Final Solution for Cavalry. (Make it.. different)

[Sir_Ironlake]

Interesting idea.
 

++ for making stuff "unique" and powerfull in some instances weak in others


Consider possible problem: - side swings of swords / long swords by now much more manuverable inf. You might cause horses to be destroyed by non pike inf even more easly, because they can just dodge and slash, where horesman cant correct movment to lance the dodger or avoid slash = cav is dead and useless.

[Thomek]

well horses would have more HP, so it would be different.

They would also probably charge more straight on, and not do the millimeter accurate side-thrust.

[AdNecrias]

well horses would have more HP, so it would be different.

They would also probably charge more straight on, and not do the millimeter accurate side-thrust.

There's also the problem of most long 2 handers' lolstabs outreach any polearm apart from the longest lances on horse. idk how much is that hp buff you're talking about but if the tears guys can keep 1 hitting charging horses it'll be heaven for them (and hell for shielders).

[Roran Hawkins]

I agree completely.

Less manouvrability exept for expensive specialized horses, and more HP and charge damage. It's a 500kg horse going at 50km/h ffs.

Raise your hand if you have ever survived being trampled by a horse, or even warhorse!


I think it's a great idea, if both the nerf and the buff are only slightly, because:

-cav would become vulnerable to everything in common if manouvrability get's too low
-big cav charge damage increase would make cRPG community WHINE WHINE WHINE instead of thinking let's go stand behind that pikeman and help him, instead of mindlessy pursue that peasant


I think the best solution for charge damage will be is:

-return the multiplier to 2.0, instead of 1.5, prepatch it was 2.5
-use prepatch charge damage values

[Cepeshi]

Cavalry is like bunch of superheroes, jumping on roofs, flying miles high and avoiding everything you have.

On a more serious note, above poster, imagine your horse runs at 50kmh and it runs ONTO my sword, do you think it should survive? Physics!

I am able to dehorse guys even with barmace, but when i see some skilled cav guy, i am starting to hide behind our pikeman. Good cav guys can kill me with lance even when i know about them and i am prepared for them, bad ones are losing horses and sometimes life, when they get too close. The maneuverability issue, i could not agree more on that, the horses are way too flexible as it is now. But i do not mind it either, bump damage is still annoying and the knockback usually gets you killed, if your enemy has good cav support.

The idea of cav actually having to make larger circles to be able to effectively annoy infantry, totally for!

[Bonze]

I'm among those that find cavalry hopelessly screwed up in cRPG.

They have laughable charges, their horses can't take a beating etc, but they are also way too controllable.

My suggestion is simple:

Boost:
Charge damage
Horse hitpoints
Speed
Lance length (not as much as the LoC though)

Nerf:
Maneuverability. A lot. (enough so they can't stop or avoid a correctly timed and drawn pike when at near full speed.)

Reasoning is simple.

* The pro-cav in cRPG moves their horses around with millimeter precision. This is not realistic for anyone who ever rode a horse. They turn around on a dime, hitting you in the back about 3 seconds after you missed them. (Steppe horse at least) They can insta-stop..

* They get shot down from 2-3 hits from an archer or thrower. (But mysteriously survives a pike to the head..)

* They dodge arrows like a Ninja.. (This is the worst part, but vital for them of course, so I understand they have to do it)

* They run around in towns and mountains and rooftops and whatnot. Places where a horse would never be preferred.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

Have you ever played  cav for a longer time ??
I think NO.

First make a topic "nerf swing speed ,  mach8 running ,  ueber jump and side step speed  for footsoldiers" then  come back and write somethings about  maneuverability and realism .

all your arguments are invalied


Seriously ? Millimeter precision against an enemy who  dancing/running with unreal 30 km/h ?
Footsoldiers have instant stop to ..curious. Special cravity only for horses??
Ive seen 1000.0000 players with bolts/arrows and throwing  stuff in their heads in their  legs but they runn runnnn runn with full speed .
True , Ninjas can dodge arrows  , bolts , bullets , a-10 strafing runs, nuclear strikes and black holes..ok enough . Now i understand why you want a speed buff...  (sarcasm off)
Ive never seen mountains in m&b,  just hills. Towns have street so they run around like devils.

The left pictures is far away from game reallity. 
 

[Xant]

Nerfing infantry swingspeed would only make it unrealistic, brah

in fact, increase the speeds so it'll be realistic plz

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwYi_uOwGtY

[Sultan_Khalifa]

sorry but if u lower manvurbilty weres the skill in being a good cav??

noob cav would be the same aas the pros without manvurbilty..

we aready get killed by ever one dont make it worse...

[Storm[HUN]]

Boost:
Charge damage
Horse hitpoints
Speed

Agree.

Nerf:
Maneuverability. A lot. (enough so they can't stop or avoid a correctly timed and drawn pike when at near full speed.)
...
This is not realistic for anyone who ever rode a horse.

It IS realistic for anyone who REALLY knows to ride, and not just thinks he can. That is abut 1 out of 1000 so called "horsemen".

Of course velocity counts as you can't suddenly turn around at very high speed but horses can still maneuver very well. High precision is also possible but requires a rider who is good not only in riding but in dressage (I mean the classical art, NOT the laughable "sport") as well.

However it is likely that in the middle ages most knights did not have much more clue about true riding art than sport rider today so in this light it makes sense that they could not achieve such perfection. We know some riding masters from later ages in Europe (Like for example Antoine de Pluvinel) but they taught only a very thin chosen "VIPs" like kings and princes, the ordinary knight did not have too much chance to access such knowledge. One notable master too from later ages is William Cavendish, First Duke of Newcastle Upon-Tyne who was not only one of the greatest warlords but also the greatest riding masters of his time - but this is another topic.

If you are by the way interested in early medieval combat, read King Duarte's manual titled Bem Cavalgar Toda Sela - though it is in Portuguese and sadly I do not know of any accessible English translation so I could not read it myself yet.

So, actually I was very happy to see how horse speed and maneuverability had been both raised compared to the first M&B game.

They can insta-stop.

With sliding stop you can stop a horse from full speed in a few seconds btw. It is more lame how they instantly stop and rear in one place when running into something.

* They get shot down from 2-3 hits from an archer or thrower. (But mysteriously survives a pike to the head..)

Well the archer part is realistic. Horses are very sensitive creatures and though they are relatively big and strong, an arrow or a well placed sword blow takes them out just as easily as a human. The pike, well... that should take them out too.

* They dodge arrows like a Ninja.. (This is the worst part, but vital for them of course, so I understand they have to do it)

This is a bit strong...

* They run around in towns and mountains and rooftops and whatnot. Places where a horse would never be preferred.

Rooftops and high cliff walls are unrealistic I agree. But what's your problem with towns?

Pikes would be MORE dangerous to cav, but cav would be MORE dangerous to non-pikemen.

That makes sense I agree.

My few cents...

[AdNecrias]

Well the archer part is realistic. Horses are very sensitive creatures and though they are relatively big and strong, an arrow or a well placed sword blow takes them out just as easily as a human. The pike, well... that should take them out too.

Well oddly enough people are also able not only to survive a pike but also to keep running and jumping superhuman heights.

If you guys want realism, arrows or bolts should kill in 1-2 hits. Sword swings at heavy armor should kill in 2-3 hits from blunt trauma, the same weapons should 1 hit people with leather and bellow, piercing weapons should have the same effectiveness as arrows and bolts, throwing weapons larger than the darts should 1 hit kill (apart from the axes on armoured dudes, where they'd deal less damage than swords, And all the mauls and blunt weapons should kill in 1-2 hits. Riders should be damaged when they fall down from their horses, people should almost die when trampled by a horse... And also forget balance.

[Bonze]

Nerfing infantry swingspeed would only make it unrealistic, brah

in fact, increase the speeds so it'll be realistic plz

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwYi_uOwGtY

43 sec. vid  Ok this guy without armor  is dead in a real battle . out of stamia in 5 min then R.I.P. xD

[Ujin]

Cavalry is like bunch of superheroes, jumping on roofs, flying miles high and avoiding everything you have.

On a more serious note, above poster, imagine your horse runs at 50kmh and it runs ONTO my sword, do you think it should survive? Physics!

I am able to dehorse guys even with barmace, but when i see some skilled cav guy, i am starting to hide behind our pikeman. Good cav guys can kill me with lance even when i know about them and i am prepared for them, bad ones are losing horses and sometimes life, when they get too close. The maneuverability issue, i could not agree more on that, the horses are way too flexible as it is now. But i do not mind it either, bump damage is still annoying and the knockback usually gets you killed, if your enemy has good cav support.

The idea of cav actually having to make larger circles to be able to effectively annoy infantry, totally for!

If i see a skilled guy who is prepared for me, i switch to a different target. It's a draw.

Maneuverability is what separates good horsemen who know how to use it from bad horsemen. It is more of a tool for survival than a killing tool, take that away and you can shove those extra hp/body armor points you-know-yourself-where.
 How about a "solution" for katanas -  give it + 7 damage and - 20 speed ? No ? Thought so. Maybe we should nerf katana chambers ? I mean , Khorin can chamber with a katana,wtf, there should be a "solution" to that.  What i'm pointing out here is that those "millimeter accurate side-thrusts" are  player-based skills , just like manual blocking and chambering.

Some horses are made entirely different, for example  on those 2 schemes you've drawn Thomek, scheme #1 somewhat looks like a sarranid horse, the other one - courser.  So what you are suggesting is imo a complete class-killer and an equaliser for bad players.

[PhantomZero]

How about you first fix how pikes and spears are able to do insane damage to horses and people while standing right next to the horse, and the horse being stationary, by using the shovelling motion or spinning around really fast.

Then fix how everyone has a pike or long spear in their back pocket, from archers to throwers to two-handers, and they can go into a thrust second after changing weapons.

Finally make less maps that require the ungodly precision of cavalry by being more open and less urban.

EDIT: And I loved the subtle reference to YMCA.

[Sultan_Khalifa]

If i see a skilled guy who is prepared for me, i switch to a different target. It's a draw.

Maneuverability is what separates good horsemen who know how to use it from bad horsemen. It is more of a tool for survival than a killing tool, take that away and you can shove those extra hp/body armor points you-know-yourself-where.
 How about a "solution" for katanas -  give it + 7 damage and - 20 speed ? No ? Thought so. Maybe we should nerf katana chambers ? I mean , Khorin can chamber with a katana,wtf, there should be a "solution" to that.  What i'm pointing out here is that those "millimeter accurate side-thrusts" are  player-based skills , just like manual blocking and chambering.

Some horses are made entirely different, for example  on those 2 schemes you've drawn Thomek, scheme #1 somewhat looks like a sarranid horse, the other one - courser.  So what you are suggesting is imo a complete class-killer and an equaliser for bad players.

i agree its a skill...

this is diffrencse between a good horsemen and a bad one if u see a horsemen charge i pike like thomke stated thats a bad one lol

[TommyHu]

ok so make cav less maneuverable because that's realistic...lets also make it so they veer away from hard objects like trees and buildings, lets make it so if you get trampled by a horse you're dead, I really doubt anyone would be in fighting condition after being hit by one...how about when you kill a horse charging you and it flies right through you. It should still have weight right? That should still count as a trample....what if it lands on you? Lets make it so you're stuck under the horse until your teammates come help it off you. or you could just carry around a pike, which costs $79 to repair, like everyone else is and you'll be fine.

Horses are hardly overpowered...The light ones can't survive more than a couple hits from projectiles. The whole idea that not everyone has a even chance to kill cav isn't a reason to change it. It's a reason to buy a pike or stay near your teammates who have one. Not to mention that we don't play random plains anymore so there are always some building you can get up against or into to completely negate the fact that there are even horses running about.