Why is everything getting balanced except Crush Through?

[Cepeshi]

So,
as a time from time barmace user mainly using swords i will try to be as ontopic and clear as possible. After the patch the popularity of Bar Mace going sky high is somehow alerting. But i also see much more swordboarders these days. What should lets say 2h swordsman do to counter the shield? Yeah, i can hit it few times to break and if lucky and not being shot/stabbed in the process, i might get kill. But trying to deshield a shield spec char without axe/hammer, is almost impossible (in the battle environment anw, as you have to usually watch more stuff happening around)

I see that shielders feel frustrated, but come one, being hit overhead with a huge ball of iron on a stick should leave some damage, and if it goes thru the shield you should get hit quite a lot (as it had the power to crush shield).

The problem is, when you would start "balancing" crushtrough, there would arise new wave of whine about something different, crushtrough is there for a reason, and when not in crowded places, it IS actually quite easy to counter. With crushtrough the manual blocks, i had either bad luck (while i was playing yesterday i crushed almost all shields after 2nd or 3rd hit tops, but on manual blocks i didnt go throug ONE!) or i am missing something on the weapon weight effect on blocking and stuff.

Anyways, leave it as it is, it will just take some time for people to adapt to new favourite weapon and then it will be fine again.

[Tai Feng]

So,
as a time from time barmace user mainly using swords i will try to be as ontopic and clear as possible. After the patch the popularity of Bar Mace going sky high is somehow alerting. But i also see much more swordboarders these days. What should lets say 2h swordsman do to counter the shield? Yeah, i can hit it few times to break and if lucky and not being shot/stabbed in the process, i might get kill. But trying to deshield a shield spec char without axe/hammer, is almost impossible (in the battle environment anw, as you have to usually watch more stuff happening around)

I see that shielders feel frustrated, but come one, being hit overhead with a huge ball of iron on a stick should leave some damage, and if it goes thru the shield you should get hit quite a lot (as it had the power to crush shield).

The problem is, when you would start "balancing" crushtrough, there would arise new wave of whine about something different, crushtrough is there for a reason, and when not in crowded places, it IS actually quite easy to counter. With crushtrough the manual blocks, i had either bad luck (while i was playing yesterday i crushed almost all shields after 2nd or 3rd hit tops, but on manual blocks i didnt go throug ONE!) or i am missing something on the weapon weight effect on blocking and stuff.

Anyways, leave it as it is, it will just take some time for people to adapt to new favourite weapon and then it will be fine again.

I'm sorry but I fail to see any pro-crush through arguments in your post.


"If crush through is balanced then something else will come in line" <= Yes. Thank you for noting, but this is how balancing works. You start with the most serious offender and work towards all options being viable. If you disagree with this, then I want a polearm that does 600 damage and has 200 range and 110 speed. When you tell me that it's overpowered I will simply reply with your line: 'if we nerf this, then something else will come up'. Great, isn't it?

"What else can I do vs shield" is a rhetoric question, not an argument. You answered it yourself - you can for example use an axe or bardiche. But I have a better rhetoric question for you - what can a polearm user do against archer when 1 mile away? The answer is nothing at all. You have to get into range. However a non-axe 2H can a) feint b) pound the shield c) bypass the shield with a nice side swing  d) use mobility and speed to put more hits in e) run away f) backstab/gang.
I beat many shielders as a peasant with a fork, so you cannot possibly justify crush through with "I don't have an option to instantly kill manual blockers, and shielders thus negating their main advantage".

"It's realistic because it should hurt". No, sorry, realism isn't valid argument of balance. I for one can't stand anime-flamberge and it's stats because they belong to cartoon not quasi-historic game. But when talking about balance, I am not going to say it's underpowered/overpowered because of realism.


Or in short, what exactly was your argument for crush through except "I use it so it's fine"?

[Cepeshi]

The thing is, one pro crushtrough there was, realism, which you do not find okay enough. The point with argumenting about chain-nerfing is perfectly valid, as i saw people whining on forums about pretty much everything and some of the stuff already "got fixed". There are always going to be people that are using some specific tool, which might seem utterly overpowered for others, but again, there should be counter for pretty much anything.

about this: However a non-axe 2H can a) feint b) pound the shield c) bypass the shield with a nice side swing  d) use mobility and speed to put more hits in e) run away f) backstab/gang.

For a) yeah, i can try that, if i am lucky and not hit by other enemy/arrow/teammate b) pound the shield is not that easy, with 7 PS it takes quite a few hits on the shield for it to break (i dont like axes at all, not using them in pretty much any game, personal prefference) c ) bypassing the shield with side is possible when the guy on opposite side makes a footwork mistake d ) use mobility and speed to put more hits in, yeah, that might be doable also, but not good in crowded/clusterfuck places as there is always someone behind you when you want to back off (at least it looks like it:)) e ) running away, meh f ) backstab/gang doable fine if the target is being annoyed by few other people, not if i meet a guy 1 on 1

I am not justifying it just cause it can onehit people, as i stated in my first post, i am terribly unlucky of going thru manual blocks (not that bad with shields) and except few lucky hits i usually have to hit a guy twice or three times in order to kill him(some mail armored). I just think there should be the option to smash someones head thru shield with a big iron stuff.

I actually remember times, when i was dodging xbowers like hell, cause they could oneshot my tincan, now in mail i can take two or three hits before i die, i would not like to see this happen with crushtrough. Like everything in this game, this can be countered.

If i went thru ANY block/shield on ALMOST every hit, i would agree with nerfing the chance, but as i am seeing quite often that the crushtrough is just not happening i would not say tuning is required.

PS: Tai Feng, if i knew how the troll points work, you would get one (dunno if + is good or bad here )

[Joker86]

The thing is, one pro crushtrough there was, realism, which you do not find okay enough.

It just isn'nt. Reality is not fair, but fairness is the most important condition for a game which is supposed to be fun for everyone.

The point with argumenting about chain-nerfing is perfectly valid, as i saw people whining on forums about pretty much everything and some of the stuff already "got fixed". There are always going to be people that are using some specific tool, which might seem utterly overpowered for others, but again, there should be counter for pretty much anything.

It's easy to call critics "whining". If the French didn't "whine" about their king we still would have absolutism in most parts of Europe. Damn whiners. 

I am so sick of the words "whining" and "QQ", I would simply ban everyone using it on the forum or ingame. It only shows that a person has no interest in discussing a certain topic, is full of ignorance and rather biased.

Was not directed to you, rather to the "overall whining" on the forum. I am sure in many cases it's really justified, so noone should call it "whining".

For a) yeah, i can try that, if i am lucky and not hit by other enemy/arrow/teammate

This argument can be used for almost everything. It's the reason why we don't have 100:0 - ratios.

I am not justifying it just cause it can onehit people, as i stated in my first post, i am terribly unlucky of going thru manual blocks (not that bad with shields) and except few lucky hits i usually have to hit a guy twice or three times in order to kill him(some mail armored). I just think there should be the option to smash someones head thru shield with a big iron stuff.

Shielder bought their shield for a reason: higher protection. You can't make all the things they paid for this (shield upkeep, sheild skill points, higher weight, lower reach/damage) useless by using a weapon which doesn't need anything more than overhead spamming!

I actually remember times, when i was dodging xbowers like hell, cause they could oneshot my tincan, now in mail i can take two or three hits before i die, i would not like to see this happen with crushtrough. Like everything in this game, this can be countered.

The pure existance of a counter doesn't balance anything. The chances for a successful counter must be good enough! And not the theoretical chances, or the chances a top player has, but the chances on an average public server.

If i went thru ANY block/shield on ALMOST every hit, i would agree with nerfing the chance, but as i am seeing quite often that the crushtrough is just not happening i would not say tuning is required.

I see and hear different stories...

[Matey]

yeah... just gonna say again... guys with 6 powerstrike can consistently crush through my 8 skill huscarls.

oh and there should always be certain opponents who you dont want to meet 1 v 1 because their build gives them an edge on you. i have 2 opponents so far who i will avoid fighting 1v1 if possible. you have to recognize your own weaknesses, no character is able to beat everyone 100% of the time, theres always builds/playstyles that will cause you more trouble than others. oh and all the whining about shields... i have 12 strength and 24 agility, i have 8 shield 8 weapon master 8 athletics 4 powerstrike and 1 ironflesh. if i were a 2h build, i would have 8 more points to spend... so i could convert 6 and have 27 agil 9 wm and 9 athletics, or i could have 15 str and 2 ironflesh and 5 powerstrike. the price i paid for my shield is pretty hefty... if i did a 2h or pole build i would be one scary person in 1v1 situations, but i couldnt break through enemy lines and be a super annoying distraction without my shield... thats why i have it... oh and to block ranged stuff.

[Cyclopsided]

yeah... just gonna say again... guys with 6 powerstrike can consistently crush through my 8 skill huscarls.

oh and there should always be certain opponents who you dont want to meet 1 v 1 because their build gives them an edge on you. i have 2 opponents so far who i will avoid fighting 1v1 if possible. you have to recognize your own weaknesses, no character is able to beat everyone 100% of the time, theres always builds/playstyles that will cause you more trouble than others. oh and all the whining about shields... i have 12 strength and 24 agility, i have 8 shield 8 weapon master 8 athletics 4 powerstrike and 1 ironflesh. if i were a 2h build, i would have 8 more points to spend... so i could convert 6 and have 27 agil 9 wm and 9 athletics, or i could have 15 str and 2 ironflesh and 5 powerstrike. the price i paid for my shield is pretty hefty... if i did a 2h or pole build i would be one scary person in 1v1 situations, but i couldnt break through enemy lines and be a super annoying distraction without my shield... thats why i have it... oh and to block ranged stuff.

See, the problem with crush through is that it doesn't take shield level into consideration, and if it can't, then only high PS guys should crush through (8+ PS) with a lighter crush through weapon like a bar mace.

But if they have over 8 PS they by god should be able to crush through.

[Tai Feng]

But if they have over 8 PS they by god should be able to crush through.

Nope.

Not consistently. Hard counter requires serious drawback.

What you're basically saying is that people can go 8PS and PT8 for lolthrow and lolcrush, and that's ok because they put their stats into it?
Everyone puts their stats into something.


No amount of stats should give you I-Win button.

That's my point.

[UrLukur]

The thing is, one pro crushtrough there was, realism, which you do not find okay enough.

If you argue realism, i would argue that guy who take the hit of heavy weapon on their shield (even if it's block, not redirection) does not get stunnedlocked and bashed until he is dead from this first successful hit. So it's unrealistic. Any other argument ?

[Thomek]

Nope.

Not consistently. Hard counter requires serious drawback.

What you're basically saying is that people can go 8PS and PT8 for lolthrow and lolcrush, and that's ok because they put their stats into it?
Everyone puts their stats into something.


No amount of stats should give you I-Win button.

That's my point.

I-Win

Level 30 (4 420 577 xp)

Hit points: 72

Strength: 27
Agility: 9

Converted: 2
Ironflesh: 5
Power Strike: 9
Athletics: 3
Power Throw: 9
Weapon Master: 3

Two Handed: 132

[Ganon]

Not even at 10PS you can always crush trough, you still need to hit the shield right in the sweet spot. Maybe the 3agi characters can, but if you remove this feature, then what good are they for ? I've already met only 3 full str characters while playing, so it's not even popular.

Tai Feng is such a troll, i finished university before he finished elementary school, i'm pretty sure of that. He made a thread to whine about crush trough, which is there for a reason, to counter turtling players. And even then it's still hard to do, i usually fail even with 10ps/30str, it's nothing near overpowered like polearm spam/stun or throwing oneshotters or sniping rifle precision archers.

About Thomek's idea of totally OP, throwing needs a good nerf, too many hybrid melee/throwers are appearing. Characters should be either good at one thing or mediocre at multiple things, and btw with 27str/9ps you cannot crush through consistently. I also expect throwing to get a nice nerf so it will be stupid to start one only to have to retire him because throwing without specializing in it will be useless.

[Matey]

how do you fail with 10 ps?? i think linden has 9 or 10 ps and he has a 100% crushthrough against me with his bar mace. i even tried buying a metal shield to see if it helped (it didnt).

[Noble Crassius]

Thing about crush through is it requires no skill, thats why every one is raging about it. Every crush through kill you get is the equivalent of a cav bump(nerfed). The patch nerfed the STR builds most active counter - the agi/wpf stackers. I can rarely out spam a bare mace user completely, and all it takes is one crush through then usually I'm either 1. stunned or 2. knocked down then 3. dead.

So everything" broken" pre-patch has been nerfed while crush through has remained unchanged...nerf hammer plz

The heavy Bar Mace is the main perp. Fast with a high chance of crush through = op.

[Ganon]

how do you fail with 10 ps?? i think linden has 9 or 10 ps and he has a 100% crushthrough against me with his bar mace. i even tried buying a metal shield to see if it helped (it didnt).

Against peasants it works more, i rarely crush through people with a steel shield. But you can go to the duel server and test it out yourself.

[Cepeshi]

I believe people wont like being hit by iron staff either, would they, i mean, cmon, it can knock u down also! It might not have crushtrough, but when you want to remove it or nerf it, i foresee the next on the list being the knockback

[DarkFox]

Dont touch crushthrough,but nerf barmace.People who tryed great maul,iron mace or mallet know,that its extremely hard to kill someone 1v1.This weapon is good only against unskilled shielder.Skilled shielder will use distance/spam,then stun-crushthrough combo will be useless.