What would you suggest a 2H do against someone that's turtled up? We can use an axe to break the shield, or go with a heavy blunt to crush through. Crush through is quicker and more efficient. If it weren't crush through, the complaint would be Axes and their shield breaking. If not that, it would be 2H spam in an attempt to break the shield.
I could get behind a slight decrease in the % chance to crush through. At the same time, with 7 PS, it's hard for me to crush someone with high shield skill. That's the trade off. Any schmuck that puts 0-2 points in shield and picks up an arena shield should get crushed. If you've got 5+ and a steel shield, you should be a lot safer.
I am a polearm user (I fight without a shield). I cannot even block Barmace because I get crushed more often than not. If I take my shield I get crushed easily. What am I supposed to do, backpedal? Look for my parole officer and never go anywhere without 3 other teammates with Pikes behind me?
Pretty soon cRPG is going to be nerfed to staffs, rocks, and the peasant knife if this crying keeps up. After the crush through weapons its going to be X, then X, then X, then X, then X, then X
I would like everything but the weapon I use to be nerfed to doing zero damage.
Is that alirght, doctor?
All the fast blockcrushing weapons are a problem. Mauls, long mauls and such are slow for a reason.
Barmaces, etc are basically normal weapons which can maintain block-attack-block rythm except they block crush with enough heirlooming / powerstrike.
Just dodge and keep them out of range.
Just dodge and keep them out of range.
This only works if you're going to avoid trying to kill the guy, ever. The problem with crush through mechanics is that it removes your RMB. No weapon/item/ability should ever remove your RMB, or LMB, or w key etc.
Now if you're talking about actually trying to kill the guy you realize with a crush build all you have to do is make a single successful manual block, then overhead. You might get hit by a 2nd spam attack if you use the great maul (maybe, still most people don't have enough agi/wpf to actually pull that off) but with faster weapons, no. Also you can spin your mouse to track the guy you're overhanding faster than he can circle strafe around you.
Know why the morning star got nerfed? Remember Fedor back in the day? Block once, overhand, repeat on next victim. Yeah, he's a skilled player, but putting a weapon that removes your opponents RMB in the hands of a skilled player just makes it stupid.
The issue is the heirloomed Bar Mace (Heavy Bar Mace) with its extra weight and damage. Thats the crush through monster. The regular Bar Mace isnt too horrible.
And it is OP to the extreme. Secondary mode looks nice otherwise nerf it down to Morningstar level
just felt like adding this... I have 8 shield skill and a huscarls. i think it was braeden? with his maul was able to crush through me 100% of the time with 6 powerstrike. a barmace user with 8 powerstrike seems to crush through about 60%. with 9 ps about 90%. I hate crush through, but i can understand why it exists... my shield is beastly, and everything has a counter... the problem is... crushthrough works on non-shielders just as well... and it seems a little too reliable in general. i think its fair that if you have more powerstrike than i have shield... that you should land that hit.
For balance if they remove crush through, they should also remove shields.
So,
as a time from time barmace user mainly using swords i will try to be as ontopic and clear as possible. After the patch the popularity of Bar Mace going sky high is somehow alerting. But i also see much more swordboarders these days. What should lets say 2h swordsman do to counter the shield? Yeah, i can hit it few times to break and if lucky and not being shot/stabbed in the process, i might get kill. But trying to deshield a shield spec char without axe/hammer, is almost impossible (in the battle environment anw, as you have to usually watch more stuff happening around)
I see that shielders feel frustrated, but come one, being hit overhead with a huge ball of iron on a stick should leave some damage, and if it goes thru the shield you should get hit quite a lot (as it had the power to crush shield).
The problem is, when you would start "balancing" crushtrough, there would arise new wave of whine about something different, crushtrough is there for a reason, and when not in crowded places, it IS actually quite easy to counter. With crushtrough the manual blocks, i had either bad luck (while i was playing yesterday i crushed almost all shields after 2nd or 3rd hit tops, but on manual blocks i didnt go throug ONE!) or i am missing something on the weapon weight effect on blocking and stuff.
Anyways, leave it as it is, it will just take some time for people to adapt to new favourite weapon and then it will be fine again.
The thing is, one pro crushtrough there was, realism, which you do not find okay enough.
The point with argumenting about chain-nerfing is perfectly valid, as i saw people whining on forums about pretty much everything and some of the stuff already "got fixed". There are always going to be people that are using some specific tool, which might seem utterly overpowered for others, but again, there should be counter for pretty much anything.
For a) yeah, i can try that, if i am lucky and not hit by other enemy/arrow/teammate
I am not justifying it just cause it can onehit people, as i stated in my first post, i am terribly unlucky of going thru manual blocks (not that bad with shields) and except few lucky hits i usually have to hit a guy twice or three times in order to kill him(some mail armored). I just think there should be the option to smash someones head thru shield with a big iron stuff.
I actually remember times, when i was dodging xbowers like hell, cause they could oneshot my tincan, now in mail i can take two or three hits before i die, i would not like to see this happen with crushtrough. Like everything in this game, this can be countered.
If i went thru ANY block/shield on ALMOST every hit, i would agree with nerfing the chance, but as i am seeing quite often that the crushtrough is just not happening i would not say tuning is required.
yeah... just gonna say again... guys with 6 powerstrike can consistently crush through my 8 skill huscarls.
oh and there should always be certain opponents who you dont want to meet 1 v 1 because their build gives them an edge on you. i have 2 opponents so far who i will avoid fighting 1v1 if possible. you have to recognize your own weaknesses, no character is able to beat everyone 100% of the time, theres always builds/playstyles that will cause you more trouble than others. oh and all the whining about shields... i have 12 strength and 24 agility, i have 8 shield 8 weapon master 8 athletics 4 powerstrike and 1 ironflesh. if i were a 2h build, i would have 8 more points to spend... so i could convert 6 and have 27 agil 9 wm and 9 athletics, or i could have 15 str and 2 ironflesh and 5 powerstrike. the price i paid for my shield is pretty hefty... if i did a 2h or pole build i would be one scary person in 1v1 situations, but i couldnt break through enemy lines and be a super annoying distraction without my shield... thats why i have it... oh and to block ranged stuff.
But if they have over 8 PS they by god should be able to crush through.
The thing is, one pro crushtrough there was, realism, which you do not find okay enough.
Nope.
Not consistently. Hard counter requires serious drawback.
What you're basically saying is that people can go 8PS and PT8 for lolthrow and lolcrush, and that's ok because they put their stats into it?
Everyone puts their stats into something.
No amount of stats should give you I-Win button.
That's my point.
how do you fail with 10 ps?? i think linden has 9 or 10 ps and he has a 100% crushthrough against me with his bar mace. i even tried buying a metal shield to see if it helped (it didnt).
I believe people wont like being hit by iron staff either, would they, i mean, cmon, it can knock u down also! It might not have crushtrough, but when you want to remove it or nerf it, i foresee the next on the list being the knockback :)
3) It doesn't take my shield skill into account. I have 7 shield skill. Not 2, not 3 like guys that just put enough in there to pick one up as they advance with their 2her, but a significant investment into the skill. Coming up against a crush through user is like someone saying "Yeah, those 3 extra stat points you could have had, they were wasted."
Tai Feng is such a troll, i finished university before he finished elementary school, i'm pretty sure of that.
Nice try, but you started it i was just trolling you back. Or will you selectively ignore your provocation and try to say that i just said that to prove something ? Nice elementary school you did.
If it's not one thing, it's another... :rolleyes:Really? you think it is unfair to have to take a few hits to break theough a shield and need a "quicker" route. Ok, then 1 handers should instantly kill any 2 hander they hit. Because it is "quicker" than hitting them 4 or 5 times. Do you really think that the whole game revolves around you? Why do you need to be able to kill everyone quickly? Can't earn your kills?
Let's just get this out of the way, I'm a Bar Mace user. Have been since well before the current patch/state of things.
What would you suggest a 2H do against someone that's turtled up? We can use an axe to break the shield, or go with a heavy blunt to crush through. Crush through is quicker and more efficient. If it weren't crush through, the complaint would be Axes and their shield breaking. If not that, it would be 2H spam in an attempt to break the shield.
I could get behind a slight decrease in the % chance to crush through. At the same time, with 7 PS, it's hard for me to crush someone with high shield skill. That's the trade off. Any schmuck that puts 0-2 points in shield and picks up an arena shield should get crushed. If you've got 5+ and a steel shield, you should be a lot safer.
Ok, then 1 handers should instantly kill any 2 hander they hit. Because it is "quicker" than hitting them 4 or 5 times.
Quote from: Topsnus on Today at 02:13:42 am
Ok, then 1 handers should instantly kill any 2 hander they hit. Because it is "quicker" than hitting them 4 or 5 times.
Agreed, implement nao please.
well, to be honest if i am too kill hungry and i go after turtle, one smack with his weapon in my face and i am dead, even tho i wear quite heavy helmet, what more would you want?
Dodge his first overhead, step in with quick feints combined with spam and most barmace users will fall like wheat to a scythe. If you're up against a good player and your weapon can be crushed through, then it's time to start running for your teammates.
This is where most plans already fail.
The issues I have with crush through are:
1) It punishes manual blockers as well. It in effect removes your RMB from the game. If you don't see how removing someone's RMB is stupid then I dunno what to say.
2) It crushes through chamber blocks. If I chamber your overhead, I worked harder than you did and deserve my parry + hit. Not to just get crushed anyways. It's dumb.
3) It doesn't take my shield skill into account. I have 7 shield skill. Not 2, not 3 like guys that just put enough in there to pick one up as they advance with their 2her, but a significant investment into the skill. Coming up against a crush through user is like someone saying "Yeah, those 3 extra stat points you could have had, they were wasted."
See Allers for example (not bashing Allers, just using him as an illustrative example of a good crushthrough user): He'll charge his overhead and come at you. You'll reflexively try a preemptive strike, most likely a thrust, which he'll manual down block and then crush you anyway, through your block, through your chamber, chasing your side-step dodge. And since he has upwards of 36 strength, it's a one-hit kill 99% of the time.
The thing is, crush trough weapons require really high Strength(powerstrike) to even have a good chance of crushing. Full strength users are really slow. Plus these weapons have very low range.
So what do you do? Outmanouvre him, use your weapon's range, only block when hes not doing an overhead strike.
If hes using a maul, just outspam him.
Spam him, with 36 str there's no way you can't spam him down when he goes for the overhead. Unless he's using a barmace, then you're basically screwed if you don't have a big weapon that he can't block crush through. Although with 36 str I wonder if even that will be enough.
I find that crushthrough vs 2h and polearm parries is fair game as it makes sense. I would like to see sword and boards gain some kind of resistance to it through increased points in shield. Heavier shields would also accomplish the same thing. It is my understanding that weight vs weight has a lot to do with it. So maybe increase shield weights to like 8 for huscarls making it a solid block against blunt
Oh yeah absolutely never should crushthrough break chambers... thats the end all of mechanic trumping skill which just sucks
I find that crushthrough vs 2h and polearm parries is fair game as it makes sense. I would like to see sword and boards gain some kind of resistance to it through increased points in shield. Heavier shields would also accomplish the same thing. It is my understanding that weight vs weight has a lot to do with it. So maybe increase shield weights to like 8 for huscarls making it a solid block against blunt
Crushthrough is one of the worst mechanics in c-rpg. It should be removed, says me.
Btw I played with the OP yesterday he's a throwing polearm spammer go figure lol(basically most OP build atm)
've done that build and it needs a nerf more than bar mace honestly
And if your so "invested" in this thread to nerf other classes but see the novel u wrote when I exposed your build
Classic douchebag tai
Your feeble mental abilities can't grasp that this isn't about bar mace. It's about broken mechanic. Throwing, you can increase or decrease damage, increase or decrease stacks, etc etc - but crush through is *broken mechanic*. It's somewhat OK with really slow weapons (and even then..) but definitely not ok with fast and medium speed weapons.
:) You're seriously deranged. Everyone knows what I play, I even mention it on the forum. What are you, one of those lunatics who "exposed" american government and claim america bombed themselves on 911? Yea, you sound like that.(click to show/hide)
Even if gov didn't bombed themselves, they gained much power thanks to it. So it's irrelevant who bombed it.
I know u have 0 wpf throwing u only need powerstrike to kill (you should have horrible accuracy in that build but u don't, I know because I ran it for three generations )
I've done that build and it needs a nerf more than bar mace honestly
The fact u tried to act intelligent proves your just another weapon lobbyist, I mean use the great ranged great long bardiche plus seven skill points to have an awesome pierce attack that requires no wpf
And if your so "invested" in this thread to nerf other classes but see the novel u wrote when I exposed your build
Classic douchebag tai
I love these ironic comments. I would like to ridicule others and spam the forum
Which part of that did you not fucking understand? I am troll intellectual
This isn't about bar mace. It's about broken mechanic. Throwing, you can increase or decrease damage, increase or decrease stacks, etc etc - but crush through is *broken mechanic*. It's somewhat OK with really slow weapons (and even then..) but definitely not ok with fast and medium speed weapons.
:) You're seriously deranged. Everyone knows what I play, I even mention it on the forum. What are you, one of those lunatics who "exposed" american government and claim america bombed themselves on 911? Yea, you sound like that.
I play what I want to play - that's that. Just because I play something doesn't mean it's entirely balanced. If you werent such an idiot, you would know that I mostly played as a peasant with a fork, which does not mean it's "balanced" by any means, and it's certainly not overpowered.
Serves me right for entering debates with kids who grew up on the street.
there fixed it for you
I use board shield and have 5 shield skill and never get crush through?
That's like saying it's irrelevant if you end up in a hospital because you fell off the balcony, or if someone beat you. No, it's not irrelevant.No, for practical reasons its irrelevant. Government gained power over people in us, signed patriot act and is on a good way to disarm people.
You're also implying that there's something wrong with government having power. I'd say there's something wrong with people having power to elect. It's urban myth today that people are all great but governments are horrible. Well, that's not the case. Politicians are usually above average specimen of society.
(we're going offtopic..)
Considering I could crushthrough pretty much everything with 18 str and great maul, I find that unlikely!
we're talking about the bar mace xant, lolmauls crush all if they hit(9 weight, 45 damage compared to bar mace weight and damage way lower)
Btw if he was one of these so called "lobbyists" he would be calling for a buff for his class or a nerf to almost every other class, this is the only thread I see where hes actively calling on something to be nerfed.
wow how is arguing with you make me anti-government
Considering I could crushthrough pretty much everything with 18 str and great maul, I find that unlikely!
Government gained power over people in us
If in 10.000 batles one single crushthrough would occur, it would be lame.
I'm not against crush through as a feature. I also liked shield penetration feature.
This isn't about bar mace. It's about broken mechanic. Throwing, you can increase or decrease damage, increase or decrease stacks, etc etc - but crush through is *broken mechanic*. It's somewhat OK with really slow weapons (and even then..) but definitely not ok with fast and medium speed weapons.
I've done extensive crush-through testing on a character with 12 powerstrike, and 105 proficiency in two-handers. The defender was a shielder with 5 shield skill.
These are the results:
1. The ONLY two-handed weapon that reliably crushes through a huscarl shield when the shielder has 5 shield skill is the great maul. All other crush-through weapons, including the old version of the morningstar, require great precision, timing, and a speed bonus in order to crush through with ANY degree of reliability.
2. Polearms(and possibly two-handers, not sure though) get a bonus against being crushed through that is a multiplier of their weight. So a heavier polearm will more reliably block crush-throughs than a shield of equal weight. I have seen a 3 weight polearm block an overhead from a 12 powerstrike great maul.
Knowing is half the battle. Hopefully those who think crush-through is unbalanced will be better informed now, and be able to cope with it through their own item builds. And before people ask, I no longer use a crush-through weapon. I stopped when they changed the morningstar, and turned my triple-heirloomed morningstar in for a triple-heirloomed great sword.
ADHD Version: I have tested crush-through thoroughly. Crush-through is not imbalanced. I do not currently use a crush-through weapon.
That's why it's called the government :)
It does take into account the shield.
And Joker - I'm not sure where is contradiction in my posts. Crush Through worked in Native just fine. In cRPG, anything else than those slow short weapons just calls for abuse.
And Joker - I'm not sure where is contradiction in my posts. Crush Through worked in Native just fine. In cRPG, anything else than those slow short weapons just calls for abuse.
I've done extensive crush-through testing on a character with 12 powerstrike, and 105 proficiency in two-handers. The defender was a shielder with 5 shield skill.
These are the results:
1. The ONLY two-handed weapon that reliably crushes through a huscarl shield when the shielder has 5 shield skill is the great maul. All other crush-through weapons, including the old version of the morningstar, require great precision, timing, and a speed bonus in order to crush through with ANY degree of reliability.
2. Polearms(and possibly two-handers, not sure though) get a bonus against being crushed through that is a multiplier of their weight. So a heavier polearm will more reliably block crush-throughs than a shield of equal weight. I have seen a 3 weight polearm block an overhead from a 12 powerstrike great maul.
Knowing is half the battle. Hopefully those who think crush-through is unbalanced will be better informed now, and be able to cope with it through their own item builds. And before people ask, I no longer use a crush-through weapon. I stopped when they changed the morningstar, and turned my triple-heirloomed morningstar in for a triple-heirloomed great sword.
ADHD Version: I have tested crush-through thoroughly. Crush-through is not imbalanced. I do not currently use a crush-through weapon.
well heres the thing Heroin... with my 8 shield skill huscarls... a mighty bar mace will crush through at least 90% if they have 9 or more PS... i can live with that since so few people have triple heirloomed barmaces and almost pure str builds.
the problem is the great maul you mentioned. you said you had 12 PS and reliably broke through. the problem is that characters with 5 PS have 95% cruchthrough against 8 shield skill huscarls. Im no fan of the long maul, but the only thing that really needs fixing, is the great maul. the problem right now is that the only way to fight against crushthrough is to out spam, or out manuevre. good luck out manuevering a guy with 7 athletics and a great maul.
Great maul is a high-risk, high-reward weapon, and the only real counter to a huscarl shield. If you upgrade to a steel shield, you will be crushed-through less often, and your shield won't break as easily either. It IS a little smaller, so you may end up getting plinked by the occasional arrow. But those are the sacrifices we make, man.
No one gets to have it all. Everyone will have a counter.
Great maul is a high-risk, high-reward weapon, and the only real counter to a huscarl shield. If you upgrade to a steel shield, you will be crushed-through less often, and your shield won't break as easily either. It IS a little smaller, so you may end up getting plinked by the occasional arrow. But those are the sacrifices we make, man.
No one gets to have it all. Everyone will have a counter.
I'm sick of hearing this line, only counter to shields. Having good foot work is best counter to any shielder you'll ever need. Knowing your weapons reach and when to attack will kill ANY shielder. Crushtrough weapons are stupid, nothing more than that. Same goes for couched lance, anything that can't be blocked give the power to those who aren't very good at attacking and blocking and that shouldn't be the case.
i havent tested the steel shield too much, but from bits of testing... i got crushed through worse and for more damage.
Axes and nothing else are supposed to be a counter to shields, if shields need a counter at all.
(P.S. The polearm blocking being multiplied x3 is confirmed. Unconfirmed on the 2h blocking.)
Not really, no.
Polearms and 2h get their base blocking factor (weight * 0.2 + 5.0) multiplied by 1.2 .
This is obviously false, since crush through is in the game.
As an opinion, it is faulty. Axes have bonus vs shield, yes. But they are also unbalanced and fairly slow. Since no axe is going to one-shot a huscarl shield wielded by a competent shielder, you will find yourself being spammed by the likes of balbaroth, matey, and his ilk before you EVER break their shields.
Furthermore, you get a bonus to weapon weight against crush through for polearms and two-handers(their weight is multiplied x3 for calculating whether or not they block crush through). So if you dislike crush through that much, choose a heavy weapon. A weapon with 4 weight will be pretty effective at blocking crush through.
Ahhhh! Damn! And all the time I was thinking that plated chargers and shit were OP, but they weren't, as they were in the game! :shock:
i'm not against crushthrough (even for weapons like morningstar or barmace), but this should be available only for specialized full str builds like daymun or robin hoods have. they sacrifice a lot in agility, no shield etc... so they can get this crushthrough bonus even for these weapons.
crushthrough for great maul or that long maul (or whatever its called) is ok, anybody can fight back against these slow weapons.
You stated, "Axes and nothing else are supposed to be a counter to shields", as if you were the lone authority on how the game is supposed to be. I pointed out that this is, in fact, incorrect. You have nothing to do with the making or balancing of the game, so saying what is or is not supposed to be a counter to shields is not your job.
Had you stated it as an opinion, I would not have replied as I did, but you stated it as fact.
i'm not against crushthrough (even for weapons like morningstar or barmace), but this should be available only for specialized full str builds like daymun or robin hoods have. they sacrifice a lot in agility, no shield etc... so they can get this crushthrough bonus even for these weapons.
But the fact that you can push your stats in cRPG brings a high risk of such weapons becoming OP, as players can skill to minimize the negative effects, to benefit of the superior positive effects.
To make things balanced, and to let those weapons work as intended, I would recommend to make no CT weapon under difficulty 21.
Having a high strength requirement wont hinder pure strength builds that use barmace for example.
There needs to be some sort of hard cap on chance to crush through an enemies block.
Maybe something like shield armour stat (22 Armour = 22% can not be crush through cap)
For weapons make it the damage stat (35 Damage = 35% can not be crush through cap)
That would add a dynamic element to want to use slashing type weapons for manual blockers, and give a reasonable chance to not be killed after every overhand swing.
These weapons would also maintain their specific edge against shield users.
My point is exactly that pure strength builds with barmace are not OP at all because they're slow as fuck. They cannot block then reply to an attack, a balanced character can attack before the response, because they're that slow (try it out).
I did try it out on the duel server when we had this debate in voip. You absolutely can counterattack with a barmace every time as a str build. M&B combat mechanics combined with the speed of the weapon make this so.
Maul spd rtng 86 length 70
Mallet spd rtng 84 length 71
Great Maul spd rtng 80 length 68
Bar Mace spd rtng 92 length 96
Sword speed with sword length. Yeah, something is pretty fuxord here.
Of course crush through is a gay mechanic anyways for 2 main reasons:
1) It crushes through chamber blocks (and manual blocks) even though it's supposed to be an "anti-shield/turtle" option. Yeah, uh huh.
2) It's a mechanic based around the idea of removing a players RMB. Mechanics like that in a pvp game are moronic. If we're going that route I want a weapon that removes your wasd keys.
Just remove crush through form barmace and iron mace and leave the short weapons able to crush.
but Gorath did some weird test were a 3 agi character was not outspammed by a 27 or 30 agi one. I call bs on that :PActually the exact character build using a masterworked barmace (picked up from wallace) was:
Gorath lies I was other side of the argument and yes the non unbalanced 92 speed 120 length weapons will outspam a high str bar macer because of fancy footwork= your out of range during the opponents turni hope you mean blocking with a shield cause if someone can Manuel block , he deserves to win
The problem in a siege short weapons are great because of close quarters and being funneled into castle from (usually) one maybe two directions
The bar mace will probably be nerfed to oblivion but honestly blocking constantly shouldn't be an always win
92 speed is almost ten less than the best sickles/war hammers/sideswords spamitars and it is shorter and unbalanced compared to equivalent other top tier twohand or polearms
I am not on any alarm lists so I must be average and I can counter all crushthrough weapons with any class
It fulfills a role rmb should not equal untouchable u can just as easily make a high agility 5 shield skill with a heavy board shield(11 lbs) and never be crushed by a 4.5 lb mace
Everyone wants to use light shields and light fast weapons and complain that the incredible bulk crushed their wimp block when they should have stabbed and pedaled
Fix this and the fact the polearm+shield looses against an HA, then cRPG will become 57,9% more enjoyable for everyone in average.
honestly blocking constantly shouldn't be an always winI still think you're trolling just like when you said this over VOIP. The illogical nature of this statement is just mind boggling. Blocking constantly should absolutely be an always win if the opponent fails at it. He who blocks better is better. That's how it works. It means he's reading feints, footwork, range and is still capable of making the correct judgement and movement in that moment. I mean going by your statement I want a weapon that disarms people when I block with it. After all, attacking shouldn't be an always win.
lol Kronic you never fought me in the duel server we simply yelled arguments back and forth through TS while I was dueling people. The barmace can't just be outspammed. You can't bring up the 92 speed, unbalanced as some kind of proof of this because hell my mancleaver is 92 speed and unbalanced without crush through and I can't just be outspammed except MAYBE by some highly unlikely gimmick build designed specifically to do just that.
As for I still think you're trolling just like when you said this over VOIP. The illogical nature of this statement is just mind boggling. Blocking constantly should absolutely be an always win if the opponent fails at it. He who blocks better is better. That's how it works. It means he's reading feints, footwork, range and is still capable of making the correct judgement and movement in that moment. I mean going by your statement I want a weapon that disarms people when I block with it. After all, attacking shouldn't be an always win.
Can you manually block an arrow ?
No, but you can chamber it. :mrgreen:
*Ranged doesn't count in these discussions obviously :P*
In case he was talking about shield blocking, he was making sense. Feint and range are irrelevant when blocking with a shield, and movement, well.... duh.... face your opponent :idea:
As for [...] I still think you're trolling just like when you said this over VOIP. The illogical nature of this statement is just mind boggling. Blocking constantly should absolutely be an always win if the opponent fails at it. He who blocks better is better. That's how it works. It means he's reading feints, footwork, range and is still capable of making the correct judgement and movement in that moment. I mean going by your statement I want a weapon that disarms people when I block with it. After all, attacking shouldn't be an always win.
Blocking constantly should absolutely be an always win if the opponent fails at it.No.Block is a smal part of complicated combat system,fighting against crushthrough means using more distance and timing,or having heavy shield and high strength.Player can be not very skilled blocker,but he can be good in moving for example.Thats the main problem most of crpg players,they think that if they are good manual blockers they are skilled,but the real skill is to do something good except blocking,because blocking isnt hard,two days of training and you will be the best blocker in the world :rolleyes:.And when players cant kill oponent by simple blocking/feinting,they are coming to forums and,instead of trying understand the mechanics, whine about OP swords,mauls,polearms...BUT I agree,barmace with 30 strenght is fast,crushthrough weapon shoudnt have such high speed.
No.Block is a smal part of complicated combat system,fighting against crushthrough means using more distance and timing,or having heavy shield and high strength.Player can be not very skilled blocker,but he can be good in moving for example.Thats the main problem most of crpg players,they think that if they are good manual blockers they are skilled,but the real skill is to do something good except blocking,because blocking isnt hard,two days of training and you will be the best blocker in the world :rolleyes:.And when players cant kill oponent by simple blocking/feinting,they are coming to forums and,instead of trying understand the mechanics, whine about OP swords,mauls,polearms...
Well sure a masterwork anything wins be it a lawlpike a lolarm a lolsword or whatever
Can you people note difference between
- heirloomed barmace
- regular barmace
Every so often:
A: Heirloomed barmace crushes through always.
B: No, I have a (regular) barmace and I dont crushthrough often.
A: *facepalm*
What crushthrough lover seem not to understand is that the problem isn't about heirloomed or weight. It's the idea of crushthrough weapons that fail from the very beginning.Again,barmace problem,not crushrough.See the difference.
Make any crushthrough weapon unable or extremely slow to block, then ok they will be both balanced and more realistic (obviously you can't block as fast with a bar mace and a sword).
They should be slow, but they really aren't compared to the extreme advantage they have over any normal weapon. Why do I think they are OP ? Just open your eyes : everybody and their grandmother uses a barmace since the latest "patch".
Gorath likes to use weapons that are not best in class
even with that said u purposely don't use those lol it does make a difference^
(along with the 3x damage piercing weapons get to the head, which happens to be where you hit when you crush)
I just tested this several times on the duel server with a pierce weapon and a blunt weapon. They both did equal damage to the head with 6 power strike. I used low damage peasant weapons to ensure the test subject didn't get one-shotted.
I performed the test about 20 times to ensure it was not a fluke. Results were duplicated in 19 of the test shots. The other 1 shot did significantly less damage. Presumably, I missed the head on that 1 and registered a shoulder hit.
Moral of this story: Pierce doing more to the head than other damage types = myth. All damage types to the head are increased, but it's not 3x.
I always thought it was just a straight x2, regards of damage type. Just like legs are /2.
I'd be interested more in seeing the actual code from whatever file the damage calculations are in when it comes to the game. Those will be concrete proof. In your testing, was the opponent wearing armor? What were the damage values involved? Did you account for the difference in damage types against the armor rating, etc.
If someone knows which file the damage values are listed that would be most helpful.
I'd be interested more in seeing the actual code from whatever file the damage calculations are in when it comes to the game. Those will be concrete proof. In your testing, was the opponent wearing armor? What were the damage values involved? Did you account for the difference in damage types against the armor rating, etc.
If someone knows which file the damage values are listed that would be most helpful.
long maul should be heavier
nerf shields
If you need crush through to beat a shielder it's a matter of being a baddie crutcher.
You can't nerf the counter to shields and leave them unchanged, that's just asking for more imbalance.The counter to shields are axes - bonus vs shields = counter.
a balanced build with a great maul or long maul will still crush through against most people ATM. what the hell are you on about.
I use a boulder (long maul) and have done for a long time, i've gotten sued to its greatly decreased speed and the newer, thinner model however the weight reduction has made it much less effective against sheilders.
you seem to contradict yourself Ganon as you imply that only strength builds should be able to use crush through while complaining that people using mauls shouldn't have to move slowly.
In my opinion the slow speed to the mauls means they are almost impossible to spam, increasing their weight will make them less spammible but more effective at what they are designed to do.
Having used a long maul with both a pure strength build and a balanced build i feel i know what i am talking about and frankly you don't move THAT slowly using once, people will move faster than you and will be able to out maneuver you but thats is the balancing factor. To have the ability to nullify someones ability to block you should have the pay a large price.
@ gorath, it doesn't remove they RMB entirely, only for over heads. You'll find plenty of people die to side swings from bar maces and iron maces because they simply dont expect them. Frankly i think making these weapons MUCH slower is the best way of balancing them. Also the most amusing thing is to kill someone with a thrust from a long maul.
The counter to shields are axes - bonus vs shields = counter.
Removing a players RMB entirely = crutch mechanic.
Please learn the game before posting such shit.
Shields don't need a counter, imho.
It will take 50-100 hits to destroy a loomed steel shield