Final Solution for Cavalry. (Make it.. different)

[Thomek]

Jesus a lot of BS replies here.

Most of what you suggest is not possible to do because it's hardcoded by taleworlds. (Like fall-damage, horses avoiding obstacles etc.) (Ujin, there are swords with 7 less speed than katana, but they are also longer and have more damage, this is not about that at all. To the one criticizing my drawing, get some imagination, it's not a scale drawing, just an illustration to get the point out there, for those not able to read. )

What I'm suggesting is a TRADE OFF. It's NOT about nerfing cav in general.

to repeat myself:

1. NERF MANEUVERABILITY, by X amount
2. PUMP EVERYTHING ELSE, so that it makes up for that X amount of maneuverability nerf
3. POWER STAYS THE SAME
4. THIS X DOESN'T NEED TO BE EXTREME EVEN

I believe such changes will lead to more cooperation among horsemen, as well as infantry. And that terrain will be more important for cav than it currently is. It is also about forcing cav to use their brains, and get rewarded for that. Horsemen have so much power unused, they can kite, herd and split groups, they can surprise and manipulate the whole battlefield alone. They can have a great overview of the battlefield because they sit higher, they can function as scouts and report enemy movements to their team, they can choose their battles as no other class, the list goes on. 90% of them don't use that power.

[Sultan_Khalifa]

Jesus a lot of BS replies here.

Most of what you suggest is not possible to do because it's hardcoded by taleworlds. (Like fall-damage, horses avoiding obstacles etc.) (Ujin, there are swords with 7 less speed than katana, but they are also longer and have more damage, this is not about that at all. To the one criticizing my drawing, get some imagination, it's not a scale drawing, just an illustration to get the point out there, for those not able to read. )

What I'm suggesting is a TRADE OFF. It's NOT about nerfing cav in general.

to repeat myself:

1. NERF MANEUVERABILITY, by X amount
2. PUMP EVERYTHING ELSE, so that it makes up for that X amount of maneuverability nerf
3. POWER STAYS THE SAME
4. THIS X DOESN'T NEED TO BE EXTREME EVEN

I believe such changes will lead to more cooperation among horsemen, as well as infantry. And that terrain will be more important for cav than it currently is. It is also about forcing cav to use their brains, and get rewarded for that. Horsemen have so much power unused, they can kite, herd and split groups, they can surprise and manipulate the whole battlefield alone. They can have a great overview of the battlefield because they sit higher, they can function as scouts and report enemy movements to their team, they can choose their battles as no other class, the list goes on. 90% of them don't use that power.

yes but u want 2 nerf the only thing that lets us do all the things u listed munvarbilty i dont give a rats a** about hp or speed munvarbilty is the only thing thats worth being a horsemen right now it keeps me alive...

i think keep it like it is now its good...

[TommyHu]

I just don't think lowering cav maneuverability is a good idea for teamwork. In general, my main goal as cav is to protect the footmen on my team, not to go off and fight away from my teams horde. Ideally it would be a big mob of my inf/archers and myself riding along the edges engaging people moving in on my teammates. I pride myself on being able to protect a couple of my footmen teammates from a much larger horde moving in on them. Lowering maneuverability is going to mean I'll have to stay that much further from my teammates to be certain I'm not going to trample them.

[Balton]

How about you first fix how pikes and spears are able to do insane damage to horses and people while standing right next to the horse, and the horse being stationary, by using the shovelling motion or spinning around really fast.

Then fix how everyone has a pike or long spear in their back pocket, from archers to throwers to two-handers, and they can go into a thrust second after changing weapons.

Finally make less maps that require the ungodly precision of cavalry by being more open and less urban.

EDIT: And I loved the subtle reference to YMCA.

This, it's so odd how I trample someone on my horse, but because they did a spin-around I get 1-shot killed on my horse from full health while they are underneath my horse's hooves. Or if I am blocking, then my horse dies and they just finish me off with one simple thrust while I am laying on the ground. Pike needs to be re-designed to eliminate huge damage from range that is way too close to even hit at all.

[panderson]

Jesus a lot of BS replies here.

Actually, I think your post was BS, but lets not mince words.   

Cav has been balanced already due to upkeep.  The lighter horses that are now prevalent are pretty easy to kill.  It doesn't even take a pike.  Archers/throwers can easily take them down.   

The lighter horse coupled with the tighter maps on NA and lots of throwers means my horse dies often.  I actually have been getting most of my kills on the ground rather than on my cav.

[Thomek]

Actually, I think your post was BS, but lets not mince words.   

Cav has been balanced already due to upkeep.  The lighter horses that are now prevalent are pretty easy to kill.  It doesn't even take a pike.  Archers/throwers can easily take them down.   

The lighter horse coupled with the tighter maps on NA and lots of throwers means my horse dies often.  I actually have been getting most of my kills on the ground rather than on my cav.

(Didn't say ALL the posts were BS, but the majority were)

If the power stays the same, the upkeep stays the same..

The idea is to buff them in HP so they can take more hits from ranged, but lessen their maneuverability accordingly.

The situation now is absurd:

Throwing, xbows and Archers are the Anti-horseman medicine. Pikes are near useless against good horsemen, because they simply avoid them like the plague, and know exactly how to avoid them. Protecting your teammates with a pike is useless if the teammate stands 1.5m away. The horseman will simply swing to the side and do a side thrust. Sure I catch cav with my pike. Blind, lazy, stupid, noobcav that was never any danger to the team anyway.

I can't believe that cav players actually WANT it to stay like this. They play exactly like we ninjas do! Lurking around, looking for an easy kill or unaware/busy opponent, run away, kite and repeat. In my idea I'm simply trying to make the charge more powerful and survivable for the cav-players. (In the no-pike situations)

So that they don't have to play like backstabbing Ninjas anymore. (It looks retarded how they run away, sitting on that big horse and all :-)

In all, I think such changes would lessen the "feeling of randomness" in cRPG. If I die, I want it to be because I did a mistake. Not because some cav suddenly turned the corner with his lance ready to strike. Even the very best, most aware players get caught by passing cav that happened to be fishing around.

[Gorath]

Other balance idea:

If possible increase the thrust damage of spears/pikes.  This will let them do their job better of killing horses/riders.  *If possible increase the benefit they get from speed when it comes to damage rather than a sweeping buff to their overall damage in order to keep from potential melee combat OP'ness*

OR

Make it so that when a horse comes to a sudden stop (Pike, driving into a wall/tree/etc) the rider is thrown and takes fall damage equivalent to the speed they were going at when stopped.

And then leave the rest of the horse stats as they are now so Cav can continue to be a threat on the field and have fun circling on a dime bumpslashing/poking at people.

(Yup, I have riding and use the sarranid horse so it's not an infantry hate on cav thing)

[UrLukur]

Other balance idea:

If possible increase the thrust damage of spears/pikes.  This will let them do their job better of killing horses/riders.  *If possible increase the benefit they get from speed when it comes to damage rather than a sweeping buff to their overall damage in order to keep from potential melee combat OP'ness*

OR

Make it so that when a horse comes to a sudden stop (Pike, driving into a wall/tree/etc) the rider is thrown and takes fall damage equivalent to the speed they were going at when stopped.

And then leave the rest of the horse stats as they are now so Cav can continue to be a threat on the field and have fun circling on a dime bumpslashing/poking at people.

(Yup, I have riding and use the sarranid horse so it's not an infantry hate on cav thing)

or decrease damage of lances, so they don't  1hitkill people ?

[Thomek]

on my rider with 0 powerstrike and a light lance, i frequently 1 hit people when it's couched. I got 3 riding and a steppe horse.. And people freak out about a backstab-dagger... 

[Siiem]

or decrease damage of lances, so they don't  1hitkill people ?

Lance beeing shoved into your body from something running at 40 km/h is porbably something balanced to 1 hit kill most things.

[Thomek]

I don't think a 25cm blade being showed into your armpit, or through the vizier into your brain hurts much less Siiem.

Anyway back on topic, it's not about realism, but making cav somehow resemble cav, while keeping stuff balanced.

[UrLukur]

Lance beeing shoved into your body from something running at 40 km/h is porbably something balanced to 1 hit kill most things.

Not really. Even couched lance was not that effective.

[panderson]

I can't believe that cav players actually WANT it to stay like this. They play exactly like we ninjas do! Lurking around, looking for an easy kill or unaware/busy opponent, run away, kite and repeat. In my idea I'm simply trying to make the charge more powerful and survivable for the cav-players. (In the no-pike situations)

.

There are very few no-pike situations now-a-days.  Especially with the recent bout of new hilly or city maps, cav have a hard time.  If we aren't able to maneuver like we used to, we will just run right into a pike or lance. 

I honestly don't see what your issue is.  You seem to dislike cav because they are OMGoverpowered, but you claim that your changes will actually be a buff.

Edit:  Team bumping is another reason not to stop cav's maneuvering.  We need some precision to be able to go around our teammates and help hit the enemy.  It is hard enough as it is.

[TommyHu]

on my rider with 0 powerstrike and a light lance, i frequently 1 hit people when it's couched.

Only frequently? it should 1 hit people like 99%. The only reason it wouldn't is if you were riding slow and couched the enemy from behind as he runs with the hit, lessening the speed bonus.

From what I'm reading it sounds like you want cav to line up together and charge the enemy en mass, in line formation....I won't be getting in that line until cav gets 1 hit trample kills/incaps

[bruce]

Less maneuver (meaning much less, even for sarranid/steppe/desert line of horses) but with more HP and charge would be an interesting experiment. But even more HP would more or less do squat, given with speed bonus a throwing something with high PT is a one-shot kill.

Not really. Even couched lance was not that effective.