cRPG

Off Topic => General Off Topic => Topic started by: Sir_Hans on October 20, 2015, 06:34:58 am

Title: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Sir_Hans on October 20, 2015, 06:34:58 am
So the U.S. CIA has been doing what it does best... manipulating people to topple governments who won't bow down and suck the almighty american cock. Mainly we have been giving weapons, training, and resources to rebel factions who are against ISIS as well as against Assad, the current president of Syria.

Now Russia, an ally of Assad, has stepped up and begun a military campaign to stabilize Syria and annihilate all rebel factions within Syria. Including ISIS and including some American-backed rebel factions (and still other non-american-backed rebels)

Needless to say the US and Russia are not cooperating and tensions are on the rise..

(russian owned news)
https://www.rt.com/op-edge/318950-drone-turkey-media-propaganda/
https://www.rt.com/news/319019-msm-syria-russia-reports/
https://www.rt.com/op-edge/318827-us-fear-putin-syria/
(click to show/hide)

(US owned news Completely free and unbiased democratic news of the global world. Not american at all.)
http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/15/middleeast/russia-syria-hardware-lister/index.html
http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/13/middleeast/syria-civil-war/index.html

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/oct/18/john-bolton-russias-syria-campaign-blurs-obamas-vi/

"Until Mr. Obama departs the White House in 15 months, Washington must not do anything perceived as legitimizing Moscow’s new Latakia air base, or the presence of Russian aircraft and cruise missiles in the skies over the region. The suggestion that we exchange deconfliction codes with Russia is what the French call a fausse bonne idee, a superficially appealing bad idea.

Deconfliction is how friendly forces keep out of each other’s way. In the first Persian Gulf War, Israel requested deconfliction, but President Bush 41 refused, aiming to prevent Israeli planes from undertaking operations against Iraq. We should remember that lesson. We do not want Russian planes in Syria’s skies, and we should not do anything to facilitate them. Instead, we should make it clear to Moscow that we will fly over Syria and Iraq, and they are welcome to leave. Any incidents in the air will be deemed Russia’s fault and treated accordingly. That’s how great powers act. Not that we should expect it from Mr. Obama.
"



(click to show/hide)


(click to show/hide)

What do you guys think about these current events and the relations between US & Russia?
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Asheram on October 20, 2015, 06:45:49 am
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Asheram on October 20, 2015, 06:59:26 am
clearly your cheeseburger was better than mine no need to rub it in
http://forum.melee.org/general-off-topic/why-i-love-the-usa/msg1177118/#msg1177118 (http://forum.melee.org/general-off-topic/why-i-love-the-usa/msg1177118/#msg1177118)
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Grytviken on October 20, 2015, 07:16:17 am
(US owned news)
http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/15/middleeast/russia-syria-hardware-lister/index.html
http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/13/middleeast/syria-civil-war/index.html
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/oct/18/john-bolton-russias-syria-campaign-blurs-obamas-vi/


US owned news lol..... you are a dipshit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_parties_in_Russia#Currently_represented_in_the_State_Duma  Russia is basically a one party state with state owned and censored media outlets. The US has two major different ideological parties and all independent news agencies with different and varying political opinions. You can't compare the two. John Bolton and Donald Trump have absolutely no authority, relevance or connection with the present US government whatsoever, pure opinion and entertainment analysis.

 
  Iran and Russia are getting directly involved in a sectarian civil war that has been going on since 2011, this has nothing to do with a proxy war against the US, and they are free to do that at their own risk. Russia nor the US started the war in Syria, this is a matter of pure ideological differences here. Putin would rather support a authoritarian regime in the name of stability even if the regime has murdered hundreds of thousands of his own civilians, where the United States is willing to arm those civilians if they are willing to fight ISIS or if they chose to fight back against Assad.

 

   Militarily the US dwarfs Russia, in technology, experience and manpower. Putin knows his place in the bigger scheme of things.

http://www.globalfirepower.com/country-military-strength-detail.asp?country_id=United-States-of-America

http://www.globalfirepower.com/country-military-strength-detail.asp?country_id=Russia


Personally I like Turkey's proposal of an international safe-zone in Syria to stop the conflict in at least part of Syria. Russia flying sorties for the Assad Regime's offensive against the rebels is sure to create thousands of more refugees, and displace hundreds of thousands of civilians who understandably don't want to live under his regime, they need somewhere to go.


Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Sir_Hans on October 20, 2015, 07:26:32 am
US owned news lol..... you are a dipshit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_parties_in_Russia#Currently_represented_in_the_State_Duma  Russia is basically a one party state with state owned and censored media outlets. The US has two major different ideological parties and all independent news agencies with different and varying political opinions. You can't compare the two. John Bolton and Donald Trump have absolutely no authority, relevance or connection with the present US government whatsoever, pure opinion and entertainment analysis.

Personally I like Turkey's proposal of an international safe-zone in Syria to stop the conflict in at least part of Syria. Russia flying sorties for the Assad Regime's offensive against the rebels is sure to create thousands of more refugees, and displace hundreds of thousands of civilians who understandably don't want to live under his regime, they need somewhere to go.

Ahh the old, Republican vs Democrat charade.
Remember when Bush jr. (republican party nominee) ran against classmate & bonesman Senator John Kerry (Democratic party nominee) in 2004?
Nothing fishy about that at all... We are the cornerstone of democracy for sure. Our government leaders could never lie to us.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/skull-and-bones/

How is CNN not US owned news?
Who owns it if not Americans?

International Safe Zone idea being pushed by American interests by one of the few countries who side with what we are doing in Syria... What would stop all the rebel insurgents we are backing and giving arms to from going and hiding within the safe zone to evade russian airstrikes and syrian ground forces???
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Grytviken on October 20, 2015, 07:33:05 am
Ahh the old, Republican vs Democrat charade.
Remember when Bush jr. (republican party nominee) ran against classmate & bonesman Senator John Kerry (Democratic party nominee) in 2004?
Nothing fishy about that at all... We are the cornerstone of democracy for sure. Our government leaders could never lie to us.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/skull-and-bones/

How is CNN not US owned news?
Who owns it if not Americans?

It's what you call
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_journalism

There is a difference, RT News is funded and censored by the Russian government.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_strategic_organizations_of_Russia#Media
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Tibe on October 20, 2015, 07:42:12 am
How is CNN not US owned news?
Who owns it if not Americans?

Just because its owned by Americans does not necessarly mean its owned by the US. Russian news is straight up regulated by the government. Nobody is allowed to give out info "that could hurt the motherland" by the law. Imagine that and they call the West biased?  :lol:

This probably will not be a proxy war. Currently its just straight up war. US doing its regular thing of arming and training rebels that will probably go sideways again and Russia, basically mainly bombing US backed rebels and not ISIS and lying about claiming they are helping Assad. The only thing Russia cares about is making sure Syria will not be another pro-West state. And the US plan can easly go sideways again, even if it ends up working. US Trained rebels to guard their homes get bored and start raping their own lands, like it always happens.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Grytviken on October 20, 2015, 07:44:40 am
International Safe Zone idea being pushed by American interests by one of the few countries who side with what we are doing in Syria... What would stop all the rebel insurgents we are backing and giving arms to from going and hiding within the safe zone to evade russian airstrikes and syrian ground forces???

  The majority of Syria is not under control of the Syrian government, they could barely defend their own capital city before the Russians intervened. There would have to be some sort of multilateral agreement to maintain the status quo.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Sir_Hans on October 20, 2015, 07:44:53 am
I did not mean to imply that the government owns CNN.
But regardless if CNN is private or state owned, the opinions found within one can assume are American opinions.

I'll change the (american owned) title to make you nitwits happy.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Tibe on October 20, 2015, 07:47:42 am
Pro-West opinionated. I dont really read cnn. If it has "those filthy socialist euros news", than pro-US. :lol:
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Sir_Hans on October 20, 2015, 07:48:25 am
  The majority of Syria is not under control of the Syrian government, they could barely defend their own capital city before the Russians intervened. There would have to be some sort of multilateral agreement to maintain the status quo.

Still what would stop all the rebel factions... The ones supplied by America, from going and hiding within this safe zone to avoid Russian air strikes and Syrian/Iranian ground forces?
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Grytviken on October 20, 2015, 07:54:34 am
Still what would stop all the rebel factions... The ones supplied by America, from going and hiding within this safe zone to avoid Russian air strikes and Syrian/Iranian ground forces?

  Are you sure the majority of the weapons they are using aren't Russian made weapons that were captured from the Assad regime?

  It would make sense that if it were to happen Russia would be involved in the multilateral solution.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Sir_Hans on October 20, 2015, 07:58:17 am
Yeah, I am pretty sure. Russia is arming and supporting the Assad Regime, US is doing the same to a coalition of key rebel factions which happen to be Anti-ISIS as well as Anti-Assad regime.

U.S. is pretty open about how they are funding and arming rebel factions within syria that are against ISIS and also against Assad & the government of Syria.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/19/us-mideast-crisis-syria-aleppo-idUSKCN0SD16O20151019


"Opposition groups in Syria took a new turn in late 2011, during the Syrian Civil War, as they united to form the Syrian National Council (SNC),[4] which has received significant international support and recognition as a partner for dialogue. The Syrian National Council was recognized or supported in some capacity by at least 17 member states of the United Nations, with three of those (France, United Kingdom and the United States) being permanent members of the Security Council.[5][6][7][8][9][10] The Syrian National Council is considered to be influenced by the Muslim Brotherhood and include many affiliated members. The Islamic Front, a major anti-regime Islamist Sunni militia during the Syrian Civil War, is affiliated with the Syrian National Council."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_opposition

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_involvement_in_the_Syrian_Civil_War
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Asheram on October 20, 2015, 08:01:37 am
funding from visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Sir_Hans on October 20, 2015, 08:02:59 am
Go away Asheram.  :evil:
and take your artery clogging weapon of mass destruction with you...

At least there is a bottle of pills in the picture, most likely to help the person who's eating that burger have better chances of survival.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Asheram on October 20, 2015, 08:03:44 am
you only live one =p
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Grytviken on October 20, 2015, 08:08:01 am
Yeah, I am pretty sure.

U.S. is pretty open about how they are funding and arming rebel factions within syria that are against ISIS and also against Assad & the government of Syria.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/19/us-mideast-crisis-syria-aleppo-idUSKCN0SD16O20151019


"Opposition groups in Syria took a new turn in late 2011, during the Syrian Civil War, as they united to form the Syrian National Council (SNC),[4] which has received significant international support and recognition as a partner for dialogue. The Syrian National Council was recognized or supported in some capacity by at least 17 member states of the United Nations, with three of those (France, United Kingdom and the United States) being permanent members of the Security Council.[5][6][7][8][9][10] The Syrian National Council is considered to be influenced by the Muslim Brotherhood and include many affiliated members. The Islamic Front, a major anti-regime Islamist Sunni militia during the Syrian Civil War, is affiliated with the Syrian National Council."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_opposition

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_involvement_in_the_Syrian_Civil_War

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/09/syrian-rebel-forces-seize-major-military-base-government-forces

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-33064320

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-30476609

With over 150,000 casualties within the Syrian government forces and with many of their military bases having been abandoned or captured I would say that the majority of their weapons are actually Russian made. Plus however many thousands of weapons they captured from ISIS or other groups.

Much of the Syrian Army also defected.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Grytviken on October 20, 2015, 08:22:16 am
This all goes back to my original point many useless discussions ago. When the USSR collapsed Russia flooded the entire 3rd world and the Middle-east with weaponry because they couldn't afford to pay or feed their large military during their economic collapse, weapons have always been easily accessible in great quantities in these countries since the 80's and 90's.

 There should be a poll option where Russia goes bankrupt from another arms race with the US from making crappy underdeveloped robotic A.I projects and 5th gen sukhois that will end up being largely useless while their economy goes down the tank because it is dependent on oil while at the same time they are economically sanctioned by the EU and half the world for their retarded actions.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Tibe on October 20, 2015, 08:45:08 am
Who cares where the weapons are made. Are you saying that the US does not peddle with Soviet guns? Oh...man..im sorry to tell you but the US and everybody else on planet earth only deal with Soviet weapons in conflict zones around the globe. They only get Western weaponry if its 100% sure they are allies forever or if they have asstons of money. Pro-West rebels and poor middle eastern pro-West "allied" countries will never see a single West made gun.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Grytviken on October 20, 2015, 08:51:26 am
Who cares where the weapons are made. Are you saying that the US does not peddle with Soviet guns? Oh...man..im sorry to tell you but the US and everybody else on planet earth only deal with Soviet weapons in conflict zones around the globe. They only get Western weaponry if its 100% sure they are allies forever or if they have asstons of money or if they are stab. Western rebels and poor middle eastern pro-West "allied" countries will never see a single West made gun.

Yes and even these shipments are nothing compared to the vast amounts of weapons captured and acquired locally that are mostly Russian made, many given directly to the Syrian government from Russia.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Grytviken on October 20, 2015, 09:00:19 am
Alex Jones: worlds nuttiest conspiracy nut, Ron Paul, & other far right wing voices)]


This nutcase thought Obama was going to order the Army to invade Texas and put us all in FEMA concentration camps lmao
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Tibe on October 20, 2015, 09:00:50 am
To be honest. We dont really KNOW, if the Syrian president is actually evil. Sure he is a cunt, but who isnt. I mean the media does try its best to discredit him, but there really is no evidence. And the fact that he is taking Russias assitance proves little. The dude is losing his country to terrorists and Russians(seemingly atleast), offered some solution. I wouldnt be suprised if he even manipulated Russia to make a move, which is actually kinda smart. "If you dont assist another pro-nato country will rise in your borders" would have probably been the point. Playing the ruskies fears.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Sir_Hans on October 20, 2015, 09:08:13 am
This nutcase thought Obama was going to order the Army to invade Texas and put us all in FEMA concentration camps lmao

Yes, Alex Jones believes a lot of things that never came true or will never come true.
I could probably only agree with maybe a 0.25% of what comes out of his mouth, if that much.
He makes his money on promoting virtually any conspiracy theory he can get his hands on.

And he probably still thinks we are on the verge of the US imprisoning everyone and turning us into soylent greens.

Only reason I posted all those news links CNN/RT/RonPaul/AlexJones was to show the differing perspectives on these current events, it's not that I agree with what any of them say.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Kafein on October 20, 2015, 09:31:59 am
The US has two major different ideological parties and all independent news agencies with different and varying political opinions.

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Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: LordBerenger on October 20, 2015, 10:08:03 am
I prefer fries
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Grytviken on October 20, 2015, 10:48:54 am

I should have been more specific. Most major networks are sifted through corporate censorship to fit their political bias or agenda. Just because they are independent of government censorship doesn't give them legitimacy. Anyone can be an opinionated journalist or be asked to be an analyst for a topic or controversy, it doesn't necessarily mean they are a legitimate source of information. Even if they claim to be "independent".
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Grytviken on October 20, 2015, 11:02:44 am
To be honest. We dont really KNOW, if the Syrian president is actually evil. Sure he is a cunt, but who isnt. I mean the media does try its best to discredit him, but there really is no evidence. And the fact that he is taking Russias assitance proves little. The dude is losing his country to terrorists and Russians(seemingly atleast), offered some solution. I wouldnt be suprised if he even manipulated Russia to make a move, which is actually kinda smart. "If you dont assist another pro-nato country will rise in your borders" would have probably been the point. Playing the ruskies fears.

I think the Syrian Army has been put in an impossible situation, and most of them probably have good intentions to protect their people. Also Assad asking for assistance from Russia doesn't make him a bad guy, but the fact that hundreds of thousands of civilians died under his leadership pretty much condemned him into a position where there will never be peace as long as he is in power, so logic says he has to go.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Kafein on October 20, 2015, 11:41:23 am
To be honest. We dont really KNOW, if the Syrian president is actually evil.

Why yes, yes we do. Syria was and is textbook autocracy. No political freedom or even much freedom at all, assassinations, kidnappings, torture, racket by the ruling family, ethnic and religious privileges and the list goes on.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Vovka on October 20, 2015, 01:59:19 pm
 with the money that the US spends on the democratization of the shitholes around the world, they could build one paradise country on the moon every year. For all who want leave dat shitholes. The problem is that the happy inhabitants of the moon will not bring them profit (for the military industry) and oil.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Angantyr on October 20, 2015, 03:09:12 pm
It's a russian PR event to show they are once again capable of projecting power not only regionally but as the World's second strongest military power. And why not let them? Why not let Russia bear some of the responsibility. Especially in a shitty war like this one. It's not like there's any good or bad guys in the Syrian conflict, NATO has currently no idea who to back because they are all equally horrible and Kerry's ridiculous PR talk about supporting a democratic, secular government in Syria is just preposterous. At least the Russians are supporting a dictatorship that might be able to hold power, based in reality. If Putin can stop the humanitarian crisis from escalating even further he should be applauded even if his intentions are just realpolitik. It's very hard to get an overview though, intervention rarely work as intended anyway and has serious risk of backfiring.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Angantyr on October 20, 2015, 03:20:18 pm
During the space race, NASA spent huge amounts of money developing a new type of pen that could function in zero gravity, as the ink would otherwise not flow and the pen would be useless. This was to allow their astronauts to write and take notes reliably in space. American ingenuity at its very best.

The Russians used pencils. Because pencils are cheap and still work in space.
NASA aswell as Pentagon has from the get go been funneling tax dollars from the public into the private sector.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: cup457 on October 20, 2015, 04:03:49 pm
As long as Obamas in Office I doubt w will go to war, because he is a huge puss and syria already crossed his "red line" l0l, however the CIA are more or less independent and do whatever they want and will probably keep feeding syrian fighters or whatever theyve been doing even though its literally never worked before and has only ever cause problems
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Kafein on October 20, 2015, 04:32:54 pm
During the space race, NASA spent huge amounts of money developing a new type of pen that could function in zero gravity, as the ink would otherwise not flow and the pen would be useless. This was to allow their astronauts to write and take notes reliably in space. American ingenuity at its very best.

The Russians used pencils. Because pencils are cheap and still work in space.

About that, the problem with pencils is that they leave graphite behind and at low gravity this goes into all kinds of critical machinery in the craft, not to mention eyes. Pencils are also flammable and that is a major hazard in space cabins. In any case, both space programs started with pencils then used space pens which they bought from Fisher only a few dollars per unit.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Christo on October 20, 2015, 04:33:49 pm
About that, the problem with pencils is that they leave graphite behind and at low gravity this goes into all kinds of critical machinery in the craft, not to mention eyes. Pencils are also flammable and that is a major hazard in space cabins. In any case, both space programs started with pencils then used space pens which they bought from Fisher only a few dollars per unit.

Ah, a voice of reason.

Pencils break easily.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Vovka on October 20, 2015, 04:53:17 pm
About that, the problem with pencils is that they leave graphite behind and at low gravity this goes into all kinds of critical machinery in the craft, not to mention eyes. Pencils are also flammable and that is a major hazard in space cabins. In any case, both space programs started with pencils then used space pens which they bought from Fisher only a few dollars per unit.
on the ISS powerful ventilation (so CO2 does not accumulate around astronaut), so sure all the fine graphite particles will instantly sucked and filtered
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Christo on October 20, 2015, 05:10:43 pm
Because there were space stations like the ISS in 1965 when the zero-G pen was patented

Less vodvka pls
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Vovka on October 20, 2015, 08:52:57 pm
Because there were space stations like the ISS in 1965 when the zero-G pen was patented
Less vodvka pls
pretty sure C02 behaved in 1965 just same as modern )) and methods of dealing with them in a confined space similar )

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Pen
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: [ptx] on October 20, 2015, 09:20:39 pm
During the space race, NASA spent huge amounts of money developing a new type of pen that could function in zero gravity, as the ink would otherwise not flow and the pen would be useless. This was to allow their astronauts to write and take notes reliably in space. American ingenuity at its very best.

The Russians used pencils. Because pencils are cheap and still work in space.
http://www.snopes.com/business/genius/spacepen.asp
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on October 20, 2015, 09:35:08 pm
The Syrian proxy war, has been a conflict by proxy prior to and since its outbreak. A proxy war fought by various vested regional and international interests for a spectrum of reasons both political, economic and sectarian.

Just because during the early stages of the conflict swathes of mainly Sunni Syrian troops were either bought off or found themselves ideologically compatible with the Salafist Wahhabi ideology being peddled by some of the regional sponsors of the conflict does not make it a civil war. Many if not most of the fighters the SAA and their allies face today are foreign fighters driven by money and/or ideology and self interest.

If the so called "moderate" opposition came out on top in Syria, stability is still far from sight and even if attained would only deliver the Syrian peoples with a Saudi-Arabia 2. If IS ever came out on top, we'd see Saudi-Arabia on steroids. Under Assad for all his faults, a melting pot of ethnicities, religions and cultures were able to co-exist in a relatively peaceful environment. We would not see the same if either the "moderate" opposition or IS were to come out on top. Look at Saudi-Arabia today, do you see the Saudi's respecting peoples ethnic, religious and cultural freedoms? Of course not. It's their way or no way and that is the worst outcome for Syria and its people.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Grytviken on October 20, 2015, 11:19:40 pm
with the money that the US spends on the democratization of the shitholes around the world, they could build one paradise country on the moon every year. For all who want leave dat shitholes. The problem is that the happy inhabitants of the moon will not bring them profit (for the military industry) and oil.

Yes we need to profit off of the oil we buy steal from all these poor middle-eastern countries or their our economy would surely collapse! 

 There are plenty of reliable countries with large stockpiles of oil all over the world, Russia included. If they don't sell their oil what do they get? They don't have to sell their oil and they don't have to buy foreign weapons. They also don't have to kill each other over ethnic and religious differences but they still do.

  If oil is replaced with a more efficient energy source do you think all these middle-eastern problems will magically disappear?
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Kafein on October 21, 2015, 12:27:40 am
If oil is replaced with a more efficient energy source do you think all these middle-eastern problems will magically disappear?

Yes. I mean, "magically" is probably an optimistic way to put it though.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Vovka on October 21, 2015, 01:01:41 am
Yes we need to profit off of the oil we buy steal from all these poor middle-eastern countries or their our economy would surely collapse! 

 There are plenty of reliable countries with large stockpiles of oil all over the world, Russia included. If they don't sell their oil what do they get? They don't have to sell their oil and they don't have to buy foreign weapons. They also don't have to kill each other over ethnic and religious differences but they still do.

  If oil is replaced with a more efficient energy source do you think all these middle-eastern problems will magically disappear?
just stop claim what usa or any another country here for fix ppls problems and not for heir own goals
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on October 21, 2015, 01:19:27 am
A taste of the moderate opposition.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=78c_1445376835
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Grytviken on October 21, 2015, 01:33:55 am
A taste of the moderate opposition.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=78c_1445376835

No those guys are not moderate lol.  The US has been bombing them.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/wp/2015/08/28/u-s-drone-strikes-batter-jabhat-al-nusra-encouraging-moderates/

That crappy Russian propaganda video is referring to the US condemning Russian bombings in that area. There are Syrians there fighting those Al-Nursa terrorists and Russia doesn't distinguish regular Syrians from terrorist groups and bombed the area indiscriminately.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Xant on October 21, 2015, 02:08:41 am
A taste of the moderate opposition.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=78c_1445376835
You shouldn't believe everything you read on the internet.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on October 21, 2015, 02:14:02 am
No those guys are not moderate lol.  The US has been bombing them.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/wp/2015/08/28/u-s-drone-strikes-batter-jabhat-al-nusra-encouraging-moderates/

That crappy Russian propaganda video is referring to the US condemning Russian bombings in that area. There are Syrians there fighting those Al-Nursa terrorists and Russia doesn't distinguish regular Syrians from terrorist groups and bombed the area indiscriminately.

They make up the majority of the opposition the media and the West have tried to pass off as the moderate opposition. The "moderate opposition" do not exist, I also see that you've missed the FSA flag in the video. My post stands, your attempt to debunk it has not succeeded and neither has Xant's addition to it. In many cases U.S backed "moderate opposition" end up either fleeing, arming Al-Nusra, IS and other similar groups and then fleeing or just joining them with their U.S supplied weapons and fighting for them utilising their CIA training.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on October 21, 2015, 02:19:59 am
You shouldn't believe everything you read on the internet.

Neither should you. Brah.  (I win)
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Grytviken on October 21, 2015, 02:20:43 am
They make up the majority of the opposition the media and the West have tried to pass off as the moderate opposition. The "moderate" FSA do not exist. My post stands, your attempt to debunk it has not succeeded and neither has Xant's addition to it. In many cases U.S backed "moderate opposition" end up either fleeing, arming Al-Nusra, IS and other similar groups and then fleeing or just joining them with their U.S supplied weapons.

Al Nursa, the group in that video used to be part of Al Qaeda. They broke off from Al Qaeda and started attacking them. Originally there was some cooperation and a ceasefire between them and the moderate rebels but they ended up fighting each other so they got put back on the shit-list, there was originally some speculation that they might give up their extreme ideals but that wasn't the case.

 If you chose to believe the Russian propaganda that there are only two sides in Syria, the Government and the terrorists then so be it.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Grytviken on October 21, 2015, 02:49:41 am
You shouldn't believe everything you read on the internet.

Exactly it's clearly a repost of a video from years ago with a redubbed title.

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Doesn't look like the same city in the video anymore does it?
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Sir_Hans on October 21, 2015, 03:17:29 am
Here's a little update today regarding the going ons in the proxy war, this news was just released this morning. I first heard it on NPR while I was driving to work.
Good to see US and Russia at least are attempting to avoid incidents in the air now, still I think this particular development means very little regarding the stability of relations between US/Russia

"US and Russia sign deal to avoid Syria air incidents"
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34588286



I wish the U.S. would just back out of Syria... We'd save a ton of money going forward, We would strengthen ties with Russia, It's the perfect exit strategy
We've spent billions of dollars there and have literally received nothing in return. The region did not become more stable, Assad is no closer to being outsed, ISIS was formed, U.S. taxpayers took it up the ass.

This country would be so well funded and have a much stronger economy, if we stopped throwing money at every single problem that arises on the face of the planet.

U.S. SPENT $1,010,354,195 ON SYRIAN HUMANITARIAN AID 2012-2013
http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2013/09/08/us-spent-1-010-354-195-in-syrian-humanitarian-aid-2012-2013/

Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Molly on October 21, 2015, 10:40:39 am
Awesome, Tovi Murmi is back... Let the entertainment commence! :lol:
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on October 21, 2015, 01:24:33 pm
Al Nursa, the group in that video used to be part of Al Qaeda. They broke off from Al Qaeda and started attacking them. Originally there was some cooperation and a ceasefire between them and the moderate rebels but they ended up fighting each other so they got put back on the shit-list, there was originally some speculation that they might give up their extreme ideals but that wasn't the case.

 If you chose to believe the Russian propaganda that there are only two sides in Syria, the Government and the terrorists then so be it.

There are more than two sides. But that doesn't suddenly make them moderate opposition because they aren't IS, AL-Qaeda or CIA trained mercenaries.

If you choose to believe the Western propaganda that there are rebels only consisting of good willed Syrians who want "democracy and freedom" then so be it. ( Ask the Libyans how freedom and democracy is working out for them.)

Just remember what history can teach us. After the CIA had trained and armed jihadi's to overthrow the Soviet Union in Afghanistan (no doubt people like you, Molly, Xant would have been cheering them on), these same jihadi's took it upon themselves to form an organisation to oppose Western imperialism in the ME and opposed American bases in Saudi-Arabia and other places in the M.E. Eventually these jihadi's concocted a plans which saw them launch multiple attacks against the West leading to the deaths of thousands of civilians.

But I'm sure you, Molly and Xant are FINE with it right? Everything is hunky dory, civilians being killed by terrorists we backed was worth it because the big bad soviet union was driven back!.... You guys are living in a propaganda bubble.

Also
Exactly it's clearly a repost of a video from years ago with a redubbed title.

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


Doesn't look like the same city in the video anymore does it?

Can you quote a source for the original post to see how the information differs between the original post and the repost I plucked from LL, since the article you've posted in response has not disproved anything shown on the post I linked.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on October 21, 2015, 01:25:52 pm
Awesome, Tovi Murmi is back... Let the entertainment commence! :lol:

Damn Molly I thought you'd have gone to fight for right sector or the mujahideen by now. What a shame, I guess I'll have to put up with your sarcastic smarm again.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on October 21, 2015, 03:24:28 pm
Molly didn't shit a brick when terrorists foreigners came to live in their country, so got bitten by one and became a terrorist themself. It's pretty scary. But alas that's the fate of all LIBERALS

Don't worry Murmi, you and I will be the only 2 sane people in this thread. They wont get my blood! bajfowijhfuwefuibwerufer

Wow brah, hold the horses. I'm not calling foreigners terrorists. That's racist.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Angantyr on October 21, 2015, 07:41:42 pm
I wish the U.S. would just back out of Syria... We'd save a ton of money going forward, We would strengthen ties with Russia, It's the perfect exit strategy
We've spent billions of dollars there and have literally received nothing in return. The region did not become more stable, Assad is no closer to being outsed, ISIS was formed, U.S. taxpayers took it up the ass.

This country would be so well funded and have a much stronger economy, if we stopped throwing money at every single problem that arises on the face of the planet.
I agree completely. My country are also doing air raids in Syria and the only benefactor as far as I can see is military industry and affiliated companies and banks. Especially corporations like Boeing, Lockheed Martin, BAE Systems, Northrop Grumman, General Dynamics etc.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Grytviken on October 21, 2015, 08:14:07 pm
There are more than two sides. But that doesn't suddenly make them moderate opposition because they aren't IS, AL-Qaeda or CIA trained mercenaries.

If you choose to believe the Western propaganda that there are rebels only consisting of good willed Syrians who want "democracy and freedom" then so be it. ( Ask the Libyans how freedom and democracy is working out for them.)

Just remember what history can teach us. After the CIA had trained and armed jihadi's to overthrow the Soviet Union in Afghanistan (no doubt people like you, Molly, Xant would have been cheering them on), these same jihadi's took it upon themselves to form an organisation to oppose Western imperialism in the ME and opposed American bases in Saudi-Arabia and other places in the M.E. Eventually these jihadi's concocted a plans which saw them launch multiple attacks against the West leading to the deaths of thousands of civilians.

But I'm sure you, Molly and Xant are FINE with it right? Everything is hunky dory, civilians being killed by terrorists we backed was worth it because the big bad soviet union was driven back!.... You guys are living in a propaganda bubble.

Also
Can you quote a source for the original post to see how the information differs between the original post and the repost I plucked from LL, since the article you've posted in response has not disproved anything shown on the post I linked.

  You can't base your entire logic around hindsight and speculation, or even compare one thing to another without some kind of proof or connection. Just about everything you said was either some type of fallacy or illogical comparison. I don't think anyone has these unrealistic expectations you assume, if that were the case then coalition airstrikes from several different countries wouldn't have been bombing these various terrorist groups for years now making your entire point and argument complete bullshit.

 
  Let's pretend that the Soviet's weren't responsible for 1.5 million civilian deaths in their invasion and occupation of Afghanistan, let's also pretend that Assad hasn't killed thousands of his own civilians. Let's also pretend that hundreds of thousands of rebels and foreign fighters weren't already fighting against the Soviet Union in the Soviet-Afghan war , and a similar case exists today in Syria against Assad.

 
  Using hindsight we could assume that revolutions are easily hijacked. There are many examples of this throughout history. The Bolsheviks betrayed and murdered the Russian sailors of the Baltic Fleet who were public heroes of the Russian Revolution at Kronstadt. Osama Bin Laden was a mere lieutenant under someone else's command during the Soviet-Afghan war, but continued fighting against other various groups after soviet withdrawal and would later go on to lead the most notorious terrorist group. There are plenty of examples of revolutions and civil wars turning ugly.






https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inter-rebel_conflict_during_the_Syrian_Civil_War#Al_Qaeda_breaks_links_with_ISIL_and_al-Nusra_Front_joins_the_fight

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Markada
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on October 21, 2015, 08:39:42 pm
  You can't base your entire logic around hindsight and speculation, or even compare one thing to another without some kind of proof or connection. Just about everything you said was either some type of fallacy or illogical comparison. I don't think anyone has these unrealistic expectations you assume, if that were the case then coalition airstrikes from several different countries wouldn't have been bombing these various terrorist groups for years now making your entire point and argument complete bullshit.

 
  Let's pretend that the Soviet's weren't responsible for 1.5 million civilian deaths in their invasion and occupation of Afghanistan, let's also pretend that Assad hasn't killed thousands of his own civilians. Let's also pretend that hundreds of thousands of rebels and foreign fighters weren't already fighting against the Soviet Union in the Soviet-Afghan war , and a similar case exists today in Syria against Assad.

 
  Using hindsight we could assume that revolutions are easily hijacked. There are many examples of this throughout history. The Bolsheviks betrayed and murdered the Russian sailors of the Baltic Fleet who were public heroes of the Russian Revolution at Kronstadt. Osama Bin Laden was a mere lieutenant under someone else's command during the Soviet-Afghan war, but continued fighting against other various groups after soviet withdrawal and would later go on to lead the most notorious terrorist group. There are plenty of examples of revolutions and civil wars turning ugly.






https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inter-rebel_conflict_during_the_Syrian_Civil_War#Al_Qaeda_breaks_links_with_ISIL_and_al-Nusra_Front_joins_the_fight

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Markada

Without proof or connection? Proof of what? Proof that we've been backing jihadi's and extremists? It's all over the internet and is well documented and even on some levels admitted by our governments.  Without proof or connection of what? That there's NO connection between the CIA training of SUNNI EXTREMISTS back in the 80's and the rise of AL-Qaeda including its presence in Syria today? That there's NO connection or proof that the latest CIA attempts to train and arm jihadi's the exact same type of SUNNI EXTREMIST that they had trained and armed back in the 80's will  only repeat the same mistakes of the past despite being faced with multiple videos documenting their barbaric conduct? Speculation? No, its a review of past mistakes and poor conduct which has destabilised the region and led to the deaths of hundreds of thousands, millions of people. The same mistakes our governments are making today. It's an illogical comparison to compare SUNNI EXTREMISTS with SUNNI EXTREMISTS, or CIA BACKED REBELS WITH CIA BACKED REBELS? It's illogical to assume that these same rebels who've been chanting about the creation of an Islamic state and who've engaged in atrocities against minorities will not benefit the Syrian people? Who the fuck are you? Get your head out of your arse.

And about the so called "coalition airstrikes", IS has expanded and GROWN under their airstrikes, and throughout the years of these apparent airstrikes the U.S have found time to "accidentally" airdrop arms and equipment in IS held areas. As we speak the Iraqi army are uncovering U.S dropped supplies left behind by fleeing IS militants. In all these years of airstrikes we've not even matched what the Russian's have been able to achieve in a matter of weeks.

Also screw your attempted history lesson on the Soviet Occupation of Afghanistan. The groups the CIA empowered in the 80's to overthrow the Soviets were the exact same groups our armed forces have spend over 10 years purportedly fighting in Afghanistan, a conflict in which we've spent billions or even trillions engaging in a conflict in which we've killed thousands, many civilians and lost hundreds. If you want to talk about logic, tell me the logic of that?
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Grytviken on October 21, 2015, 08:49:45 pm
I agree completely. My country are also doing air raids in Syria and the only benefactor as far as I can see is military industry and affiliated companies and banks. Especially corporations like Boeing, Lockheed Martin, BAE Systems, Northrop Grumman, General Dynamics etc.

3% of Denmark's budget is spent on the military. You guys must be breaking the bank over there.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Grytviken on October 21, 2015, 08:55:16 pm
Without proof or connection? Proof of what? Proof that we've been backing jihadi's and extremists? It's all over the internet and is well documented and even on some levels admitted by our governments.  Without proof or connection of what? That there's NO connection between the CIA training of SUNNI EXTREMISTS back in the 80's and the rise of AL-Qaeda including its presence in Syria today? That there's NO connection or proof that the latest CIA attempts to train and arm jihadi's the exact same type of SUNNI EXTREMIST that they had trained and armed back in the 80's will  only repeat the same mistakes of the past despite being faced with multiple videos documenting their barbaric conduct? Speculation? No, its a review of past mistakes and poor conduct which has destabilised the region and led to the deaths of hundreds of thousands, millions of people. The same mistakes our governments are making today. It's an illogical comparison to compare SUNNI EXTREMISTS with SUNNI EXTREMISTS, or CIA BACKED REBELS WITH CIA BACKED REBELS? It's illogical to assume that these same rebels who've been chanting about the creation of an Islamic state and who've engaged in atrocities against minorities will not benefit the Syrian people? Who the fuck are you? Get your head out of your arse.

And about the so called "coalition airstrikes", IS has expanded and GROWN under their airstrikes, and throughout the years of these apparent airstrikes the U.S have found time to "accidentally" airdrop arms and equipment in IS held areas. As we speak the Iraqi army are uncovering U.S dropped supplies left behind by fleeing IS militants. In all these years of airstrikes we've not even matched what the Russian's have been able to achieve in a matter of weeks.

Also screw your attempted history lesson on the Soviet Occupation of Afghanistan. The groups the CIA empowered in the 80's to overthrow the Soviets were the exact same groups our armed forces have spend over 10 years fighting in Afghanistan, a conflict in which we've spent billions or even trillions engaging in a conflict in which we've killed thousands, many civilians and lost hundreds. If you want to talk about logic, tell me the logic of that?

Yes let's ignore more facts and get even more butthurt that all your assumptions are baseless and don't follow any logical order or chain of events whatsoever.  Lol CIA empowerment, that's hilarious, did you invent that phrase yourself? Yes the CIA must have been wearing mind control helmets and forced hundreds of thousands of Muslims to fight against the atheist communists who were occupying their country. You are retarded kid.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on October 21, 2015, 08:57:45 pm
Yes let's ignore more facts and get even more butthurt that all your assumptions are baseless and don't follow any logical order or chain of events whatsoever.  Lol CIA empowerment, that's hilarious. Yes the CIA must have been wearing mind control helmets and forced hundreds of thousands of Muslims to fight against the atheist communists. You are retarded kid.

I'm retarded? You're living in an alternate universe. Also answer my question. Where is the logic in fighting the very same armed groups we empowered, wasting lives and treasure with practically no positive outcome?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_activities_in_Afghanistan

I quote.

"The supplying of billions of dollars in arms to the Afghan mujahideen militants was one of the CIA's longest and most expensive covert operations.[5] The CIA provided assistance to the fundamentalist insurgents through the Pakistani secret services, Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), in a program called Operation Cyclone. At least 3 billion in U.S. dollars were funneled into the country to train and equip troops with weapons. Together with similar programs by Saudi Arabia, Britain's MI6 and SAS, Egypt, Iran, and the People's Republic of China,[6] the arms included Stinger missiles, shoulder-fired, antiaircraft weapons that they used against Soviet helicopters. Pakistan's secret service, Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), was used as an intermediary for most of these activities to disguise the sources of support for the resistance."

More similarities highlighted in the quoted paragraph which I may add goes to show how LOGICAL my comparisons are. 
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Xant on October 21, 2015, 09:13:15 pm
Don't worry Grytviken, Murmillus a famous retard, he was retarding like no one's ever retarded before in the Ukraine thread too.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Grytviken on October 21, 2015, 09:20:24 pm
I'm retarded? You're living in an alternate universe. Also answer my question. Where is the logic in fighting the very same armed groups we empowered, wasting lives and treasure with practically no positive outcome?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_activities_in_Afghanistan

I quote.

"The supplying of billions of dollars in arms to the Afghan mujahideen militants was one of the CIA's longest and most expensive covert operations.[5] The CIA provided assistance to the fundamentalist insurgents through the Pakistani secret services, Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), in a program called Operation Cyclone. At least 3 billion in U.S. dollars were funneled into the country to train and equip troops with weapons. Together with similar programs by Saudi Arabia, Britain's MI6 and SAS, Egypt, Iran, and the People's Republic of China,[6] the arms included Stinger missiles, shoulder-fired, antiaircraft weapons that they used against Soviet helicopters. Pakistan's secret service, Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), was used as an intermediary for most of these activities to disguise the sources of support for the resistance."

More similarities highlighted in the quoted paragraph which I may add goes to show how LOGICAL my comparisons are.

  So according to your mixed up fantasy viewpoint of how things work this is somehow relevant or a deciding factor in how a  very small percentage of those people who also had a multi-millionaire financing them became a notorious terrorist organization 20 years after the war, and every single Afghan fighting against the Soviets automatically transformed into some kind of super terrorist.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Angantyr on October 21, 2015, 09:22:21 pm
3% of Denmark's budget is spent on the military. You guys must be breaking the bank over there.
My example wasn't about quantity (for which Denmark would be a bad example, thankfully) but to demonstrate how military industry operate internationally. NATO countries buying for example the F-35 are incentivized by Lockheed Martin or BAE Systems for the Euro Fighter, by engaging in long-term agreements investing in local industry for the manufacture of assembly parts. The Danish company Terma has for example collaborated with Lockheed Martin since 1976, on the F-16, C-130 and F-35, for advanced composite structural parts and electronics.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on October 21, 2015, 09:44:45 pm
  So according to your mixed up fantasy viewpoint of how things work this is somehow relevant or a deciding factor in how a  very small percentage of those people who also had a multi-millionaire financing them became a notorious terrorist organization 20 years after the war, and every single Afghan fighting against the Soviets automatically transformed into some kind of super terrorist.

Not at all. However after the withdrawal of the Soviet Union the fighting did not end, the bloodshed did not end. The CIA and Pakistan backed elements in Afghanistan continued to wage a war against the Communist government in Afghanistan until its collapse from which the Saudi and Pakistani backed Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan was founded. This Islamic Emirate came to be as a direct consequence of the backing and meddling in Afghanistan's affairs by the U.S and its regional allies just as much as the earlier Communist government came to power with the backing and meddling of the Soviet Union, only Russia didn't see fit to bomb what it had helped to create less than a decade later. Afghanistan existed under a Communist government from 78 through till its fall in 92. A semblance of stability (inspite of the U.S and its allies efforts there) the West and its regional allies have failed to replicate, and yet have thrown endless sums of money away on that could have been better spent modernising their infrastructure and investing in science and education. The peoples of Afghanistan arguably had more freedom under Communist rule than they'd ever had under Islamic rule.

Talking about repeating history, let's just imagine that the Syrian opposition manage to overthrow Assad and take over. How long do you think it will be before the U.S and other NATO states decide to bomb the government that they had helped to bring about? Just as they did in Afghanistan. And tell me, how does that help the Syrian people? How does it bring peace and stability, freedom or democracy to the region and is worth it?

It's funny, because I'm trying to point out some history so that we may learn and yet it's you idiots who are failing to learn from past mistakes who are proponents of the same mistakes who are throwing around insults such as "retard". You fail to see the obvious similarities and comparisons between past and present actions and yet I am the "illogical" one. I'll have to conclude, you're bloody good trolls because that's the only conclusion I can come to after assessing your actions and words while trying to determine what your agenda is on this thread.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Vovka on October 21, 2015, 10:02:15 pm
  So according to your mixed up fantasy viewpoint of how things work this is somehow relevant or a deciding factor in how a  very small percentage of those people who also had a multi-millionaire financing them became a notorious terrorist organization 20 years after the war, and every single Afghan fighting against the Soviets automatically transformed into some kind of super terrorist.
through the intervention of the United States now after so many years, Afghanistan has finally become a prosperous, democratic country with a strong economy with a thriving agriculture and industry. And among the population there is no social and religious issues. GOD BLESS USA USA USA USA
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on October 21, 2015, 10:33:47 pm
A recent article posted on The Guardian website.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/oct/21/case-bombing-syria-david-cameron-airstrikes-iraq-dangerous#comment-61866886

It's not usual for the Guardian to post such an honest and pragmatic article in regards to the Syrian war and even rarer that I agree with most of the points made in it.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Grytviken on October 21, 2015, 10:41:14 pm
through the intervention of the United States now after so many years, Afghanistan has finally become a prosperous, democratic country with a strong economy with a thriving agriculture and industry. And among the population there is no social and religious issues. GOD BLESS USA USA USA USA



   
Quote from: Murmillus_Primelink=topic=68565.msg1177519#msg1177519 date=1445456685
Not at all. However after the withdrawal of the Soviet Union the fighting did not end, the bloodshed did not end. The CIA and Pakistan backed elements in Afghanistan continued to wage a war against the Communist government in Afghanistan until its collapse from which the Saudi and Pakistani backed Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan was founded. This Islamic Emirate came to be as a direct consequence of the backing and meddling in Afghanistan's affairs by the U.S and its regional allies just as much as the earlier Communist government came to power with the backing and meddling of the Soviet Union, only Russia didn't see fit to bomb what it had helped to create less than a decade later. Afghanistan existed under a Communist government from 78 through till its fall in 92. A semblance of stability (inspite of the U.S and its allies efforts there) the West and its regional allies have failed to replicate, and yet have thrown endless sums of money away on that could have been better spent modernising their infrastructure and investing in science and education. The peoples of Afghanistan arguably had more freedom under Communist rule than they'd ever had under Islamic rule.

Talking about repeating history, let's just imagine that the Syrian opposition manage to overthrow Assad and take over. How long do you think it will be before the U.S and other NATO states decide to bomb the government that they had helped to bring about? Just as they did in Afghanistan. And tell me, how does that help the Syrian people? How does it bring peace and stability, freedom or democracy to the region and is worth it?

It's funny, because I'm trying to point out some history so that we may learn and yet it's you idiots who are failing to learn from past mistakes who are proponents of the same mistakes who are throwing around insults such as "retard". You fail to see the obvious similarities and comparisons between past and present actions and yet I am the "illogical" one. I'll have to conclude, you're bloody good trolls because that's the only conclusion I can come to after assessing your actions and words while trying to determine what your agenda is on this thread.


  The problem with both of your arguments is that they are based on taking a sequence of events out of order to fit your own views without any regard to facts or evidence. Exaggerating and assuming cause and effect scenarios to fit your own twisted view of how things play out is not factual.

 If we wanted to go down the route of baseless accusations then we should also assume that Assad's Army is killing civilians because their Russian military advisers Kremlin agents trained them to do so. Russia has a history of murdering civilians in their past wars of Chechnya, Afghanistan and has even murdered millions of it's own civilians for political reasons in the past. We should throw all logic and facts out the window and assume that because the Kremlin heavily influences and control Assad that this is why they are killing so many Syrian civilians.
 
  In the past we have also seen many terrorists with Russian made weapons. Russian agents must have had something to do with their training since the guns somehow found their way into their hands the Russian government must be a sponsor a terrorism and secretly works to overthrow governments to put their puppet Russian proxy governments in their place.


See if all these terrorists weren't running around with Russian weapons and training from KGB and Kremlin agents of Putin then their puppet governments would not exist according to your logic.

 

 
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on October 21, 2015, 10:45:09 pm


   

  The problem with both of your arguments is that they are based on taking a sequence of events out of order to fit your own views without any regard to facts or evidence. Exaggerating and assuming cause and effect scenarios to fit your own twisted view of how things play out is not factual.

 If we wanted to go down the route of baseless accusations then we should also assume that Assad's Army is killing civilians because their Russian military advisers Kremlin agents trained them to do so. Russia has a history of murdering civilians in their past wars of Chechnya, Afghanistan and even against their own people in the past. We should throw all logic and facts out the window and assume that because the Kremlin heavily influences and control Assad that this is why they are killing so many Syrian civilians.
 
  In the past Russia we have also seen many terrorists with Russian made weapons. Russian agents must have had something to do with their training since the guns somehow found their way into their hands the Russian government must be a sponsor a terrorism and secretly works to overthrow governments to put their puppet Russian proxy governments in their place.

 

Instead of throwing around random accusations, why don't you pick out some points that I've made and then debate, argue or refute them? You're making insane sweeping statements without any real substance and then accuse me of doing the same. Up your "game" buddy.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Grytviken on October 21, 2015, 10:50:22 pm
Instead of throwing around random accusations, why don't you pick out some points that I've made and then argue or refute them? You're making insane sweeping statements without any real substance and then accuse me of doing the same. Up your "game" buddy.

  When will Russia learn their lesson defending dictators and supporting regimes that murder civilians!! oh the horor! It must be because of the Kremlin Agents sending weapons everywhere and their secret operations to control puppet leader like Assad.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_involvement_in_the_Syrian_Civil_War#Economic_importance_and_history_of_arms_sales

Russia needs to control the Syrian government with their Kremlin agents and Mercenaries to make money off of their military industrial complex, proof is here.


 
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on October 21, 2015, 10:57:59 pm
  When will Russia learn their lesson defending dictators and supporting regimes that murder civilians!! oh the horor! It must be because of the Kremlin Agents sending weapons everywhere and their secret operations to control puppet leader like Assad.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_involvement_in_the_Syrian_Civil_War#Economic_importance_and_history_of_arms_sales

Russia needs to control the Syrian government with their Kremlin agents and Mercenaries to make money off of their military industrial complex, proof is here.

You've still failed to debate, argue or refute my points. Instead you're now trying to redirect. I could probably give you numerous examples of the West backing dictators, murderers and despots, but what's the point? Anyone on this forum worth their salt is already aware of this.

Why aren't you decrying Saudi-Arabia's intervention in Yemen? Or its plans to crucify an anti-government protester? Or the Qatari and Bahraini crackdown on protesters? Or Poroshenko's shelling of civilians? Or Netanyahu's butchering of the Palestinians, or the U.S's collateral damage?
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Grytviken on October 21, 2015, 11:01:40 pm
You've still failed to debate, argue or refute my points. Instead you're now trying to redirect. I could probably give you numerous examples of the West backing dictators, murderers and despots, but what's the point? Anyone on this forum worth their salt is already aware of this.

Why aren't you decrying Saudi-Arabia's intervention in Yemen? Or its plans to crucify an anti-government protester? Or the Qatari crackdown on protesters? Or Poroshenko's shelling of civilians?

Must be CIA black ops !!! omg!!! they must be using their mind control devices on thousands of poor people who loved their authoritarian dictatorships and peaceful religions.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on October 21, 2015, 11:03:24 pm
Must be CIA black ops !!! omg!!! they must be using their mind control devices on thousands of poor people who loved their authoritarian dictatorships and peaceful religions.

Xant is much better at trolling than you. I'll give your effort 3/5 stars.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Grytviken on October 21, 2015, 11:14:15 pm
Why aren't you decrying Saudi-Arabia's intervention in Yemen? Or its plans to crucify an anti-government protester? Or the Qatari and Bahraini crackdown on protesters? Or Poroshenko's shelling of civilians? Or Netanyahu's butchering of the Palestinians, or the U.S's collateral damage?

 And you think that any country in the world can convince these people that they shouldn't kill each other? It's obviously a security problem for Saudi-Arabia to have an Iranian backed coup government on their boarder with many lawless regions inside the country that operate terrorist training camps.

 And by the way the US does try to pressure Saudi Arabia to change their ways, but that doesn't mean they listen or care to listen. Saudi Arabia and Iran are ideological enemies.  And Iran has intervened in many conflicts throughout the region and created many enemies themselves.

In Ukraine it goes both ways I guess. Shelling kills civilians and Russian separatists shot down a civilian airliner, both sides are not great here.

 
Israel doesn't listen to anyone, and I don't blame them.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Grytviken on October 21, 2015, 11:20:38 pm
Xant is much better at trolling than you. I'll give your effort 3/5 stars.

So it's only trolling if I take things out of context with total disregard to the present situation or sequence of events, it's nice that you at least came to terms with your own standards of retardation.

I also much prefer Vovka, at least I know he is probably drunk and deeply in love with Putin.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on October 21, 2015, 11:23:38 pm
And you think that any country in the world can convince these people that they shouldn't kill each other? It's obviously a security problem for Saudi-Arabia to have an Iranian backed coup government on their boarder with many lawless regions inside the country that operate terrorist training camps.

 And by the way the US does try to pressure Saudi Arabia to change their ways, but that doesn't mean they listen or care to listen. Saudi Arabia and Iran are ideological enemies.  And Iran has intervened in many conflicts throughout the region and created many enemies themselves.

In Ukraine it goes both ways I guess. Shelling kills civilians and Russian separatists shot down a civilian airliner, both sides are not great here.

 
Israel doesn't listen to anyone, and I don't blame them.

Ah right, you criticise me for stating Assad is better for Syria than IS, Al-Nusra and other AL-Qaeda affiliates but you defend Saudi-Arabia's actions? I think we're done here.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Grytviken on October 21, 2015, 11:27:57 pm
Ah right, you criticise me for stating Assad is better for Syria than IS, Al-Nusra and other AL-Qaeda affiliates but you defend Saudi-Arabia's actions? I think we're done here.

   It seems pretty simple to me, if the majority of Syrians thought the same thing they would have sided with him.

Also I don't think the Syrian Army are the bad guys, they are just doing their job in a desperate situation. On top of fighting rebels they are also fighting the scum of the earth who do not have any rules of engagement, so of course civilians are going to be killed in the crossfire. But since the majority of the population didn't back Assad and he chose to fight barbarity with more barbarity it's not logical there will ever be peace as long as he is in power.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Vovka on October 21, 2015, 11:34:39 pm
So it's only trolling if I take things out of context with total disregard to the present situation or sequence of events, it's nice that you at least came to terms with your own standards of retardation.

I also much prefer Vovka, at least I know he is probably drunk and deeply in love with Putin.
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  :o
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on October 21, 2015, 11:41:36 pm
   It seems pretty simple to me, if the majority of Syrians thought the same thing they would have sided with him.

Also I don't think the Syrian Army is bad, they are just doing their job in a desperate situation. On top of fighting rebels they are also fighting the scum of the earth who do not have any rules of engagement, so of course civilians are going to be killed in the crossfire. But since the majority of the population didn't back Assad and he chose to fight barbarity with more barbarity it's not logical there will ever be peace as long as he is in power.

If the majority of the population didn't back Assad, how did he manage to stay in power for so long under such conditions? No wartime president would be able to survive a civil war for so long if there was not large amount of grassroots support for its government.

On that note, pro-Syrian and Russian government demonstrations have taken place in different countries.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=426_1445452186

(I'm not aware of the date or countries of origin that these demonstrations initially took place or whether the post has been stolen from another source and renamed but the content in the video pretty much speaks for itself.)
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Grytviken on October 21, 2015, 11:46:06 pm
If the majority of the population didn't back Assad, how did he manage to stay in power for so long under such conditions? No wartime president would be able to survive a civil war for so long if there was not large amount of grassroots support for its government.

On that note, pro-Syrian and Russian government demonstrations have taken place in different countries.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=426_1445452186

(I'm not aware of the date that these demonstrations initially took place or whether the post has been stolen from another source and renamed but the content in the video pretty much speaks for itself.)

    He has a large group of supporters yes, that's why it's called a civil war. He had a large advantage from the start with a professional military intact fighting against mostly untrained and poorly armed civilians. Also Iranian and Lebanese troops were sent to aid Assad.  Russian intervention came when he was in danger of losing his capital city Damascus, most of which has been leveled in the fighting.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Grytviken on October 22, 2015, 12:05:05 am
Also if all your bullshit accusations were true then why would the US conduct airstrikes in Syria against ISIS who were largely gaining LOTS of territory and beating the Syrian Army almost everywhere. The US has probably indirectly helped Assad more than they have hurt him so far. If the US wanted Assad gone at all costs it would have been easy to turn a blind eye and let them rampage through Syria when they were on a roll.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on October 22, 2015, 12:10:00 am
Also if all your bullshit accusations were true then why would the US conduct airstrikes in Syria against ISIS who were largely gaining LOTS of territory and beating the Syrian Army almost everywhere. The US has probably indirectly helped Assad more than they have hurt him so far. If the US wanted Assad gone at all costs it would have been easy to turn a blind eye and let them rampage through Syria when they were on a roll.

Indirectly helped Assad? By DIRECTLY supporting the opposition? My accusations are true.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Grytviken on October 22, 2015, 12:19:11 am
Indirectly helped Assad? By DIRECTLY supporting the opposition? My accusations are true.

  Direct intervention would be Hezbollah, Iranian and Russian troops fighting on Assad's side, the US has not directly intervened, only Iran, Hezbollah and Russia have.

 Direct US intervention against ISIS has only been to Assad's benefit.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Xant on October 22, 2015, 12:41:18 am
Murmillus getting wrecked.  :shock:
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Grytviken on October 22, 2015, 12:43:11 am
My neverending love for Putin grows every day

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Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on October 22, 2015, 01:43:00 am
el Rifaat, Syria (Oct.16, 2015) -- ISIS and FSA Hold Joint Protest Rally Against Russian Airstrikes

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=a7f_1445036376

Obama Slips Up: "We're Training ISIL"

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=d88_1444954071

US Cargo Planes Drop Ammunitions to Militants in Northern Syria

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=c00_1444739747

Iraq - US caught in the act as it drops supplies to ISIS fighters at the Baili reffinery

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=3b6_1444569050

The Tragic Ending To Obama's Bay Of Pigs: CIA Hands Over Syria To Russia

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=5c1_1444520076

Pentagon: US pays Syrian rebels up to $400 a month

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ca4_1445115376

FSA Joins Forces With ISIS

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=950_1445128860

Evidence of U.S. Army support of ISIS (Daash)

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=921_1445277883
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Lt_Anders on October 22, 2015, 01:57:58 am
Those sources.

(click to show/hide)

A video game cargo drop...

Also, for that article: That's the Kurdish Controlled Zone.
http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-10-15/u-s-airdrop-in-syria-ends-up-arming-the-kurds

Does this fit your "Proxy war" propaganda you're spewing?
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Grytviken on October 22, 2015, 02:01:46 am
I used to love liveleak until it got spammed to death with shit propaganda by paid Russian trolls

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/07/magazine/the-agency.html
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Grytviken on October 22, 2015, 02:08:50 am
Those sources.

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A video game cargo drop...


Damn, Murmillius down lmao , So many call of dooty black ops conspiracy theories in here.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Xant on October 22, 2015, 02:12:49 am
Hahahhahha Murmillus goes full retard again
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Vovka on October 22, 2015, 02:50:50 am
Hahahhahha Murmillus goes full retard again
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Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Eugen on October 22, 2015, 07:11:26 am
So it looks like Russia does something right for a change. Helping Assad to gain control is at least a step in the direction of some stability imho. Assad may not be a peoples hero - but he could keep the radicals at bay - better then some funded rebels for shure.

I dont think the arabic world would need one more revolution of the people leaving power vacum and civil unrest behind - opening the countriy up for radicals to take over.

A real change can not be force by foreign money, weapons and training but only from inner will.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: [ptx] on October 22, 2015, 08:20:00 am
Arguing with Durrmillus?
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Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on October 22, 2015, 09:13:38 am
Lmao. So you can't disprove much of what I've posted and you still attack me? Come on, get a grip!

Disprove FSA and ISIS co-operating, working together. Prove there is a moderate opposition. Disprove the U.S/West is backing a non-existent moderate opposition and that its weapons end up falling into the hands of the extremists. How else did IS get hold of all those lovely Toyota pickups?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/revealed-what-the-west-has-given-syrias-rebels-8756447.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-22906965

I quote:

"But on 14 June 2013 Washington said it would give the rebels "direct military aid" after concluding Syrian troops had used chemical weapons."
"In June 2012, US officials said CIA officers were operating in Turkey, helping decide which groups would receive weapons"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/10283758/First-Syria-rebels-armed-and-trained-by-CIA-on-way-to-battlefield.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/cia-ramping-up-covert-training-program-for-moderate-syrian-rebels/2013/10/02/a0bba084-2af6-11e3-8ade-a1f23cda135e_story.html

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/10/10/cia-backed-syrian-rebels-were-making-gains-before-russian-intervention/

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/02/us-mideast-crisis-russia-syria-idUSKCN0RV41O20151002

You're not just supporting Saudi-Arabia but you're also supporting their head cutting proxies. You can't get worse than that buddy. You guys can't disprove shit and still throw around the retard word. If you want to find a retard, look yourselves in the mirror.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Xant on October 22, 2015, 10:34:55 am
Murmillus pulls the good old Tovi maneuver of posting total bullshit, ignoring it when his sources turn out to be a computer game, and just continuing to post total crap.


Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Molly on October 22, 2015, 10:47:10 am
Murmillus pulls the good old Tovi maneuver of posting total bullshit, ignoring it when his sources turn out to be a computer game, and just continuing to post total crap.

Called it first :P
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Torben on October 22, 2015, 10:48:04 am
A real change can not be force by foreign money, weapons and training but only from inner will.

true,  but helping a tyrant keeping his power is just as fucked up.  terror from an "official" regime cant be called stability.  In fact,  the only force in syria working by the geneva convention are the kurds.  The only right thing would have been to let them do their thing in northern syria.  Unfortunately Erdogan wont let that happen.  I hope for the sake of the whole region, including turkey ofc,  that he wont win the next elections.  but thanks to the support of western politicians he is gaining momentum once again.

so all in all syria is once again playground of foreign powers,  isis just being a symptom of their games.

sry for not reading rest and posting randomly,  but fug,  way long convo alrerdy
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Grytviken on October 22, 2015, 11:18:37 am
You're not just supporting Saudi-Arabia but you're also supporting their head cutting proxies. You can't get worse than that buddy. You guys can't disprove shit and still throw around the retard word. If you want to find a retard, look yourselves in the mirror.


   So when a dictator calls in three foreign powers, Iran, Russia and Lebanon to openly help him attack his own citizens you don't see anything wrong here? You don't see any kind of weakness or desperation?
   
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Vovka on October 22, 2015, 01:32:14 pm
   So when a dictator calls in three foreign powers, Iran, Russia and Lebanon to openly help him attack his own citizens you don't see anything wrong here? You don't see any kind of weakness or desperation?
 
These citizens anyway would have died driving a car bomb so its ok
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on October 22, 2015, 02:13:30 pm

   So when a dictator calls in three foreign powers, Iran, Russia and Lebanon to openly help him attack his own citizens you don't see anything wrong here? You don't see any kind of weakness or desperation?
 

Attacking "your own citizens" with vehicle based improvised explosive devices, "hell cannons" and chemical weapons is ok though right? As is religiously and ethnically cleansing numerous ethno-religious groups who've existed in Syria for hundreds of years simply because they won't conform to a particular interpretation of Islam. These ethno-religious groups co-existed under Assad, they will not be allowed to exist under Saudi backed puppets. There will be ethnic cleansing and you support it.

Retards go in and destabilise Libya, turn a relatively developed nation into a shithole cus "big bad evil diktater" and now retards want to do the same in Syria. Retards like you support the very same type of terrorism that thrives on the ideology which drove jihadi's to gun down innocent civilians on beaches, in cartoon studios, on trains and on buses.  Brain dead pricks like you, Xant, Molly and PTX won't be satisfied until we're all living under the black flag of the caliphate.

We cannot export democracy, we cannot export freedom, we cannot export western values. That is not how the world works, it not realistic to think we can and it's about time idiots like you come back to reality and pop those bubbles you're living in.

And you know what, I'm not usually an advocate for the consensus in arguments. I'm aware that the majority can be wrong as they have been time and time again, but in this case it seems the consensus supports Russia's position and rightfully so too. It seems your anti-Russian hate will trump any logic or sense, if Russia's interests are hurt that's all you care about even if the means to do so come back and bite us all on the arses afterwards, sees hundreds of thousands of people killed and the survivors living under religious oppression.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Piok on October 22, 2015, 02:56:33 pm
In Comparison to Saudi Arabia and most gulf states  Syria was beacon of tolerance and democracy.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Leshma on October 22, 2015, 03:11:22 pm
So it looks like Russia does something right for a change.

Easy to say its right thing to do when bombs aren't flying above your head.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: cup457 on October 22, 2015, 03:25:50 pm
the problem with Assad in syria is that he is a christian ruling over a mixed muslim/catholic nation. Religions not not really mix well ever. The cia funding for afghanistan was relevant because we gave them a fuck ton of stinger missles back in the 80s which i guarantee were not used up, and back in the early 2000s it was worried that they would be used to bring down passenger planes or USAF planes. When CIA funds things its not really the training or guns its advanced technology like stinger missles that ends up there to that the terrorists would not normally get access to.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on October 22, 2015, 03:35:24 pm
the problem with Assad in syria is that he is a christian ruling over a mixed muslim/catholic nation. Religions not not really mix well ever. The cia funding for afghanistan was relevant because we gave them a fuck ton of stinger missles back in the 80s which i guarantee were not used up, and back in the early 2000s it was worried that they would be used to bring down passenger planes or USAF planes. When CIA funds things its not really the training or guns its advanced technology like stinger missles that ends up there to that the terrorists would not normally get access to.

Sorry to correct you but he's an Alawite which is a sect of Shia Islam. The country he presides over is inhabited by both Muslims of Sunni, Shia, Alawi persuasions and other Islamic offshoots plus Christians, Druze and other ethno-religious groups.

The Wahhabist ideology being peddled from Saudi-Arabia and Pakistan, (both of which were backers of the Taliban who the CIA aided in overthrowing the Communist government in Afghanistan and whom helped established the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan afterwards), will not tolerate people worshiping other religions, gods or interpretations of Islam. They will tax, hang and stone their way to dominance and oppress the multicultural melting pot that was Syria, if they succeed that is.

Which is why its important that Russia, Iran, Lebanon, Iraq and others ensure that Saudi-Arabia, the Gulf states, Turkey, NATO members, Israel and others don't have their way in Syria as they did in Libya.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: BASNAK on October 22, 2015, 08:20:54 pm

convert my old friendets

I dont know what the fuck this is
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Grytviken on October 22, 2015, 08:23:46 pm
Which is why its important that Russia, Iran, Lebanon, Iraq and others ensure that Saudi-Arabia, the Gulf states, Turkey, NATO members, Israel and others don't have their way in Syria as they did in Libya.

  Right.. because it has nothing to do with more than half the country of Syria wanting nothing to do with him. If he is a great leader why do the majority of his own countrymen hate him?
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Grytviken on October 22, 2015, 08:44:19 pm
The Wahhabist ideology being peddled from Saudi-Arabia and Pakistan

  You've still yet to respond to how Assad is indirectly benefiting from coalition airstrikes against multiple SUNNI terrorist sects in Syria.

   The Russians might be slow and backwards in their ideology and goals and we have our differences, but they are still good Christian folk and when it comes down to it I would rather see them let loose their temper and anger in the Middle-East unopposed then fight side by side with a Muslim against them.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: [ptx] on October 22, 2015, 09:15:03 pm

convert my old friendets

I dont know what the fuck this is
Oh, the comments on that one...
Quote
Anyone here like einstein?
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Vovka on October 22, 2015, 09:34:42 pm
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 i know ur secret
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Grytviken on October 22, 2015, 09:56:06 pm
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 i know ur secret

 Is this a gift from the King of all shit-posters, Vovka? Ty nerd  :lol:

Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Grytviken on October 22, 2015, 10:29:09 pm

convert my old friendets

I dont know what the fuck this is

 So using tactics straight from the playbook of Stalin is a great success, who would of thought that! If you just kill them all, civilians included, there's noone left to complain  :lol: Even the cruelest Jew has nothing on Putin 
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Leshma on October 22, 2015, 10:55:24 pm
Even the cruelest Jew has nothing on Putin

http://www.jewornotjew.com/profile.jsp?ID=192
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on October 22, 2015, 11:34:14 pm
  You've still yet to respond to how Assad is indirectly benefiting from coalition airstrikes against multiple SUNNI terrorist sects in Syria.

   The Russians might be slow and backwards in their ideology and goals and we have our differences, but they are still good Christian folk and when it comes down to it I would rather see them let loose their temper and anger in the Middle-East unopposed then fight side by side with a Muslim against them.

Oh he would have been indirectly benefiting if they actually made some progress. Shall we talk about Israel indirectly benefiting ISIS and AL-Qaeda by bombing Hezbolla and the SAA multiple times throughout this conflict? Or about how they were treating wounded militants who crossed over from the Golan heights? Shall we also discuss NATO member Turkey's indirect assistance of ISIS and Al-Qaeda by bombing the most effective force facing them in the North of Syria, the Kurds? Well of course Turkey would, wouldn't they? They allowed tens of thousands of NON SYRIAN fighters to pour through their borders and enter Syria to butcher Syrians and subject the remaining populace to a strict interpretation of Islam.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on October 22, 2015, 11:47:23 pm
  Right.. because it has nothing to do with more than half the country of Syria wanting nothing to do with him. If he is a great leader why do the majority of his own countrymen hate him?

Also, stating that "More than half" of Syria want nothing to do with him is just a made up measure you've pulled from your arse. There's no way to conclusively determine how many Syrians sided with who or for what reason. Surely if more than half of a nation of around 22 million people opposed their government it wouldn't last very long, and areas under its control in such circumstances would not be viable enough for the government to resume day to day services.

Government held areas are still functioning. Rebel held area's aren't. This fact in itself speaks for itself in more ways than one.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Grytviken on October 22, 2015, 11:51:17 pm
Also, stating that "More than half" of Syria want nothing to do with him is just a made up measure you've pulled from your arse. There's no way to conclusively determine how many Syrians sided with who or for what reason. Surely if more than half of a nation of around 20.2 million people opposed their government it wouldn't last very long, and areas under its control and areas held under its control in such circumstances would not be viable enough for the government to resume day to day services.

Government held areas are still functioning. Rebel held area's aren't.

What's stopping the majority of Syrians from rallying behind him and ending the war? He has all the weapons and equipment he could ever need from Russia and Iran to arm all his people, is it the CIA black ops mind-control devices? You need to post more call of duty screenshots to back up your claims here.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on October 22, 2015, 11:52:53 pm
What's stopping the majority of Syrians from rallying behind him and ending the war? He has all the weapons and equipment he could ever need from Russia and Iran, is it the CIA black ops mind-control devices?

His army could not hold the majority of the vast and sparse areas of Syria, it was simply overstretched and under equipped and under attack from all sides and not strategically viable. The areas mainly still under government control are some of the most populated areas in Syria and again this speaks for itself.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Grytviken on October 22, 2015, 11:54:31 pm
His army could not hold the majority of the vast and sparse areas of Syria, it was simply overstretched and under equipped and under attack from all sides and not strategically viable. The areas mainly still under government control are some of the most populated areas in Syria and again this speaks for itself.

His Army couldn't hold the majority of any place, including his own capital, that's why he called in Iran, Hezbollah and Russia to save his ass.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on October 22, 2015, 11:56:44 pm
His Army couldn't hold the majority of those places you talk about, that's why he called in Iran, Hezbollah and Russia to save his ass.

A nation called in its allies to support it in its fight against a foreign backed insurgency, conflict by proxy. If over half of Syria supported the opposition, why have so many refugees admitted to fleeing IS and AL-Qaeda, and why does the Syrian opposition need so much support from tens of thousands of foreign fighters. You also forget to realise that when we talk about the Syrian Army, they have lost tens of thousands of SYRIAN born and bread soldiers to forces backed by foreign states filled with foreign fighters.

I don't know where you live, but just imagine a similar scenario unfolding on your doorstep, imagine Russia started backing communist rebels in your country, who would you side with? Your fellow communist sympathising countrymen, or your government that was elected and is run by your fellow countrymen?
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Grytviken on October 23, 2015, 12:00:48 am
  So you are crying about western nations arming civilians that are being bombed by their own government, but are cheering on a dictator who has been doing the exact same thing and calls in foreign powers to pervert his own lands and attack his own citizenry because he lacks the mass public support he needs to win the war by himself, makes sense.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on October 23, 2015, 12:03:03 am
  So you are crying about western nations arming civilians that are being bombed by their own government, but are cheering on a dictator who has been doing the exact same thing and calls in foreign powers to pervert his own lands and attack his own citizenry because he lacks the mass public support he needs to win the war by himself, makes sense.

He's not simply bombing his own people. He's bombing traitors who turned on his government, not because of his brutality but because of their adherence to a strict form of Islam which discriminates against other Islamic sects such as the Alawi sect he belongs to. He's also bombing tens of thousands of non Syrian citizens who were allowed to flood into his country through its vast and porous borders by regional actors with a vendetta against his government. Tens of thousands of fighters who have been armed to the teeth by some of the most powerful and richest nations on this planet, and even some who've been directly trained and funded by the CIA. Under such circumstances he's done bloody well and the Syrian people's support for him steadfast.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Grytviken on October 23, 2015, 12:06:23 am
A nation called in its allies to support it in its fight against a foreign backed insurgency, conflict by proxy. If over half of Syria supported the opposition, why have so many refugees admitted to fleeing IS and AL-Qaeda, and why does the Syrian opposition need so much support from tens of thousands of foreign fighters. You also forget to realise that when we talk about the Syrian Army, they have lost tens of thousands of SYRIAN born and bread soldiers to forces backed by foreign states filled with foreign fighters.

I don't know where you live, but just imagine a similar scenario unfolding on your doorstep, imagine Russia started backing communist rebels in your country, who would you side with? Your fellow communist sympathising countrymen, or your government that was elected and is run by your fellow countrymen?

  It takes one hell of a shitlord in power in the first place to have your own people welcome any kind of foreign intervention in the first place. Dropping bombs on civilians, using chemical weapons, and firing into crowds of civilian protesters tends to upset people on a massive scale.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on October 23, 2015, 12:07:07 am
  It takes one hell of a shitlord in power in the first place to have your own people welcome any kind of foreign intervention in the first place. Dropping bombs on civilians, using chemical weapons, and firing into crowds of civilian protesters tends to upset people on a massive scale.

Maybe you should look up wahhabism. You're clearly out of your depth when it comes to discussing Syria.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahhabism

I quote.

"Wahhabism has been accused of being "a source of global terrorism",[30][31] and for causing disunity in the Muslim community by labeling Muslims who disagreed with the Wahhabi definition of monotheism as apostates[32] (takfir), thus paving the way for their bloodshed."
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Grytviken on October 23, 2015, 12:10:10 am
He's not simply bombing his own people. He's bombing traitors who turned on his government, not because of his brutality but because of their adherence to a strict form of Islam which discriminates against other Islamic sects such as the Alawi sect he belongs to. He's also bombing tens of thousands of non Syrian citizens who were allowed to flood into his country through its vast and porous borders by regional actors with a vendetta against his government. Tens of thousands of fighters who have been armed to the teeth by some of the most powerful and richest nations on this planet, and even some who've been directly trained and funded by the CIA. Under such circumstances he's done bloody well and the Syrian people's support for him steadfast.

    They support him because they know they are going to pay the price for defending such a brutal dictator. If the face of the regime changed it would be much more credible, until then it's just a foreign Russian puppet regime that will become a magnet for violence and unrest until it finally collapses.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on October 23, 2015, 12:12:00 am
    They support him because they know they are going to pay the price for defending such a brutal dictator. If the face of the regime changed it would be much more credible, until then it's just a foreign Russian puppet regime that will become a magnet for violence and unrest until it finally collapses.

That's a bullshit narrative which can only be applied to a handful of authoritarian states. That's the kind of narrative that Hollywood films are made of. If anything, prior to the Russian intevention would have been the time for those who fear such a "brutal dictator" to seize the opportunity to overthrow him when he was at his weakest. They didn't. They either stood by him or fled to other countries.

Also refer to my earlier post.

"Maybe you should look up wahhabism. You're clearly out of your depth when it comes to discussing Syria.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahhabism

I quote.

"Wahhabism has been accused of being "a source of global terrorism",[30][31] and for causing disunity in the Muslim community by labeling Muslims who disagreed with the Wahhabi definition of monotheism as apostates[32] (takfir), thus paving the way for their bloodshed."
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Grytviken on October 23, 2015, 12:25:34 am
That's a bullshit narrative which can only be applied to a handful of authoritarian states. That's the kind of narrative that Hollywood films are made of. If anything, prior to the Russian intevention would have been the time for those who fear such a "brutal dictator" to seize the opportunity to overthrow him when he was at his weakest. They didn't. They either stood by him or fled to other countries.

Also refer to my earlier post.

"Maybe you should look up wahhabism. You're clearly out of your depth when it comes to discussing Syria.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahhabism

I quote.

"Wahhabism has been accused of being "a source of global terrorism",[30][31] and for causing disunity in the Muslim community by labeling Muslims who disagreed with the Wahhabi definition of monotheism as apostates[32] (takfir), thus paving the way for their bloodshed."

 The masses who do not fall into this category will not give the Syrian government any credibility while Assad is in power, understandably because he has the blood of so many civilians on his hands. Instead of making compromises and passing off leadership to someone else he chose to fight two wars at once and label half of his own countrymen terrorists. That's a rather selfish decision to make.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on October 23, 2015, 12:29:38 am
The masses who do not fall into this category will not give the Syrian government any credibility while Assad is in power, understandably because he has the blood of so many civilians on his hands. Instead of making compromises and passing off leadership to someone else he chose to fight two wars at once and label half of his own countrymen terrorists. That's a rather selfish decision to make.

But the whole "half his citizens, more than half of his citizens" has already been refuted by my previous comments, can't you read boy? You're spouting illogical, idealistic nonsense.

In other news, Qatar have threatened to directly intervene militarily on behalf of a coalition of AL-Qaeda affiliates in Syria (otherwise known as the "moderate opposition"). I dare Qatar to do this. The moment they do the light of the sun will be blocked out by thousands of Iranian ballistic missiles, which would surely turn the dictator led Qatari Island into a giant bomb crater.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/qatar-threatens-military-intervention-in-syria-in-support-of-al-qaeda-rebels/5483674

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-34538583
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Grytviken on October 23, 2015, 12:37:53 am
But the whole "half his citizens, more than half of his citizens" has already been refuted by my previous comments, can't you read boy? You're spouting illogical, idealistic nonsense.

In other news, Qatar have threatened to directly intervene militarily on behalf of a coalition of AL-Qaeda affiliates in Syria (otherwise known as the "moderate opposition"). I dare Qatar to do this. The moment they do the light of the sun will be blocked out by thousands of Iranian ballistic missiles, which would surely turn the dictator led Qatari Island into a giant bomb crater.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/qatar-threatens-military-intervention-in-syria-in-support-of-al-qaeda-rebels/5483674

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-34538583

His barbaric acts of indiscriminately targeting civilians have led many people to flock to these extreme groups, these people want revenge any way they can get it, it's also well known and documented that moderate groups fight both the Syrian regime and these extreme militants, isolating these people and keeping Syria divided is going to be the nail in his coffin.

 Also globalresearch is a known sham propaganda site ran by a lunatic named Michel Chossudovsky who thinks the United States is using weather control devices to cause climate change and tsunamis.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Vovka on October 23, 2015, 12:41:58 am
The masses who do not fall into this category will not give the Syrian government any credibility while Assad is in power, understandably because he has the blood of so many civilians on his hands. Instead of making compromises and passing off leadership to someone else he chose to fight two wars at once and label half of his own countrymen terrorists. That's a rather selfish decision to make.
just shut up already, and pretend that it all was trolling  :o
 on the last three pages you personally signed that you are a shithead)  a little more, and even Xant will stop support you, shouting "Murmillus u are retard hahahaha"  :o
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Torben on October 23, 2015, 12:57:18 am

convert my old friendets

I dont know what the fuck this is

holy fuck, what a freak :D 
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on October 23, 2015, 01:29:53 am
His barbaric acts of indiscriminately targeting civilians have led many people to flock to these extreme groups, these people want revenge any way they can get it, it's also well known and documented that moderate groups fight both the Syrian regime and these extreme militants, isolating these people and keeping Syria divided is going to be the nail in his coffin.

 Also globalresearch is a known sham propaganda site ran by a lunatic named Michel Chossudovsky who thinks the United States is using weather control devices to cause climate change and tsunamis.

And where do you get your information from, the so called "Syrian Observatory for Human Rights"? An organisation founded by a man living in a 2 bedroom house in Coventry England?

https://www.rt.com/news/317372-nimrod-kamer-syrian-observatory/
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Xant on October 23, 2015, 01:43:23 am
tl;dr Murmillus uses globalresearch, Russia Today and video games as his sources.  :lol: :lol: :lol:
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Grytviken on October 23, 2015, 02:12:10 am
And where do you get your information from, the so called "Syrian Observatory for Human Rights"? An organisation founded by a man living in a 2 bedroom house in Coventry England?

https://www.rt.com/news/317372-nimrod-kamer-syrian-observatory/

So all those high ranking Generals in the Syrian Army and government officials who joined the rebels after Assad started attacking civilians are terrorists?
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Kafein on October 24, 2015, 12:30:56 am
Like, seriously what's wrong with having two bedrooms?
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Vovka on October 24, 2015, 01:40:29 am
Like, seriously what's wrong with having two bedrooms?
The index value of the apartment  :o If  translate it into plain language for u: he has a herd of 200 sheep in))
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on October 24, 2015, 06:56:42 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfvwsR7qGys

Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Molly on October 24, 2015, 07:10:43 pm
zZz
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Vovka on October 24, 2015, 08:26:44 pm
wtf is dat?
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Tibe on October 24, 2015, 08:41:52 pm
He's not simply bombing his own people. He's bombing traitors who turned on his government, not because of his brutality but because of their adherence to a strict form of Islam which discriminates against other Islamic sects such as the Alawi sect he belongs to. He's also bombing tens of thousands of non Syrian citizens who were allowed to flood into his country through its vast and porous borders by regional actors with a vendetta against his government. Tens of thousands of fighters who have been armed to the teeth by some of the most powerful and richest nations on this planet, and even some who've been directly trained and funded by the CIA. Under such circumstances he's done bloody well and the Syrian people's support for him steadfast.

Ahh this brings back memories. Like the Ukrainian thread during its golden age. ".....directly trained and funded by the CIA". Those words are always beautiful.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Grytviken on October 24, 2015, 09:13:27 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfvwsR7qGys

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/10/russia-offers-free-syrian-army-air-strikes-isil-151024122412307.html

Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Xant on October 24, 2015, 10:52:29 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfvwsR7qGys
"Russia Insider", Murmillus' sources keep getting better.  :D
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Christo on October 24, 2015, 11:06:56 pm
Untergang 'parodies' are still a thing?

Wow.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Tibe on October 25, 2015, 08:23:09 am
No they are not. Murmillus just lives in a cave with his potato pc thats hooked up to one of those really old crt monitors that has stripes on it and turns your eyes red from just 1 hour of viewing.  :lol:

Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Grytviken on October 25, 2015, 08:34:58 am
http://www.dw.com/en/survey-leaves-no-doubt-syrians-are-fleeing-assad/a-18775789
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on October 26, 2015, 01:29:16 am
Those Downfall videos will never die.

On another note, if anyone is reading this with an attention span longer than 5 minutes have a watch of this debate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLKQGwVkczg

A debate between Christopher Hitchens and George Galloway about the Iraq war. Christopher Hitchens, like many of you smug fucks I take it, supported the Wests actions in Iraq and Afghanistan. More specifically in regards to Iraq believed removing Saddam was the best thing for the Iraqi people and something that was worth doing. However during Hitchens opening statement about Iraq and the removal of Saddam he admits that regional interferences were kept at bay largely by our occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan. He mentioned interfering actors such as Iran, the Wahhabists in Saudi-Arabia and others would that would vie for power and influence in Iraq now that Saddam was removed.

Christopher wasn't a stupid man, he was quite intelligent right? Yet he failed to see the irony in his statement that it was now the coalition that kept regional interference at bay, essentially replacing the job Saddam was doing all along. Now that the coalition are gone, (there's no way someone as "intelligent" as Christopher could not foresee our eventual departure) sectarian conflict has blown up and spiralled out of control. Iraqi's continue to be killed, and to kill. Iraqi territory has been taken by the Saudi proxies IS and major cities like Mosul lost. The Iraqi's now caught in cities like Mosul live under an oppression incomparable to the iron fist of a secular dictator. The Kurds are still being gassed, http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3281610/ISIS-butchers-probably-used-MUSTARD-GAS-against-Iraqi-Kurds-emerges-terror-group-begins-conscripting-boys-aged-14.html. And what's worse, this chaos and sectarianism fuelled terrorism has not been contained in Iraq it's spread across the region and across the continents.

Was the Iraqi invasion worth it? Was removing a horrible brutal human being and his depraved regime really worth it? Was doing the wrong thing for the right reasons by using lies really something which improved peoples lives and made the world a better place? I don't think it was worth it. I don't think the trillions wasted, hundreds of thousands killed, millions scattered was worth overthrowing a Middle-Eastern dictator. Yet it seems many of you in this thread alone would do it all over again. You should all smack your heads against a concrete wall and snap out of your fairy tales.

Repeating Iraq, repeating Libya, in Syria is a mistake and a fools errand. If Christopher was alive today I'd like to know what he'd say about our invasions and interventions now, was it really such a good idea? It's easy for an intelligent man to make a mistake and be wrong, as it's as even easier for the bunch of smarmy fools in this thread who's investment doesn't go much further than mocking people they don't agree with to make a mistake. The longer you keep supporting your flawed ideas and opinions in regards to Syria, Iraq and the region at large the more stupid you make yourselves look, even if you collectively disagree you've still been and will be proven wrong and can live in denial for as long as you want.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Xant on October 26, 2015, 02:07:53 am
Was the Iraqi invasion worth it? Was removing a horrible brutal human being and his depraved regime really worth it? Was doing the wrong thing for the right reasons by using lies really something which improved peoples lives and made the world a better place? I don't think it was worth it. I don't think the trillions wasted, hundreds of thousands killed, millions scattered was worth overthrowing a Middle-Eastern dictator. Yet it seems many of you in this thread alone would do it all over again. You should all smack your heads against a concrete wall and snap out of your fairy tales.
Hahahahahh  :lol:
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Tibe on October 26, 2015, 07:47:32 am
Was the Iraqi invasion worth it? Was removing a horrible brutal human being and his depraved regime really worth it? Was doing the wrong thing for the right reasons by using lies really something which improved peoples lives and made the world a better place? I don't think it was worth it. I don't think the trillions wasted, hundreds of thousands killed, millions scattered was worth overthrowing a Middle-Eastern dictator. Yet it seems many of you in this thread alone would do it all over again. You should all smack your heads against a concrete wall and snap out of your fairy tales.

I think what you dont seem to grasp is that it should be vital to kick dictators out of offices. Yeah, we know that kicking Saddam out didnt exactly make things bettter. But we know that now. Did we know that before? No we did not. Lets not also forget that Saddam invaded another country. Like he took Kuwait and the entire Arab League just watched with thumbs on their asses and did nothing while their "honorary member" was being pillaged and annexed. Exactly kicking a dictator out does not always automatically make a rich successful country. It does not work that way at all. With those dictators those countries will never improve and quite often their neibhours get bombed too. What you are claiming is that if the successrate is not 100% there is no point. Let all those dictators stay and rape their own people. "Currently those people are better off that way, they shouldnt resist and we should just watch". #Murmilluslogic
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Paul on October 26, 2015, 08:21:56 am
But many people knew that before. I remember interviews from German near east experts back in the day that predicted that removing one asshole will destabilise a region full of assholes. The very same logic was used to answer the question why "we" are not removing dictator X from a random African state when it was convenient. 

Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Tibe on October 26, 2015, 08:32:59 am
Well thats because an entire region is destabilized when we consider Africa. There really is no point to remove a warlord there, theres noone there who would be decent enough to replace him with. In the case with Middle-East half of it is stable and half of it isnt. Now thanks to isis more of it isnt really. There was a possibility for improvement. There are normal intellectuals to replace a dictator with. Atleast thats what I think. Thats why a lot of foreign powers have always been in the Middle-East playing "replace the government", because there has always been a chance to secure a strong stable foothold. Why do you think nobody really plays that game in Africa?
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Paul on October 26, 2015, 08:53:52 am
That game will be played in Africa.

Iraq was and is an ethnical powder keg because of it's demographic reality. People knew that before. German experts I wrote about knew this. The American experts knew this even better. They probably even warned their government to not try anything stupid. They still started a war for a number of reasons one can only speculate about. Making "the world a better place" maybe was on the list too, but I'm pretty sure you'd expect it to be on a way higher spot than I do.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on October 26, 2015, 09:31:17 am
I think what you dont seem to grasp is that it should be vital to kick dictators out of offices. Yeah, we know that kicking Saddam out didnt exactly make things bettter. But we know that now. Did we know that before? No we did not. Lets not also forget that Saddam invaded another country. Like he took Kuwait and the entire Arab League just watched with thumbs on their asses and did nothing while their "honorary member" was being pillaged and annexed. Exactly kicking a dictator out does not always automatically make a rich successful country. It does not work that way at all. With those dictators those countries will never improve and quite often their neibhours get bombed too. What you are claiming is that if the successrate is not 100% there is no point. Let all those dictators stay and rape their own people. "Currently those people are better off that way, they shouldnt resist and we should just watch". #Murmilluslogic

Our success rate is 0%, I think that speaks for itself. There are many dictatorships around that world that oppress their people to varying degrees. Some of these dictatorships are doing well economically, Saudi-Arabia to name an example, yet regardless its people are oppressed and suffer. But many people in Saudi-Arabia aren't suffering, aren't oppressed because they are actually proponents of the dictatorship that presides over them just as there was support for Saddam by Iraqi's in Iraq and for Gaddafi by Libyans in Libya. Essentially these nations were being run by their own people and in hindsight one can say for their own people. Now regional actors are moving in to have their slice of the pie and national unity in these nations is being torn apart while these regional actors and interferers attempt to do the same in Syria.

What we have to understand is that one, our own models of governance are not something to be looked up to have many flaws and far to go before they become something that other nations should emulate. Two that in many cases our form of governance is not suitable with the various ethnicities, cultures and politics around the globe. Three our governments almost always have a vested interest in the decisions they take, whether it be cheap political point scoring to securing resources multi-national corporations the lives of people is not likely to be high on our governments list of priorities.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on October 26, 2015, 09:33:00 am
But many people knew that before. I remember interviews from German near east experts back in the day that predicted that removing one asshole will destabilise a region full of assholes. The very same logic was used to answer the question why "we" are not removing dictator X from a random African state when it was convenient.

It only seems to be convenient to remove dictators if, A they don't play ball with us and B they are in fairly close proximity to Israel and C they have vast and easy to access energy reserves.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Tibe on October 26, 2015, 10:05:44 am
Our success rate is 0%, I think that speaks for itself...

Our success rate has been 0% in the past couple of decades or so and in the middle east. There are a fuckton of success-stories aswell and some revolutions had would have gone lot less bloody if it had Western support. I assume. Never can know those things...
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Vovka on October 26, 2015, 04:46:32 pm
There are a fuckton of success-stories aswell
Oh provide a list of three the most awesome success-stories pls
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Grytviken on October 26, 2015, 07:00:17 pm
Our success rate is 0%, I think that speaks for itself.

  "Our" success rate ? The world doesn't revolve around the US, this isn't "our" conflict to win.  They have to sort out their own internal cultural and religious conflicts, and they haven't.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Grytviken on October 26, 2015, 07:40:03 pm
Our success rate has been 0% in the past couple of decades or so and in the middle east. There are a fuckton of success-stories aswell and some revolutions had would have gone lot less bloody if it had Western support. I assume. Never can know those things...

  It's quite easy to jump on the anti-US circle jerk fest and cry about all the things that have gone wrong and ignore that Iraq is largely stable but their own government has a policy that brings about conflict with the Sunni's and vice versa, this the US has no control over, they can only be encouraged to work together to keep their territorial boarders intact.

Anyone who has an unrealistically high expectation for a solution in the Middle-East is going to be sorely disappointed. There are no solutions that will not bring about conflict in some form or another. The majority of Murmillius's claims are baseless,mere fiction and an over-exaggeration of events and problems that the US has no control over.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Lt_Anders on October 26, 2015, 09:01:08 pm
BUT!!!!

The CIA did it. :wink:
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Tibe on October 26, 2015, 09:36:22 pm
Oh provide a list of three the most awesome success-stories pls

Well the entire Eastern-EU for starters and South-Korea and even in some cases Japan and Vietnam. Does it really matter what I mention here and what my sources are? Your "CIA did it" mindset is so far rooted that you will inevitably just just claim it to be false anyway. Its not like its your fault really. Your brain just thinks that out of default. Human mind is a wierd place isnt it?
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Grytviken on October 26, 2015, 09:43:54 pm
Saudi-Arabia to name an example, yet regardless its people are oppressed and suffer. But many people in Saudi-Arabia aren't suffering

Sorry to burst your bubble, but Russia also supports Saudi Arabia and is trying their best to sell large contracts of weaponry to the country amid dropping weapon sales.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Vovka on October 27, 2015, 02:40:05 am
We used green screen but cruel evel russians did it for real! pure kitten even peed himself  :P
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on October 27, 2015, 03:05:21 pm
Sorry to burst your bubble, but Russia also supports Saudi Arabia and is trying their best to sell large contracts of weaponry to the country amid dropping weapon sales.

My country, the U.K helped found Saudi-Arabia. The international community, including Russia fail to hold Saudi-Arabia's sponsorship of terrorism to account. Saudi-Arabia being the founding member OPEC and having Russia by its oily balls, plus being a major weapons importer is probably why Russia haven't taken a firmer stance on Saudi-Arabia.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on October 27, 2015, 03:10:54 pm
  "Our" success rate ? The world doesn't revolve around the US, this isn't "our" conflict to win.  They have to sort out their own internal cultural and religious conflicts, and they haven't.

Our success rate infers our governments, or collectively NATO member states actions taken in the name of purported humanitarian or democratic reasons. Actions that include overt and covert subversion, corruption, and interference in the affairs of sovereign states.

I wouldn't ever say the same about nations engaged in conflict with one another if those conflicts had not included NATO member states providing assistance in all its forms to one or more parties in said conflict. I don't just say this shit expecting the U.S to take responsibility of the worlds problems, no. I say this shit expecting the U.S and its NATO allies take responsibility for the worlds problems they had a direct hand in helping to bring about.

If you trashed your neighbours house, a third party wouldn't expect your neighbour to pay for the damage and clean up the mess. Instead they would reasonably expect you to pay for the damage and clean it up.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: ecorcheur_brokar on October 27, 2015, 06:35:06 pm
Well the entire Eastern-EU for starters and South-Korea and even in some cases Japan and Vietnam. Does it really matter what I mention here and what my sources are? Your "CIA did it" mindset is so far rooted that you will inevitably just just claim it to be false anyway. Its not like its your fault really. Your brain just thinks that out of default. Human mind is a wierd place isnt it?

I'm not sure those bombed in Korea, Japan, Serbia, Vietnam would agree with you. The help sent in Haiti and in Nepal after the earthquake, in south-east asia after the tsunami, this are the real success-story of the West.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Lt_Anders on October 27, 2015, 07:30:28 pm
Our success rate infers our governments, or collectively NATO member states actions taken in the name of purported humanitarian or democratic reasons. Actions that include overt and covert subversion, corruption, and interference in the affairs of sovereign states.

I wouldn't ever say the same about nations engaged in conflict with one another if those conflicts had not included NATO member states providing assistance in all its forms to one or more parties in said conflict. I don't just say this shit expecting the U.S to take responsibility of the worlds problems, no. I say this shit expecting the U.S and its NATO allies take responsibility for the worlds problems they had a direct hand in helping to bring about.

If you trashed your neighbours house, a third party wouldn't expect your neighbour to pay for the damage and clean up the mess. Instead they would reasonably expect you to pay for the damage and clean it up.

All NATO/US/NWO/"Tinfoil hat" problems. They didn't have a choice, they had mind control from NATO/CIA/US/BILDERBURG/OTHER.(Pick your chosen organization)
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Grytviken on October 27, 2015, 08:09:10 pm
My country, the U.K helped found Saudi-Arabia. The international community, including Russia fail to hold Saudi-Arabia's sponsorship of terrorism to account. Saudi-Arabia being the founding member OPEC and having Russia by its oily balls, plus being a major weapons importer is probably why Russia haven't taken a firmer stance on Saudi-Arabia.

    Saudi Arabia has extensively fought against these same groups you talk about within their country for years, these same groups want them dead and gone as well. The religion itself is a problem I agree, the interpretation of the base of this ideology is used as a recruiting tool for these terrorist groups, not the state of Saudi Arabia itself. Thousands of people have been arrested or killed in Saudi Arabia in government operations to preemptively stop these groups from organizing to carry out attacks within Saudi Arabia and elsewhere.


Our success rate infers our governments, or collectively NATO member states actions taken in the name of purported humanitarian or democratic reasons. Actions that include overt and covert subversion, corruption, and interference in the affairs of sovereign states.

I wouldn't ever say the same about nations engaged in conflict with one another if those conflicts had not included NATO member states providing assistance in all its forms to one or more parties in said conflict. I don't just say this shit expecting the U.S to take responsibility of the worlds problems, no. I say this shit expecting the U.S and its NATO allies take responsibility for the worlds problems they had a direct hand in helping to bring about.

If you trashed your neighbours house, a third party wouldn't expect your neighbour to pay for the damage and clean up the mess. Instead they would reasonably expect you to pay for the damage and clean it up.

   The root of the problem is their ethnic/religious civil war. Encouraging them to run a secular government to keep their boarders and resources intact is not some nefarious covert operation, it's common sense and necessary for the state's survival. Corruption is what has plagued the Iraqi government, it is also what became a rallying point for their enemies. This is why the US has distanced itself from the new Iraqi government leaving them to deal with their own problems.
 
     
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Grytviken on October 27, 2015, 08:40:43 pm
I'm not sure those bombed in Korea, Japan, Serbia, Vietnam would agree with you. The help sent in Haiti and in Nepal after the earthquake, in south-east asia after the tsunami, this are the real success-story of the West.

  Vietnam and Japan now have good relations with the US and much reconciliation has taken place from all sides. South Korea is one of the most prosperous regions in Asia while North Korea is a giant insane asylum and playground for a lunatic. The conflict with Serbia was a response to genocide and mass murder.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Tibe on October 27, 2015, 08:48:04 pm
I'm not sure those bombed in Korea, Japan, Serbia, Vietnam would agree with you....

Yet all of them have remarkably good relations with the West. SKorea is one of the most advanced countries on Earth. NK hates everybody and is a gigantic prisonnation with slavery(partially thanks to communism btw). Japan before WW2 was a massive warriornation, that strongly supported imperialism and violent warfare. Vietnam is doing quite well aswell these days. They dont hold any grudges and their country is advancing in a pretty good state, as far as ive seen. Serbias issue is that the whole Balkanthing is kinda messed up due to entirely different things unrelated to the West or US at all. Serbs(generally) have nothing against the West.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Lt_Anders on October 28, 2015, 12:13:33 am
   The root of the problem is their ethnic/religious civil war. Encouraging them to run a secular government to keep their boarders and resources intact is not some nefarious covert operation, it's common sense and necessary for the state's survival. Corruption is what has plagued the Iraqi government, it is also what became a rallying point for their enemies. This is why the US has distanced itself from the new Iraqi government leaving them to deal with their own problems.

No. If it was, we'd have left Afghanistan years ago. That place is 10X worse than Iraq. We distance ourselves cause our presdent Blundered with the troop withdrawl(to "keep" his promise). That's why he went back on his promise to remove soldiers from Afghanistan, cause if he did, it'd be a massive vacuum.

All for the sake of Politics.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Vovka on October 28, 2015, 08:13:48 am
That place is 10X worse than Iraq.
but no Communist! success-story at its best
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Grytviken on October 28, 2015, 08:31:45 am
No. If it was, we'd have left Afghanistan years ago. That place is 10X worse than Iraq. We distance ourselves cause our presdent Blundered with the troop withdrawl(to "keep" his promise). That's why he went back on his promise to remove soldiers from Afghanistan, cause if he did, it'd be a massive vacuum.

All for the sake of Politics.

 Maliki refused to grant US  troops immunity to appease his parliament, which they regretted after the withdrawal. Different circumstances.   
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Grytviken on October 28, 2015, 08:35:12 am
but no Communist! success-story at its best

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Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Vovka on October 28, 2015, 09:28:38 am
How to make evereone happy "west edition"
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Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: ecorcheur_brokar on October 28, 2015, 11:17:30 am
I wouldn't call it a success just because people of this generation don't hold grudge on each other.

einstein was so great and successfull! Jews don't hold grudge on Germany anymore.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Tibe on October 28, 2015, 07:05:56 pm
Dumbass, I wrote why they are succesful, beond holding a grudge. Im not gonna quote my own posts just because you refuse to scroll up and read, before you post a reply. And the chocolate chip cookie einstein example in a post is always a sign of someone too desperate to trying to make a counter-point.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: ecorcheur_brokar on October 28, 2015, 07:41:42 pm
Vietnam won the war so they did as they pleased after it, so all the massacre were done for nothing, as usual when you go against the will of the majority.

Japan was an imperialist country just like Western power (10 millions killed). 29 millions indians were killed by british empire, and a complete wipe-out of native indians by British and Spanish empires.

Balkan situation is still not resolved.

Anyway, I am not saying nothing should be done to prevent genocide. My problems is with the means used to "resolve", aka massive bombing on civilians.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Grytviken on October 28, 2015, 08:45:21 pm
How to make evereone happy "west edition"

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Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Grytviken on October 28, 2015, 08:51:19 pm
Vietnam won the war so they did as they pleased after it, so all the massacre were done for nothing, as usual when you go against the will of the majority.

Japan was an imperialist country just like Western power (10 millions killed). 29 millions indians were killed by british empire, and a complete wipe-out of native indians by British and Spanish empires.

Balkan situation is still not resolved.

Anyway, I am not saying nothing should be done to prevent genocide. My problems is with the means used to "resolve", aka massive bombing on civilians.

  Let's compare disease and biological immunizes in the 1600's and 1700's to 20th century genocide. Why don't we bring Ghengis Khan into this while we are at it lmao.

  Who is mass bombing civilians to prevent genocide?

Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Tibe on October 29, 2015, 06:34:10 am
Anyway, I am not saying nothing should be done to prevent genocide. My problems is with the means used to "resolve", aka massive bombing on civilians.

Nobodys mass bombing any civilians. Thats just a load of garbage.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Vovka on October 29, 2015, 10:31:21 am
Nobodys mass bombing any civilians. Thats just a load of garbage.
funny to hear that from a such biological waste like u  :P
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Oberyn on October 29, 2015, 01:44:13 pm
Just pointing out again that the Al Sauds are actually the moderate, modernist faction of Saudi Arabia, as hilarious as that seems to us. This is what their main political/military opponents for control of the region were, and their legacy as military enforcers and the backbone of Saudi military forces endures to this day: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ikhwan

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on October 29, 2015, 02:37:42 pm
To summarise. We have some posters on this thread who are proponents and apologists of the Western imperialism and Western backed insurgencies that have directly and indirectly led to the destabilisation of whole regions in the world, which has been directly and indirectly responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of civilians and destruction of their nations. Western imperialism that's propped up and aligned itself with brutal dictatorships... Apparently all because they are militarily engaging brutal dictatorships either not aligned with the West or aligned with Russia.

These posters don't seem to understand or want to acknowledge the consequences behind our governments direct and indirect actions and instead run off on emotional hypothesis' or repeat propagandised points repeated by our mainstream media to excuse their support of insurgents and brutal dictatorial regimes our governments are aligned with and assist. This is regardless of our governments poor track record and history of failure in this area and their repeated breaches of international law and the amount of national treasure and human lives wasted on these endeavours, when this money could have been better spent.

National interest and war are dirty games to be played, at least the Russian establishment is honest when discussing its motives behind its actions and at least the Russian establishment have made attempts to comply with international law when NATO states pretend it doesn't exist when they want, and then cite international law when it suits them. Like the U.S's recent criticism of the Chinese government's actions in the South China Sea for example.

The validity and legitimacy of international laws and norms are made or broken depending on the consistency on which they're applied. If the most powerful and military aggressive nation and alliance on earth are not subject to the application of these laws, (The U.S/NATO) then nations like Russia and China will not longer be subject to them either, and we can  all then return to the laws of the jungle and the U.N like the League of Nations will be consigned to history.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Oberyn on October 29, 2015, 03:21:48 pm
International laws and norms, especially when embodied in the UN, have always been laughably impotent and useless. You're the one living in a fantasy if you think we're "returning" to the "laws of the jungle", aka realpolitiks. It never, ever left. You're also retarded if you think any of the main players are "honest" in any of the high-minded, morally sanctioned bullshit they put out on a regular basis. Take the gigantic wooden plank out of your own fucking eye before calling others blind, lol Russian establishment is "honest" about it's motives, go fuck yourself you dumb prick. Poor wittle Russia trying to follow international laws out of good faith, unlike those evil NATO imperialists merely exploiting them for their own ends, god you are a hypocritical moron.

This destabilization in the middle east supposedly caused by NATO meddling won't end until all the wahhabist and salafist bleeding sores all over the muslim world are finally drained of their life giving fluids, i.e their natural resources. Best course of action is to make them obsolete through technology, as much as possible. Where you and I differ is that you think that NATO and the US specifically is the one pulling the strings, the ones who have the Gulf states as outright puppets in their grand machinations. I see them as powerful political entities in their own right, with their own goals and enemies. The world economy is dependent on a steady, continously stable world market for oil and gas for...well, everything. The whole delicate, ephemereal web of economic exchanges crumbles without it. Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states, and indirectly OPEC through it, have disproportionate political and diplomatic power for only one reason. They have absolutely nothing at all to offer to the world except that one thing. They're the "dealers" and the rest of the developped world are the junkies. Just look at when interests of NATO and interests of these wahhabist bundle of stickss clash, who is it that gives way? Who has more to gain from the "alliance"? These backwards cunts are holding the entire world economy hostage, something that was made clear as long ago as the 70's, when this "alliance" first started gaining real traction.


Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: ecorcheur_brokar on October 29, 2015, 03:53:00 pm
Let's compare disease and biological immunizes in the 1600's and 1700's to 20th century genocide. Why don't we bring Ghengis Khan into this while we are at it lmao.

  Who is mass bombing civilians to prevent genocide?
Yeah surely the genocide of native indians were just an incident... Anyway, that's not the topic and Western colonial empires killed more than Japan without bringing native indians.

War on Japan: Two atomic bombs on cities, plus 900'000 civil killed by firebombing directly aimed at cities. For only 100'000 soldiers killed.
Korean war: 635 tons of bombs including 32'000 tons of napalm. All major city in north Korea were almost completely erased.
(click to show/hide)
Vietnam war: Napalm bomb and dumb bomb were used massively,  7,662,000 tons were dropped on Vietnam and Cambodgia. Between 627,000 and 2,000,000 civilian were killed during the Vietnam war.

I can not consider so many civil victims a success.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on October 29, 2015, 04:02:22 pm
International laws and norms, especially when embodied in the UN, have always been laughably impotent and useless. You're the one living in a fantasy if you think we're "returning" to the "laws of the jungle", aka realpolitiks. It never, ever left. You're also retarded if you think any of the main players are "honest" in any of the high-minded, morally sanctioned bullshit they put out on a regular basis. Take the gigantic wooden plank out of your own fucking eye before calling others blind, lol Russian establishment is "honest" about it's motives, go fuck yourself you dumb prick. Poor wittle Russia trying to follow international laws out of good faith, unlike those evil NATO imperialists merely exploiting them for their own ends, god you are a hypocritical moron.

This destabilization in the middle east supposedly caused by NATO meddling won't end until all the wahhabist and salafist bleeding sores all over the muslim world are finally drained of their life giving fluids, i.e their natural resources. Best course of action is to make them obsolete through technology, as much as possible. Where you and I differ is that you think that NATO and the US specifically is the one pulling the strings, the ones who have the Gulf states as outright puppets in their grand machinations. I see them as powerful political entities in their own right, with their own goals and enemies. The world economy is dependent on a steady, continously stable world market for oil and gas for...well, everything. The whole delicate, ephemereal web of economic exchanges crumbles without it. Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states, and indirectly OPEC through it, have disproportionate political and diplomatic power for only one reason. They have absolutely nothing at all to offer to the world except that one thing. They're the "dealers" and the rest of the developped world are the junkies. Just look at when interests of NATO and interests of these wahhabist bundle of stickss clash, who is it that gives way? Who has more to gain from the "alliance"? These backwards cunts are holding the entire world economy hostage, something that was made clear as long ago as the 70's, when this "alliance" first started gaining real traction.

I've never called the Russian establishment angels, but they've stated their motives and their motives are transparent and backed by its actions. Cite one example where this is NOT the case. I'll take the plank out of my arse when you can give me one good reason to do so. I'm not a hypocrite in this respect. In another, everyone is including yourself. By the way, I agree with you on the U.N it is useless impotent and inconsistent and when I talk about honesty I'm talking about stated goals and motives being consistent with their actions and Russia's actions are consistent with their stated motives where as the Wests are not.

It's a bit rich for you to call me a dumb prick without adequately refuting my points and merely stating what I already know to be. In-fact your aggressive tone implies you're the one with the plank up his arse. (Probably a Russian plank.) So maybe you should remove your plank first, that is unless you enjoy it and in that case what ever floats your boat brah.

Now that I've destroyed your futile rebuke without needing to replicate your aggressive belligerent tone, I think it's fair to say.. I win.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Paul on October 29, 2015, 05:30:48 pm
To summarise. We have some posters on this thread who are proponents and apologists of the Western imperialism and Western backed insurgencies that have directly and indirectly led to the destabilisation of whole regions in the world, which has been directly and indirectly responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of civilians and destruction of their nations. Western imperialism that's propped up and aligned itself with brutal dictatorships... Apparently all because they are militarily engaging brutal dictatorships either not aligned with the West or aligned with Russia.

These posters don't seem to understand or want to acknowledge the consequences behind our governments direct and indirect actions and instead run off on emotional hypothesis' or repeat propagandised points repeated by our mainstream media to excuse their support of insurgents and brutal dictatorial regimes our governments are aligned with and assist. This is regardless of our governments poor track record and history of failure in this area and their repeated breaches of international law and the amount of national treasure and human lives wasted on these endeavours, when this money could have been better spent.

National interest and war are dirty games to be played, at least the Russian establishment is honest when discussing its motives behind its actions and at least the Russian establishment have made attempts to comply with international law when NATO states pretend it doesn't exist when they want, and then cite international law when it suits them. Like the U.S's recent criticism of the Chinese government's actions in the South China Sea for example.

The validity and legitimacy of international laws and norms are made or broken depending on the consistency on which they're applied. If the most powerful and military aggressive nation and alliance on earth are not subject to the application of these laws, (The U.S/NATO) then nations like Russia and China will not longer be subject to them either, and we can  all then return to the laws of the jungle and the U.N like the League of Nations will be consigned to history.

Fifty cent well earned.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Oberyn on October 29, 2015, 05:33:56 pm
Ukraine is probably the most salient example. You realize all the russian state owned media have claimed a bewildering amount of different, often contradictory reasons for their actions there? From the typical "They are chocolate chip cookies racist trying to exterminate russians", to geopolitical and military arguements for russian access to the black sea, to irrenditist claims that the land is and always has been russian, that Ukraine and ukrainian are artificially constructed identities fomented by evil West to destroy Russia, to etc, etc, all parroted from government officials as well. If the constant and repeated refusal to even aknowledge they were even doing anything there at all wasn't a hint. Tell me Murm, you still think russian army isn't involved? After all, clear and transparent honest russian government said so. You stupid fucking troll.
You are a hypocrite, there are absolutely no major players on the planet that are "clear and transparent" about their actions, especially not Russia. The resources and bureaucracy they put into controlling their own media should make that obvious, but you are a wilfully blind idiot cunt. Fucking KGB propaganda expert is literally their unelected dictator for life, but yeah brah I'm sure the russian government is on the up and up.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Xant on October 29, 2015, 06:28:18 pm
To summarise. We have some posters on this thread who are proponents and apologists of the Western imperialism and Western backed insurgencies that have directly and indirectly led to the destabilisation of whole regions in the world, which has been directly and indirectly responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of civilians and destruction of their nations. Western imperialism that's propped up and aligned itself with brutal dictatorships... Apparently all because they are militarily engaging brutal dictatorships either not aligned with the West or aligned with Russia.

These posters don't seem to understand or want to acknowledge the consequences behind our governments direct and indirect actions and instead run off on emotional hypothesis' or repeat propagandised points repeated by our mainstream media to excuse their support of insurgents and brutal dictatorial regimes our governments are aligned with and assist. This is regardless of our governments poor track record and history of failure in this area and their repeated breaches of international law and the amount of national treasure and human lives wasted on these endeavours, when this money could have been better spent.

National interest and war are dirty games to be played, at least the Russian establishment is honest when discussing its motives behind its actions and at least the Russian establishment have made attempts to comply with international law when NATO states pretend it doesn't exist when they want, and then cite international law when it suits them. Like the U.S's recent criticism of the Chinese government's actions in the South China Sea for example.

The validity and legitimacy of international laws and norms are made or broken depending on the consistency on which they're applied. If the most powerful and military aggressive nation and alliance on earth are not subject to the application of these laws, (The U.S/NATO) then nations like Russia and China will not longer be subject to them either, and we can  all then return to the laws of the jungle and the U.N like the League of Nations will be consigned to history.

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Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Grytviken on October 29, 2015, 06:42:22 pm
Yeah surely the genocide of native indians were just an incident... Anyway, that's not the topic and Western colonial empires killed more than Japan without bringing native indians.

War on Japan: Two atomic bombs on cities, plus 900'000 civil killed by firebombing directly aimed at cities. For only 100'000 soldiers killed.
Korean war: 635 tons of bombs including 32'000 tons of napalm. All major city in north Korea were almost completely erased.
(click to show/hide)
Vietnam war: Napalm bomb and dumb bomb were used massively,  7,662,000 tons were dropped on Vietnam and Cambodgia. Between 627,000 and 2,000,000 civilian were killed during the Vietnam war.

I can not consider so many civil victims a success.


Industry, depots, railroads, airports, ports, infrastructure are fair game during war. Japan wanted to fight an unconventional war with us from the start by attacking before declaring war. In Korea 1.3 million Chinese launched a major offensive and much of the country was destroyed dislodging them. In Vietnam the war was sporadic and everywhere, there were no front lines.

Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on October 29, 2015, 06:53:01 pm
Ukraine is probably the most salient example. You realize all the russian state owned media have claimed a bewildering amount of different, often contradictory reasons for their actions there? From the typical "They are chocolate chip cookies racist trying to exterminate russians", to geopolitical and military arguements for russian access to the black sea, to irrenditist claims that the land is and always has been russian, that Ukraine and ukrainian are artificially constructed identities fomented by evil West to destroy Russia, to etc, etc, all parroted from government officials as well. If the constant and repeated refusal to even aknowledge they were even doing anything there at all wasn't a hint. Tell me Murm, you still think russian army isn't involved? After all, clear and transparent honest russian government said so. You stupid fucking troll.
You are a hypocrite, there are absolutely no major players on the planet that are "clear and transparent" about their actions, especially not Russia. The resources and bureaucracy they put into controlling their own media should make that obvious, but you are a wilfully blind idiot cunt. Fucking KGB propaganda expert is literally their unelected dictator for life, but yeah brah I'm sure the russian government is on the up and up.

Ah I thought you had that old bone lurking in your verbal garbage.

The Russian establishment considered the Western backed undemocratic overthrow of the Ukrainian government in 2014 its red line being crossed, it considered NATO advancing once again right up towards Russia's border and so the Russian establishment acted accordingly. So they stated their perspective/outlook and then acted on it. That's honesty. You can't distinguish between states motives/intentions and actions can you? Russia has not at an official capacity been involved in Ukraine. You can't refute this statement because it's true. I honestly believe the Russian state has been involved in assisting the separatists but again that's not the same as an officially government mandated action using conventional forces, as they had done so in Georgia in response to the Georgian governments aggression towards the breakaway regions there.

Then we take Syria into consideration. Russia have stated they are targeting terrorists, extremists. The Russian establishment have openly attempted try to co-ordinate with the West and has purportedly even offered to assist the so called moderate opposition in their fight against ISIS but before Russia can even try to help it must first know who the moderate opposition are.. The West who've been throwing arms and money into the conflict since day one have failed to even state who or where the moderate opposition are and exist. From this response Russia's deduced that the Al-Qaeda linked rebels as well as IS are fair game. So again Russia has stated a position and then acted upon it at a level of transparency the West have failed to replicate even in the U.S with America's supposed most transparent president ever.. (So said Obama..)..
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Grytviken on October 29, 2015, 07:04:20 pm
So again Russia has stated a position and then acted upon it at a level of transparency the West have failed to replicate even in the U.S with America's supposed most transparent president ever.. (So said Obama..)..

  The only thing transparent about Russian intervention is that they are flying air support directly for Assad's ground forces targeting positions that are well-known to be manned by moderate opposition forces, not terrorist groups. Russia is not acting as a mutual beneficiary for the region. The coalition, Iraqi Army and Kurdish forces have already thwarted ISIS movement and expansion, they know exactly where they are, and know exactly what Russia is up to. 

 Saying and doing are two completely different things, Russia is known for saying alot of things and doing the opposite. Russia's definition of a terrorist is anyone who opposed the Assad regime.

  Why would we share intel with Russians when they are not willing to join with the 80 other countries who already have a well-established coalition that has kept ISIS in check?
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Tibe on October 29, 2015, 07:16:59 pm
It's a bit rich for you to call me a dumb prick without adequately refuting my points....

...Its just not worth it man. You are like Tovi all over again.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Grytviken on October 29, 2015, 07:24:56 pm
...Its just not worth it man. You are like Tovi all over again.

 It doesn't take a  genius to know that all the Russian info is pure propaganda. We have satellite imagery proving they are not bombing ISIS positions, after realizing this they changed their tune and recognized the FSA and offered their help lol.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Oberyn on October 29, 2015, 07:29:18 pm
So when the russian government lies and misrepresents and obfuscates, it's completely different and understandable, because only an idiot could take their statements at face value. Basically you expect Russia to do this and find it completely understandable. Don't worry, so does everyone else on the planet. The whole point is that their stated declarations and intentions don't match up with their actions. That is practically the definition of dishonesty, and yes it's common in international politics, holy mother Russia and glorious Leader Putin are not exempt.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Grytviken on October 29, 2015, 07:36:46 pm
Things couldn't have gone worse for Russian interests in the region. Assad was about to capitulate, his front lines in the capital Damascus were on the verge of collapsing, ISIS is already disintegrating from an Iraqi Army and Kurdish offensive supported by coalition airstrikes. They put their stake in to try and establish a perimeter of control to prop up Assad in the hopes of more legitimacy for Assad if it comes down to a diplomatic settlement in the region. They desperately want to create leverage for the Assad regime to protect their own interests.

  Now they realize this was probably a dumb move that requires much more investment then they were willing to put in, and are slowly rewinding all their lies.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Oberyn on October 29, 2015, 07:47:42 pm
I actually tend to agree that in this case Assad is vastly better than the alternative. Even the US has stopped pretending there is such a thing as a sizeable or influential "moderate" group. This is one brutal dictator I think the West should've continued to tolerate. And it's apparently one brutal dictator Murm is completely fine with being supported by outside influence. I'm sure Murm wouldn't have been masturbating about how Assad is nothing but a western puppet opressing his own people a few years ago when that's what Assad still was. Please Murm, tell me more about how when the evil, evil west supports dictators it's because they're literally jacking off Satan, but when noble Russia does it its because it is the best and most rational decision and is never, ever wreathed in a bunch of bullshit propaganda and moral justifications.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Vovka on October 29, 2015, 08:48:11 pm
  The only thing transparent about Russian intervention is that they are flying air support directly for Assad's ground forces targeting positions that are well-known to be manned by moderate opposition forces, not terrorist groups. Russia is not acting as a mutual beneficiary for the region. The coalition, Iraqi Army and Kurdish forces have already thwarted ISIS movement and expansion, they know exactly where they are, and know exactly what Russia is up to. 
 Saying and doing are two completely different things, Russia is known for saying alot of things and doing the opposite. Russia's definition of a terrorist is anyone who opposed the Assad regime.
  Why would we share intel with Russians when they are not willing to join with the 80 other countries who already have a well-established coalition that has kept ISIS in check?
Its like moderate chechen separatist who took hostage pregnant women and children for the sake of prevailing the democracy.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Xant on October 29, 2015, 09:31:37 pm
Where did he find the pregnant children?
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Grytviken on October 29, 2015, 10:19:03 pm
Its like moderate chechen separatist who took hostage pregnant women and children for the sake of prevailing the democracy.

Captain Jack says kill them all, you have his seal of approval. Save the pregnant children.

Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Vovka on October 29, 2015, 10:19:30 pm
Where did he find the pregnant children?
common shit in muslim countries
you know, not all have first sex is 30 like u  :P
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Xant on October 29, 2015, 11:46:18 pm
common shit in muslim countries
you know, not all have first sex is 30 like u  :P
Why am I not surprised you don't know what a "child" means?
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on October 29, 2015, 11:46:39 pm
So when the russian government lies and misrepresents and obfuscates, it's completely different and understandable, because only an idiot could take their statements at face value. Basically you expect Russia to do this and find it completely understandable. Don't worry, so does everyone else on the planet. The whole point is that their stated declarations and intentions don't match up with their actions. That is practically the definition of dishonesty, and yes it's common in international politics, holy mother Russia and glorious Leader Putin are not exempt.

You underestimate me. I am not a naïve fool brainwashed by Russian media, I'm a consumer of media from multiple mainstream and non-mainstream sources, a selection across the spectrum of media types and then make my own mind up. I backed Russia's point of view on Libya and they were right. I sympathise with Russia's national security interests and concerns in regards to the security of its borders and the capability of its nuclear deterrence. These sympathies are reinforced  when considering Russia is faced with a belligerent NATO which has attacked, invaded and overthrown multiple nations in this century alone while flouting international law in the process of doing so.

I understand that the Russian government lies and I acknowledge it. There is no such thing as a 100% honest government because there's no such thing as a 100% honest human being. When Putin states that Russia has had no military involvement in Ukraine I suspect he refers to military capacity based on a policy officially  mandated by the Russian parliament and people. Where as what is more likely to be the case is that Russian soldiers have been encouraged to volunteer in East Ukraine in support of the separatists with financial incentives but this in itself is far short of the Russian invasion Poroshenko and the Western media purported to be taking place and what further compounds this perspective is the lack of evidence of said invasion. If you believe Russia have "invaded Ukraine" you're every bit the idiot and dumbfuck you accuse me of being.

On the flip side the apparent vitriol you've directed at me because of my admitted sympathies with some of the Russian establishments actions and views seems to highlight a weakness in your perspective or judgement, not mine.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on October 30, 2015, 12:01:27 am
It doesn't take a  genius to know that all the Russian info is pure propaganda. We have satellite imagery proving they are not bombing ISIS positions, after realizing this they changed their tune and recognized the FSA and offered their help lol.

I don't write off all of the information I gather from the mainstream media, the way you completely write off all information that comes out of the Russian media or establishment. Your perspective in this matter is clearly only seen through one eye with the other shut. Where as I'm using both of my eyes, both sides of my brain to come to my conclusions.

Clearly your half baked perspective, like others on this thread has been reinforced by a lifetime of direct and subtle indoctrination and propaganda. When you and those who support your views make your comments you do so ignorantly and equipped with only one side of the information being peddled in the on-going information war between Russia and NATO states and NATO allies. There are lies and propaganda being peddled on both sides but I'm trying my best to sift through the crap coming from both sides and as a result I'm going to arrogantly state that I'm clearly more informed on these geopolitical events and have a greater understanding of them than the majority of my opponents here.

You're like small dogs yapping away, all noise no substance. Try a different strategy.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Xant on October 30, 2015, 12:22:23 am
Yes, you must do your best to impress Murmillus! It is important that he is impressed!!!
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on October 30, 2015, 12:36:31 am
WOOF WOOF WOOF WOF yap WOOF WOOF!!!
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Xant on October 30, 2015, 12:58:46 am
#gottem #madburn #kony2012
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Grytviken on October 30, 2015, 01:06:18 am
I don't write off all of the information I gather from the mainstream media, the way you completely write off all information that comes out of the Russian media or establishment. Your perspective in this matter is clearly only seen through one eye with the other shut.

  No point in reading or listening to neo-soviet idiocy from a state-funded and regulated news source. Russians live in a world of self-deception, illusion, ignorance and lies. Maybe there are some major things missing in translation on RT news, but it is maybe 10% fact and 90% manipulation of those facts to suit their own agenda, much like all of your points.

 Show me a Russian news agency that is openly critical of Putin, Mededev and the Russian government.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on October 30, 2015, 01:37:14 am
  No point in reading or listening to neo-soviet idiocy from a state-funded and regulated news source. Russians live in a world of self-deception, illusion, ignorance and lies. Maybe there are some major things missing in translation on RT news, but it is maybe 10% fact and 90% manipulation of those facts to suit their own agenda, much like all of your points.

 Show me a Russian news agency that is openly critical of Putin and the Russian government.

Neo-soviet? You clearly have no idea. In my view RT's material is based on 80% truth or a perspective of truth and 20% spin. Of course it has an agenda and of course some of its content could be construed as propaganda. RT's main fault to many critics is its lack of criticism towards the Russian establishment and government, but I don't watch RT to learn about the problems in Russia. I watch it to learn about the problems elsewhere in the world, to try to understand the perspective of the Russian establishment and to a more limited extent the Russian people and its justifications and purported reasons behind the Russian establishments actions. I can't fault the channel for having is say, or the Russian establishment for having its say through the channel by proxy. If it makes sense, then it makes sense. I'm sorry I don't just simply buy into the same bullshit as you or write media off based purely on the channels country of origin. I'm not an actual racist you know.

If RT was anything like FOX news I'd forgive you for making such a point, but I'm afraid your point doesn't stick and has little truth and your judgement little experience on what you judge. I actually watched some FOX news before writing it off, I didn't write it off for being American.

Btw here's a video purporting to show good quality recent footage from Syria in different parts from Homs to Damascus Suburbs, rural Damascus, Latakia and Idlib.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdM6V66P73I#t=243
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Vovka on October 30, 2015, 07:39:59 am
  No point in reading or listening to neo-soviet idiocy from a state-funded and regulated news source. Russians live in a world of self-deception, illusion, ignorance and lies. Maybe there are some major things missing in translation on RT news, but it is maybe 10% fact and 90% manipulation of those facts to suit their own agenda, much like all of your points.

 Show me a Russian news agency that is openly critical of Putin, Mededev and the Russian government.
  There are at least three, or six of them ) have fun  :P
https://translate.google.ru/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=ru&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fruxpert.ru%2F%25D0%25A0%25D1%2583%25D1%2581%25D0%25BE%25D1%2584%25D0%25BE%25D0%25B1%25D1%2581%25D0%25BA%25D0%25B8%25D0%25B5_%25D1%2581%25D0%25BE%25D0%25BE%25D0%25B1%25D1%2589%25D0%25B5%25D1%2581%25D1%2582%25D0%25B2%25D0%25B0_%25D0%25B8_%25D0%25A1%25D0%259C%25D0%2598&edit-text=
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Tibe on October 30, 2015, 07:45:54 am
I don't write off all of the information I gather from the mainstream media, the way you completely write off all information that comes out of the Russian media or establishment. Your perspective in this matter is clearly only seen through one eye with the other shut. Where as I'm using both of my eyes, both sides of my brain to come to my conclusions.

Like hell you are. You are like the blindest person here. You are another one of those typical Russian propagaded dudes who thinks he has the whole "US imperialistic hegemony" figured out and has a very good worldview. Who watches calmly and thinks he sees the real "truth". Yet your fucked up world view isnt basically shared by anyone on the planet but Russians who watch russian media. And your worldview is something that every Kremlin internettrolls spread for money and claim as "truth". Does that not even make you doubt a little bit that you are a little off course?

You see the big problem here is that all these "Western imperialist actions", you base your worldviews on, can only be detected if one has inside-info. Do you have inside info? No? Where did you get that info than? Russian media? Oh okay...Because we dont base our worldviews on these heavy assumptions like you do. We may see the perspective through only one eye and you with 2, but your second eye is fucking fake.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on October 30, 2015, 09:37:19 am
Like hell you are. You are like the blindest person here. You are another one of those typical Russian propagaded dudes who thinks he has the whole "US imperialistic hegemony" figured out and has a very good worldview. Who watches calmly and thinks he sees the real "truth". Yet your fucked up world view isnt basically shared by anyone on the planet but Russians who watch russian media. And your worldview is something that every Kremlin internettrolls spread for money and claim as "truth". Does that not even make you doubt a little bit that you are a little off course?

You see the big problem here is that all these "Western imperialist actions", you base your worldviews on, can only be detected if one has inside-info. Do you have inside info? No? Where did you get that info than? Russian media? Oh okay...Because we dont base our worldviews on these heavy assumptions like you do. We may see the perspective through only one eye and you with 2, but your second eye is fucking fake.

Even Western analysts agree that NATO states have breached and disregarded international law and agree that Western actions in the ME have made things worse. But I guess I'm just a brainwashed Russian troll right? You only wish I were, it's the only pathetic conclusion someone of your limited intellectual ability is able to come to..

Can't win an argument or debate? Just start throwing names and accusations at the person instead of refuting their points.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Molly on October 30, 2015, 10:00:26 am
[...]In my view RT's material is based on 80% truth or a perspective of truth and 20% spin.[...]
:lol:
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: oerput on October 30, 2015, 12:22:28 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ii8Vy8vWgY
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on October 30, 2015, 04:04:19 pm
:lol:

Refute it.

Otherwise the joke's on you.

If RT's reports are largely reports on what many other outlets including Western outlets have reported are they all lying or, what? RT does invite analysts on to its channel to provide their perspective on geopolitical events including what's happening in Syria. Many of these analysts have been covering their subject matter for years and are experts in their own right in the field they specialise in and many of them are analysts from the West NOT Russia. I guess they must be lying too and you, Tibe and whoever know better. I guess when RT reports on something, such as the U.S arming and funding jihadi's in Syria only for the U.S to admit that it's doing so years/months later I guess RT is lying again.. Oh the joke's on you Molly.

There are always agendas afoot, but I for one oppose my current and past governments actions in the Middle-East. You and others supporting your perspective buy in to our own politicians spin about wanting to help people and bomb people for "humanitarian purposes", that's fucking right, BOMB people for HUMANITARIAN reasons. Because we all know bombing is a humanitarian action right? We all know overthrowing a regime and leaving the remaining populace to fend for themselves and become victims to the radical Wahhabi ideology being enforced on them by IS and Al-Qaeda is what is best for them right? And you guys have the gall to call me brainwashed? Lmao.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Molly on October 30, 2015, 04:30:15 pm
Refute it.

Otherwise the joke's on you.

If RT's reports are largely reports on what many other outlets including Western outlets have reported are they all lying or, what? RT does invite analysts on to its channel to provide their perspective on geopolitical events including what's happening in Syria. Many of these analysts have been covering their subject matter for years and are experts in their own right in the field they specialise in and many of them are analysts from the West NOT Russia. I guess they must be lying too and you, Tibe and whoever know better. I guess when RT reports on something, such as the U.S arming and funding jihadi's in Syria only for the U.S to admit that it's doing so years/months later I guess RT is lying again.. Oh the joke's on you Molly.

There are always agendas afoot, but I for one oppose my current and past governments actions in the Middle-East. You and others supporting your perspective buy in to our own politicians spin about wanting to help people and bomb people for "humanitarian purposes", that's fucking right, BOMB people for HUMANITARIAN reasons. Because we all know bombing is a humanitarian action right? We all know overthrowing a regime and leaving the remaining populace to fend for themselves and become victims to the radical Wahhabi ideology being enforced on them by IS and Al-Qaeda is what is best for them right? And you guys have the gall to call me brainwashed? Lmao.
You're just another deluded self-rightous cunt.
Yep, name calling... already feel better now.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Lt_Anders on October 30, 2015, 05:24:04 pm
Refute it.

Otherwise the joke's on you.

If RT's reports are largely reports on what many other outlets including Western outlets have reported are they all lying or, what? RT does invite analysts on to its channel to provide their perspective on geopolitical events including what's happening in Syria. Many of these analysts have been covering their subject matter for years and are experts in their own right in the field they specialise in and many of them are analysts from the West NOT Russia. I guess they must be lying too and you, Tibe and whoever know better. I guess when RT reports on something, such as the U.S arming and funding jihadi's in Syria only for the U.S to admit that it's doing so years/months later I guess RT is lying again.. Oh the joke's on you Molly.

There are always agendas afoot, but I for one oppose my current and past governments actions in the Middle-East. You and others supporting your perspective buy in to our own politicians spin about wanting to help people and bomb people for "humanitarian purposes", that's fucking right, BOMB people for HUMANITARIAN reasons. Because we all know bombing is a humanitarian action right? We all know overthrowing a regime and leaving the remaining populace to fend for themselves and become victims to the radical Wahhabi ideology being enforced on them by IS and Al-Qaeda is what is best for them right? And you guys have the gall to call me brainwashed? Lmao.

I refuted several of your "articles" sometime back.

You ignored it and continued on with your "agenda." If anything, you are totally ignoring any points. Typical russian/Tin Foil hat BS that you always see from the less than ideal societal components.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on October 30, 2015, 05:52:02 pm
I refuted several of your "articles" sometime back.

You ignored it and continued on with your "agenda." If anything, you are totally ignoring any points. Typical russian/Tin Foil hat BS that you always see from the less than ideal societal components.

Likewise you've ignored most of my points. Oh look you're trying to dress me up as a "conspiracy nut" now, way to refute my points brah, way to refute my points. Repeat your past points if they're worth mentioning at all that is.. I'll address them head on.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Grytviken on October 30, 2015, 06:02:49 pm
  There are at least three, or six of them ) have fun  :P
https://translate.google.ru/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=ru&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fruxpert.ru%2F%25D0%25A0%25D1%2583%25D1%2581%25D0%25BE%25D1%2584%25D0%25BE%25D0%25B1%25D1%2581%25D0%25BA%25D0%25B8%25D0%25B5_%25D1%2581%25D0%25BE%25D0%25BE%25D0%25B1%25D1%2589%25D0%25B5%25D1%2581%25D1%2582%25D0%25B2%25D0%25B0_%25D0%25B8_%25D0%25A1%25D0%259C%25D0%2598&edit-text=

And they are all classified as Russophobia, Anti-Russian or pro American fascist, or have some ex controversial soviet figure like Trotsky or Gorbachev attached to them lol. Putin must be god's gift to man, how long has he been in office, 14 years? Crown him King already  :lol:

 Scandinavia is very successful economically and doesn't have half the resources Russia does . With the largest land mass nation on earth, no political opposition, oil and natural resources coming out the yin yang and a never ending supply of cheap Chinese labor to the south Putin should have built the Kingdom of white Russian Utopia by now.
 
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Tibe on October 30, 2015, 06:46:35 pm
Likewise you've ignored most of my points. Oh look you're trying to dress me up as a "conspiracy nut" now, way to refute my points brah, way to refute my points. Repeat your past points if they're worth mentioning at all that is.. I'll address them head on.

There is nothing to refute to. You are infact a deluded nutcase and every attemt to refute is futile. Its like arguing with a religious nutjub. At any point you corner his bullshit he'l just throw the "god works in misterious ways" card and you realise you just spent all your time arguing with a nutjob.

I too like the term Russofobia. They are trying to victimize themselves and its funny as hell.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Kafein on October 30, 2015, 07:02:45 pm
The reason nobody bothers to refute Murmi or Tovi's bullshit is because they'll just ignore it and come back with more bullshit.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Xant on October 30, 2015, 07:33:30 pm
The reason nobody bothers to refute Murmi or Tovi's bullshit is because they'll just ignore it and come back with more bullshit.
Exactly this. It's just a waste of time.

Last time this was demonstrated when Murmillus' source turned out to be a video game, and he completely ignored that.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on October 31, 2015, 12:57:01 am
Hi zombies, just some links here for you.. I know it might be a little difficult for you to digest the truth of our reality but have a look anyway. It's a bit of a stretch, but you might learn something. (A long stretch.) Enjoy your brains.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/30/syria-us-deployment-troops-obama-special-operations

https://www.rt.com/usa/320177-syria-us-troops-obama/

I'm right you're wrong, I'm smart you're stupid. You get the idea. In-fact many of you epitomise why going along with consensus at least in this microcosmic corner of the internet isn't always the right thing to do.

The war on drugs, and terror have some similarities. The harder governments fight against them the stronger they get and both have involved cases of government complicity in the aiding and abetting and transit of.

I am proven right in more ways than one in both of the links above, I guess it's all lies and I'm deluded. Oh dear. :)
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Xant on October 31, 2015, 01:33:21 am
Post more reliable video game sources Murmillus!
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on October 31, 2015, 01:41:41 am
Woof woof woof Murmillus!

Yes, you must do your best to impress Murmillus! It is important that he is impressed!!!

Yes, you must do your best to impress Murmillus! It is important that he is impressed!!!

Yes, you must do your best to impress Murmillus! It is important that he is impressed!!!
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Tibe on October 31, 2015, 07:39:42 am
Yes, liberate us Murmillus! Oh wise one, who posesses the knowledge of all the worlds geopolitics, please enlighten us.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Molly on October 31, 2015, 09:55:10 am
Hi zombies, just some links here for you.. I know it might be a little difficult for you to digest the truth of our reality but have a look anyway. It's a bit of a stretch, but you might learn something. (A long stretch.) Enjoy your brains.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/30/syria-us-deployment-troops-obama-special-operations

https://www.rt.com/usa/320177-syria-us-troops-obama/

I'm right you're wrong, I'm smart you're stupid. You get the idea. In-fact many of you epitomise why going along with consensus at least in this microcosmic corner of the internet isn't always the right thing to do.

The war on drugs, and terror have some similarities. The harder governments fight against them the stronger they get and both have involved cases of government complicity in the aiding and abetting and transit of.

I am proven right in more ways than one in both of the links above, I guess it's all lies and I'm deluded. Oh dear. :)
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Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on October 31, 2015, 01:41:51 pm
I must say, that I have won.

Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Tibe on October 31, 2015, 02:38:37 pm
Yeah. Turns out we are just too blind to the obvious truth and you are the only one here, who sees everything for how it really is with both eyes open. You have have won. Just like the commentsection in RT, you too possess too much knowledge for our tiny brains that have been zombiefied by jews and US imperialistic hegemony propaganda.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Xant on October 31, 2015, 05:59:11 pm
I must say, that I have won.
No no Murmillus, don't be like that! Post more video games!
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Vovka on October 31, 2015, 06:50:09 pm
American love two things democracy and oil
They tried to  introduce the no-fly zone over part of Syrian territory but failed, then tried to declare a part of the territory of Syria as territory conrolled by moderate opossition  , but the evil Russian do not believe in a moderate opposition and keep bmbing heir car bombs facility, now they will be put troops precisely where trying to  introduce the no-fly zone and to which argued that there is moderate oppositions,
and of course by chance it will oil refineries  :P
 Oh, and they alread asked the Russian keeping Russian forces in the distance of their soldiers

 
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Grytviken on October 31, 2015, 07:03:08 pm
American love two things democracy and oil
They tried to  introduce the no-fly zone over part of Syrian territory but failed, then tried to declare a part of the territory of Syria as territory conrolled by moderate opossition  , but the evil Russian do not believe in a moderate opposition and keep bmbing heir car bombs facility, now they will be put troops precisely where trying to  introduce the no-fly zone and to which argued that there is moderate oppositions,
and of course by chance it will oil refineries  :P

  There was never a no-fly zone in Syria. The Syrian government lost control of all of eastern Syria years ago, they don't operate there at all. It's nothing new that the US fights ISIS in their controlled areas to free hostages. Syrian rebels and the Kurds who are not loyal to Assad have been fighting ISIS in eastern Syria for a long time, it's a multi-factional civil war, even the Russian government admits this now. Russia is merely engaging the rebel factions who want to overthrow Assad, not the ISIS caliphate, satellite imagery proves this.



 
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Sir_Hans on October 31, 2015, 07:17:53 pm

That video is bullshit.

First shot shows  single figure walking down the hill away from the flag, then he starts running all of a sudden.
Then it cuts to another scene... 2 guys standing on hill motionless, evening sky most likely later in the day and then the explosion happens.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Grytviken on October 31, 2015, 07:20:17 pm
That video is bullshit.

First shot shows  single figure walking down the hill away from the flag, then he starts running all of a sudden.
Then it cuts to another scene... 2 guys standing on hill motionless, evening sky most likely later in the day and then the explosion happens.

 lol it's not bullshit it's called a jdam

 

 
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Grytviken on October 31, 2015, 07:44:35 pm
Oh, and they alread asked the Russian keeping Russian forces in the distance of their soldiers

 I can only imagine why. Russia can't even land cruise missiles in the right country, launched at Syria and landed in Iran  :lol:  There's already a coalition of 80 nations doing a job, Putin is like an annoying ex girlfriend who wasn't invited to the party, but shows up anyways, it's possible his Asperger's syndrome is acting up again.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Sir_Hans on October 31, 2015, 07:48:39 pm
lol it's not bullshit it's called a jdam

You missed my point entirely. I'm not trying to imply the explosions were faked or CGI or planted on the ground.

Whats bullshit is the video's title and description claiming that an ISIS member gets bombed seconds after he plants the flag...
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Vovka on October 31, 2015, 07:52:27 pm

well done! we got dat damnit flag!
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Grytviken on October 31, 2015, 08:02:11 pm
well done! we got dat damnit flag!

I mean cmon Vovka, can we really be having stuff like this going on? Is everyone drunk?  : I don't know what's more embarrassing, the missile failing? or launching a missile to celebrate some dumb bullshit?  :lol:



Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Molly on October 31, 2015, 08:06:25 pm
Not a missile launch but a missile fart really :lol:
Good find :D
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Grytviken on October 31, 2015, 08:10:29 pm
Not a missile launch but a missile fart really :lol:
Good find :D

What makes it even better is they worship their missiles like alpha omega in the planet of the apes.  :lol: Weird as hell

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Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Vovka on October 31, 2015, 08:10:40 pm
(click to show/hide)
[/spoiler]
shit happens
  :P
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Tibe on October 31, 2015, 08:21:12 pm
What makes it even better is they worship their missiles like alpha omega in the planet of the apes.  :lol: Weird as hell
Heh. To be honest you are totally on to something here. Wierd case is that Russians love their armies weapons insanely. Like for a peaceful harmless country, as they claim to be, they do ideolize their armed forces and weapons like no other country on the planet. Just watched some random video of a Russian ship shooting missiles and it was filled with "russia great country, russia stronk comments". Half of the commenters were probably jizzing their pants over the Russian flag while watching that.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Grytviken on October 31, 2015, 08:29:29 pm
Heh. To be honest you are totally on to something here. Wierd case is that Russians love their armies weapons insanely. Like for a peaceful harmless country, as they claim to be, they do ideolize their armed forces and weapons like no other country on the planet. Just watched some random video of a Russian ship shooting missiles and it was filled with "russia great country, russia stronk comments". Half of the commenters were probably jizzing their pants over the Russian flag while watching that.

Those parades with all those missiles are good for the whole family to enjoy, and the bonus is that it probably scares the bejesus out of Lithuanian farmers.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Grytviken on October 31, 2015, 09:11:12 pm
No no Murmillus, don't be like that! Post more video games!

https://www.rt.com/politics/318368-we-need-world-of-tanks/

lmao
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Xant on October 31, 2015, 11:19:56 pm
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on November 01, 2015, 01:47:04 pm
Yeah. Turns out we are just too blind to the obvious truth and you are the only one here, who sees everything for how it really is with both eyes open. You have have won. Just like the commentsection in RT, you too possess too much knowledge for our tiny brains that have been zombiefied by jews and US imperialistic hegemony propaganda.

An unexpected but honest admission of your general state of being. Well done.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on November 01, 2015, 01:49:08 pm
Woof woof Murmillus, woof woof woof! Woof woof woo woof!
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on November 01, 2015, 01:51:17 pm
Pull out your cocks and start doing helicopters because the propagandised zombified mob that clings to this thread have brought out the big guns.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZXZ7gD3mho
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Sir_Hans on November 01, 2015, 07:42:00 pm
Pull out your cocks and start doing helicopters because the propagandised zombified mob that clings to this thread have brought out the big guns.



Just incase you wanted to helicopter your cock to that music for more than 18 seconds.
Probably good cardio tbh... Full body work out like hula hoops :P
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Knute on November 02, 2015, 10:51:41 pm

Just watched this new Frontline documentary on life inside Assad's territory, it's pretty good. Here's the link to the official site which has the full-length doc if the YouTube clip doesn't work:

http://video.pbs.org/program/frontline/ (http://video.pbs.org/program/frontline/)
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on November 04, 2015, 04:57:48 am
RuAF Press Briefing October 28th. Eng. Subs.
Read more at http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=9f2_1446583520#EWgK76M56xVCv1HU.99

I tried to look for other sources for this video in an attempt to verify the accuracy of the date this briefing took place or was released to the public however I was unable to find other sources other than LiveLeak. Therefore I have been unable to independently verify the authenticity of the video. That said I can't say I've seen it before so it's not a repost to my knowledge.

The briefing details Russian airstrikes with lists of targets hit including drone video coverage and satellite imagery showing attacks on and targeted areas.

This of course is the Russian establishments transparency I referred to previously. But I guess I was wrong and this video is all lies, everything in it is made up Russian propaganda and all that jizz right brahs? I'm living in a fake reality and I'm deluded and my opponents here you're all keeping it real yeh? Haha.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Rhekimos on November 04, 2015, 05:43:45 am
That's just a self-congratulatory media briefing. It obviously was a media event, just look at the amount of microphones pointed at the speaker.

Granted, it's interesting and refreshing to see some operational level stuff like this. But a prepared explanation of one or two successful operations to the media doesn't really make the whole regime transparent.

The maps in the background and the operation center feel of where it was done doesn't automatically mean that what they said was 100% truthful either.
At most, it's their point of view, and exactly as much as they wanted to say.

Nothing about errors, consequences to civilians, what could be done better or improved or anything like that in there of course. Everything was perfect and the enemy was defeated cleanly is often the message given out but very rarely the reality of war.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Tibe on November 04, 2015, 09:38:57 am
This of course is the Russian establishments transparency I referred to previously. But I guess I was wrong and this video is all lies, everything in it is made up Russian propaganda and all that jizz right brahs? I'm living in a fake reality and I'm deluded and my opponents here you're all keeping it real yeh? Haha.

No, Murmillus. We are all deluded. You and your friends at RT are the ones who know the real truth(s). Jews and USA are trying to start WW3 to save Wests failing economy and get more oil and Russia is trying to prevent it. As far as im concerned, you are a worldhero just by being a russian Murmillus. God bless the Motherland! Such open honesty and transparency, like the Kremlin has is rare these days because of US worldwide hegemony of terror and deceit.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Molly on November 04, 2015, 09:50:11 am
Read the abstract of a psychological study about conspiracy theorists a couple of days ago. Yes, there actually are a few studies.
They found out that the more proof for their sources and 'knowledge' about things being flawed or even faulty, the harder they assume you're either some kind of send agent of the big conspiracy or naive, deluded, uneducated, blind 'sheep'.
But of course all those studies either aim at the 'others' or are contract work for government agencies.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Vovka on November 04, 2015, 06:36:18 pm
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Kafein on November 04, 2015, 06:48:32 pm
How can you even argue RT is not a straight Kremlin infowar machine after shit like that? Needs more red arrows to be convincing tbh.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Grytviken on November 04, 2015, 07:15:46 pm
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2015/11/04/fact-checking-russias-claim-that-it-didnt-bomb-a-hospital-in-syria/

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2015/11/04/%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%BA%D0%B0-%D0%BE%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B6%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%8F-%D0%BC%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B1%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BD%D1%8B-%D1%80%D1%84-2/
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Tibe on November 04, 2015, 07:29:13 pm
How can you even argue RT is not a straight Kremlin infowar machine after shit like that? Needs more red arrows to be convincing tbh.

I also find it funny how they spend majority of the time desperately debunking US accusations, rather than just give news. RTnews - "got proofs?"
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on November 05, 2015, 01:20:14 am
How can you even argue RT is not a straight Kremlin infowar machine after shit like that? Needs more red arrows to be convincing tbh.

What ever. If an infowar machine needs to rely on actual events to win an information war then I'm all in favour of it. Your attitude is pretty much summed up as.."I'll write this off before even bothering to watch it because I'm an arrogant prick and wilfully ignorant"..

On another note.

"Turkish Armed Forces annihilates some ISIS targets in Syria with the help of Turkish mujahideens"

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ad8_1446663959

Content in the main post and in the top comments below could be considered more evidence that Turkey is one of the major players behind the Al-Qaeda backed "moderate opposition". While the Turkish government simultaneously government bomb the Kurds in North Iraq.

(Of course you'll need to click on the link and look at the post and the top comments to have an informed opinion on the comment I've just made, if you ignorantly write the link and its content off then you are no better than a brainwashed zombie and not fit to debate the latter point made in this post.)

Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on November 05, 2015, 01:30:02 am
No, Murmillus. We are all deluded. You and your friends at RT are the ones who know the real truth(s). Jews and USA are trying to start WW3 to save Wests failing economy and get more oil and Russia is trying to prevent it. As far as im concerned, you are a worldhero just by being a russian Murmillus. God bless the Motherland! Such open honesty and transparency, like the Kremlin has is rare these days because of US worldwide hegemony of terror and deceit.

I'm not Russian, I have no special relationship with the Russian people or state. But I guess accusing me of being Russian or refusing to face up to reality is your way of coping, well who am I to dictate how another manages to cope with their reality, even if they're happily and wilfully deluded to the point of inanity.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on November 05, 2015, 01:32:30 am
That's just a self-congratulatory media briefing. It obviously was a media event, just look at the amount of microphones pointed at the speaker.

Granted, it's interesting and refreshing to see some operational level stuff like this. But a prepared explanation of one or two successful operations to the media doesn't really make the whole regime transparent.

The maps in the background and the operation center feel of where it was done doesn't automatically mean that what they said was 100% truthful either.
At most, it's their point of view, and exactly as much as they wanted to say.

Nothing about errors, consequences to civilians, what could be done better or improved or anything like that in there of course. Everything was perfect and the enemy was defeated cleanly is often the message given out but very rarely the reality of war.

Well it's a good thing I never stated that the Russian establishment or ruling elite were 100% transparent, I've just stated they're far more transparent than our own NATO member state governments. I've yet to see over the years a similar presentation conducted by the "American led" coalition which has supposedly been bombing ISIS for years.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on November 05, 2015, 01:34:32 am
Read the abstract of a psychological study about conspiracy theorists a couple of days ago. Yes, there actually are a few studies.
They found out that the more proof for their sources and 'knowledge' about things being flawed or even faulty, the harder they assume you're either some kind of send agent of the big conspiracy or naive, deluded, uneducated, blind 'sheep'.
But of course all those studies either aim at the 'others' or are contract work for government agencies.

On the contrary if anything my accusations of brainwashing, being braindead or deluded only sought to mirror similar accusations laid against myself by a handful of opponents in this thread, including yourself. Now you think after indulging in such name calling you're in a position to try and profile someone for doing the same back? When you make this point, are you talking about yourself? If so well done, you're on the first step to coming to your senses.

Oh and I must have skipped over/missed this article titled. " Thu Oct 22, 2015 3:38 EXCLUSIVE: Israeli Colonel Leading ISIL Terrorists Captured in Iraq"

http://english.farsnews.com/newstext.aspx?nn=13940730000210

Oh but the news agency is based in Iran, so I guess they're lying because our governments treat them like the bad guys and say they have a nuclear weapons program that we can't prove exists. I guess it's difficult to prove what does not exist to exist though right?

I'd love to know what media you guys consume that's enticed you into adopting the views of our corrupt, morally deficient and law breaking governments. Or were you indoctrinated through the "education" system in your respective countries?
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Lt_Anders on November 05, 2015, 02:55:24 am
OI,

Learn to fucking edit.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Rhekimos on November 05, 2015, 06:33:27 am
Well it's a good thing I never stated that the Russian establishment or ruling elite were 100% transparent, I've just stated they're far more transparent than our own NATO member state governments.

In what sense?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_information_laws_by_country#Russia

"The already repressive press freedom environment in Russia declined even further with Vladimir Putin’s return to the presidency in 2012, as authorities relied on both crude and sophisticated forms of media management to distract the public from terrorist attacks, economic troubles, and antigovernment protests. The government maintained its grip on key television outlets and tightened controls over the internet during the year, and most state and privately owned mass media engaged in blatant propaganda that glorified the country’s national leaders and fostered an image of political pluralism—especially in the months ahead of Putin’s victory in the March presidential election.

Although the constitution provides for freedom of speech and of the press, officials have used the country’s politicized and corrupt court system to harass the few remaining independent journalists who dare to criticize widespread abuses by the authorities. The constitution and a 2009 law provide for freedom of information, but accessing information related to government bodies, the judiciary, or via government websites is extremely difficult in practice. Russian law contains a broad definition of extremism that authorities frequently use to silence government critics, including journalists; the enforcement of this and other restrictive legal provisions has encouraged self-censorship."

https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-press/2013/russia


"Dear Readers:
The Freedom of Information foundation's website is no more updated.

Since early 2015, the Freedom of Informaton Foundation has frozen its activities after having failed to contest entrance of the organization in the register of NGOs performing "foreign agent" functions."

http://old.svobodainfo.org/en - The biggest organization dedicated to freedom of information in Russia.

Quote
I've yet to see over the years a similar presentation conducted by the "American led" coalition which has supposedly been bombing ISIS for years.

I'd love to have more info on NATO operations too, but that vid hardly makes up for this. Even if that vid presented a 100% earnest look into those operations, which I'm not sure it does.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Tibe on November 05, 2015, 07:11:15 am
Well it's a good thing I never stated that the Russian establishment or ruling elite were 100% transparent, I've just stated they're far more transparent than our own NATO member state governments. I've yet to see over the years a similar presentation conducted by the "American led" coalition which has supposedly been bombing ISIS for years.

That "transparency" is fake. The fact that you dont even slightly question these vids either proves you are trolling or really biased. NATO officials have always stated that they cant win the propaganda war with Russia, quite simply because Russia has 0 shame in just generating massbullshit to masses. Its like North Krean media saying that Kim Yong Un invented electricity. You just have nothing to counter that amount of bullshit with.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Xant on November 05, 2015, 07:18:50 am
Why do you keep trying to argue with him like he's a real person?
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Tibe on November 05, 2015, 07:46:28 am
Cause I dont want him to leave. He is funny.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Vovka on November 05, 2015, 07:51:15 am
(click to show/hide)
I'm sure you have read the entire text of the law  :P
 the main problem is that the fact of entering into this list excludes the use of accounting fraud because of the annual financial audits and reporting expenses.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Bjord on November 05, 2015, 08:59:28 am
OI,

Learn to fucking edit.

lol w/e flanders
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Xant on November 05, 2015, 09:47:42 am
Anders, more like Flanders. LOL.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Molly on November 05, 2015, 09:54:43 am
On the contrary if anything my accusations of brainwashing, being braindead or deluded only sought to mirror similar accusations laid against myself by a handful of opponents in this thread, including yourself. Now you think after indulging in such name calling you're in a position to try and profile someone for doing the same back? When you make this point, are you talking about yourself? If so well done, you're on the first step to coming to your senses.
[...]
Where directly in my post did I connect you personaly in a direct manner to my merely information containing post?
If that is the way you read all your news too... oh well, that explains quite a lot.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Rhekimos on November 05, 2015, 10:25:46 am
I'm sure you have read the entire text of the law  :P
 the main problem is that the fact of entering into this list excludes the use of accounting fraud because of the annual financial audits and reporting expenses.

I sure haven't.
And I don't know what the full weight of their organization being classified as foreign agents would be.

But I have a little creeping suspicion that it's about more than potential accounting fraud being uncovered.

Well, they could have shut down just to keep accounting fraud hidden. It's not entirely outside the realm of possibility and it can be a comforting narrative as well, if you live there.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Vovka on November 05, 2015, 10:55:23 am
I sure haven't.
And I don't know what the full weight of their organization being classified as foreign agents would be.
But I have a little creeping suspicion that it's about more than potential accounting fraud being uncovered.
Well, they could have shut down just to keep accounting fraud hidden. It's not entirely outside the realm of possibility and it can be a comforting narrative as well, if you live there.
I think mainly because of the paperwork and the inability to save on taxes by accounting fraud. Some have lost their funding from abroad as Sponsors did not want publicity (foreign agents must to provide sources of funding)
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Rhekimos on November 05, 2015, 11:15:22 am
I think mainly because of the paperwork and the inability to save on taxes by accounting fraud. Some have lost their funding from abroad as Sponsors did not want publicity (foreign agents must to provide sources of funding)

Well, there exists a chance of that. And we all ultimately choose what we believe.

Most of what I read about it is not encouraging though: https://www.hrw.org/news/2013/06/25/russia-harsh-toll-foreign-agents-law
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Tibe on November 05, 2015, 11:19:52 am
I think mainly because of the paperwork and the inability to save on taxes by accounting fraud. Some have lost their funding from abroad as Sponsors did not want publicity (foreign agents must to provide sources of funding)

Ahh the "foreign agent" law. When I heard about it first, it sounded similar to jews being stapled in nazi germany. :lol: As much as you might disagree, you have admit the West has somewhat pretty decent economic laws(or atleast used to), yet nobody has this one enforced. Why do you think that is? If it was mainly about catching taxevadors and it worked, im pretty sure the US for example would have instantly taken this law aswell, because they lose billions on tax evasions and accounting frauds.

Personally I think its still mainly about stapling foreign countries enterprises, to atleast discredit them, by making patriots for example avoid them. Ofcourse you may educate me on this. Like I said, I dont know a lot about it.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: LEKIS on November 05, 2015, 12:55:18 pm
Bjöööörd, are you heiiirr?
Can yu hear me bjöööörd
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Vovka on November 05, 2015, 12:58:54 pm
Ahh the "foreign agent" law. When I heard about it first,
(click to show/hide)
In 1938? The Foreign Agents Registration Act (FARA)  :P

at the moment our law is still raw, and zealous officials enjoy incomplete law to show how hard they work, perhaps over time it will get better or mb will not  :P
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Bjord on November 05, 2015, 02:01:38 pm
Bjöööörd, are you heiiirr?
Can yu hear me bjöööörd

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Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Vovka on November 05, 2015, 02:06:22 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

Bjord and angry girl  :)
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Grytviken on November 05, 2015, 07:10:47 pm
Ahh the "foreign agent" law. When I heard about it first, it sounded similar to jews being stapled in nazi germany. :lol: As much as you might disagree, you have admit the West has somewhat pretty decent economic laws(or atleast used to), yet nobody has this one enforced. Why do you think that is? If it was mainly about catching taxevadors and it worked, im pretty sure the US for example would have instantly taken this law aswell, because they lose billions on tax evasions and accounting frauds.

Personally I think its still mainly about stapling foreign countries enterprises, to atleast discredit them, by making patriots for example avoid them. Ofcourse you may educate me on this. Like I said, I dont know a lot about it.

This is why it takes 73,954 pages to explain the 4000 page US tax code. Censoring media due to claims of tax fraud is just an excuse for the Russian government to exert it's power and control and regulate the media. Russia has always been corrupt, they don't value their constitution at all, they are stuck in their communist ways.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_undesirable_organizations_law   


Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Xant on November 10, 2015, 03:15:02 pm
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Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on November 13, 2015, 01:24:51 am
Hey guys a conspiracy theory video here... With American politicians who aren't really American politicians (they must be aliens in human suits) and American officers who aren't American officers admitting that they knew they were arming the Syrian opposition including Al-Qaeda affiliates... What a conspiracy thrill right? (The second half of the video sucks don't blame me for it, but the first half is mostly documented real footage of interviews and hearings.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIpM-sjhjsU
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Murmillus_Prime on November 13, 2015, 01:27:44 am
Where directly in my post did I connect you personaly in a direct manner to my merely information containing post?
If that is the way you read all your news too... oh well, that explains quite a lot.

(click to show/hide)

You're just another deluded self-rightous cunt.
Yep, name calling... already feel better now.

Oh dear Molly.

Anyone else want to add to his dribble?
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Molly on November 13, 2015, 09:50:03 am
ugh... you're stupid  :rolleyes:
You complain about insults in a post that which it didn't contain and when I ask about it you quote something from the week before?
O.K.


Edit: Actually, forget it. Not gonna let you drag me down into your bullcrap...
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Xant on November 13, 2015, 11:24:16 am
Hey guys a conspiracy theory video here... With American politicians who aren't really American politicians (they must be aliens in human suits) and American officers who aren't American officers admitting that they knew they were arming the Syrian opposition including Al-Qaeda affiliates... What a conspiracy thrill right? (The second half of the video sucks don't blame me for it, but the first half is mostly documented real footage of interviews and hearings.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIpM-sjhjsU
Refer to:
http://forum.melee.org/general-off-topic/is-the-conflict-in-syria-turning-into-a-proxy-war/msg1181757/#msg1181757
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Vovka on November 20, 2015, 07:57:15 am

ISIS convoy with oil
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Tibe on November 20, 2015, 08:59:53 am
Where is that convoy heading? Out of curiousity who is exactly buying that oil? Wouldnt it be easier to just catch or bomb them?

(click to show/hide)

That was uncalled for. Considering that none of us claimed that US hasnt been arming the rebels. We know that and its a pretty obvious fact. They have kinda fucked up. What we dont agree with, is when tards like you add jewish conspiracy and world domination into the mix.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Sir_Hans on November 20, 2015, 09:23:00 am
World leaders never get sick... like flu or something... They are obviously reptile aliens summoned by Scientologists.


Also:
(click to show/hide)
ISIS convoy with oil

This is why the U.S. should give intel on ISIS to Russia they are getting shit done. I mean if the U.S. is really serious about destroying ISIS then toppling Assad should be a secondary objective and not infringe upon the primary objective to elminate ISIS... Obama is such a tool...
Spends more money on US military than any other president or world leader spends on their army in the history of mankind, then refuses to use it.

I wish Putin would just open hand slap my president... just once before he leaves office. My life would then be complete.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Tibe on November 20, 2015, 09:35:59 am
...
Spends more money on US military than any other president or world leader spends on their army in the history of mankind, then refuses to use it.
...

Well yeah. Remember what happened last time when US did send their army in? The entire worlds "moralpolice" stood up and yelled that "it aint our buisness". So the current outcome of it is that now no Western country actually dares to use its landforces on foreign soil anymore, to avoid recieving such international hate the US got. Now everybody who does have the capabilities and the will to stop genocides with armed forces in somewhat humane decency are officially grounded.

Welcome to the land of "it aint our buisness", we will just deal with bunch of suffering immigrants from now on. -.-
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Vovka on November 20, 2015, 09:44:29 am
(click to show/hide)

you talk about the case when under false pretenses US moved their troops to destroy the president of the country, state, and country has become a breeding ground for terrorism?
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Tibe on November 20, 2015, 09:55:36 am
Oh you mean the president who invaded and wiped out Kuwait from the world map and was already despised and hated by the majority of the Middle-East and the Arabic League? The guy, who if actually did have nukes, would have not even thought for a second to actually use them. You do realise if Iraq actually got nukes, Saddam could have been potentially free to do whatever the hell he wants in the Middle-East?
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Butan on November 20, 2015, 12:07:07 pm
ISIS has been painted as the ultimate evil enough that any country taking it up with them would be deemed as heroic, me thinks.

If they dont try its not as much as because they fear the people backlash (in that case, I think only anti-war people would mind. True they already make up a large number of persons) but because of political and financial reasons. Such as presidential elections, relationships between other countries involved in the conflict, and the cost of invading.

Also because the only country capable of doing so alone (without having to talk with other countries and arrange cooperative invasion) is the USA, and they have near to no moral credibility right now.
If you want USA to do any more serious action, vote Trump  :lol:
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Overdriven on November 20, 2015, 12:19:18 pm
There's a reason David Cameron in the UK doesn't get a huge amount of support for involvement in Syria. People are fed up after Iraq and Afghanistan. No one wants to be involved in yet another shit storm in the middle east and don't see it as our place. Particularly after the bull shit justifications for Iraq. The sad thing is Syria and fighting ISIS is actually a far better reason to involve ourselves there than the mythical WMDs.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Rhekimos on November 20, 2015, 01:33:42 pm
There's a reason David Cameron in the UK doesn't get a huge amount of support for involvement in Syria. People are fed up after Iraq and Afghanistan. No one wants to be involved in yet another shit storm in the middle east and don't see it as our place. Particularly after the bull shit justifications for Iraq. The sad thing is Syria and fighting ISIS is actually a far better reason to involve ourselves there than the mythical WMDs.

They've really been crying wolf a lot.

And now the problem is in their own backyard:
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Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: ecorcheur_brokar on November 20, 2015, 01:55:09 pm
Oh you mean the president who invaded and wiped out Kuwait from the world map and was already despised and hated by the majority of the Middle-East and the Arabic League? The guy, who if actually did have nukes, would have not even thought for a second to actually use them. You do realise if Iraq actually got nukes, Saddam could have been potentially free to do whatever the hell he wants in the Middle-East?
Oh you mean the president who took power tanks to the complicity of CIA.
Quote
Writing in his memoirs of the 1963 coup, long time OSS and CIA intelligence analyst Harry Rositzke presented it as an example of one on which they had good intelligence in contrast to others that caught the agency by surprise. The overthrow "was forecast in exact detail by CIA agents." "Agents in the Ba’th Party headquarters in Baghdad had for years kept Washington au courant on the party’s personnel and organization, its secret communications and sources of funds, and its penetrations of military and civilian hierarchies in several countries....CIA sources were in a perfect position to follow each step of Ba’th preparations for the Iraqi coup, which focused on making contacts with military and civilian leaders in Baghdad. The CIA’s major source, in an ideal catbird seat, reported the exact time of the coup and provided a list of the new cabinet members....To call an upcoming coup requires the CIA to have sources within the group of plotters. Yet, from a diplomatic point of view, having secret contacts with plotters implies at least unofficial complicity in the plot."

And was then provided with chemical and biological weapons by US:
Quote
A review of thousands of declassified government documents and interviews with former U.S. policymakers shows that U.S. provided intelligence and logistical support, which played a role in arming Iraq in its war with Iran. Under the Ronald Reagan and George H. W. Bush administrations, the U.S. authorized the sale to Iraq of numerous dual-use technology (items with both military and civilian applications), including chemicals which can be used in manufacturing of pesticides or chemical weapons and live viruses and bacteria, such as anthrax and bubonic plague used in medicine and the manufacture of vaccines or weaponized for use in biological weapons.

A report of the U.S. Senate's Committee on Banking, Housing and Urban Affairs concluded that the U.S. under the successive presidential administrations sold materials including anthrax, and botulism to Iraq right up until March 1992. The chairman of the Senate committee, Don Riegle, said: "The executive branch of our government approved 771 different export licenses for sale of dual-use technology to Iraq. I think it's a devastating record."[10] According to several former officials, the State and Commerce departments promoted trade in such items as a way to boost U.S. exports and acquire political leverage over Hussein.[11]
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0908-08.htm (http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0908-08.htm)

And who's action were finally considered unacceptable when he was not serving western interest anymore. Welcome to the land of "human rights are our business when we have interests"
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Tibe on November 20, 2015, 02:23:42 pm
And who's action were finally considered unacceptable when he was not serving western interest anymore. Welcome to the land of "human rights are our business when we have interests"

Yeah. Welcome to that land, or as in WORLD. Were you born yesterday, you french hippie?

You mean only US is the only nation that has self-interests? Oh you poor naive boy. Absolutely eeeeevery country on Earth is only after its own gain. And it kinda makes sense.  Why the fuck would countries politicians willingly just serve other people cause and waste their own resources, out of the kindness of their heart? Understand that my point was that Saddam had that shit coming long ago. Either way someone would have been forced to invade Iraq sooner or later. US just got to it first. For self-intrests sure. But dont come saying, Iraq was a happy place that only did good in the world, before the evil US invaded it.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: ecorcheur_brokar on November 20, 2015, 02:53:37 pm
I mean that Irak was a happier place under Saddam than right now and that we should just let the people there deal with their own problem. When you act abroad without consideration of the people living there only dictated by your own interests, don't be surprised if you're hated and criticized.

And that people saying we need a new invasion right now, when half of the people living there are opposed to it http://english.dohainstitute.org/file/Get/40ebdf12-8960-4d18-8088-7c8a077e522e (http://english.dohainstitute.org/file/Get/40ebdf12-8960-4d18-8088-7c8a077e522e) and that its precisely what Daech narrative of crusade needs, have shit in their eyes.

And those saying that it is to help poor refugees are either hypocrite or naive, as it will only make the conflict last longer and postpone the next islamist rebbellion.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Oberyn on November 20, 2015, 02:54:49 pm
Brokar has no idea what the opposition to the baathists even was. Just like all the dumb cunts whining that Britain "created" Saudi Arabia, completely ignoring that it was actually the most "modernist", "progressive" faction that won out in the end. That's how fucking sad the middle east and it's shit religion is. It was either insane religious fanatics or military dictators, or a combination of both. Still is, as Turkey's recent history, the most "secular" islamic country in the world, demonstrates. 
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: ecorcheur_brokar on November 20, 2015, 03:01:48 pm
Lol I am not the one crying "Saddam was a bad guy,  US was right to destitute him."

But anyway, I don't care if it had been a military dictator (could also have been nasserist or communist one who knows) or some fanatic instead, let them have what they want and then be pissed off at what they choose or happy with it. It is not our concern.

On the other thread you were saying "why should the west reform their religion?", I'm telling you "why should the west reform their governement?"
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Oberyn on November 20, 2015, 03:18:51 pm
I agree with you, if it was up to me Europe would close it's borders to every muslim majority country. Sadly it's already been decided by the powers that be that european population decline isn't in accord with their plans (they might not even have enough new workers to pay for their pensions! Imagine such horror!).

http://i.imgur.com/LfZ0DUN.jpg

Look at that rat-faced limey bastard cunt smiling at the death of europe. We need fertile muslim wombs desperately you see, the fact that western women are freer and have less children is problematic, let's import more backwards third worlders who breed like fucking rabbits, it's apparently a genetic trait and not a cultural one. It would be deeply racist and badwrong to encourage the natives to have more children, like the lands and the countries belong to them anyways, european countries are for the entire planet. Just accept the inevitable, cunts like Overdriven already have.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Overdriven on November 20, 2015, 03:23:55 pm
Ha hardly. I'm opposed to population expansion but if it's to be a necessity I like the model that many Scandinavian countries take on. Denmark for example encourages young adults to have children with free child care and a whole host of other policies that are designed to support parents. Immigration is a bad way of doing it.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Tibe on November 20, 2015, 04:35:12 pm
But anyway, I don't care if it had been a military dictator (could also have been nasserist or communist one who knows) or some fanatic instead, let them have what they want and then be pissed off at what they choose or happy with it. It is not our concern.

The recordbreaking amount of homeless poor women and children hoarding the Western borders kinda turns it into our concern aswell m8. Because where the fuck do you think a bunch of people run to instantly when their homes get burned or some dictator rapes his own country?

How can you be so blind as to not start seeing that it turns out that it actually is our problem aswell? I thought so too aswell. "Whats the point, let the dictators in the Middle-East do whatever they want with their countries". How is it related to me? Well now it kinda turns out it is. You either fight the psychos in their land or you start arguing with the immigrants near at your own lands border. Pick an option. The third option is to make your own country so shit, nobody wants to migrate there.

On the other thread you were saying "why should the west reform their religion?", I'm telling you "why should the west reform their governement?"

Because again. The poor people infront of our borders kinda turn it viable. Their governments can turn the average peoples homes uninhabitable and they have to relocate.

Lol I am not the one crying "Saddam was a bad guy,  US was right to destitute him."

You should the the one crying that too. Because its an actually fact. The dude was an agressive retard, who, if given the chance to rule longer, would have ripped the middle-east to shreads(bigger or same shreads it is in currently) eventually. The Arab League knew it. US knew it.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Leshma on November 20, 2015, 04:42:42 pm
There's always an option to do it murican style. Create havoc everywhere, don't give a fuck about consequences of your actions, show middle finger to those who criticize your actions. So far, it's working flawlessly for them.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Sir_Hans on November 21, 2015, 12:01:42 am
They've really been crying wolf a lot.

And now the problem is in their own backyard:
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This is what happens when the U.S. takes in about 80,000 refugees PER YEAR and then somehow convinces the majority of it's own people that reducing the number of refugees coming in would be unethical and unfair treatment towards muslims.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Xant on November 21, 2015, 12:42:26 am
There's a reason David Cameron in the UK doesn't get a huge amount of support for involvement in Syria. People are fed up after Iraq and Afghanistan. No one wants to be involved in yet another shit storm in the middle east and don't see it as our place. Particularly after the bull shit justifications for Iraq. The sad thing is Syria and fighting ISIS is actually a far better reason to involve ourselves there than the mythical WMDs.
Yet, this is so stupid. These people who are so adamantly against "western involvement" have nothing to lose. They have no stake in it. What did the UK lose from being involved in Iraq and Afghanistan? What did the average citizen sacrifice? Same for Poland, the US, etc. What's it away from them even if ground troops go into Syria?

Look at that rat-faced limey bastard cunt smiling at the death of europe. We need fertile muslim wombs desperately you see, the fact that western women are freer and have less children is problematic, let's import more backwards third worlders who breed like fucking rabbits, it's apparently a genetic trait and not a cultural one. It would be deeply racist and badwrong to encourage the natives to have more children, like the lands and the countries belong to them anyways, european countries are for the entire planet. Just accept the inevitable, cunts like Overdriven already have.
The whole "oh my god we need immigrants because we're losing people otherwise!" thing is ridiculous. Why do we need more people? So what if the white population is on the decline? All of those countries got along just fine before with a lot less people, with worse/no technology. If anything, there are too many people, and bullshit jobs have been created to give them something to do.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Xant on November 21, 2015, 05:28:24 am
http://www.cracked.com/blog/isis-wants-us-to-invade-7-facts-revealed-by-their-magazine/

Very interesting.



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Even these guys hate the apologists.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on November 21, 2015, 11:04:36 am
http://www.cracked.com/blog/isis-wants-us-to-invade-7-facts-revealed-by-their-magazine/

Very interesting.



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Even these guys hate the apologists.

Very good read indeed. And according to it, they got Oberyn exactly where they wanted him to be.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Xant on November 21, 2015, 11:39:35 am
Very good read indeed. And according to it, they got Oberyn exactly where they wanted him to be.
Some of the conclusions the writer of the article draws are questionable at best. "ISIS wants us to attack them (so we shouldn't)." ISIS wants the west to attack because they think Allah is going to destroy the armies of the west when they attack... that's hardly a reason for not doing it.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: ecorcheur_brokar on November 21, 2015, 11:48:30 am
The recordbreaking amount of homeless poor women and children hoarding the Western borders kinda turns it into our concern aswell m8. Because where the fuck do you think a bunch of people run to instantly when their homes get burned or some dictator rapes his own country?

How can you be so blind as to not start seeing that it turns out that it actually is our problem aswell? I thought so too aswell. "Whats the point, let the dictators in the Middle-East do whatever they want with their countries". How is it related to me? Well now it kinda turns out it is. You either fight the psychos in their land or you start arguing with the immigrants near at your own lands border. Pick an option. The third option is to make your own country so shit, nobody wants to migrate there.

Because again. The poor people infront of our borders kinda turn it viable. Their governments can turn the average peoples homes uninhabitable and they have to relocate.

You should the the one crying that too. Because its an actually fact. The dude was an agressive retard, who, if given the chance to rule longer, would have ripped the middle-east to shreads(bigger or same shreads it is in currently) eventually. The Arab League knew it. US knew it.
Yeah now the refugee situation in Mediteranea is so much better now that Kadafi was removed from power and all those refugee coming from Syria when Assad was head of state were unbeareable. Luckily we made Irak a better and more stable place to live in.

I hope we soon remove Khomeiny from power in Iran, I am tired of this mass of iranian refugee!
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Oberyn on November 21, 2015, 11:59:26 am
What they want is to kill us. Turning the other cheek just makes it easier. Did you see the extremely publicized response of the man whose wife got killed? His child will grow up without a mother and his reaction is to pretend he is living in some sort of fucking Hollywood movie. And this is lauded and aplauded. "I will not give you the gift of my hate", it's pathetic. How many more families have had a completely different and justified reaction of hatred and loathing for the assholes who murdered their loved ones? Why aren't those responses publicized and published and lauded? Doesn't fit with the apathetic, passive reaction narrative that should be addopted, apparently. Do you really think daesh's main goal is to get westerners to hate them (as if we needed any more reasons) so there can be a game of 11th dimensional chess where this somehow makes daesh stronger? How many times must they clearly state their intentions, how many more dead before these idiots blinded by childish disney level reasoning open their eyes? "Violence never solves anything, it's because of (our) violence that daesh exists in the first place, what we need is MORE tolerance and love and multiculturalism".

These muslim extremists are insane, they truly think they will fulfill some sort of apocalyptic prophecy if the countries and cultures they loathe and attack relentlessly finally do what they should have done years ago, and your response is to go "We shouldn't completely obliterate these backwards pieces of shit, this is exactly what they want". Yes, because they think they're protected by divine providence and fate, that if the west invades them it will end up in the west's destruction. And you take these delusions seriously? It's time to give them exactly what they want. Let them face armies instead of slaughtering defenceless civilians. What do you idiots think, that if we put boots on the ground daesh will somehow come out victorious? Same thing will happen as always happens whenever these pieces of shit come up against the armies of modern western nations. They will just turn their hatred inward and go for easier targets, as happened in Iraq and Afghanistan. Western hatred or lack thereof is completely irrelevant, they don't need the actions of "crusaders" to galvanize their own hatred, "tolerance and understanding" will not disarm them of it. There's more than enough reasons and justifications of their own agency. The planet does not revolve around us, not everything that happens is a "reaction" to us.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on November 21, 2015, 12:01:18 pm
Yeah I agree that is a Milchmädchenrechnung (Why isn't that an english expression already?). Would actually a real fucking good idea to attack them in dabiq - it certainly shouldn't fail though.

But still I think it is a good point that becoming more and more radical anti-muslim is rather helping the likes of ISIS, because it is really what they want. And even if it is hard to make any real sunni friends or allies (because yeah, most of them suck) we should never stop trying. Maybe not give them weapons straight away, though.

edit:, just in case: didn't read oberyns post before posting above.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: ecorcheur_brokar on November 21, 2015, 12:39:21 pm
You either fight the psychos in their land or you start arguing with the immigrants near at your own lands border. Pick an option. The third option is to make your own country so shit, nobody wants to migrate there.
Let's ban Russian from official language to appease tension in Ukraine! What a surprise when some months after the Swiss delegation in Mali for mediation and peace has been sent home by French, there's an uprising in northern Mali followed by a Jihadist takeover!

Let's refuse to have a peace talk about Syria as long as Assad is taking part to it. And only after 2 millions death, a country torn apart and jihadist flooding into it, finally agree to have the head of state take part to the peace talk about his country.

But yeah truly, there's no other solution than pouring oil everywhere and when surprisingly it catches fire, sell weapons and send bombs to extinguish it. Plus why should we stop when it's working so well? That 12 years after the first Iraki war, the situation there is still not resolved, that 14 years after the invasion of afghanistan, it is still the second source of refugee. How can it be surprising that there are so many jihadist coming from Afghanistan when the population there hasn't known peace for 37 years? Surely when a whole generation has known nothing but war, never had time to learn to read but was instead teach to defend their home, it will lead to stability and development.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: The_Bloody_Nine on November 21, 2015, 12:51:14 pm
Oberyn, who do you exactly want to obliterate? Isis? All extreme Muslims? All Sunni Muslims? All Muslims? How you want to achieve that? I think right now a massive invasion against ISIS is overdue, though I am in no way certain that it is really the best thing to do or if it will solve any problems in the long run. But I don't personally see any other short-therm solution as well. In the long run however one way or the other our main goal must be to get at piece with the Sunnis and reduce hatred on both sides. That's why I think you are rather helping groups like ISIS to exist for eternity. Kick out every Muslim out of Europe and shut our borders? Try not to help their economies thrive? Condemn all sunnis and spread hatred on every occasion possible? Yes, even if I agree that Muslims hatred against the West will get along on their own fine, your attitude is certainly not helping changing that.

Also what is it that you see self-accusing whites everywhere? You know better than many others here that geniuses like Sykes, Picot or more recent Bush junior do have their share in the current situation, but do you really know so many people who equal that with "We are responsible for all problems in the middle east?" - Of course that is completely stupid.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Tibe on November 21, 2015, 12:58:32 pm
Yeah now the refugee situation in Mediteranea is so much better now that Kadafi was removed from power and all those refugee coming from Syria when Assad was head of state were unbeareable. Luckily we made Irak a better and more stable place to live in.

I hope we soon remove Khomeiny from power in Iran, I am tired of this mass of iranian refugee!

I never claimed that anything was better. I simply claimed that the things happening in the Middle East are also our issues(which you, may I quote, claimed were not), wether you like it or not. Revolutions nomatter what kind always create more refugees. And who the fuck are you to claim that those people people are happy or content with their fucked up leaders? I sure am happy that people like you didnt exsist that much during the Soviet Unions collapse. "Nono, dont risk with this revolution to gain sovereignty and finally rid ourselves of our oppressing leaders. Things might get worse, lets just deal with it, its not that bad." Is the kind of an person that you are brokar.

Its not the Wests fault that there is always a powervaccum that is filled by fanatics whenever some leader is overthrown in the Middle-East. Its a bit like Africa. Even if the West wouldnt do shit, it would still generate a lot of refugees. Than the warlords, like in Africa, would just burn eachothers homes and the result would be relatively similar to what it is now.

Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Oberyn on November 21, 2015, 12:59:12 pm
Also what is it that you see self-accusing whites everywhere? You know better than many others here that geniuses like Sykes, Picot or more recent Bush junior do have their share in the current situation, but do you really know so many people the equal that with "We are responsible for all problems in the middle east?" - Of course that is completely stupid.   :(

Ask the self-flagellating bundle of sticks posting above you. Don't you know the "french" muslims who murdered did so because of awful western opression? It wasn't enough to treat them the same as any other french citizen, it wasn't enough to accept them in our countries, it wasn't enough to give them lives and opportunities they never would've had in their own countries. The fact that they were born and lived their entire lives here is completely irrelevant, they manage to be opressed by osmosis by events happening hundreds of kilometers from them and from which they suffered nothing, and their hatred and loathing is completely rational. Delusional bundle of sticks really think the swiss peace mission would've prevented war in northern Mali, there's no reasoning with this piece of shit. I can only hope someone in his family gets killed by a muslim fanatic, that a woman he knows gets raped and pissed on by these poor opressed victims, that he gets the shit beaten out of him and called a white piece of shit, and then have his own people call him an evil racist if he so much as complains.   
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: ecorcheur_brokar on November 21, 2015, 01:16:06 pm
I never claimed that anything was better. I simply claimed that the things happening in the Middle East are also our issues(which you, may I quote, claimed were not), wether you like it or not. Revolutions nomatter what kind always create more refugees. And who the fuck are you to claim that those people people are happy or content with their fucked up leaders? I sure am happy that people like you didnt exsist that much during the Soviet Unions collapse. "Nono, dont risk with this revolution to gain sovereignty and finally rid ourselves of our oppressing leaders. Things might get worse, lets just deal with it, its not that bad." Is the kind of an person that you are brokar.

Its not the Wests fault that there is always a powervaccum that is filled by fanatics whenever some leader is overthrown in the Middle-East. Its a bit like Africa. Even if the West wouldnt do shit, it would still generate a lot of refugees. Than the warlords, like in Africa, would just burn eachothers homes and the result would be relatively similar to what it is now.
That's a very good exemple and history proved me right. When the Soviet Union came up it was in part by force but also because they had the momentum due to the people will, nobody intervened and with time people realised what they wished for could not be, the government even if authoritarian collapsed by itself by lack of support, without bloodshed.

Same happened in Taiwan, Nationalist authoritarian government decided to have a democratic transition when it realised it had no more reason to be.

I am pretty confident that in some years China will have its own transition but I am sure as hell that if we provoked the collapse of the government right now it would be chaos.

What you don't understand but Oberyn managed to understand is that fanatics in Syria have the support of the population, it couldn't have raised to power so fast without the momentum of the population. Whether they were under a dictatorship or under fanatics rules was in both cases thanks to the population making the balance lean on one side or the other. But just let the balance be, whether we intervene or not change absolutely nothing if we go against the will of the people living there. Unless we simply exterminate the whole population like Oberyn is suggesting.

I have no fear of muslims fanatics as my government never stepped their boots in the middle east shit, and so muslim fanatics have nothing to do with my country either. So just keep getting in everyone shits if it pleases you but don't come crying when you get shit stains on your boots.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Tibe on November 21, 2015, 01:29:32 pm
That's a very good exemple and history proved me right. When the Soviet Union came up it was in part by force but also because they had the momentum due to the people will, nobody intervened and with time people realised what they wished for could not be, the government even if authoritarian collapsed by itself by lack of support, without bloodshed.

Same happened in Taiwan, Nationalist authoritarian government decided to have a democratic transition when it realised it had no more reason to be.

I am pretty confident that in some years China will have its own transition but I am sure as hell that if we provoked the collapse of the government right now it would be chaos.

What you don't understand but Oberyn managed to understand is that fanatics in Syria have the support of the population, it couldn't have raised to power so fast without the momentum of the population. Whether they were under a dictatorship or under fanatics rules was in both cases thanks to the population making the balance lean on one side or the other. But just let the balance be, whether we intervene or not change absolutely nothing if we go against the will of the people living there. Unless we simply exterminate the whole population like Oberyn is suggesting.

I have no fear of muslims fanatics as my government never stepped their boots in the middle east shit, and so muslim fanatics have nothing to do with my country either. So just keep getting in everyone shits if it pleases you but don't come crying when you get shit on your boots.

Considering what the Chinese government is, it will definately be chaos wether we provoke it or not. You do realise that in the collapse of the Soviet Union, the majority of the role was still played by foreign intervention and own caused inefficiency and some countries barely got independence? Were extremely close to not getting it even. And it was pretty close to chaos. Kremlins tanks were all over the lands that tried to claim independence and were extremely close to actually fire at the protesters. In Soviet unions case it was just pure luck and covincidence none of it happened. The way you make it sound like "eh, thats a textbook example of what happens when people want to leave peacefully and naturally". You have no idea about what you are talking about. The reason why bloodshed was avoided was thanks to the pressure of the international community and USSR leaders showing that they still have some degree of humanity left in them. The Chinese however, will definately bomb Taiwan to shit before they ever let it be independent. And there is absolutely nothing anyone can do about it. Same applies to the the Middle-East. No way any of those leaders will ever show a degree of humanity. They will bomb their own people.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Butan on November 21, 2015, 01:41:29 pm
I can only hope someone in his family gets killed by a muslim fanatic, that a woman he knows gets raped and pissed on by these poor opressed victims, that he gets the shit beaten out of him and called a white piece of shit, and then have his own people call him an evil racist if he so much as complains.

Is it what happened to you?  :lol:


Quote
I think right now a massive invasion against ISIS is overdue, though I am in no way certain that it is really the best thing to do or if it will solve any problems in the long run.

Whether its the best thing or not should not stop us from actually doing the good thing and fighting against them. Leave the consequences to the survivors and the population, which I hope wont try something like that again afterward.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Kafein on November 21, 2015, 02:00:33 pm
Whether its the best thing or not should not stop us from actually doing the good thing and fighting against them. Leave the consequences to the survivors and the population, which I hope wont try something like that again afterward.

Bomb the oil wells for starters.

Considering what the Chinese government is, it will definately be chaos wether we provoke it or not. You do realise that in the collapse of the Soviet Union, the majority of the role was still played by foreign intervention and own caused inefficiency and some countries barely got independence? Were extremely close to not getting it even. And it was pretty close to chaos. Kremlins tanks were all over the lands that tried to claim independence and were extremely close to actually fire at the protesters. In Soviet unions case it was just pure luck and covincidence none of it happened. The way you make it sound like "eh, thats a textbook example of what happens when people want to leave peacefully and naturally". You have no idea about what you are talking about. The reason why bloodshed was avoided was thanks to the pressure of the international community and USSR leaders showing that they still have some degree of humanity left in them. The Chinese however, will definately bomb Taiwan to shit before they ever let it be independent. And there is absolutely nothing anyone can do about it. Same applies to the the Middle-East. No way any of those leaders will ever show a degree of humanity. They will bomb their own people.

First off, Taiwan *is* de facto independent. It is not recognized by the mainland, much like the mainland is not recognized by the Republic of China (the real name of Taiwan). I think you are underestimating how much the Chinese elite has changed throughout the years. They are businessmen, concerned with stability more than territorial gains. They don't have an expansionist ideology in their roots, quite the opposite.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Tibe on November 21, 2015, 02:18:36 pm
Yet, the Chinese president feels the need to threaten Taiwan with missiles? And as far as it appears to me, the Chinese elite did almost remove the expansionist ideology in their roots, but in a couple of years now, it kinda appears to be coming back. Ofcourse this just appears to me.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Kafein on November 21, 2015, 02:26:42 pm
Yet, the Chinese president feels the need to threaten Taiwan with missiles? And as far as it appears to me, the Chinese elite did almost remove the expansionist ideology in their roots, but in a couple of years now, it kinda appears to be coming back. Ofcourse this just appears to me.

They've always been threatening Taiwan.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Lt_Anders on November 21, 2015, 02:43:58 pm
They've always been threatening Taiwan.

And they've always threatened Japan too.

60 years of foreign policy that hasn't changed. Though they have lost their stranglehold over Indochina with Vietnam's severance of ties with China.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: ecorcheur_brokar on November 21, 2015, 02:49:56 pm
Considering what the Chinese government is, it will definately be chaos wether we provoke it or not. You do realise that in the collapse of the Soviet Union, the majority of the role was still played by foreign intervention and own caused inefficiency and some countries barely got independence? Were extremely close to not getting it even. And it was pretty close to chaos. Kremlins tanks were all over the lands that tried to claim independence and were extremely close to actually fire at the protesters. In Soviet unions case it was just pure luck and covincidence none of it happened. The way you make it sound like "eh, thats a textbook example of what happens when people want to leave peacefully and naturally". You have no idea about what you are talking about. The reason why bloodshed was avoided was thanks to the pressure of the international community and USSR leaders showing that they still have some degree of humanity left in them. The Chinese however, will definately bomb Taiwan to shit before they ever let it be independent. And there is absolutely nothing anyone can do about it. Same applies to the the Middle-East. No way any of those leaders will ever show a degree of humanity. They will bomb their own people.
Hahaha like the USSR had any care of "pressure of the international community" which didn't even exist when the world was divided in two. And the fall of the USSR caused by foreign intervention? didn't know you where tovi's brother. Was it caused by CIA or Illuminatti?

The only cause was its dysfonctionnement that caused the population ressentiment, which all communist leaders had to realise and face it was the end of their dreams. Or else this is the face of those who didn't realise they didn't benefit from the support from enough of their people.
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Romanian didn't need any foreign "help" when they really wanted to overthrow him. Just like Europe didn't need a foreign help to have its democratic societies, it just needed time and will.

Wow so much threaten! http://www.cnbc.com/2015/11/07/leaders-of-china-taiwan-meet-for-first-time-in-six-decades.html (http://www.cnbc.com/2015/11/07/leaders-of-china-taiwan-meet-for-first-time-in-six-decades.html)
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Leshma on November 21, 2015, 02:58:57 pm
Syria secretly sentenced free software developer Bassel Khartabil to death (https://boingboing.net/2015/11/20/assad-government-secretly-sent.html)

Assad or ISIS, tyranny remains.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: ecorcheur_brokar on November 21, 2015, 03:07:16 pm
Now considering middle-east. Suppose we should send troops there and remove Daech and Assad, what should we put instead?

-Another dictatorship? What is the difference with Assad aren't we going back to the point where we started? And putting dictator like we did in Afghanistan leads nowhere since as soon as US troops will withdraw the population will remove Ghani from power

-A democracy? Every time people in middle-east had the choice to elect their leader they choose islmamism.
Iran gave full power to Khomeiny, Egypt elected muslim brotherhood, Gaza voted Hamas, AKP taking power in Turkey, Tunisia elected Ennahadha. So it won't change much, the council of Charia will take power but by democratic means, but we will have spend millions in sending troops there and alienated most of the population.

Then the west will have two choices, try to overthrow him like interventionniste-dummie like you, love to do. And we are back to dictatorship, civil war, and bombings and terrorists attack like in Egypt.

Or we let them be, and either people keep their elected leader like in Iran, which doesn't cause any terrorist attack anymore as either people there are content with their situation either they are angry but against their governement (and not the west). Even if Iran like to runt, they don't do much.

Or people eventually get tired of islmo-politic and stop supporting it, like Tunisia where Ennahadha is losing power, and the desperate terrorist attacks there don't have the support of the population anymore. Finally  with the work of time and peace, you end up with a situation like Senegal.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Tibe on November 21, 2015, 03:26:20 pm
....

you know quite little about USSR dont you? :lol:

(click to show/hide)

Well I quess the people in Iraq want ISIS to rule them than, dont they? Because clearly the area, that ISIS currently occupies, the previous leaders were kicked out "by the population", as you put it. If thats the case than wtf are we even arguing about. Iraq clearly wants an abomination like that to rule them. ISIS was chosen by the people.  :lol:
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Xant on November 21, 2015, 06:38:03 pm
Now considering middle-east. Suppose we should send troops there and remove Daech and Assad, what should we put instead?
Shouldn't send troops, should send this:

visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Asheram on November 21, 2015, 06:55:34 pm
visitors can't see pics , please register or login
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Grytviken on November 21, 2015, 07:40:52 pm
....

you know quite little about USSR dont you? :lol:

Well I quess the people in Iraq want ISIS to rule them than, dont they? Because clearly the area, that ISIS currently occupies, the previous leaders were kicked out "by the population", as you put it. If thats the case than wtf are we even arguing about. Iraq clearly wants an abomination like that to rule them. ISIS was chosen by the people.  :lol:

 The large area of territory ISIS occupies includes the eastern part of Syria and the Northwestern part of Iraq. For the last 15 years Syrian Sunni's have been crossing the Iraqi boarder to fight a guerrilla war alongside other Sunni insurgents against the Iraqi government with Assad's blessing. The Iraqi Shias have been fighting these same people for the last 15 years, now they just have a different name and have turned on Assad as well.

   Since Assad allowed his own country to be used as a staging point to cause the coalition and Iraqi government much grief our policy has been hostile against him. He supported this kind of abomination growing on his own territory and enjoyed it as long as it wasn't going after him.

The US was able to create a temporary peace between the Sunni and Shia, which was very difficult to do because of all the outside influence. That all went out the window when the new Iraqi prime minister Maliki (who is a Shia) went out of his way to purge the Iraqi government of all Sunni's he considered a threat. The Iraqi parliament voted for US troops to leave Iraq and with that huge security void he became increasingly paranoid of an imminent uprising (which was liable to happen) but made things worse by just blindly arresting and jailing any Sunni's who he considered a threat and openly accepted Iranian support. So when this uprising did come in the form of ISIS, most Sunni's had already been kicked out of the Iraqi Army and the Shia soldiers had no intention of dying defending what they considered "Sunni" territory.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Angantyr on November 21, 2015, 07:56:39 pm
US policy makers also fanned the sectarian violence, though:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/mar/06/el-salvador-iraq-police-squads-washington
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Vovka on November 21, 2015, 08:19:03 pm
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/palestinian-poet-ashraf-fayadh-sentenced-death-by-saudi-court-renouncing-islam-1529763

"religious police" wtf
that country lacks democracy
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Grytviken on November 21, 2015, 08:32:34 pm
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/palestinian-poet-ashraf-fayadh-sentenced-death-by-saudi-court-renouncing-islam-1529763

"religious police" wtf
that country lacks democracy

http://europe.newsweek.com/twice-many-british-muslims-fighting-isis-armed-forces-265865   Does it surprise you?
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Oberyn on November 21, 2015, 09:42:52 pm
The large area of territory ISIS occupies includes the eastern part of Syria and the Northwestern part of Iraq. For the last 15 years Syrian Sunni's have been crossing the Iraqi boarder to fight a guerrilla war alongside other Sunni insurgents against the Iraqi government with Assad's blessing. The Iraqi Shias have been fighting these same people for the last 15 years, now they just have a different name and have turned on Assad as well.

   Since Assad allowed his own country to be used as a staging point to cause the coalition and Iraqi government much grief our policy has been hostile against him. He supported this kind of abomination growing on his own territory and enjoyed it as long as it wasn't going after him.

The US was able to create a temporary peace between the Sunni and Shia, which was very difficult to do because of all the outside influence. That all went out the window when the new Iraqi prime minister Maliki (who is a Shia) went out of his way to purge the Iraqi government of all Sunni's he considered a threat. The Iraqi parliament voted for US troops to leave Iraq and with that huge security void he became increasingly paranoid of an imminent uprising (which was liable to happen) but made things worse by just blindly arresting and jailing any Sunni's who he considered a threat and openly accepted Iranian support. So when this uprising did come in the form of ISIS, most Sunni's had already been kicked out of the Iraqi Army and the Shia soldiers had no intention of dying defending what they considered "Sunni" territory.

How can you possibly blame the poor muslims for sectarian violence and ethnic cleansing, don't you know the US is 110% responsable? They were literally forced to slaughter each other while calling on their religion and god as justifications (obviously merely as a form of exploitation, all their tribal and religious leaders are cynics who don't really entertain any of these notions beyond what it can do for them politically, only an islamophobe would suggest otherwise). Anyways, it's all obviously a long term plan by the US and their Israeli puppet masters to plunge the middle east into chaos and make muslims suffer, all of this was foreseen and expected, encouraged by the crusaders and zionists every step of the way. The muslims are merely victims, as they always are. 
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Tibe on November 21, 2015, 09:52:51 pm
Are you going to calm down any time soon Oberyn? You have been in this angry forum crusademode for some time now.  :lol:
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Grytviken on November 21, 2015, 09:53:16 pm
How can you possibly blame the poor muslims for sectarian violence and ethnic cleansing, don't you know the US is 110% responsable? They were literally forced to slaughter each other while calling on their religion and god as justifications (obviously merely as a form of exploitation, all their tribal and religious leaders are cynics who don't really entertain any of these notions beyond what it can do for them politically, only an islamophobe would suggest otherwise). Anyways, it's all obviously a long term plan by the US and their Israeli puppet masters to plunge the middle east into chaos and make muslims suffer, all of this was foreseen and expected, encouraged by the crusaders and zionists every step of the way. The muslims are merely victims, as they always are.

 All the bleeding heart left-wing traitors here are trying to recreate the same pathetic scene we saw in Europe with the #RefugeesWelcome bullshit. The ONLY refugees at risk are the Syrian Christians who are forced to live with Muslims in these large European refugee camps who are being assaulted/raped/robbed by Muslims and are too afraid to go to the authorities because they will risk losing their asylum status. The left-wing nuts here are acting like the Muslim refugees are going to starve to death in Germany and Sweden..
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Oberyn on November 21, 2015, 10:07:07 pm
Are you going to calm down any time soon Oberyn? You have been in this angry forum crusademode for some time now.  :lol:

http://takimag.com/article/give_hate_a_chance_gavin_mcinnes#axzz3s99e2z9f

He's absolutely right. The abject submission of my countrymen to kumbayaa delusions is sickening, not to mention the completely expected rationalizations of "french" muslims. Bunch of weak-kneed bundle of stickss. The sort of reaction that cunts like Heskey are proud of. Hate breeds hate, unless that hate is directed at western europeans, in which case all it breeds is shame and guilt and endless excuses for why that hate is perfectly normal and rational. This country is fucked, time to learn polish and get out. We deserve everything that is coming.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Grytviken on November 21, 2015, 10:13:35 pm
http://takimag.com/article/give_hate_a_chance_gavin_mcinnes#axzz3s99e2z9f

He's absolutely right. The abject submission of my countrymen to kumbayaa delusions is sickening, not to mention the completely expected rationalizations of "french" muslims. Bunch of weak-kneed bundle of stickss. The sort of reaction that cunts like Heskey are proud of. Hate breeds hate, unless that hate is directed at western europeans, in which case all it breeds is shame and guilt and endless excuses for why that hate is perfectly normal and rational. This country is fucked, time to learn polish and get out. We deserve everything that is coming.

 It's also this same kind of kumbayaa doctrine Obama has forced upon our military leaders that allows ISIS to survive. Don't want to bomb their supply and logistics centers because it will have an adverse effect on the civilian population under their control etc. All bullshit. Until they can learn to separate religion from politics they deserve to get buttfucked by Putin and Assad. Is it right? no. Is it probably the only immediate solution to this madness? Yes.
 
  Putin is offering us a liability free solution to the problem. Unguided massive indiscriminate bombing, you can't get any more multi-cultural than that. The Kurds are capturing ISIS territory and the populace loyal to them simply flees to Europe, and then people wonder why there are terrorist threats etc. It's a big joke.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Tibe on November 21, 2015, 10:36:26 pm
  Putin is offering us a liability free solution to the problem. Unguided massive indiscriminate bombing, you can't get any more multi-cultural than that.

Things in Russia work differently than they do in the US. Unlike US, where you basically get shit from everyone including your own people for bombing anything, to the point that any politician related to those events has a deadline in his political career. The Russian government does not have that issue. It practically has the power to shut everybody up in their own country forcefully and not suffer for it at all. This actually allows them to have significantly more free hands to basically bomb everything and claim anything.

To be honest I think it would be quite wise to let Russia loose in the Middle-East. They could finally act out their powerfantasies, the patriots get to jack off on the exploding motherlands bombs videos and ontop of that ISIS gets fucked. And even if they fuck up big time, this time they couldnt pin it on the West.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Grytviken on November 21, 2015, 10:50:48 pm
Things in Russia work differently than they do in the US. Unlike US, where you basically get shit from everyone including your own people for bombing anything, to the point that any politician related to those events has a deadline in his political career. The Russian government does not have that issue. It practically has the power to shut everybody up in their own country forcefully and not suffer for it at all. This actually allows them to have significantly more free hands to basically bomb everything and claim anything.

To be honest I think it would be quite wise to let Russia loose in the Middle-East. They could finally act out their powerfantasies, the patriots get to jack off on the exploding motherlands bombs videos and ontop of that ISIS gets fucked. And even if they fuck up big time, this time they couldnt pin it on the West.

  Kurdish women have been doing all the fighting so far and are beating ISIS soundly with western air support, although progress is slow. The only people who deserve anything out of this conflict IMO are the Kurds. If anything good is to come out of this conflict it will be a Kurdish national state. The local Muslim states in the area have a combined military of over 8 million and they refuse to fight ISIS and denounce their perception of Islam. If Putin would come aboard on this issue he would have alot more support.

 Since the Turks don't feel inclined to use their military for any good purpose, they should cede some of their territory to these Kurdish women warriors, as a debt for keeping the hostile expansion of ISIS in check.

 Also since ISIS has personally messed with Putin, I could care less what he does to get the job done, he could bomb the Egyptian Pyramids for all I care, he should be free to take whatever action he deems necessary to avenge his countrymen. Other Muslim states have had years to intervene on their behalf to show the world that they can control their own and have failed miserably.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Butan on November 21, 2015, 11:11:39 pm
The left-wing nuts here are acting like the Muslim refugees are going to starve to death in Germany and Sweden..

Refugee life is not really the pimp life either. Also muslim refugees are refugees first.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Leshma on November 22, 2015, 12:04:42 am
The only people who deserve anything out of this conflict IMO are the Kurds.

It's not about who deserves what but who's willing to accept certain propositions. There is a reason Turkey exist today in this shape and form. They are useful American ally for decades, if they weren't country would be split into many different national states (joke is on those who believe their Turkey is strong enough to fight USA, NATO or even Russia). Kurds are too much socialist for American taste and will never get their support, much like Armenians.

Edit: This is useful article to get some perspective on Kurdish issue - http://peacemagazine.org/archive/v08n2p19.htm

I especially like this quote:

Quote
There are no permanent friends or enemies, only permanent U.S. interests.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Angantyr on November 22, 2015, 12:14:37 am
A slight sidetrack but it was quite the sight to see Kurds walk in Pegida rallies in Dresden.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Leshma on November 22, 2015, 12:17:56 am
Why is that strange? Same as with Jews, they are at war with muslim countries for decades. Of course they'll be very vocal and side with those who oppose muslims.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Angantyr on November 22, 2015, 12:25:20 am
I don't find it strange, I applaud it.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Grytviken on November 22, 2015, 12:36:49 am
It's not about who deserves what but who's willing to accept certain propositions. There is a reason Turkey exist today in this shape and form. They are useful American ally for decades, if they weren't country would be split into many different national states (joke is on those who believe their Turkey is strong enough to fight USA, NATO or even Russia). Kurds are too much socialist for American taste and will never get their support, much like Armenians.

Edit: This is useful article to get some perspective on Kurdish issue - http://peacemagazine.org/archive/v08n2p19.htm

I especially like this quote:

 Yea it's a very complex problem. Iraq doesn't want to cede territory to them either. If they aren't given a totally independent state hopefully the Iraqi government will accept them running an autonomous state much like the Hong Kong special administration district, with it's own separate laws and leaders and military.

  Since the Kurds don't officially have their own nation it is very difficult to directly support them or their cause, hopefully this time will be different because I don't think Iraq will have a choice other than to recognize their state. The concern is that if Iraq loses large sections of their territory to ethnic/religious partitions the rest of Iraq will get swallowed up as well from outside influence.

 Also the US will never fight Turkey. They are viewed as the only model state for any Muslim country in the area compared to others. The obvious diplomatic problems a Kurdish state will cause will be opposed by Turkey ofc. Early into the Iraq conflict Turkey offered the US to send troops into specific areas of Iraq (all Kurdish areas) and their offer was declined.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Angantyr on November 22, 2015, 10:13:51 pm
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Some of our current cultural dispositions are food for thought in regards to Nietzche's master\slave morality.

The slave morality of the kind, meek, weak, self-denying and Christian downtrodden human morality, in contrast to the healthy, living master morality, where fullness of life, self-expression, pride, strength and nobility are the highest values.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Leshma on November 23, 2015, 03:00:26 pm
I hear these days that ISIS is packing and moving to a new place. Balkans they say, to start new caliphate here. Our European friends seem to be happy supporting idea of migration as long its not in their backyards which translates into "refugees may come to south-eastern Europe but must stay there". Balkan based ISIL caliphate makes sense, kinda.
Title: Re: Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?
Post by: Falka on November 24, 2015, 11:38:56 am
Quote
Turkey downs Russian warplane near Syria border
 
Turkish military official says fighter jets destroyed plane after it violated country’s airspace, which Russia denies

Turks, are you mad?