Why is everything getting balanced except Crush Through?

[Xant]

Well sure a masterwork anything wins be it a lawlpike a lolarm a lolsword or whatever

Nope. The rest of the weapons, you can still block and fight against. Masterwork barmace has an unblockable overhead, and unspammable too, due to the speed.

[Allers]

I have 12 PS and I barely block crush with barmace

[Sir_Ironlake]

Can you people note difference between

- heirloomed barmace
- regular barmace

Every so often:

A: Heirloomed barmace crushes through always.
B: No, I have a (regular) barmace and I dont crushthrough often.
A: *facepalm*

[Ganon]

Can you people note difference between

- heirloomed barmace
- regular barmace

Every so often:

A: Heirloomed barmace crushes through always.
B: No, I have a (regular) barmace and I dont crushthrough often.
A: *facepalm*

Almost as retarded as people saying

A: Crush through is based on weight
B: I have this small shield, i don't want to put more points in shield and/or be slowed down by its weight
A: Then a barmace will crush through
B: OMG IT'S OP NERF NERF!!

[Kafein]

What crushthrough lover seem not to understand is that the problem isn't about heirloomed or weight. It's the idea of crushthrough weapons that fail from the very beginning.

Make any crushthrough weapon unable or extremely slow to block, then ok they will be both balanced and more realistic (obviously you can't block as fast with a bar mace and a sword).

They should be slow, but they really aren't compared to the extreme advantage they have over any normal weapon. Why do I think they are OP ? Just open your eyes : everybody and their grandmother uses a barmace since the latest "patch".

[DarkFox]

What crushthrough lover seem not to understand is that the problem isn't about heirloomed or weight. It's the idea of crushthrough weapons that fail from the very beginning.

Make any crushthrough weapon unable or extremely slow to block, then ok they will be both balanced and more realistic (obviously you can't block as fast with a bar mace and a sword).

They should be slow, but they really aren't compared to the extreme advantage they have over any normal weapon. Why do I think they are OP ? Just open your eyes : everybody and their grandmother uses a barmace since the latest "patch".

Again,barmace problem,not crushrough.See the difference.

[Sir_Ironlake]

i think thats was his point

[Gorath]

Gorath likes to use weapons that are not best in class

This is completely irrelevant to the nature of the crush through of a masterworked barmace.
Honestly it should be completely irrelevant to the game as a whole, otherwise everyone ends up using the same 6 weapons.  If you're a thrower you use X, a 2her uses Y, polearm Z, 1her A, etc.  If the game devolves into that then we've completely destroyed M&B and it's combat system and just turned this into your standard RPG/MMO.  Sure, I like to use weapons other people don't use.  Sorry, can't stand being a clone.  However you're still wrong when it comes to being able to outspam the unbalanced 92 speed weapon.  I don't even need the barmace to prove that as my mancleaver is 92 speed and unbalanced and other than some freaky specialist agility build you're can't just outspam my attacks with it.  Maybe Beeper, but only cause his build is pure speed utilizing the war spear stun.  Hit once, stun, repeat.  Barring that first stun though, if I block I can still counterattack without being outspammed.  This is the same with the barmace (same stats as far as speed/unbalanced).

Don't kid yourself either, it doesn't take even the proposed 2 days of training to learn how to press w and spam overheads.  Barmace/crush through style isn't complicated at all, only slightly above playing an archer.

[DrKronic]

Yea but just like in voice u completely ignore actual fighting in this game which is completly dependent on footwork and add in length of weapon and u do outright a mace user

And u combine footwork and any top tier masterwork weapon and u win

There not handing out masterwork maces are they? Cuz I must have missed the giveaway?

I can post about a thousand screenshots of me dominating with non maces on siege servers and in open battles they are not as effective because of the fancy footwork effect

And no not just one or two weapons in each class meet my definition of "top tier" more like ten in each class , even with that said u purposely don't use those lol it does make a difference

[Gorath]

even with that said u purposely don't use those lol it does make a difference

^
True, I'll give you that. 

Though just as we agreed in voip the problems come when you add in the ability to customize and expoit parts of the mechanics that were balanced against in native.  In native the crush weapons nature was countered by the stats of the characters using them to keep them in check (slow, short).  Morning stars were never an issue until certain players *coughFedorcough* early in cRPG figured out how to maximize the efficiency of the weapon to rediculous levels with guaranteed crush throughs (along with the 3x damage piercing weapons get to the head, which happens to be where you hit when you crush) along with the speed to block once, overhead, and call it a day.

Personally I still think any mechanic which completely removes a basic function of another player is a bad mechanic, and why most MMORPG combat is a joke at best, but it can be designed around so as not to be a rediculous issue.  While masterwork maces aren't just being handed out they're simply a matter of time, which is endless.  Like with the level issue before hand, and 10+ retirements with bonuses and really every RPG game you have to factor in that while it may take a long time to get something rediculous, it will eventually become commonplace.  Therefore time cannot be used as a "drawback" when balancing.  It's simply a bandaid fix, sweeping an issue under the rug for a short while before it comes roaring back with a vengance.

Would you be cool with a weapon, even a statistically poor one, that disarmed you whenever it blocked your attack?  Effectively removing your LMB while fighting?  I'm willing to bet that you wouldn't be.   

[DrKronic]

I wish u could wield a dagger in the offhand to disarm people with

If I recall correctly there was even a small dagger like weapon that was used with say a sidesword for example to disarm/break opponents blades(so say a block with the proposed "shield dagger" could disarm

That would be cool also I want the buckler to be held like a fist like irl so I can punch people with it and give me a spiked higher tier buckler

Also polearm stun does remove lmb, u can block but u cannot attack

[Heroin]

(along with the 3x damage piercing weapons get to the head, which happens to be where you hit when you crush)

I just tested this several times on the duel server with a pierce weapon and a blunt weapon. They both did equal damage to the head with 6 power strike. I used low damage peasant weapons to ensure the test subject didn't get one-shotted.

I performed the test about 20 times to ensure it was not a fluke. Results were duplicated in 19 of the test shots. The other 1 shot did significantly less damage. Presumably, I missed the head on that 1 and registered a shoulder hit.

Moral of this story: Pierce doing more to the head than other damage types = myth. All damage types to the head are increased, but it's not 3x.

[IG_Saint]

I just tested this several times on the duel server with a pierce weapon and a blunt weapon. They both did equal damage to the head with 6 power strike. I used low damage peasant weapons to ensure the test subject didn't get one-shotted.

I performed the test about 20 times to ensure it was not a fluke. Results were duplicated in 19 of the test shots. The other 1 shot did significantly less damage. Presumably, I missed the head on that 1 and registered a shoulder hit.

Moral of this story: Pierce doing more to the head than other damage types = myth. All damage types to the head are increased, but it's not 3x.

I always thought it was just a straight x2, regards of damage type. Just like legs are /2.

[Heroin]

I always thought it was just a straight x2, regards of damage type. Just like legs are /2.

This is likely the case.

[Gorath]

I'd be interested more in seeing the actual code from whatever file the damage calculations are in when it comes to the game.  Those will be concrete proof.  In your testing, was the opponent wearing armor?  What were the damage values involved?  Did you account for the difference in damage types against the armor rating, etc.

If someone knows which file the damage values are listed that would be most helpful.