Why is everything getting balanced except Crush Through?

[Heroin]

I'd be interested more in seeing the actual code from whatever file the damage calculations are in when it comes to the game.  Those will be concrete proof.  In your testing, was the opponent wearing armor?  What were the damage values involved?  Did you account for the difference in damage types against the armor rating, etc.

If someone knows which file the damage values are listed that would be most helpful.

Yes, at power strike 6, damage between blunt and pierce is about equal, per the information garnered from the damage calculator. And I tested it against both a felt hat and a metal helm. While wearing the metal helm, damage taken was reduced by an equal amount on both the piercing and blunt weapon.

[Rextard]

Whatever happens please don't nerf the spiked mace. Crushthrough or not it isn't very heavy and only has 70 range.

[IG_Saint]

I'd be interested more in seeing the actual code from whatever file the damage calculations are in when it comes to the game.  Those will be concrete proof.  In your testing, was the opponent wearing armor?  What were the damage values involved?  Did you account for the difference in damage types against the armor rating, etc.

If someone knows which file the damage values are listed that would be most helpful.

actions.txt:
strike_head_left 0 176160848  1
  0.500000 strikes 55 71 4 0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0

That's the text file though so it's in code. I'm not sure how the module system works, which files from the module system alter actions.txt? That seems like it'd give us the native values.

[EponiCo]

I think that's only animations (i.e. how your character reacts to it visually). The hitbox & damage mechanics would be somewhere in the binaries then, otherwise we'd probably have a couple of mods with different hitboxes already.

[rustyspoon]

I still think the crushthrough mechanic is a bad idea in general since anything that takes away control from the player is bad design. But, if it's going to be in here it could at least be balanced a bit.

The really big problem with crushthrough at the moment seems to be heirlooming. The fact that heirlooming a crush through weapon will enable it to crush through 100% of the time is just bad. Add that to the speed of the bar mace and you get something incredibly OP. If the increased crush through chance was removed I think you'd have a more balanced weapon. That way, if you want to reliably crush through you'd need to use the slower, heavier weapons.

Oh, and to those that say "crush through is fine just dance around it" I guess you don't play siege often. Not only do most maps have very small openings, but the defense often has places to stand on either side of those openings where they are completely protected from projectiles. After charging up a ramp to die 10 times in a row you'll see how not fun it is.

[Casimir]

long maul should be heavier

[Ganon]

long maul should be heavier

That would make long maul users too slow.. remove crush through from all weapons and nerf shields if it has to come to this.

[Gorath]

nerf shields

If you need crush through to beat a shielder it's a matter of being a baddie crutcher.

[Casimir]

Maul users should be slow, they are carrying big weapon BUT don't change the weapon speed its already acceptably slow, the main problem with long maul is that its longer, slower and weighs less than the great maul, which to me makes little sense, also think it does less damage. In crush through more weight is good, makes crushing more reliable so this would be a bonus to the weapon while preventing people swinging it two fast, which is the main problem with crush through.

[Ganon]

If you need crush through to beat a shielder it's a matter of being a baddie crutcher.

You can't nerf the counter to shields and leave them unchanged, that's just asking for more imbalance.

Maul users are slow, if you cannot backpedal out of maul range, you need more athletics or maybe lighter armor (maul counters tin cans, not medium/light armor users). Gorath i think you play on the US servers because i never saw you, but you're post qualifies you as a noob. Please learn the game before posting such shit.

@Casimir: exactly how slow do you want maul users to be ? should they stand still ? will they still be able to turn or should turning be disabled as well ? what about jumping ? disable jumping as well, how can you jump with a maul! Crush through is ok as it is, increasing weight may also restore the old barmace imbalance, where balanced or even agi characters wield mauls to spam people to death with crush through

[Gorath]

You can't nerf the counter to shields and leave them unchanged, that's just asking for more imbalance. 

The counter to shields are axes - bonus vs shields = counter.
Removing a players RMB entirely = crutch mechanic.

Please learn the game before posting such shit.

[Casimir]

a balanced build with a great maul or long maul will still crush through against most people ATM. what the hell are you on about.

I use a boulder (long maul) and have done for a long time, i've gotten sued to its greatly decreased speed and the newer, thinner model however the weight reduction has made it much less effective against sheilders. 

you seem to contradict yourself Ganon as you imply that only strength builds should be able to use crush through while complaining that people using mauls shouldn't have to move slowly.

In my opinion the slow speed to the mauls means they are almost impossible to spam, increasing their weight will make them less spammible but more effective at what they are designed to do.

Having used a long maul with both a pure strength build and a balanced build i feel i know what i am talking about and frankly you don't move THAT slowly using once, people will move faster than you and will be able to out maneuver you but thats is the balancing factor. To have the ability to nullify someones ability to block you should have the pay a large price.

@ gorath, it doesn't remove they RMB entirely, only for over heads. You'll find plenty of people die to side swings from bar maces and iron maces because they simply dont expect them.  Frankly i think making these weapons MUCH slower is the best way of balancing them.  Also the most amusing thing is to kill someone with a thrust from a long maul.

[Ganon]

a balanced build with a great maul or long maul will still crush through against most people ATM. what the hell are you on about.

I use a boulder (long maul) and have done for a long time, i've gotten sued to its greatly decreased speed and the newer, thinner model however the weight reduction has made it much less effective against sheilders. 

you seem to contradict yourself Ganon as you imply that only strength builds should be able to use crush through while complaining that people using mauls shouldn't have to move slowly.

In my opinion the slow speed to the mauls means they are almost impossible to spam, increasing their weight will make them less spammible but more effective at what they are designed to do.

Having used a long maul with both a pure strength build and a balanced build i feel i know what i am talking about and frankly you don't move THAT slowly using once, people will move faster than you and will be able to out maneuver you but thats is the balancing factor. To have the ability to nullify someones ability to block you should have the pay a large price.

@ gorath, it doesn't remove they RMB entirely, only for over heads. You'll find plenty of people die to side swings from bar maces and iron maces because they simply dont expect them.  Frankly i think making these weapons MUCH slower is the best way of balancing them.  Also the most amusing thing is to kill someone with a thrust from a long maul.

Why am i contradicting myself, if i think that only str builds should be able to crush through with a high chance, they're already slowed because of their build! No need to slow them down more and make crush through a weapon for agi stackers, which is nonsense.

[Heroin]

The counter to shields are axes - bonus vs shields = counter.
Removing a players RMB entirely = crutch mechanic.

Please learn the game before posting such shit.

That is simply untrue with the current item stats, Gorath. Here is why:

Great Axe      
weight 3.25
requirement 14
spd rtng 94
weapon length 96
swing damage 43, cut
thrust damage 0 pierce
Can't use on horseback
Unbalanced
Bonus against Shield

Long Arming Sword
weight 1.35
requirement 7
spd rtng 98
weapon length 102
swing damage 30, cut
thrust damage 24 pierce

The average shielder is going to have a weapon with about 100 speed, and 100 reach, both of which are better than the "highest tier" 2h axe. Furthermore, said axe is going to have the "unbalanced" flag, and no thrust. In exchange for all of these disadvantages, the axe user gets "Bonus vs shield", which allows him to destroy someone's huscarl shield in 4-8 hits. How is that a counter?

This means the following: The shielder gets 4-8 chances to get a freebie block and counter against the two-hander, who has to manually block 4-8 times before they are on "equal" footing. THEN, once the shielder loses his shield, he STILL has the superior weapon. lol

The above scenario is leaving "tricking" your opponent out. There are plenty of shielders who have high athletics, don't let you behind them, and don't fall for feints.

EDIT: I guess the point I'm trying to make is, if a 2h axe is supposed to be the counter to 1h/shield, at least make the weapon length on the 2h axe comparable to what it is intended to be fighting. Otherwise, you're giving 1h spammers first strike capability on their "counter".

[Ganon]

It will take 50-100 hits to destroy a loomed steel shield, and still alot of hits vs a regular steel shield. If you take the best axe, give the 1h the best shield as well. Also it only evens the ground after destroying the shield, and before that the turtle has the advantage. So removing crush through means shield will be OP, which is apparently what some posters are aiming for.