Author Topic: Why is everything getting balanced except Crush Through?  (Read 16991 times)

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Offline Xant

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Re: Why is everything getting balanced except Crush Through?
« Reply #90 on: January 29, 2011, 01:20:41 am »
+1
we're talking about the bar mace xant, lolmauls crush all if they hit(9 weight, 45 damage compared to bar mace weight and damage way lower)

O. Rite. Well, yeah. Barmace rarely crushthroughs my Krautsword... only seems to do that consistently when the other guy has staaaaacked strength but that means they're also slow.
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Offline Tai Feng

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Re: Why is everything getting balanced except Crush Through?
« Reply #91 on: January 29, 2011, 01:33:00 am »
+1
Btw if he was one of these so called "lobbyists" he would be calling for a buff for his class or a nerf to almost every other class, this is the only thread I see where hes actively calling on something to be nerfed.

I play all classes so have no need of lobby. I just retired (like 2 days ago) and went to try throwing on my polearm character, that's all - it is by no means "my class" - I didn't even use throwing until new patch when I wanted to try it to get a better picture of it and see if it would be more useful to me than, say, backup crossbow or just going pure polearm.
I mostly use polearms, but I don't remember ever lobbying for polearms.



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Considering I could crushthrough pretty much everything with 18 str and great maul, I find that unlikely!

Of course it's unlikely, he's fantasizing. Imagine that, he holds shield+spear and kills crush-through-ers left and right... while shield+spear is the easiest target when you have a maul. :)  But as he said, he was fighting "dumbies" so if "dumbies" don't know how to use a bar mace then it's OK. :)

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Offline Joker86

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Re: Why is everything getting balanced except Crush Through?
« Reply #92 on: January 29, 2011, 01:59:29 am »
+1
Tai Feng is right, people! Blockcrush needs to be removed. I thought a lot about it, and I have the same opinion like him. If all the blockcrushing weapons get useless this way (which you will claim inevitably), then either buff them (+ speed, + damage), or just remove them.

If someone suffers from heigher weight, higher cost and a few spent points in shield skill, then he fucking deserves to block every hit as long as he presses RMB. Use axes if you can't deal with shielders, but stop using a lame game mechanic.  :rolleyes:
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline Mouse

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Re: Why is everything getting balanced except Crush Through?
« Reply #93 on: January 29, 2011, 02:06:50 am »
+1
Crush should be balanced in two ways, with the second being the most important.

1. Crush weapons are shorter than all other weapons, meaning a crush weapon will only get first strike against a competent player if it's an ambush or by working in concert with teammates.

2. Crush weapons are slower than all other weapons, meaning a player with a crush weapon attempting to strike can be "spammed" through. They will never have time to strike a player who constantly attacks with a reasonably fast weapon.

This puts crush weapons in their proper place as utility weapons, useful only when combined with teamwork, ambushing around corners (particularly useful to hold towers on siege maps) or against someone who has made a mistake.

The bar mace with crush is broken because it is effectively longer than many (all non-sword) one-handed weapons, giving it first strike in many match ups against shields, and it is far too fast to be spammed through. No matter what weapon you are using, 1H, 2H, polearm, assuming you play perfectly against a bar mace that also plays perfectly, you will always lose. Assuming two players with bar maces play perfectly against one another, the winner will be determined by random chance.

Many people say the correct response to crush is to dodge the attack. Dodging relies on failure in this case, not success, and so it cannot ever be considered as a proper response in game balance. (Dodging is only a correct response in ranged combat when you are at such a distance that you have time to move out of the way no matter where the arrow was aimed. In all other cases the correct response to ranged weapons is a shield.)

Offline Heroin

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Re: Why is everything getting balanced except Crush Through?
« Reply #94 on: January 29, 2011, 02:36:02 am »
+1
I've done extensive crush-through testing on a character with 12 powerstrike, and 105 proficiency in two-handers. The defender was a shielder with 5 shield skill.

These are the results:

1. The ONLY two-handed weapon that reliably crushes through a huscarl shield when the shielder has 5 shield skill is the great maul. All other crush-through weapons, including the old version of the morningstar, require great precision, timing, and a speed bonus in order to crush through with ANY degree of reliability.

2. Polearms(and possibly two-handers, not sure though) get a bonus against being crushed through that is a multiplier of their weight. So a heavier polearm will more reliably block crush-throughs than a shield of equal weight. I have seen a 3 weight polearm block an overhead from a 12 powerstrike great maul.

Knowing is half the battle. Hopefully those who think crush-through is unbalanced will be better informed now, and be able to cope with it through their own item builds. And before people ask, I no longer use a crush-through weapon. I stopped when they changed the morningstar, and turned my triple-heirloomed morningstar in for a triple-heirloomed great sword.

ADHD Version: I have tested crush-through thoroughly. Crush-through is not imbalanced. I do not currently use a crush-through weapon.
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Offline Elmetiacos

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Re: Why is everything getting balanced except Crush Through?
« Reply #95 on: January 29, 2011, 02:37:18 am »
+1
Yes, a Bar Mace rarely crushes through a serious shield even if the wielder has ridiculously high Power Strike because its weight is only 4.5 - half the "lolhammer". It's also unbalanced and slower than every single one hander on the list. Crushthroughs only work with an overhead, which is even slower.
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Offline Joker86

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Re: Why is everything getting balanced except Crush Through?
« Reply #96 on: January 29, 2011, 02:37:41 am »
+1
If in 10.000 batles one single crushthrough would occur, it would be lame.
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline Heroin

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Re: Why is everything getting balanced except Crush Through?
« Reply #97 on: January 29, 2011, 02:44:48 am »
+1
If in 10.000 batles one single crushthrough would occur, it would be lame.

Your opinion is noted. I respectfully disagree.
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Offline Joker86

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Re: Why is everything getting balanced except Crush Through?
« Reply #98 on: January 29, 2011, 02:56:44 am »
+1
Perhaps my post was too much of trolling. But I think

Shield = 100% protection. Always.

Everything else would be unfair for the shieldman. But you are right, it's only an opinion.
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline Tai Feng

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Re: Why is everything getting balanced except Crush Through?
« Reply #99 on: January 29, 2011, 03:00:17 am »
+1
I'm not against crush through as a feature. I also liked shield penetration feature.
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Offline Joker86

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Re: Why is everything getting balanced except Crush Through?
« Reply #100 on: January 29, 2011, 03:03:58 am »
+1
I'm not against crush through as a feature. I also liked shield penetration feature.

 :? :?:

This isn't about bar mace. It's about broken mechanic. Throwing, you can increase or decrease damage, increase or decrease stacks, etc etc - but crush through is *broken mechanic*. It's somewhat OK with really slow weapons (and even then..) but definitely not ok with fast and medium speed weapons.

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« Last Edit: January 29, 2011, 03:05:14 am by Joker86 »
Joker makes a very good point.
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Offline Noble Crassius

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Re: Why is everything getting balanced except Crush Through?
« Reply #101 on: January 29, 2011, 03:38:27 am »
+1
I've done extensive crush-through testing on a character with 12 powerstrike, and 105 proficiency in two-handers. The defender was a shielder with 5 shield skill.

These are the results:

1. The ONLY two-handed weapon that reliably crushes through a huscarl shield when the shielder has 5 shield skill is the great maul. All other crush-through weapons, including the old version of the morningstar, require great precision, timing, and a speed bonus in order to crush through with ANY degree of reliability.

2. Polearms(and possibly two-handers, not sure though) get a bonus against being crushed through that is a multiplier of their weight. So a heavier polearm will more reliably block crush-throughs than a shield of equal weight. I have seen a 3 weight polearm block an overhead from a 12 powerstrike great maul.

Knowing is half the battle. Hopefully those who think crush-through is unbalanced will be better informed now, and be able to cope with it through their own item builds. And before people ask, I no longer use a crush-through weapon. I stopped when they changed the morningstar, and turned my triple-heirloomed morningstar in for a triple-heirloomed great sword.

ADHD Version: I have tested crush-through thoroughly. Crush-through is not imbalanced. I do not currently use a crush-through weapon.

Didn't think it took shield skill into consideration. Any one have any sources for this?
and
Have you tested a heavy bar mace? I really want to know some ones like wallaces opinion on this I personally think I get crushed too much but maybe I'm just unlucky? Wallace seems like a resonable enough dude if he says its balanced then I will be satisfied.
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Offline Tai Feng

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Re: Why is everything getting balanced except Crush Through?
« Reply #102 on: January 29, 2011, 04:41:07 am »
+1
It does take into account the shield.


And Joker - I'm not sure where is contradiction in my posts. Crush Through worked in Native just fine. In cRPG, anything else than those slow short weapons just calls for abuse.
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Offline Mouse

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Re: Why is everything getting balanced except Crush Through?
« Reply #103 on: January 29, 2011, 04:58:28 am »
+1
A correct block should always block unless a mistake was made. (Meaning blocking was the wrong move to make.)
« Last Edit: January 29, 2011, 05:13:40 am by Mouse »

Offline UrLukur

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Re: Why is everything getting balanced except Crush Through?
« Reply #104 on: January 29, 2011, 11:46:38 am »
+1
That's why it's called the government :)

That was direct result of 9/11. Amount of power and control over people shifted after the bombing, so it's irrelevant who did it. It's like great enemy from 1984, it's so good that if he does not exist, it should be created.

About crush, it's not a problem with crush alone (despite that it deal way too much damage), problem lies in fact that after you are crushed, crusher can do it again and again and again and again. This is linked with movement mechanic, stun mechanic and damage system. IF crush would deal damage BUT not deal stun of death (unable to strike in, unable to move out) THEN it would be fine.
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