Is the conflict in Syria turning into a proxy war?

[ecorcheur_brokar]

Let's compare disease and biological immunizes in the 1600's and 1700's to 20th century genocide. Why don't we bring Ghengis Khan into this while we are at it lmao.

  Who is mass bombing civilians to prevent genocide?

Yeah surely the genocide of native indians were just an incident... Anyway, that's not the topic and Western colonial empires killed more than Japan without bringing native indians.

War on Japan: Two atomic bombs on cities, plus 900'000 civil killed by firebombing directly aimed at cities. For only 100'000 soldiers killed.
Korean war: 635 tons of bombs including 32'000 tons of napalm. All major city in north Korea were almost completely erased.

(click to show/hide)

"As a result, almost every substantial building in North Korea was destroyed.[293][294] The war's highest-ranking American POW, U.S. Major General William F. Dean,[295] reported that most of the North Korean cities and villages he saw were either rubble or snow-covered wastelands.[296][297] North Korean factories, schools, hospitals, and government offices were forced to move underground, and air defenses were "virtually non-existent."[292] In November 1950, the North Korean leadership instructed their population to build dugouts and mud huts, as well as dig underground tunnels, in order to solve the acute housing problem.[298] U.S. Air Force General Curtis LeMay commented, "we went over there and fought the war and eventually burned down every town in North Korea anyway, some way or another, and some in South Korea, too."[299] Pyongyang, which saw 75 percent of its area destroyed, was so devastated that bombing was halted as there were no longer any worthy targets.[300][301] On November 28, Bomber Command reported on the campaign's progress: 95 percent of Manpojin was destroyed, along with 90 percent of Hoeryong, Namsi and Koindong, 85 percent of Chosan, 75 percent of both Sakchu and Huichon, and 20 percent of Uiju." Wiki

Vietnam war: Napalm bomb and dumb bomb were used massively,  7,662,000 tons were dropped on Vietnam and Cambodgia. Between 627,000 and 2,000,000 civilian were killed during the Vietnam war.

I can not consider so many civil victims a success.

[Murmillus_Prime]

International laws and norms, especially when embodied in the UN, have always been laughably impotent and useless. You're the one living in a fantasy if you think we're "returning" to the "laws of the jungle", aka realpolitiks. It never, ever left. You're also retarded if you think any of the main players are "honest" in any of the high-minded, morally sanctioned bullshit they put out on a regular basis. Take the gigantic wooden plank out of your own fucking eye before calling others blind, lol Russian establishment is "honest" about it's motives, go fuck yourself you dumb prick. Poor wittle Russia trying to follow international laws out of good faith, unlike those evil NATO imperialists merely exploiting them for their own ends, god you are a hypocritical moron.

This destabilization in the middle east supposedly caused by NATO meddling won't end until all the wahhabist and salafist bleeding sores all over the muslim world are finally drained of their life giving fluids, i.e their natural resources. Best course of action is to make them obsolete through technology, as much as possible. Where you and I differ is that you think that NATO and the US specifically is the one pulling the strings, the ones who have the Gulf states as outright puppets in their grand machinations. I see them as powerful political entities in their own right, with their own goals and enemies. The world economy is dependent on a steady, continously stable world market for oil and gas for...well, everything. The whole delicate, ephemereal web of economic exchanges crumbles without it. Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states, and indirectly OPEC through it, have disproportionate political and diplomatic power for only one reason. They have absolutely nothing at all to offer to the world except that one thing. They're the "dealers" and the rest of the developped world are the junkies. Just look at when interests of NATO and interests of these wahhabist bundle of stickss clash, who is it that gives way? Who has more to gain from the "alliance"? These backwards cunts are holding the entire world economy hostage, something that was made clear as long ago as the 70's, when this "alliance" first started gaining real traction.

I've never called the Russian establishment angels, but they've stated their motives and their motives are transparent and backed by its actions. Cite one example where this is NOT the case. I'll take the plank out of my arse when you can give me one good reason to do so. I'm not a hypocrite in this respect. In another, everyone is including yourself. By the way, I agree with you on the U.N it is useless impotent and inconsistent and when I talk about honesty I'm talking about stated goals and motives being consistent with their actions and Russia's actions are consistent with their stated motives where as the Wests are not.

It's a bit rich for you to call me a dumb prick without adequately refuting my points and merely stating what I already know to be. In-fact your aggressive tone implies you're the one with the plank up his arse. (Probably a Russian plank.) So maybe you should remove your plank first, that is unless you enjoy it and in that case what ever floats your boat brah.

Now that I've destroyed your futile rebuke without needing to replicate your aggressive belligerent tone, I think it's fair to say.. I win.

[Paul]

To summarise. We have some posters on this thread who are proponents and apologists of the Western imperialism and Western backed insurgencies that have directly and indirectly led to the destabilisation of whole regions in the world, which has been directly and indirectly responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of civilians and destruction of their nations. Western imperialism that's propped up and aligned itself with brutal dictatorships... Apparently all because they are militarily engaging brutal dictatorships either not aligned with the West or aligned with Russia.

These posters don't seem to understand or want to acknowledge the consequences behind our governments direct and indirect actions and instead run off on emotional hypothesis' or repeat propagandised points repeated by our mainstream media to excuse their support of insurgents and brutal dictatorial regimes our governments are aligned with and assist. This is regardless of our governments poor track record and history of failure in this area and their repeated breaches of international law and the amount of national treasure and human lives wasted on these endeavours, when this money could have been better spent.

National interest and war are dirty games to be played, at least the Russian establishment is honest when discussing its motives behind its actions and at least the Russian establishment have made attempts to comply with international law when NATO states pretend it doesn't exist when they want, and then cite international law when it suits them. Like the U.S's recent criticism of the Chinese government's actions in the South China Sea for example.

The validity and legitimacy of international laws and norms are made or broken depending on the consistency on which they're applied. If the most powerful and military aggressive nation and alliance on earth are not subject to the application of these laws, (The U.S/NATO) then nations like Russia and China will not longer be subject to them either, and we can  all then return to the laws of the jungle and the U.N like the League of Nations will be consigned to history.

Fifty cent well earned.

[Oberyn]

Ukraine is probably the most salient example. You realize all the russian state owned media have claimed a bewildering amount of different, often contradictory reasons for their actions there? From the typical "They are chocolate chip cookies racist trying to exterminate russians", to geopolitical and military arguements for russian access to the black sea, to irrenditist claims that the land is and always has been russian, that Ukraine and ukrainian are artificially constructed identities fomented by evil West to destroy Russia, to etc, etc, all parroted from government officials as well. If the constant and repeated refusal to even aknowledge they were even doing anything there at all wasn't a hint. Tell me Murm, you still think russian army isn't involved? After all, clear and transparent honest russian government said so. You stupid fucking troll.
You are a hypocrite, there are absolutely no major players on the planet that are "clear and transparent" about their actions, especially not Russia. The resources and bureaucracy they put into controlling their own media should make that obvious, but you are a wilfully blind idiot cunt. Fucking KGB propaganda expert is literally their unelected dictator for life, but yeah brah I'm sure the russian government is on the up and up.

[Xant]

To summarise. We have some posters on this thread who are proponents and apologists of the Western imperialism and Western backed insurgencies that have directly and indirectly led to the destabilisation of whole regions in the world, which has been directly and indirectly responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of civilians and destruction of their nations. Western imperialism that's propped up and aligned itself with brutal dictatorships... Apparently all because they are militarily engaging brutal dictatorships either not aligned with the West or aligned with Russia.

These posters don't seem to understand or want to acknowledge the consequences behind our governments direct and indirect actions and instead run off on emotional hypothesis' or repeat propagandised points repeated by our mainstream media to excuse their support of insurgents and brutal dictatorial regimes our governments are aligned with and assist. This is regardless of our governments poor track record and history of failure in this area and their repeated breaches of international law and the amount of national treasure and human lives wasted on these endeavours, when this money could have been better spent.

National interest and war are dirty games to be played, at least the Russian establishment is honest when discussing its motives behind its actions and at least the Russian establishment have made attempts to comply with international law when NATO states pretend it doesn't exist when they want, and then cite international law when it suits them. Like the U.S's recent criticism of the Chinese government's actions in the South China Sea for example.

The validity and legitimacy of international laws and norms are made or broken depending on the consistency on which they're applied. If the most powerful and military aggressive nation and alliance on earth are not subject to the application of these laws, (The U.S/NATO) then nations like Russia and China will not longer be subject to them either, and we can  all then return to the laws of the jungle and the U.N like the League of Nations will be consigned to history.

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[Grytviken]

Yeah surely the genocide of native indians were just an incident... Anyway, that's not the topic and Western colonial empires killed more than Japan without bringing native indians.

War on Japan: Two atomic bombs on cities, plus 900'000 civil killed by firebombing directly aimed at cities. For only 100'000 soldiers killed.
Korean war: 635 tons of bombs including 32'000 tons of napalm. All major city in north Korea were almost completely erased.

(click to show/hide)

"As a result, almost every substantial building in North Korea was destroyed.[293][294] The war's highest-ranking American POW, U.S. Major General William F. Dean,[295] reported that most of the North Korean cities and villages he saw were either rubble or snow-covered wastelands.[296][297] North Korean factories, schools, hospitals, and government offices were forced to move underground, and air defenses were "virtually non-existent."[292] In November 1950, the North Korean leadership instructed their population to build dugouts and mud huts, as well as dig underground tunnels, in order to solve the acute housing problem.[298] U.S. Air Force General Curtis LeMay commented, "we went over there and fought the war and eventually burned down every town in North Korea anyway, some way or another, and some in South Korea, too."[299] Pyongyang, which saw 75 percent of its area destroyed, was so devastated that bombing was halted as there were no longer any worthy targets.[300][301] On November 28, Bomber Command reported on the campaign's progress: 95 percent of Manpojin was destroyed, along with 90 percent of Hoeryong, Namsi and Koindong, 85 percent of Chosan, 75 percent of both Sakchu and Huichon, and 20 percent of Uiju." Wiki

Vietnam war: Napalm bomb and dumb bomb were used massively,  7,662,000 tons were dropped on Vietnam and Cambodgia. Between 627,000 and 2,000,000 civilian were killed during the Vietnam war.

I can not consider so many civil victims a success.

Industry, depots, railroads, airports, ports, infrastructure are fair game during war. Japan wanted to fight an unconventional war with us from the start by attacking before declaring war. In Korea 1.3 million Chinese launched a major offensive and much of the country was destroyed dislodging them. In Vietnam the war was sporadic and everywhere, there were no front lines.

[Murmillus_Prime]

Ukraine is probably the most salient example. You realize all the russian state owned media have claimed a bewildering amount of different, often contradictory reasons for their actions there? From the typical "They are chocolate chip cookies racist trying to exterminate russians", to geopolitical and military arguements for russian access to the black sea, to irrenditist claims that the land is and always has been russian, that Ukraine and ukrainian are artificially constructed identities fomented by evil West to destroy Russia, to etc, etc, all parroted from government officials as well. If the constant and repeated refusal to even aknowledge they were even doing anything there at all wasn't a hint. Tell me Murm, you still think russian army isn't involved? After all, clear and transparent honest russian government said so. You stupid fucking troll.
You are a hypocrite, there are absolutely no major players on the planet that are "clear and transparent" about their actions, especially not Russia. The resources and bureaucracy they put into controlling their own media should make that obvious, but you are a wilfully blind idiot cunt. Fucking KGB propaganda expert is literally their unelected dictator for life, but yeah brah I'm sure the russian government is on the up and up.

Ah I thought you had that old bone lurking in your verbal garbage.

The Russian establishment considered the Western backed undemocratic overthrow of the Ukrainian government in 2014 its red line being crossed, it considered NATO advancing once again right up towards Russia's border and so the Russian establishment acted accordingly. So they stated their perspective/outlook and then acted on it. That's honesty. You can't distinguish between states motives/intentions and actions can you? Russia has not at an official capacity been involved in Ukraine. You can't refute this statement because it's true. I honestly believe the Russian state has been involved in assisting the separatists but again that's not the same as an officially government mandated action using conventional forces, as they had done so in Georgia in response to the Georgian governments aggression towards the breakaway regions there.

Then we take Syria into consideration. Russia have stated they are targeting terrorists, extremists. The Russian establishment have openly attempted try to co-ordinate with the West and has purportedly even offered to assist the so called moderate opposition in their fight against ISIS but before Russia can even try to help it must first know who the moderate opposition are.. The West who've been throwing arms and money into the conflict since day one have failed to even state who or where the moderate opposition are and exist. From this response Russia's deduced that the Al-Qaeda linked rebels as well as IS are fair game. So again Russia has stated a position and then acted upon it at a level of transparency the West have failed to replicate even in the U.S with America's supposed most transparent president ever.. (So said Obama..)..

[Grytviken]

So again Russia has stated a position and then acted upon it at a level of transparency the West have failed to replicate even in the U.S with America's supposed most transparent president ever.. (So said Obama..)..

  The only thing transparent about Russian intervention is that they are flying air support directly for Assad's ground forces targeting positions that are well-known to be manned by moderate opposition forces, not terrorist groups. Russia is not acting as a mutual beneficiary for the region. The coalition, Iraqi Army and Kurdish forces have already thwarted ISIS movement and expansion, they know exactly where they are, and know exactly what Russia is up to. 

 Saying and doing are two completely different things, Russia is known for saying alot of things and doing the opposite. Russia's definition of a terrorist is anyone who opposed the Assad regime.

  Why would we share intel with Russians when they are not willing to join with the 80 other countries who already have a well-established coalition that has kept ISIS in check?

[Tibe]

It's a bit rich for you to call me a dumb prick without adequately refuting my points....

...Its just not worth it man. You are like Tovi all over again.

[Grytviken]

...Its just not worth it man. You are like Tovi all over again.

 It doesn't take a  genius to know that all the Russian info is pure propaganda. We have satellite imagery proving they are not bombing ISIS positions, after realizing this they changed their tune and recognized the FSA and offered their help lol.

[Oberyn]

So when the russian government lies and misrepresents and obfuscates, it's completely different and understandable, because only an idiot could take their statements at face value. Basically you expect Russia to do this and find it completely understandable. Don't worry, so does everyone else on the planet. The whole point is that their stated declarations and intentions don't match up with their actions. That is practically the definition of dishonesty, and yes it's common in international politics, holy mother Russia and glorious Leader Putin are not exempt.

[Grytviken]

Things couldn't have gone worse for Russian interests in the region. Assad was about to capitulate, his front lines in the capital Damascus were on the verge of collapsing, ISIS is already disintegrating from an Iraqi Army and Kurdish offensive supported by coalition airstrikes. They put their stake in to try and establish a perimeter of control to prop up Assad in the hopes of more legitimacy for Assad if it comes down to a diplomatic settlement in the region. They desperately want to create leverage for the Assad regime to protect their own interests.

  Now they realize this was probably a dumb move that requires much more investment then they were willing to put in, and are slowly rewinding all their lies.

[Oberyn]

I actually tend to agree that in this case Assad is vastly better than the alternative. Even the US has stopped pretending there is such a thing as a sizeable or influential "moderate" group. This is one brutal dictator I think the West should've continued to tolerate. And it's apparently one brutal dictator Murm is completely fine with being supported by outside influence. I'm sure Murm wouldn't have been masturbating about how Assad is nothing but a western puppet opressing his own people a few years ago when that's what Assad still was. Please Murm, tell me more about how when the evil, evil west supports dictators it's because they're literally jacking off Satan, but when noble Russia does it its because it is the best and most rational decision and is never, ever wreathed in a bunch of bullshit propaganda and moral justifications.

[Vovka]

  The only thing transparent about Russian intervention is that they are flying air support directly for Assad's ground forces targeting positions that are well-known to be manned by moderate opposition forces, not terrorist groups. Russia is not acting as a mutual beneficiary for the region. The coalition, Iraqi Army and Kurdish forces have already thwarted ISIS movement and expansion, they know exactly where they are, and know exactly what Russia is up to. 
 Saying and doing are two completely different things, Russia is known for saying alot of things and doing the opposite. Russia's definition of a terrorist is anyone who opposed the Assad regime.
  Why would we share intel with Russians when they are not willing to join with the 80 other countries who already have a well-established coalition that has kept ISIS in check?

Its like moderate chechen separatist who took hostage pregnant women and children for the sake of prevailing the democracy.

[Xant]

Where did he find the pregnant children?