Author Topic: Why is everything getting balanced except Crush Through?  (Read 16900 times)

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Offline Vexus

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Re: Why is everything getting balanced except Crush Through?
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2011, 02:48:22 pm »
+1
Would it be possible to make blunt weapons having a 2nd mode that enables crush through but reduces speed?

Offline EponiCo

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Re: Why is everything getting balanced except Crush Through?
« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2011, 02:50:24 pm »
+1
I think it would. Good idea.

Offline Ganon

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Re: Why is everything getting balanced except Crush Through?
« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2011, 03:47:36 pm »
+1
Just dodge and keep them out of range. When i see a barmace user which do you think i choose, barmace or nodachi ? I immediatly switch to nodachi. Also even with 30str/10ps i can't crush through characters having a good shield and a high shield skill. The only player i know that can crush through everything is a guy with 40str/3agi and 13ps + loomed barmace. He can do only that, very specialized character, he's supposed to good at the one thing he does. If you got crushed wearing peasant gear and a fork, well what did you expect ? The drawback on 2handed weapons is less defense.

The really annoying thing that should be nerfed are polearm spammers. It's a polearm, it's supposed to be slow with long range, not fast with long range and great damage. While we're discussing this, i'll make a proper thread whining about pole spammers.

Offline Tai Feng

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Re: Why is everything getting balanced except Crush Through?
« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2011, 04:40:10 pm »
+1
Just dodge and keep them out of range.

*roll eyes*

Yes please. I want a polearm that has 90 range and decimates everyone in that range. BUT it is perfectly ok and balanced because you just have to keep out of range.


ps: You still don't know what crush through block means, obviously, or refuse to see it.
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Offline Thomek

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Re: Why is everything getting balanced except Crush Through?
« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2011, 12:42:52 am »
+1
I agree. It is THE most OP 2h/polearm atm.

Needs a nerf, more and more ppl are making STR builds and whipping it around. It's worse than the lolhammer was back in the day, and much worse than the spiked mace ever was.

Leave crushthrough for the really slow weapons. (And make some of the longer more damaging polearms slower and/or unbalanced. Still think the mainly piercing weapons like spears could use a thrust dmg buff though. They promote teamwork a lot, and are not good dueling weapons.)
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Offline Gorath

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Re: Why is everything getting balanced except Crush Through?
« Reply #20 on: January 22, 2011, 12:51:10 am »
+1
Just dodge and keep them out of range.

This only works if you're going to avoid trying to kill the guy, ever.  The problem with crush through mechanics is that it removes your RMB.  No weapon/item/ability should ever remove your RMB, or LMB, or w key etc.

Now if you're talking about actually trying to kill the guy you realize with a crush build all you have to do is make a single successful manual block, then overhead.  You might get hit by a 2nd spam attack if you use the great maul (maybe, still most people don't have enough agi/wpf to actually pull that off) but with faster weapons, no.  Also you can spin your mouse to track the guy you're overhanding faster than he can circle strafe around you.

Know why the morning star got nerfed?  Remember Fedor back in the day?  Block once, overhand, repeat on next victim.  Yeah, he's a skilled player, but putting a weapon that removes your opponents RMB in the hands of a skilled player just makes it stupid.
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Offline UrLukur

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Re: Why is everything getting balanced except Crush Through?
« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2011, 12:53:10 am »
+1
This only works if you're going to avoid trying to kill the guy, ever.  The problem with crush through mechanics is that it removes your RMB.  No weapon/item/ability should ever remove your RMB, or LMB, or w key etc.

Now if you're talking about actually trying to kill the guy you realize with a crush build all you have to do is make a single successful manual block, then overhead.  You might get hit by a 2nd spam attack if you use the great maul (maybe, still most people don't have enough agi/wpf to actually pull that off) but with faster weapons, no.  Also you can spin your mouse to track the guy you're overhanding faster than he can circle strafe around you.

Know why the morning star got nerfed?  Remember Fedor back in the day?  Block once, overhand, repeat on next victim.  Yeah, he's a skilled player, but putting a weapon that removes your opponents RMB in the hands of a skilled player just makes it stupid.

True.
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Offline Danath

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Re: Why is everything getting balanced except Crush Through?
« Reply #22 on: January 22, 2011, 01:03:22 am »
+1
The issue is the heirloomed Bar Mace (Heavy Bar Mace) with its extra weight and damage. Thats the crush through monster. The regular Bar Mace isnt too horrible.

And it is OP to the extreme. Secondary mode looks nice otherwise nerf it down to Morningstar level

Offline UrLukur

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Re: Why is everything getting balanced except Crush Through?
« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2011, 01:07:53 am »
+1
The issue is the heirloomed Bar Mace (Heavy Bar Mace) with its extra weight and damage. Thats the crush through monster. The regular Bar Mace isnt too horrible.

And it is OP to the extreme. Secondary mode looks nice otherwise nerf it down to Morningstar level

The issue is blockcrush mechanic combined with stun after successful hit.
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Offline Matey

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Re: Why is everything getting balanced except Crush Through?
« Reply #24 on: January 22, 2011, 11:49:43 am »
+1
just felt like adding this... I have 8 shield skill and a huscarls. i think it was braeden? with his maul was able to crush through me 100% of the time with 6 powerstrike. a barmace user with 8 powerstrike seems to crush through about 60%. with 9 ps about 90%.  I hate crush through, but i can understand why it exists... my shield is beastly, and everything has a counter... the problem is... crushthrough works on non-shielders just as well... and it seems a little too reliable in general. i think its fair that if you have more powerstrike than i have shield... that you should land that hit. but if i have more shield than you have powerstrike... i deserve to block you. if its even... 50/50 maybe? seems fair enough. plus, if you have to put 27 points into strength to crush through my shield... you are going have trouble with other things, and with my 8 athletics, i can run like hell or try to spam or harass you... still seems legit... when i fight linden or wallace who are both str builds with barmaces, i have to dance all over the place, in and out of reach and throwing quick swings if i want to have a hope... and im cool with that. i dont mind having opponents whose build gives them an edge against me... if its non-shield vs chrushthrough though... can you make it so its ps vs ps? say if you have 2-3 more ps than the guy trying to parry, then you have a 50% to go through? something like that might work.

Offline Tai Feng

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Re: Why is everything getting balanced except Crush Through?
« Reply #25 on: January 22, 2011, 12:34:15 pm »
+1
just felt like adding this... I have 8 shield skill and a huscarls. i think it was braeden? with his maul was able to crush through me 100% of the time with 6 powerstrike. a barmace user with 8 powerstrike seems to crush through about 60%. with 9 ps about 90%.  I hate crush through, but i can understand why it exists... my shield is beastly, and everything has a counter... the problem is... crushthrough works on non-shielders just as well... and it seems a little too reliable in general. i think its fair that if you have more powerstrike than i have shield... that you should land that hit.

Well one would think that there's a point in having "bonus against shield" weapons, but everyone who can uses crush through instead (well, 2H).

How often do you see 2H taking axes or bardiches vs Bar Mace or Iron Mace?
How often do you see 2H taking non-stab weapons vs lolstab weapons? (except for roleplay)


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Offline Joker86

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Re: Why is everything getting balanced except Crush Through?
« Reply #26 on: January 22, 2011, 01:04:12 pm »
+1
Tai Feng is aaaaaabsolutely right.

I want to remind of the incredibly important equation of effort = effect. If this equation (or multiple of it) isn't fullfilled, classes are broken. A good example would be throwing. It's not really OP in the classical way of making too many kills, but the kills you make almost every round are pretty easy. So the effect is bigger than the effort.

Same thing with blockcrushing weapons. Yes, of course, there are a lot of countermeasures, but those work only in 1 on 1 duels, in the clusterfuck you can score a lot of really easy kills.

Shields are there to protect the owner. I think this shouldn't be removed by a weapon with most simple handling. At the beginning of this thread someone asked "How am I supposed to kill someone who turtled?", and my answer is: like everyone else is. Use your skill.

If it was me I would just remove the blockcrush feature. It's lame. Fight properly.
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline Ganon

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Re: Why is everything getting balanced except Crush Through?
« Reply #27 on: January 22, 2011, 03:35:24 pm »
+1
For balance if they remove crush through, they should also remove shields.

Offline Tai Feng

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Re: Why is everything getting balanced except Crush Through?
« Reply #28 on: January 22, 2011, 03:54:44 pm »
+1
For balance if they remove crush through, they should also remove shields.

This is the kind of mentality I was criticizing. This fellow here, this Ganon, is void of intellectual abilities but as a normal human being with finished elementary school and enough resources to buy a computer - he can make a post on the internet forum.
I don't mind 'wrong' posts, I just hate posts without intellectual substance which clearly show the poster is a) emotional b) did not put 1 minute into considering the flaws of his statement.


Crush through not only crushes shields but also manual blocks. And even if it crushed only shields, crush through should work much like blunt damage in Native - yes, you have a chance to knock down someone but that chance isn't high. If Bar Mace worked like that, no one would have a problem. But as we saw in this thread, and from my own experience, crush through happens more often than not. Of course, crush through from slow weapons such as Maul should be more consistent, since that's the entire point of using such a weapon, and it has a significant downside (in most cases).

Saying that it's OK to have a hard counter without any significant drawback is silly. In Strategy games, hard counters are weak in everything else. For example, a Pikeman in Age of Empires is very strong against cavalry but usually trash vs everything else. Skirmisher is very strong vs archers, but trash vs anything else. These are hard counters. In Warband Native, a Maul is hard counter to shields and manual blocks, but is very slow, very short, very heavy, and very restricted (to Rhodoks). Bar Mace and plenty other weapons in cRPG have medium range, medium speed, medium weight, can be used by all (need stats ofc), *and* is hard counter to manual blocks and shields. I mean, come on.

Axe-weapons are an example of soft counter to shields.
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Offline Ache

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Re: Why is everything getting balanced except Crush Through?
« Reply #29 on: January 22, 2011, 04:25:54 pm »
+1
In my opinion blockcrush is not really a problem,there are only a few player who have a highlevel and make a pure STR build.
But it takes a long time to get the requirements u need for a strong blockcrush.
ofc people get a bit annoyed when someone onehit them through their block,but only 1 out of 200 is able to make decent damage through your block as long as u have enough wpf,
a weapon with more than 2 weight and he does not have an insane speed bonus. (cav with morningstar  :rolleyes: )
Just dont run into someones attack when he is using a crush weapon, backpeddal works perfectly against blockcrush, especially when u are using a long polearm. (which should be nerfed ^^)

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