Final Solution for Cavalry. (Make it.. different)

[Adamar]

I can say that horses are harder to shoot down than before. Now rounceys and hunters are able to survive headshots from my loomed longbow, so that certainly had an impact on cav.

[bruce]

Personally, I would love to try lancing again but now feels like my lance hand is retarded and the only option is to use a sarranid and turn the horse around. Meh.

[Zlisch_The_Butcher]

So Thomek, in my thread you finally admitted that this is meant to be a nerf, so, how about changing the title to  Final Solution for Cavalry. (Make it.. NERFED) and cutting the crap?

[Gravoth_iii]

Give archers a forced autoaim towards horses untill there is nothing but infantry left! I hate when cav can charge headon all infantry and archers just stand there either doing nothing or shooting peasants.

[bruce]

Killing horses does not give +1.

Also they are very arrow-resilient now like riders are. My 12 str 0 IF mailed char rides around with three arrows (or a bolt from one of the lighter crossbows and an arrow).

[Thomek]

ive said it many times now, but people just lack the imagination to understand it, the amount of cav now is because the change of the lance angle,

new lance angle made lancers much less effective at killing other cav, as now you need to have your enemy in front of you to kill, before good lancer could take out 5 other cav in quick fight if they were better than them

when i made khans extravaganza cav tourney, it hit me that more than 90% of cav couldnt imagine a fight without dehorsing other player, before lance angle change aiming for the rider was the thing to do

so now imagine that in the battle you try and have a cav fight, which probably will get you dehorsed, how many people will keep trying cav fight before they realise going for infantry is much better ? sure cav fights still happen, but its not what it used to be, the cav fights for lancers were much more exciting and more people wanted to go for them than now, and we did. you had to "earn" your right to be riding a horse with so many dedicated anti-cav cav

every map started with big cav clash and only the survivors of that clash went for the infantry, now i see many cav going for infantry rather than cav and im not saint here, if i see 5 cav i know i cant take them all out with current mechanics, you can kill one and than get 4 of them on your back and be dehorsed or killed

the irony is that the change came from infantry, and without them realising it, it turned on them big

I think you are right here Chagan.

But it doesn't change the fact that Cav was even more effective against infantry back then..
I think it needs some other kind of change. Perhaps my suggestion is a bit boring for cav players, and hence all the rage.

So Thomek, in my thread you finally admitted that this is meant to be a nerf, so, how about changing the title to  Final Solution for Cavalry. (Make it.. NERFED) and cutting the crap?

Nerf or no nerf to cav, call it whatever you want. I want it to be a CHANGE, but yes, a nerf would do it too. And many people read my change as a nerf.  BTW, I am sympathetic to horse throwers Zlisch. Think it's a cool and challenging class. Perhaps this suggestion would kill it, idk.

The main thing, which is difficult to grasp for most it seems, is that I wan't to change how a whole class works on the battlefield. The maneuver nerfs are supposed to be accompanied by buffs in all other areas. UNTIL IT IS BALANCED AGAIN. Perhaps indirectly including most polearms not being able to rear horses. If ONLY pikes were able to do it, it would make everyone think and move differently, and cav would most certainly be more effective used in groups.

* A single horse would be easier to avoid by using terrain.
* Greatswords would no longer have the chance to 1 hit kill a horse, thus reducing the no.1 reason to take one.
* It would be harder to do the lazors precision lance headshot on a moving target.
* Cav groups would be effective against infantry groups, if they outnumber the number of pikes. (If too many pikes, the cav group should just choose another part of the infantry, or another group of infantry.

Anyway.. Cheers.

Enjoy the current situation of random mayhem.

[Ninja_Khorin]

My only problem with cavalry is the amount of them on the servers. The only way to fix that is to make the class horrible so people don't want to play it, which I'm not a fan of, or put a limit on how many horses can be on the servers at one time, which I'm not a fan of.

So, I don't know. I just play siege whenever I get bored of the mass cavalry battles, they need an admin anyway. Works for me.

[Vingnir the Wanderer]

^ Are you playing on EU or NA?

Because my character is cav capable, and I dont play cav all the time, but, on NA battle its not overloaded with cav - you rarely see more than 4-8 cav on a side that has 20-40 players.

And then you see none in siege of course, so, wouldnt one have to say cav is relatively RARE?

Could it be it seems that way because they survive longer than almost everyone else, because they can run away much easier than any other class can?

I mean, i admit, towards the end of the battle, you see more cav that has survived, but thats kinda to be expected, no?  (I would think a tin can with polearm skill would be the natural in-game and historical counter, no?)

[Ninja_Khorin]

EU, and yes, cav is relatively rare, but they still have an overwhelming presense compared to the average infantry guy.

[Vingnir the Wanderer]

Ah, havent been there lately.

I will say the post 31 builds with the loomed coursers are pretty hard to deal with, even as cav.  That takes a pretty 'battle specific' build though, what with the 6 riding points.  Although, 6 riding points is pretty easy to come bye, if youve stopped retiring.

I will say though, that the 'overwhelming presence' is costing that player A s-ton more gold to maintain than the average foot soldier.

If you spent as much on your foot soldier as a cav guy, the 'presence' I think might not be quite equal, but it sure the hell goes up. (think a loomed out tin-can like Goretooth, lol)

[Penitent]

EU, and yes, cav is relatively rare, but they still have an overwhelming presense compared to the average infantry guy.

It's true that the cav number are average to few on NA.  So it wouldn't really be fair to nerf/change them for the purpose of making them fewer...know what I mean?

Seems like a local problem.  ;)

[Ninja_Khorin]

Oh, I completely agree. I'm just saying that playing on EU_1 is not enjoyable since you have to look backward more than forward due to the cav ninjas. I explicitly stated that I'm not a fan of nerfing cav to reduce their number, nor am I a fan of limiting their number artificially.

What I really want is pocket bamboo spears. That put the fear of god in them 

(click to show/hide)

that was a joke, but also hilariously true

Just checked EU_1, about 12 cav on with 55 players. That essentially means that finding and fighting a small group of enemies without getting bumped is out of the question.

[Hunter_the_Honourable]

you dont need to nerf all horses just nerf the ones that have high maneuver (like the arabian) Personally I used a champion Destrier its not the fastest nor most maneuverable but has quite allot of HP and its fairly balanced. just because of a few horses like the courser and the arabian most people just generalize that all the horses are like that when their not, take Templar Tommy for example he can stab you with the nerfed lance angle and as he bumps you his turned around and coming at you again for another stab before your even standing because of the horse his on, nerf that specific horses maneuver speed and he will be foreced to either put more riding skill in or get a new horse like the steppe which has less maneuver and health (not sure of the stats sites down atm :L ) I personally see champion Courser and Arabian horses the most on the battle field and neither an be caught easily plus the Arabian seems to have similar HP to a Destrier....thats just not right IMO


My point is don't generalize all horses saying their all OP when its not all the horses, the steppe for example your telling me that horse is OP??!!! or the sumpter?? don't discuss nerfing ALL horses talk about what specific horses have dodgy stats and what can be done to balance them out

[Vingnir the Wanderer]

Oh, I completely agree. I'm just saying that playing on EU_1 is not enjoyable since you have to look backward more than forward due to the cav ninjas. I explicitly stated that I'm not a fan of nerfing cav to reduce their number, nor am I a fan of limiting their number artificially.

What I really want is pocket bamboo spears. That put the fear of god in them 

(click to show/hide)

that was a joke, but also hilariously true

Just checked EU_1, about 12 cav on with 55 players. That essentially means that finding and fighting a small group of enemies without getting bumped is out of the question.

Well you might wanna try doing what I do when i'm on battle, not using my horse, and see alot of cav.

I throw a boar spear on my back. Its cheap, and if you get good with it, you can murder peoples horses, also if they see it even on your back, they often avoid you. (Although I do have the advantage of some polearm skill points from the cav build)

I dunno if i should be giving advice though, i've been getting my ass kicked on battle lately, although, i think its because i've been more sober than usual lately, lol

[Penitent]

Just checked EU_1, about 12 cav on with 55 players. That essentially means that finding and fighting a small group of enemies without getting bumped is out of the question.

Well, 6 cav per side on a team of 22 or so seems balanced.  I think it's normal to worry about getting bumped when there are cav.  Just like if the team had 6 archers, you can expect to get shot at while trying to engage in melee.  Just like if there are 10 melee players.  You can expect to have to have to engage in melee.

We must try not to make this mod "melee and blade: warband."  It would be silly if someone said "Its impossible to ride around this map and not have to watch out for foot soldiers stabbing my horse."  Or "You can't stand behind a fence and shoot arrows without having to constantly worry about the threat from melee players.  It sucks."

Infantry, cav, ranged...they are all equally important to the mod.  If you are playing on a map with Cav, yes...you will have to worry about getting bumped while you engage in melee.