Final Solution for Cavalry. (Make it.. different)

[Thomek]

I'm among those that find cavalry hopelessly screwed up in cRPG.

They have laughable charges, their horses can't take a beating etc, but they are also way too controllable.

My suggestion is simple:

Boost:
Charge damage
Horse hitpoints
Speed
Lance length (not as much as the LoC though)

Nerf:
Maneuverability. A lot. (enough so they can't stop or avoid a correctly timed and drawn pike when at near full speed.)

Reasoning is simple.

* The pro-cav in cRPG moves their horses around with millimeter precision. This is not realistic for anyone who ever rode a horse. They turn around on a dime, hitting you in the back about 3 seconds after you missed them. (Steppe horse at least) They can insta-stop..

* They get shot down from 2-3 hits from an archer or thrower. (But mysteriously survives a pike to the head..)

* They dodge arrows like a Ninja.. (This is the worst part, but vital for them of course, so I understand they have to do it)

* They run around in towns and mountains and rooftops and whatnot. Places where a horse would never be preferred.

Pikes would be MORE dangerous to cav, but cav would be MORE dangerous to non-pikemen. This could lead to more teamwork among cav players. (As the benefit is bigger, and 1 pikeman can only deal with 1 horse. Cav in general would be as powerful as it is now, except they wouldn't be super ninja accurate, and if you had awareness, you would be safer. This would reward awareness among infantry players, as well as make cav more of a "use your brains" thing. Been playing as cav on my alt, and there is a lot of power in the mere overview over the battlefield. (Splitting groups, kiting etc..)

If the maneuverability get nerfed enough, they might get equal back in power, and we may see the dawn of the horse charge once again. (Except against a group of prepared pikemen, of course, and as it should be.)

A practical example of a situation with my suggested changes. (Including fine tuning lance length)

* Horseman is riding with lance couched towards a pikeman. Both are really nervous because there is a microsecond for both to decide between life and death. (Should be slightly easier for the pikeman, because Horsemen get way more training in lancing than the average pikeman, I think that it is currently to easy for the pikeman though.)

* The horseman knows he has no chance of turning away last minute. It's hit or die (horse die at least)

* The side-thrust becomes really tricky because of the more straight path of the horse. It becomes only for the expert. Correctly judging the speed of the footman and the horse.

* 4 cav vs a group of infantry with 2 pikemen in them. They charge simultaneously, but knows that 2 of them will most likely be dehorsed, but it's hard to tell who. They will surely kill, or destroy shields, as well as trample damage the whole group.

What do you think?

(Also: a lot of horsemen will try to compensate by adding more riding skill, which is good because they'll have to sacrifice their footman skills for it, becoming more specialized. My toon can 1 shot lots of enemies with a couched lance.. That's with 0PS and 1 Polearm prof.. (HA)
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[UrLukur]

I don't think that horses should be balanced around pikes. Rather around awlpikes or warspears.

[Thomek]

Ok, Doesn't really matter.

The point is that lances and spears should be balanced against each other, as they are the natural counter to each-other. If the cav decides to go for the peasant in front, then you should be able to stop it with a shorter wep of course.

I want to make riding more of a greater risk-reward game. Not just dodging backstabbing arrowdodging zealots. Infantry should fear them with their life, and cavalry should fear pikes/spears whatever with their life, and not simply turn away last moment.

[UrLukur]

Would be cool if cavalry would not do turn away with the thrust from side to gain reach.

[Gorath]

I really like the way you're brainstorming about cav re-design.  I agree with pretty much the whole thing.

[Joker86]

While I think you are on the right way (a complete class overhaul is the only thing to balance it finally), I think you still haven't found the best solution yet. Keep on searching, though 

[Sultan_Khalifa]

I think this well make things work, i found cav hard in the last hotfix but with the resnt one its better now so i dont think we need anything

if u reduce manvurbalty we well be f***** so no thanks

ohh and what horsemen in his right mind would charge a pike thats just dumb

[Whalen207]

I agree with sultan. You'd have to get an unsuspecting pikemen from the back to actually kill the little bastard.

~Lv.30 Medium Cavalry

[Thomek]

if u reduce manvurbalty we well be f***** so no thanks

This is a balancing question. How much hit points, speed, and charge bonus is a certain amount of less maneuverability worth?

[Ujin]

Thomek, your clan is  all about the movie heroes of VHS 80-90s in cRPG (no offence intended) and you're trying to use a realism argument when talking about balancing cavalry ?

Remove my maneuverability? So i will what, kamikaze-charge every pike /spear ? Where's the fun in playing a class  you can't control ?
 At the moment, wherever i go on my light cav guy, it's a bloody nightmare - throwers, spears, pikemen, horse throwers/xbowmen, archers etc.  And somehow people keep saying that cavalry is OP. Well, it's not-your battlefield awareness is underpowered people.
I need all the manueverability i can get just to avoid all the crap flying around me and my horse and all the pointy things trying to poke it.

And Thomek , i used to practice horse riding back in the days, but i think it has nothing to do with a videogame.


P.S. just give my heavy sarranid horse more hp plx- it dies from 1-2 throwing weapons .

[Dravic]

I agree with 1st post. Good idea, good job.

Devs, think about it!

@Ujin

Do you know, that your speed, when you get hit from thrower, will revenge on you? Your speed = bonus dmg from throwing weapon, really.

My suggestion: don't ride too close to thrower, but that is what you know. Second thing is to slow down as much as you can, when you see thrower aiming in you. Really, it helps. (I am thrower ;) )

[Ujin]

I agree with 1st post. Good idea, good job.

Devs, think about it!

@Ujin

Do you know, that your speed, when you get hit from thrower, will revenge on you? Your speed = bonus dmg from throwing weapon, really.

My suggestion: don't ride too close to thrower, but that is what you know. Second thing is to slow down as much as you can, when you see thrower aiming in you. Really, it helps. (I am thrower ;) )

It's all fine, but not when throwing weapons fly from all directions .

1 more thing, what Thomek drew on those schemes looks like  a = sarranid horse rider, b = courser rider. 

[Matey]

I agree that change is necessary.
I like the idea of lower base maneuver to force cav specialists into putting more points into riding. i think the hit point total is fine though. charge damage is fine too, cavalry do huge damage as is. the biggest thing that makes cav seem op, is the complete cluster fuck pant on head retarded scatter formation that teams usually adopt. when the patch first hit, cav raped, then everyone got a pike, and cav was meh, then cav got nerfed, and everyone stopped carrying a pike, and cav was scary, now cav is so expensive that its rare, but its still scary cause no one brings pikes. there is a hard counter for just about everything in crpg. pikes and siege xbows and throwing nonsense... all rip cav apart when used intelligently. just like axes and crushing weapons can deal with shields, and anything range can threaten 2handers/polearms. all in all, i say; lower the price on horses so that people can afford to play cav frequently... it really sucks for those who specialize in cavalry when they cant afford to bring their horse to the battlefield. secondly, maneuver nerf is a good idea, its retarded when you bust out the last second pike... and they skip merrily away to safety... it seems like its either pull it out too late and die, or if you pull it out at the last possible second... they can still disengage. another thing that i would LOVE to see, the ability to plant your pike/spear. seriously. you should be able to stick that sucker in the ground pointing out at cav and let them suicide into them. it would only be useful for teamwork.. but im guessing it would be hard to implement.. what about having a deployable pike as a siege shield type of thing? doable?

overall, cav as is, is super powerful but easily countered... except that no one brings pikes because its rare that anyone is willing to risk the 1k + repair cost to bring their horse. maybe just up pike damage a bit, lower cav maneuver a bit, and lower their maintenance costs a bit, and then just hope that people get smart and bring pikes... oh maybe lower pike price too, if its cheap enough that the repair cost wont hurt anyone, there should be enough people willing to bring them to counter cav.

[B3RS3RK]

I like the suggestion, even though Iam Cavalry.Major Buff in HP, Armor and Charge damage, but major nerf in Maneuverability.

Also, this would finally give a Reason for the Steppe Horse beeing so expensive(More Maneuver).


I really like this and I think chadz should try it.It should maybe be like in several racing games where with higher speed, your car gets more and more unmaneuverable.

Well, I dont think that a Change is necessary because atm its pretty ok balanced, but if we were to force a change I´d support Thomeks Idea.

[Siiem]

Insta stop a horse, ctrl+j is your friend. Major buff in HP, armour... derp, why not give cav keys to the city to begin with.