever do is race-car past them and stab them in the back or just outreach them with the heavy lance--the increased angle would just mean I could 1v1 enemy infantry more easily, not that it really matters. The only time I ever die is when I'm not paying attention--ironically, just like my victims; a pike will appear out of nowhere, or some other polearm, or I'll get shot.

Good times, give me my angle.
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Offline Chagan_Arslan

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Re: Final Solution for Cavalry. (Make it.. different)
« Reply #217 on: June 09, 2012, 12:30:23 pm »
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I think you are right here Chagan.

But it doesn't change the fact that Cav was even more effective against infantry back then.. :)
I think it needs some other kind of change. Perhaps my suggestion is a bit boring for cav players, and hence all the rage.

Thomek would you take a 10% increase of cav effectivness vs aware inf with 50+% decrease in cav vs inf situations on servers ?


Offline Kerrigan

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Re: Final Solution for Cavalry. (Make it.. different)
« Reply #218 on: June 09, 2012, 03:16:20 pm »
+1
I don't understand. It is only the Arabian Warhorse that can do the fast maneuvering and I think that horse is pretty damn balanced. Needs a lot of riding skill, has high upkeep, has very weak armor, hp and low charge damage.

Nerfing the one thing that makes this horse good would be a craven thing to do!

Anyways I think most people are content with how the cav is now, except for serious cav haters (like YOU Thomek :P but that's because you are a Ninja and cav is in your way on the map)

Cav has been nerfed so many times already, why do you have to keep hating. You are treating us like the Germans treated Jews back in the second world war. Telling the people you want to change us but essentially you want to terminate us! Why don't u just take a spear with you on your Ninja journeys through the map?

« Last Edit: June 09, 2012, 03:22:58 pm by Kerrigan »
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Offline Mlekce

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Re: Final Solution for Cavalry. (Make it.. different)
« Reply #219 on: June 09, 2012, 03:36:59 pm »
+1
Since i am a cav again i must say you inf ARE SO FUCKING STUPID!!
You hear horse is nearby,and you don't press ~ to see if anyone is comming from behind and you get backstabbed. Not cav fault that you are unaware.
Inf gank up together,oh we are so hardcore,we can separate from group and fight them with swords. Yeah,lets kill cav. Then one horsman come and start to circle arround them,poke one shield,avoid getting hitted,and wile inf is busy chasing that cav,other cav goes and couch kill one. Then inf usualy get separated or start chasing that horsman who killed one,and then other cav bump stab other dude because he have short sword,and no one is guarding him.
And we repeat this process untill we kill all infrantery in that group. Not cav fault cuz inf is stupid.
Killer combination that i realy hate is piker and good archer together. That can dehorse few horsman and can counter cav or when archers climb roof or hill and start shooting. Usualy we let someone get dehorsed,and use him to attack piker,so we can kill archer,and then bump piker so dehorsed dude can kill him.
There is a lot of tactic in playing cav,and you always die not because cav is Op. You die cuz you are not aware enough of ur sorrounding,you get separated from group,you don't guard archers,you are not close to piker,you think you are safe because teammates are in front of you,well ur not.
You die because of your mistake.
Cav is usualy fighting other cav,and when they finish fighting they go and kill what is left of infrantery and archers because they are separated and badly wounded from fighting others.

Offline Mlekce

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Re: Final Solution for Cavalry. (Make it.. different)
« Reply #220 on: June 09, 2012, 03:42:25 pm »
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One thing I totally agree with as posted above.

The blocking with lances (Specifically from horseback) the way it works right now is ridiculous.  the shield 'force-field' is silly enough, but somewhat acceptable, though it should be smaller - the Lance blocking force field is ludicrous, as its a stupid stick blocking everthing, even a stab, and even when facing the opposite direction.

ok,but then remove blocking with bamboo spear,pike,long spear and other long and heavy items that can block like they are holding a stick.
Big swords also sould be nerfed so they can't block too fast as they block now.

Offline Gurnisson

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Re: Final Solution for Cavalry. (Make it.. different)
« Reply #221 on: June 09, 2012, 03:58:28 pm »
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Since i am a cav again i must say you inf ARE SO FUCKING STUPID!!
You hear horse is nearby,and you don't press ~ to see if anyone is comming from behind and you get backstabbed. Not cav fault that you are unaware.
Inf gank up together,oh we are so hardcore,we can separate from group and fight them with swords. Yeah,lets kill cav. Then one horsman come and start to circle arround them,poke one shield,avoid getting hitted,and wile inf is busy chasing that cav,other cav goes and couch kill one. Then inf usualy get separated or start chasing that horsman who killed one,and then other cav bump stab other dude because he have short sword,and no one is guarding him.
And we repeat this process untill we kill all infrantery in that group. Not cav fault cuz inf is stupid.
Killer combination that i realy hate is piker and good archer together. That can dehorse few horsman and can counter cav or when archers climb roof or hill and start shooting. Usualy we let someone get dehorsed,and use him to attack piker,so we can kill archer,and then bump piker so dehorsed dude can kill him.
There is a lot of tactic in playing cav,and you always die not because cav is Op. You die cuz you are not aware enough of ur sorrounding,you get separated from group,you don't guard archers,you are not close to piker,you think you are safe because teammates are in front of you,well ur not.
You die because of your mistake.
Cav is usualy fighting other cav,and when they finish fighting they go and kill what is left of infrantery and archers because they are separated and badly wounded from fighting others.

You can't be aware in all directions at any given time. That's not possible for a human. That being said, there's tons of people whose awareness is utter shit and they deserve to be backstabbed. One problem is that horses makes pretty low noise and you can't really decide from the noice how far away they are, how long it'll take for them to reach you or even in which direction they're charging from.

Melee cav (especially lancer) is by far the easiest class to play. They're able to pick their own fights, one-hit pretty much anything and escape fast from every possible danger at any given time. All that just for a mediocre increase in the repair bill. Any cav with decent awareness and decision-making should be top-scoring in most of the maps if the build/gear is not utter crap.

However, I don't think cav needs a hard nerf. I think the bumping is too good, considering you can bump down any infantry player even at very low speed. I would suggest that the amount of speed required to bump someone down should be increased. Otherwise I find it fine.

ok,but then remove blocking with bamboo spear,pike,long spear and other long and heavy items that can block like they are holding a stick.
Big swords also sould be nerfed so they can't block too fast as they block now.

The blocking is not the problem, the force-field is. You can stab a horse in the face, but the shield/lance block will take the hit even though it's not even close. Blocking on horseback should be possible of course, but they should find a way to get rid off that bug
I voted Gurnisson cause of his fucking bendy pike, I swear noone can roflcopter stab like he can.

Offline _Tak_

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Re: Final Solution for Cavalry. (Make it.. different)
« Reply #222 on: June 09, 2012, 04:05:31 pm »
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I think the bumping is too good

Not for all horse, my rouncey with high riding still cannot bump kill anyone, very rarely and it doesn't do much bump damage, same goes with my palfey

Offline Gurnisson

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Re: Final Solution for Cavalry. (Make it.. different)
« Reply #223 on: June 09, 2012, 04:07:00 pm »
+1
Not for all horse, my rouncey with high riding still cannot bump kill anyone, very rarely and it doesn't do much bump damage, same goes with my palfey

If you read my post carefully I didn't address the bump damage. I talked about the low speed you need to knock someone down, which I believe should be higher. Bump damage is fine, I guess.
I voted Gurnisson cause of his fucking bendy pike, I swear noone can roflcopter stab like he can.

Offline _Tak_

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Re: Final Solution for Cavalry. (Make it.. different)
« Reply #224 on: June 09, 2012, 04:10:43 pm »
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If you read my post carefully I didn't address the bump damage. I talked about the low speed you need to knock someone down, which I believe should be higher. Bump damage is fine, I guess.

the chance to kock someone down = charge damage = bump damage, the lower the bump = the less chance to knock someone down , the higher the bump = more people you can knock them down