Why is everything getting balanced except Crush Through?

[Noble Crassius]

It does take into account the shield.


And Joker - I'm not sure where is contradiction in my posts. Crush Through worked in Native just fine. In cRPG, anything else than those slow short weapons just calls for abuse.

You didn't take the time to read my post all the way  or phrased the answer wrong. I'm askign about shield skill, not the shield itself. Ive read on another thread it doesn't.

[Joker86]

And Joker - I'm not sure where is contradiction in my posts. Crush Through worked in Native just fine. In cRPG, anything else than those slow short weapons just calls for abuse.

I just got confused, because you said the game mechanics were broken. Which sounds to me like a general concept fail. As counter example you mentioned throwing weapons, where you could tweak speed, damage, bag size and so on.

But then you say blockcrushing weapons would be fine if they are slow enough, which is a tweaked attribute like with the throwing weapons.

This is where I get confused. You say blockcrush is something different than overpowered throwing weapons, but then you suggest the same solution for both. 

[EponiCo]

No, having the crushthrough weapons really slow does change more gameplay wise, than just changed stats.
If I see a hammer, I know that I can outspam him and I also have some time to do so.
While theoretically the overhead of the barmace might be spamable in all cases where it crushes, I certainly can't hesitate, so I'm either permaspamming or I get crushed, stunlocked and ... well game over.
But what if ...
he goes for sideswings
he uses it with more agility than me (no crushthrough then probably, but I can't find that out without being crushed and hence dead)
he stuns my block

[Tai Feng]

Yea. In native, it's not broken mechanic, but in cRPG, due to nature of character building, the entire concept might be broken. However, I really like maul-weapons and wouldn't want to see them go away. They *are* fun - but in Native they were high-risk high reward weapons. In cRPG, you can put top armor, before you could put even higher wpf, and afford to miss quite a lot. So as I said, I'd like mauls to keep this feature but all else not really.

[Ganon]

It's a good thing i didn't loom the barmace. I wonder how the guys who loomed it 3x will feel now, because the crush through is being removed. There's other weapons that have it, they're slower so that should make you happy. It doesn't affect me because i didn't loom it and i was already slow enough with the barmace so i can switch to a hammer without any maior change of my playstyle. Devs, just remember to reset heirlooms

[Joker86]

Basically I think if the weapon you heirloomed gets nerfed severly (so that you want to change it really badly, not only -1 speed or so), you didn't deserve any better, you immoral my old friend ,|,,  ,,|,


(Not directed at anyone particular!)

[zagibu]

It probably can't be done, but only overhead should do crushthrough, and only after having been held for more than 2 seconds.

[Ganon]

It was already like that, but people kept whining so it got nerfed. You also needed 10 powerstrike to crush with a barmace, or a little less and a heirloomed barmace. My suggestion would be to up the requirement so the higher agi characters using loomed barmaces won't be able to to the one unbalanced thing you could previously do with it (have a relatively agile character that can block/swing overhead/block without getting spammed to death).

[Matey]

I've done extensive crush-through testing on a character with 12 powerstrike, and 105 proficiency in two-handers. The defender was a shielder with 5 shield skill.

These are the results:

1. The ONLY two-handed weapon that reliably crushes through a huscarl shield when the shielder has 5 shield skill is the great maul. All other crush-through weapons, including the old version of the morningstar, require great precision, timing, and a speed bonus in order to crush through with ANY degree of reliability.

2. Polearms(and possibly two-handers, not sure though) get a bonus against being crushed through that is a multiplier of their weight. So a heavier polearm will more reliably block crush-throughs than a shield of equal weight. I have seen a 3 weight polearm block an overhead from a 12 powerstrike great maul.

Knowing is half the battle. Hopefully those who think crush-through is unbalanced will be better informed now, and be able to cope with it through their own item builds. And before people ask, I no longer use a crush-through weapon. I stopped when they changed the morningstar, and turned my triple-heirloomed morningstar in for a triple-heirloomed great sword.

ADHD Version: I have tested crush-through thoroughly. Crush-through is not imbalanced. I do not currently use a crush-through weapon.

well heres the thing Heroin... with my 8 shield skill huscarls... a mighty bar mace will crush through at least 90% if they have 9 or more PS... i can live with that since so few people have triple heirloomed barmaces and almost pure str builds.
the problem is the great maul you mentioned. you said you had 12 PS and reliably broke through. the problem is that characters with 5 PS have 95% cruchthrough against 8 shield skill huscarls. Im no fan of the long maul, but the only thing that really needs fixing, is the great maul. the problem right now is that the only way to fight against crushthrough is to out spam, or out manuevre. good luck out manuevering a guy with 7 athletics and a great maul.

[cmp]

Shield skill does nothing. Only shield/blocking weapon weight counts.

[Heroin]

well heres the thing Heroin... with my 8 shield skill huscarls... a mighty bar mace will crush through at least 90% if they have 9 or more PS... i can live with that since so few people have triple heirloomed barmaces and almost pure str builds.
the problem is the great maul you mentioned. you said you had 12 PS and reliably broke through. the problem is that characters with 5 PS have 95% cruchthrough against 8 shield skill huscarls. Im no fan of the long maul, but the only thing that really needs fixing, is the great maul. the problem right now is that the only way to fight against crushthrough is to out spam, or out manuevre. good luck out manuevering a guy with 7 athletics and a great maul.

Great maul is a high-risk, high-reward weapon, and the only real counter to a huscarl shield. If you upgrade to a steel shield, you will be crushed-through less often, and your shield won't break as easily either. It IS a little smaller, so you may end up getting plinked by the occasional arrow. But those are the sacrifices we make, man.

No one gets to have it all. Everyone will have a counter.

[Leshma]

Great maul is a high-risk, high-reward weapon, and the only real counter to a huscarl shield. If you upgrade to a steel shield, you will be crushed-through less often, and your shield won't break as easily either. It IS a little smaller, so you may end up getting plinked by the occasional arrow. But those are the sacrifices we make, man.

No one gets to have it all. Everyone will have a counter.

I'm sick of hearing this line, only counter to shields. Having good foot work is best counter to any shielder you'll ever need. Knowing your weapons reach and when to attack will kill ANY shielder. Crushtrough weapons are stupid, nothing more than that. Same goes for couched lance, anything that can't be blocked give the power to those who aren't very good at attacking and blocking and that shouldn't be the case.

[Matey]

Great maul is a high-risk, high-reward weapon, and the only real counter to a huscarl shield. If you upgrade to a steel shield, you will be crushed-through less often, and your shield won't break as easily either. It IS a little smaller, so you may end up getting plinked by the occasional arrow. But those are the sacrifices we make, man.

No one gets to have it all. Everyone will have a counter.

i havent tested the steel shield too much, but from bits of testing... i got crushed through worse and for more damage.

[Heroin]

I'm sick of hearing this line, only counter to shields. Having good foot work is best counter to any shielder you'll ever need. Knowing your weapons reach and when to attack will kill ANY shielder. Crushtrough weapons are stupid, nothing more than that. Same goes for couched lance, anything that can't be blocked give the power to those who aren't very good at attacking and blocking and that shouldn't be the case.

None of this is true with a strength build, or even a balanced build vs a competent agi shielder. A competent shielder with decent athletics won't let you get behind him, and doesn't fall for feints. As a matter of fact, many people will attest to the fact that Matey, who I was talking to, almost never falls for feints. He is also very good at not letting you behind him. Pair that with a spammable/fast weapon held by the shielder, and your entire statement only serves to make you look like you don't know what you're talking about.

Furthermore, a heavy polearm will block an overhead from a great maul with a good amount of consistency. So this gives the benefit to the person who DOES know how to block, rather than use a shield, contrary to your above post. Additionally, when it DOES crush through, if you blocked, the damage is reduced.

A great maul is dreadfully slow, and unless you're using a super-short weapon with no athletics, you can hit them and interrupt their swing very easily. At the end of the day, all the things you said "counter" a shielder will work equally as well, or even better vs someone wielding a great maul.

i havent tested the steel shield too much, but from bits of testing... i got crushed through worse and for more damage.

No, this isn't the way it works. If you want to take less damage from crush through, or get crushed through less than with the huscarl shield, you need a shield that is heavier than the huscarl. These are your options:

1 - plate-covered round shield. 10 weight.
2 - Heavy Board shield - 11 weight.
3 - Steel Shield - 12 weight.

All of those will be more effective against crush through than the 9 weight huscarl shield.

[Joker86]

Axes and nothing else are supposed to be a counter to shields, if shields need a counter at all. Because crushthrough also "counters" everyone without shield. Axes with "bonus against shields" only make a difference when fighting shieldmen.

Remove the crushthrough feature from everything but the slowest and shortest weapons. It's is just lame. You don't need any skill for it.